Metro Jacksonville

Hmmmm, I guess I couldn't have said it any better!

QuoteBy Bill Rufty
THE LEDGER


Published: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 at 1:41 p.m.
Last Modified: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 at 1:41 p.m.

LAKELAND | There's a bullet train headed for Lakeland and Central Florida if a newly formed group and more than a hundred people attending a kickoff at Lakeland City Hall on Tuesday have anything to say about it.

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A graphic art presentation for "Connect Us," a group formed to get "Florida High Speed Rail built, greets audience members during a meeting at the Lakeland City Commission Chamber Tuesday. August 18, 2009. The Ledger/Michael Wilson
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MICHAEL WILSON | The Ledger


Former Hillsborough County commissioner and founder of "Connect Us" Ed Turanchik makes a point Tuesday.
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MICHAEL WILSON | The Ledger

State Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland, hosted 'Connect Us,' a group formed by former Hillsborough County Commissioner Ed Turanchik and others from Tampa, Orlando and Miami who are working to get a high-speed rail line built in Florida.

'This is all about showing the president of the United States that this is important to Florida when he begins to make his decision on who gets the high-speed rail stimulus money,' Turanchik said.

All seven Lakeland city commissioners appeared for the kickoff, and the five Polk County commissioners recessed their own meeting in Bartow so they could come to show their support.

Also, 40 legislators from the Tampa Bay area, including all of Polk's legislators, have voiced support for the project, said Rep. Seth McKeel, R-Lakeland, chairman of the Tampa Bay Area Legislative Delegation.

The idea of the kickoff is to energize politicians and the general public in hopes they will write letters of support and work to get an application for $2 billion in federal high-speed rail stimulus money for a Florida bullet train.

'What has changed in the years of effort is that we now have grass-roots support, political support and we are dedicating $1 billion in right of way already in state hands to obtain the stimulus,' Dockery said.

'Florida is further along with a shovel-ready project than any other state. This is the beginning of the spine of a fast mass transit system that will benefit all of Florida.''


A FACEBOOK CAMPAIGN

Turanchik urged members of the audience to join 'Connect Us' by going to http://www.fastrailconnectus.com and then to tell everyone on Facebook to join as well.

'We believe that high-speed rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida transportation. It is the game-changer,' Turanchik said. 'If we organize together by 2011, we can start construction. And by 2013... we (will) have trains running 150 miles an hour down the I-4 corridor and then on to Miami. And that changes everything forever.'

Lakeland was the second of three stops by the group Tuesday. Rail supporters first held a kickoff in Orlando and finished in Tampa. Today, the group heads to Jacksonville.

Lakeland Mayor Buddy Fletcher called the full-house audience in the City Commission chambers Tuesday a good sign for the long sought high-speed rail project through Lakeland.

'We haven't seen this kind of turnout in years,' Fletcher said

. 'I think this just shows that working together ó Lakeland, Tampa and Orlando ó that this project is finally going to become a reality.'


A LONG FIGHT


Florida officials have discussed high-speed rail for decades. The current incarnation began in 2000, when Dockery's husband, Lakeland businessman C.C. 'Doc' Dockery, spent $3 million of his own money to get an amendment to the state constitution on the ballot.

The amendment, requiring the state to build a high-speed rail system connecting at least five metropolitan areas in Florida, was passed by voters over the objections of then-Gov. Jeb Bush.

Bush, who took office in 1999, ended the old Florida High Speed Rail Commission and turned the money set aside for high-speed rail over to interstate construction.

Dockery, who had been appointed to the old commission by Republican Gov. Bob Martinez in the 1980s, maintains much of that money never went to pay for interstate highway work. Dockery's work to get the amendment approved caused a

schism between him and Bush. They had been close political allies.


A NEW RAIL AUTHORITY


The Florida Legislature created the current Florida High Speed Rail Authority in 2001, and hired consultants, advertising for contractors and completing environmental engineering studies for the first phase between Orlando and Tampa. Bush, in the meantime, had supporters get enough petition signatures to put the amendment issue back on the ballot, and voters repealed the requirement that the state must build the system.

However, the governor miscalculated, because the rail authority, having been created by the Legislature, was not tied to the amendment, so it continued to operate. He asked the nine members to disband, but they refused.

The Legislature, which created the authority, also refused to decommission it, and the authority went into a kind of hibernation for the last two years of Bush's administration.

Authority members and other high-speed rail supporters were heartened by the election of Charlie Crist as governor in 2006, but Crist has yet to reappoint members of the authority or to meet with them.

Since the offer of federal stimulus money, however, Crist has announced his support. He said again on Tuesday that he supports the push for federal funding to pay for the rail project, but he offered little detail about his efforts.

'We're working with our friends at the federal level, our congressional delegation, those in the (Obama) administration. I think it's very important,' Crist said.


MONEY AND JOBS

With the election of President Obama and the addition by Congress of stimulus money for high-speed rail throughout the nation, the Florida authority has begun holding regular meetings again, and supporters along the first two phases ó Orlando to Tampa and Orlando to Miami ó have begun a grass-roots push to get the projects under way quickly. Many speakers Tuesday spoke of the thousands of jobs that could be created by the project.

The idea of obtaining federal money for the project has drawn strong support from state officials, including Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach.

In a letter he sent earlier this month to Florida DOT secretary Stephanie Kopelousos, Atwater said, 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

'Transportation, efficiently moving people and goods, is a central component of Florida's future economic strength. Investing in (high-speed) rail is an opportunity that we should vigorously pursue for the good of all Floridians,' he said.


HIGH-SPEED RAIL IS DIFFERENT


High-speed rail is different from the Orlando area commuter rail Sen. Dockery helped defeat in the 2009 session of the Legislature. She said that plan would have created increased liability for the state's taxpayers.

Unlike a commuter train, which makes multiple stops within a single urban area, a high-speed rail train goes from city to city without stops in between, traveling at high rates of speed.


[ Bill Rufty can be reached at bill.rufty@theledger.com or 863-802-7523. His political blog is at politics.theledger.com. ]

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090818/NEWS/908189965/1410?Title=Bullet-Train-Backers-Rally-in-Lakeland

Ah, so John Mica is a HSR supporter but NOT for Florida!! Imagine that,......

Here is the list of Federal Officials who've endorsed HSR for Florida:

QuoteFederal Officials
U.S. Senator Bill Nelson
U.S. Senator Mel Martinez
U.S. Congresswoman Corrine Brown D-Jacksonville, Orlando
U.S. Congresswoman Kathy Castor D-Tampa
U.S. Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, R-Miami
U.S. Congressman Mario Diaz-Balart, R-Miami
U.S. Congressman Alcee Hartings, D-Ft. Lauderdale and Miami
U.S. Congressman Alan Grayson, D-Orlando
U.S. Congressman Suzanne Kosmas, D-Orlando
U.S. Congresman Kendrick Meek, D-Miami
U.S. Congressman Adam Putnam, R-Lakeland
U.S. Congressman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Ft. Lauderdale
U.S. Congressman Robert Wexler, D-Palm Beach

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/cms.php?action=Endorsements

that is a very, very, very bad analogy. tim tebow is _______________, while high speed rail is a pretty good idea.

High speed rail is neato.

Nice find Faye.  Interesting read.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 01, 2009, 07:41:27 PM
that is a very, very, very bad analogy. tim tebow is _______________, while high speed rail is a pretty good idea.

That is a very, very, very bad post.  fsu813's post is __________, while all other posts aren't useless and unimaginative. 

Can I be all for high-speed rail and Tebow?...Both are an idea whose time is here  ;D Perhaps Tebow when he is done with football can be a conductor of the transit system that will magically appear in Duval proper in the not to distant future.  ;D....and then (after the cancer cure announcement) Tebow can solve the rest of the issues at City Hall.

Quote from: kramer2k on September 01, 2009, 09:03:44 PM
Nice find Faye.  Interesting read.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 01, 2009, 07:41:27 PM
that is a very, very, very bad analogy. tim tebow is _______________, while high speed rail is a pretty good idea.

That is a very, very, very bad post.  fsu813's post is __________, while all other posts aren't useless and unimaginative. 

Nice, what a childish response.

I'm all for HS rail in the state, just no more stupin analogies with reference to Tebow. Thank God we only have year left of this media circle jerk.

if only you were right reednavy....remember, the Jags could draft him....and even if they don't, Dan Hicken will continue to update us on Tebow's every move in the NFL (including his bench warming duties) :-)

Quoteauthor=FayeforCure link=topic=5980.msg94585#msg94585 date=1251843074]
Hmmmm, I guess I couldn't have said it any better!

That inability to think independently doesn't speak well for aspirations of leadership. Following this herd of lemmings off a cliff won't make you more lovable then John Mica.  

QuoteLAKELAND | There's a bullet train headed for Lakeland and Central Florida if a newly formed group and more than a hundred people attending a kickoff at Lakeland City Hall on Tuesday have anything to say about it.

More then 100? After the new wears off, that's about what the daily ridership is going to be too.  

Quote"Connect Us,"

This plan does ANYTHING but connect us. The reason for the failure of ridership, will be laid on Florida High Speed Rail, and not FDOT, where the blame belongs. Frankly by missing every single City, except Disney World, and Tampa, this will be the Billion Dollar train to nowhere, and worse, it won't be as convenient as our Skyway! When it crashes financially it might take down everything from Amtrak to BRT in Florida. How is it that the California High Speed Rail plan isn't terminated at Disneyland. Caltrans, has years of experience building a rail system that really has taken the #1 automobile society and turned them on to trains.  

Quote'This is all about showing the president of the United States that this is important to Florida when he begins to make his decision on who gets the high-speed rail stimulus money,' Turanchik said[/b].

This might prove the wisdom of our new President, if he rubber stamps this Disney ride, all bets are off. Hopefully he won't be fooled by Mickey fueled hype, that is meaningless to the bulk of Central Florida residents. I didn't vote for him or McPain, I just hope he takes a stand and backs SEHSR, MWHSRI, CALHSR, GULFHSR etc.  

Quoteto energize politicians and the general public in hopes they will write letters of support and work to get an application for $2 billion in federal high-speed rail stimulus money for a Florida bullet train.

As Lakelander said, everybody pile on, HSR is sexy! Nobody wants to take a stand and say NOBODY LIVES ON I-4!

Quotegrass-roots support, political support and we are dedicating $1 billion in right of way already in state hands to obtain the stimulus,' .

Big Deal, this is nothing that any other community couldn't get by turning highway right-of-way into an investment asset, this is hardly "grass roots," more like a Mouse furball.  

Quote'Florida is further along with a shovel-ready project than any other state. This is the beginning of the spine of a fast mass transit system that will benefit all of Florida.''

Leave it to Florida, to have the WORST plan of ANY HSR project in the country, and some folks are claiming this is the CORE of Florida's railroad future. Sad, because these people have been removed from "Railroad Think," so long that none seem to have a clue what they are talking about. Mythical numbers, from mythical cities, on a mythically perfect transportation system, doesn't anyone else smell the RAT?

QuoteA FACEBOOK CAMPAIGN

Whoopee Frigging Do! My daughters have one too!

QuoteTuranchik urged members of the audience to join 'Connect Us' by going to http://www.fastrailconnectus.com and then to tell everyone on Facebook to join as well.

Yeah, build a railroad with an electronic chain letter, just send in your tax dollars and we'll make you rich.

Quote'We believe that high-speed rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida transportation. It is the game-changer,

Well, Tim is about to fumble the ball if he lets FDOT HSR call the play. I agree that it WILL BE a game-changer, but your not going to like the results.

QuoteLakeland was the second of three stops by the group Tuesday. Rail supporters first held a kickoff in Orlando and finished in Tampa. Today, the group heads to Jacksonville.

Oh God PLEASE! Just what we need, a bunch of Mickeys friends up here to promise us how sincerely they intend to serve our city with a train that runs from Orlando MCO to Tampas freeway interchange. People tell me where these yahoo's are and perhaps the ancient one will ask some hard questions. Hell, I haven't been asked to leave in almost 30 years, so I must not be doing something right.

QuoteMONEY AND JOBS

YEP! Our tax money and Orlando - and - Tampa's jobs, and not much chance of EVER seeing this arrive at Jacksonville Terminal.

QuoteThe idea of obtaining federal money for the project has drawn strong support from state officials, including Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach.

Following in the footsteps of President Bush, remember he "supported" High Speed Rail, then tried to ZERO FUND AMTRAK! Just another Republican has gone mad.  

Quote'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

Oh this will affect them alright, if Disney or the Seminole Casino boys don't bail us out, perhaps we can change the whole thing to light rail, after the track starts to decay from class 7 down to class 2. Great speed for streetcars, and MAYBE enough passengers to fill one or two daily.  

Quote'Transportation, efficiently moving people and goods, is a central component of Florida's future economic strength. Investing in (high-speed) rail is an opportunity that we should vigorously pursue for the good of all Floridians,' he said.

Yes, if we were planning on putting this investment where it makes sense (WHERE PEOPLE LIVE) then I would agree with this statement. Where is the efficiency of spending Billions on something we can't use?

QuoteHIGH-SPEED RAIL IS DIFFERENT

So is the SKYWAY! Both will meet a similar fate. Deep observation BTW.

QuoteThat's my crystal ball, but hell, who am I? Just an old railroad consultant from the THIRD WORLD...albeit one who's mass transit puts America to absolute shame.

I would love to have these FDOT and HSR boys and girls in a chair, gazing into a bright light bulb, as I drill them with questions.

OCKLAWAHA
TAKING ANOTHER INFAMOUS STAND!  

Quote...it won't be as convenient as our Skyway!

Ock, the ultimate put down!  8)

By the way, I am with you on this one.

Gentlemen....I stand with you! What could be is only limited by FDOT and I don't want more super highways!

Careful....whether good or bad, it is important to note that FDOT is the entity that has been managing the HSR studies to this point.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2009, 07:54:35 AM
Careful....whether good or bad, it is important to note that FDOT is the entity that has been managing the HSR studies to this point.

I agree, FDOT has been managing rail studies in general,.........so if we want to see rail in FL ( HSR or otherwise), let's not disparage them.

I would be far more suspicious of a project that removes most freight trains from someone's back yard, without showing any good ridership, and reeking of being a corporate give-away.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 02, 2009, 08:12:22 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 02, 2009, 07:54:35 AM
Careful....whether good or bad, it is important to note that FDOT is the entity that has been managing the HSR studies to this point.

Hmmm, so you question their studies? Well, be my guest and refute their numbers.

Personally I am far more suspicious of a project that removes most freight trains from someone's back yard, without showing any good ridership, and reeking of being a corporate give-away.

Doesn't this HSR proprosal sound like another Disney extortion of taxpayers?

To  deny the points Ock makes as valid, or even cause for further investigation is irresponsible.

It is easy to swoon those who are desparately seeking.

I made this comment about the HSR plan in another thread yesterday.  However, the same questions still apply.  How does it serve the daily needs of Central Florida residents?  Can we do better with $3 billion?

QuoteI will say when it comes to the I-4 corridor, we should place more emphasis on where commuters live and where they typically travel to, as opposed to what corridors have the most grade separations or can be designed for the highest speeds from point A to point B.  This thing reminds me of JTA's first BRT North Corridor down I-95.  Sure it gets you from downtown to Gateway the quickest.  The problem is that no one lives on I-95 and their are no major destinations on I-95.  Does time really matter if you don't provide efficient access to where your populace wants and needs to go? 

The same applies to the I-4 corridor.  Outside of tourist using this thing to get to the airports or Disney, its simply not set up for typical commuter uses because the actual cities outside of Tampa and Orlando aren't centered on I-4.  Nevertheless, this does not mean I'm ready to lead a protest against the tourist train.  If the Feds want to pay for it, so be it.  However, I'm just pointing out the obvious from the perspective of someone who spent +20 years living there.   As planners, designers and visionaries a lot of times we get caught up in the technical aspects of these projects.  Sometimes, its best to sit back and look at these issues from an end user's perspective or a pedestrian scale level. 

With that said, I can see how it will help a tourist get from OIA to Disney or I-Drive (assuming the mouse lets them have a station).  But now for the tough questions.  How much will the average fare be?  How does it serve rapidly growing bedroom communities like Plant City, Lakeland, Haines City and the Four Corners?  What can it do for the residents of Kissimmee or Tampa's booming suburbs of Brandon and Bloomingdale?  Is this train supposed to relieve traffic congestion on I-4?  If so, how can it be set up to remove local traffic these communities generate from the interstate on a day-to-day basis?

The other major problem I have with the fun train is costs.  I believe its best to crawl before you run.  In other words, maybe your first car should be a used one or fairly affordable instead of a lamborghini.  The opposition to rail in this state is obvious.  Dropping $3 billion on a HSR line that will not serve the daily needs of nearby residents is a huge risk to take for anyone who truly backs mass transit.  If this thing fails, we can flush the idea of rail investment in Florida down the drain because it will set us back for decades.  Don't believe so, then take a drive to downtown Jacksonville.  The skyway is the perfect example of trying to run before walking, falling flat on your face and then being to scared to leave the crib again.

Quote from: buckethead on September 02, 2009, 08:17:43 AM

Doesn't this HSR proprosal sound like another Disney extortion of taxpayers?

To  deny the points Ock makes as valid, or even cause for further investigation is irresponsible.

It is easy to swoon those who are desparately seeking.

Ah, but Ock didn't mind the CRX extortion of taxpayers, and didn't think THAT was cause for further investigation or renegotiating. Quite irresponsible there, won't you say?

On the "Disney extortion," I was told that Disney initially didn't want a stop, so please tell me again how HSR is supposed to be a Disney train.........

As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 02, 2009, 08:38:23 AM
As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

Amtrak is working they grow and succeed with every new project.  Ridership is up there are tracks all over the state.  I am not anti HSR it is just that rail money would go so much farther for commuters, residents and even tourists by saturating the state with 90-110 mph trains than just a section of central Florida with one 220 mph super train.  Both would be under the American definition HSR and should Qualify for those funds.

Ask yourself which plan
serves more people?
gives more coverage?
relives congestion on more roads?
has more ROW in place?
can be enacted faster?
claims to be able to break even on costs?
could take you to more destinations you would like to go?
would feed Miami's tri rail, Tampa's streetcar and Jacksonville's skyway?
can make improvements to all of  Florida's metro area rail systems that could be used by those areas to add commuter systems at reduced costs?

They could both be great systems which should we do first?

(http://www.dogcaught.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/img_0058.jpg)
Let's spend 2 or 3 Billion so I can arrive 10 minutes faster...  

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 02, 2009, 09:08:55 AM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 02, 2009, 08:38:23 AM
As I understand it.....initial HSR is projected for Orlando to Orlando Airport since that corridor is in place. The Mouse can do their own mass transit.....I am more concerned about the rest of Florida!

I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

So we should run willy-nilly to Washington with our hands out for a wad of cash just to make sure we get to spend it? This system is so poorly planned (as is) that it has almost no chance to become the seed of a future successful HSR network. The whole HSR Statewide proposal is more like a really bad nightmare rather then a dream of railroaders. Long extensions along I-10 to serve Chipley, Quincy and Monticello, when the CSX mainline is already there with a state passenger rail investment in track, signals, and stations? How about the "Grand Trunk," which completely ignores the existence of Jacksonville, and runs from Lake City to Orlando, via Ocala. Did anyone in Tallahassee ever attend UF? If so why isn't Gainesville to be linked to (Shand's) Jacksonville? Worse
still, the rapidly urbanizing west coast of Florida is pretty much out of the game, sold down the river for stations in Lake Butler and McIntosh?

Our rabid environmentalist readers will enjoy the proposed line from Orlando to Daytona Beach, Orlando to Titusville, and Orlando to Melbourne. Seems it's an either/or choice of routes but however you cut that cake it will stomp all over the headwaters of the St. Johns River. Not to mention cashing out Orange Park, Palatka, and Deland, in exchange for Bunnell and Palm Coast?

No support for Central Florida Commuter Rail? Basing your argument against commuter rail on whether or not your old opponent John Mica supported it, leaves you straining at gnats for attention. At the very worse, the Commuter Rail line is located in the heart of the most densly populated communities in Central Florida. You seem to play the old anti-big industry card and desire to seize the property of a privately held corporation. This is like the FEC RY. moving in and taking a 60 mile chunk of I-95 with no plan to compensate anyone for it.

Florida already has a Billion dollar rail network, lets improve it and use it.

Frankly I don't know what Mica's position is on this issue, though one could tell by just watching which direction you are attacking. I will NOT SUPPORT such a badly planned Mouse Toy, even if you were to revive Jefferson by God Davis, to put his seal of approval on it.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 02, 2009, 09:08:55 AM
I am most concerned with Florida not seizing the opportunity of the availability of dedicated HSR funds that bring much needed jobs to Florida.

As Senate President Jeff Atwater, R-North Palm Beach says 'Government does not create prosperity; however, it is our duty to seize every opportunity to affect the odds in favor of our citizens, our communities and our businesses.

This is ridiculous thinking.  This is the most backwards philosophy ever.  Build train first, think later.  A train from nowhere to nowhere is still a train from nowhere to nowhere whether there is random stimulus money earmarked for it or not.  We have already proved how much Amtrak or the FEC line would benefit from less than $100M, why not start there?

I don't know if the Tebow reference in the title was supposed to be funny, but it was just stupid.  Tebow is far more level headed than this backwards plan for HSR.

I see your point JeffreyS and Ock. However the HSR projects that are expected to be funded by the dedicated HSR stimulus funding are these types:

QuoteAnd these high-speed rail lines aren’t your average Amtrak. Just ask Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle. He recently went on a trip to Spain to check out high-speed rail lines there. Spanish high-speed trains that are a part of the Talgo system travel at 180 miles per hour, and Doyle told USA Today that the ride “is as smooth as riding in an airplane without any turbulence.”
By comparison, Amtrak's Acela trains run on an electrified track and travel at 135 miles per hour, according to USA Today.
Doyle traveled to Spain in late February where he reviewed Spain’s passenger rail system and met with officials from Spain’s Talgo, a company that manufactures passenger trains, according to a press release from Doyle’s office.

http://csg-web.csg.org/pubs/statenews/enews/issue16_2.aspx

Agree with it or not. I don't want Florida to be left behind as it usually is. We are uniquely positioned to take advantage of these dedicated HSR funds. Nationally, the potential routes have already been determined.

At the same time we need to push for Amtrak rail upgrades to be able to speed up existing Amtrak trains ( this is not expected to be paid from the current HSR stimulus pot).

The HSR stimulus money was intended for visionary HSR, not for rail upgrades. I admit however that their offer is just a drop in the bucket compared to the real HSR demand out there.

Faye you make compelling arguements and I will not oppose HSR as long as it is not at the expense of Amtrak coridor upgrades in FLA. Amtrak is the better of two good ideas and should come first.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2009, 10:31:50 AM
Faye you make compelling arguments and I will not oppose HSR as long as it is not at the expense of Amtrak corridor upgrades in FLA. Amtrak is the better of two good ideas and should come first.

Jeffery, once Florida comits a few Billion to High Speed Rail, the chances of us getting proper funding for a California style, state, "higher speed," Amtrak Florida system, will be off the table.
Just as the geniuses in Tallahassee wanted to take the funds from Tri-Rail in South Florida in order to build the Orlando system. Disney influence? I really can't say, but insanity to be sure. We need level heads, good research, use what we have FIRST, then grow into the big leagues, one Amtrak and Commuter Rail line at a time.  

OCKLAWAHA

I agree Ock no doubt HSR should be in line behind Amtrak

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2009, 11:42:38 AM
I agree Ock no doubt HSR should be in line behind Amtrak

In general we are talking about two different pots of federal money, each with varying degrees of availability to Florida.

The HSR federal stimulus money is highly available to FL for the visonary Orlando-Tampa HSR.

So it's not an "either or" proposition. The argument is essentially moot.

Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

Btw, now that I think about it, the Amtrak/FEC application is requesting money from the same pot.

Fedral Funding: Use it or lose it.

Should this be the driving force to building our future?

I like the idea of fast, sexy trains wisking me towards fun destinations. More practical mass transit solutions might not sell as well to a public that votes for candidates they never heard of prior to reviewing a ballot.

All I know about the proposed HSR, I've learned here. Clearly I'm not adequately educated on the issue to make an informed decision, but I am leaning heavily towards a more practical, widespread system, rather than a glamourous amusement ride.

Perhaps the pure sex appeal of a bullet train could attract more tourism, but how many people go to Disney specifically to ride the monorail?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2009, 12:19:43 PM
Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

By definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

We should be able to use the same line for slower moving commuter purposes. In Europe they often have "stop trains" and "intercity" trains on the same tracks.

QuoteBy definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

Sure it was. 

QuoteIt’s important to remember that when Obama and company say high-speed rail, they’re not talking about replicating Japan’s 180-mph bullet trains or France’s 130-mph Train a Grande Vitesse. Right now, high-speed rail in the United States means nothing more than tracks capable of trains running at more than 90 mph. The president conceded our system lags those of other nations but made his ambitions clear.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/04/obama-lays-out/

Its not only for HSR, its also for intercity rail at 90mph or more.  We're the ones putting all the bells and whistles into it.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 02, 2009, 12:23:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2009, 12:19:43 PM
Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

By definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

We should be able to use the same line for slower moving commuter purposes. In Europe they often have "stop trains" and "intercity" trains on the same tracks.

While I have not supported the Orlando - Tampa route for HSR, I WOULD support HSR with some logical, FRENCH TGV "think". It makes sense to use the current CSX, FEC, and NS, for most of our funding and planning.

What I would envision if FDOT or HSR wanted me to go back to work (this time for primitive gringos) is this:

JAX - Palatka - Deland - Sanford - Winter Park - Orlando, then the SAME train with the SAME equipment gets on the I-4 corridor and fly's  to TAMPA UNION STATION, which it can reach on the conventional railroad track. Thus EVERY Amtrak, or State High Speed train, would weave through the Cities on the current railroads, then exit for long stretches of VERY FAST. This is the general formula for France and other advanced HSR systems. With overpasses and fencing, the CSX line from Jacksonville to Orlando could easily obtain 90 mph, ditto the "S" line and FEC. I have even witnessed a CSX freight heading south along the track next to highway US17. Trying to pace the train near Deleon Springs, it pulled away from my car as I topped out at 80. 

Yesterday, I believe that there was a comment from TUFSU1 about the train taking 2 hours from Orlando to Tampa. If we would support a State Amtrak Florida system, those tracks could be upgraded. In fact Central Florida Commuter Rail would rebuild some long sections. In 1954 the trains on the same track, made the trip in 1 hour and 50 minutes.(Tampa sections of the "Vacationer", and
"Miamian."). The trains that did take 2 hours back then, stopped at Kissimmee, Haines City, Lakeland, Plant City etc.. Things have only slowed down over the last 55 years due to density and sprawl all along the route. Again fences, new signaling, track capacity improvements, and overpasses would go a long way, for a lot less then Mickeys HSR on I-4. 

OCKLAWAHA

Here is an interesting article about North Carolina's plans.

QuoteState applies for high speed rail funding in Rowan County
September 1, 2009

Gov. Bev Perdue today announced that North Carolina has submitted the first of its high speed rail applications for funding under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA).

The list includes grade separating Klumac Road in Rowan County.
NCDOT filed six "project ready" applications totaling $92,612,936, requesting $75,950,546 in Federal Railroad Administration grants and pledging a total of $16,662,390 in matching funds. The merit-based funding will be awarded before the end of this year.

If funded, the projects will help retain or create an estimated 1,457 jobs for North Carolinians. The FRA requires the projects to be completed within two years of the grant award.

"These rail projects are critical for communities throughout our state," said Perdue. "Working with our partners in other states will improve the transportation system in North Carolina and in the Southeast."
The State Transportation Department worked with the North Carolina Railroad Company, Norfolk Southern Railway, CSX Transportation and Amtrak to complete the applications. The projects include rehabilitating locomotives and passenger equipment for new service, doubling the size of the Cary station, adding much needed parking in High Point, lengthening the boarding platform in Burlington.

In addition to safety improvement projects that add rail network capacity and improve service reliability, NCDOT also applied for funding to complete environmental studies and engineering necessary to consider service extensions to western and southeastern North Carolina.

The state is partnering with Virginia to request funds to complete final engineering for the development of a shorter Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor route with top speeds of 110 miles per hour, which would connect Raleigh with Richmond.

The two states also will partner to complete a corridor development plan connecting Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh, Richmond and Washington D.C., with frequent, reliable passenger trains that can travel at top speeds of 90 -110 mph.

The second round of applications for funding of a comprehensive corridor development plan is due to the FRA on Oct. 2.

ARRA will provide $8 billion in competitive funding for high speed rail corridors around the country.

http://www.salisburypost.com/Area/090109-high-speed-rail-funding

Geez.....everyone and their brother are gonna leave us eating their dust! We are getting hung out to dry and FDOT is busy flapping lips and trying to increase the asphalt roadways!

Transportation Monster Prophecy Strikes Again:  

(http://webpages.charter.net/suzuya/Seaboard.jpg)

(http://www.sehsr.org/reports/feasibility/graphics/map3-alts.jpg)
The former SEABOARD AIR LINE "S" ROUTE in red... one of SAL'S old colors!

Some of you may recall in my many posts that I said I believe the Southeast Highspeed Rail Corridor would use the former SEABOARD AIR LINE MAIN, or "S" line, before they'd invest more $ in the current CSX route. Well the report of the NC governor, asking for the HSR funding is right on target... and guess where they want to build it?

Read it and weep...

QuoteThe master planning elements make up a feasibility study that will assist the Department in its decisions on project implementation. This report summarizes the findings of these planning efforts for the corridor and provides recommendations for further action. Summaries of these planning elements are given below.


An engineering evaluation of the corridor was completed, which identifies the possible speeds, alignments and their costs. Due to the varied nature of the corridor, the evaluation was divided into two geographical sections. Between Charlotte and Raleigh, the evaluation determined that the existing North Carolina Railroad (NCRR) through Greensboro was the most cost effective route. Most of the upgrades to achieve two hour service from Charlotte to Raleigh can be completed within the existing right-of-way, thus minimizing potential land acquisition costs. Upgrading the track to 95 mph average speeds would cost between $371.4 million and $515.5 million, depending on the exact nature of the alignment, improvements, and cost arrangements. Between Raleigh and Richmond, the evaluation determined that rebuilding the old Seaboard Air Line main line (known as the S line) would be the most cost effective method to achieve 110 mph maximum service between these two state capitals. Reconstruction and upgrade of this route would be between $265 and $320 million, depending on the exact nature of the alignment, improvements and cost arrangements. For both of these segments, this translates to a cost of $2 million to $3 million per mile.

Train performance and train dispatch simulations of the routes were completed. These simulations modeled the speeds of various conventional and high speed train sets on the route to suggest which equipment would work best along the corridor. The analyses show that most likely equipment with tilt technology will be needed to reliably meet the goal of two-hour service between Charlotte and Raleigh; the alternative to meet this goal being to straighten additional curvature beyond that proposed by the engineering evaluation. Between Raleigh and Richmond, the improved high speed S line could be used to relieve some freight congestion on other major north-south rail lines. The modeling also illustrated potential freight and passenger train conflicts on the corridor. These preliminary results suggest that with the increased number of passenger trains, additional track capacity beyond that suggested by the engineering evaluations will be needed at various locations to avoid freight traffic delays along the corridor.

Station and station area standards for the proper planning and construction of high speed rail stations along the corridor were developed. The specific recommendations on site, location, parking etc. in the study will be used in the construction of new stations and the renovation of existing ones to high speed standards.

The environmental screening searched for potential environmental problems with the proposed alignments and other improvements along the Charlotte to Raleigh section of the corridor. The screening found no potential major impacts. The study recommends that a detailed environmental impact assessment be completed of the entire Charlotte to Washington corridor to determine all potential environmental issues and to recommend possible mitigation for any environmental impacts.

Demand modeling of potential passenger ridership and revenue from the high speed operations determined that increasing speeds by 50 percent along the corridor would increase ridership by over 300 percent and revenues by more than 600 percent over current levels. The model looked at various frequencies and fare structures. Most of the ridership and revenue, however, are from passengers starting or ending their trips at cities outside North Carolina. This suggests that the success of the corridor is highly dependent upon improved travel time to Richmond and points north. The modeling also illustrated that improved passenger rail service will reduce auto and air trips along the corridor as well as have a high level of induced travel (i.e., cause travel that otherwise would not have been undertaken).

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/CSX_A_and_S_lines.png/180px-CSX_A_and_S_lines.png)
The dotted lines are the abandoned portion of the "S" line...  

(http://www.robl.w1.com/pix-6/M040347.jpg)(http://www.robl.w1.com/pix-6/M040352.jpg)
Norlina, NC portion of the old "S" mainline.

Passenger trains along the old "S" North of Jacksonville? YEP, could happen! Through Yulee, past Busch, over the Trout River, past Evergreen, Springfield, Shand's, and into Jacksonville Terminal too? YEP, could happen! What about our commuter rail line North to Yulee? YEP, could happen! Government ownership of our port access lines?
YEP, could happen! A new through rail route from Jacksonville to the north? YEP, could happen! Anybody got any land in KINGSLAND? I wouldn't build that house too close to those old RR tracks. Hang on to your hats folks, this train is moving.  


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 02, 2009, 06:00:42 PM
Geez.....everyone and their brother are gonna leave us eating their dust! We are getting hung out to dry and FDOT is busy flapping lips and trying to increase the asphalt roadways!

Please explain why this is the case?

FDOT is more concerned about their primary gorilla....roads! Many many roads....must have more roads! From what I have noticed and seen rail is not on their agenda.....lip service but not substance. Judging from some of the overpasses and intersections that I have had to drive on , I am not sure I would want them involved in a rail plan..........in fact I think that should be a separate Agency who's only mission is rail both for tonnage and passangers.

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 03, 2009, 03:04:10 AM
FDOT is more concerned about their primary gorilla....roads! Many many roads....must have more roads! From what I have noticed and seen rail is not on their agenda.....lip service but not substance. Judging from some of the overpasses and intersections that I have had to drive on , I am not sure I would want them involved in a rail plan..........in fact I think that should be a separate Agency who's only mission is rail both for tonnage and passangers.

CS Foltz, the separate Agnecy already exists, but it does not include freight trains, and rightly so:

Quote
MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is to advance the development of a Statewide High Speed Rail System in Florida in accordance with Article X Section 19 of the Florida Constitution and the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act.

Amendments to the Florida Constitution (pdf)
Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act (2002) (pdf)

As required by the Act, three appointments to the Authority are made by each the Governor, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate. The initial appointments for the Governor were for four years, the House Speaker for three years and the Senate President for two years. Subsequent appointments by each official are for four year terms.

MEMBERS
Lee Chira - Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
President, Lee Chira and Associates, based in Orlando

John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka

Leila Nodarse, P.E - Treasurer
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
President of Nodarse and Associates, an engineering firm specializing in environmental consulting, headquartered in Winter Park

Frederick Dudley
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Former member of the Florida Senate and now an attorney based in Tallahassee

E.H. "Bill" Pitman, P.E.
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Pitman Hartenstein and Associates, Jacksonville

Michael P. Harrell
(Appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Consultant with the Harrell Group

John Larkin
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Alliance Capital Management Group, Orlando

C.C. "Doc" Dockery
P.O. Box 2805
Lakeland, FL 33806
863-665-6252
(Re-appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Author of the Florida High Speed Rail Constitutional Amendment

Donald Crisp
(Appointed by Speaker of the House Allan Bense - 2005)
Vice-President at First American Title Insurance Company

Denver Stuttler - Ex-officio
Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation


FORMER AUTHORITY MEMBERS

Heidi Eddins (Appointed by Governor Bush - 2001)

William Dunn (Appointed by President of the Senate Thomas McKay - 2001)

Norman Mansour (Appointed by Speaker of the House Tom Feeney - 2001)

Jennifer Closshey (Appointed by the House Speaker Johnnie Byrd - 2003)

http://flbullettrain.com/fhsra/5_railauthority.html

FDOT stands for the Florida Dept. of Transportation....just like the USDOT they do everything....roads, transit, avaition, ports, freight, etc.

Now I would agree that many state DOT's are primarily highway-oriented....and Florida's hs been accused of the same thing (left over from the old days as the Roads Dept).....but again, the same can be said for USDOT....which many think is primarily just the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA).

As for the High Speed Rail Authority Faye....it is semi-separate from FDOT (just like the Turnpike Enterprise)....but don't be fooled, its just semantics.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2435/3600066837_7d8a8ff37a.jpg)
Ticket to Gainesville? This is an RDC Car.

Great reply TUFSU1, I don't think any of us would want the HSR authority working with us on an RDC (Rail Diesel Car) shuttle down the branchline to Gainesville. We sure as hell don't want them laying out the track plan for our port. Florida does have a Rail Planning Office, under the FDOT, which is becoming more visible.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 03, 2009, 11:22:02 AM

As for the High Speed Rail Authority Faye....it is semi-separate from FDOT (just like the Turnpike Enterprise)....but don't be fooled, its just semantics.

Well, none of the members are past FDOT folks. What they are is STRONG High Speed Rail Supporters unlike most of the FDOT, which as you said is heavily into roads.

I very much like the separate High Speed Rail Authority. Would like to see more Democrats as members, but overall they seem very dedicated to High Speed Rail.

Glad to hear there is a seperate Office regarding HSR and there needs to be. Any transportation agency needs to be specfic in its goals and objectives! I was under the impression that the FDOT umbrella was a blanket that covered all of transportation in Florida. It is time to start something moving in a positive direction!

Faye....the Authority Board is one thing...but as I've said, it is staffed by FDOT

BTW....FDOT answers to a board as well....the Florida Transportation Commission....maybe you want to check out their board make-up.

Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 04, 2009, 10:36:34 AM
Faye....the Authority Board is one thing...but as I've said, it is staffed by FDOT

BTW....FDOT answers to a board as well....the Florida Transportation Commission....maybe you want to check out their board make-up.

I guess you and others did not see ( or did not want to see) what I posted including source, just a few posts up.

The HIGH Speed Rail Authority is NOT staffed by FDOT. Please reread me previous post and I will highlight in red the relevant portion in the repost below:

QuoteMISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is to advance the development of a Statewide High Speed Rail System in Florida in accordance with Article X Section 19 of the Florida Constitution and the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act.

Amendments to the Florida Constitution (pdf)
Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act (2002) (pdf)

As required by the Act, three appointments to the Authority are made by each the Governor, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate. The initial appointments for the Governor were for four years, the House Speaker for three years and the Senate President for two years. Subsequent appointments by each official are for four year terms.

MEMBERS
Lee Chira - Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
President, Lee Chira and Associates, based in Orlando

John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka

Leila Nodarse, P.E - Treasurer
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
President of Nodarse and Associates, an engineering firm specializing in environmental consulting, headquartered in Winter Park

Frederick Dudley
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Former member of the Florida Senate and now an attorney based in Tallahassee

E.H. "Bill" Pitman, P.E.
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Pitman Hartenstein and Associates, Jacksonville

Michael P. Harrell
(Appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Consultant with the Harrell Group

John Larkin
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Alliance Capital Management Group, Orlando

C.C. "Doc" Dockery
P.O. Box 2805
Lakeland, FL 33806
863-665-6252
(Re-appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Author of the Florida High Speed Rail Constitutional Amendment

Donald Crisp
(Appointed by Speaker of the House Allan Bense - 2005)
Vice-President at First American Title Insurance Company

Denver Stuttler - Ex-officio
Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation


FORMER AUTHORITY MEMBERS

Heidi Eddins (Appointed by Governor Bush - 2001)

William Dunn (Appointed by President of the Senate Thomas McKay - 2001)

Norman Mansour (Appointed by Speaker of the House Tom Feeney - 2001)

Jennifer Closshey (Appointed by the House Speaker Johnnie Byrd - 2003)

Do you see that it is NOT staffed by FDOT?

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone with knowledge out there want to answer these questions regarding HSR down the middle of I-4?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 02, 2009, 08:25:46 AM
I made this comment about the HSR plan in another thread yesterday.  However, the same questions still apply.  How does it serve the daily needs of Central Florida residents?  Can we do better with $3 billion?

QuoteI will say when it comes to the I-4 corridor, we should place more emphasis on where commuters live and where they typically travel to, as opposed to what corridors have the most grade separations or can be designed for the highest speeds from point A to point B.  This thing reminds me of JTA's first BRT North Corridor down I-95.  Sure it gets you from downtown to Gateway the quickest.  The problem is that no one lives on I-95 and their are no major destinations on I-95.  Does time really matter if you don't provide efficient access to where your populace wants and needs to go?

The same applies to the I-4 corridor.  Outside of tourist using this thing to get to the airports or Disney, its simply not set up for typical commuter uses because the actual cities outside of Tampa and Orlando aren't centered on I-4.  Nevertheless, this does not mean I'm ready to lead a protest against the tourist train.  If the Feds want to pay for it, so be it.  However, I'm just pointing out the obvious from the perspective of someone who spent +20 years living there.   As planners, designers and visionaries a lot of times we get caught up in the technical aspects of these projects.  Sometimes, its best to sit back and look at these issues from an end user's perspective or a pedestrian scale level. 

With that said, I can see how it will help a tourist get from OIA to Disney or I-Drive (assuming the mouse lets them have a station).  But now for the tough questions.  How much will the average fare be?  How does it serve rapidly growing bedroom communities like Plant City, Lakeland, Haines City and the Four Corners?  What can it do for the residents of Kissimmee or Tampa's booming suburbs of Brandon and Bloomingdale?  Is this train supposed to relieve traffic congestion on I-4?  If so, how can it be set up to remove local traffic these communities generate from the interstate on a day-to-day basis?

The other major problem I have with the fun train is costs.  I believe its best to crawl before you run.  In other words, maybe your first car should be a used one or fairly affordable instead of a lamborghini.  The opposition to rail in this state is obvious.  Dropping $3 billion on a HSR line that will not serve the daily needs of nearby residents is a huge risk to take for anyone who truly backs mass transit.  If this thing fails, we can flush the idea of rail investment in Florida down the drain because it will set us back for decades.  Don't believe so, then take a drive to downtown Jacksonville.  The skyway is the perfect example of trying to run before walking, falling flat on your face and then being to scared to leave the crib again.

Thanks in advance.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 04, 2009, 12:06:25 PM
Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

That link didn't work for me. Here is a better link:

http://www.mercurynews.com/california-high-speed-rail/ci_13096956

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 04, 2009, 12:29:28 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 04, 2009, 12:06:25 PM
Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

That link didn't work for me. Here is a better link:

http://www.mercurynews.com/california-high-speed-rail/ci_13096956

Hey y'all, this sounds more like a pissing contest between the CALTRAIN folks who probably have a very limited budget, so have planed a lower economy version of the overhead cantenary, and Union Pacific, which want's the full 24' of clearance under the wires. The railroad is upset because the double stack container cars fully loaded won't fit under the wire, killing much of the economy, and raising the price of rail. As for the schedule cutoff times, with PTC and perhaps a third or LOCAL track laid, that can also be solved. This should NOT reflect on anything here. Trains all over the world operate freight and passenger in double stacks and under wire. I haven't studied the case, but it seems the likely cause.

The staff at the FHSRC being FDOT, I believe that TUFSU1 is referring to every planner, pencil pusher, and engineer in the project, rather then the board of directors. (Often these board assignments are simply political pay back for support in an election year, and not much more).
The Board certainly doesn't have to know a darn thing about railroads, as proved by the JTA board being local developers!


OCKLAWAHA

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z276/fayeforcure/KathyCastor.jpg)

QuoteConnectUs also has won the support of politicians, including Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, who on Aug. 18 held a press conference to endorse and announce the official launch of ConnectUs. “We are united, and Florida is ready to get moving,” Castor said.

Florida has a good chance to receive the stimulus funding because it is the only state of the 10 that has secured all of the right of way and all of the permits, she said.

Turanchik said his goal for ConnectUs is to link together political and governmental leaders, business groups, environmental groups, labor groups and Floridians in support of high-speed rail.

“We have a once in a lifetime chance to secure $2.5 billion to build a high-speed rail system down the median of I-4 and raise the foundation for a great transportation system in the state,” Turanchik said. “We don’t want to lose that chance.”

Drumming up support
Online, ConnectUs at www.fastrailconnectus.com touts the environmental benefits and job creation that would come with high-speed rail. Its events calendar will post public events and “milestones” as they are announced. The site features an “action center” that allows users to write e-mails directly to elected officials. ConnectUs, which has a Twitter feed and a Facebook page, encourages visitors to leave comments. â€" Margaret Cashill

http://tampabay.bizjournals.com/tampabay/stories/2009/08/24/story4.html?b=1251086400%5E1976461

That article said "Down the median of I-4"! What the hell are they ingesting? What the hell does I-4 do for the east coast or anywhere else in Florida? If the Mouse wants a rail system, let them build their own!

So right my friend. If I-4 is north of most of the towns between Orlando and Tampa, the only thing building stations on I-4 is going to do is force these towns to reach the railroad. In other words, if this isn't completely a set up by the resident RAT in central Florida, the it smells of SPRAWL development.

The money being lost on this one 70 mile segment could supply all of Florida with luxury trains, speeding at 80-90 mph between every major city.

Nope! Can't do that, makes too much sense, already been done somewhere or other, so lets be bold and do something else STUPID!

M. I. C. K. E. Y.    M. O. U. S. E. !

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2009, 11:37:16 PM
So right my friend. If I-4 is north of most of the towns between Orlando and Tampa, the only thing building stations on I-4 is going to do is force these towns to reach the railroad. In other words, if this isn't completely a set up by the resident RAT in central Florida, the it smells of SPRAWL development.

The money being lost on this one 70 mile segment could supply all of Florida with luxury trains, speeding at 80-90 mph between every major city.

Nope! Can't do that, makes too much sense, already been done somewhere or other, so lets be bold and do something else STUPID!

M. I. C. K. E. Y.    M. O. U. S. E. !

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, as I said previously, I am with you on this.  Just think, if they proceed, you and I will both be able to point to our pet "Mickey Mouse" projects!  >:(

You know Stephen, though I can see that the Florida HSR bypasses downtown Lakeland and downtown Orlando ( for now), I also understand that both downtowns have the ability to provide easy access to the HSR.

In other words, this set up doesn't necessarily cause more sprawl.

What allows me to feel comfortable about the NO SPRAWL effect of HSR is that those who vehemently support this HSR project are themselves very credible in their NO MORE SPRAWL stand:

QuoteConnectUs Executive Staff

Ed Turanchik is the President of ConnectUs Inc. He served on the Hillsborough County Commission from 1990-1998 and on Governor Chiles high speed rail committee in the 1990’s. He now builds affordable, energy efficient urban homes in Tampa.

QuoteTuranchik is widely recognized as an authority and leader on transportation and growth management issues and received the National Metropolitan Planning Organization’s National Leadership Award.

He also has received the 1000 Friends of Florida Public Servant of the Year and Florida Audubon’s Local Public Servant of the Year awards. Turanchik led Florida’s Olympic bid committee in the late 1990’s, which focused its efforts in the I-4 corridor.

I myself received my urban planning training in the world's most densely populated European country in the world.( only Hong Kong and Singapore are more densely populated), so I truly believe in rejecting sprawl.

As an economist, I also believe in ultilizing the most economical route at achieving HSR in Florida: that is down the I-4 median. In addition, lack of curves in that route ( no little detours into smaller towns) allows this train to achieve high speeds.

What good is it to get into the terminal points "10 minutes faster" if a significant portion of I-4 traffic comes from the small towns the train bypasses?  Cost aside, this is the fundamental issue I have with the plan as drawn up. $3.5 billion and we can't even get service to some of the fastest growing cities in the region.

Btw, what would be the difference in time from end point to end point for HSR vs an Amtrak corridor service on existing rail?

QuoteAs an economist, I also believe in utilizing the most economical route at achieving HSR in Florida: that is down the I-4 median. In addition, lack of curves in that route ( no little detours into smaller towns) allows this train to achieve high speeds.

So sprawl didn't follow Disney, or fill in to Orlando International Airport, The Greeneway? There is absolutely nothing to stop developers (many we probably haven't even heard of) from slopping houses and malls all the way to the newest Disney ride.

As a railroad guy, I'd tell you there is no way in hell that I-4 is the most economical route. If you thought Central Florida Commuter Rail was a bloated give away at tax payer expense, you should be pulling your hair out with our HSR plan. We have had dozens of planners, urbanest and railroaders tell you that the I-4 deal stinks to high heaven. Why not embrace a state wide approach? Why Disney, Airlines, and the median of a expressway? Why the fixation on Orlando - Tampa? Ever seen I-95, JTB or Philips Highway during rush hours? Why not Jacksonville?

You do realize of course, that a self contained and exclusive passenger railroad will have to have work shops to support the trains. Amtrak already has major shops in Miami and Sanford, FEC has them in Jacksonville as does Watco Shortlines. So this train will miss every bit of the support system requiring a whole new shop complex and worse, one that can't be used by any other carrier.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2009, 10:33:53 AM
What good is it to get into the terminal points "10 minutes faster" if a significant portion of I-4 traffic comes from the small towns the train bypasses?  Cost aside, this is the fundamental issue I have with the plan as drawn up. $3.5 billion and we can't even get service to some of the fastest growing cities in the region.

Well, in Europe there is the "intercity" HSR, and the "STOP" train that stops at the smaller towns. They are two distinct entities that often do share some track.

I'm not sure about the "Fastest growing cities" label going into the future, when we might experience a mass exodus from FL, the way CA has experienced. But regardless, we can have local convenient transportation to connect up with the Florida HSR, or like people who use Barta in San Fransisco,.......many in the suburbs drive to their Barta stop.

^local and express would work great on the existing CSX rail line.  However, I've heard that the local transit option is not on the table for HSR in the median of I-4.  Tufsu1, can you confirm?

As for the cities inbetween, you can't ignore them, which the current HSR plan does.  For example, those commuting between US 27 and the Bee Line or from Lakeland/Plant City to I-75 and Tampa are more likely to clog up the road than tourist commuting directly from DT Tampa to Disney or MCO.

Tying them into the system should be a higher priority than express service between DT Tampa and MCO.

Put it this way you do not see the express elevator that skips many of the lower floors without already having elevators in place to serve all of the floors.

It's just another case of Florida "leadership," with twinkle in their glazed eyes. "We're Florida afterall, the great playground of the world, certainly they'll fund us even if we proposed a rocket train to the moon!"

My best guess is, there will be a reality check at the door when that cash goes sailing out. I suspect the Midwest High Speed Rail Coalition to score the lions share of funding. Why? It's a multi state effort that spreads trains across an entire section of the country. It will improve existing track, build overpasses and raise speeds to 79-90 MPH.

Second will be the North Carolina - Virginia pact to rebuild the old "S" line from Richmond to Raleigh, with 90 MPH track and some sections of faster track.

We could probably count Washington - Oregon Cascade Corridor, and some funds to improve things in California.

Those of us that show up with Buck Rogers in hand, will be thanked, told to "keep on improving your plan." Knowing Florida, we'll go home with tail between our legs and crank up the expressway machine once again. Economic stimulus you understand. At about this time in history, Jacksonville will lay down a 1000 foot platform with an office trailer downtown for a depot. S.N.A.F.U.  

OCKLAWAHA

^I can so see that happening. I think if Jacksonville sadly has a better chance to be connected to Savanna with the Southeast HSR than the Florida plans coming together.

(http://www.whistlin-dixie.com/pictures/PIC-0011.jpg)
Worth 1,000 words!

YUP Jeffery, too right.

Just on the merits of the extensive work both North Carolina and Virginia have done in reestablishment of passenger rail service, Southeast HSR will move ahead. We might even get a little residual benefit from whatever they do north of the border.

My crystal ball is still somewhat foggy on the subject, but I could see another NY-FL train and/or Atlanta getting into the system. A new train routing down the Crescent Limited's foothill route to Charlotte, and hence nearly straight south through Columbia, Savannah, JAX, would probably be a real winner for ridership.

It's sad that Florida doesn't have enough sense to be VERY active with our north of the border partner states. I think HSR is going to have to be a regional interest item before it ever approaches what the EU has. A pact with Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina... could pay off in huge dividends down the road. Meanwhile getting the entire fleet of MIDWEST - FLORIDA trains back in service only helps our neighbors out, and oh BTW, it puts Jacksonville back on top as the meeting hall of the rails. Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis, Knoxville, Cincinnati, Louisville, Nashville, Chattanooga, Birmingham, Atlanta, Macon, Valdosta, Jessup, we would all dance to the same tune, but the band would be on Jacksonville's stage.

In fact we don't even need FDOT to play with us to kick something like this off, JTA could set up a meeting of the movers and shakers, and get the ball in play.

OCKLAWAHA

Is there anyone more qualified than you to ignite such an endeavor?

If so, how do we contact them?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 07, 2009, 10:23:26 PM
That article said "Down the median of I-4"! What the hell are they ingesting? What the hell does I-4 do for the east coast or anywhere else in Florida? If the Mouse wants a rail system, let them build their own!

You have to start somewhere....and Orlando-Tampa is the middle of the state.

Its similar logic as saying that a regional transit system should start in downtown (i.e. middle)

(http://www.whistlin-dixie.com/pictures/PIC-0011.jpg)

This picture brought about a childhood memory I had almost forgotten about.  In kindergarten or first grade, they loaded us up on a train in downtown Jax and we rode it out to one of these little middle-of-nowhere "stations", either Baldwin or Callahan.  I think it was Baldwin. Our parents came there to pick us up.

While we waited for parents,  I remember watching a freight train going the opposite way and counting something like over 200 or 300 cars or more on it, thinking it was the longest train I had ever seen.

Imagine school kids today getting such rides from Amtrak, FEC or CSX.  Hardly.  I miss the good ol' days when you could still do tours of industry without your host worried over law suits.

I agree to a certain extent there tufsu1.........but starting in the middle of the state seems to me to be the long way around the horn? Orlando to Tampa has the chance to serve how many people compared to say Tallahassee to Gainsville? Or maybe Miami to Daytona. I don't see the option to expand without causing problems. I could throw in , how about Pensacola to Tallahassee? At least all of those options have either north south or east west options with existing trackage in place. Just a matter of scheduling.......but Orlando to Tampa would not serve more people but cater to a select few.........Mouse excursions and the like! HSR needs to be set up in an area that would serve the most for the buck! So convince me that area would be a viable test of useage.

Jacksonville looks to be connected to the entire east coast and Atlanta from the SEHSR corridor. So maybe Florida should start here as an expansion from a bigger system.

I agree Jeff..........really good question! I have to question the survey takers and the manner and questions that come up with that area is the best place to start! Somehow starting in the middle seems self limiting to me unless your talking about a City but in a State? I do have to question that premise!

If we end up connected to the Southeast HSR but disconnected from the rest of Florida it could be a Tourist boon. If you want to go on your vacation to Florida on HSR then we would be your spot. A train ride to a cruise ship, the beach, golf or NFL game from a southeast city would set up perfect. A day trip to Savanna a bonus.

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 09, 2009, 06:57:36 AM
I agree to a certain extent there tufsu1.........but starting in the middle of the state seems to me to be the long way around the horn? Orlando to Tampa has the chance to serve how many people compared to say Tallahassee to Gainsville? Or maybe Miami to Daytona. I don't see the option to expand without causing problems. I could throw in , how about Pensacola to Tallahassee? At least all of those options have either north south or east west options with existing trackage in place. Just a matter of scheduling.......but Orlando to Tampa would not serve more people but cater to a select few.........Mouse excursions and the like! HSR needs to be set up in an area that would serve the most for the buck! So convince me that area would be a viable test of useage.

really?....may I suggest checking the population #'s...or even just the intracity trips....trust me, there are far more people making the Tampa-Orlando trip then Pensacola-Tallahassee or Tallahassee-Gainesville.

remember that the original HSR legislation mandated connecting the 5 LARGEST urban areas in the state....those have been defined as Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 09, 2009, 08:31:25 AM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 09, 2009, 06:57:36 AM
I agree to a certain extent there tufsu1.........but starting in the middle of the state seems to me to be the long way around the horn? Orlando to Tampa has the chance to serve how many people compared to say Tallahassee to Gainsville? Or maybe Miami to Daytona. I don't see the option to expand without causing problems. I could throw in , how about Pensacola to Tallahassee? At least all of those options have either north south or east west options with existing trackage in place. Just a matter of scheduling.......but Orlando to Tampa would not serve more people but cater to a select few.........Mouse excursions and the like! HSR needs to be set up in an area that would serve the most for the buck! So convince me that area would be a viable test of useage.

really?....may I suggest checking the population #'s...or even just the intracity trips....trust me, there are far more people making the Tampa-Orlando trip then Pensacola-Tallahassee or Tallahassee-Gainesville.

remember that the original HSR legislation mandated connecting the 5 LARGEST urban areas in the state....those have been defined as Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami. 

tufsu1, thank you for inserting a little reality check here. I'll add that from those who've been involved with HSR from the beginning, I even heard Disney initially did not want a HSR stop. For HSR opponents to keep bringing up Disney as a focal point is highly disingenuous.

I agree that the idea of a rail alternative between Tampa and Orlando makes sense as an initial rollout.  The cities aren't that far apart, I-4 is a mess and there are a chain of decent sized cities in between (Polk County alone has over 600,000 residents).  My grip comes with the current proposal not being set for everyday Central Florida commuters.  We could get more bang for our buck by planning for the end user.  So in this instance, I can see how the system will have more appeal to tourist than Central Florida residents.  Thus the Disney/fun train label.

I like to poke fun with the mouse comments. I think it would be great to tie any rail system into the parks in Orlando.

the catch is, if you go to disney, your not allowed to go anywhere else. Disney wants an exclusive stop. no Universal, no convention center, no sea world, and .... THATS a reality check. whats the point in one train to mickey mouse town? there isnt one. it would be useless.

-Ock's Daughter.

(p.s. im a mickey mouse fan and an orlando lover...but one train to disney just makes no sense..if your going to do a high speed rail system it should serve the RESIDENTS. go from Deland/Deltona, thru sanford, lake mary, winter park, orlando, kissimee, maybe add in ocoee or altamonte. and beyond that go to haines city, lakeland, plant city, and then eventually tampa. so it makes use to all the residents who NEED high speed transportation and dont want to be stuck on i-4.... having a stop at disney, universal, sea world... great ideas.. considering thousands of residents work there, however if they cant come to a JOINT agreement, screw them. they are not as important as our residents getting from point A to point B.)

I have no problem with Disney adding a connection to HSR that is exclusivly theirs.

They can do what they wish with their own money. Perhaps they could add a station at OIA that is connected to, but independant of the PUBLIC  system. ;)

I don't know if their attitude has changed but Disney wanted no parts of HSR if another station at Int'l Drive was to be a part of the plan.  They turned something that started out as a decent vision into a circus built around private sector competition for tourist dollars.

I also feel they should be able to refuse public mass transit within the confines of their privately owned land.

It seems short sighted to me, but they seem to do okay at making profitable decisions.

The Disney problem is bigger then that. The great and powerful State of Florida allowed them to incorporate as a CITY, back when they first got building. So in effect, Mickey's kingdom is like the landing, City of Disney, with an over stuffed "Town Center" sitting on top.  


OCKLAWAHA

So many of you have commented on the coordinated planning done by FDOT on other threads. High speed rail planning, funding exists separately from commuter rail. Surprised?

Quote from: lindab on September 09, 2009, 06:59:25 PM
So many of you have commented on the coordinated planning done by FDOT on other threads. High speed rail planning, funding exists separately from commuter rail. Surprised?

I believe all of us are well aware of that fact lindab (maybe with the exception of Faye, but she's moving up in class pretty fast).

I believe the real rub comes in when you calculate the length of the "corridor" and compaire it with other cities and states. What we are calling HSR, blows right through the second richest commuter corridor in the state. This is like building High Speed Rail between San Bernandino, and Long Beach, California. (This route via freeway 91 - The Jack Rabbit Trail and the Long Beach Freeway - is 72 miles long). It just doesn't fit and it's in the wrong spot to help the blooming cities urbanize rather then sprawl.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I don't think this system will cause any city to sprawl.  I say this because it ignores most of the cities along the corridor.  Hopefully, they'll tint the windows because it may be a lonely ride between Tampa and Disney.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 09, 2009, 09:05:57 PM
Ock, I don't think this system will cause any city to sprawl.  I say this because it ignores most of the cities along the corridor.  Hopefully, they'll tint the windows because it may be a lonely ride between Tampa and Disney.

I figure if the stupid thing is ever built, it will miss those cities from Kissimmee all the way to Valrico. They won't build stations at anything but Disney and North of Lakeland, at first, but with demand for local traffic building, everyone will want in on the act. Developers will see to it that the communities well South of I-4 surge North to take in the interstate and their own unique station. Hell the developers will probably build the stations too. Once we fill in every inch of land between US 92 and I-4, then we'll probably decide on Commuter Rail!

In the meantime, dark tinted windows might be a good idea. I wonder if a cammo paint job would keep the trains from scaring the wildlife?  

OCKLAWAHA

Disney train!!!

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=144745&provider=rss

Oh, sorry, is that not what we're talking about? :P

Today the Governor and Cabinet of the State of Florida signed a historic resolution proclaiming their support of Florida’s application for federal funding to begin building a super-regional corridor that will connect Tampa-Orlando-Miami by high-speed rail, as well as traditional inter-city rail.

You can support this resolution by clicking here and sending an email message (suggested text provided) to your elected officials asking them to back Florida’s high-speed rail funding and development.

More Facts:
The Florida application for funding meets the goals of President Obama and the U.S. Congress. This game-changing development for the citizens of Florida would create tens of thousands of construction jobs, 25,000 new permanent jobs and reduce road congestion and air pollution.

The Governor and Cabinet request the support of President Obama, U.S. Transportation Secretary, Federal Railroad Administration, Florida’s Congressional delegation, legislature and its citizens to support Florida’s application for $2.6 billion in federal stimulus funds to connect more than 76% of Florida’s residents.

The Tampa-Orlando high-speed train will connect two international airports that annually attract more than 50 million visitors â€" now principally connected by a single six-lane highway. This highway was built with a median ready to accommodate high-speed rail. It’s shovel-ready so that construction can begin quickly.

Eventually the Orlando-Miami segment would add another international airport servicing 55 million passengers.

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/journal_action_center.php?action=view_comments&journal_id=154&type=#

Oh Goody.......Tampa/Orlando and Miami get HSR.............well kiss my grits! Nice to know that my tax dollars are hard at work in other parts of Florida! Makes me wonder if it will be about 2099 before we get the chance to participate?

You can drive down there and use it any time you want!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 17, 2009, 09:03:26 PM
Oh Goody.......Tampa/Orlando and Miami get HSR.............well kiss my grits! Nice to know that my tax dollars are hard at work in other parts of Florida! Makes me wonder if it will be about 2099 before we get the chance to participate?

dude....Jit will be much harder for Jax to have high speed rail if we don't support that infrastructure in Florida's bigges cities too.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 17, 2009, 10:06:35 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 17, 2009, 09:03:26 PM
Oh Goody.......Tampa/Orlando and Miami get HSR.............well kiss my grits! Nice to know that my tax dollars are hard at work in other parts of Florida! Makes me wonder if it will be about 2099 before we get the chance to participate?

dude....Jit will be much harder for Jax to have high speed rail if we don't support that infrastructure in Florida's bigges cities too.

Yep, I agree TUFSU1. As soon as Florida has a plan to build that "infrastructure IN Florida's biggest cities," for Florida Citizens, reaching out where they work, live and play, THEN I too will support it. As long as the concept is to connect airports to tourist attractions, I will protest louder with every wasted spade of dirt. Certainly call or write your representative, and tell them until they plan to use this train to connect Floridians to our homes, work and play, you will NOT support this train, or them as your representative if they support it.

My crystal goes dark as soon as I inquire about Mr. Mickeys Magic Train. The plan is bad, the location is horrible, and the politics (of Disney) inexcusable. It was one thing to sell out every bit of beauty, as well as our soul, (much of it in private parks) to Walt Disney. From Master Piece Gardens, to Cypress Gardens, Six Gun Territory, Ocala Caverns, Marineland, to Dixieland, Weeki Wachee, Sunken Gardens, Trains of Yesterday and Storybook Land, Dizzyland and the Jacksonville Beach Midway... GONE. Now the completely well intentioned, High Speed FOX system, reeks of political favors and self sacrifice on the alters of the commercial airline industry.

The current High Speed Rail plan should be REJECTED by every THINKING FLORIDIAN. Cut to the bone, it's a bad, bad, plan. We are sewing the wind, and we'll reap the whirlwind. This FOX train does not have a single redeeming value to the citizens of our great state. Jacksonville? Forget it coach, Miami, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa and St. Petersburg, don't even know where Jacksonville is. Washington, D.C. and Tallahassee, have been afflicted by the same rejection ignorance they have heaped on us.

While Florida may indeed get a few dollars of the overall package, it isn't even going to be enough to pay for the paper the reports are written on. If we get any REAL railroad money, it's more likely going to be spent where it can effect Amtrak, present and future. Adding a second and third train to New York, another couple of trains to Atlanta-Nashville-Louisville-Cincinnati-Chicago-Cleveland-Detroit as well as Birmingham-Memphis-Kansas City-St. Louis-Little Rock-Tulsa, will warm up the hearts of more American voters then will any version of the mouse train. The same can be said for the New Orleans Route, starting with the BIG EASY, and rolling on to Houston-San Antonio-El Paso-Phoenix-Los Angeles as well as New Orleans-Shreveport-Dallas-Ft. Worth-Oklahoma City-El Paso and even Denver within sight.

This whole Mickey Mouse affair reminds me of a story from the War of Yankee Aggression. Major General John Sedgwick, United States Army, at Spotsylvania, May 1864, "What! What! Men dodging this way from a single bullet! I am ashamed of you. They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." He was shot in the head and killed as he was speaking. I am certain that those who know railroads and Florida history will conclude that the Fox (FOX = Florida Overland Express) will have an ending every bit as dramatic as the late General Sedgwick.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock I am afraid that I have to agree! I have said that if "Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it"! but that has nothing to do with the rest of the State! If just available numbers were the ruling criteria then Miami should be considered since its much larger than Orlando...........adding St Pete does not change much. This whole idea of that part of the world should lead the rest of us down the crimson path of transportation is somewhat misleading. Yes we need a mass transport system that is efficient, state of the art and cost effective but not starting there! I don't wish to drive for 3 hours plus to ride on the train for 2 hours and go no where and have no possibility to go elsewhere unless I wish to fly. If I want to fly then I would leave from Jacksonville and go from there!

The debate is on in Polk County.  I find it interesting that several Polk County groups want the one station in their immediate area, while Jacksonville's leaders won't come out and back any type of rail plan publicly.  A decade ago, who would have ever thought Lakeland would be more progressive on this issue than Jacksonville?

QuoteGroups Argue for Location of Rail Stop in Polk

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/FHSRPolkStations.jpg)

By Bill Rufty
The Ledger

Published: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 at 9:48 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 at 11:51 p.m.

LAKELAND | As Florida competes for a slice of $8 billion from the federal government for high-speed rail, groups in Polk County are lining up for a shot at getting the one station that would be built here.

More than 200 people filed into the Sikes Conference Center in The Lakeland Center on Wednesday during the first hour of a three-hour informational session on the Tampa-to-Orlando phase of the high-speed rail.

That section of the "bullet train" will run from the Orlando International Airport to downtown Tampa with a stop in Polk County.

The Florida Department of Transportation sponsored the event, as it will similar events in Orlando and Tampa, to explain the plan to the public and to get residents' reactions.

Three of the proposed sites are in the Lakeland area, while one is north of Auburndale.

Polk County will definitely have a stop, but it is just not certain where, said Nazih Haddad, the Department of Transportation project manager.

Previously, the department was planning to choose between a stop at Kathleen Road north of Lakeland or at the western end of the Polk Parkway where it joins Interstate 4, about 1 mile east of Hillsborough County. Both have already passed environmental review.

But now, the city of Lakeland has requested that a stop be considered at Carpenters Way near the Wedgewood Golf and Country Club, and the University of South Florida Polytechnic wants the station to be at its campus in the northwest corner of the eastern end of the Polk Parkway.

The county can only have one stop. And that decision probably will be made by the Transportation Department, instead of a vote by the nine-member Florida High Speed Rail Authority. The authority apparently has been left to die by Gov. Charlie Crist, who after more than 2 1/2 years in office has made no reappointments to it nor replaced two members who have resigned.

"The department has taken the lead on the projects now and is not going to the authority to get approval," said Haddad, who served as the executive director of the authority when it was fully constituted and active in the decision making.

But the department is using the same consultants selected by the authority a number of years ago: HNTB as the general consultant and Parsons Transportation.

Part of the reason for the department's taking on the lead from the authority, whose future is questionable, is that time is short to move on obtaining $2.4 billion of the $8 billion in federal high-speed rail stimulus money being offered to states to get bullet trains up and running.

For almost 30 years, Florida officials have discussed creating a high-speed rail system across the state.

There have been at least two commissions created.

The movement stalled under Gov. Jeb Bush, who opposed efforts to create a bullet train and instead supported behind-the-scene talks for an Orlando commuter-rail system.

While the two are vastly different, they are not incompatible.

The High Speed Rail Authority gained new life with the federal government's making $8 billion available for bullet train projects across the nation and pushed Crist and the department earlier this year to get going on the grant applications.

The authority now appears to have been left at the station standing by an empty baggage cart.

The money will go to states that are furthest along in their projects.

With routes and engineering plans ready for the first phase, Florida is closest to being ready to begin construction, supporters have said.

Supporters such as a group formed by Ed Turancik of Tampa say the project can be under construction by 2011. Construction can actually begin before a Polk County site is chosen.

Two stations are certain: Orlando International Airport, which likely will use the old terminal as the intermodal station, and downtown Tampa, where an intermodal site has already been selected.

Likely to become sites as well are the Orange County Convention Center off of the Beach Line Expressway and a site on the Walt Disney Company property east of the U.S. 192 interchange with I-4.

The bullet train will mostly run in the median of I-4 to Tampa.

The only other stop will be somewhere in Polk County.

The addition of two more sites in the consideration for the county's single station surprised some.

But David Steele, director of marketing for USF Polytechnic, said putting the site at the university's new campus is the most equitable for everyone in the county.

"It is far and away the most accessible for those who live in East Polk," he said. "It is important to understand that this bullet train will run both ways, not just take people out of the county. People will want to come in to USF Poly and the high-tech companies that will locate around it."

Reaction was enthusiastic among the residents attending the session, many of whom live near the Interstate or have to use it daily.

Quentin and Martha Hamilton filled out comments for the department, which they said would be favorable.

"If they don't do something like this and soon, I-4 will collapse under it on traffic," Quentin Hamilton said.

Maurice Dionne said the high-speed rail is important for the future movement of traffic in the area.

"I live about a quarter of a mile from the interstate and I am a little interested in what the noise is going to be like, but I still support this. We have to have it," he said.

The Transportation Department has already filed two applications for high-speed rail stimulus money, one of which also includes a request for money to buy track from CSX Transportation to resurrect the defeated SunRail tracks with the argument that it will carry people into Orlando from the airport.

Another application, this time for the construction money to begin actual moving of earth and the laying of rails, will be filed before the end of the year.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090916/NEWS/909165079/1338/NEWS00?Title=Groups-Argue-for-Location-of-Stop-in-Polk

If we were smart about this, all of these places deserve a stop along a network that connects regional destinations being bypassed by the current plan.  If they really want to make this a viable alternative to driving on I-4, it has to serve a larger segment of those using I-4. 

By the way, here is the proposed USF Poly's campus along I-4 (courtesty of Heart of Florida at SSP).  It is supposed to be a New Urbanist community.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/Williams-DRI-Colored.jpg)

Nice to know that this system will start and stop at Airports at both ends! If you have not been to Orlando of late...........I have to ask - How do you go down I4 to get to the airport? My point is that if I4 is such a bear to travel during rush hour how do you get to the southeast side of Orlando to make it to the train? Does this mean that more Airport access roads will have to be built.....not to mention parking both long and short term? This setup will complicate things unless your flying in and then you need to be going to either end by getting on at either end.............this makes sense?

I am heading to tampa soon. It would be so great if I some other option than having to fly directly, all the way to Tampa.

It would be so nice if I could just Fly to Orlando, then take a lovely fast train the rest of the way onto Tampa's airport! I wouldn't have to worry about sitting in that same old airplane seat for an extra 14 minutes because I took a direct flight. It seems a no brainer to fly to Orlando, get my bags, take them to the boarding station, pay another fare, then enjoy the remainder of my trip to Tampa.

You Jacksonvillains should be happy to contribute to such an awesome system. Maybe one day, many years from now after the brilliance of this system shines through, you will get a run added near your area.

How much time could you save in time spent searching for direct flights?

Gee big guy...........you could always have the fun of the drive?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 22, 2009, 08:07:12 AM
Gee big guy...........you could always have the fun of the drive?

Again, that would be too direct. People should get past the old "flat world" notion that travelling directly to your destination is the best way to go. If we had HSR (MCO-TPA) think of all the possibilities!

Fly to Tampa, train to Orlando.
Drive to Orlando Fly to Tampa, Train to Orlando.
Fly to Orlando, rant a car to Tampa, Train to Orlando.

These are but a few of the virtually unlimited possibilities! Think of the FUTURE!

I agree there are options! One better would be to train from Jacksonville to Tampa but that doesn't appear viable for the future. I sure am glad I don't have to go that way! I4 is a pain in the butt at rush hour!

I hope the parody is clear. ;)

Yes Sir it is!!! Tongue in cheek humor is appreciated! I wonder if the US Mail has an express package system over the same route? That would be even cheaper............you could mail yourself! Yuk Yuk!

CS....what makes you think that both end points are at an airport?

The endpoint in Tampa will be downtown....unless itis extended over the Bay to Pinellas....and then it will end in the mid-County Gateway area.

Then how am I going to get to TPA form MCO?

Map showed Orlando end at the Airport........where exactly not sure since map is not too difinitive. Tampa end showed at airport end there also.........or is the map incorrect?

See reply #87 from lakelander............map is not to scale but close enough to assume airport connections at either end..............so is the map correct?

the map is coprrect....the ORL end is at the airport....but the Tampa aiport (plane symbol) is 5 miles from the downtown end point....it is just a map scale issue.

OK...........much thanks for the correction big guy! But it still does not compute as a model! I still think that there are better places to set up a trial system. There are connection issues at either end that would prohibit expansion into a full fledged mass transit system that would be statewide!

Here's a report on how HSR should be phased in around the country

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/17/heres-how-we-should-build-out-a-high-speed-rail-network/

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 22, 2009, 06:36:43 AM
Nice to know that this system will start and stop at Airports at both ends! If you have not been to Orlando of late...........I have to ask - How do you go down I4 to get to the airport? My point is that if I4 is such a bear to travel during rush hour how do you get to the southeast side of Orlando to make it to the train? Does this mean that more Airport access roads will have to be built.....not to mention parking both long and short term? This setup will complicate things unless your flying in and then you need to be going to either end by getting on at either end.............this makes sense?

That's just the tip of this iceberg. Here's your answer from one who did 10 year's (yeah it was that bad) in Seminole County.

From downtown Orlando, one can take I-4 south to Orange Blossom Trail, hence through 632 stoplights down to Sand Lake Road, Left on Sand Lake, until it merges with the 528 tollway, the first exit to your right is Semoran, or SR436 which leads into the Airport Property.

or

From downtown Orlando, one can take the East/West Tollway, Eastbound, and a couple of bucks later, come to SR436 turn right and 332 stoplights later, you pull into OIA.

or (if your blessed to live North of Orlando in the burbs)

You can get on I-4 and travel (sometimes 55 mph) into downtown Orlando, then make your choice. But the REALLY blessed can get on the 417 Tollway in Lake Mary, and zip around the whole East Side of the City, until you come to the 528 Tollway, West to the Airport - BUT - You better have about $8.00 in cash or a Florida Turnpike SunPass.

Fact is, as planned it does not serve a single highly populated area until it dumps you out in the middle of a freeway interchange a mile or so from the Tampa Union Station (which they don't plan to use - After buying it for this purpose years ago). The worst part for not just Jacksonville but Miami, West Palm Beach, Daytona Beach and especially Ocala, Gainesville, etc... Is Florida MIGHT and I am serious about that "MIGHT" get some funds to move forward, but this project is going to over spend it's headlights so fast the State DOT won't know what hit them. Not to mention having the fast lanes of I-4 tied up with construction for XX years. There simply will not be the funds, or the will, to spend another dime ANYWHERE else in this State. Talk about a Sky-Highway, meet the mother of all failed adventures.

Can't you just hear the talk now, "We'd love to help Jax, but if we just add 4 miles to the Orlando, HSR into downtown, and that Billion dollar Tampa LRT connection... Well... You'll understand..."

OCKLAWAHA

I understand Ock...........like I have said before.......If Mickey wants a railroad, then let Mickey build it! Orlando is not the area to set anything up for a trial run. Makes me wonder just who funded the survey that says that part of the world is the best place for setting this up and just how it was worded? I know that questions can be slanted to produce answers one is looking for but still............I have to question who?

QuoteFlorida is a leading contender for high-speed rail funding

(http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/ar/385/255/2009/09/22/14781_orlando-high-speed-rail.jpg)
The ride from Tampa to Orlando International Airport would take 64 minutes on a high-speed train.

By TED JACKOVICS  | The Tampa Tribune

Published: September 25, 2009

Updated: 10:06 am

TAMPA - As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation's first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

On Friday, 40 states will file detailed high-speed rail project applications with the Federal Railroad Administration. In December, President Barack Obama will announce which will get money from the $787 billion federal stimulus plan to generate jobs.

If Florida gets the $2.5 billion it seeks, it will represent a stunning reversal of political fortunes â€" after 25 years of promise and setbacks â€" that will provide thousands of new jobs as early as 2011, when construction on the 95-mile Tampa-Orlando segment could begin.

Full Article:
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/25/251006/florida-leading-contender-high-speed-rail-funding/news-metro/

Sure is a good thing that the world will end in 2012, otherwise we'd all see this thing drag every rail project in our future right into a sewer.  

OCKLAWAHA

We can thank Mayor Johnny and his faithfull servants for a lack of vision and no plan what so ever! Rail......what the hell is that? Bozoo's can not see past their noses or their pockets!

Will Florida Be America’s Shining Example That 21st Century Rail Can Work?Posted on Friday September 25th by Jebediah Reed


6diggs
If high speed rail is ever going to have a chance of taking root in the US, we’re going need to need a working example that makes everybody jealous.

Specifically, we’re thinking here of a world-class high speed link here in the US, that will make the media machine whir and tourists talk, that looks pretty on tv and execerbates regional rivalries. Since human beings are monkeys and all, generally the quickest way to get us to care about anything is to turn it into a status game and provoking indignation and insecurity. It would be our version of Madrid-to-Seville.

So, let’s say New York out of nowhere decides to roll big and fast-tracks a 250-mph link between NYC and Albany. State pols like Hiram Monserrateâ€"better known as the fellow who’ll take a busted bottle to his girlfriend’s face if she displeases himâ€"can make the journey in half an hour. Seriously: half an hour to Albany. That’s quicker than a lot of subway trips to Brooklyn. Plus, no walking around in sock feet at LaGuardia or creeping along the Major Deegan expressway. It’s a crazy-world proposition, of course, except that if China were running the USâ€"as it someday mightâ€"that shit would already be in works. Why? It just makes sense.

Across the rest of the country, this link would serve as both a model and a gauntlet thrown down. In Texas, state legislators might see the quick, easy and civilized trip Hiram was taking to work and say, “Damn, maybe we should think seriously about getting this T-Bone thing built sometime this century.” And so on.

It could happen! Maybe. Ever since we saw Jay Yarrow make an argument along these lines over at Business Insiderâ€"giving all the stimulus money to California’s HSR project, to create a national modelâ€"we’ve been noodling about the possibilities.

But our problem with Jay’s case is that California is such a massive project that by the time it’s built out enough to convince anybody of anything, another decade or more will have passed. We need something of more modest scope, and we need it now. Ideally, of course, this would be Washington DC-to-New York. But given all the chefs that would have to be involved in cooking that stew, we’re not optimistic on that front (short of the magical emergence of a Robert Moses-style “infrastructure czar” emerges who can just punch it through).

But it’s looking more and more like Florida might be the answer. From today’s Tampa Tribune:

As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation’s first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

Of course, this is contingent on getting $2.5 billion in federal funds from the stimulus sweepstakes. But there’s plenty of reason to think that might happen. The state owns the right of way, and the project is essentially designed and shovel-ready. The link would also be meaningful first step toward a larger systemâ€"targeted for 2017 completionâ€"connecting Tampa and Orlando to Miami (and Jacksonville, via Amtrak.)

Now, this sounds almost perfect â€" so naturally there’s a problem. In this case, it’s that the train to Orlando doesn’t actually go to Orlando. It goes to the airport. Now, Orlando has a very busy airport so this proposed route would certainly be of interest to many Floridians and tourists. But this also means it’s a glorified airport shuttle rather than a real intercity rail link, of the sort that civilized people elsewhere in the would want and demand.

At The Transport Politic, Yonah offers a fine suggestion: “In Orlando, trains could continue up I-4 into downtown after the Convention Center stop, and then head back towards the airport, from which trains south to Miami would eventually extend.

The downside of that routing change would be slowing the project down and interfering with this whole “showpiece” business. The upside would be, you know, doing it right. Jeez, Marsha, why does everything always have to be so complicated!

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 25, 2009, 09:10:17 PM
Now, this sounds almost perfect â€" so naturally there’s a problem. In this case, it’s that the train to Orlando doesn’t actually go to Orlando. It goes to the airport. Now, Orlando has a very busy airport so this proposed route would certainly be of interest to many Floridians and tourists. But this also means it’s a glorified airport shuttle rather than a real intercity rail link, of the sort that civilized people elsewhere in the would want and demand.

At The Transport Politic, Yonah offers a fine suggestion: “In Orlando, trains could continue up I-4 into downtown after the Convention Center stop, and then head back towards the airport, from which trains south to Miami would eventually extend.

The downside of that routing change would be slowing the project down and interfering with this whole “showpiece” business. The upside would be, you know, doing it right. Jeez, Marsha, why does everything always have to be so complicated!

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

We better change the route or this is all the HSR anyone is going to see. It should be possible to swing into the CSX Orlando Mainline somewhere South and West of the Amtrak Station, and certainly before the Church Street Station. Otherwise the whole project is a downside... along with missing Tampa Union Station (which we also already own).  

OCKLAWAHA

And it took a 400K study to come to this conclusion? Screwed again...........I can see it coming! Anyone want to take bets Florida will lose out again? If Mickey wants a train.......let Mickey build it!

CS Foltz, let's recap the excellent article I previously posted about Florida's exceptional opportunity!

QuoteWill Florida Be America’s Shining Example That 21st Century Rail Can Work?

If high speed rail is ever going to have a chance of taking root in the US, we’re going need to need a working example that makes everybody jealous.

Specifically, we’re thinking here of a world-class high speed link here in the US, that will make the media machine whirl and tourists talk, that looks pretty on tv and execerbates regional rivalries. Since human beings are monkeys and all, generally the quickest way to get us to care about anything is to turn it into a status game and provoking indignation and insecurity. It would be our version of Madrid-to-Seville.

California is such a massive project that by the time it’s built out enough to convince anybody of anything, another decade or more will have passed. We need something of more modest scope, and we need it now. Ideally, of course, this would be Washington DC-to-New York. But given all the chefs that would have to be involved in cooking that stew, we’re not optimistic on that front (short of if the magical emergence of a Robert Moses-style “infrastructure czar” emerges who can just punch it through).

Florida might be the answer. From today’s Tampa Tribune:

As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation’s first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

Of course, this is contingent on getting $2.5 billion in federal funds from the stimulus sweepstakes. But there’s plenty of reason to think that might happen. The state owns the right of way, and the project is essentially designed and shovel-ready. The link would also be meaningful first step toward a larger systemâ€"targeted for 2017 completionâ€"connecting Tampa and Orlando to Miami (and Jacksonville, via Amtrak.)


http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

It's quick, it's relatively inexpensive, and it's a great showcase for HSR FAST.

Besides as Floridians we'd do anything to bring jobs to our state, wouldn't we?!

Those dedicated federal HSR funds are nothing to sneeze at. Let's bring $2.5 billion to Florida!!!!!

And let me remind you of tufsu1's recent comment to you:

Quotedude....Jit will be much harder for Jax to have high speed rail if we don't support that infrastructure in Florida's biggest cities too.

So as a Congresswoman, would you be supporting the proposed HSR sytem?

Have you considered any points you have seen made here on MJ? Clearly we have some valuable expertise on the board and it seems to me that those with expertise in rail logistics believe the HSR proposal as written is another white elephant. Can you show evidence to the contrary?

What area of district 7 do you expect the greatest voter support from?

I'm in your district Faye, and would be interested to know your position.

I don't get it Faye, are you saying you support HSR because it will bring $2.5 Billion to the state in "free" Federal dollars? I don't care who wins your race, but who ever wins, needs to step up and lead. Nobody can tell us that a rail line from Orlando, which doesn't go into Orlando, to Tampa, that misses the regional rail terminal in Tampa, is going to be a winner. It might have some novelty value but as transportation need, it won't do a thing for Floridians.

The evidence is flawed too. For 30 years we've been hearing of Mag-Lev, flying trains and every other manner of device from OIA to Disney. Now the whole thing has been neatly packaged to sound like America's front running HSR project. Do you smell a rat in this plan? Anyone could write glowing successful projections of a high speed rail line from Callahan to Waldo, and package it to sound like the Jacksonville - Gainesville HSR link. Won't work. Sure we can get free money. I can go to the county and get free birth control pills too, but you won't see me hanging around down there.
It just isn't needed the way they have it planned.

In Europe these trains enter into most cities over the regular routes (read that Amtrak in the USA) they obtain their exclusive HSR line after leaving the major terminals. Take about 50% Sunrail and 50% HSR, talk it up and you'd have a winning combination.  

OCKLAWAHA

Faye...........you misunderstand my trepidation! I have no problem with 2.5 Billion Dollars showing up in Florida for a mass transit solution..........I do have doubts that it will ever take place. I have posted before "If the Mouse wants a railroad, then let the Mouse build it"! Federal Funds (mine and your tax dollars) to be used to benefit a minority and very small chunk of Florida will be wasted and more than likely this will be just a Mouse feeder system. This is not an accurate test platform for a system viability and demonstration purposes. The current plan is more of an airport shuttle service to a downtown area rather than a true HSR System to prove the concept of moving numbers of people from point A to point B. I am trying to keep an open mind so convince me if you can. I am more than willing to discuss the issue but I still have major reservations as this test is set up!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 26, 2009, 07:24:31 AM
And it took a 400K study to come to this conclusion? Screwed again...........I can see it coming! Anyone want to take bets Florida will lose out again? If Mickey wants a train.......let Mickey build it!

and why do you think $400,000 is a lot for the study....in fact, I can tell you that about $10 million has been spent on studies for the current HSR proposal (TPA-ORL-MIA)...understand that detailed environmental and investment grade ridership studies don't come cheap!

tufsu1........HSR is a different ballgame compared to the JTA Study conducted by the Pennsylvania Consulting Firm. I understand environmental/investment grade studies and the need for them, but question the cost for what I see as a rehash of past studies with a dose of MJ slant on things! I question 400K cost for something that I could have generated and would have if asked. HSR is something else and I still say..........Mouseville wants a railroad, then let them use their money to build it! I can not see using my tax dollars to build something that is of no benefit to me what so ever!  2.5 Billion cost of system for that part of the world and it will be wasted without any benefit to the rest of Florida.

buckethead, Ock and CS Foltz, I think it's going to be hard to find common ground if we don't at least agree that every tourist taken off the road spells relief for the local commuters.

This tourist vs resident commuters issue was also what killed rational cost/benefit thinking in past light speed rail considerations, though I would have wanted to have the LRT proceed anyway:

QuoteHoenstine, a general contractor, said he voted against the (light rail) train from downtown to International Drive because it wouldn't have had as many riders as one running from I-Drive to the airport.

Supporters understood that but said the feds had approved money only for the downtown route that would serve actual residents (vs. tourists).

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-scott-maxwell-where-now-091809,0,7796673.column

From a pure cost/benefit perspective, higher ridership irrespective of tourist vs resident commuters is preferable over lower ridership with mostly resident commuters.

Are you claiming that the HSR plan will draw more riders by appealing to tourist only instead of being set up to serve multiple markets?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 27, 2009, 08:09:53 PM
Are you claiming that the HSR plan will draw more riders by appealing to tourist only instead of being set up to serve multiple markets?

You're kidding right?

I am claiming that the mix of tourist AND resident commuters is very beneficial for HSR. Being fixated on primarily resident commuters would be a mistake.

I'm just trying to understand what the decade old defeated Orlando LRT plan has to do with the current HSR plan.

With that said, I'd agree that being fixated on either option only would be a mistake.  Unfortunately, my fear is that the HSR plan is overly fixated on serving tourist at an astronomical cost that if it fails, it could wipe out other rail projects in the works.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 27, 2009, 08:36:05 PM
I'm just trying to understand what the decade old defeated Orlando LRT plan has to do with the current HSR plan.

Well, I keep hearing this tourist train description of HSR,........which is of course an exageration since we well know that resident commuters will also be served by HSR.

Ironically those who opposed the LRT in the 1999 4-3 vote against it, opposed it because they felt a better route existed I-drive to the airport rather than I-drive to DT. The I-drive to the airport would have had high tourist ridership, and higher overall ridership than the I-Drive to DT route.

QuoteHoenstine, a general contractor, said he voted against the (light rail) train from downtown to International Drive because it wouldn't have had as many riders as one running from I-Drive to the airport.

Supporters understood that but said the feds had approved money only for the downtown route that would serve actual residents (vs. tourists).

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-scott-maxwell-where-now-091809,0,7796673.column

Then when the commuter rail talks were crowding out the LRT revival in 2001, that issue was corrected for LRT ( better tourist capture). Unfortunately, by then, commuter rail had pushed out LRT as a priority:

QuoteIt's alive! Light rail heads for I-Drive.(Public transportation in Orlando)(Brief Article)
Orlando Business Journal|
May 18, 2001 |
KRUEGER, JILL |


New study outlines a path even previous opponents like.

ORLANDO -- It's back.

And it's heading for International Drive.

A light-rail system linked to the tourism corridor now is formally under consideration, less than two years after a similar proposal died a political death at the hands of Orange County commissioners.

An even bigger surprise: Despite light rail's past record, I-Drive business owners appear willing to reach consensus on a route.

"The recommendation to sit down with business leaders before the route is laid out is a very favorable direction," says Alan Villaverde, president of the Efficient Transportation Committee on International Drive and a critic of the first light-rail proposal.

Discussion of a southern leg to the rail system is unexpected. The most recent focus has been on studying a possible light rail. system running alongside Interstate 4 in north Orange County through Seminole County.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-10626220_ITM

Most everyday I-4 commuters will not be served by HSR (as currently drawn up).  There simply aren't enough stations in between the end points and the fares will most likely be too high for everyday use.

So is the current HSR proposal a showcase gimmick or a useful and sustainable transit necessity?

Somwhere in the middle?

Imo, like the skyway, its a good idea gone bad. 

Its probably somewhere in the middle but more on the side of a showcase gimmick.  A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 27, 2009, 09:18:14 PM
A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

Again, you are talking serving only our state's population, vs ridership that includes resident and tourist commuters.

Higher ridership is more sustainable,..........higher ridership should include tourists!

QuoteCrist endorses Florida HSR plans
September 16, 1:36 PM
Jacksonville Transportation Examiner

 
(Photo â€" Leo King
Neither Jacksonville nor Tampa may ever have stations as busy as St. Charles Station in Marseille, France, in 2005, but Floridians may see high-speed trains like SNCF’s TGVs mixing with commuter trains in terminal areas by 2014.2014 would be the target year for fast trains

“ConnectUs” said yesterday it won Gov. Charlie Crist’s support for federal stimulus funding requirement of $2.6 billion to develop the Tampa-Orlando-Miami High speed rail corridor as well as the Jacksonville-Miami intercity Amtrak plan.
The resolution was sponsored by Florida’s Chief Financial Officer, Alex Sink, and seconded by Atty. Gen. Bill McCollum.
Members of ConnectUs and its coalition of business, labor and environmental organizations testified before Crist and his cabinet.

The coalition includes Broward Workshop, Florida Building Trades Council, AFL-CIO, Florida Audubon, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Central Florida Partnership, Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce, South Florida Business Alliance, Tampa Bay Partnership, and Tampa Downtown Partnership.

Sink and McCollum are the leading Democratic and Republican candidates for Governor. Crist's term expires in 2010 and he is running for the U.S. Senate seat recently vacated by Mel Martinez.

Sink's and McCollum's support sends a strong message to President Obama that Florida's High Speed rail application will have the continued support of the likely next Florida governor, ConnectUs posted on its web site.

Crist is expected to sign a proclamation soon endorsing high speed rail for Florida. Appearing in Tampa on Friday, the Governor says he is all for it as long as it doesn't cost Florida any money. Money for the project comes from the Feds and the state doesn't even have to spend money to acquire land, because the median on I-4 has been left open for high speed rail from Tampa to Orlando.

ConnectUS President Ed Turanchik said High speed rail could connect Tampa and Orlando by 2014. President Obama is expected to make his a billion dollar decision by end of this year. The President has the final say on who gets stimulus money for high speed rail and Florida is making a case to get its share.

The Tampa to Orlando route would be the first part of the system.

Trains would travel more than 100 mph, and would start at the Old Morgan Street Jail in downtown Tampa. There would be stops in Lakeland, Walt Disney World and Orlando International Airport.

According to Former Hillsborough Commissioner Ed Turanchik, if Obama chooses Florida, the project could be up and running by 2014. He said the construction of the project would create thousands of jobs at a time when Florida truly needs it.

He said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

On August 25, ConnectUs, Inc. said it and its coalition of business, labor and environmental groups had sent letters of support and endorsement to USDOT Secretary LaHood in support of Florida’s application seeking $30 million for the Preliminary Engineering and NEPA Environmental studies for the Orlando-Miami corridor.

“This is the first demonstration of the advantages of working together,” said Turanchik. “We have organizations from around the state supporting the Florida Department of Transportation’s Orlando-Miami application. We all get the big picture and will continue to work together to see it happen.”

The Florida DOT split the Tampa-Orlando-Miami project into two separate applications in order to comply with federal funding criteria. The agency is expected to submit a “Tract 2” application on October 2 for $2.5 billion for the Orlando-Tampa corridor.

The Orlando-Miami study will look at two specific corridors. The first would run from Orlando International Airport along the Beach line to I-95 and would provide service to Cocoa Beach and Melbourne plus south Florida.

The second alignment would run from Orlando International Airport along the Florida turnpike to Fort Pierce and then to south Florida. Both alignment options would serve West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and the Miami Intermodal Center.

ConnectUs is a Florida not-for-profit corporation.
Useful website: http://www.fastrailconnectus.com

http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 27, 2009, 09:40:58 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 27, 2009, 09:18:14 PM
A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

Again, you are talking serving only our state's population, vs ridership that includes resident and tourist commuters.

Higher ridership is more sustainable,..........higher ridership should include tourists!

Again, I'm not talking about picking and choosing.  higher ridership should include appealing to both tourist and local commuters.  Unfortunately, what's proposed does not do this.  If it did, it would provide decent access to areas like Plant City, Brandon and Haines City in addition to Disney and the Green Swamp.

Not to mention Ponte Vedra Beach. ..................


What the heck, pencil Jacksonville in as well.

High ridership should be the goal no matter what or where a system is installed. But a Mouse feeder system does nothing but insure "tourists" get first priority and unless the cost of riding reflects that point then the local riders are in essence paying for the tourist to be able to ride. This will help out Disney World but what about the rest of the Floridians? We get to pay for the install with Federal Funds (that is our tax money by the way) so the idea of free money does not hold water! Any system should be geared towards "RIDERS" period. Light rail is one thing but a HSR system is another animal...........two different concepts but both a common point - moving people from one point to another! LR is an intercity people mover and HSR is city to city system!

Since you're getting down to brass tacks, we should mention that the funds are money that is actually borrowed, to be repaid by our grandchildren who will in turn likely be asking thier great, great grandchildren to finance their public funding.

If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

HSR is the family of six buying one Ferrari to get everyone to work, school, the Doctor, shopping and entertaining out of town guests instead of buying a mini van, a SUV, a sedan, and a truck then pocketing the extra 100k.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 28, 2009, 08:31:04 AM
HSR is the family of six buying one Ferrari to get everyone to work, school, the Doctor, shopping and entertaining out of town guests instead of buying a mini van, a SUV, a sedan, and a truck then pocketing the extra 100k.

Man!... When you put it like that, it doesn't sound like a really wise decision.  ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2009, 07:12:07 AM
If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

From a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project. The HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn’t have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.
Trains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

Compare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

Now, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

QuoteHe said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

I bet a regular Amtrak train down the FEC from Jax to Miami would arrive before a new high speed train from Jax to  Miami through Orlando. This is why the hub and spoke system for a passenger railroad is a bad idea.

Quote from: Lunican on September 28, 2009, 09:56:56 AM

I bet a regular Amtrak train down the FEC from Jax to Miami would arrive before a new high speed train from Jax to  Miami through Orlando. 

Of course, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

The key difference here is that the high speed rail route does not already exist. We are going out of our way to spend billions of dollars when we already have a faster route in place.

To use your airline analogy, it's like building an airport in Atlanta so you have a place to refuel your private plane halfway to DC. You could have just bought a a non stop ticket on a flight leaving tomorrow.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 11:06:58 AM
The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

Yes tusfu1, but airplanes don't stop in Palatka, Deland, Sanford and Winter Park. Depending on how many "spokes" one wants to build, a hub and spokes rail system could get very expensive, with very little bang for the buck. When a single longitudinal passenger train can cover several mini-corridors in one pass, there is no reason to bust up the trip, thus adding, jobs, locomotives and needless other equipment and facilities. Example: DC to Chicago, ONE TRAIN, Washington-Cumberland, Cumberland-Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Cleveland-Toledo, Toledo-Chicago. How many changes would that equate to for a through passenger beyond any one of the hubs?  

QuoteThe coalition includes Broward Workshop, Florida Building Trades Council, AFL-CIO, Florida Audubon, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Central Florida Partnership, Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce, South Florida Business Alliance, Tampa Bay Partnership, and Tampa Downtown Partnership.

...and the Transportation Professionals in these groups are who? Don't believe the hype Faye, this is a bad plan, unless it is radically changed. HSR as a "EPOCT" show piece would just add another reason for a million or so people a year to go to crowd Orlando to play with Mickey. If I were in your shoes as a serious contender, I'd be searching for the numbers from DISNEY, of passengers arriving from OIA, which depend solely on Disney Bus Transportation. THERE is the key to your ridership. We'll kill off a few dozen 43 passenger motor coaches and replace them with a $2 Billion dollar train. Likewise, due to Orlandos very bad highway planning, and the lack of through routes, I think you would find the Commuter Train would blow the socks off the projections, be it standard CR or LRT.

CS, LRT is intrAcity, HSR is intercity, at least in theory.  

OCKLAWAHA

I don't disagree Ock...I'm just saying that sometimes a direct route is not feasible...and that a transfer point might make sense.

For example, there is no need to build a direct rail line that goes from Jax. to Sarasota....just have a line that goes through Tampa...that way someone who is coming from Orlando could travel through Lakeland to Tampa, then transfer to Sarasota.

In the case of HSR, routes from Tampa-Miami would still travel through Orlando...and extending that up to Jax via I-4/I-95 might work too...but it would not make sense to build a dedicated HSR line that went from Daytona to Melbourne (the part of I-95 that won't be covered by the proposed lines)....or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:01:12 PM
...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 11:06:58 AM
The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

I agree, it's really important to maximize ridership. That's why I can't understand the resistance to making rail in Florida user friendly to tourists. Tourists are used to rail travel, and are more likely to make heavy use of available rail.

Again: for every tourist we take off the road, we create relief for a resident commuter.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 28, 2009, 12:14:33 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:01:12 PM
...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

please...you and I both know there are no plans for an HSR route from Orlando to Lake City!

btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:40:21 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 28, 2009, 12:14:33 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:01:12 PM
...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

please...you and I both know there are no plans for an HSR route from Orlando to Lake City!

Good Gosh tufsu1, you simply MUST learn how to smile! Damn, are you off your medication again?
But turns out you are right, they no longer plan to go from Orlando to Lake City, they've changed it to TAMPA to LAKE CITY!  Simply the pipe dreams of idiots and fools?

(http://forcechange.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/florida-high-speed-rail-map.jpg)

(http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/images/route-map_all_a.gif)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

Thanks tufsu1.

Turns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

I see no downside to this at all.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.msg99787.html#msg99787

Ock...all they are doing with that map is saying that rail could go in the interestate median...which means I-75...and whether good or bad, Lake City isn't actually on the interstate :-)

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 27, 2009, 09:40:58 PM
According to Former Hillsborough Commissioner Ed Turanchik, if Obama chooses Florida, the project could be up and running by 2014. He said the construction of the project would create thousands of jobs at a time when Florida truly needs it.

He said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

You really believe an everyday commuter would be willing to pay around $20 one way every day to use this thing?  With the lack of stations, the only business commuters who would use this on a regular basis would either have to fly/in out of MCO or work in DT Tampa.  However, common sense (no studies needed here) would assume most going into DT Tampa would use TPA before MCO.  For those using I-4 for daily local trips between the end points, the train would be useless because the stops aren't set up for their use.  So now, we're really down to tourist as the primary user base, which you have already admitted.

If the fare is anything over $10 one way, I'd also question the overall attraction for a tourist.  Most tourist don't travel alone, especially to a place like Orlando and Disney.  For a family of four, even at $10/person that's $80 round trip and you'll still have to rent a car once you get to your destination (unless its only on Disney's grounds).  Even at that price, it would be cheaper to rent the car at the airport (assuming you flew into OIA instead of Sanford, Daytona, TIA, St. Pete/Clearwater or Sarasota, etc. or did not take Amtrak or Greyhound) and driving to your final destination.

The overall success of the plan is also highly reliant on the ability of local communities to fund their own citywide mass transit systems to connect with this system.  The way its going, this thing could be built and fall flat on its face before LRT and other forms of rail appear in Tampa, Pinellas County, Orlando or Lakeland.

Again, we're only talking about something that covers around 80 miles with only five stations in a growing region with over 7 million residents.  In the end, good idea (ex. connecting three adjacent growing metro areas with rail), bad solution (ex. cost..which leads to higher fares, ignoring potential everyday riders, etc.).

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 08:59:17 PM
Ock...all they are doing with that map is saying that rail could go in the interestate median...which means I-75...and whether good or bad, Lake City isn't actually on the interstate :-)

Ock, I would not worry too much about that map.  If it ever happens to that extent, it won't be within our lifetimes.  My guess is once the Republicans are back in office, HSR's funding will cease to exist.  So what ever we end up with within the next 4 to 8 years is what we may be with for the long haul.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 28, 2009, 12:24:31 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 11:06:58 AM
The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

I agree, it's really important to maximize ridership. That's why I can't understand the resistance to making rail in Florida user friendly to tourists. Tourists are used to rail travel, and are more likely to make heavy use of available rail.

Again: for every tourist we take off the road, we create relief for a resident commuter.

I guess this is the part I don't understand with your argument on this issue.  I agree, it's important to maximize ridership.  However, I don't agree that this plan, as drawn up, does that.  Instead, it ignores a significant portion of potential ridership.  It would be better if the plan accommodated both.

Btw, I don't even see Orlando being a "hub" for this system.  Once fully built out, Orlando's station is nothing more than a stop along the way.  The "hub" it will be, is a hub for local Orlando traffic.  By the same token, every HSR station, if developed properly, would be a mass transit hub for the community it serves.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 28, 2009, 03:33:30 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2009, 12:57:32 PM
btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

Thanks tufsu1.

Turns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

I see no downside to this at all.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.msg99787.html#msg99787

I hate to keep picking on you because its nothing personal, but you do know you need to clarify this statement.  I know you're not a fan of Sunrail, but this is flat out dishonest.  Their costs are different and what you would be paying for and receiving in return are different.

Btw, the Florida HSR plan would make a lot more sense if planners take the path of what the Midwest is doing.  Their plan is pretty logical.

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 28, 2009, 09:49:04 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2009, 07:12:07 AM
If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

From a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project. The HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn’t have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.
Trains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

Compare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

Now, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

Anything to dispute here lakelander?

The only things I forgot to add in are:

Quote5. For every mile of new track built, 31 jobs are created vs using existing rail. Florida Families who can contribute to our economy again, creating a multiplier effect for our economy.

http://www.wesh.com/money/20446050/detail.html


6.  Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/27/co-high-hopes-for-high-speed-rail/news-politics/

What a huge stimulus to our economy,..........yet another positive financial consideration!

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 28, 2009, 09:57:12 PMAnything to dispute here lakelander?

Sure.  I'm your huckleberry.

QuoteFrom a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project.

I'm not emotionally tied to either project.  If anything, I'd prefer a statewide Amtrak corridor service to replace both of them.  With that said, your commuter rail numbers are cooked and you know it.  That number includes a couple of hundred million dollars worth of highway overpasses that were built, regardless of if Sunrail comes on line or not.  That number also includes annual O&M costs for a set number of years, ROW acquisition costs and upgrades to the CSX S line to handle shifted Central Florida freight traffic.  The HSR number does not include previous ROW costs or potential annual O&M cost.  If you're going to compare them head to head, at least come to the table with the same standard judging criteria.

QuoteThe HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn't have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

We do pay federal taxes, so we'll pay either way.  there is no such thing as "free money."  Btw, who will pay to operate this thing?  Is it a setup similar to Jacksonville's skyway, another "free gift" from the feds?

Quote2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.

The estimates for the skyway were pretty impressive too.  If there's one thing about statistics, they can be easily cooked to support the outcome you desire.

QuoteTrains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

That's nice but how fast will they get me to Winter Haven from Orlando or Plant City to Tampa?

QuoteCompare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

Better yet, compare it development or job creation-wise to the Sunrail project.  Personally, the CSX upgrades do more for the state than Orlando's passenger operations would do.  I know a lot of out-of-work industrial workers in Central Florida who would love to take up one of the new rail/distribution/manufacturing jobs generated from the proposed Winter Haven yard.  If you don't know, that's an area that has been devasted by the decline of the citrus processing, phosphate industry, manufacturing and real estate markets.

Quote3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

Baloney.  Very few mass transit systems pay for themselves at the ticket box.  Don't expect this to be any different.

QuoteIf the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

This is a possibility.  However, if it fails to pull in the promised ridership it would be our own "big dig" and kill every other rail project proposed in this state.

Quote4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

A statewide intercity corridor service would be economically feasible.  However, Florida's HSR project and economically feasible don't belong in the same sentence. 

QuoteNow, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

Well economic development stimulated by rail lines in cities like Charlotte, Salt Lake City and Houston has been proven to blow away original ridership estimates for those projects.  Partially, because dense transit friendly infill development provides these systems with a dedicated everyday user base.  Nevertheless, don't overlook the other benefits of Sunrail.  They include:

1. Improved statewide freight rail capacity and service.

2. A new railyard and industrial hub in an area of the state suffering from a decline in industrial production.

3. The potential establishment of the CSX A line as an intercity passenger rail connection between Central and North Florida.

4. An easier path for a commuter rail line on the same track between DT Jax and Clay County to provide an alternative to the longest daily commutes in the state.

5. The construction of an intermodal railyard at Jaxport.

6. The construction of the Springfield Bypass rail line, which would spur industrial development in Nassau County and free up Northside Jax rail corridors for commuter rail.

QuoteThe only things I forgot to add in are:

Quote5. For every mile of new track built, 31 jobs are created vs using existing rail. Florida Families who can contribute to our economy again, creating a multiplier effect for our economy.

http://www.wesh.com/money/20446050/detail.html

Only if you don't include the economic spinoffs I mentioned above.

Quote

Quote6.  Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/27/co-high-hopes-for-high-speed-rail/news-politics/

What a huge stimulus to our economy,..........yet another positive financial consideration!

Both would create jobs during physical construction.  However, one would create a ton more in the long run for a fraction of the price.

I agree that we'll NEVER see it built out to either map of dreams. The danger I see in those maps is that some highly "respected" planners, the State DOT, Rail office, etc... Could come up with such a STUPID IMAGE and expect us to swallow it. Any train that misses Jacksonville, is a train that missed Florida's railroad hub.  

OCKLAWAHA

Update on the price of a one way fare.  It may be closer to $30.

QuoteTAMPA - As key political factors fall in place, Tampa, Lakeland and Orlando are leading contenders to launch the nation's first true high-speed rail corridor, with 150 mph trains running by 2014.

On Friday, 40 states will file detailed high-speed rail project applications with the Federal Railroad Administration. In December, President Barack Obama will announce which will get money from the $787 billion federal stimulus plan to generate jobs.

If Florida gets the $2.5 billion it seeks, it will represent a stunning reversal of political fortunes â€" after 25 years of promise and setbacks â€" that will provide thousands of new jobs as early as 2011, when construction on the 95-mile Tampa-Orlando segment could begin.

The Florida funding request also covers planning an Orlando-Miami segment that could complete a 361-mile high-speed rail corridor between Tampa and South Florida in 2017.

That 180 mph-plus East Coast corridor would cost about $8 billion, not including right-of-way purchases. Amtrak could provide additional service from Jacksonville south.

Potential drawbacks â€" including construction and operations costs and how much demand there might be to pay $30 for a 64-minute ride from Tampa to Orlando International Airport â€" appear to have been relegated to the background.

Why? The prospects of jobs â€" at a time when it's common for hundreds of people to vie for a handful of positions.

"High speed rail will bring an unprecedented number of new jobs to Florida, with the overriding goal of supporting the federal recovery plan," said U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, who has participated in several White House discussions on the topic this year.

"At the same time, anyone who has traveled around the country or to Europe knows how important the investment can be to modernize transportation," she said. "The high-speed rail project can provide a real shot in the arm you don't see happening from real estate."

Estimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

Florida's prospects

Interviews with congressional and state officials and local business interests reveal advantages Florida is expected to have when the Obama Administration makes its initial funding choices:

Environmental plans for the Tampa-Orlando corridor are complete, unlike other U.S. corridors.

Florida is the only state that has acquired a high-speed rail right of way â€" the median of Interstate 4, estimated to be worth more than $100 billion.

Construction could begin as early as 2011, providing the Obama Administration with potential political gains in an important presidential election swing state.

Forty states are competing for $8 billion. At least $5 billion more from annual federal budgets could be allocated to 10 high-speed corridors nationwide.

Florida's proponents acknowledge the tough competition, but say it is advantageous that their bid covers the construction of the entire project from Tampa to Orlando, unlike states such as California, where state money would be required in addition to the federal dollars.

Competitors could seize upon Florida not proposing some state matching money as a point in their favor, National Association of Railroad Passengers executive director Ross Capon said. But Capon said another factor â€" how operational costs would be covered â€" could play a role. Those details have not been released.

Another advantage for Florida is that its lobbying effort enjoys unusual bipartisan participation. Supporters include the Republican governor, both Florida U.S. senators, eight Democratic and three Republican congressmen; 21 state Republican and seven Democratic legislators; and a broad representation of business groups, the advocacy group FastRailConnectUs.com says.

Vice President Joe Biden and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in June made public comments supportive of Florida's rail plans, with LaHood saying Florida and California were leading contenders. LaHood is scheduled to address a transportation conference in Orlando next month.

The business community has rallied to the cause, as well.

"Our company has a strong interest in transportation initiatives that benefit all sectors of the economy," said Becca Bides, spokeswoman for Busch Entertainment Corp. "As a significant employer in both Orlando and Tampa regions, we also are interested in bettering transportation options for our 11,000 employees."

"We are encouraged by the opportunities that high-speed rail could bring to Florida," Walt Disney World manager of media relations Zoraya Suarez said. "We would work with local officials to place a station for the new system on or near our property, taking into consideration the needs of both tourists and local residents."

One initial drawback in both Tampa and Orlando would be the lack of state-of-the-art mass transit to provide connections to and from high-speed rail in 2014. Hillsborough County's first light rail lines serving downtown would not be possible until 2018 â€" pending approval of a 1 cent county tax, among other factors.

More than mobility

While high-speed rail evokes notions of a fast, comfortable trip commonplace in Europe and Japan, a recent Washington policy shift emphasizes economic development and wise land use that a tandem of state-of-the-art local transit and high-speed rail can promote.

"My experience is that an investment in transit intersects with land use and economic development," said G.B. Arrington, a principal with the transportation development firm PB PlaceMaking, who helped write a new Federal Transit Administration policy on ranking transportation projects for funding that took effect in July.

"For places that are successful, it is all about having a long-term vision of a community. Florida's density and activity centers make high-speed rail a logical fit."

That's the groundwork Lakeland businessman Doc Dockery produced in gaining voter approval in 2000 for a constitutional amendment for a high-speed rail system. Then former Gov. Jeb Bush persuaded voters in 2004 to remove it.

Former Hillsborough County commissioner Ed Turanchik, who is leading the high-speed rail lobbying in Florida, has invoked the performance of University of Florida quarterback Tim Tebow in his efforts to build support.

"High speed rail is the Tim Tebow of transportation," Turanchik said. "It's a game changer.

Facts:

Speed: Up to 150 mph between Tampa and Orlando, averaging 86 mph; 180 mph on the Orlando-Miami segment, averaging 102 mph. By contrast, Amtrak's Acela service between Boston and Washington is billed as high-speed rail, but the trains average only about half their possible top speed of 150 mph because of track limitations and en route stops.

Travel time:
Tampa to Walt Disney World:
High speed rail: 42 minutes
Car: 78 minutes

Tampa to Orlando International Airport:
High speed rail: 64 minutes
Car: 88 minutes

Annual ridership: 2.8 million to 3.2 million passengers, with trains making 14 to 22 round trips daily on the Tampa-Orlando corridor.

Estimated costs from Tampa: $25 one-way to Disney; $30 one-way to Orlando International Airport

Yet to be answered:

Can people really give up their cars?

A report by the Washington-based Cato Institute released earlier this month warned that "high speed rail is not 'Interstate 2.0,'" a network that would transform national transportation the way the Eisenhower Administration's Interstate highway program did.

The average American traveled 4,000 miles on interstates in 2007, but would only travel 60 miles a year on high speed rail, the Cato report stated.


Reporter Ted Jackovics can be reached at (813) 259-7817.

QuoteReader Comments

Voice your opinion by posting a comment.

Posted by ( tdave365 ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:34 am.

$30 is NOT a lot of money in exchange for fluid mobility between Orlando and Tampa. When gas prices are low it might cost as much or less to get in a car, but who the heck is focusing only on COST? Someone driving has to push through high speed traffic (most folks are breaking the speed limit if only because they HAVE to in order to avoid a wreck), thereby risking life limb just to enjoy a Saturday. I would much rather hand $30 to someone, load my family into a train car and spend time with them laughing and playing them for 45 minutes, than avoiding their death and soaking up all the stress that comes from that. I would make a Tampa to Orlando trip many times as opposed to rare "project vacation" times if I could do it easily, effortlessly, and without stress. A high speed rail connection would allow just for that.

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Posted by ( cavedog_the_remix ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:41 am.

Rail based systems are a 19th century solution to a 21st century problem. I urge all of you to do a search using the terms 'Light Rail Myths', and see for yourself.

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Posted by ( jmoore001 ) on 09/26/2009 at 08:51 am.

tdave365 - yeah $30 to LOAD your family into a train wouldn't be so bad, BUT it would be $240 roundtrip for a family of 4.....you can't have fun laughing with your family in your car (we played numerous memory and spoting games on road trips when I was a kid) or do you have to have a board game or video games to do it....you also say "if I could do it easily, effortlessly, and without stress."...the problem with taking the train is you have NO flexibility....you save 15 minutes and yet you have no car to transport your family to a new location, to go out and grab a bite to eat, to go shopping at the outlet malls...this is idotic.....now if they had numerous lines and numerous stops on each line so you could easily navigate a state or a city, then it makes sense...but this makes no sense what so ever...having a train take you between airports to save less than 30 minutes....why would I not just rent a car in Orlando and drive for convenience...I have to drag my luggage on and off the train and then to the rental car spot...this is nonsensical....once again, which politicians (or there family members)are going to make millions off of this deal....clearly someone is....

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Posted by ( Concerned_Taxpayer ) on 09/26/2009 at 09:13 am.

More crap from Choo Choo Charlie and his Orlando developer buddies; take $2.5 BILLION from the taxpayers to pad their pockets to accomplish much less transportation than what Amtrak and California does everyday in a similar rail corridor between San Diego and Los Angeles. For $29 per ROUND TRIP you can catch anyone one of 16 trains in each direction daily and make the 128 mile trip in less than 1 hour and 40 minutes, running at speeds up to 90 mph, hassle free. And guess what, Amtrak even stops at places in between to give their citizens the opportunity to ride, also. Amtrak offered to do the same thing for FDOT and Florida back in 2000 using existing CSX trackage but the bozos dumped the plan in favor of giving CSX nearly a $BILLION in corporate welfare to improve CSX's Florida freight profits but disguised it as Orlando commuter rail, SunRail. I sure hope the voters in my native Florida wise up soon! Corruption is a sin that should lead to a jail cell, not an entitlement that leads to more ill gotten public cash. So why not put the public's money to work rebuilding existing rail tracks, signals, and stations right thru the center of towns like Clearwater, Plant City, Lakeland, Auburndale, Haines City, Kissimmee, plus Tampa and Orlando, where they have always been, and do it for a few million rather than wasting $BILLIONS in the middle of an Interstate Highway, away from where the cities and their citizens want people to live, work and play? California may have other problems, but this time, on this topic, they are far ahead of Florida and our elected leaders, or are we just stuck with the worst government special interest money can buy, forever.

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Posted by ( jmk22 ) on 09/26/2009 at 10:34 am.

How can Tampa even think about a bullet train? They can't even get a decent bus line to run right. While it would be nice to take a train to Disney on the weekends with the kids and save my driving sanity, at $30 A PERSON ONE WAY, there is no way I could afford that! What kids of salaries do the people thinking up this nonsense nring in to even think that a $60 round trip to Orlando even makes sense? Instead of spending millions on a train that will never work right, Iorio and her friends need to buy plane tickets to real cities and check out what they are doing as far as mass tranist and duplicate. The wheel has already been invented and now Tampa just wants to give it a flat.

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Posted by ( cheluzal ) on 09/26/2009 at 05:31 pm.

$60 ride to save 30 minutes in some instance? Pass.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/25/251548/florida-leading-contender-high-speed-rail-funding/c_8/#comments

(http://www.jefflubchanskycpa.com/PRR7002STRSBGPA-AP20-2DG565.jpg)
State of the Art, American High Speed Rail.

QuoteI am claiming that the mix of tourist AND resident commuters is very beneficial for HSR. Being fixated on primarily resident commuters would be a mistake.

Fixated primarily on resident commuters? Faye, what Lakelander and I have been saying is WHAT RESIDENT COMMUTERS? Except for some apartments down at the end of SR436 near OIA, it would be quicker for anyone else in Orlando to just drive out toward the parks. There won't be a dozen commuter per train!

QuoteIf the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

This is misleading, the State of Florida is tossing us a bone with the FEC route. They have ZERO intentions of building a High Speed Link to Jacksonville in our lifetimes.

QuoteTurns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

Faye, this is where the fantasyland approach has done you, and a large group of local, state, and national, politicians a real disservice. State of the art doesn't mean "no diesel."  It COULD mean that, but it could also be any number of High Speed Diesels, Turbines, GenSets, Hybrids etc.. Because our HSR might or might not be diesel doesn't tell us a thing about state of the art, to find that, we'll need to look at the track construction plans.

This is what is frustrating in this thread, almost everyone posting here has a direct connection with railroads, or transportation planning or consulting, and we're all telling you the same thing, whoa! take it slow! Let's review this in detail before jumping off a cliff. None of this is personal, it's about Jacksonville, and Florida, and our passion. I suspect one of our on-line consultants is working for the project, but even he seems to be taking a critical look at these details. A "State of the Art Train" from nowhere to nowhere, is still a loser. 

Example: The real 7002, a Pennsylvania RR. 4-4-2 "Atlantic Type",  was the world steam speed record holder (127.1 MPH). This (unofficial but true according to Railroad Standard Time) record was set back in 1905.

Pretty darn "State of the Art."  

QuoteThe same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

QuoteYes tusfu1, but airplanes don't stop in Palatka, Deland, Sanford and Winter Park. Depending on how many "spokes" one wants to build, a hub and spokes rail system could get very expensive, with very little bang for the buck. When a single longitudinal passenger train can cover several mini-corridors in one pass, there is no reason to bust up the trip, thus adding, jobs, locomotives and needless other equipment and facilities. Example: DC to Chicago, ONE TRAIN, Washington-Cumberland, Cumberland-Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Cleveland-Toledo, Toledo-Chicago. How many changes would that equate to for a through passenger beyond any one of the hubs?

I don't disagree Ock...I'm just saying that sometimes a direct route is not feasible...and that a transfer point might make sense.

For example, there is no need to build a direct rail line that goes from Jax. to Sarasota....just have a line that goes through Tampa...that way someone who is coming from Orlando could travel through Lakeland to Tampa, then transfer to Sarasota

Note that when we shook of the cobwebs, tufsu1 and I agree on this point. If indeed the state ever does build high speed rail into Jacksonville (odds of about .00001%) then somewhere around Daytona-Melbourne would be the junction with the I-4 Mickey Route. This WOULD make a small HSR hub out of whichever place got the junction *I'll call SANFORD, anyone living long enough, remember you heard it here first. But adding the Southeast and Gulf Coast HSR projects 2 complete systems with 3 routes projected to Jax, plus the addition of Amtrak and Commuter Rail, nobody else in Florida will touch us as THE HUB. Anybody, intercity rail, Amtrak, franchise, connecting or otherwise, will pass through the 14 giant sandstone columns of Jacksonville Terminal, THAT is our future.

OCKLAWAHA

At $30 one way to save only 30 minutes of time, I really question the ridership numbers.  With that fare you've killed the already small percentage of every day commuters willing to use it.  As a tourist, with a family of four, there is no way I'd drop $240 roundtrip to save 30 minutes on a ride from Tampa to Orlando. 

If I were Amtrak, I'd immediately upgrade the Tampa to Orlando corridor, add a few more stops and compete head-to-head with this boondoggle.  My guess is that with fares 1/3 the price, they'll attract more tourist and local commuters.

lake ....that is about the best idea that I have seen to this point! Service is already in place and just needs to be enhanced  for  quite a bit less money (no matter who's money)Hub in Orlando makes no sense to me what  so ever...........Jacksonville is a better place for a Hub. The idea that once the Orlando boon doogle is completed then to Miami from there and to Jax from there is ludacris. Have said before.........Mouseville wants a railroad let them build it! Florida is not best served by a system in the middle of the state and expansions thought to move out in two directions from a middle? Not smart!

Naysayers!


The MCO / DT Tampa HSR project would be a SHOWCASE!

It doesn't need to be functional, successful, or cost effective.

Yeah.............but it looks real good right?......simply marvelous!

30 dollars one way I thought this HSR vs Amtrak upgrades was a serious debate but it is a joke. With this info most of the supporters should jump ship. I was just the person on the Amtrak side of the argument before and now well 30 dollars one way is a non starter.

$30 dollars to do what Amtrak can/could/and DOES DO for $10 dollars. Ten bucks is the Amtrak coach fare Orlando - Tampa, hey and you can leave from downtown and arrive in downtown.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock do you have a travel time on that Amtrak and what could it be upgraded to?

Wouldn't the Amtrak train have a dining car and a bar?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 29, 2009, 12:04:19 PM
$30 dollars to do what Amtrak can/could/and DOES DO for $10 dollars. Ten bucks is the Amtrak coach fare Orlando - Tampa, hey and you can leave from downtown and arrive in downtown.

Connectus says the fare would be $20, without the hassle of frequent stops.

Certainly doable for a family of four, if they won't need a car at destination.

For example when I visited Amsterdam in Jan., I decided not to rent a car, cause I didn't need a car for the week I was there.

I had to pay the equivalent of $30 for myself and three kids ( btw local students travel free), which is more than a one day car rental at $50 ( if you rent a car for a week), when I went to visit my parents who live 130 miles from Amsterdam. I was glad to pay the $120.

It was the convenience of being able to read a magazine, not polluting the environment, and not being stuck in traffic jams, that made it an easy decision.

And mind you, I always travel with my son Jason, who uses a wheelchair, and it was a breeze.

QuoteCertainly doable for a family of four, if they won't need a car at destination.

For the next few decades, that's a BIG IF.  A project this costly, should not have to rely on "ifs" that large to be successful.  $240 for a round trip ticket (family of four) to save 30 minutes of travel is no drop in the bucket.  Especially, if the fare to get to the same destination is $10/ticket on Amtrak.  If on vacation, the difference in time saved isn't as big as the difference in cost.

lake I agree! There are just too many "IF's" to suit me and nothing concrete or fixed in place!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 29, 2009, 12:04:19 PM
$30 dollars to do what Amtrak can/could/and DOES DO for $10 dollars. Ten bucks is the Amtrak coach fare Orlando - Tampa, hey and you can leave from downtown and arrive in downtown.  

OCKLAWAHA

sure...but Amtrak charges based on demand...some routes make $ while most lose $

The Philly to Baltimore route is about the same distance and it costs $30+ each way on the regular northeast corridor trains (the Acela line is even more)...difference being it is a relatively high quality service that is fairly quick.

So it sems to me that if Amtrak upgraded their service and people used it, the $10 fare would likely go up substantially.

It would still be hard to imagine them out pricing their perspective market with a fare in the same range as the competing HSR corridor.  What does Amtrak charge for a round trip from LA to San Diego?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2009, 05:37:35 PM
It would still be hard to imagine them out pricing their perspective market with a fare in the same range as the competing HSR corridor.  What does Amtrak charge for a round trip from LA to San Diego?

$29 dollars full fare not discounted. BUT, California has discounts for darn near anybody. tufsu1 intra-state fares have always been low in Florida, maybe it's the "vacationland" ?

OCKLAWAHA

I heard "Mouseville" will provide all visitors a coupon for a reduced rate to enter Mickey's! They did not say anything about a reduced fare rate for travel on HSR system!

That was a shoot from the hip responce guy's and not for real information! However I would not put it past the Mouse's pr people to do something like that!

Ok...now that Disney is on-board, maybe you can call it Mickey's train!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/orl-high-speed-disney-100209,0,3720794.story

(http://www.infrastructurist.com/wp-content/uploads/screenhunter_02-sep-25-1255-300x209.gif)

QuoteNow, this sounds almost perfect â€" so naturally there’s a problem. In this case, it’s that the train to Orlando doesn’t actually go to Orlando. It goes to the airport. Now, Orlando has a very busy airport so this proposed route would certainly be of interest to many Floridians and tourists. But this also means it’s a glorified airport shuttle rather than a real intercity rail link, of the sort that civilized people elsewhere in the would want and demand.

http://www.infrastructurist.com/2009/09/25/will-florida-be-americas-shining-example-that-21st-century-rail-can-work/

Lunican..........this has been my contention from the getgo! If Mickey wants to build a railroad then let them do it! HSR should not be just an airport feeder to Mickeyville! It should be a viable for real people moving system that is cost effective. Now if it is a private enterprise that is one thing but we are trying to use Federal Funds for something that is an area system and not statewide! This is a problem with me since my tax dollars are funding this projected system and I would really like to get the most for my money!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 02, 2009, 01:32:24 PM
Lunican..........this has been my contention from the getgo! If Mickey wants to build a railroad then let them do it! HSR should not be just an airport feeder to Mickeyville! It should be a viable for real people moving system that is cost effective. Now if it is a private enterprise that is one thing but we are trying to use Federal Funds for something that is an area system and not statewide! This is a problem with me since my tax dollars are funding this projected system and I would really like to get the most for my money!

Would you mind letting the readers know what industry you work for, so we may determine how you might be biased? BTW tourists are real people too, and taking them off our roads benefits us all.

Everyone knows my own background as an economist and educator.

Tourist are people, but what's not known is how many will be willing to spend an extra $20 - $30 one way/person to get to Tampa or Orlando 30 minutes faster.  Actually, you probably won't save any time because you'll spend thirty minutes in Orlando getting out of the airport and driving back to town. 

What also has not been answered if tourist would really care if it were high speed rail or a conventional intercity rail service serving this corridor.  This is big because to save 30 minutes you're willing to increase the burden on the taxpayer from a few hundred million to a couple of billion to provide this service.

I know as a tourist, I've never had a problem with a train in a city like DC, NYC, Dallas, Boston, Philly, etc. being set up to serve everyone (tourists and residents).  I can't imagine it being any different in Florida.

MOUSE!

OCKLAWAHA

Faye.........I was in the telecommunications industry until "voluntarily terminated"! That was the Company's label not mine (Took exception to being forced to drive for 24 hrs on my time to get to the Project work area which is in Ks/Mo, was supposed to be back working in Jacksonville when T Mobile started up again, they hired 3 people to replace me even though I did not get 3 person's salary) Been doing that for about 20 yrs..........I have a A&P card with an inspectors endorsement....pretty hot and heavy on corperate class aircraft with warbird experience on lots of WWII medium bombers and fighters. Have known about MJ for quite sometime but was more inclined to participate on the JOL Forum. Both have advantages.....transit issue's appeal to me from a cost point of view and the ability of transit systems to move large numbers of people around to me is a no brain er! We just don't have anything of any large size for use. Tourist or Resident matters not to me but to have the options does........we don't have anything period! Light rail would be a boon for downtown Jacksonville but other than an overpriced Skyway system...........nothing going on and not even on the horizon and that does bother me............lack of vision and planning on the part of the current Administration and past ones!

Thanks CS Foltz for the backgrounder. Nice to meet you here on Metrojacksonville, and thanks a bunch for getting involved!

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 29, 2009, 12:08:17 PM
Wouldn't the Amtrak train have a dining car and a bar?

Sorry I missed this question Jeffery. Amtrak trains don't automatically have a diner or lounge car, it does depend on the market, and always has. You wouldn't want a full diner running from Midnight to five am. In the days of the private railroads each hosting a fleet of trains, a passenger would often pick their train by equipment.  

OCKLAWAHA