High-Speed Rail is the Tim Tebow of Florida Transportation

[thelakelander]

I'm just trying to understand what the decade old defeated Orlando LRT plan has to do with the current HSR plan.

With that said, I'd agree that being fixated on either option only would be a mistake.  Unfortunately, my fear is that the HSR plan is overly fixated on serving tourist at an astronomical cost that if it fails, it could wipe out other rail projects in the works.

[FayeforCure]

I'm just trying to understand what the decade old defeated Orlando LRT plan has to do with the current HSR plan.

Well, I keep hearing this tourist train description of HSR,........which is of course an exageration since we well know that resident commuters will also be served by HSR.

Ironically those who opposed the LRT in the 1999 4-3 vote against it, opposed it because they felt a better route existed I-drive to the airport rather than I-drive to DT. The I-drive to the airport would have had high tourist ridership, and higher overall ridership than the I-Drive to DT route.

Hoenstine, a general contractor, said he voted against the (light rail) train from downtown to International Drive because it wouldn't have had as many riders as one running from I-Drive to the airport.

Supporters understood that but said the feds had approved money only for the downtown route that would serve actual residents (vs. tourists).

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-scott-maxwell-where-now-091809,0,7796673.column

Then when the commuter rail talks were crowding out the LRT revival in 2001, that issue was corrected for LRT ( better tourist capture). Unfortunately, by then, commuter rail had pushed out LRT as a priority:

It's alive! Light rail heads for I-Drive.(Public transportation in Orlando)(Brief Article)
Orlando Business Journal|
May 18, 2001 |
KRUEGER, JILL |


New study outlines a path even previous opponents like.

ORLANDO -- It's back.

And it's heading for International Drive.

A light-rail system linked to the tourism corridor now is formally under consideration, less than two years after a similar proposal died a political death at the hands of Orange County commissioners.

An even bigger surprise: Despite light rail's past record, I-Drive business owners appear willing to reach consensus on a route.

"The recommendation to sit down with business leaders before the route is laid out is a very favorable direction," says Alan Villaverde, president of the Efficient Transportation Committee on International Drive and a critic of the first light-rail proposal.

Discussion of a southern leg to the rail system is unexpected. The most recent focus has been on studying a possible light rail. system running alongside Interstate 4 in north Orange County through Seminole County.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-10626220_ITM

[thelakelander]

Most everyday I-4 commuters will not be served by HSR (as currently drawn up).  There simply aren't enough stations in between the end points and the fares will most likely be too high for everyday use.

[buckethead]

So is the current HSR proposal a showcase gimmick or a useful and sustainable transit necessity?

Somwhere in the middle?

[thelakelander]

Imo, like the skyway, its a good idea gone bad. 

Its probably somewhere in the middle but more on the side of a showcase gimmick.  A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

[FayeforCure]

A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

Again, you are talking serving only our state's population, vs ridership that includes resident and tourist commuters.

Higher ridership is more sustainable,..........higher ridership should include tourists!

Crist endorses Florida HSR plans
September 16, 1:36 PM
Jacksonville Transportation Examiner

 
(Photo â€" Leo King
Neither Jacksonville nor Tampa may ever have stations as busy as St. Charles Station in Marseille, France, in 2005, but Floridians may see high-speed trains like SNCF’s TGVs mixing with commuter trains in terminal areas by 2014.2014 would be the target year for fast trains

“ConnectUs” said yesterday it won Gov. Charlie Crist’s support for federal stimulus funding requirement of $2.6 billion to develop the Tampa-Orlando-Miami High speed rail corridor as well as the Jacksonville-Miami intercity Amtrak plan.
The resolution was sponsored by Florida’s Chief Financial Officer, Alex Sink, and seconded by Atty. Gen. Bill McCollum.
Members of ConnectUs and its coalition of business, labor and environmental organizations testified before Crist and his cabinet.

The coalition includes Broward Workshop, Florida Building Trades Council, AFL-CIO, Florida Audubon, Greater Miami Chamber of Commerce, Central Florida Partnership, Greater Tampa Chamber of Commerce, South Florida Business Alliance, Tampa Bay Partnership, and Tampa Downtown Partnership.

Sink and McCollum are the leading Democratic and Republican candidates for Governor. Crist's term expires in 2010 and he is running for the U.S. Senate seat recently vacated by Mel Martinez.

Sink's and McCollum's support sends a strong message to President Obama that Florida's High Speed rail application will have the continued support of the likely next Florida governor, ConnectUs posted on its web site.

Crist is expected to sign a proclamation soon endorsing high speed rail for Florida. Appearing in Tampa on Friday, the Governor says he is all for it as long as it doesn't cost Florida any money. Money for the project comes from the Feds and the state doesn't even have to spend money to acquire land, because the median on I-4 has been left open for high speed rail from Tampa to Orlando.

ConnectUS President Ed Turanchik said High speed rail could connect Tampa and Orlando by 2014. President Obama is expected to make his a billion dollar decision by end of this year. The President has the final say on who gets stimulus money for high speed rail and Florida is making a case to get its share.

The Tampa to Orlando route would be the first part of the system.

Trains would travel more than 100 mph, and would start at the Old Morgan Street Jail in downtown Tampa. There would be stops in Lakeland, Walt Disney World and Orlando International Airport.

According to Former Hillsborough Commissioner Ed Turanchik, if Obama chooses Florida, the project could be up and running by 2014. He said the construction of the project would create thousands of jobs at a time when Florida truly needs it.

He said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

On August 25, ConnectUs, Inc. said it and its coalition of business, labor and environmental groups had sent letters of support and endorsement to USDOT Secretary LaHood in support of Florida’s application seeking $30 million for the Preliminary Engineering and NEPA Environmental studies for the Orlando-Miami corridor.

“This is the first demonstration of the advantages of working together,” said Turanchik. “We have organizations from around the state supporting the Florida Department of Transportation’s Orlando-Miami application. We all get the big picture and will continue to work together to see it happen.”

The Florida DOT split the Tampa-Orlando-Miami project into two separate applications in order to comply with federal funding criteria. The agency is expected to submit a “Tract 2” application on October 2 for $2.5 billion for the Orlando-Tampa corridor.

The Orlando-Miami study will look at two specific corridors. The first would run from Orlando International Airport along the Beach line to I-95 and would provide service to Cocoa Beach and Melbourne plus south Florida.

The second alignment would run from Orlando International Airport along the Florida turnpike to Fort Pierce and then to south Florida. Both alignment options would serve West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and the Miami Intermodal Center.

ConnectUs is a Florida not-for-profit corporation.
Useful website: http://www.fastrailconnectus.com

http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

[thelakelander]

A useful and sustainable transit necessity would be a system designed to serve a larger segment of the state's population at a much lower cost to the taxpayer.

Again, you are talking serving only our state's population, vs ridership that includes resident and tourist commuters.

Higher ridership is more sustainable,..........higher ridership should include tourists!

Again, I'm not talking about picking and choosing.  higher ridership should include appealing to both tourist and local commuters.  Unfortunately, what's proposed does not do this.  If it did, it would provide decent access to areas like Plant City, Brandon and Haines City in addition to Disney and the Green Swamp.

[buckethead]

Not to mention Ponte Vedra Beach. ..................


What the heck, pencil Jacksonville in as well.

[CS Foltz]

High ridership should be the goal no matter what or where a system is installed. But a Mouse feeder system does nothing but insure "tourists" get first priority and unless the cost of riding reflects that point then the local riders are in essence paying for the tourist to be able to ride. This will help out Disney World but what about the rest of the Floridians? We get to pay for the install with Federal Funds (that is our tax money by the way) so the idea of free money does not hold water! Any system should be geared towards "RIDERS" period. Light rail is one thing but a HSR system is another animal...........two different concepts but both a common point - moving people from one point to another! LR is an intercity people mover and HSR is city to city system!

[buckethead]

Since you're getting down to brass tacks, we should mention that the funds are money that is actually borrowed, to be repaid by our grandchildren who will in turn likely be asking thier great, great grandchildren to finance their public funding.

[thelakelander]

If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

[JeffreyS]

HSR is the family of six buying one Ferrari to get everyone to work, school, the Doctor, shopping and entertaining out of town guests instead of buying a mini van, a SUV, a sedan, and a truck then pocketing the extra 100k.

[buckethead]

HSR is the family of six buying one Ferrari to get everyone to work, school, the Doctor, shopping and entertaining out of town guests instead of buying a mini van, a SUV, a sedan, and a truck then pocketing the extra 100k.

Man!... When you put it like that, it doesn't sound like a really wise decision. 

[FayeforCure]

If this is the case, its best to get the most out of the money we're borrowing.  Is this the best we can do with $2.5 billion?

From a financial point of view, it's a heck of a lot better than the Central Florida Commuter Rail project you are emotionally tied to:

1. Cost of HSR project is $2.5 billion vs $1.2 billion for local Central Florida Commuter Rail project. The HSR Project will be funded 100% by federal monies. Cost per mile is similar, and what's more: Local and state taxpayers wouldn’t have to put up anything to get HSR going.
http://trains4america.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/florida-lawmakers-feet-to-the-fire-on-commuter-and-high-speed-rail/

2. SNCF expects 3.5 million trips between Tampa and Orlando in 2021, with ridership on the statewide system reaching 20 million a year by 2038.
Trains would connect Tampa with Orlando-area attractions in one-half hour and Tampa with Miami in two-and-a-half hours.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d21-SNCF-bids-on-TampaOrlando-highspeed-rail-three-other-regions-Midwest-is-biggest

Compare that to rather low ridership for the Central Florida Commuter Rail ( you can look up info on that yourself)

3. The predicted ridership will pay for operations. The Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.
http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jacksonville-Transportation-Examiner~y2009m9d16-Crist-endorses-Florida-HSR-plans

4. Given the above financial considerations, and the fact that Floridians don't want to pay for transit, the way they indirectly pay for roads and air travel, the most economically feasible project, is simply the best showcase.

Now, from an urban planning point of view, I can see your point lakelander. The Central Florida Commuter Rail will encourage dense development along the rail line. It has also been said that it's these development interests that have propelled the Central Florida commuter rail rather than actual projected ridership.

[Lunican]

He said the predicted ridership will pay for operations. He predicted the Tampa-Orlando fare will be less than $20 each way.

If the project is approved, after the Tampa to Orlando route, a route will go from Jacksonville to Orlando and another from Orlando to Miami.

I bet a regular Amtrak train down the FEC from Jax to Miami would arrive before a new high speed train from Jax to  Miami through Orlando. This is why the hub and spoke system for a passenger railroad is a bad idea.