High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[FayeforCure]

I bet a regular Amtrak train down the FEC from Jax to Miami would arrive before a new high speed train from Jax to  Miami through Orlando. 

Of course, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

[tufsu1]

The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

[Lunican]

The key difference here is that the high speed rail route does not already exist. We are going out of our way to spend billions of dollars when we already have a faster route in place.

To use your airline analogy, it's like building an airport in Atlanta so you have a place to refuel your private plane halfway to DC. You could have just bought a a non stop ticket on a flight leaving tomorrow.

[Ocklawaha]

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

Yes tusfu1, but airplanes don't stop in Palatka, Deland, Sanford and Winter Park. Depending on how many "spokes" one wants to build, a hub and spokes rail system could get very expensive, with very little bang for the buck. When a single longitudinal passenger train can cover several mini-corridors in one pass, there is no reason to bust up the trip, thus adding, jobs, locomotives and needless other equipment and facilities. Example: DC to Chicago, ONE TRAIN, Washington-Cumberland, Cumberland-Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh-Cleveland, Cleveland-Toledo, Toledo-Chicago. How many changes would that equate to for a through passenger beyond any one of the hubs?

The coalition includes Broward Workshop, Florida Building Trades Council, AFL-CIO, Florida Audubon, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Central Florida Partnership, Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce, South Florida Business Alliance, Tampa Bay Partnership, and Tampa Downtown Partnership.

...and the Transportation Professionals in these groups are who? Don't believe the hype Faye, this is a bad plan, unless it is radically changed. HSR as a "EPOCT" show piece would just add another reason for a million or so people a year to go to crowd Orlando to play with Mickey. If I were in your shoes as a serious contender, I'd be searching for the numbers from DISNEY, of passengers arriving from OIA, which depend solely on Disney Bus Transportation. THERE is the key to your ridership. We'll kill off a few dozen 43 passenger motor coaches and replace them with a $2 Billion dollar train. Likewise, due to Orlandos very bad highway planning, and the lack of through routes, I think you would find the Commuter Train would blow the socks off the projections, be it standard CR or LRT.

CS, LRT is intrAcity, HSR is intercity, at least in theory.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I don't disagree Ock...I'm just saying that sometimes a direct route is not feasible...and that a transfer point might make sense.

For example, there is no need to build a direct rail line that goes from Jax. to Sarasota....just have a line that goes through Tampa...that way someone who is coming from Orlando could travel through Lakeland to Tampa, then transfer to Sarasota.

In the case of HSR, routes from Tampa-Miami would still travel through Orlando...and extending that up to Jax via I-4/I-95 might work too...but it would not make sense to build a dedicated HSR line that went from Daytona to Melbourne (the part of I-95 that won't be covered by the proposed lines)....or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

[Ocklawaha]

...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

I agree, it's really important to maximize ridership. That's why I can't understand the resistance to making rail in Florida user friendly to tourists. Tourists are used to rail travel, and are more likely to make heavy use of available rail.

Again: for every tourist we take off the road, we create relief for a resident commuter.

[tufsu1]

...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

please...you and I both know there are no plans for an HSR route from Orlando to Lake City!

[tufsu1]

btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

[Ocklawaha]

...or a direct route from Jax. to Tampa

While Jax to Tampa might not be a good route, consider that these High Speed Rail Bozo's plan to build a line from Orlando to LAKE CITY! (Missing Jacksonville, but I'm sure they'll toss Jacksonville another regular Amtrak train so you and I can pay the light bill...) Don't you just love Tallahassee?

OCKLAWAHA

please...you and I both know there are no plans for an HSR route from Orlando to Lake City!

Good Gosh tufsu1, you simply MUST learn how to smile! Damn, are you off your medication again?
But turns out you are right, they no longer plan to go from Orlando to Lake City, they've changed it to TAMPA to LAKE CITY!  Simply the pipe dreams of idiots and fools?





OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

btw...even Russia is getting high speed rail!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/business/global/25train.html?_r=2

Thanks tufsu1.

Turns out HSR and the central Florida commuter rail would cost about the same per mile, but we'd be getting new, state of the art equipment ( no diesel) and rail for our HSR courtesy of the federal government.

I see no downside to this at all.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.msg99787.html#msg99787

[tufsu1]

Ock...all they are doing with that map is saying that rail could go in the interestate median...which means I-75...and whether good or bad, Lake City isn't actually on the interstate :-)

[thelakelander]

According to Former Hillsborough Commissioner Ed Turanchik, if Obama chooses Florida, the project could be up and running by 2014. He said the construction of the project would create thousands of jobs at a time when Florida truly needs it.

He said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

You really believe an everyday commuter would be willing to pay around $20 one way every day to use this thing?  With the lack of stations, the only business commuters who would use this on a regular basis would either have to fly/in out of MCO or work in DT Tampa.  However, common sense (no studies needed here) would assume most going into DT Tampa would use TPA before MCO.  For those using I-4 for daily local trips between the end points, the train would be useless because the stops aren't set up for their use.  So now, we're really down to tourist as the primary user base, which you have already admitted.

If the fare is anything over $10 one way, I'd also question the overall attraction for a tourist.  Most tourist don't travel alone, especially to a place like Orlando and Disney.  For a family of four, even at $10/person that's $80 round trip and you'll still have to rent a car once you get to your destination (unless its only on Disney's grounds).  Even at that price, it would be cheaper to rent the car at the airport (assuming you flew into OIA instead of Sanford, Daytona, TIA, St. Pete/Clearwater or Sarasota, etc. or did not take Amtrak or Greyhound) and driving to your final destination.

The overall success of the plan is also highly reliant on the ability of local communities to fund their own citywide mass transit systems to connect with this system.  The way its going, this thing could be built and fall flat on its face before LRT and other forms of rail appear in Tampa, Pinellas County, Orlando or Lakeland.

Again, we're only talking about something that covers around 80 miles with only five stations in a growing region with over 7 million residents.  In the end, good idea (ex. connecting three adjacent growing metro areas with rail), bad solution (ex. cost..which leads to higher fares, ignoring potential everyday riders, etc.).

[thelakelander]

Ock...all they are doing with that map is saying that rail could go in the interestate median...which means I-75...and whether good or bad, Lake City isn't actually on the interstate :-)

Ock, I would not worry too much about that map.  If it ever happens to that extent, it won't be within our lifetimes.  My guess is once the Republicans are back in office, HSR's funding will cease to exist.  So what ever we end up with within the next 4 to 8 years is what we may be with for the long haul.

[thelakelander]

The same is true for airlines though...a direct flight from here to DC takes less than 2 hours...but I'm often forced to fly through ATL and then the total trip time is 4+ hours.

The hub-and-spoke system is done in order to reach the max. # of people and not fly empty planes...rail routes could be designed the same way, or just add/subtract cars as necessary.

I agree, it's really important to maximize ridership. That's why I can't understand the resistance to making rail in Florida user friendly to tourists. Tourists are used to rail travel, and are more likely to make heavy use of available rail.

Again: for every tourist we take off the road, we create relief for a resident commuter.

I guess this is the part I don't understand with your argument on this issue.  I agree, it's important to maximize ridership.  However, I don't agree that this plan, as drawn up, does that.  Instead, it ignores a significant portion of potential ridership.  It would be better if the plan accommodated both.