Metro Jacksonville

Quote“We always had to scrape the money together, and it’s still always tough to come up with that money for Amtrak because there are Amtrak haters out there, people who don’t like it.”
Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.) came to mind.

“He’s coming around. He supported Amtrak funding the last time around, and he was one of the ‘big four’ that came up with the reauthorization. His issue in there was he wanted to privatize high-speed rail. He probably could have done that if [Sen. John] McCain (R-Ariz.) had won” the Presidency, but “he’s not going to get support out of the new Obama FRA to privatize that line. He basically wanted to privatize the Northeast Corridor and have Amtrak privatized, have a private company take that over.”

He recalled that Mica had supported the commuter rail notion for Central Florida.
“He’s not as hard-lined anymore; in fact, he has even supported Amtrak running SunRail… I think he realized too that you can’t not give an agency a legitimate budget and then complain that they are not operating correctly. No public transportation pays for itself, so you have to subsidize.”

Returning to Amtrak and trains along the Gulf Coast, he said, “Any rational person would say, ‘We need to address some of the issues with the costs on the long lines, â€" the Sunset Limited, when we get that back â€" and, of course, running the whole way to L.A. Those prices are really expensive and there are flights that are cheaper, but you have to think of the system holistically, and I think that’s the way the Congresswoman and a lot of people do.”

The Sunset may not return, but there is movement to bring passenger rail service from New Orleans to Jacksonville and on to Orlando.

“No question. The Congresswoman would kill them if they didn’t. That’s ideal. It is expensive and the problem that we’re facing now is that states have to be partners in this system to maintain the things and do that instead of ‘Look, we’ve got no money. The federal government wants us, they need to do it.’
Martinelli  said “They presented a couple of options. Amtrak isn’t even love with running that Sunset Limited line because it’s expensive for them, so they weren’t going to kill themselves to rebuild the line, but CSX was up in a year, had the system up and going. That’s something we’re going to have to pressure Amtrak [on].”

Tomorrow: Commuter rail for Jacksonville, and more

http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d3-Amtrak-funding-is-still-in-the-hopper

I was having a couple rounds in a pub with friends tonight, and part of the conversation became about Amtrak travel. I ended up being the only person with any experience outside of the NEC.

As soon as Jacksonville to New Orleans was mentioned I became a tour guide through recent history, including Amtrak, JAX, CSX, Katrina, and loose talk about stations (or depots) being out in the middle of nowhere (like our SAV).

It was disappointing to those listening there is no longer E/W service between the two cities, AND the location of the Jacksonville Amtrak station is neither downtown or near the airport. I tried to instill hope to them there was a chance this could all change.

Nobody hated Amtrak, they just didn't know anything about it, or what it might take to improve it.

Quote from: WeeklyJoe on September 04, 2009, 04:32:28 AM
I was having a couple rounds in a pub with friends tonight, and part of the conversation became about Amtrak travel. I ended up being the only person with any experience outside of the NEC.

As soon as Jacksonville to New Orleans was mentioned I became a tour guide through recent history, including Amtrak, JAX, CSX, Katrina, and loose talk about stations (or depots) being out in the middle of nowhere (like our SAV).

It was disappointing to those listening there is no longer E/W service between the two cities, AND the location of the Jacksonville Amtrak station is neither downtown or near the airport. I tried to instill hope to them there was a chance this could all change.

Nobody hated Amtrak, they just didn't know anything about it, or what it might take to improve it.

Exactly. That makes it even worse when Congressman John Mica, through whose district the Amtrak commuter rail Jax to Miami would run, is such an Amtrak hater. Some congressmen are just too detached from the people's interest and persist in their almost exclusive focus on corporate interests.

Amtrak heter, now that's a new one.

I never thought Amtrak was that bad that "Amtrak Haters" are lurking in the forum and out in the public.  Alright all you "Amtrak Haters," come OUT of the closet!

Heights Unknown

(http://www.trainweb.org/amtrakflorida/Pictures/Amtrak%20Picture%20Page/Large%20Images/Motives/Amtrak%20P-42%20Locomotive%20103-SPG-070705.JPG)
To make this come true, all we need is to rebuild Jacksonville Terminal, and add the RDC to Gainesville.

Quoteauthor=FayeforCure link=topic=6013.msg95182#msg95182 date=1252070743]
Exactly. That makes it even worse when Congressman John Mica, through whose district the Amtrak commuter rail Jax to Miami would run, is such an Amtrak hater. Some congressmen are just too detached from the people's interest and persist in their almost exclusive focus on corporate interests.

Seems to me your focus is hating Mica, much more then it is about helping Amtrak. Every single post without regard to subject matter somehow ends in attempted character assassination.

How did I meet him? I was upset at the Republican Speak in his first campaign about Amtrak and rail in general. Called his office and within a day or two, we spent a rather intense hour with AMTRAK 101. Over the next few weeks we met again and again, and I laid out a concept that I called "Central Florida Commuter Rail." The idea of a private Amtrak, isn't so radical either, having been done throughout Europe, in fact Virgin and Air France are both involved. There is a theory that turning the equipment over to the railroads and giving them tax relief to the extent that we "make an offer that can't be refused", would probably do the trick. At least for now, we have Mica on TEAM FLORIDA. At least he understands the subject matter.

There will be NO AMTRAK COMMUTER RAIL JAX TO MIAMI, we are to gain two train splits in Jacksonville, which will result in the Meteor and Star, sending half of their LONG DISTANCE NYC-MIA equipment down the Florida East Coast and the other half to Tampa. If successful, this could grow into a PUSH-PULL CORRIDOR service at some distant date in the future. Meanwhile two arrivals and two departures daily hardly makes for a "commuter rail plan." Even worse for Jacksonville, unless Amtrak is willing to split up the back to back morning southbound and evening northbound trains, then BOTH of these will arrive NORTHBOUND in the afternoon or evening, and SOUTHBOUND in the morning. This schedule is unlikely to inspire a single passenger from St. Augustine to Jacksonville, with long-distance fares, and running counter flow of our commuters.

If Jacksonville, REALLY wants to be a player in corridor service, or commuter rail, now is the time to speak up. We need a JTA-CITIZENS COMMITTEE to make a plan for corridor schedules that at least give us some traffic relief. The proposed "Gulf Wind" (Sunset) schedule is nearly perfect for Jacksonville commuters, but without stations at Baldwin, and/or Macclenny, the closest place to board will be Lake City. Gainesville is another golden opportunity being ignored.

Faye, (or anyone else) if there are more posts to come, where you are not clear on the subject, just send me a PM and I will do my best to give you answers.  


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 04, 2009, 12:29:55 PM

Quoteauthor=FayeforCure link=topic=6013.msg95182#msg95182 date=1252070743]
Exactly. That makes it even worse when Congressman John Mica, through whose district the Amtrak commuter rail Jax to Miami would run, is such an Amtrak hater. Some congressmen are just too detached from the people's interest and persist in their almost exclusive focus on corporate interests.

Seems to me your focus is hating Mica, much more then it is about helping Amtrak. Every single post without regard to subject matter somehow ends in attempted character assassination.

How did I meet him? I was upset at the Republican Speak in his first campaign about Amtrak and rail in general. Called his office and within a day or two, we spent a rather intense hour with AMTRAK 101. If Jacksonville, REALLY wants to be a player in corridor service, or commuter rail, now is the time to speak up. We need a JTA-CITIZENS COMMITTEE to make a plan for corridor schedules that at least give us some traffic relief. The proposed "Gulf Wind" (Sunset) schedule is nearly perfect for Jacksonville commuters, but without stations at Baldwin, and/or Macclenny, the closest place to board will be Lake City. Gainesville is another golden opportunity being ignored.

Ock, I'm simply posting an article that was published yesterday. We all want Amtrak to operate a Jax Miami service. Despite your Amtrak 101 with Mica, back in the early nineties, he has consitently voted to cut Amtrak funding. To starve Amtrak, so it would be an easy target for privatization.

The article rightly states: "you can’t not give an agency a legitimate budget and then complain that they are not operating correctly"

On your second statement I agree: We need schedules that work for commuters.

Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2009, 02:55:14 PM
Faye is this true?

Unfortunately it is.

Before he was the minority leader on the Transportation committee, he said this:

QuoteMica, a member of the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure's Subcommittee on Railroads, is well-known for being an opponent of government assistance to Amtrak. Mica has said, "Amtrak needs major surgery and reorganization" and "Amtrak is not just broken, it is actually bankrupt." [1]

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Mica

Only once ( in all 17 years in Congress) did he vote for an Amtrak funding increase,.......when he was able to get the bill to include a provision that would lead to the replacement of the Acela ( one of Amtrak's most profitable lines) by private industry run HSR.

QuoteMica himself has been a longtime critic of Amtrak. But approval from a critic gives of the indication that the bill may have some potential.

There are some differences in both bills. Under the House bill, the Department of Transportation would have to seek proposals from companies to create a high-speed service. Mica highly supports the idea and says it is a good way for the United States to catch up with both Europe and Asia. Under this plan, one could get from New York to Washington DC in under two hours.

http://www.groundreport.com/US/Amtrak-Bill-Passes-Through-the-US-House-and-US-Sen

Maybe he's an opponent of "Amtrak-as-it-is" (understandable) and a supporter of "Amtrak-as-it-could-be".  I'm not a supporter of Amshacks and 18 hours behind schedule either.

The Federal Government, States and local governments pumped billions of dollars into airport development to stimulate economic growth.  Billions were spent on Interstates.  Now that those projects are completed, it's time to put money into our rail infrastructure FOR THE SAME REASONS.

Mica just spent 17 million to help upgrade the Auto-Train station in Stanford. Jax will get money as well for upgrades to the box it calls a station up on OKH. I'd hardly call Mica an Amtrak Hater.

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 05, 2009, 09:26:03 AM
Mica just spent 17 million to help upgrade the Auto-Train station in Stanford. Jax will get money as well for upgrades to the box it calls a station up on OKH. I'd hardly call Mica an Amtrak Hater.

Correction: Amtrak ie. the Taxpayers spent money ( $10.5 million) to upgrade the Auto-Train station in Sanford. All Mica did was ANNOUNCE that Amtrak was going to do this.

Mica did secure $750,000 "for design and construction of improved access roads to the Sanford Amtrak Auto Train Station. Phase I of the project will support roadway enhancements, including widening of Persimmon Avenue to three lanes, improved signage and traffic signals."

That's a road earmark. He is good at that.

http://blogs.news-journalonline.com/politics/2009/07/mica-secures-sanford-auto-trai.html

I admit, the media reporting is ( intentionally?) misleading.

Quote from: Dog Walker on September 04, 2009, 04:02:31 PM
Maybe he's an opponent of "Amtrak-as-it-is" (understandable) and a supporter of "Amtrak-as-it-could-be".  I'm not a supporter of Amshacks and 18 hours behind schedule either.

The Federal Government, States and local governments pumped billions of dollars into airport development to stimulate economic growth.  Billions were spent on Interstates.  Now that those projects are completed, it's time to put money into our rail infrastructure FOR THE SAME REASONS.

I whole-heartedly agree with your second paragraph. Why has it always been ok to "subsidize" roads and airports, but not rail?

On you first statement,........I wish it was true. John Mica's statement "Amtrak is not just broken, it is actually bankrupt" isn't as innoculous as you put it.

Turns out John Mica did an interview on C-span in 2005 where he openly talked about dismantling Amtrak. Several bloggers reported this at that time. Unfortunately I have trouble accessing C-Span archives, but you are welcome to do your own search.

BTW, starving Amtrak is in keeping with an overall Republican strategy of starving government of revenue ( taxes), so as to not only shrink government, but to also undermine its effectiveness. Having had a hand in undermining a government program's effectiveness and then calling for its dismantling "because of its ineffectiveness" is a well-known political strategy.

As the article starting this thread correctly states:

Quoteyou can’t not give an agency a legitimate budget and then complain that they are not operating correctly.

So Mica does not like Amtrak and his opponents don't like the projects he supports (ex. Orlando commuter rail).  So what should we do with this information?

I would venture a guess that we are all supposed to hate Mica, without regards to his support or lack of support of ANY issue. It has been made painfully clear that if Faye, could walk on water, Mica, would be accused of tickling her feet. Not a chance of bipartisanship on any issue. Oh the humanity!

OCKLAWAHA

Of course there is.  This nothing new.  So should we be doing with this information is my question?

Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 02:10:53 PM
There is a record though.

Yes, you can have megavote send you updates automatically. For example, here is the latest Megavote update of 8/3/2009:

QuoteRecent House Votes
Department of Defense Appropriations Act, 2010 - Vote Passed (400-30, 3 Not Voting)

On Thursday, the House approved this $636.3 billion bill funding the Department of Defense.

Rep. John Mica voted YES......send e-mail or see bio


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Food Safety Enhancement Act of 2009 - Vote Passed (283-142, 8 Not Voting)

The House passed this food safety legislation, which would give the FDA more oversight and expand its role in inspections.

Rep. John Mica voted NO......send e-mail or see bio


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supplemental appropriations for fiscal year 2009 for the Consumer Assistance to Recycle and Save Program - Vote Passed (316-109, 2 Present, 6 Not Voting)

The House approved an additional $2 billion for the “Cash for Clunkers” program, which had run out of funds.

Rep. John Mica voted NO......send e-mail or see bio


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Corporate and Financial Institution Compensation Fairness Act - Vote Passed (237-185, 11 Not Voting)

The House passed this bill that intends to provide shareholders with an advisory vote on executive compensation and to prevent certain incentives in the compensation practices of financial institutions.

Rep. John Mica voted NO......send e-mail or see bio

Sign up at http://www.congress.org for your own megavote updates.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 01:46:09 PM
So Mica does not like Amtrak and his opponents don't like the projects he supports (ex. Orlando commuter rail).  So what should we do with this information?

I would have supported the Orlando Commuter Rail had it been reworked, which is what I expect will be happening next.

My concerns were shared by many:

Quote
The liability issues and stuff like that,............ there were some concerns expressed about the way it was set up and what CSX was getting out of the deal.

http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d4-Commuter-rail-for-the-First-Coast-Yes-but

Similar to your concern about Disney benefiting at tax payer expense.

Surprisingly First Coast rail gets very little attention in that article published yesterday. Again the Orlando commuter rail talk overshadows all other Florida rail talk. The only mention this First Coast Rail article gives of the Jax- Miami commuter rail line is this:

QuoteRidership and dollars will be issues in coming months.

“I think the numbers are there in Jacksonville and North Florida. The FEC line is an opportunity that they could do something for commuters, they could do CSX. It takes a long time. It took 15 years in Central Florida for it to come to fruition.”

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority will release its First Coast Commuter Rail plans at its September 24 board meeting. Turnkey designers Gannett Fleming, Inc. of Camp Hill, Pa., have been working on the project for well more than one year. Their report was due last spring, but no word yet why the delay.

Like our positions on central florida commuter and high speed rail, Mica probably has his reasons for being against Amtrak in the past.  That's why I was asking, what are we supposed to do with this information?  Is it just for our knowledge or do you think something else should be done?

I thought you guys arleady knew Mica's past position on Amtrak.  I stand corrected, but it has been posted on this site several times in the past.

Why is he against Amtrak?  Is it intercity rail in general or a certain way it was being funded or ran?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 03:31:41 PM
Why is he against Amtrak?  Is it intercity rail in general or a certain way it was being funded or ran?

He's a strong supporter of privatization of government functions. It's all part of the Republican philosophy. BTW it's his current position too.

By pushing for the Acela to be replaced ( a provision he put in the only Amtrak funding bill he's ever voted yes on) he's trying to force away one of Amtrak's most profitable lines, thereby again undermining Amtrak.

Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 03:29:32 PM
I can look at Corrine Brown's record and see that she not only chairs a committee on rail for the US house, but is also a real advocate of rail.

But I don't know Mica's'

Yes you DO know Mica's:

Quote
1. He does not want HSR for Florida ( did not endorse the HSR application )
2. He only wants HSR to replace the Acela, Washington DC to NY, been stomping for that one as a former NY resident.
3. He's only given lip service to the Jax-Miami commuter line since 2001 ( even though it would run the entire length of his district and would be easy to get started)
4. He's an avid suppporter of Orlando Commuter rail ( which will take freight trains out of Winter Park, his home town)

Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 04:50:30 PM
Faye, would you swear on your credibility that he has never voted yes on another bill funding amtrak?  or do you mean a bill specifically designed for amtrak?  Or do you mean as far as youve researched?

Stephen, I have read that John Mica never voted yes on any other bill funding Amtrak, except the one that has the provision to get private company bids on replacing the Acela with HSR. The people who have been blogging about this are rail officionados, who have watched Mica's votes for the 17 years he's been in US Congress ( we ought to have term limits).

Like most here on this blog, I never really knew how my Representative voted in Washington DC. Most of us only know the smiling faces of our Reps, and how "nice" they seem. There are however orgs that track the voting records of our Reps, and that makes it easier for all of us.

The League of Conservation voters ( that are into conserving our environment) gives him a zero out of 100.

What we should have is an org that tracks public transportation issues specifically, but you can bet that those who score high by the League of Conservation voters (LCV), would also be avid public transportation supporters.

Anyway, the fact that Mica consitently gets called an Amtrak critic, Amtrak hater, and the like should have been food for thought a long time ago among local rail enthusiasts.

Apparently Ock was sufficiently concerned in the early nineties to try to help educate Mica on Amtrak,.......unfortunately Mica can continue voting NO to Amtrak funding all the time without anyone even noticing.......

Two comments on the four points.

1. He does not want HSR in Florida for the same reasons others like Ock and me have stated.  Its the same reason you claim you don't support Orlando's commuter rail plan.  We all believe its too much money and the wrong type of investment for taxpayers, based on what's planned.

4. His own town really does not want it.  Many of Winter Park's residents believe that it will bring "rift raft" into their downtown.  If anything, he is a leader in this issue to keep pushing it even though many in his own home turf rather see rail money invested in more roads.

Also, that freight traffic shifting off the "A" line frees a ton of capacity on the "A" line between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.  In other words, anyone who wants commuter rail to happen in Jax quick, should support the relocation of freight traffic from the "A" to the "S" line through North and Central Florida.

To be realistic, I'm not really concerned with his past record towards Amtrak.  The application for HSR funds to fund the Amtrak/FEC project has already been submitted to the federal government.  Amtrak also has another pot of funds the government has provided for them to enhance their intercity network.  So, if Amtrak really wants it, it will happen, regardless of Mica's past actions. 

Now if you or Faye can prove that he's actively lobbying against the project, then that's another thing and I would be truly concerned in that case.

He is pro rail for a Republican.  However, he has some reservations about Amtrak.  As you know, both me and Ock are also pro-rail but we have our reservations about Florida's HSR plans.  Faye is also pro rail, but she has her reservations about Sunrail.  With that said, unless he's actively lobbying against Amtrak expanding in Florida with the stimulus money available, I'm not too concerned.  As rail advocates, we don't always have to agree on every single issue.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 05:29:38 PM
However, he has some reservations about Amtrak. 

John Mica has actively lobbied AGAINST Amtrak. Remember the CSPAN interview in 2005, where he talked about dismantling Amtrak. He has actively lobbied to STARVE Amtrak.

Stephen, I can get you that link,.........give me a minute,......as I've said voting records are only of interest to a small group of dedicated individuals that track them. The general media doesn't ever report on voting records much.

For example, Reps routinely brag about what the stimulus money has done for their district, by making ANNOUNCEMENTS of federal monies coming in. Meantime the traditional media NEVER mentions that that particular Rep voted AGAINST the stimulus money, when the bill was up for a vote.

He may not be a big fan of Amtrak, but the guy has been Sunrail's biggest supporter and the articles are littered all over our transportation section.  Here are a few links on Mica and commuter rail.

Mica seeks support for $650M rail project  
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4389.0.html
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/02/02/daily47.html

SunRail back on Track
http://www.cityoforlando.net/Elected/mayor/pressreleases/09_06_29_sunrail.htm

Mica pushes government regulation of Amtrak
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/10/27/daily31.html

Congressman Mica perseveres on commuter rail
http://www.examiner.com/x-5325-Orlando-Republican-Examiner~y2009m6d9-Congressman-Mica-perseveres-on-commuter-rail

QuoteU.S. Representative John Mica, a proponent of the now defunct Sunrail commuter train system, has not given up on the idea of bringing public transportation railways to the Central Florida area. At an ‘eggs and issues’ forum sponsored by the Daytona Beach-Halifax area chamber of commerce, the Winter Park Republican Congressman stated that he’s not closing the door on commuter rail.

During the course of his speech at yesterday’s event, he announced that he’d earmarked an additional $24 million in the six-year federal transportation authorization bill for building a second station in Volusia County, in addition to the one currently authorized in DeBary. The money would also finance a study of the feasibility of extending the line to East Volusia.
Congressman Mica said that he supports commuter rail because it is cheaper than building an additional two lanes on I-4. According to him, widening 20 miles of the Interstate highway around the Orlando area would cost $3 billion, while purchasing 61.5 miles of track from CSX and developing a commuter rail system would cost $2.7 billion. Such a system could move 13,000 commuters per hour, as opposed to 2,000 cars on an expanded I-4 expressway.

That's about it for me in this thread.  Either you like the guy or you don't.  Personally, as long as he is not actively lobbying against feasible rail projects in this state, he does not bother me.

The lakelander,......as a rail enthusist, Mica's disdain for Amtrak doesn't bother you?

QuoteSo the federal intervention on behalf of the national railroad was a failed one. But all is not lost on high speed. As has already been pointed out, Amtrak doesn’t have to do that much to upgrade the Northeast Corridor to higher speeds. And the service is already popular: it accounted for 50% of travel (air and rail) between Boston and New York at the end of 2007, and much more between Washington and New York. This market share would increase even with incremental decreases in travel time.

But Amtrak CEO Alex Kummant has argued that 200-mph service on the Northeast Corridor is simply unlikely because no one is willing to provide the billions of dollars required to build new tracks and a new right-of-way that would be required to envision speeds that high. That may be true. But Florida Representative John Mica, who sees Amtrak as “Soviet-style” rail transport because it is a “government monopoly,” has introduced a solution: a declaration of willingness to accept private bids for new service between Washington and New York in less than two hours. Considering that every other high speed rail system in the world has been initiated through government investment, such private bids seem unlikely.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2008/10/25/fast-forward/

HMMMM, Mica doesn't mind a CSX monopoly though, does he?!?!

Stephen, here is an article that explains how Mica and other Republicans came to vote for an Amtrak bill. Prior to that, Amtrak bills that called for capital improvements for Amtrak would be voted down by Republicans hostile to Amtrak including John Mica:

Quote
U.S. House Passes Amtrak Bill: A New Era for Passenger Rail?

By Petra on June 18, 2008

Amtrak's fortunes may finally be turning around. The National Rail Passenger Corporation has been fighting for its life for the duration of a hostile Bush administration and ever since the last Amtrak authorization bill of 1997, which directed the corporation to become financially self-sufficient and brought about a decade of service cuts and deferred maintenance that worsened Amtrak's poor performance and reputation.

But last Wednesday's vote in the U.S. House of Representatives may usher in a new, more hopeful era for passenger rail in this country. The bipartisan bill (H.R. 6003) would authorize $14.4 billion over five years to support Amtrak, including capital grants to Amtrak itself to invest in new passenger cars, rehabilitate aging bridges and replace railroad ties and overhead wires, and to states to improve passenger corridors and facilities. (For the New York region, this could mean improvements to Moynihan Station may be eligible to receive the state capital grants.) The bill also reverses the self-sufficiency directive as did a similar Amtrak bill passed by the Senate last October. The two bills must now go to conference and pass both houses again before being signed into law.




The key to the bill's easy passage in the House was its support by 87 Republicans, led by Rep. John Mica (R-FL), Ranking Member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, who introduced a provision to create privately funded high-speed rail service in the Northeast Corridor.

Mica's provision would allow private entities (including Amtrak) to submit proposals for developing two-hour high-speed rail service from New York City to Washington, D.C. True high-speed rail in the Corridor would require a new, separate right-of-way to avoid the existing commuter, intercity and freight rail traffic that uses the Amtrak-owned New York-Washington rail corridor.

And clearly his motive was not to help Amtrak. He actually found a new way to undermine Amtrak,......with that provision he inserted to replace the Acels with HSR,......that would take away Amtraks most profitable line.

More anti-Amtrak related stuff in regards to his philosophy:

QuoteDuring his freshman term, one journalist described Mica as an “unrepentant entrepreneur for whom the verbs privatize and commercialize have near-religious meaning.”Groer, Anne, “Rep. John Mica: Central Florida Wheeler-Dealer,” Orlando Sentinel, March 7, 1993(4)Groer, Anne, “Rep. John Mica: Central Florida Wheeler-Dealer,” Orlando Sentinel, March 7, 1993 Early on in his career, Mica started making enemies for his aggressive cost- cutting measures. As chairman of the House Government Oversight Committee Civil Service subcommittee, he enraged federal employees' unions by slashing their benefits

http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/John_L._Mica

QuoteFor years, Amtrak has struggled along without dedicated funding. And for years, Sen. Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey has campaigned for permanent funding, without which Amtrak has been unable to make reliable plans for upgrading infrastructure, providing new rail cars and building new rail lines.



This legislation lays a framework for funding over the next five years. The last time Amtrak got multi-year funding was in 1997.

That the president signed the bill is an achievement in itself, as the Bush administration has been anything but supportive of Amtrak. Given its druthers, it would have scrapped Amtrak, privatizing its profitable parts and dumping the rest.

In the past, every request for funds had to begin with a debate over whether funding Amtrak was a good idea. Now, with the creation of a benchmark, that question has been answered.

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2008/10/public_rail_gains_traction.html

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 05:56:16 PM
That's about it for me in this thread.  Either you like the guy or you don't.  Personally, as long as he is not actively lobbying against feasible rail projects in this state, he does not bother me.

Having never followed through on some lip service John Mica gave to the jax-miami Amtrak service in 2001, is just as bad as actively lobbying against.

Don't you need a Representative who Actively lobbies FOR the Amtrak Jax-Miami line?

Don't you expect that from your Representative?

Why is he so dedicated in Florida to ONLY the rail line in his back yard?

Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 07:26:03 PM
Faye, thanks for the information.   It seems kind of silly to consider this guy a supporter of rail.

I am supposed to hear from him on Tuesday.  I would like to hear it from him in his own words, but if it is true, then he is a problem and a new person needs that seat.

Thanks Stephen. We'll see if John Mica admits his distaste for Amtrak,......... but his record on Amtrak speaks for itself.

Mica often comes across as a moderate, but his voting record is that of an extremist,..........the most extremist in FL.

(http://transportationfortomorrow.org/final_report/volume_3_html/04_public_sessions/images/011707_presentation_hecker_img_9.jpg)
AMTRAK in 1971 (Creation of Amtrak)

(http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/educweb/ce353/lec01/fig1.3.jpg)
AMTRAK in 1980

(http://www.amtrak.com/images/routeMap_factsDoc.gif)
AMTRAK in 2008

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 05, 2009, 04:44:08 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 03:31:41 PM
Why is he against Amtrak?  Is it intercity rail in general or a certain way it was being funded or ran?

He's a strong supporter of privatization of government functions. It's all part of the Republican philosophy. BTW it's his current position too.

By pushing for the Acela to be replaced ( a provision he put in the only Amtrak funding bill he's ever voted yes on) he's trying to force away one of Amtrak's most profitable lines, thereby again undermining Amtrak.

Faye, forget about Mica, and focus on the issue just a minute. Frankly hearing how Mica, caused the famine in Etheopia, the Lunar Eclipse, and the latest strain of Swine Flu, doesn't concern me nearly as much as your desire to degrade him for his beliefs. I'd actually like to hear what YOU think about Amtrak, what YOU know about the subject and say, perhaps, 10 improvements YOU would like to see with passenger rail in Florida. Tell us why you think it would or would not work.


(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2780284189_9762413129.jpg)
Several industry experts and publications have reviewed Amtrak's books. The way they were counting beans, it only APPEARS that the Northeast Corridor, or the Acela is "Amtrak's most profitable route." In fact, IT IS NOT.
When common profit and loss analysis is performed on a route by route basis, the long distance trains actually cover much more of their cost then was previously believed. Routes such as Florida-NY, Chicago-Twin Cities, Chicago-St. Louis, etc. are downright rich by comparison. Even Amtrak knows this NOW, something the company didn't have a clue about for 30+ years, due to some REALLY BAD accounting.

Worse, the whole "NE CORRIDOR GOOD," "LONG DISTANCE BAD," thing has so permeated society and the press, that now everyone "KNOWS" how successful the NEC has been. Unfortunately if you buy into this theory, then the other end is every train rolling into Florida, is a really bad idea.

It's not even the Democrat verses Republican party line, stuff that you keep referring to. The whole thing was started by a Republican. Richard Nixon is the president that made the huge mistake of signing the RAILPAX BILL into life. When this was done, the Democrats went wild cheering and the Republicans, quietly calculated that from the day RAILPAX became nationalized, it would last maybe 5 more years, and be out of the Federal feed bucket. Prior to the bill with the rate of passenger *(railroad term) "TRAIN OFFS," there simply wouldn't be any more passenger rail by 1976. The Republican view (along with the NEC myth) quickly became this is a huge drain on the national budget and is totally unnecessary. The Democrat view became what a great achievement AMTRAK (a name change from RAILPAX) is since the railroads know NOTHING about running profitable trains.

(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/053106/131149_400.jpg)

The reason for the sadness that RAILPAX or AMTRAK was ever signed is twofold:

1. The nations railroads speaking through the ICC, FRA and Association of American Railroads, NEVER INTENDED FOR GOVERNMENT TO TAKE OVER THE PASSENGER TRAINS! NEVER! All they went to Washington for was relief of some of the costs, and help with new equipment which was quickly coming due for replacement. Railroads were given a "choice" to join Amtrak, but in reality, there was some very strong arm tactics going on in the back rooms. Our own Seaboard Coast Line (CSX today), and Southern Railway (NS today), both announced they wanted no part of it. SCL was actually still advertising and running the Florida trains at a slim profit. Santa Fe (BNSF today) also wanted no part of it, and suddenly in the eleventh hour, both SCL and SANTA FE decided that joining would be "in their best interest." Yeah right!

2. The day Amtrak started operation, about 3/4 of all passenger trains in the United States were discontinued. Hundreds of towns, and entire states were left off the system. Routes that had 3 and 4 trains each way daily suddenly had 1. Those government geniuses that "knew how" to run a railroad, never figured out that different railroads had different equipment. When a Great Northern RR dome car showed up on a Florida train, with it's heat running full blast, nobody had a clue what to do with it. In many trains, cables didn't match, steamlines were different, voltages etc... The whole thing went to hell in a handbasket overnight.

This just reinforced the Republican platform that this whole thing was a stupid idea and completely unnecessary. The Democrats vowed to fix it as long as it didn't cost any extra dollars, so in other words they did nothing but bark up the tree.

Looking back at it all today, there is a funny quirk in the history of Amtrak. Maybe more like a bunch of funny quirks. Here's a handful. The era's of Amtrak's greatest growth and route extensions happened under president 1. Nixon (founding President), 2. Reagan (huge route growth while talking about a "Zero budget". 3. George Bush Sr. (who allowed Texas to save and expand its services, though IMO they are still very inadequate). The greatest cut to Amtrak EVER, came under President Jimmy Carter. (who agreed to sign for funding only if a certain % of trains were killed, and killed they were even though they were running FULL). If your keeping notes: "The Champion", NYC-JAX-TPA; "The Lone Star", CHI-KC-OKC-DAL-HOU; "The Floridian," MIA-TPA-JAX-BNA-CHI; "The Northcoast Hiawatha", CHI-BTM-SEA-PDX; "The National Limited," DCA-CIN-STL. If the system was a skeleton before Carter, when Mr. Peanut was done it was just a few bones. The next Democratic shot was Clinton, and one would think while he was talking green, saving Bambi, etc... he would have REALLY been the Amtrak savior... then Amtrak had to suffer through 8 years of his doing NOTHING, not even pushing for the annual handouts.

There are still so many flaws in the system that even die hard dedicated railroaders such as myself have a hard time loving Amtrak. For example:

(http://calzephyr.railfan.net/pcindm2.jpg)
(http://www.vistadome.com/native_son04.jpg)
1. In all of their history, they have never ordered a dome car, easily THE most popular rail car of all time.

2. They built up a huge business with express shipments, but then started rescheduling passenger trains around the express schedules. Just before launching a huge new train effort based on express they decided they won't carry express anymore. This threw thousands of jobs, and hundreds of rail cars, equipment pieces, and facilities, out the window.

3. Amtrak to this day has never admitted to the bad accounting which has loaded the Republican gun which has been pointed at their heads.

4. Auto-Train was a profitable and expanding Florida enterprise, Amtrak tried to use it's exclusive access to kill the company, then tried to duplicate it building a terminal in Poinciana and Louisville, in the end they had to settle for pulling the Auto Train cars behind their Florida - Chicago passenger train. With the worst schedule keeping and the roughest track in the entire South, they managed to kill Auto-Train and their own version of it, as well as all Florida - Chicago service.

5. The built dozens of new "Amshack" stations around the country to move out of the downtowns and get into low rent districts, leaving many of the great terminals to be razed. Something like half of the Amshacks are now abandoned or have been razed themselves.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2488/3744283611_a0ba3ab181.jpg)
6. They ordered the infamous SDP40F locomotives early in their life, which was supposed to be a passenger variation of a large freight locomotive by EMD (GM). After delivery it was discovered that these locomotives could not run at higher speeds without causing derailments.

7. The Acela? They bought it as the newest thing in trains, a self banking system so much higher speeds could be maintained on conventional track. Only Bombardier had a big problem with the Acela's developing cracks around the trucks. Amtrak repaired all of the cars by welding them in such a way that the train could no longer bank itself.

8. One track minds, Amtrak has to this day treated Long Distance services as a point to point operation, never looking at what market lays in between. Thus many old routes such as Jacksonville - Miami, or Chicago - St. Louis, have several possible routes. For example to Miami, one can pass through Ocala, or Orlando, or Ormond Beach, but Amtrak will use ONE ROUTE rather then expose new towns to train service. If mtraininjax is reading this I'm sure he can tell you, as can anyone who remembers BEFORE Amtrak, just how bad Amtrak SUCKS. But for now, it's all we have, like the Skyway, lets make the best of it.

...and you REALLY wonder why Mica has been less then supportive all these years, suggesting that Virgin Atlantic, or Air France, or a number of other possible bidders (some of which were in the recent HSR meeting in Orlando) might do a better job? YA THINK?  

OCKLAWAHA

Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

Yes, I have.

Quote from: DavidWilliams on September 05, 2009, 11:35:01 PM
Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

David, either intentional or by accident, you have hit at the crux of the whole argument. Is it Amtrak, that we hate or is it Passenger Rail?  

Amtrak, could be likened to going to the beach to look at the babes, only to find out they're all wearing Marine Corps uniforms... In other words, still lovely females, but the packaging stinks.

Passenger Rail, has got to be the latest SI swimsuit issue. Sexy, restful and downright fun. It is also desperately needed to prevent us from paving ourselves into extinction. Just think with the asphalt and concrete the USA has put down in square feet, you could COMPLETELY PAVE the 7 most Northeastern States.

Sure the trains will probably never make money, but then neither does, Main St., JTB, Lane Ave, etc... It is a public service. The only reason those of us hold our noses and cheer for Amtrak is because right now, it's the only game in town. If private carriers come into the game, even with government funding, Amtrak is through! So consider Amtrak a necessary evil, and custodian of all future rail routes, equipment and property, until something much better takes charge.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on September 05, 2009, 11:14:22 PM
regardless of how we think about him personally, if he wont support rail, he's a problem, not part of the solution.

If it turns out that he is against rail in any meaningful way, he needs replaced.

Its clearly been proven that the guy is not a fan of Amtrak (I'm not even going to argue against this fact) but he loves commuter rail.  However, when you say "rail", there's more to that term than "Amtrak."  I wish we could find at least one person in the mayor's office or city council that would come out and publicly support any form of rail the way Mica has pushed for commuter rail in this state.  I don't see how and why you two want to paint the guy as the anti-christ.  If we really want rail improvements here, its best that we work with him because he's not the real problem we face. Its the complete ignorance of this subject at a local leadership level.  Get that fixed and like Houston and Austin, things can turn for the better fairly quickly, with or without federal support.

lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 06, 2009, 08:15:00 AM
lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

Don't you think that some of that would have happened, if John Mica ( Republican leader of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which is the largest committee in US Congress), would have been stomping for Jacksonville as hard as he's been stomping for his hometown/Orlando?

I have to agree with an earlier statement of thelakelander, and consider these two issues the most overlooked opportunities to gather momentum for rail in jax:

Quote
1.  (light) rail between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.

2. Jax-Miami Amtrak commuter service, which is/was easy to accomplish. ( far easier than the complicated Central Florida commuter rail project which replaced another excellent light rail plan in Orlando.)

Where was John Mica for Jax, or for any other area in Florida ( he was even absent as a tri-rail advocate for So. FL, or the earlier 2000 voter approved HSR)?

Where is his present support for HSR or the Jax-Miami Amtrak line?

Missing in action.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 05, 2009, 11:44:55 PM

Quote from: DavidWilliams on September 05, 2009, 11:35:01 PM
Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

David, either intentional or by accident, you have hit at the crux of the whole argument. Is it Amtrak, that we hate or is it Passenger Rail?  

Amtrak, could be likened to going to the beach to look at the babes, only to find out they're all wearing Marine Corps uniforms... In other words, still lovely females, but the packaging stinks.

Passenger Rail, has got to be the latest SI swimsuit issue. Sexy, restful and downright fun. It is also desperately needed to prevent us from paving ourselves into extinction. Just think with the asphalt and concrete the USA has put down in square feet, you could COMPLETELY PAVE the 7 most Northeastern States.

Sure the trains will probably never make money, but then neither does, Main St., JTB, Lane Ave, etc... It is a public service. The only reason those of us hold our noses and cheer for Amtrak is because right now, it's the only game in town. If private carriers come into the game, even with government funding, Amtrak is through! So consider Amtrak a necessary evil, and custodian of all future rail routes, equipment and property, until something much better takes charge.

I very much like your analogy Ock. I would just add, that not only are the babes wearing Marinen corps (or any other branch) uniforms, but the have also been starved, losing much of their appealing curves.

The unfortunate truth is that Republicans have worked hard at vilivying the Amtrak brand, by starving it from necessary funding.

I disagree with Ocks last statement "until something much better takes charge." This is another statement that intentially or unintentionally undermines Amtrak's credibility. If everything government run is BAD, then why do we have a government run military, and a host of other government services including our interstate highway system?

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 10:40:37 AM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 06, 2009, 08:15:00 AM
lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

Don't you think that some of that would have happened, if John Mica ( Republican leader of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which is the largest committee in US Congress), would have been stomping for Jacksonville as hard as he's been stomping for his hometown/Orlando?

No, even with all of his support, the officials at the local level in Orlando are as clueless as the ones here. Witness the blind support for a new Disney Ride, they are trying to sell as "High Speed Rail." At least he has some of the locals talking rail.  

QuoteI have to agree with an earlier statement of thelakelander, and consider these two issues the most overlooked opportunities to gather momentum for rail in jax:


1.  (light) rail between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.

Faye, Light Rail between DT Jax and Orange Park would be a huge waste of funds when the Beaches DON'T have any rail access and Orange Park already does. THINK, CSX already connects DT JAX to OP. Commuter Rail, cash and carry.  

Quote2. Jax-Miami Amtrak commuter service, which is/was easy to accomplish. ( far easier than the complicated Central Florida

Faye, if you are running for Congress or the Senate, again, you really need to learn the subject matter before unloading poison pen baggage on Mica, because he won the election and you didn't.

This second statement says it all to everyone who understands transportation. How many Jaxson's do you think work in Miami? Ft. Lauderdale? West Palm Beach? You terminology is all over the board and quite misleading making it clear you don't fully understand this argument.

You will NEVER SEE "Jax-Miami commuter service," This is sort of like saying the local JTA bus to Los Angeles! Jacksonville to Miami is a LONG DISTANCE ROUTE. It will have long distance trains, such as the Silver Meteor, or Silver Star, running a section all the way to Miami, via the FEC RY. The closest thing you will get on this route is a new Amtrak Corridor service, where we "MIGHT" see trains running 6-10 round trips daily. Trains with reclining seat coaches, and a full diner or lounge car service, hardly a "commuter" run.

QuoteWhere was John Mica for Jax, or for any other area in Florida ( he was even absent as a tri-rail advocate for So. FL, or the earlier 2000 voter approved HSR)?

Where is his present support for HSR or the Jax-Miami Amtrak line?

Mica is the one who was instrumental in bringing the Colorado Rail Car DMU demonstration to Jacksonville. Between he and C. Brown, they tried to get the Mayor, and JTA's attention. In fact they are behind the scenes of Jacksonville Commuter Rail.
Commuter rail such as St. Augustine, Palatka, Macclenny and Fernandina/Yulee. If he doesn't support Commuter Rail for Jacksonville, or Corridor Rail on the East Coast, THEN we have a problem. As long as he is backing our efforts at Commuter Rail, he is the right man. I know he also backs Central Florida High Speed Rail, which I'd like to speak to him about. If it were a TRUE, high speed train in a population dense corridor, then I'd back it too. What we have got for all of our dollars is a stupid plan that will trash Billions of dollars and still miss the needs of FLORIDIANS.

Missing in action, or flying commuter trains to Miami, and Light Rail to Orange Park (next to the CSX) would be a waste.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 11:39:42 AM
1.  There isnt a 'you two'.   I am responding to Faye's information, like you are, because it is new to me.

2.  No one is saying he is the anti christ.   But if he is against rail and mass transit projects, then he is a problem, and he needs replaced.  Lake you know that. 

Its been proven that he is not against rail and mass transit projects in general.  He's one of the state's biggest supporters. 

QuoteYou should ask yourself why you are so committed to the belief that he is pro commuter rail.   Have any of us ever heard or seen any proof that he is willing to vote for it?

Yes, its clear the guy is a huge commuter rail advocate.  Anyone who has followed our site during this time, would know this.  I'm surprised a lot of this stuff is now new to you.  We've had these discussions before several times at our Tuesday night meetings.

QuoteHe might like trains a lot, and he may think they are cool, but does that translate to actual votes and money?

And in the end, that is his job.  We dont need him to be anti christ.  We need him to be pro rail.

Right now, he and C. Brown are as about as pro rail as it gets around here.  They are the least of our problems.  We need other local representatives to get educated on the issue and on board.  Here is another link to his support of commuter rail.  Its more than just lip service.  When you talk with him, I'm sure you'll find out about more.

QuoteCritics also have decried the high cost of SunRail, saying it amounts to corporate welfare. It was an especially effective argument during the past legislative session when lawmakers were forced to raise some taxes and fees, raid trust funds and rely on federal dollars to plug a $4 billion hole in the budget.

But U.S. Rep. John Mica, R- Winter Park, said he hopes to win even more money from the federal government â€" close to $250 million â€" from the nearly $800 billion stimulus package approved earlier this year by the Congress.

"More federal money, less state money," Mica said. "We'll get as much as we can get there."

Some of the money saved by the state could, in theory, be diverted to the struggling Tri-Rail commuter train in South Florida. Constantine tried to win votes in that region last session by offering to back a $2 surcharge on rental cars, but South Florida lawmakers turned him down.

Now that Tri-Rail is facing layoffs, service reductions and a related loss of federal funding, Constantine said, they might be more willing to work with SunRail supporters.

Mica previously has applied for $300 million in federal funding. About $40 million was aside for SunRail in the current budget, he said.

http://www.sunrail.com/newsevents.asp?type=news&id=93

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/dmu_demo/DSC_0019.jpg)
John Mica at Jacksonville Terminal speaking about the benefits of commuter rail.

Commuter Rail Demonstration visits Jacksonville (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-commuter-rail-demonstration-visits-jacksonville)

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 10:55:27 AM

The unfortunate truth is that Republicans have worked hard at vilivying the Amtrak brand, by starving it from necessary funding.

Quote

I disagree with Ocks last statement "until something much better takes charge." This is another statement that intentially or unintentionally undermines Amtrak's credibility. If everything government run is BAD, then why do we have a government run military, and a host of other government services including our interstate highway system?

Faye, why is Obama able to speak up for rail and Carter or Clinton couldn't, didn't, wouldn't. This doesn't just crack down party lines as you seem to think. So many have heard about the "success," of the northeast corridor, that it has become fact in the minds of the people. The late Chairman Mao, said, "Tell a lie long enough and it becomes truth..." Government run excellence? The Post Office vs Federal Express? Even the highly praised VA medical system is one of the most frustrating functions of government. Something better in the case of Amtrak, would be incentive funds for railroad companies, or outside contractors to take over Amtrak, on a region by region basis.

Amtrak is fun to ride, generally comfortable, but being nationalized, it is not responsive to their markets. The trains through Georgia no longer serve peanut soup. Just one of thousands of little things that the private railroads did for over 100 years quite successfully. It is basically a GI Issue train service. It could be so much better and so much more, but government doesn't understand, remember or respond. Just before the new Amtrak funding bill was launched, the geniuses over at Amtrak were rolling out a new "food service car." What they did is take a full kitchen dinning car, convert 1/2 to more coach seating, and the other 1/2 into a railroad clone of a Target Department Store snack bar. I'm not saying scrap Amtrak, in fact it could be more then tripled and still not reach the level of service that the private railroads gave up until the day Amtrak took over.  

OCKLAWAHA

I believe Mica is against Amtrak long distance trains, which I disagree with. I don't know if he was ever given the opportunity to vote on the issue, but I believe he was quoted several times saying the he was in favor of abolishing Amtrak except for certain corridors.

You can probably search newspaper archives to dig up more quotes from him.

Amtrak already has their money.  An Amtrak corridor service is not going to come down to a Mica vote.  That's FDOT agreeing to partner with them and local officials pushing for steps that benefit Jax.  So I'd be more inclined to see about Mica's history when it comes to commuter rail.

What type of rail are we talking about?  It feels like this thread is all over the place when it comes to actual modes of rail and their funding sources.

Also, lets try and pin point Mica's problem with Amtrak.  Is it rail in general or the way it has been run? 

As I know him, I'd say off the top, he's FOR COMMUTER RAIL, he is completely sold on the Northeast Corridor's "success," but thinks Amtrak has screwed it up. On long distance rail, having bought into the "Corridor Good - Long Distance Bad" argument, he is generally anti Amtrak. The exception to this rule is I believe he does think the corridor will be extended to Florida, and thus supports "Florida deals" when they come up. If I had to bet the farm on his vote for a new train from Dallas to Denver, I'd go ahead and start packing.

COMMUTER RAIL 100%
CORRIDOR RAIL 100%
AMTRAK FLORIDA 50%
AMTRAK NATIONAL 10%

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 02:15:52 PM
Also, lets try and pin point Mica's problem with Amtrak.  Is it rail in general or the way it has been run? 

Mica's two decade old problem with Amtrak boils down to the same reason Ock says this:

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 06, 2009, 02:15:52 PM
..." Government run excellence? The Post Office vs Federal Express? Even the highly praised VA medical system is one of the most frustrating functions of government. Something better in the case of Amtrak, would be incentive funds for railroad companies, or outside contractors to take over Amtrak, on a region by region basis.

Where Ock is completely misinformed. The conservative Rand corp says this about the VA:

QuoteA study done by RAND Corporation, found that VA outpaces private health care systems in delivering care to patients. Among its findings, RAND found that VA patients were more likely to receive recommended health services than those in a national sample of patients using a private provider. It also concluded that VA patients received consistently better care across the board, including screening, diagnosis, treatment, and follow-up.

Additionally, an article in Washington Monthly titled "The Best Care Anywhere" explained at length how, in just 10 years, VA hospitals went from less than excellent care to the pinnacle of quality health care. Fostering the change is the focus on new technology to reduce medical errors.

The REAL key is adequate funding for government services. You can't make the VA or Amtrak for that matter anorexic and expect it to provide a great service!!

http://veterans.senate.gov/press-releases.cfm?action=release.display&release_id=32a8ff36-f663-4dba-bd00-df40ec4a9fba

Let's see what Zukowski says about Amtrak. Zukowski has been the editor or senior editor of half a dozen magazines and newsletters, and is the author of "Why America Needs Amtrak." An expert in the automotive and passenger rail fields, Zukowski has been quoted in the Washington Post, the National Post of Canada, Fresno magazine and The New York Times TimesSelect online edition; has been a guest on WPFW-Pacifica Radio and interviewed on CBS News radio; and has appeared on major cable networks.

QuoteAmtrak's Problem Solved
Amtrak now has the two most powerful lobbyists in Washington on its side: the newly-inaugurated president and vice president of the United States.

When I began this blog four years, to counter the Bush Administration's attempts to dismember the national passenger railroad, I started with the premise that "Amtrak has a communications problem." I pointed out that "there is no strong national voice speaking in support of Amtrak." Only a few small, underfunded rail enthusiast organizations and the stepchild attention of environmental groups carried the flag for passenger trains -- constituencies easily ignored by most conservative Republicans.

In Washington, legislation is written by lobbyists, and as a government-owned corporation, Amtrak had no access to K Street firms. Now, the sitting president and vice president not only chose to ride into town on an Amtrak train, but they both referred to Amtrak in their acceptance speeches at the Democratic convention. Pennsylvania Avenue is a better address than K Street.

Now, let's see if they walk the talk. The first sign is not encouraging: transportation as a whole is only mentioned in a single paragraph under "Additional Issues" on the new White House Web site.

Amtrak has never had any more than lukewarm support from the White House.
Nixon agreed to create the National Railroad Passenger Corporation in order to placate the freight railroads, and it wasn't expected to survive more than a couple of years.
President Carter tried to severely curtail long distance service,
Reagan tried to kill Amtrak altogether, and
Clinton merely left the life support machine plugged in.

President Obama and Amtrak Joe both support the national passenger railroad, and see it as part of the solution to energy efficiency and congestion mitigation. But there will be strong competition for federal dollars, even in an era when the printing press is running 24/7.

The previous administration's attack on Amtrak seemed particularly short-sighted to me at a time of rising oil prices and global warming. Moreover, it would have been an egregious waste of a national asset. We're talking dollars here, folks.

Amtrak is a unique and undervalued asset. By law, it is the only passenger railroad which has statutory authority to operate over the nation's network of freight railroads. It owns locomotives, cars, stations and shops which have a monetary value so long as there is a railroad to run. To have simply shut it down would have been to tear up taxpayer dollars.

With two big supporters in the White House, Amtrak now has an opportunity to prove itself. It needs funds to overhaul and upgrade equipment and service, but in a market economy, it can only be of value if it provides convenient, reliable, safe transportation at a competitive price.



Posted by Daniel Zukowski on January 21, 2009 at 09:05 AM in Amtrak | Permalink

Sorry, lakelander, but the credibility of Republicans who've actively worked to kill Amtrak is irredeemable.

Faye, no need to apologize, I'm not arguing for anyone's credibility regarding Amtrak.  However, I would be interested to see plans for a privately ran system mentioned by Ock above.  Intercity rail was private at one point.  Is there anything that could be done to make private investment in passenger rail systems more feasible?

Also, you seem to know Mica well.  What's his past history on commuter rail?

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
Well we pinpointed our plan based on Amtrak, so his opinion on that is what matters.

Larry Hannan has been writing in the TU about the rail need of Amtrak's Jax Miami line in NE Florida since Nov 2008, and Mica has not found it necessary to be a major driver in the effort.

Mere, and tepid lipservice isn't going to be enough, and being that he has been such a foe of Amtrak I highly doubt that he'd exhibit the same kind of dedication to Amtrak Jax-Miami as the CSX Central Florida Commuter rail that would run through his backyard.

If staying silent about it is ok with thelakelander, what the heck do we have representatives for in Washington DC?!?!?

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 02:41:10 PM
Well we pinpointed our plan based on Amtrak, so his opinion on that is what matters.

Our plan is not pinpointed on Amtrak.  The local BJP money that may or may not exist, is the potential source for fixed rail connecting our urban core neighboroods.  That's the central piece of our MJ discussions.

Amtrak comes into play as a way to reduce the long term capital costs of commuter rail on corridors shared by Amtrak.  The Amtrak/FEC project is beyond a yea or nay vote by Mica or Brown.  The mjaor players at this point are FDOT and Amtrak.  Our local fight on this end is to get some Jax related rail improvments included in the rollout of the system if the State, Amtrak and FEC can agree to terms.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 02:49:09 PM
Also, you seem to know Mica well.  What's his past history on commuter rail?

In Orlando, Mica ditched the light-rail plan that had gotten renewed support in 2000, in favor of the CSX commuter rail line, which ridership has been questionable. He never misses an opportunity to advocate for the CSX commuter rail line through his back yard. He's kind of like a one trick pony on rail. His only other interest is to replace Amtrak's successful Acela.

Also Faye, how would you handle the Sunrail issue?  Its pretty critical for Jax's commuter rail plans, to have a major portion of freight traffic shifted from the A line ("Mica's backyard).  For the commuter rail line between DT and Clay County, this is more important than Amtrak.

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 02:48:18 PM
Faye, fyi, Ock also worked at the Post Office and is a disabled veteran.

We all complain about everything.  Even the isrealites complained about Manna in the middle of the desert.

Its a species of hairless chimps who spend their time kvetching.  Welcome to the human condition.

But hes not misinformed about the shortcomings of the systems. 

He's misinformed about the VA.

BTW the DAV ( Disabled American Veterans of America) gave Mica a score of 5% out of 100%.

Amazing how those who've benefited the most from government are those who are the government's harshest critics.

What has always irked me is that people who do not believe in government get elected to government office!!!

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 03:02:14 PM
Our plan most certainly does rely on Amtrak to provide the corridor improvements to piggy back off of.

In fact, we helped author the resolution asking the JTA Board to support this initiative.

You are just digging your heels in, and its a little amusing.

Did you just read what I stated?   The piggying backing part is the Amtrak/FEC project.  That application has already been submitted and the money needed to fund it (and other HSR/intercity projects) has already been set aside.  This issue of what we've discussed (regarding Amtrak) has passed the point of Mica or Brown voting against it.

The two other elements still in play are the Sunrail issue (CSX A line capacity situation, CSX Springfield Bypass funding, etc.) and the BJP $100 million (Streetcar starter).  Don't believe me?  Go back and check the last couple of years of articles I've written on this subject.

QuoteWithout Amtrak, under our current proposition, there is no city wide transit.  Just a downtown system that may or may not connect to one of the suburbs.

Not entirely true.  Amtrak's FEC project just makes it easier for the SE commuter rail corridor and getting Amtrak back downtown.  We also need the CSX/Sunrail deal to go through for the North and Southwest commuter rail corridors.  Urban core wise, its streetcar/skyway or bust.

QuoteYou know that as well as I do.  You and ock are defending a politician on his position which you may or may not be correct about.

I am correct in stating he's not a fan of Amtrak but an advocate of commuter rail.  I am also correct in stating that Mica is the least of our problems.  That's my position in this debate.  

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 03:06:32 PM
lol. Ive always found that odd.  But who is better qualified to complain or criticize.

But Ock's feelings about the VA aside, what would you do?

I already expressed my two points of interest locally:

Quote1.  (light) rail between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.

2. Jax-Miami Amtrak commuter service, which is/was easy to accomplish. ( far easier than the complicated Central Florida commuter rail project which replaced another excellent light rail plan in Orlando.)

Statewide I'm into grabbing some of the federal HSR dollars for Orlando Tampa HSR, sim ply because the dollars are there for this visionary project, and God knows we need the jobs.

1. Light rail between DT and Orange Park is not feasible or the smartest thing to do.  Commuter rail is the most cost efficient solution for this corridor because the rail is already in place.  However, this line really needs the Sunrail deal to go through to make it a reality sooner rather than later.

2. You mean intercity rail service provided by Amtrak instead of commuter rail.  As Ock stated, they are completely too different modes of rail service. Luckily, the HSR fund application for this project has been submitted.

Also, Sunrail did not replace Orlando's LRT plan.  They have been designed to complement one another.  I'll see if I can find a map showing both together.

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 03:16:44 PM
Hmm.   Any concrete positions or rail corridors that you would favor aside from the tampa orlando connection?

That's funny,.........I've seen Mica's single-minded focus on the CSX central Florida commuter rail being hailed on this board.

And the fact that I see three projects of priority, in addition to a rework of the CSX central florida commuter rail deal, I think is enough for now.

I'd also really like the light rail effort in Orlando to be revived.

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 03:14:57 PMWithout Amtrak, under our current proposition, there is no city wide transit.  Just a downtown system that may or may not connect to one of the suburbs.

Without funding there is no Amtrak.

see my post above about Sunrail's impact on the SW commuter rail corridor.

QuoteIn the current round of funding for Amtrak, there are no provisions for Jacksonville and our Transit Agency at our behest has been  working to get Jacksonville included.

That's a local issue.  Mica has nothing to do with getting Amtrak back in DT Jax.  His district does not even extend that far.  DT Jax is Brown's territory.  

congressional District 7
(http://www.house.gov/mica/Images/DistMap108.gif)

Nevertheless, if we can't convince Amtrak to move back DT as a part of the plan, we still benefit on the FEC corridor by them having to make track capacity improvements and adding a station in St. Augustine to get underway.

QuoteThe Obama administration pumped 8 billion into Amtrak.   There are a billion dollars more per year set aside for the next four years.  And there is a comprehensive plan being put together by Amtrak to push even more into the rollout of a national system.  Because of our position they have to include us, but the wheels to the process we set in motion are only now beginning to roll.

Those are the facts.

Here is another fact, the $8 billion you're talking about is not completely geared towards Amtrak.  However, since Amtrak is in the business of intercity rail, there are Amtrak related projects that they can possibly tap into with HSR dollars.  The FEC project is a good example.

The other source (which is probably more important than the HSR stimulus dollars) is the Passenger Rail Improvement Act (H.R. 6003) that has passed last year.  It gives Amtrak an additional $14 billion dollars between 2009 and 2013. $2.5 billion of that is for new state passenger corridors.

Feel free. :)  You can start with Sunrail.  Its the closet rail project to Jax that has a direct impact on our plans.

Here is a link to start your due diligence search: www.sunrail.com

Faye, here is a link to the Orlando LRT plan I mentioned a couple of posts ago:

http://www.sunrail.com/nslightrail.asp

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 03:40:13 PM
I prefer to ask the congressman. ;)

That should be done too.  But a little research and background knowledge before hand would make for a better converstation with the congressman.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 03:19:57 PM

Also, Sunrail did not replace Orlando's LRT plan.  They have been designed to complement one another.  I'll see if I can find a map showing both together.

Orlando's LRT plan was about to be revived, when the commuter line started to be pitched by Mica.

Sure,.........EVERYTHING has become contigent upon the CSX commuter rail, or so we've been led to believe.

No other plans were to be discussed etc. Mica even threatened that if people didn't support his pet project, they could kiss any future federal dollars goodbye.

The light rail plan was estimated to cost $1.3 billion in 2002 with an additional $160 million a year for annual O&M costs.  Judging from Tampa's crazy $5.2 billion estimate for LRT, the Orlando system would probably cost a lot more today.  

Imo, its better to prioritize and get one component of a regional vision through properly instead of spreading resources out to the point where nothing actually happens at the end of the day.  Nevertheless, the state can't even get behind Mica's commuter rail plan or commit to fundind Tri-Rail.  If its considered too expensive, light rail does not have a chance.

Quote from: stephendare on September 06, 2009, 04:06:15 PM
Whats your source to backup those threats from Mica, Faye? 

By now, you must have figured out that I can back up my statements. So here goes:

QuoteWhy would Tampa be left out?

When you don't have a project, the money goes somewhere else. In Tampa, you've got one short streetcar line. Of the 27 largest metropolitan statistical areas, only Orlando, northern Ohio and southern Kentucky don't really have fixed-transit systems.

Tampa can wrap itself up in a cocoon and not participate, but the rest of the country is going to do an economic stimulus package, and a big part of it will be infrastructure.

Why did you threaten earlier this year to cut off federal transportation money for Tampa if Florida didn't approve the Orlando rail plan?

I think I was rather strong in my commitment, but I never threatened to cut anybody totally off.

I am more inclined to support everyone who supports solutions. I've encouraged everybody, not just in Tampa but around the state, to try to get some resolutions to things that are stopping us from moving forward.

I couldn't think of a worse time in Florida for a major project to fail. Everyone's competing for money and time and approval.

My threat isn't that Mica's going to do this. My statement is if we don't do this, we're going to look awfully foolish. The last thing we need is for our projects to move farther behind because we have no credibility.

If they see us not getting our act together, they'll step over you so quickly it'll make your head spin.

I'm well-positioned right now. I'll be the most powerful person on the Republican side on transportation in the country come Jan. 20.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/dec/14/co-getting-rail-out-of-the-station/

So who's right?

QuoteI think I was rather strong in my commitment, but I never threatened to cut anybody totally off.

I am more inclined to support everyone who supports solutions. I've encouraged everybody, not just in Tampa but around the state, to try to get some resolutions to things that are stopping us from moving forward.

I couldn't think of a worse time in Florida for a major project to fail. Everyone's competing for money and time and approval.

My threat isn't that Mica's going to do this. My statement is if we don't do this, we're going to look awfully foolish. The last thing we need is for our projects to move farther behind because we have no credibility.

If they see us not getting our act together, they'll step over you so quickly it'll make your head spin.

Is there any truth to this position?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 04:39:31 PM
So who's right?

QuoteI think I was rather strong in my commitment, but I never threatened to cut anybody totally off.

I am more inclined to support everyone who supports solutions. I've encouraged everybody, not just in Tampa but around the state, to try to get some resolutions to things that are stopping us from moving forward.

I couldn't think of a worse time in Florida for a major project to fail. Everyone's competing for money and time and approval.

My threat isn't that Mica's going to do this. My statement is if we don't do this, we're going to look awfully foolish. The last thing we need is for our projects to move farther behind because we have no credibility.

If they see us not getting our act together, they'll step over you so quickly it'll make your head spin.

Is there any truth to this position?

Ah, but thelakelander, you're ok with your Representative saying: "I never threatened to cut anybody totally off"

Just a little at a time, death by a thousand cuts for Amtrak.

But I'm done here. You have been an even stronger defender on Mica's non-accomplishment on rail in Florida, than Ock,........and that really says something.

I'm not a Republican, he's not my Representative, I'm not in his district.  I just don't hate the guy the way you do.  I may not know or care about him as much as you, but I do believe he is a strong supporter of commuter rail and the least of our concerns, when it comes to improving rail transit in Jacksonville. 

So my defense of him in this thread has more to do with wanting us to maintain our focus on those who have a stronger impact locally on getting rail based transit established in Jacksonville.  When I look at this situation from that angle, Mica continues to be the least of our concerns in this fight for better mass transit.

Now with that side, it you can prove that he's actively working to kill Jacksonville's commuter rail and streetcar plans or is working to keep the state from partnering with Amtrak, I'd quickly jump to your side on this issue.

Btw, if I was in position to give an entity taxpayer money and they didn't have their act together, I'd limit the amount of money given to them as well.  If we had done that locally over the last decade, the city would not be in the financial situation it is in today. 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
Btw, if I was in position to give an entity taxpayer money and they didn't have their act together, I'd limit the amount of money given to them as well.  If we had done that locally over the last decade, the city would not be in the financial situation it is in today. 

In an earlier post in this thread I showed you the miracle of what happens when you adequately fund a government entity such as the VA,......it is now THE best healthcare system in the US, outperforming any other.

Keeping Amtrak anorexic isn't a prescription for success. I personally believe that who you support to represent your area makes a huge difference for your area, in particular when it comes to transportation.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 05:15:03 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
Btw, if I was in position to give an entity taxpayer money and they didn't have their act together, I'd limit the amount of money given to them as well.  If we had done that locally over the last decade, the city would not be in the financial situation it is in today. 

In an earlier post in this thread I showed you the miracle of what happens when you adequately fund a government entity such as the VA,......it is now THE best healthcare system in the US, outperforming any other.

Keeping Amtrak anorexic isn't a prescription for success. I personally believe that who you support to represent your area makes a huge difference for your area, in particular when it comes to transportation.

Speaking about things in general, I think funding only gets you so far.  If you have a bad plan (ex. Florida HSR, downtown Jax revitalization, etc.), sometimes you have to overcome issues that have nothing to do with money if your ultimate goal is success. 

True, but you don't throw money into a burning pit before figuring out solutions for viability.  That's the type of stuff that ended up with Jax sprawling all over Duval County and now not being able to pay for its unsustainable decades old growth decisions.

That's why I asked the question about Mica's idea of privatizing Amtrak earlier.  How would this be done to make the private sector want to invest in such a system?  Is there a feasible solution out there that can make rail transit better through public/private partnerships? 

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 05:15:03 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
Btw, if I was in position to give an entity taxpayer money and they didn't have their act together, I'd limit the amount of money given to them as well.  If we had done that locally over the last decade, the city would not be in the financial situation it is in today. 

In an earlier post in this thread I showed you the miracle of what happens when you adequately fund a government entity such as the VA,......it is now THE best healthcare system in the US, outperforming any other.

Keeping Amtrak anorexic isn't a prescription for success. I personally believe that who you support to represent your area makes a huge difference for your area, in particular when it comes to transportation.

Faye, watching this from the sidelines is hilarious. Your information seems taken completely from web searches of newspaper and media story's. Your mention of our own TU reporter Larry Hannan, as one of your "sources" demonstrates how far off this issue of rail you really are. MJ felt we had to do a SECOND run of a piece we did on the various modes of rail. We did this partly because Larry, like you, was mixing Amtrak, Light Rail, Commuter Rail, and small puppy's into a single group.

I'm glad Lakelander has done a better job then I of defending Mica, because your constant hate speak on these boards have convinced me that whoever or whatever you are, your not the cure. Frankly I'm tired of the mud, and I don't even see the race.

As for your "Conservative Rand Report," the VA is the best in the nation, so Ock doesn't know what he's talking about? If this were any other circumstance your would be assassinating the credibility of the Rand Report because Mica, 1. reads it, 2. read it, or 3. might read it. Have you ever been in a hospital where thousands of little gnat like flies sprouted from the shower drains? VAMC OKC! How about a hospital where  Endoscopy is performed without anesthesia? VAMC LOS ANGELES! How about setting up an approved after hours RX pickup, and THAT alone upsets some nurse so much that she screams and throws the medicine at you? VAMC LAKE CITY! Ever been in a hospital where the public restrooms had raw sewage on the floor, along with discarded hampers of clothing littering the area? VAMC MIAMI! What would you think of a Medical Center that gives Flu shots to the public one year, then refuses to give them to someone as close as a spouse the next? VAMC ORLANDO! How about a major city clinic, without a coffee shop, snack bar, cafe, or any other human comfort? VAJAX! You see I have a form of national health care, and guess what? IT SUCKS! So along with it, I continue to pay my $500+ dollars a month for private insurance just to give myself an alternative. Stephendare has been with me when I stopped in to pick up medicine at the VA, so having walked around the place, he should be able to tell you how inviting it is.

Mica is the least of our worries right now, but your cure by attack, is nothing I want to deal with.

As for private rail carriers with passenger services or private operators on our railroads, one only has to look at the cruise trains in the Pacific Northwest then draw your own conclusions: http://www.rockymountaineer.com/  or  http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Station/Station_Page&code=JAX  or
a private operator on a State owned railroad: http://www.princesslodges.com/alaska_rail_tours_learn.htm
OCKLAWAHA

Yeah, except Mica is a human, and JTA or Amtrak are government corporations.

Supporting the Rand report on the VA, because it fits an agenda, is irresponsible to our veterans. This system still needs some serious house cleaning.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 06, 2009, 06:46:51 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 05:15:03 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 05:04:32 PM
Btw, if I was in position to give an entity taxpayer money and they didn't have their act together, I'd limit the amount of money given to them as well.  If we had done that locally over the last decade, the city would not be in the financial situation it is in today. 

In an earlier post in this thread I showed you the miracle of what happens when you adequately fund a government entity such as the VA,......it is now THE best healthcare system in the US, outperforming any other.

Keeping Amtrak anorexic isn't a prescription for success. I personally believe that who you support to represent your area makes a huge difference for your area, in particular when it comes to transportation.

Faye, watching this from the sidelines is hilarious. Your information seems taken completely from web searches of newspaper and media story's. Your mention of our own TU reporter Larry Hannan, as one of your "sources" demonstrates how far off this issue of rail you really are. MJ felt we had to do a SECOND run of a piece we did on the various modes of rail. We did this partly because Larry, like you, was mixing Amtrak, Light Rail, Commuter Rail, and small puppy's into a single group.

Just for the record, I'm well aware of the difference between Amtrak, Light Rail, and Commuter Rail. As a matter of fact I did not own a car till I was 24 years old, because guess what,..........I used public transportation including light rail, commuter rail, and National rail exclusively. You see, I grew up in a rail culture.

When was the last time you used public transportation other than for pleasure,.........eating in those restaurant cars you so like to post about?

I'm sorry you have personal issues with the VA. But acknowledgment from the conservative Rand corp that people are getting the proper treatment and follow-up and far better than any other US healthcare system, in a statistically significant study is far more relevant than your anecdotal individual experience.

Quoteauthor=FayeforCure link=topic=6013.msg95630#msg95630 date=1252281837]

Just for the record, I'm well aware of the difference between Amtrak, Light Rail, and Commuter Rail. As a matter of fact I did not own a car till I was 24 years old, because guess what,..........I used public transportation including light rail, commuter rail, and National rail exclusively. You see, I grew up in a rail culture.

QuoteWhen was the last time you used public transportation other than for pleasure,.........eating in those restaurant cars you so like to post about?

Based on your referral in several posts about Jacksonville - Miami "commuter rail," on the FEC RY this is interesting.

Pulling rank on me won't work, I didn't own a car until I landed in Coral Ridge, 2 years ago. Last time I ate aboard a train, in Oklahoma-Texas about a month ago. BTW, those "restaurant cars" are called dining cars in a railroad culture.[/quote]

QuoteI'm sorry you have personal issues with the VA. But acknowledgment from the conservative Rand corp that people are getting the proper treatment and follow-up and far better than any other US healthcare system, in a statistically significant study is far more relevant than your anecdotal individual experience.

Anecdotal? Ask any veteran, I think we all have horror stories. As a life member of DAV I can speak to us constantly in a struggle to get funding for the most basic VA services. Jacksonville, arguably with a huge retired military family, doesn't even have a hospital, or overnight surgery center. Orlando, Tampa, West Palm Beach, Miami, Gainesville and LAKE CITY all have full VA hospitals. This is another failure that needs to be addressed locally. Specialty clinic's? We finally got some new specialty clinics, but they are not connected to the main VA clinic, in fact they are in a new building in the middle of an office park at JTB and I-95. So many of our veterans don't or can't drive and this is creating a real hardship for them. The clinics downtown are running anywhere from 3 months to as much as 5-6 months out for appointments. God forbid that they are treating a life threatening condition. That is "my" VA experience, in 5 states, from Oregon to Florida, call it what you want.  

OCKLAWAHA

I'm pretty sure you will find him (Mica) strong on local, weak on national Amtrak. Stronger on private operators then anyone else around. BTW, wasn't one of the private operators with your table at the Orlando show? Wonder if we could get their interest in JAX? Do you still have his card?  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 03:31:35 PM

QuoteIn the current round of funding for Amtrak, there are no provisions for Jacksonville and our Transit Agency at our behest has been  working to get Jacksonville included.

That's a local issue.  Mica has nothing to do with getting Amtrak back in DT Jax.  His district does not even extend that far.  DT Jax is Brown's territory.  

congressional District 7
(http://www.house.gov/mica/Images/DistMap108.gif)

Nevertheless, if we can't convince Amtrak to move back DT as a part of the plan, we still benefit on the FEC corridor by them having to make track capacity improvements and adding a station in St. Augustine to get underway.

Hmmm, DT Orlando is also not in Mica's district either, but the Orlando folks seem to turn to Mica to help them get federal funding for their projects!

QuoteOrlando, Orange County Resurrect Light Rail Idea
POSTED: 7:12 pm EST February 14, 2005
UPDATED: 7:32 pm EST February 14, 2005


Orlando and Orange County are teaming up to bring the idea of a light-rail train back to life.

It would connect Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center on South International Drive, and then run along Interstate 4 and into downtown Orlando.

The idea of a light rail train was approved by Orlando but rejected by Orange County Commissioners in 1998, mostly over cost issues, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.

Now, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and County Mayor Rich Crotty have written letters to U.S. Rep. John Mica, asking him to obtain federal funding to get the idea going again.

An environmental study would cost an estimated $6 million, design would cost $120 million and it would cost about $1.2 billion to build.


To comment on this story, send an e-mail to Greg Fox.

http://www.wesh.com/travelgetaways/4196924/detail.html

And in an earlier post it was clear Mica wanted to dock Tampa for their lack of support for his Central Florida pet commuter rail project.

So Mica definitely should be a factor in Jax, even though he neglects Jax.

So Ock, Mica is NOT strong on local rail, when it comes to Jax. In fact he is MIA altogether for Jax.

Faye, he was just here a few months ago, making a speech to the "N. FL. Women in Transportation Conference."
Mike Miller, James Boyle, and several others from JTA were present. I was there also. Before the meeting I went down to the front and had a short chat, which ended after I took Mica up the stairs to introduce him to the newer JTA guys and gals.

He slipped his personal business card in my hand, with his home information on it. With some frustration, after our transit talk on Streetcars, Commuter Rail, Skyways and such, he said, "Bob, bring me SOMETHING from these people, we need mass transit projects now, not 10 years from now." He indicated to me that both he and representative Brown, would work together to get funding for our plans, if we would just MAKE plans.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 11:31:05 PM
Hmmm, DT Orlando is also not in Mica's district either, but the Orlando folks seem to turn to Mica to help them get federal funding for their projects!

You do know that the Sunrail project extends 61 miles?  A good portion of phase 1 (Deland, Deltona, Seminole County, etc.) falls within District 7. So what is the complaint again?

I don't know what the controversy is either.  Btw, how was your talk with Mica today? Any update on Sunrail's progress?  It could really make our commuter rail picture a lot clearer.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2009, 02:00:47 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 06, 2009, 11:31:05 PM
Hmmm, DT Orlando is also not in Mica's district either, but the Orlando folks seem to turn to Mica to help them get federal funding for their projects!

You do know that the Sunrail project extends 61 miles?  A good portion of phase 1 (Deland, Deltona, Seminole County, etc.) falls within District 7. So what is the complaint again?

Huh? Did you even look to see if the article was about your pet project Sunrail? NO, it was about LRT. Please read again:

QuoteOrlando, Orange County Resurrect Light Rail Idea
POSTED: 7:12 pm EST February 14, 2005
UPDATED: 7:32 pm EST February 14, 2005


Orlando and Orange County are teaming up to bring the idea of a light-rail train   back to life.

It would connect Orlando International Airport to the Orange County Convention Center on South International Drive, and then run along Interstate 4 and into downtown Orlando.

The idea of a light rail train   was approved by Orlando but rejected by Orange County Commissioners in 1998, mostly over cost issues, WESH NewsChannel 2 reported.

Now, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and County Mayor Rich Crotty have written letters to U.S. Rep. John Mica, asking him to obtain federal funding to get the idea going again.

An environmental study would cost an estimated $6 million, design would cost $120 million and it would cost about $1.2 billion to build.

http://www.wesh.com/travelgetaways/4196924/detail.html

Be careful what you accuse me of,.....it doesn't become you to say something that isn't.

I see we just can't get off Mica's jock strap.  My earlier point about moving Amtrak back to DT is that the plan to bring Amtrak to the FEC is in place.  However, moreso than going after Mica to jump on board, we need a push from our local officials.  For all we know, if JTA and Mayor Peyton went to Mica to ask him to back a plan to get the Amtrak station back to the Prime Osborn, he could support such a plan.  Because its a move that benefits commuter rail which is something that's right down Mica's alley.  At least Orlando's local officials have the vision to lobby for the support of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee Republican Leader.  Can anyone confirm that Mayor Peyton has asked for a similar request made by Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer and was rejected?

Don't know but its a weird picture to imagine.

Ugh! Retch! Puke!

If Orlando is planning to use I-4 for LRT rather then CSX or another right-of-way (OUC, Medians etc) then the Light Rail, is going to have the same trouble attracting riders as HSR. Under I-4 downtown might work.
Downtown via CSX/under I-4 - to Tradeport area - to OIA. Florida just doesn't get it that people don't live, work or walk along freeways...it's illegal!

OCKLAWAHA

Support or Attack? Either way it is ugly. The daily Mica attacks have become a strain, and it appears that there is no relief in sight. Run for office if you want, but run on YOUR ideas, and ideals, and not half way up someone else's butt. Explain why your view are different and leave it at that.

Peace Stephen, this would be welcome.  

OCKLAWAHA

This is an honest question...I reacted a couple of days ago with disdain for Amtrak. But, how many people use it? I am 43 and I am not sure if I know (or have ever known) anyone that has taken even one trip. I have never heard anyone say so. That may have to do with the logistics of it (now and then)....Just asking.

Interestingly enough, I find the bar (err lounge?) car kind of fascinating when I see it pass while I am waiting at the tracks. Once I am independently wealthy, I could take a month long trip up the East coast.  ;D

FY 2008 - 28.7 million riders.

Quote from: Lunican on September 07, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
FY 2008 - 28.7 million riders.

to put that in perspective, airline traffic was 809 million, US only

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/2009/bts019_09/html/bts019_09.html

Quote from: stephendare on September 07, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
Ive used it a hell of a lot, David.  It ended up being cheaper and more convenient to travel back and forth to Boca by train than by car.

How would you rate the experience (cost aside), Stephen (vs bus or airline) ?

Quote from: stephendare on September 07, 2009, 09:32:35 PM
The only national busline that gets it right is Green Tortoise, but they don't have much out here on this coast.

Please tell me more about Green Tortoise. I couldn't find much out much just googling it. It came back with hostels etc. in SF...and the Pacific NW. We are going out to that area soon and I would like to know more.

Kinda looks like an "Express" straight out of Haight-Ashbury! That was an interesting period of time.....what goes around comes around@

Steve....whatever works big guy! My wife could not handle it but it does look like it would be fun! About the only part of it that worry's me would be the lack of retention devices......I have this thing about moving vehicles of whatever kind and not being anchored securely......thats just me!

QuoteThe Essential Air Services program, funded through the Office of the Secretary, provides about $110 million a year to subsidize scheduled air service to small communities that otherwise would go without.

This one runs up bills of up to $600 dollars, per ticket, per passenger. Sort of makes that $25 per Amtrak passenger pale doesn't it.  

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks for the info Stephen. Wifey ain't going for the communal thing though. Very interesting and hippie I must say.  :)

QuoteAnd its not just for hippies anymore either.

OH SHIT! Guess I'll stay home then...

Can you imagine what would happen if the Florida HSR folks got together with these bus folks?

FAR OUT MAN!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on September 07, 2009, 09:20:35 PM
Federal Subsidies for Aviation

Many claim that our aviation system is self-sustaining.  That could not be further from the truth.  There are, of course, also substantial subsidies for other levels of government, but this document refutes this specific argument.

FAA Operations get general funds as well as funding from the aviation trust fund. The general fund level was $3.01 billion in FY 2004. The FY 2007 enacted level is $2.703 billion, or 32.4% of the FAA Operations total of $8.331 billion. DOD and other government aircraft are often assumed to be responsible for just 15% of FAA Operations costs—that would be $1.25 billion in FY 2007, implying for this year a subsidy of $1.453 billion to private sector aviation (2.703 less 1.25). More than half of all control tower take offs and landings are general aviation (including business aircraft) and almost half of en route control center traffic is general aviation.

Airports benefit from tax-free financing. Robert J. Aaronson, then Director of Aviation at the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, said “It is inconceivable that a modern airport, which under the existing tax code includes such public service accommodations as terminals and their related retail stores, runways, hangars, loading facilities, cargo buildings, parking areas and maintenance bases, as well as appropriately sized in-flight meal facilities, hotels and meeting facilities, could be provided on any adequate scale by taxable financing” (Aviation Week & Space Technology, Sept. 16, 1985).

The FAA’s Airport Improvement Program includes noise mitigation funds given directly to homeowners who live within certain footprints near airports where noise exceeds a designated decibel level.  These funds are used to improve the sound-proofing of homes through window replacements and other noise mitigation procedures – basically a program to allow noisier jets and more frequent flights.

The Essential Air Services program, funded through the Office of the Secretary, provides about $110 million a year to subsidize scheduled air service to small communities that otherwise would go without.

As a consequence of 9/11, the FAA Aviation Insurance Program offers below-market rates for airlines’ war risk, hull loss and passenger, crew, and third-party liability insurance. The sunset date for this program has been postponed several times, most recently from August 31, 2007, to December 31, 2007.

The federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board was formed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks “to oversee $10 billion in assistance [loan guarantees] earmarked by Congress to help the struggling [airline] industry” (NYT, Mar. 2, 2004). The largest loan, $900 million, went to US Airways, Inc., in March 2003, enabling the airline to close on a $1 billion loan.  ATSB’s last news release (May 31, 2006) states that it “still holds warrants in World Airways. The ATSB currently has no outstanding loan guarantees, but the Board has a direct loan of $86 million to ATA Airlines as a result of the airline’s bankruptcy.”

Federal airline security takes about $3 billion a year in general funds:

   1. TSA spends about $5 billion (out of its $6.4 billion budget) on aviation, of which general funds cover about $2.3 billion, and passenger and airline fees the remaining $2.7 billion.
   2. Federal Air Marshal Service’s budget is $722 million.

Federal subsidies for airline pensions have taken at least two forms—federal takeover of some airlines’ plans, and special breaks for most of the other airlines.

   1. The federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation in recent years absorbed terminated pension plans from UAL Corp., parent of United Airlines, and US Airways Group Inc. (WSJ, July 31, 2006). The US Airways pension takeover involved PBGC taking over $2.3 billion in unfunded pension liabilities (WSJ, Nov. 3, 2005). As for UAL, “by the time the airline turned over its plan to the pension agency, the shortfall was $10.2 billion” (NYT, July 31, 2005). This was “the largest corporate pension default in history” (Washington Post, May 11, 2005). Even before these two takeovers, “claims by airlines accounted for 20% of [PBGC’s] total claims, according to the agency, and five of the 10 largest claims have come from struggling airlines” (San Francisco Chronicle, Dec. 31, 2004).
   2. The 2006 pension reform law gave special breaks to airlines. “Northwest and Delta are getting an astonishing 17 years in which to fund their pension promises, and they are allowed to assume that the investment returns on their pension assets will be 8.85%—about a third higher than other companies are permitted to assume. American and Continental are being treated less generously, though they still get away with looser provisions than companies in other industries” (Washington Post editorial, August 2, 2006).
   3. This year, “a pension measure tucked into last month’s Iraq war spending bill is causing some leading members of Congress to complain that American Airlines got a break worth almost $2 billion without proper scrutiny. The measure will allow American to greatly reduce its payments into its pension fund over next 10 years; at end of 2006, fund had assets of $8.5 billion and needed additional $2.5 billion to cover all obligations; new provision will allow American to recalculate those numbers, so that shortfall disappears and plan looks fully funded; Continental, along with small number of regional airlines, will also be able to take advantage of provision” (New York Times, June 21, 2007).

The FAA issues aircraft registrations, pilot medical and airline certifications, and pilot licenses for free or well below cost, a subsidy of at least $5 million a year for commercial and general aviation. [Source: CBO & GAO]

Federal law provides many tax breaks for general aviation, such as allowing companies who purchase small aircraft to immediately expense 30% of the purchase price during the first year of ownership and to depreciate an additional 50% of their new equipment in the first year of ownership for tax purposes. Also, businesses can deduct the operating expenses of their aircraft, including their aviation fuel costs, from their income taxes, garnering a further subsidy.

National Weather Service reports are public record, available to the airlines at no cost.

Among all forms of transportation, aviation enjoys disproportionate benefits from military research and development. Also, NASA spends $700 million to $1 billion each year on aviation-related research, much of which directly benefits general aviation.

Arguably, aviation also receives huge indirect subsidies from the Highway Trust Fund and general funds in the form of highway and transit projects at airports. Most such projects are smaller—local access road or bus projects—but still big in the aggregate. Some projects are huge, for example, the Dulles Access Road, a 14-mile freeway exclusively for highway access to the airport in Northern Virginia, and the proposed $5 billion WMATA rail extension to Dulles.

Historically, “Airport and airway development costs incurred prior to the assessment of user charges in 1971 have been treated as sunk costs, none of which have been or will be paid for by air carriers and other system users…these sunk costs total $15.8 billion” (U.S. Department of Transportation, Study of Federal Aid to Rail Transportation, January, 1977 [Secretary Coleman under President Ford]).

Air passengers paid no ticket tax at all from 1963 to 1970. Prior to 1963, they did pay the federal passenger ticket tax imposed during World War II, but the federal government was investing in air facilities at almost five times the rate at which air ticket tax revenues were collected. Meanwhile, rail passengers’ wartime ticket tax—along with many other taxes railroads paid to all levels of government—went into general funds and sometimes into investing in air and road facilities.

Sure aviation is subsidised, name anything in this country that isn't.  The difference is people actually fly on airplanes.

I think Stephen's point is if you subsidize rail in a similar fashion, you'll have the same or better results.  As for the comparison, flying is great unless your trips happen to be around 200 miles or less.  Intercity rail can be superior in this arena with proper investment.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2009, 07:06:55 AM
I think Stephen's point is if you subsidize rail in a similar fashion, you'll have the same or better results.  As for the comparison, flying is great unless your trips happen to be around 200 miles or less.  Intercity rail can be superior in this arena with proper investment.

This is correct. And let me add that it behooves citizens to understand who it is that truly believes in public transportation as a service Government should be subsidizing. Only those who BELIEVE in government's role to facilitate the achievement of individual opportunities, (not just to facilitate corporations) are those that can be trusted as leaders in achieving a functional public transportation system.

Those who are hostile to governnment's role in anything but national defense and subsidies to private corporations, are just not up to the job.

^Agreed - think about this:  When considering flying or driving to cities like West Palm, Orlando, Tampa, Savannah, and even to a degree Atlanta, there is a timewaste when flying because of security, etc.  However, with a intercity rail plan, generally you can arrive 15 minutes before the train leaves (less if you have tickets in hand), and be there in the same amount of time.

I did not realize Jacksonville is Amtrak's Southeast HQ or that they spent over 1.3 mil in town in 08 on facilities.

Here is the link to there 08 Florida fact sheet.
http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/FLORIDA08.pdf (http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/factsheets/FLORIDA08.pdf)

Before coming to this site, I didn't realize Jacksonville had Amtrak sevice at all.

I have researched a bit, and I find it is cheaper form my family to take a vacation via Amtrak than to fly or drive.

That is most certaily noteworthy, and more importantly it is almost criminal that such knowledge is not out in the public eye.

I like the Idea of a newly reopened downtown Amtrack terminal. Trains are cool, fun ........AND CHEAPER????!!

Thanks MJ!

Quote from: Lunican on September 06, 2009, 12:22:57 PM

John Mica at Jacksonville Terminal speaking about the benefits of commuter rail.

Commuter Rail Demonstration visits Jacksonville (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-commuter-rail-demonstration-visits-jacksonville)

Lunican, I don't know how I missed your post. No doubt Mica will go stomping to promote a private company.

Problem is Colorado Railcar was run by a scam artist by the name of Tom Rader.

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42360&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=45#p587125

They've gone bankrupt after milking Florida out of millions of dollars.

Conveniently the announcement came after the 2008 elections.

Faye, how much did Florida lose to Colorado Railcar?

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 08, 2009, 08:59:30 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2009, 07:06:55 AM
I think Stephen's point is if you subsidize rail in a similar fashion, you'll have the same or better results.  As for the comparison, flying is great unless your trips happen to be around 200 miles or less.  Intercity rail can be superior in this arena with proper investment.

This is correct. And let me add that it behooves citizens to understand who it is that truly believes in public transportation as a service Government should be subsidizing. Only those who BELIEVE in government's role to facilitate the achievement of individual opportunities, (not just to facilitate corporations) are those that can be trusted as leaders in achieving a functional public transportation system.

Those who are hostile to governnment's role in anything but national defense and subsidies to private corporations, are just not up to the job.

You have to love this stuff!!  do people really talk like that?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
Faye, how much did Florida lose to Colorado Railcar?

I can answer that, but that's not the main point. I personally think it's a conflict of interest for him to be promoting a particular company on tax-payer time.

Understood, but can you answer it?  I'd like to know.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3302/3327135744_60e2a4aece.jpg)
It's a BUS? It's a Train? What on earth? This could be one of the daily or weekend treks to Gainesville, and UF to JAX.  

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 12, 2009, 09:13:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
Faye, how much did Florida lose to Colorado Railcar?

I can answer that, but that's not the main point. I personally think it's a conflict of interest for him to be promoting a particular company on tax-payer time. Faye, you need to back off on this subject, CRC was the ONLY builder of North American/USA rail passenger cars in the last decade. It's not like Mica, or YOU would have had a chance to change it.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2009, 09:25:27 PM
Understood, but can you answer it?  I'd lhisike to know.

(http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p278/BruceMcF/rail/tmp1-1.gif)
One of many planning maps for Amtrak service. Note the routes to Atlanta, Birmingham and the Gulf Coast, as well as restoration of the Central Florida (OCALA) route! This is from planning and does NOT equal the routes created by all expansion. However Gainesville to Shands as well as the Jacksonville Terminal would probably be bursting at the seams.

Okay guys, I understand this delima if Faye, is our representative in Congress or Senate or , ,if it's Mica, or someone else. Bottom line, the Colorado Railcar DMU, was the result of a bunch of Pseudo Rail car builders gathering together and turning out a few first class scenic coaches. As often happens with new companies, they jumped into the DUM/RDC void and tried to sell themselves as the "New BUDD COMPANY." Budd having introduced the stainless steel streamlined coach in the 1930's, at Red Lion, PA.. The ONLY downfall was TOO MUCH - TOO FAST. Otherwise they would be considering shops in Jacksonville. So would Edwards Rail Car, (anyone at the C of C should take note and start the recruitment). In the end the many demonstrations but lack of hard orders killed the small company that held so much promise.

I admit I wasn't impressed with their product and did a story on the subject. I took one of those DMU's up to 80 MPH north of Pompano Beach, and it sounded horrible. My article was largely to get rid of the Plastic Airline interior and go back to rail basics of stainless steel and hardwoods.

The concept of the DMU of RDC (Diesel Motor Unit or Rail Diesel Car,) is a self propelled Amtrak like coach that could take the run from Gainesville to Jacksonville. Such units might prove financially sound in the running of the Jax - Tallahassee route as well. As well as any WEST COAST mainline that might be rebuilt, which would ease Tampa's woes.

ONE that is fair MUST CUT SOME SLACK here to the Republicans and Democrats that have been toying with Amtrak for 30+ years. Until recently, we haven't had a car builder in America! We had a very short list of Locomotive Builders, and our Bus Industry has taken such a beating as to almost be off the radar for ANYONE!

The interesting part is how do we save these industries? How does the Chamber of Commerce recruit them to build their shops here? Free rent in Springfield Yard? Hey, It COULD happen! The bottom line, like I have been saying all along is that Amtrak is fixing to toss an expansion at us that will boggle the mind. WE MUST BE READY!

Faye, thank you for bringing this up, we need to understand that we are sitting at 1870 again, and we can either take charge, or let Sanford, Orlando, Tampa, or Miami take it from us. We simply cannot allow Amtrak or any other carrier (Virgin Atlantic, Cruise Lines etc...) dictate terms of expansion to us. JTA, FDOT, JPA, JAA, COJ, the time to act was yesterday, shit or get off the pot!

OCKLAWAHA

Faye and Ock both have points that I must agree with! I am not sure who funded a survey regarding the I-4 corridor as being a viable point to start. Orlando to St Pete seems kinda silly to me..........why start in the middle? Then expansion would have to take place in two directions at twice the cost and seems counter productive to me! Jacksonville should be a start point, not because I live here, but because there is trackage in place for 3 directions of movement! That's just my take!

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 12, 2009, 09:13:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
Faye, how much did Florida lose to Colorado Railcar?

I can answer that, but that's not the main point. I personally think it's a conflict of interest for him to be promoting a particular company on tax-payer time.

Faye, you would be much more credible if it didn't seem like you were always ripping Mica about something

She's campaigning. In fairness, she's going with what works.

Should she gain traction, you'll be seeing the same from Mica.

If she is campaigning, her argument would be much stronger by promoting her position, vision and goals.  Continuing to slam someone else without fully selling your vision and platform will lead to that person ending up choking on their opponent's dust, come election day.  Look to McCain and Palin for proof of this phenomenon.

You make good points. It seems demagoguery would be less effective on a forum such as this.

WHen you mention McCain/Palin they had no platform. Obama used slogans and emotion to win, while equating McCain to Bush, who was his Mica, in this comparison.

Faye is following this "strategery".

Quote from: buckethead on September 13, 2009, 10:50:40 AM
She's campaigning. In fairness, she's going with what works.

Should she gain traction, you'll be seeing the same from Mica.

Thanks buckethead. I think people are quite informed about where I stand.

Though I fell short, I believe with almost 150,000 votes, much more than Mica received in 2006, I established quite some credibility.

The real problem is mis-placed credibility, such as when Peyton ran for mayor and people thought he could run Jacksonville, because he ran Gate.

This kind of "surface" thinking leads to more tax-payer waste than anything else. The mis-placed credibility was eventually revealed in Peyton's case, because there were people who believe in accountability to the tax-payer.

In that same way I enjoy engaging in a conversation that at times will reveal information with local impact, that feels uncomfortable to some who prefer "surface" thinking,....... but as an educator I like to be thought provoking.

I am skeptical when poeple go from Business to government. If I'm making millions in the private sector, why would I be motivated to take such a paycut? Advantage in being connected or in control?

I am equally skeptical of carrer politicians. Advantage in being connected or in control?

The scariest of all is the person coming from a charitable cause.

Can there actually be a good politician? I invite someone to persuade me of this.   If so, how can an average person such as myself know, without having to become politically active?

Everyone cannot become political to the degree of having first hand knowledge of all issues. Even politicians.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
Faye, how much did Florida lose to Colorado Railcar?

I'll post an article that summarizes the goings on with Colorado Railcar in Florida:

QuoteCommuter Rail Falters Again As Supplier Fails
By LINDSAY PETERSON

lpeterson@tampatrib.com

Published: January 11, 2009


When Florida Department of Transportation officials chose a Colorado company early last year to build 10 railcars for its new Orlando commuter system, they knew the company was in financial trouble.

Nevertheless, the department moved forward with the $45 million contract, and is having to scramble now that Colorado Railcar went out of business at the end of the year. The state had to rewrite the railcar proposal to get new companies to bid.

The last-minute change is one more stumble in the state's controversial efforts to bring commuter rail to Orlando. Last May, state lawmakers rejected an agreement with CSX Transportation, the company planning to sell tracks to the state for the $1.2 billion, 61-mile system. The agreement would have freed CSX from responsibility if one of its trains caused a commuter accident while using the tracks.

State DOT officials are working on getting the CSX track purchase approved this year. They said they didn't realize how serious Colorado Railcar's problems were until October, when the company failed to provide the performance bond the state required.

The state originally advertised the railcar bid invitation in February. It was so narrowly written that Colorado Railcar was the only company that qualified. In a Tampa Tribune story about the purchase, state officials said the company produced precisely the kind of railcar it wanted for the Orlando system. It's a fuel-efficient vehicle that combines the engine and seating in one unit but is also sturdy enough to withstand a collision with a freight train. The revised bid is for the more traditional locomotive-hauled train.

One of Colorado Railcar's proponents is U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, also a major supporter of the Orlando commuter rail system. Mica helped Florida get federal grants in 2003 and 2004 to buy six Colorado Railcar vehicles for South Florida's commuter rail system - with plans that the railcars be moved to Orlando later. They cost $20 million, which included money from the state.

Florida is still waiting for one of its six cars, said Bonnie Arnold, of South Florida's TriRail. "At last report, it was in Texas, on its way to us." But it's unfinished. It still needs interior modifications, including electrical work, she said.

Arnold is also concerned about how the specially built cars will be maintained, with the company out of business. She said five Colorado Railcar maintenance workers based in South Florida will likely be kept on as employees either of TriRail or the state DOT.

Mica defended his support for Colorado Railcar in an earlier Tribune story, saying it had created an innovative fuel-efficient vehicle. He knew the company was having business problems but didn't know the details, he said.

The company's founder, Tom Rader, gave Mica's political campaigns a total of $3,000 in 2004 and 2005. Mica said the contributions had nothing to do with his support for the company.

Florida's DOT was the first transportation agency to buy commuter rail vehicles from Colorado Railcar. A Portland, Ore., agency, TriMet, followed with a $17 million order for four cars. But it learned in mid-2007 that the company was behind schedule and having trouble paying suppliers, said Tuck Wilson, TriMet's special counsel managing the project.

In early 2008 problems at Colorado Railcar were so bad, TriMet took over the company's finances to ensure the completion of its order. Wilson said he notified Florida officials and asked whether they wanted to join the receivership, but the state declined.

TriMet ended up getting all its railcars, but it cost the agency an additional $5.5 million.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/11/na-commuter-rail-falters-again-as-supplier-fails/

To use Ock's lingo: I smell a RAT.

Mica's push for Colorado Railcar may have been a catalyst for Orlando to drop prioritizing the revival of its light rail plans:

QuoteOrlando, Fla.-Area Leaders Test Ride New Commuter Rail Car.
Free with registration - Orlando Sentinel - AccessMyLibrary.com - Oct 26, 2002
John Mica, R-Winter Park, and Lynx, the area's transit agency, to show off a new commuter-rail car manufactured in Colorado. The event cost Lynx about $5000 ...

thelakelander,.......some more background on how Colorado Railcar came about with Mica's help:

QuoteOne of the Colorado Railcar lobbyists was Duane Gibson, former chief aid to U.S. Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, who was chairman of the House Transportation Committee from 2001 to 2007. Gibson continued to represent the company after he left the law firm.

Mica said he was never approached by any lobbyist about the company. If anything, Mica said, he approached Gibson after Gibson left the transportation committee.

"I spoke to Duane about Colorado Railcar," Mica said. "I can't remember if they were looking for someone to represent them or what." He also can't remember precisely when it was, but he said he is sure Gibson was not at Greenberg, Traurig at the time.

In late 2003, the federal government picked the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority to carry out the demonstration project described in the congressional earmark. The authority then picked Colorado Railcar to provide the vehicles.

Despite being credited for setting up the Colorado Railcar project in South Florida, Mica now says his role was only to encourage the House Appropriations Committee to pursue the DMU technology. He said he did not ask for money for any individual company. Nevertheless, he was happy that Colorado Railcar was eventually selected, he said.

"I was encouraging that Colorado Railcar be demonstrated anywhere in the United States," Mica said.

In 2006, when Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, CSX officials and Mica announced the plans to buy 61 miles of CSX tracks for the Orlando area commuter system, the group rode a Colorado Railcar DMU into Orlando.
DOT officials say several companies were interested in the $45 million state contract advertised in February, though in the end only Colorado Railcar submitted a bid.

One of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant. It was planning to build cars for the Raleigh, N.C., commuter system until federal funding for that project fell through. Its cars, however, have only one level, and Florida officials said they need bilevel cars for the Orlando system.

Another company, Siemens, was also interested and proposed scheduling freight and commuter trains at different times so the state could use the company's lighter DMU. But the state said no, said Siemens' Frank Guzzo.

"There could have been other ways to approach the project. We had offered an alternative," Guzzo said. But the state "was fixated on this one approach."

QuoteTom Rader founded Colorado Railcar and was removed as its president this year. Since 2003, Rader and his company have reported spending nearly $300,000 on lobbyists and federal campaign contributions. Rader gave Mica's political campaigns a total of $3,000 for 2004 and 2005.

Mica angrily denied that lobbying or campaign contributions had anything to do with his position. "My relationship with the company has been nothing but above the board," he said. The company spent its own money developing a new kind of fuel-efficient railcar and deserves government help, Mica said.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/jul/20/200015/na-railcar-deal-missing-key-component-the-tracks/c_2/#comments

I'm familiar with the Colorado Railcar situation.  Personally, I thought it was more of a situation of trying to support what was this country's only rail manufacturer that produced FRA compliant DMUs instead of sending additional money to foreign-based companies.

QuoteThe Colorado Railcar DMU was targeted towards starter commuter rail operators with smaller passenger volumes desiring to operate shorter trains, often comparable to light rail, and with less extensive maintenance facilities. A DMU car could also pull one unpowered coach car in addition to itself. The DMU also complies with 49CFR229, commonly known as the Crashworthiness Regulation, which dictates construction of locomotives and multiple unit vehicles used on trackage shared with freight trains. This regulation precludes the operation of virtually all of the DMU's competitors, without a special waiver from the Federal Railroad Administration.

Florida Tri-Rail received a grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation to test the DMU vehicles. Contracted in 2003 and completed in 2005, a bi-level DMU demonstrator and matching bi-level coach entered regular revenue service with Tri-Rail in October, 2006. In mid 2007, Tri-Rail acquired three more bi-level DMUs and an additional bi-level non-powered coach. Now in daily revenue service, the two DMU consists have a passenger capability of roughly 560 passengers.

In 2008, Colorado Railcar also delivered three DMUs (and one unpowered coach) to the Tri-County Metropolitan Transportation District of Oregon for use on the Westside Express Service (WES) commuter rail line between Beaverton and Wilsonville, Oregon; an additional bi-level DMU to the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority; and one bi-level DMU to the Alaska Railroad to be used for a new passenger rail service serving the Chugach National Forest. Upon delivery of the DMUs to SFRTA and AKRR, Colorado Railcar ceased operations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Railcar

Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2009, 03:40:05 PM
So was it a bait and switch?

In what respect?

There was a "pretend" solicitation of bids in Florida, when as the Siemens guy said: the state "was fixated on this one approach."

Interesting to note that Colorado rejected using the Colorado Railcar DMUs for their four commuter corridors:

QuoteDetermining what type of commuter trains to run in four FasTracks corridors.

Colorado Railcar is right up U.S. 85 in Fort Lupton. The company has been pushing hard to have RTD adopt its technology. Federal crash safety rules require RTD to use heavier train cars if it shares tracks with freight trains, as would be the case on the four commuter corridors. Colorado Railcar took the lead to design a vehicle compliant with the rule.

So far, only Miami uses them. Portland, Ore., has ordered some. The company also makes passenger cars for tourist railroads such as Alaska Railways.

The cars are called DMU, for diesel multiple units. The electric trains are called EMU, or electric multiple units. The EMU models RTD would use meet the federal regulations.

RTD believes if it decides to place an order for dozens of these cars, other manufacturers would gear up to make them. Colorado Railcar has 150 workers and can put out 20 cars a year, said Arthur Rader, sales and marketing director. It has had talks with Fort Lupton about expanding the the plant to put out 40 a year.

Kemp's advocacy of the diesel plan puts him in a spotlight because his employer, Stewart & Stevenson, supplies diesel engines to Colorado Railcar.

Kemp says the engine that his company sells to Colorado Railcar, the Detroit Diesel Series 60, is being phased out because of tougher emissions standards taking effect in 2011, before RTD would get any new cars. So there's no guarantee his company would be involved down the line.

"I do definitely want it out in the open that I am a diesel person and we are a Detroit Diesel distributor," Kemp said. "But I want to make sure you understand that I don't have a preference as to what engine they use.

QuoteThe Gold Line was originally to be light rail, but railroads ruled that out because of liability concerns in the event of a collision. Arvada officials say electric commuter rail is the closest to what they were promised and the Gold Line budget already has funding for electrification.

The East Corridor airport line was originally a diesel project but the communities lobbied for electric, at a much higher cost.

"The people on the Gold Line are expecting electrification and we should provide it," said Bruce Daly, a board member from Conifer.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/may/29/diesel-lines-or-electric-rtd-divided/

The Siemens alternative would not have worked because their light weight DMU is not FRA compliant.  To run their DMUs, heavier railcars could not run on the tracks at the same time (ex. Austin Metrorail, Ottawa O-Train, New Jersey RiverLine and Oceanside Sprinter systems).  This means, freight trains and Amtrak would not have been allowed to run between Jax and Orlando during Sunrail's daytime operation hours.

Btw, I guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

(http://www.trainnet.org/Libraries/Lib003/IC3_1.JPG)
Adtranz, Flexliner, showing its stuff in the Canada, (and Amtrak too).

23.6 feet Lakelander and Faye. That's what would be needed to get the job done. Frankly, I can see why Mica or anyone else was "hooked" on the Colorado Rail Car, at that time. IT WAS THE ONLY AMERICAN DESIGNED AND BUILT DIESEL PASSENGER RAIL VEHICLE MADE! We have simply lost all of our builders, and now, thanks partly to a huge order cancellation by the State of Vermont, CRC has bit the dust.

We now have a couple of foreign builders in the states, mostly geared to LRT/Streetcars. The best hope might be the Danish FLEXLINER as a commuter vehicle, as used by the Israeli State Railroads.
As most of you know, these grants come with a BUY AMERICAN clause, so "Mica" or "FAYE" or anyone else would not have had an alternative.

Faye, when you spend all of your time tossing dirt on Mica, as TUFSU1 said, it really damages your credibility. Had you known that the CRC was the only US built rail car, I'm sure you would have done the same thing. Cheer for the home team. As for Tom Rader? Do you know Tom? I do, and to call him a scam artist is a huge stretch. Tom was a railroad buff that grew his business from cleaning rail cars, to rebuilding passenger cars, to the creation of the DMU of CRC. YES, it was a shoestring budget and when several orders were canceled Tom was left without a hell of a lot of wiggle room. A lot of really fine people went down with Colorado Rail Car, and none of them faults Tom, it is unfair and ignorant to do so.

(http://www.trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picMILW56d.jpg)
Some of Colorado Rail Car's Early Work, delivered to Alaska.

(http://www.trainweb.org/ultradomes/trcx/rta_dmu3.jpg)
The Florida, USDOT, FDOT, TRIRAIL, tests of the CRC.

OCKLAWAHA

I would wonder if there is a possibility that CRC would come to life under new ownership! I mean if you build it they might come! Prove the concept and look to people with vision...........even if they are not in the US of A!

the folks in Portland spent some extra $ just to make sure they got their railcars delivered

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 14, 2009, 05:10:38 AM
I would wonder if there is a possibility that CRC would come to life under new ownership! I mean if you build it they might come! Prove the concept and look to people with vision...........even if they are not in the US of A!

There has been some talk, but JUST talk so far. Meanwhile the rail shop in Canada has very nearly bought up every RDC car ever built and they have started manufacturing them. They also have plans to turnout new cars if things tick upward. Time will tell. BTW, the manufacture is far more advance then "rebuilding" would be. Basically in rebuilding, the entire car is upgraded, mechanic's checked out, new controls etc. Remanfacture on the other had uses NOTHING but the car frame, sides and roof, EVERYTHING else is brand new.   

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 14, 2009, 08:06:34 AM
the folks in Portland spent some extra $ just to make sure they got their railcars delivered

tufsu1, so true:

QuoteIn early 2008 problems at Colorado Railcar were so bad, TriMet took over the company's finances to ensure the completion of its order. Wilson said he notified Florida officials and asked whether they wanted to join the receivership, but the state declined.

TriMet ended up getting all its railcars, but it cost the agency an additional $5.5 million.

TriMet is still getting a lot of flack on this,.......but in FL it's ok to waste tax-payer monies ( especially when a US Congressman has spent 8 years stomping for a particular private company).

Of course everybody knew that Colorado Railcar was the only American company that built DMUs,..........but Colorado chose to go with EMUs, and Vermont canceled its order. So obviously there were other options out there, diesel or not.

Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2009, 11:47:55 AM
Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

Well, this has nothing to do with apples to oranges:

QuoteOne of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant. It was planning to build cars for the Raleigh, N.C., commuter system until federal funding for that project fell through. Its cars, however, have only one level, and Florida officials said they need bilevel cars for the Orlando system.

Seems many arbitrary decisions were made in favor of a predetermined outcome.

I have to agree with a previous comment you made:

QuoteI guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

Possibly a rework of the CSX deal could have freed up sufficient monies for an environmentally friendlier EMU.

QuoteOne of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant.

I don't believe the FRA ever designated any Rotem DMU's as compliant with 49CFR229.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 14, 2009, 12:07:00 PM
Well, this has nothing to do with apples to oranges:

QuoteOne of the potential bidders was a Korean company, Rotem, that designs crash-worthy DMUs and has a U.S. plant. It was planning to build cars for the Raleigh, N.C., commuter system until federal funding for that project fell through. Its cars, however, have only one level, and Florida officials said they need bilevel cars for the Orlando system.

Seems many arbitrary decisions were made in favor of a predetermined outcome.

Rotem is a Korean based company and their product is not FRA compliant.  As I stated earlier, a part of the reason for backing Colorado Railcar was the fact that it was headquartered in America.

QuoteI have to agree with a previous comment you made:

QuoteI guess you could do electric commuter rail on that corridor, if the catenary were high enough, but it would be significantly higher than the CSX deal people complained about as being too expensive.

Possibly a rework of the CSX deal could have freed up sufficient monies for an environmentally friendlier EMU.

Possibly, but doubt it.  Electrifying 61 miles of track would have sent costs through the roof and service would not have been enough to justify the expense.

Crash compliant DMU's seem to be a viable alternative to electric powered units. Self contained and I assume they use standard track so existing trackage enables them to be used where ever needed. Scheduling is an issue but should be something that can be worked out. CSX has the majority of existing track in this part of the world and would probably rent/lease and long as it does not hold their scheduling up. All of the times that I have had to wait at a crossing in town turnabout is fair play!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 15, 2009, 04:58:32 AM
Crash compliant DMU's seem to be a viable alternative to electric powered units. Self contained and I assume they use standard track so existing trackage enables them to be used where ever needed. Scheduling is an issue but should be something that can be worked out. CSX has the majority of existing track in this part of the world and would probably rent/lease and long as it does not hold their scheduling up. All of the times that I have had to wait at a crossing in town turnabout is fair play!

Seems they didn't want them in Colorado for a variety of reasons:

QuoteDiesel Fastracks? Not so fast!
e-mail to a friend  | print this  |  link to this
Contributed by: Louise Benson on 10/9/2007

Did you vote for FasTracks light rail to all metro areas several years ago, along with the associated taxes? Well, if citizens of the Northwest Corridor (Denver-Boulder-Longmont) don't act fast, we will be getting diesel commuter service along these freight rail lines that virtually no community wants!

It has been less than a month since I attended a so-called public input meeting in Broomfield, during which RTD officials explained that light rail, or electric cars on freight rail tracks, was too expensive, and would not recoup building costs over 30 years. So we get "Diesel Motorized Units" (passenger/engine units the size of a large bus). Talk about bait and switch!

Because of railroad safety regulations, these diesel trains will have to blast their horns at the usual ear-splitting decibels at crossings just like the freight trains. But instead of the usual 4-5 trains per day, there will be an additional 60-75 commuter trains blasting an estimated every 15 minutes! And what about the riders who will need industrial strength hearing protection, just like the engineers?!

Diesel "rumble" and local pollution is said to be about the same as buses, but I don't believe it at least on the noise. We have trains going by about a quarter mile from our house, and sometimes it seems like they're in your backyard, while the RTD buses on the adjacent US 36 are not really audible over the cars. Sound mitigation strategies are very difficult and expensive, especially for the horn noise. Light rail is quiet, clean, and can reduce future dependence on foreign oil with alternative electric generation sources.

The frightening thing is that the RTD Board is rushing this decision on the Northwest Corridor to a final vote before people can muster a protest. And in a preliminary vote last week, all RTD Board members except the Northwest "O" district rep, John Tayer, voted in favor!

What can you do? We must delay this vote for at least 6 months to educate the public! The West Corridor squawked loud enough about their planned diesel, and got their light rail with a 24 year cost recovery.

* Contact all of your elected representatives as well as those running for office

* Contact the RTD Board at www.rtd-denver/TheBoard/index.html

* Attend and speak at the beginning of the RTD Board meeting on Tuesday, Oct. 16, 5:30 pm, at their downtown Denver headquarters at 1600 Blake St., Rooms R, T, and D (really). 2 minutes max. Be there!

UPDATE October 17: Diesel FasTracks final approval for the Northwest Corridor at last night's RTD Board meeting. Officials from Longmont, Boulder, Louisville, Broomfield and Westminster spoke enthusiastically in support, while not acknowledging the 2 to 1 public opposition collected from public meetings and communications, as documented in RTD minutes. Boulder RTD Rep Tayer's amendment to basically do their best to address noise and pollution concerns was accepted. It's a sad day for public participation when our city officials ignore us.

http://denver.yourhub.com/Boulder/Stories/Sound-Off/General-Sound-Off/Story~374938.aspx

So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 

Btw, the Vermont situation was about Amtrak replacing its Vermont corridor service trains with DMUs to save on annual O&M costs.  Part of the plan also had the service being modified to terminate in Hartford.  They ended up not doing anything and just keeping what they already had in place. 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2009, 12:01:06 PM
So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 
 

The Denver situation involved four commuter corridors including at least one that shared freight trains:

QuoteFor that reason, RTD will use heavier commuter-rail trains for fastracks corridors it will share with freight carriers, including the line to Denver ...

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12020680

The reason I'm posting the noise and pollution concerns in Colorado associated with DMUs is that those should be Florida concerns too.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2009, 11:47:55 AM
Push pull is the most typical but annual O&M costs will be higher than a self propelled vehicle.  However, I will say before throwing the CSX A line in with Denver and Vermont's plans, its best to know what their situations exactly were that led to their decisions.  The amount of freight on and ownership of these lines could make them apples to oranges comparisons.

Another cost consideration:

QuoteThe EMU has a higher capital cost and the DMU has a higher operation and maintenance cost.

http://teamtoolslive.com/northmetro/forum/index.php?topic=3.0

Also there are other possible FRA compliants DMUs to look at:

QuoteWith the demise of Colorado Railcar many have wondered what future FRA compliant DMU's might look like.........here's a glance at what might be in our future (provided we can figure out how to fund it)!

Erik

Ansaldo Breda Presentation

Bombardier Presentation

Nippon Sharyo Presentation

Stadler Presentation

Siemens Presentation

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167905

Good to see these other forums be so open-minded  ;)

None of those DMU's actually exist.

Quote from: Lunican on September 15, 2009, 01:21:24 PM
None of those DMU's actually exist.

Here is one that apparently does:

QuoteNippon Sharyo FRA Compliance
Diesel hydraulic
Nippon Sharyo is likely to bid an FRA‐compliant DMU.
Would meet Tier 4

Anyway, I personally like EMUs

Nippon Sharyo built the Chicago Metra cars and the Shinkansen. They also built EMU's for Chicago.

(http://www.n-sharyo.co.jp/business/tetsudo/images/zusametra2.jpg)
Metra Bi level EMU


(http://www.n-sharyo.co.jp/business/tetsudo/images/zusametra.jpg)
Metra Bi Level passenger car


(http://www.n-sharyo.co.jp/business/tetsudo/images/jrw500.jpg)
Shinkansen "Bullet Train"

Could one of you be so kind as to explain the acronyms used so often here?

EMU
DMU
FRA
BRT

There are more, but I can't remeber them all. I like to read this thread and monitor discussion, but somtimes find myself lost. These could help. One mention of the term, abreviated thereafter would be awesome!

Thanks.

DMU=A diesel multiple unit or DMU is a multiple unit train consisting of multiple carriages powered by one or more on-board diesel engines

FRA=Federal railroad Administration

BRT= Bus Rapid Transit
Not sure about EMU

EMU= Electric Multiple Unit

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 15, 2009, 01:26:49 PM

Quote from: Lunican on September 15, 2009, 01:21:24 PM
None of those DMU's actually exist.

Here is one that apparently does:

QuoteNippon Sharyo FRA Compliance
Diesel hydraulic
Nippon Sharyo is likely to bid an FRA‐compliant DMU.
Would meet Tier 4

Anyway, I personally like EMUs

Does this DMU currently exist?  Are these guys headquartered in the US?  As mentioned earlier, a lot of support for Colorado Railcar came from the fact that it was headquartered in America.  Now with them gone, I'm sure other options will be discussed as Sunrail progresses.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 15, 2009, 12:33:02 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2009, 12:01:06 PM
So the Denver situation was about a proposed light rail corridor possibly being replaced with DMU service.  The Orlando situation is about DMUs running on an existing freight and proposed commuter rail corridor.  Although they are two totally different animals, none of this really matters because opponents were more concerned about CSX making a profit and the liability issue than rather Colorado Railcars or something else would have been used. 
 

The Denver situation involved four commuter corridors including at least one that shared freight trains:

QuoteFor that reason, RTD will use heavier commuter-rail trains for fastracks corridors it will share with freight carriers, including the line to Denver ...

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_12020680

The reason I'm posting the noise and pollution concerns in Colorado associated with DMUs is that those should be Florida concerns too.

The Colorado Railcar was quiter, less polluting and cheaper to operate than the more popular push pull locomotive-hauled trains for commuter rail.  That was another reason, many of its backers supported it.  Nevertheless, its diesel so of course, when compared to light rail, LRT is superior on these issues.  However, this is a commuter rail system we're talking about where a significant amount of freight operations will still take place and cost concerns are more of a pressing issue (cutting down the EMU option).

By the way, I'm not hating on more expensive options like EMUs for commuter rail.  I'm just trying to keep things in perspective and how they relate to the Sunrail situation.

QuoteThe EMU has a higher capital cost and the DMU has a higher operation and maintenance cost.

How long would it take for annual O&M savings to equal the money saved on DMU capital costs? 20 or 30 years?  If one did not want to wait 20 years to afford an EMU-based system, from scratch, why not operate a significantly cheaper diesel based mode until the local support is there to upgrade, similar to what Caltran is planning to do?

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/12328091_00e6b8a7d3_o.jpg)
Typical Light Rail Scene, not your EMU train!


To  be honest the Denver RTD map, shows 9 distinct commuter corridors. The newer lines NORTH have no technology identified for operation. A single line Northwest of downtown and following much of one of those other NORTH lines, is planned to be BRT - Bus Rapid Transit. The Eastside line IS identified as using EMU - Electric Miltie Unit. One central route will be streetcar, and ALL of the others LRT - Light Rail Transit.

Sunrail already has a small DMU fleet, all CRC - Colorado Rail Car. Florida took delivery on Travail where they have been racking up the miles, waiting to go home.

Noise? Pollution? Environmental Damage? Seems to me we are not the ones that are closed minded. Railroads records on all of the above soars above Air Travel, Trucking, and most Bus operations. The Vermont deal didn't crash because of Colorado Rail Car, they actually wanted to go with CRC. This isn't even a Corridor service, rather the two regular long distance Amtrak trains that the State supports. With funds getting short, Vermont did a study on "How to save our trains." Regular Locomotive Hauled passenger trains, were stacked alongside both the CRC and the remanufactured RDC - 1950/60 vintage Rail Diesel Cars. The CRC shut down, new funding for Amtrak, seems to have taken care of the problems. BTW, the RDC wins in the fuel consumption category, the CRC for pulling power and quick sprints.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha, I couldn't find it on here but has anyone done a photo doc/history of Baldwin (tiny Duval town 20 miles to our west for the unfamiliar). Rich train history. Mostly freight train history (at least in my memory...I grew up out there in the 70's to early 80's). Some of my older relatives have told me stories that it was a pretty hot commuter train route back in the day (guessing that would have been the 1920's, 30's 40's...maybe into the 50's?). 

I took the Sunset Limited to Los Angeles back in 2005.  My round ticket fare ($250) was indeed less expensive than most airfare ($400-$500).  I recall spending less because I spent some of the difference on renting a car when I arrived on the Left Coast.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 15, 2009, 06:38:07 PM
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/12328091_00e6b8a7d3_o.jpg)
Typical Light Rail Scene, not your EMU train!


To  be honest the Denver RTD map, shows 9 distinct commuter corridors. The newer lines NORTH have no technology identified for operation. A single line Northwest of downtown and following much of one of those other NORTH lines, is planned to be BRT - Bus Rapid Transit. The Eastside line IS identified as using EMU - Electric Miltie Unit. One central route will be streetcar, and ALL of the others LRT - Light Rail Transit.

I'm aware that Denver has commuter rail corridors planned.  My comment was in response to the source Faye posted that attempted to compare LRT with commuter rail.  Its apples and oranges but now that I re-read the link, the source had no idea of what they were taking about.

Anyway, now that Denver has been introduced into the discussion, there is something interesting that they bring to the table.  This EMU commuter rail corridor is supposed to be a public-private partnership.  Similar to the Outer Beltway, a private developer is supposed to come in and pay for the construction and operation of the rail system.  I don't know if it will actually work, but its something to keep a close eye on.

Yes, Lake, this is the story I'm hearing also. Time will tell?? The EMU concept is much closer to the traditional "HEAVY RAIL" then it is light rail, and certainly neither is generally called "Commuter Rail," though if you want to be a REAL techie, they are all forms of Commuter Rail. Just look at our old NYC car on Iona, That's some damn big heavy rail.

The EMU's of Chicago, South Shore and South Bend, RR, America's last classic interurban, are freaking awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/v/mJ8KxID7eY8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
http://www.youtube.com/v/Mf9sUcIWrlI&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

Way before Dallas/Fort Worth had light rail or streetcars, the Tandy Company had the last mile or so of some of the original streetcar/Interurban. It ran from a parking lot way out near the river right into the bottom of the Tandy Tower. It was really a small fleet of 1930-40 vintage PCC cars (Presidents Conference Car, designers met with all of the electric railroad presidents to create a modern looking, lightweight, silent car that they thought would save the industry from the Streetcar Holocaust, Thus the name PCC / As an aside, I labeled the JTA "Trolleys" as Potato Chip Trucks, and today they are jokingly called PCT Trolleys now by JTA!). The ultimate insult to those grand old Tandy cars was that some tobacco barn crazys got hold of them with some lumber, metal and mobile home siding(?). They then UNDER CONTRACT, went in and one by one converted them into some nightmare version of 1970 - "Travel Trailer Modern." They HONESTLY looked like the baby died and the afterbirth lived. Taking the official Ocklawaha Rant of Rage! Our big black cat has left more creative "things" in the litter box then these abominations.

Many of the readers are really having a hard time with the rail game here in Jacksonville, sadly, when friend Faye get's her data from the newspapers, it's the worst of both worlds. News media can't even get their trains straight:

"A Tanker Exploded..." Uh, Tankers are 1. A type of ship, 2. A member of the US armored divisions
"He was driving the train"... Nobody drives a train, that is what the tracks do.
"Daytona can't wait to hear the chug of the train," .. REALLY? I didn't know Amtrak would be steam powered.
"The body was found on a flatbed railcar..." You got it wrong buddy, flatbeds are semi trailers, its a FLAT CAR.
"The president rode the caboose to Washington..." Anyone who ever stepped in the Georgia 300 would NEVER make this mistake again! How about "The president elect rode to Washington in a Pullman Palace Car..."

See what I mean Lake, Lunican, Stephendare... You guys are great studies, just give us some time to convert the whole city...

Since I'm ranting: Here's two more that bug me like finger nails on a chalk board!

"We have an ACCIDENT WORKING in the Northbound inner lane of I95 at JTB..." Damn it people I have seen 10,000 accidents, but I have NEVER seen one WORKING!

OR this classic:

"There is a semi trailer jackknifed at US1 and Emerson..." Does ANYBODY know what a "jackknifed" accident is?
Does anyone else know that the Jack Knife is a backing movement by large 18 wheel rigs to spot a trailer in a very tight spot?

Okay, guess I'm done.  

OCKLAWAHA

Nice videos.  That's a great example of rail running in residential zones.

Quote from: DavidWilliams on September 15, 2009, 08:11:21 PM
Ocklawaha, I couldn't find it on here but has anyone done a photo doc/history of Baldwin (tiny Duval town 20 miles to our west for the unfamiliar). Rich train history. Mostly freight train history (at least in my memory...I grew up out there in the 70's to early 80's). Some of my older relatives have told me stories that it was a pretty hot commuter train route back in the day (guessing that would have been the 1920's, 30's 40's...maybe into the 50's?). 

David, yes, we could probably get a photo tour of the Baldwin Facilities and maybe do a piece on it.
You are correct that most of the local commuter service was gone by WWII. There was a depot at the big junction in downtown Baldwin, as well as an Atlantic Coast Line depot where the rail trail came through. The history is pretty rich, it was the first railroad junction in the State. It was the headquarters for the Confederate government quartermasters corps. Raided and burned by the Yankees. Southrons got into their lines and took the locomotives away from Lincolns boys and so the famous 54Th MA regiment of the movie Glory fame, was lashed to freight cars to pull the Federal supply train out, and the hospital train back (after some Dixie whoop-ass at Olustee).

Until 1971 when Amtrak took over, Passenger trains still stopped on occasion.  The Gulf Wind went from JAX to NOL, and depending on the year or seasons, the famous FLORIDA SPECIAL, would use the Callahan - Baldwin cut-off around Jacksonville, as it came through in the wee hours having run non-stop from the Carolinas to Central Florida. That was known as the Champagne Train. To the north where the rail trail is, was the old Jacksonville Southwestern which ran from the huge Cummer Mills in the northside of downtown, through North Baldwin, Lake Butler and on to High Springs. It was sold and became part of the Atlantic Coast Lines route through the Central Florida ridge country. Lake Butler - Alachua - Gainesville - Ocala - Leesburg - Trilby - St. Petersburg. It also carried a famous train called The Gulf Coast Special, until Amtrak killed it.

Sadly Florida allowed most of that route to be abandoned, which puts Gainesville on a dead end spur.  

OCKLAWAHA  

I keep seeing DMU and EMU are state of the art, but I am wondering if Steam might not be a viable power source? Nonpolluting with scrubbers at stack discharge and I do know that "Giant" series could pull a house and then some? How about it Ock...........this is more in your dept than mine?

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3184/2952980754_58f6a9f0e2.jpg)
IOWA INTERSTATE Railroads, brand new locomotive from China



(http://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/streamliners/gallery/images/gal05_marktwain_lg.jpg)
(http://en.wikivisual.com/images/f/fc/Pioneer_Zephyr_full.jpg)
The Mark Twain Zephyr

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 16, 2009, 05:43:11 AM
I keep seeing DMU and EMU are state of the art, but I am wondering if Steam might not be a viable power source? Nonpolluting with scrubbers at stack discharge and I do know that "Giant" series could pull a house and then some? How about it Ock...........this is more in your dept than mine?

The only thing Steam would do for us at this time, is make sure every seat on every train was full. I know the sales rep. for the Locomotive Works in China, and THEY got their big locomotives from us back in WWII. Today they are building state of the art, modern 1944 vintage steamers! They just delivered a couple in Iowa.

It would be more of a novelty item, but then novelty might just work. For example, the famous "MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR" one of the first ever streamlined stainless steel trains is currently for sale. ONE OF A KIND IN THE WORLD. Baldwin, Fairbanks Morse, Alco, Lima, Hamilton, engines can still be found from the early diesel ranks. Rolling museum pieces. Sorry though, no more CENTIPEDES! (Damn!). There is always the 1504 downtown which could MAYBE be restored. I would think to do this would add an interesting angle to a commuter operation, giving it something of a historical attraction as well as a commuter function. The down side would be reliability, costs, and we'd drive the modern equipment detectors crazy. These things are designed to sense hot bearings and will stop a train when high temps are detected. Let a big steam locomotive roll over one and the mechanical voice inside threatens to commit Sepuku. There are a few dozen other odd ways one could go with this including Turbine, Gas Turbine, Steam Turbine... the list is pretty long.

But to keep the whole thing functional and not go completely "DISNEY" on our purpose, which is to move OUR citizens... I would see any such function as something of an attachment to a streetcar / railroad museum. Streetcars lend themselves very well to shop walk troughs and museum displays, there should be no reason if that is a revenue source, why we shouldn't look into a few pieces of rare equipment, and give it a roll out schedule, so each vehicle goes out a couple of times a month announced a year in advance, with reserved seating. The MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR? You better believe I'd buy a family pack of tickets.  

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/3149994138_01dbe3b830.jpg)
"Uncle Pete's" Gas Turbine on Sherman Hill, WY

(http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_mns21.jpg)
Another old lovable Baldwin experiment into super size locomotives... and there are still a few around!

OCKLAWAHA

Ock ....I agree with that idea!! There has to be some sort of hook in order to attract customers and something along those lines just might do it! At least it is worth a shot rotating classic engines for a classic tour/trip or what ever one wishes to call it!

This thing does not need hooks, it needs practicality.  The best thing that can be done is to find a way to make it a viable alternative for multiple everyday commuters along the I-4 corridor.  Limited stop HSR is not the answer.  Finding a way to include multiple stops to serve communities inbetween the end points is.  To that, I'd say a mix of express and local trains would do more for Central Florida than a museum would.

lake I agree with you to a certain extent. Mixing HSR and LR on the same trackage would be kinda hard since both concepts move people at different speeds. It would require two tracks would it not? Even limited stop HSR would be more like an express rather than a start and stop operation as Light Rail would be. Not saying one track could not serve both but scheduling would be a bear, side lines for LR to park on while HSR zooms by would serve as a station point but that's another discussion.

I don't think Lakelander was suggesting combining high speed rail and light rail. I think he was suggesting using regular commuter equipment with local and express trains.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3503-lazytom.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/v/NhFu6aM4nY8

Yes.........he was not.......but two different systems using different tracks is the only way I think it would work?

It should work. Most commuter railroads run express trains. They simply skip stops.

The draft of the the Amtrak feasibility study of Ohio's 3C Corridor recently released assumes the route will operate in "push-pull" mode, and included an interesting statement concerning the recovery of stored equipment:

Quote"It should be understood that the current car supply situation at Amtrak is extremely tight and due to the significant number of trainsets and coaches required for the initiation of 3-C service, it is unlikely that equipment for this service could be generated from the rehabilitation of cars in the existing Amtrak storage inventory."

In other words, Ohio should be prepared to purchase new DMU trainsets.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/QuickStartDocs/Amtrak%20Draft%203C%20Report%2009-15-2009.pdf (http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/QuickStartDocs/Amtrak%20Draft%203C%20Report%2009-15-2009.pdf)

Another news tidbit concerning the Ohio Rail Development Commission seeking federal stimulus funds made me think of the previous discussions in this MJ thread:

Quote"The commission unanimously supported the state's application for $250 million to $400 million to start conventional-speed passenger rail service linking Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

The panel also backed the bid of a new Columbus company, U.S. Railcar LLC, to build diesel-fueled trains to run on the rail line. U.S. Railcar is seeking federal stimulus money as well as state economic-development grants to build a $14 million plant in Gahanna to build and maintain passenger trains."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/09/11/CHOOCHOO.ART_ART_09-11-09_A12_C6F1JIU.html (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/09/11/CHOOCHOO.ART_ART_09-11-09_A12_C6F1JIU.html)

At least it seems the new manufacturer of the DMUs may be in the right place at the right time:
http://www.usrailcar.com/ (http://www.usrailcar.com/)
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m7d3-US-Railcar-to-resume-DMU-production

Glad to see the Colorado Rail Car back on the boards..............sorry to see them go down the tubes but at least someone See's the potential for DMUs and I am glad of it! This could be the start of a true mass transit system for our part of the world!

(http://www.hannibal.lib.mo.us/mtzeph/water2.gif)
Perhaps a change in "rivers" would be good for the old gal!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 18, 2009, 01:49:28 PM
Yes.........he was not.......but two different systems using different tracks is the only way I think it would work?

(http://www.daylightsales.com/images/s750.jpg)

With modern signaling and the advent of Positive Train Control (PTC) one could run a full service commuter line from Jacksonville to St. Augustine, Palatka, Gainesville, Lake City, Waycross, and Kingsland/Fernandina/St. Marys. Regular Push-Pull equipment could be purchased or leased and new locomotives are available here in the USA.

Some trains would be scheduled to stop at ALL stations, some only for the larger stations. Another way to build it is to have a line A-B-C on the same track. So the "A" train (great song BTW) stops at roughly 1/2 the stations on the line, The "B" train stops at a different 1/2 of the stations along the line, the "C" train, stops at the larger stations only from both the "A" and "B" group.

While double tracking is nice to have it is far from a need for an upstart system. 9 trains daily would be fairly busy for a new operation, and most of these would have only one or two cars. With one or two exceptions, the trains run inbound in the early AM and outbound in the PM. They simply fall into a slot on the dispatching rotation, so even single track with passing sidings would work. The key is advanced signaling and communications.

LRT can run on the same line as commuter rail, but either the vehicle must be collision compliant or there must be a temporal or physical lock out of one or the other mode. Nobody wants a heritage streetcar meeting the Silver Meteor, when the commuter train is taking the siding at Yukon. This would be a bad but classic cornfield meet!

As for heritage equipment on the commuter rail, certainly it is not the main purpose of the mode Lake, but likewise, the very name "Commuter Rail" equally misleading. Who says those people have to be commuters? What about an elderly couple on the way to the doctors office? How about young mother and child going to the market? A family visiting from Detroit? This list could go on forever, but my Crystal Ball says watch for a new term to replace the Commuter Rail, Mass Transit, Rapid Transit, themes in the next 10 years. This brings me to the heritage equipment idea... Like streetcars, heritage is cheaper. One would have to set certain standards and if the train made one or two round trips at more tourist friendly hours, there is no reason to think it wouldn't carry many more passengers then the regular trains. Hell's bells, I'd drive to Atlanta to ride the Mark Twain Zephyr, or the M-5000. The unique thing that is available right NOW, and may never be available again, is a completely stripped down BURLINGTON ROUTE - "Mark Twain Zephyr". All stainless steel, light weight, articulated, and big enough to carry a true load, but small enough to be economical.

Once again, we have the chance to be FIRST in something. We will now be something like #76 on the heritage streetcar idea that originated IN JACKSONVILLE 30+ years ago. Maybe we could be #1 as a Grand Conveyance of passengers, tourists, railroad fans and historians.  

(http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/4/6/6846.1094677440.jpg)
St. Marys, and Kingsland, Georgia, are now ahead of Jacksonville!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Pioneer_Zephyr,_observation_end.jpg/800px-Pioneer_Zephyr,_observation_end.jpg)
Oh Daddy, can I take it home to keep?

OCKLAWAHA

I understand Lock! Rotating schedule makes sense just not really familiar with tracked communications. I see how that would work all on the same track..........as long as passing or stopping sidings are available and I can see where that would be a natural station point also! That leads me to another question regarding communications.......are trains using air communications or is it track conductive? I have noticed what I would call a mini tower besides switch points but I think that is for switch control. I have seen everything from a telephone pole with antenna to a 80' all welded or bolt up steel structure with dishes and omni's.

QuoteAs for heritage equipment on the commuter rail, certainly it is not the main purpose of the mode Lake, but likewise, the very name "Commuter Rail" equally misleading. Who says those people have to be commuters? What about an elderly couple on the way to the doctors office? How about young mother and child going to the market? A family visiting from Detroit?

We were really talking about Central Florida's HSR plan but if you're making a trip (regardless of whether its for pleasure, work or whatever, you're a commuter in my book.  I don't necessarily relate the term "commuter" with home to work trips only. 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2009, 07:25:37 AM

QuoteAs for heritage equipment on the commuter rail, certainly it is not the main purpose of the mode Lake, but likewise, the very name "Commuter Rail" equally misleading. Who says those people have to be commuters? What about an elderly couple on the way to the doctors office? How about young mother and child going to the market? A family visiting from Detroit?

We were really talking about Central Florida's HSR plan but if you're making a trip (regardless of whether its for pleasure, work or whatever, you're a commuter in my book.  I don't necessarily relate the term "commuter" with home to work trips only. 

Ah, so tourists by that definition are commuters too  ;)

Sure they are.  They just aren't everyday regular Central Florida commuters.

lake...........I think your splitting hairs big fella! Anyone who would ride rail should be considered a "commuter" and right fully so! If that word offends you........how about passenger? Slab of meat seems's a bit much to me! IMO.............LOL!

I think you're confused.  Ock separated the terms.  I agree that anyone traveling should be considered a commuter, passenger or whatever.

My favorite part of MJ...it keeps you thinking (and planning for the future).  I never had any knowledge or interest in rail as it never seemed a part of my reality (my original attraction to this sight was Downtown preservation). I grew up here in Duval in the 70's-80's and always took suburban sprawl as a given. Lots of credit to Lake and Ock (and a few others) for giving me something to think about.

Commuter (same root as communion, commutator, communication) implies that someone is going back and forth over the same route at roughly the same time on a regular basis.  A traveler is going from one place to another with no implication that they would be returning.  No reason they both can't be on the same train, but the traveler might get impatient with all the local stops.

(http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/05/large_amtrak.jpg)
Amtrak doing "the commuter" Cleveland,

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2009, 08:58:19 PM
I think you're confused.  Ock separated the terms.  I agree that anyone traveling should be considered a commuter, passenger or whatever.

The definition of "Commuter," was excellent, THANK YOU. I'm really not splitting hairs or trying to start a discussion on semantics but here is the rub.

As you can see Commuter, is a closer fit to the 9 - 5 passenger that lives or works downtown. The systems are not really designed grandma or grandpa, mommy and baby, trips to the mall, etc. Surveys on a sample of all US "commuter" operations, have shown recently that as much as 1/2 the riders, are in fact, NOT going to and from work. This has been eye opening in the industry journals. We don't bother to market, schedule, or make accommodation for grandma's shopping cart. So rather then every passenger on Commuter rail or bus, being labeled as "Commuter", we could introduce another OCK concept. Every push-pull, or traditional commuter train/bus running into and out of Jacksonville, need to reach out
to this broader market view. So in Miami, Orlando or Tampa, the locomotive pulls into the terminal with a short train of 2 galley cars, and behind them a standard Amtrak style, long distance, "Florida Car." These coach-lounges would have bike storage aboard, room for light baggage, plush comfortable seats in the coach section. The lounge section consists of overstuffed sofas, tables, bar stools, small tables, electrical outlets and wi-fi. A similar bus concept is something I have in the works right now, with a few major builders, hopefully we get see the soft prices before the whole vanish into the FDOT/JTA web. Mike Blaylock was quite pumped over the opportunity to open new markets with a whole new type of vehicle. With the beaches both Fernandina and St. Augustine reachable by rail, Goldhead, National Forest, the Suwanee River and the Okefenokee all walking distance from the rails. This is an untouched market, and it is huge. We simply need a good term to call it by.

(http://www.nyrre.org/images/172BT1.jpg)
Brooklyn NY is planning a streetcar return, heritage system

The only cities I know of that have moved forward on this concept, did so in the 1918's through today. They are:

JACKSONVILLE TRACTION: Mayor Sebring went after a new car order like a bulldog. We got just what we wanted and had ourselves named "The most beautiful streetcar line in the world..." Sebring got JTCO to order 10? brand new custom built lounge cars. Built on our larger streetcar exterior, the interior was anything but the same. These cars hit the road in a firestorm of publicity. Stained Glass, at each end with a polished decorater, safety railing, the cars were based on the Pullman Private Cars of railroad (The Wild Wild West) type fame.

Overstuffed swivel chairs, brass railed observation deck, electric fans, vestibule doors to isolate the party, restroom, a small bar and galley. Several Hollywood-Jacksonville, actors, directors and producers quickly laid claim to the cars and had them chartered. One can only imagine the reaction people had expecting wood slat, or wicker seating! Billie Burke, Glenda from the Wizard of Oz, had a personal car assigned to her under a charter agreement. I'd love to know if Judy Garland or Margaret Hamilton, ever explored the City on Burke's streetcar lounge. Commuter traffic? Work?

CITY 2: New Haven or Hartford, CT. New York City's various commuter rail lines started trashing the heritage (pre Amtrak) back in the 70's. The deadbeats of NYC urban transit needs based the whole of the problems to the high quality of the Commuter Lounges. After a 30-40 year study with extensive data input, Daytona Beach, FDOT, JTA, discovered a truly great phenomenon, one that our City Officials should be visiting, photographing and taking names about.  Central Traffic Control or CTC could do. It is a generally known FACT that more high roller business deals have been agreed upon in the lounge cars of the New York Commuter Rail system, then any other single place on earth. You'd think a mid level City with first level ambition would want a piece of that action. So what do we get? HOV lanes and BRT.   

OCKLAWAHA

It was interesting to see how the train system in the Netherlands accommodated both the commuter trips and the grandma shopping trips on the same system.

During the rush hours you could not bring your bicycle on board (in the Netherlands this is a real horror!), but after the rush hours you could.  Johan, the lawyer, rode his bike from home to the station where he chained it up with hundreds of others and rode the train into Amsterdam where he had ANOTHER bike chained up which he rode to the office.  Berthe, his wife, would ride her bike to the station at 10:00AM and take it on the train with her in the special compartment at the front of each car and get off and ride it to the department store to shop.

We visitors would go to the bicycle rental stall in each station and rent a bike for about $4.00 per day to ride wherever we wanted to go for the day and return it when we were done and get back on the train to go back to the city where our hotel was.

Needless to say, there are more bikes in the Netherlands and Denmark than there are people.  Everybody owns two or three.

Too add to that, DW, there is no better way to actually see the world than by bicycle.

Amen to that, except maybe for the Alps!  Had a Dutch friend of mine tell me that we had seen more of his country, riding bicycles from different stations every day, than he had.  The Netherlands are so compact and so well served by rail that we stayed in one city, Delft,  in the same hotel for a couple of weeks and rode the train to another part of the country everyday and bicycled from the station around the country side for the day.

Quote from: Dog Walker on September 22, 2009, 02:45:22 PMNeedless to say, there are more bikes in the Netherlands and Denmark than there are people.  Everybody owns two or three.

For sure.  One of my fondest memories was having a beer one afternoon in Copenhagen just as rush hour began.  Gradually the streets were filled with commuters of all ages, on all sorts of bikes, with their suits and ties - and/or mini-skirts and high heels!  I'm pretty sure I just stared, gaped really, just like the tourist I was.  It was gorgeous!

buckethead, Dog Walker and hooplady, thanks for the compliments.

I was a Dutch citizen until 1996, even though I moved to the US in 1980.

The public transportation system is excellent, and their bike paths are mostly raised just like the sidewalks, making it far safer to ride a bicycle than here in the US.

I lived in Amsterdam for 6 years and never owned a car, even when I got my first job right out of college as a Strategic Analyst at Nestle Corporation, I still used the "tram" to get to work.

I loved the Amsterdam trams.  An especially neat feature are the mailboxes on the back of each one.  The boxes are emptied each time the tram goes through the main train station.  Neat and efficient!

What type of system?  An Amtrak corridor service on existing rail or Amsterdam style trams?

Soory. I removed it because it was out of place. This is an AmTrak thread, I posted a different subject. (Light Rail and Trolley)

Is this it?

(http://europeforvisitors.com/amsterdam/images/amsterdam_tram_corel.jpg)

or this?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/11G_Amstelveen.jpg/180px-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram_line_5_(Amsterdam)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 23, 2009, 02:14:21 PM
Is this it?

(http://europeforvisitors.com/amsterdam/images/amsterdam_tram_corel.jpg)

or this?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/11G_Amstelveen.jpg/180px-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram_line_5_(Amsterdam)

BT, aren't they beauties, and well suited to a crowded historic city, or just about anywhere else. And you never have to wait more than 5-10 minutes for a ride.

Can't wait to see one of those along San Jose, and Blanding.

They sure are!  I would like to add... Phillips hwy, Main st, phillip randolph, riverside, san marco and of course downtown! :)

They are basically streetcars.  It would be nice to see us fund a few streetcar corridors instead of more expressways 30 miles from the center of the city.

You'll be waiting a long long time to see those things on roads like San Jose

Yeah.  Lets get them between DT and Five Points and into Springfield first.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 23, 2009, 03:48:07 PM
Yeah.  Lets get them between DT and Five Points and into Springfield first.

Heck, just getting them downtown would be a start as long as JTA doesn't put them on a route from Jacksonville Terminal down Bay and North on Hogan.

I'd also be more impressed if they had classic American lines, sort of like a VW Beatle next to a Shelby Cobra.  

OCKLAWAHA

I agree gentlemen! DT/Five Pts/Springfield would make a nice loop and expand from there...........Only problem with that is the lack of vision from the City & JTA and not to mention money to initiate......other than that good to go!

A lack of money is less of a concern than a lack of priority.  If made a priority the funds needed to build and maintain would be found.  After all, the mayor's office wanted to spend $29 million on Metrp Park.  You can build a no-frills streetcar line between DT and Five Points for around the same cost.  So what would you rather have?  $29 million of improvements in Metro Park or a starter streetcar line?

lake.........thats a no brainer  for me.......starter system would do much much more for downtown and the surrounding area than so-called upgrades to Metro Park. The Park enhancements are the Mayors vision, not mine!29 Million Dollars would go along ways for a starter system......keep it minimal ....and get it going!

I would rather use that money on streetcars, education, police and many other things than to change metro park. I already like to go to shows and event at metro park.

I agree Jeff..........don't need to spend money on Metro Park...........that 29 Million could do alot more elsewhere in the COJ Budget!

A temporary reprieve for Amtrak, for now:

Mica backs off Amtrak privatization plan
By Keith Laing - 11/08/11 06:18 PM ET
 
House Transportation Committee Chairman John Mica (R-Fla.) is no longer pushing to privatize Amtrak rail service, his office confirmed to The Hill Tuesday.

A spokesman for Mica told The Hill Tuesday that Mica put the Amtrak privatization proposal forward as a "starting part" in negotiations over high-speed funding, but was "always willing to receive input" on other ideas on how to best to increase the speed of trails between Washington, D.C., and Boston.

"He is willing to sit down with Amtrak and discuss ways to bring high-speed rail to the Northeast Corridor," Mica's spokesman said in an interview. "His interest always has been and remains in bringing high-speed rail to the corridor."



Earlier on Tuesday, Mica said in a speech to the U.S. High Speed Rail Association in New York that there was too much opposition to the proposal, which would have transferred Amtrak assets in the Northeast Corridor of the country to a new entity within the Department of Transportation.

Mica said the plan did not have much support outside his transportation committee, according to a report by The Associated Press.

"I'm willing to compromise," the AP reported Mica said his remarks. "I could probably pass just about anything in committee, but I want to make something happen."


Amtrak is currently a government-owned corporation that receives subsidies from the federal government for service.

But under the House Republican proposal, a newly created Northeast Corridor Executive Committee would have overseen the bidding process for private companies to compete for rail projects in the region.

Democrats on Mica's transportation committee vocally opposed the Amtrak privatization plan, calling it unconstitutional and accusing Mica of wanting to "auction off" the national passenger rail service.

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/railroads/192473-mica-backs-off-amtrak-privatization-plan

Look at this interesting back-tracking by Mica:

QuoteA spokesman for Mica told The Hill that the long-time Florida lawmaker was not trying to eliminate Amtrak with his proposal. In fact, Mica’s spokesman said the lawmaker wants to work with the agency to bring high-speed rail to the northeast more quickly.

“The (transportation) committee’s rail proposal was never about privatizing Amtrak â€" the proposal does not eliminate Amtrak,” Mica’s spokesman said in an email.  “It was and is about private sector competition to ensure that high-speed and passenger rail service in the U.S. is as efficient and effective as possible.

“Chairman Mica will sit down with anyone who shares the same goal of bringing true high-speed rail to the Northeast Corridor and improving U.S. passenger rail service,” the spokesman said.

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/railroads/193189-rail-supporters-get-back-on-track-with-amtrak-victory

And we are supposed to believe that?

He's just waiting to stick it to Amtrak again as soon as he can.

Quote from: FayeforCure on November 13, 2011, 11:35:13 AM
Look at this interesting back-tracking by Mica:

QuoteA spokesman for Mica told The Hill that the long-time Florida lawmaker was not trying to eliminate Amtrak with his proposal. In fact, Mica’s spokesman said the lawmaker wants to work with the agency to bring high-speed rail to the northeast more quickly.

As long as Joe Biden is the vice president and has anything to do with bending the president's ear, I smell a veto even if a GOP-run House and Senate (if the GOP takes the Senate in 2012) try to run this bill through in 2013...

“The (transportation) committee’s rail proposal was never about privatizing Amtrak â€" the proposal does not eliminate Amtrak,” Mica’s spokesman said in an email.  “It was and is about private sector competition to ensure that high-speed and passenger rail service in the U.S. is as efficient and effective as possible.

“Chairman Mica will sit down with anyone who shares the same goal of bringing true high-speed rail to the Northeast Corridor and improving U.S. passenger rail service,” the spokesman said.

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportation-report/railroads/193189-rail-supporters-get-back-on-track-with-amtrak-victory

And we are supposed to believe that?

He's just waiting to stick it to Amtrak again as soon as he can.