High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[Ocklawaha]

Actually, Amtrak can tap into the HSR stimulus funds.  They are already running a HSR line in the form of the Northeast's Acela.  The government classifies HSR as going 90mph.  Under this definition, the Amtrak/FEC corridor would also be able to apply for HSR money.

That aside, assuming this line is constructed in the middle of I-4, would it be possible to use the same line for local commuting purposes?  Or is it high speed connections to Disney and OIA or bust?

By definition yes, but that was not the intended pupose of the federal HSR stimulus monies.

We should be able to use the same line for slower moving commuter purposes. In Europe they often have "stop trains" and "intercity" trains on the same tracks.

While I have not supported the Orlando - Tampa route for HSR, I WOULD support HSR with some logical, FRENCH TGV "think". It makes sense to use the current CSX, FEC, and NS, for most of our funding and planning.

What I would envision if FDOT or HSR wanted me to go back to work (this time for primitive gringos) is this:

JAX - Palatka - Deland - Sanford - Winter Park - Orlando, then the SAME train with the SAME equipment gets on the I-4 corridor and fly's  to TAMPA UNION STATION, which it can reach on the conventional railroad track. Thus EVERY Amtrak, or State High Speed train, would weave through the Cities on the current railroads, then exit for long stretches of VERY FAST. This is the general formula for France and other advanced HSR systems. With overpasses and fencing, the CSX line from Jacksonville to Orlando could easily obtain 90 mph, ditto the "S" line and FEC. I have even witnessed a CSX freight heading south along the track next to highway US17. Trying to pace the train near Deleon Springs, it pulled away from my car as I topped out at 80. 

Yesterday, I believe that there was a comment from TUFSU1 about the train taking 2 hours from Orlando to Tampa. If we would support a State Amtrak Florida system, those tracks could be upgraded. In fact Central Florida Commuter Rail would rebuild some long sections. In 1954 the trains on the same track, made the trip in 1 hour and 50 minutes.(Tampa sections of the "Vacationer", and
"Miamian."). The trains that did take 2 hours back then, stopped at Kissimmee, Haines City, Lakeland, Plant City etc.. Things have only slowed down over the last 55 years due to density and sprawl all along the route. Again fences, new signaling, track capacity improvements, and overpasses would go a long way, for a lot less then Mickeys HSR on I-4. 

OCKLAWAHA

[Lunican]

Here is an interesting article about North Carolina's plans.

State applies for high speed rail funding in Rowan County
September 1, 2009

Gov. Bev Perdue today announced that North Carolina has submitted the first of its high speed rail applications for funding under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA).

The list includes grade separating Klumac Road in Rowan County.
NCDOT filed six "project ready" applications totaling $92,612,936, requesting $75,950,546 in Federal Railroad Administration grants and pledging a total of $16,662,390 in matching funds. The merit-based funding will be awarded before the end of this year.

If funded, the projects will help retain or create an estimated 1,457 jobs for North Carolinians. The FRA requires the projects to be completed within two years of the grant award.

"These rail projects are critical for communities throughout our state," said Perdue. "Working with our partners in other states will improve the transportation system in North Carolina and in the Southeast."
The State Transportation Department worked with the North Carolina Railroad Company, Norfolk Southern Railway, CSX Transportation and Amtrak to complete the applications. The projects include rehabilitating locomotives and passenger equipment for new service, doubling the size of the Cary station, adding much needed parking in High Point, lengthening the boarding platform in Burlington.

In addition to safety improvement projects that add rail network capacity and improve service reliability, NCDOT also applied for funding to complete environmental studies and engineering necessary to consider service extensions to western and southeastern North Carolina.

The state is partnering with Virginia to request funds to complete final engineering for the development of a shorter Southeast High Speed Rail Corridor route with top speeds of 110 miles per hour, which would connect Raleigh with Richmond.

The two states also will partner to complete a corridor development plan connecting Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh, Richmond and Washington D.C., with frequent, reliable passenger trains that can travel at top speeds of 90 -110 mph.

The second round of applications for funding of a comprehensive corridor development plan is due to the FRA on Oct. 2.

ARRA will provide $8 billion in competitive funding for high speed rail corridors around the country.

http://www.salisburypost.com/Area/090109-high-speed-rail-funding

[CS Foltz]

Geez.....everyone and their brother are gonna leave us eating their dust! We are getting hung out to dry and FDOT is busy flapping lips and trying to increase the asphalt roadways!

[Ocklawaha]

Transportation Monster Prophecy Strikes Again:




The former SEABOARD AIR LINE "S" ROUTE in red... one of SAL'S old colors!

Some of you may recall in my many posts that I said I believe the Southeast Highspeed Rail Corridor would use the former SEABOARD AIR LINE MAIN, or "S" line, before they'd invest more $ in the current CSX route. Well the report of the NC governor, asking for the HSR funding is right on target... and guess where they want to build it?

Read it and weep...

The master planning elements make up a feasibility study that will assist the Department in its decisions on project implementation. This report summarizes the findings of these planning efforts for the corridor and provides recommendations for further action. Summaries of these planning elements are given below.


An engineering evaluation of the corridor was completed, which identifies the possible speeds, alignments and their costs. Due to the varied nature of the corridor, the evaluation was divided into two geographical sections. Between Charlotte and Raleigh, the evaluation determined that the existing North Carolina Railroad (NCRR) through Greensboro was the most cost effective route. Most of the upgrades to achieve two hour service from Charlotte to Raleigh can be completed within the existing right-of-way, thus minimizing potential land acquisition costs. Upgrading the track to 95 mph average speeds would cost between $371.4 million and $515.5 million, depending on the exact nature of the alignment, improvements, and cost arrangements. Between Raleigh and Richmond, the evaluation determined that rebuilding the old Seaboard Air Line main line (known as the S line) would be the most cost effective method to achieve 110 mph maximum service between these two state capitals. Reconstruction and upgrade of this route would be between $265 and $320 million, depending on the exact nature of the alignment, improvements and cost arrangements. For both of these segments, this translates to a cost of $2 million to $3 million per mile.

Train performance and train dispatch simulations of the routes were completed. These simulations modeled the speeds of various conventional and high speed train sets on the route to suggest which equipment would work best along the corridor. The analyses show that most likely equipment with tilt technology will be needed to reliably meet the goal of two-hour service between Charlotte and Raleigh; the alternative to meet this goal being to straighten additional curvature beyond that proposed by the engineering evaluation. Between Raleigh and Richmond, the improved high speed S line could be used to relieve some freight congestion on other major north-south rail lines. The modeling also illustrated potential freight and passenger train conflicts on the corridor. These preliminary results suggest that with the increased number of passenger trains, additional track capacity beyond that suggested by the engineering evaluations will be needed at various locations to avoid freight traffic delays along the corridor.

Station and station area standards for the proper planning and construction of high speed rail stations along the corridor were developed. The specific recommendations on site, location, parking etc. in the study will be used in the construction of new stations and the renovation of existing ones to high speed standards.

The environmental screening searched for potential environmental problems with the proposed alignments and other improvements along the Charlotte to Raleigh section of the corridor. The screening found no potential major impacts. The study recommends that a detailed environmental impact assessment be completed of the entire Charlotte to Washington corridor to determine all potential environmental issues and to recommend possible mitigation for any environmental impacts.

Demand modeling of potential passenger ridership and revenue from the high speed operations determined that increasing speeds by 50 percent along the corridor would increase ridership by over 300 percent and revenues by more than 600 percent over current levels. The model looked at various frequencies and fare structures. Most of the ridership and revenue, however, are from passengers starting or ending their trips at cities outside North Carolina. This suggests that the success of the corridor is highly dependent upon improved travel time to Richmond and points north. The modeling also illustrated that improved passenger rail service will reduce auto and air trips along the corridor as well as have a high level of induced travel (i.e., cause travel that otherwise would not have been undertaken).

The dotted lines are the abandoned portion of the "S" line...


Norlina, NC portion of the old "S" mainline.

Passenger trains along the old "S" North of Jacksonville? YEP, could happen! Through Yulee, past Busch, over the Trout River, past Evergreen, Springfield, Shand's, and into Jacksonville Terminal too? YEP, could happen! What about our commuter rail line North to Yulee? YEP, could happen! Government ownership of our port access lines?
YEP, could happen! A new through rail route from Jacksonville to the north? YEP, could happen! Anybody got any land in KINGSLAND? I wouldn't build that house too close to those old RR tracks. Hang on to your hats folks, this train is moving.


OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Geez.....everyone and their brother are gonna leave us eating their dust! We are getting hung out to dry and FDOT is busy flapping lips and trying to increase the asphalt roadways!

Please explain why this is the case?

[CS Foltz]

FDOT is more concerned about their primary gorilla....roads! Many many roads....must have more roads! From what I have noticed and seen rail is not on their agenda.....lip service but not substance. Judging from some of the overpasses and intersections that I have had to drive on , I am not sure I would want them involved in a rail plan..........in fact I think that should be a separate Agency who's only mission is rail both for tonnage and passangers.

[FayeforCure]

FDOT is more concerned about their primary gorilla....roads! Many many roads....must have more roads! From what I have noticed and seen rail is not on their agenda.....lip service but not substance. Judging from some of the overpasses and intersections that I have had to drive on , I am not sure I would want them involved in a rail plan..........in fact I think that should be a separate Agency who's only mission is rail both for tonnage and passangers.

CS Foltz, the separate Agnecy already exists, but it does not include freight trains, and rightly so:

MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is to advance the development of a Statewide High Speed Rail System in Florida in accordance with Article X Section 19 of the Florida Constitution and the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act.

Amendments to the Florida Constitution (pdf)
Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act (2002) (pdf)

As required by the Act, three appointments to the Authority are made by each the Governor, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate. The initial appointments for the Governor were for four years, the House Speaker for three years and the Senate President for two years. Subsequent appointments by each official are for four year terms.

MEMBERS
Lee Chira - Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
President, Lee Chira and Associates, based in Orlando

John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka

Leila Nodarse, P.E - Treasurer
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
President of Nodarse and Associates, an engineering firm specializing in environmental consulting, headquartered in Winter Park

Frederick Dudley
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Former member of the Florida Senate and now an attorney based in Tallahassee

E.H. "Bill" Pitman, P.E.
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Pitman Hartenstein and Associates, Jacksonville

Michael P. Harrell
(Appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Consultant with the Harrell Group

John Larkin
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Alliance Capital Management Group, Orlando

C.C. "Doc" Dockery
P.O. Box 2805
Lakeland, FL 33806
863-665-6252
(Re-appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Author of the Florida High Speed Rail Constitutional Amendment

Donald Crisp
(Appointed by Speaker of the House Allan Bense - 2005)
Vice-President at First American Title Insurance Company

Denver Stuttler - Ex-officio
Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation


FORMER AUTHORITY MEMBERS

Heidi Eddins (Appointed by Governor Bush - 2001)

William Dunn (Appointed by President of the Senate Thomas McKay - 2001)

Norman Mansour (Appointed by Speaker of the House Tom Feeney - 2001)

Jennifer Closshey (Appointed by the House Speaker Johnnie Byrd - 2003)

http://flbullettrain.com/fhsra/5_railauthority.html

[tufsu1]

FDOT stands for the Florida Dept. of Transportation....just like the USDOT they do everything....roads, transit, avaition, ports, freight, etc.

Now I would agree that many state DOT's are primarily highway-oriented....and Florida's hs been accused of the same thing (left over from the old days as the Roads Dept).....but again, the same can be said for USDOT....which many think is primarily just the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA).

As for the High Speed Rail Authority Faye....it is semi-separate from FDOT (just like the Turnpike Enterprise)....but don't be fooled, its just semantics.

[Ocklawaha]

Ticket to Gainesville? This is an RDC Car.

Great reply TUFSU1, I don't think any of us would want the HSR authority working with us on an RDC (Rail Diesel Car) shuttle down the branchline to Gainesville. We sure as hell don't want them laying out the track plan for our port. Florida does have a Rail Planning Office, under the FDOT, which is becoming more visible.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

As for the High Speed Rail Authority Faye....it is semi-separate from FDOT (just like the Turnpike Enterprise)....but don't be fooled, its just semantics.

Well, none of the members are past FDOT folks. What they are is STRONG High Speed Rail Supporters unlike most of the FDOT, which as you said is heavily into roads.

I very much like the separate High Speed Rail Authority. Would like to see more Democrats as members, but overall they seem very dedicated to High Speed Rail.

[CS Foltz]

Glad to hear there is a seperate Office regarding HSR and there needs to be. Any transportation agency needs to be specfic in its goals and objectives! I was under the impression that the FDOT umbrella was a blanket that covered all of transportation in Florida. It is time to start something moving in a positive direction!

[tufsu1]

Faye....the Authority Board is one thing...but as I've said, it is staffed by FDOT

BTW....FDOT answers to a board as well....the Florida Transportation Commission....maybe you want to check out their board make-up.

[tufsu1]

Interesting point on passenger rail vs. freight rail in California

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_13096956?nclick_check=1

[FayeforCure]

Faye....the Authority Board is one thing...but as I've said, it is staffed by FDOT

BTW....FDOT answers to a board as well....the Florida Transportation Commission....maybe you want to check out their board make-up.

I guess you and others did not see ( or did not want to see) what I posted including source, just a few posts up.

The HIGH Speed Rail Authority is NOT staffed by FDOT. Please reread me previous post and I will highlight in red the relevant portion in the repost below:

MISSION STATEMENT
The mission of the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is to advance the development of a Statewide High Speed Rail System in Florida in accordance with Article X Section 19 of the Florida Constitution and the Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act.

Amendments to the Florida Constitution (pdf)
Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act (2002) (pdf)

As required by the Act, three appointments to the Authority are made by each the Governor, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate. The initial appointments for the Governor were for four years, the House Speaker for three years and the Senate President for two years. Subsequent appointments by each official are for four year terms.

MEMBERS
Lee Chira - Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
President, Lee Chira and Associates, based in Orlando

John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka

Leila Nodarse, P.E - Treasurer
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
President of Nodarse and Associates, an engineering firm specializing in environmental consulting, headquartered in Winter Park

Frederick Dudley
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Former member of the Florida Senate and now an attorney based in Tallahassee

E.H. "Bill" Pitman, P.E.
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Pitman Hartenstein and Associates, Jacksonville

Michael P. Harrell
(Appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Consultant with the Harrell Group

John Larkin
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Alliance Capital Management Group, Orlando

C.C. "Doc" Dockery
P.O. Box 2805
Lakeland, FL 33806
863-665-6252
(Re-appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Author of the Florida High Speed Rail Constitutional Amendment

Donald Crisp
(Appointed by Speaker of the House Allan Bense - 2005)
Vice-President at First American Title Insurance Company

Denver Stuttler - Ex-officio
Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation


FORMER AUTHORITY MEMBERS

Heidi Eddins (Appointed by Governor Bush - 2001)

William Dunn (Appointed by President of the Senate Thomas McKay - 2001)

Norman Mansour (Appointed by Speaker of the House Tom Feeney - 2001)

Jennifer Closshey (Appointed by the House Speaker Johnnie Byrd - 2003)

Do you see that it is NOT staffed by FDOT?

[thelakelander]

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone with knowledge out there want to answer these questions regarding HSR down the middle of I-4?

I made this comment about the HSR plan in another thread yesterday.  However, the same questions still apply.  How does it serve the daily needs of Central Florida residents?  Can we do better with $3 billion?

I will say when it comes to the I-4 corridor, we should place more emphasis on where commuters live and where they typically travel to, as opposed to what corridors have the most grade separations or can be designed for the highest speeds from point A to point B.  This thing reminds me of JTA's first BRT North Corridor down I-95.  Sure it gets you from downtown to Gateway the quickest.  The problem is that no one lives on I-95 and their are no major destinations on I-95.  Does time really matter if you don't provide efficient access to where your populace wants and needs to go?

The same applies to the I-4 corridor.  Outside of tourist using this thing to get to the airports or Disney, its simply not set up for typical commuter uses because the actual cities outside of Tampa and Orlando aren't centered on I-4.  Nevertheless, this does not mean I'm ready to lead a protest against the tourist train.  If the Feds want to pay for it, so be it.  However, I'm just pointing out the obvious from the perspective of someone who spent +20 years living there.   As planners, designers and visionaries a lot of times we get caught up in the technical aspects of these projects.  Sometimes, its best to sit back and look at these issues from an end user's perspective or a pedestrian scale level. 

With that said, I can see how it will help a tourist get from OIA to Disney or I-Drive (assuming the mouse lets them have a station).  But now for the tough questions.  How much will the average fare be?  How does it serve rapidly growing bedroom communities like Plant City, Lakeland, Haines City and the Four Corners?  What can it do for the residents of Kissimmee or Tampa's booming suburbs of Brandon and Bloomingdale?  Is this train supposed to relieve traffic congestion on I-4?  If so, how can it be set up to remove local traffic these communities generate from the interstate on a day-to-day basis?

The other major problem I have with the fun train is costs.  I believe its best to crawl before you run.  In other words, maybe your first car should be a used one or fairly affordable instead of a lamborghini.  The opposition to rail in this state is obvious.  Dropping $3 billion on a HSR line that will not serve the daily needs of nearby residents is a huge risk to take for anyone who truly backs mass transit.  If this thing fails, we can flush the idea of rail investment in Florida down the drain because it will set us back for decades.  Don't believe so, then take a drive to downtown Jacksonville.  The skyway is the perfect example of trying to run before walking, falling flat on your face and then being to scared to leave the crib again.

Thanks in advance.