There Are Amtrak Haters Out There

[Ocklawaha]

Yes, Lake, this is the story I'm hearing also. Time will tell?? The EMU concept is much closer to the traditional "HEAVY RAIL" then it is light rail, and certainly neither is generally called "Commuter Rail," though if you want to be a REAL techie, they are all forms of Commuter Rail. Just look at our old NYC car on Iona, That's some damn big heavy rail.

The EMU's of Chicago, South Shore and South Bend, RR, America's last classic interurban, are freaking awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/v/mJ8KxID7eY8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
http://www.youtube.com/v/Mf9sUcIWrlI&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1

Way before Dallas/Fort Worth had light rail or streetcars, the Tandy Company had the last mile or so of some of the original streetcar/Interurban. It ran from a parking lot way out near the river right into the bottom of the Tandy Tower. It was really a small fleet of 1930-40 vintage PCC cars (Presidents Conference Car, designers met with all of the electric railroad presidents to create a modern looking, lightweight, silent car that they thought would save the industry from the Streetcar Holocaust, Thus the name PCC / As an aside, I labeled the JTA "Trolleys" as Potato Chip Trucks, and today they are jokingly called PCT Trolleys now by JTA!). The ultimate insult to those grand old Tandy cars was that some tobacco barn crazys got hold of them with some lumber, metal and mobile home siding(?). They then UNDER CONTRACT, went in and one by one converted them into some nightmare version of 1970 - "Travel Trailer Modern." They HONESTLY looked like the baby died and the afterbirth lived. Taking the official Ocklawaha Rant of Rage! Our big black cat has left more creative "things" in the litter box then these abominations.

Many of the readers are really having a hard time with the rail game here in Jacksonville, sadly, when friend Faye get's her data from the newspapers, it's the worst of both worlds. News media can't even get their trains straight:

"A Tanker Exploded..." Uh, Tankers are 1. A type of ship, 2. A member of the US armored divisions
"He was driving the train"... Nobody drives a train, that is what the tracks do.
"Daytona can't wait to hear the chug of the train," .. REALLY? I didn't know Amtrak would be steam powered.
"The body was found on a flatbed railcar..." You got it wrong buddy, flatbeds are semi trailers, its a FLAT CAR.
"The president rode the caboose to Washington..." Anyone who ever stepped in the Georgia 300 would NEVER make this mistake again! How about "The president elect rode to Washington in a Pullman Palace Car..."

See what I mean Lake, Lunican, Stephendare... You guys are great studies, just give us some time to convert the whole city...

Since I'm ranting: Here's two more that bug me like finger nails on a chalk board!

"We have an ACCIDENT WORKING in the Northbound inner lane of I95 at JTB..." Damn it people I have seen 10,000 accidents, but I have NEVER seen one WORKING!

OR this classic:

"There is a semi trailer jackknifed at US1 and Emerson..." Does ANYBODY know what a "jackknifed" accident is?
Does anyone else know that the Jack Knife is a backing movement by large 18 wheel rigs to spot a trailer in a very tight spot?

Okay, guess I'm done.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Nice videos.  That's a great example of rail running in residential zones.

[Ocklawaha]

Ocklawaha, I couldn't find it on here but has anyone done a photo doc/history of Baldwin (tiny Duval town 20 miles to our west for the unfamiliar). Rich train history. Mostly freight train history (at least in my memory...I grew up out there in the 70's to early 80's). Some of my older relatives have told me stories that it was a pretty hot commuter train route back in the day (guessing that would have been the 1920's, 30's 40's...maybe into the 50's?). 

David, yes, we could probably get a photo tour of the Baldwin Facilities and maybe do a piece on it.
You are correct that most of the local commuter service was gone by WWII. There was a depot at the big junction in downtown Baldwin, as well as an Atlantic Coast Line depot where the rail trail came through. The history is pretty rich, it was the first railroad junction in the State. It was the headquarters for the Confederate government quartermasters corps. Raided and burned by the Yankees. Southrons got into their lines and took the locomotives away from Lincolns boys and so the famous 54Th MA regiment of the movie Glory fame, was lashed to freight cars to pull the Federal supply train out, and the hospital train back (after some Dixie whoop-ass at Olustee).

Until 1971 when Amtrak took over, Passenger trains still stopped on occasion.  The Gulf Wind went from JAX to NOL, and depending on the year or seasons, the famous FLORIDA SPECIAL, would use the Callahan - Baldwin cut-off around Jacksonville, as it came through in the wee hours having run non-stop from the Carolinas to Central Florida. That was known as the Champagne Train. To the north where the rail trail is, was the old Jacksonville Southwestern which ran from the huge Cummer Mills in the northside of downtown, through North Baldwin, Lake Butler and on to High Springs. It was sold and became part of the Atlantic Coast Lines route through the Central Florida ridge country. Lake Butler - Alachua - Gainesville - Ocala - Leesburg - Trilby - St. Petersburg. It also carried a famous train called The Gulf Coast Special, until Amtrak killed it.

Sadly Florida allowed most of that route to be abandoned, which puts Gainesville on a dead end spur.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I keep seeing DMU and EMU are state of the art, but I am wondering if Steam might not be a viable power source? Nonpolluting with scrubbers at stack discharge and I do know that "Giant" series could pull a house and then some? How about it Ock...........this is more in your dept than mine?

[Ocklawaha]

IOWA INTERSTATE Railroads, brand new locomotive from China





The Mark Twain Zephyr

I keep seeing DMU and EMU are state of the art, but I am wondering if Steam might not be a viable power source? Nonpolluting with scrubbers at stack discharge and I do know that "Giant" series could pull a house and then some? How about it Ock...........this is more in your dept than mine?

The only thing Steam would do for us at this time, is make sure every seat on every train was full. I know the sales rep. for the Locomotive Works in China, and THEY got their big locomotives from us back in WWII. Today they are building state of the art, modern 1944 vintage steamers! They just delivered a couple in Iowa.

It would be more of a novelty item, but then novelty might just work. For example, the famous "MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR" one of the first ever streamlined stainless steel trains is currently for sale. ONE OF A KIND IN THE WORLD. Baldwin, Fairbanks Morse, Alco, Lima, Hamilton, engines can still be found from the early diesel ranks. Rolling museum pieces. Sorry though, no more CENTIPEDES! (Damn!). There is always the 1504 downtown which could MAYBE be restored. I would think to do this would add an interesting angle to a commuter operation, giving it something of a historical attraction as well as a commuter function. The down side would be reliability, costs, and we'd drive the modern equipment detectors crazy. These things are designed to sense hot bearings and will stop a train when high temps are detected. Let a big steam locomotive roll over one and the mechanical voice inside threatens to commit Sepuku. There are a few dozen other odd ways one could go with this including Turbine, Gas Turbine, Steam Turbine... the list is pretty long.

But to keep the whole thing functional and not go completely "DISNEY" on our purpose, which is to move OUR citizens... I would see any such function as something of an attachment to a streetcar / railroad museum. Streetcars lend themselves very well to shop walk troughs and museum displays, there should be no reason if that is a revenue source, why we shouldn't look into a few pieces of rare equipment, and give it a roll out schedule, so each vehicle goes out a couple of times a month announced a year in advance, with reserved seating. The MARK TWAIN ZEPHYR? You better believe I'd buy a family pack of tickets.


"Uncle Pete's" Gas Turbine on Sherman Hill, WY


Another old lovable Baldwin experiment into super size locomotives... and there are still a few around!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock ....I agree with that idea!! There has to be some sort of hook in order to attract customers and something along those lines just might do it! At least it is worth a shot rotating classic engines for a classic tour/trip or what ever one wishes to call it!

[thelakelander]

This thing does not need hooks, it needs practicality.  The best thing that can be done is to find a way to make it a viable alternative for multiple everyday commuters along the I-4 corridor.  Limited stop HSR is not the answer.  Finding a way to include multiple stops to serve communities inbetween the end points is.  To that, I'd say a mix of express and local trains would do more for Central Florida than a museum would.

[CS Foltz]

lake I agree with you to a certain extent. Mixing HSR and LR on the same trackage would be kinda hard since both concepts move people at different speeds. It would require two tracks would it not? Even limited stop HSR would be more like an express rather than a start and stop operation as Light Rail would be. Not saying one track could not serve both but scheduling would be a bear, side lines for LR to park on while HSR zooms by would serve as a station point but that's another discussion.

[Lunican]

I don't think Lakelander was suggesting combining high speed rail and light rail. I think he was suggesting using regular commuter equipment with local and express trains.



http://www.youtube.com/v/NhFu6aM4nY8

[CS Foltz]

Yes.........he was not.......but two different systems using different tracks is the only way I think it would work?

[Lunican]

It should work. Most commuter railroads run express trains. They simply skip stops.

[WeeklyJoe]

The draft of the the Amtrak feasibility study of Ohio's 3C Corridor recently released assumes the route will operate in "push-pull" mode, and included an interesting statement concerning the recovery of stored equipment:

"It should be understood that the current car supply situation at Amtrak is extremely tight and due to the significant number of trainsets and coaches required for the initiation of 3-C service, it is unlikely that equipment for this service could be generated from the rehabilitation of cars in the existing Amtrak storage inventory."

In other words, Ohio should be prepared to purchase new DMU trainsets.

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/QuickStartDocs/Amtrak%20Draft%203C%20Report%2009-15-2009.pdf

Another news tidbit concerning the Ohio Rail Development Commission seeking federal stimulus funds made me think of the previous discussions in this MJ thread:

"The commission unanimously supported the state's application for $250 million to $400 million to start conventional-speed passenger rail service linking Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton and Cincinnati.

The panel also backed the bid of a new Columbus company, U.S. Railcar LLC, to build diesel-fueled trains to run on the rail line. U.S. Railcar is seeking federal stimulus money as well as state economic-development grants to build a $14 million plant in Gahanna to build and maintain passenger trains."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/09/11/CHOOCHOO.ART_ART_09-11-09_A12_C6F1JIU.html

At least it seems the new manufacturer of the DMUs may be in the right place at the right time:
http://www.usrailcar.com/
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m7d3-US-Railcar-to-resume-DMU-production

[CS Foltz]

Glad to see the Colorado Rail Car back on the boards..............sorry to see them go down the tubes but at least someone See's the potential for DMUs and I am glad of it! This could be the start of a true mass transit system for our part of the world!

[Ocklawaha]

Perhaps a change in "rivers" would be good for the old gal!

Yes.........he was not.......but two different systems using different tracks is the only way I think it would work?

With modern signaling and the advent of Positive Train Control (PTC) one could run a full service commuter line from Jacksonville to St. Augustine, Palatka, Gainesville, Lake City, Waycross, and Kingsland/Fernandina/St. Marys. Regular Push-Pull equipment could be purchased or leased and new locomotives are available here in the USA.

Some trains would be scheduled to stop at ALL stations, some only for the larger stations. Another way to build it is to have a line A-B-C on the same track. So the "A" train (great song BTW) stops at roughly 1/2 the stations on the line, The "B" train stops at a different 1/2 of the stations along the line, the "C" train, stops at the larger stations only from both the "A" and "B" group.

While double tracking is nice to have it is far from a need for an upstart system. 9 trains daily would be fairly busy for a new operation, and most of these would have only one or two cars. With one or two exceptions, the trains run inbound in the early AM and outbound in the PM. They simply fall into a slot on the dispatching rotation, so even single track with passing sidings would work. The key is advanced signaling and communications.

LRT can run on the same line as commuter rail, but either the vehicle must be collision compliant or there must be a temporal or physical lock out of one or the other mode. Nobody wants a heritage streetcar meeting the Silver Meteor, when the commuter train is taking the siding at Yukon. This would be a bad but classic cornfield meet!

As for heritage equipment on the commuter rail, certainly it is not the main purpose of the mode Lake, but likewise, the very name "Commuter Rail" equally misleading. Who says those people have to be commuters? What about an elderly couple on the way to the doctors office? How about young mother and child going to the market? A family visiting from Detroit? This list could go on forever, but my Crystal Ball says watch for a new term to replace the Commuter Rail, Mass Transit, Rapid Transit, themes in the next 10 years. This brings me to the heritage equipment idea... Like streetcars, heritage is cheaper. One would have to set certain standards and if the train made one or two round trips at more tourist friendly hours, there is no reason to think it wouldn't carry many more passengers then the regular trains. Hell's bells, I'd drive to Atlanta to ride the Mark Twain Zephyr, or the M-5000. The unique thing that is available right NOW, and may never be available again, is a completely stripped down BURLINGTON ROUTE - "Mark Twain Zephyr". All stainless steel, light weight, articulated, and big enough to carry a true load, but small enough to be economical.

Once again, we have the chance to be FIRST in something. We will now be something like #76 on the heritage streetcar idea that originated IN JACKSONVILLE 30+ years ago. Maybe we could be #1 as a Grand Conveyance of passengers, tourists, railroad fans and historians.


St. Marys, and Kingsland, Georgia, are now ahead of Jacksonville!


Oh Daddy, can I take it home to keep?

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I understand Lock! Rotating schedule makes sense just not really familiar with tracked communications. I see how that would work all on the same track..........as long as passing or stopping sidings are available and I can see where that would be a natural station point also! That leads me to another question regarding communications.......are trains using air communications or is it track conductive? I have noticed what I would call a mini tower besides switch points but I think that is for switch control. I have seen everything from a telephone pole with antenna to a 80' all welded or bolt up steel structure with dishes and omni's.