There Are Amtrak Haters Out There

[FayeforCure]

Stephen, here is an article that explains how Mica and other Republicans came to vote for an Amtrak bill. Prior to that, Amtrak bills that called for capital improvements for Amtrak would be voted down by Republicans hostile to Amtrak including John Mica:

U.S. House Passes Amtrak Bill: A New Era for Passenger Rail?

By Petra on June 18, 2008

Amtrak's fortunes may finally be turning around. The National Rail Passenger Corporation has been fighting for its life for the duration of a hostile Bush administration and ever since the last Amtrak authorization bill of 1997, which directed the corporation to become financially self-sufficient and brought about a decade of service cuts and deferred maintenance that worsened Amtrak's poor performance and reputation.

But last Wednesday's vote in the U.S. House of Representatives may usher in a new, more hopeful era for passenger rail in this country. The bipartisan bill (H.R. 6003) would authorize $14.4 billion over five years to support Amtrak, including capital grants to Amtrak itself to invest in new passenger cars, rehabilitate aging bridges and replace railroad ties and overhead wires, and to states to improve passenger corridors and facilities. (For the New York region, this could mean improvements to Moynihan Station may be eligible to receive the state capital grants.) The bill also reverses the self-sufficiency directive as did a similar Amtrak bill passed by the Senate last October. The two bills must now go to conference and pass both houses again before being signed into law.




The key to the bill's easy passage in the House was its support by 87 Republicans, led by Rep. John Mica (R-FL), Ranking Member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, who introduced a provision to create privately funded high-speed rail service in the Northeast Corridor.

Mica's provision would allow private entities (including Amtrak) to submit proposals for developing two-hour high-speed rail service from New York City to Washington, D.C. True high-speed rail in the Corridor would require a new, separate right-of-way to avoid the existing commuter, intercity and freight rail traffic that uses the Amtrak-owned New York-Washington rail corridor.

And clearly his motive was not to help Amtrak. He actually found a new way to undermine Amtrak,......with that provision he inserted to replace the Acels with HSR,......that would take away Amtraks most profitable line.

More anti-Amtrak related stuff in regards to his philosophy:

During his freshman term, one journalist described Mica as an “unrepentant entrepreneur for whom the verbs privatize and commercialize have near-religious meaning.”Groer, Anne, “Rep. John Mica: Central Florida Wheeler-Dealer,” Orlando Sentinel, March 7, 1993(4)Groer, Anne, “Rep. John Mica: Central Florida Wheeler-Dealer,” Orlando Sentinel, March 7, 1993 Early on in his career, Mica started making enemies for his aggressive cost- cutting measures. As chairman of the House Government Oversight Committee Civil Service subcommittee, he enraged federal employees' unions by slashing their benefits

http://www.whorunsgov.com/Profiles/John_L._Mica

For years, Amtrak has struggled along without dedicated funding. And for years, Sen. Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey has campaigned for permanent funding, without which Amtrak has been unable to make reliable plans for upgrading infrastructure, providing new rail cars and building new rail lines.



This legislation lays a framework for funding over the next five years. The last time Amtrak got multi-year funding was in 1997.

That the president signed the bill is an achievement in itself, as the Bush administration has been anything but supportive of Amtrak. Given its druthers, it would have scrapped Amtrak, privatizing its profitable parts and dumping the rest.

In the past, every request for funds had to begin with a debate over whether funding Amtrak was a good idea. Now, with the creation of a benchmark, that question has been answered.

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2008/10/public_rail_gains_traction.html

[FayeforCure]

That's about it for me in this thread.  Either you like the guy or you don't.  Personally, as long as he is not actively lobbying against feasible rail projects in this state, he does not bother me.

Having never followed through on some lip service John Mica gave to the jax-miami Amtrak service in 2001, is just as bad as actively lobbying against.

Don't you need a Representative who Actively lobbies FOR the Amtrak Jax-Miami line?

Don't you expect that from your Representative?

Why is he so dedicated in Florida to ONLY the rail line in his back yard?

[FayeforCure]

Faye, thanks for the information.   It seems kind of silly to consider this guy a supporter of rail.

I am supposed to hear from him on Tuesday.  I would like to hear it from him in his own words, but if it is true, then he is a problem and a new person needs that seat.

Thanks Stephen. We'll see if John Mica admits his distaste for Amtrak,......... but his record on Amtrak speaks for itself.

Mica often comes across as a moderate, but his voting record is that of an extremist,..........the most extremist in FL.

[Ocklawaha]

AMTRAK in 1971 (Creation of Amtrak)


AMTRAK in 1980


AMTRAK in 2008

Why is he against Amtrak?  Is it intercity rail in general or a certain way it was being funded or ran?

He's a strong supporter of privatization of government functions. It's all part of the Republican philosophy. BTW it's his current position too.

By pushing for the Acela to be replaced ( a provision he put in the only Amtrak funding bill he's ever voted yes on) he's trying to force away one of Amtrak's most profitable lines, thereby again undermining Amtrak.

Faye, forget about Mica, and focus on the issue just a minute. Frankly hearing how Mica, caused the famine in Etheopia, the Lunar Eclipse, and the latest strain of Swine Flu, doesn't concern me nearly as much as your desire to degrade him for his beliefs. I'd actually like to hear what YOU think about Amtrak, what YOU know about the subject and say, perhaps, 10 improvements YOU would like to see with passenger rail in Florida. Tell us why you think it would or would not work.



Several industry experts and publications have reviewed Amtrak's books. The way they were counting beans, it only APPEARS that the Northeast Corridor, or the Acela is "Amtrak's most profitable route." In fact, IT IS NOT.
When common profit and loss analysis is performed on a route by route basis, the long distance trains actually cover much more of their cost then was previously believed. Routes such as Florida-NY, Chicago-Twin Cities, Chicago-St. Louis, etc. are downright rich by comparison. Even Amtrak knows this NOW, something the company didn't have a clue about for 30+ years, due to some REALLY BAD accounting.

Worse, the whole "NE CORRIDOR GOOD," "LONG DISTANCE BAD," thing has so permeated society and the press, that now everyone "KNOWS" how successful the NEC has been. Unfortunately if you buy into this theory, then the other end is every train rolling into Florida, is a really bad idea.

It's not even the Democrat verses Republican party line, stuff that you keep referring to. The whole thing was started by a Republican. Richard Nixon is the president that made the huge mistake of signing the RAILPAX BILL into life. When this was done, the Democrats went wild cheering and the Republicans, quietly calculated that from the day RAILPAX became nationalized, it would last maybe 5 more years, and be out of the Federal feed bucket. Prior to the bill with the rate of passenger *(railroad term) "TRAIN OFFS," there simply wouldn't be any more passenger rail by 1976. The Republican view (along with the NEC myth) quickly became this is a huge drain on the national budget and is totally unnecessary. The Democrat view became what a great achievement AMTRAK (a name change from RAILPAX) is since the railroads know NOTHING about running profitable trains.



The reason for the sadness that RAILPAX or AMTRAK was ever signed is twofold:

1. The nations railroads speaking through the ICC, FRA and Association of American Railroads, NEVER INTENDED FOR GOVERNMENT TO TAKE OVER THE PASSENGER TRAINS! NEVER! All they went to Washington for was relief of some of the costs, and help with new equipment which was quickly coming due for replacement. Railroads were given a "choice" to join Amtrak, but in reality, there was some very strong arm tactics going on in the back rooms. Our own Seaboard Coast Line (CSX today), and Southern Railway (NS today), both announced they wanted no part of it. SCL was actually still advertising and running the Florida trains at a slim profit. Santa Fe (BNSF today) also wanted no part of it, and suddenly in the eleventh hour, both SCL and SANTA FE decided that joining would be "in their best interest." Yeah right!

2. The day Amtrak started operation, about 3/4 of all passenger trains in the United States were discontinued. Hundreds of towns, and entire states were left off the system. Routes that had 3 and 4 trains each way daily suddenly had 1. Those government geniuses that "knew how" to run a railroad, never figured out that different railroads had different equipment. When a Great Northern RR dome car showed up on a Florida train, with it's heat running full blast, nobody had a clue what to do with it. In many trains, cables didn't match, steamlines were different, voltages etc... The whole thing went to hell in a handbasket overnight.

This just reinforced the Republican platform that this whole thing was a stupid idea and completely unnecessary. The Democrats vowed to fix it as long as it didn't cost any extra dollars, so in other words they did nothing but bark up the tree.

Looking back at it all today, there is a funny quirk in the history of Amtrak. Maybe more like a bunch of funny quirks. Here's a handful. The era's of Amtrak's greatest growth and route extensions happened under president 1. Nixon (founding President), 2. Reagan (huge route growth while talking about a "Zero budget". 3. George Bush Sr. (who allowed Texas to save and expand its services, though IMO they are still very inadequate). The greatest cut to Amtrak EVER, came under President Jimmy Carter. (who agreed to sign for funding only if a certain % of trains were killed, and killed they were even though they were running FULL). If your keeping notes: "The Champion", NYC-JAX-TPA; "The Lone Star", CHI-KC-OKC-DAL-HOU; "The Floridian," MIA-TPA-JAX-BNA-CHI; "The Northcoast Hiawatha", CHI-BTM-SEA-PDX; "The National Limited," DCA-CIN-STL. If the system was a skeleton before Carter, when Mr. Peanut was done it was just a few bones. The next Democratic shot was Clinton, and one would think while he was talking green, saving Bambi, etc... he would have REALLY been the Amtrak savior... then Amtrak had to suffer through 8 years of his doing NOTHING, not even pushing for the annual handouts.

There are still so many flaws in the system that even die hard dedicated railroaders such as myself have a hard time loving Amtrak. For example:



1. In all of their history, they have never ordered a dome car, easily THE most popular rail car of all time.

2. They built up a huge business with express shipments, but then started rescheduling passenger trains around the express schedules. Just before launching a huge new train effort based on express they decided they won't carry express anymore. This threw thousands of jobs, and hundreds of rail cars, equipment pieces, and facilities, out the window.

3. Amtrak to this day has never admitted to the bad accounting which has loaded the Republican gun which has been pointed at their heads.

4. Auto-Train was a profitable and expanding Florida enterprise, Amtrak tried to use it's exclusive access to kill the company, then tried to duplicate it building a terminal in Poinciana and Louisville, in the end they had to settle for pulling the Auto Train cars behind their Florida - Chicago passenger train. With the worst schedule keeping and the roughest track in the entire South, they managed to kill Auto-Train and their own version of it, as well as all Florida - Chicago service.

5. The built dozens of new "Amshack" stations around the country to move out of the downtowns and get into low rent districts, leaving many of the great terminals to be razed. Something like half of the Amshacks are now abandoned or have been razed themselves.


6. They ordered the infamous SDP40F locomotives early in their life, which was supposed to be a passenger variation of a large freight locomotive by EMD (GM). After delivery it was discovered that these locomotives could not run at higher speeds without causing derailments.

7. The Acela? They bought it as the newest thing in trains, a self banking system so much higher speeds could be maintained on conventional track. Only Bombardier had a big problem with the Acela's developing cracks around the trucks. Amtrak repaired all of the cars by welding them in such a way that the train could no longer bank itself.

8. One track minds, Amtrak has to this day treated Long Distance services as a point to point operation, never looking at what market lays in between. Thus many old routes such as Jacksonville - Miami, or Chicago - St. Louis, have several possible routes. For example to Miami, one can pass through Ocala, or Orlando, or Ormond Beach, but Amtrak will use ONE ROUTE rather then expose new towns to train service. If mtraininjax is reading this I'm sure he can tell you, as can anyone who remembers BEFORE Amtrak, just how bad Amtrak SUCKS. But for now, it's all we have, like the Skyway, lets make the best of it.

...and you REALLY wonder why Mica has been less then supportive all these years, suggesting that Virgin Atlantic, or Air France, or a number of other possible bidders (some of which were in the recent HSR meeting in Orlando) might do a better job? YA THINK?

OCKLAWAHA

[DavidWilliams]

Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

[DavidWilliams]

Yes, I have.

[Ocklawaha]

Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

David, either intentional or by accident, you have hit at the crux of the whole argument. Is it Amtrak, that we hate or is it Passenger Rail?  

Amtrak, could be likened to going to the beach to look at the babes, only to find out they're all wearing Marine Corps uniforms... In other words, still lovely females, but the packaging stinks.

Passenger Rail, has got to be the latest SI swimsuit issue. Sexy, restful and downright fun. It is also desperately needed to prevent us from paving ourselves into extinction. Just think with the asphalt and concrete the USA has put down in square feet, you could COMPLETELY PAVE the 7 most Northeastern States.

Sure the trains will probably never make money, but then neither does, Main St., JTB, Lane Ave, etc... It is a public service. The only reason those of us hold our noses and cheer for Amtrak is because right now, it's the only game in town. If private carriers come into the game, even with government funding, Amtrak is through! So consider Amtrak a necessary evil, and custodian of all future rail routes, equipment and property, until something much better takes charge.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

regardless of how we think about him personally, if he wont support rail, he's a problem, not part of the solution.

If it turns out that he is against rail in any meaningful way, he needs replaced.

Its clearly been proven that the guy is not a fan of Amtrak (I'm not even going to argue against this fact) but he loves commuter rail.  However, when you say "rail", there's more to that term than "Amtrak."  I wish we could find at least one person in the mayor's office or city council that would come out and publicly support any form of rail the way Mica has pushed for commuter rail in this state.  I don't see how and why you two want to paint the guy as the anti-christ.  If we really want rail improvements here, its best that we work with him because he's not the real problem we face. Its the complete ignorance of this subject at a local leadership level.  Get that fixed and like Houston and Austin, things can turn for the better fairly quickly, with or without federal support.

[CS Foltz]

lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

[FayeforCure]

lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

Don't you think that some of that would have happened, if John Mica ( Republican leader of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which is the largest committee in US Congress), would have been stomping for Jacksonville as hard as he's been stomping for his hometown/Orlando?

I have to agree with an earlier statement of thelakelander, and consider these two issues the most overlooked opportunities to gather momentum for rail in jax:

1.  (light) rail between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.

2. Jax-Miami Amtrak commuter service, which is/was easy to accomplish. ( far easier than the complicated Central Florida commuter rail project which replaced another excellent light rail plan in Orlando.)

Where was John Mica for Jax, or for any other area in Florida ( he was even absent as a tri-rail advocate for So. FL, or the earlier 2000 voter approved HSR)?

Where is his present support for HSR or the Jax-Miami Amtrak line?

Missing in action.

[FayeforCure]

Just to be honest...let me get it out there...I HATE Amtrak. Another government program (our tax dollars) gone down the shitter.

David, either intentional or by accident, you have hit at the crux of the whole argument. Is it Amtrak, that we hate or is it Passenger Rail?  

Amtrak, could be likened to going to the beach to look at the babes, only to find out they're all wearing Marine Corps uniforms... In other words, still lovely females, but the packaging stinks.

Passenger Rail, has got to be the latest SI swimsuit issue. Sexy, restful and downright fun. It is also desperately needed to prevent us from paving ourselves into extinction. Just think with the asphalt and concrete the USA has put down in square feet, you could COMPLETELY PAVE the 7 most Northeastern States.

Sure the trains will probably never make money, but then neither does, Main St., JTB, Lane Ave, etc... It is a public service. The only reason those of us hold our noses and cheer for Amtrak is because right now, it's the only game in town. If private carriers come into the game, even with government funding, Amtrak is through! So consider Amtrak a necessary evil, and custodian of all future rail routes, equipment and property, until something much better takes charge.

I very much like your analogy Ock. I would just add, that not only are the babes wearing Marinen corps (or any other branch) uniforms, but the have also been starved, losing much of their appealing curves.

The unfortunate truth is that Republicans have worked hard at vilivying the Amtrak brand, by starving it from necessary funding.

I disagree with Ocks last statement "until something much better takes charge." This is another statement that intentially or unintentionally undermines Amtrak's credibility. If everything government run is BAD, then why do we have a government run military, and a host of other government services including our interstate highway system?

[Ocklawaha]

lake....I have to agree with your "train of thought" ....no pun intended. That is the central point at the local level ......there is no one who has that idea foremost in their heads! Skyway costs way more than it brings in and there are expansion issue's that will most likely not be solved........so a light rail system is a viable alternative but that issue will not ever be advanced without someone at the local level starting the ball running!

Don't you think that some of that would have happened, if John Mica ( Republican leader of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which is the largest committee in US Congress), would have been stomping for Jacksonville as hard as he's been stomping for his hometown/Orlando?

No, even with all of his support, the officials at the local level in Orlando are as clueless as the ones here. Witness the blind support for a new Disney Ride, they are trying to sell as "High Speed Rail." At least he has some of the locals talking rail.

I have to agree with an earlier statement of thelakelander, and consider these two issues the most overlooked opportunities to gather momentum for rail in jax:


1.  (light) rail between DT Jax and Orange Park.  Local Jax/Clay County residents commuting parallel to that corridor have to put up with the longest commutes in the state via Blanding and Roosevelt Blvds.

Faye, Light Rail between DT Jax and Orange Park would be a huge waste of funds when the Beaches DON'T have any rail access and Orange Park already does. THINK, CSX already connects DT JAX to OP. Commuter Rail, cash and carry.

2. Jax-Miami Amtrak commuter service, which is/was easy to accomplish. ( far easier than the complicated Central Florida

Faye, if you are running for Congress or the Senate, again, you really need to learn the subject matter before unloading poison pen baggage on Mica, because he won the election and you didn't.

This second statement says it all to everyone who understands transportation. How many Jaxson's do you think work in Miami? Ft. Lauderdale? West Palm Beach? You terminology is all over the board and quite misleading making it clear you don't fully understand this argument.

You will NEVER SEE "Jax-Miami commuter service," This is sort of like saying the local JTA bus to Los Angeles! Jacksonville to Miami is a LONG DISTANCE ROUTE. It will have long distance trains, such as the Silver Meteor, or Silver Star, running a section all the way to Miami, via the FEC RY. The closest thing you will get on this route is a new Amtrak Corridor service, where we "MIGHT" see trains running 6-10 round trips daily. Trains with reclining seat coaches, and a full diner or lounge car service, hardly a "commuter" run.

Where was John Mica for Jax, or for any other area in Florida ( he was even absent as a tri-rail advocate for So. FL, or the earlier 2000 voter approved HSR)?

Where is his present support for HSR or the Jax-Miami Amtrak line?

Mica is the one who was instrumental in bringing the Colorado Rail Car DMU demonstration to Jacksonville. Between he and C. Brown, they tried to get the Mayor, and JTA's attention. In fact they are behind the scenes of Jacksonville Commuter Rail.
Commuter rail such as St. Augustine, Palatka, Macclenny and Fernandina/Yulee. If he doesn't support Commuter Rail for Jacksonville, or Corridor Rail on the East Coast, THEN we have a problem. As long as he is backing our efforts at Commuter Rail, he is the right man. I know he also backs Central Florida High Speed Rail, which I'd like to speak to him about. If it were a TRUE, high speed train in a population dense corridor, then I'd back it too. What we have got for all of our dollars is a stupid plan that will trash Billions of dollars and still miss the needs of FLORIDIANS.

Missing in action, or flying commuter trains to Miami, and Light Rail to Orange Park (next to the CSX) would be a waste.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

1.  There isnt a 'you two'.   I am responding to Faye's information, like you are, because it is new to me.

2.  No one is saying he is the anti christ.   But if he is against rail and mass transit projects, then he is a problem, and he needs replaced.  Lake you know that. 

Its been proven that he is not against rail and mass transit projects in general.  He's one of the state's biggest supporters. 

You should ask yourself why you are so committed to the belief that he is pro commuter rail.   Have any of us ever heard or seen any proof that he is willing to vote for it?

Yes, its clear the guy is a huge commuter rail advocate.  Anyone who has followed our site during this time, would know this.  I'm surprised a lot of this stuff is now new to you.  We've had these discussions before several times at our Tuesday night meetings.

He might like trains a lot, and he may think they are cool, but does that translate to actual votes and money?

And in the end, that is his job.  We dont need him to be anti christ.  We need him to be pro rail.

Right now, he and C. Brown are as about as pro rail as it gets around here.  They are the least of our problems.  We need other local representatives to get educated on the issue and on board.  Here is another link to his support of commuter rail.  Its more than just lip service.  When you talk with him, I'm sure you'll find out about more.

Critics also have decried the high cost of SunRail, saying it amounts to corporate welfare. It was an especially effective argument during the past legislative session when lawmakers were forced to raise some taxes and fees, raid trust funds and rely on federal dollars to plug a $4 billion hole in the budget.

But U.S. Rep. John Mica, R- Winter Park, said he hopes to win even more money from the federal government â€" close to $250 million â€" from the nearly $800 billion stimulus package approved earlier this year by the Congress.

"More federal money, less state money," Mica said. "We'll get as much as we can get there."

Some of the money saved by the state could, in theory, be diverted to the struggling Tri-Rail commuter train in South Florida. Constantine tried to win votes in that region last session by offering to back a $2 surcharge on rental cars, but South Florida lawmakers turned him down.

Now that Tri-Rail is facing layoffs, service reductions and a related loss of federal funding, Constantine said, they might be more willing to work with SunRail supporters.

Mica previously has applied for $300 million in federal funding. About $40 million was aside for SunRail in the current budget, he said.

http://www.sunrail.com/newsevents.asp?type=news&id=93

[Lunican]

John Mica at Jacksonville Terminal speaking about the benefits of commuter rail.

Commuter Rail Demonstration visits Jacksonville

[Ocklawaha]

The unfortunate truth is that Republicans have worked hard at vilivying the Amtrak brand, by starving it from necessary funding.

I disagree with Ocks last statement "until something much better takes charge." This is another statement that intentially or unintentionally undermines Amtrak's credibility. If everything government run is BAD, then why do we have a government run military, and a host of other government services including our interstate highway system?

Faye, why is Obama able to speak up for rail and Carter or Clinton couldn't, didn't, wouldn't. This doesn't just crack down party lines as you seem to think. So many have heard about the "success," of the northeast corridor, that it has become fact in the minds of the people. The late Chairman Mao, said, "Tell a lie long enough and it becomes truth..." Government run excellence? The Post Office vs Federal Express? Even the highly praised VA medical system is one of the most frustrating functions of government. Something better in the case of Amtrak, would be incentive funds for railroad companies, or outside contractors to take over Amtrak, on a region by region basis.

Amtrak is fun to ride, generally comfortable, but being nationalized, it is not responsive to their markets. The trains through Georgia no longer serve peanut soup. Just one of thousands of little things that the private railroads did for over 100 years quite successfully. It is basically a GI Issue train service. It could be so much better and so much more, but government doesn't understand, remember or respond. Just before the new Amtrak funding bill was launched, the geniuses over at Amtrak were rolling out a new "food service car." What they did is take a full kitchen dinning car, convert 1/2 to more coach seating, and the other 1/2 into a railroad clone of a Target Department Store snack bar. I'm not saying scrap Amtrak, in fact it could be more then tripled and still not reach the level of service that the private railroads gave up until the day Amtrak took over.

OCKLAWAHA