Metro Jacksonville

Bus Shelter Advertising Debate headed to City Council

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/615388947_D54KV-M.jpg)

"With the economy as bad as it is, and a lack of public dollars to construct and maintain new shelters, this is a good time for the community to support a transit program that is completely paid for by the private sector. We talk a lot about public/private partnerships and here we have an opportunity to put one together that the community will directly benefit from without the use of tax dollars."

- Mike Miller, JTA Director of External Affairs

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-aug-bus-shelter-advertising-debate-headed-to-city-council

As long as they are classy like the Hooters ads on the city buses, I am fine.

big difference:

most of jax's bus stops aren't in large, urban areas like most of the one's shown in the pics. so they'll stand out much, much more.

I disagree.  These shelters are also located in areas of low density in and around these communities and they look fine and more attractive than anything we currently have here in town.  On top of this, their transit users are also protected from the elements, which enhances their system's overall usability.  I'll upload a few images later this afternoon of shelters in suburban areas.

I would be curious to know who is actually against this plan. What their exact reasons are and what they propose as an alternative.

QuoteThis effete hand wringing over the potential aesthetics in the face of overwhelming evidence that it can be and normally is done tastefully is just inane.

I agree with that 100%.

I enjoyed the "Bebe" ads on the bus shelters in Atlanta. Don't know what it has to do with anything to buy, but they were interesting. The Bebe I know gets senior discounts.

QuoteBenches are also designed to eliminate vagrants from using them for sleeping.

Funny you mention this.  On my way to work this morning, I saw a guy fast asleep in the bus shelter on Forsyth just east of Laura.  He had his own pillow and blanket and looked quite comfortable.

This seems like a home run. A little regulation on the advertisers and emulate some of the better designed shelters will be a nice upgrade to our transit system.

I am biased because I work in advertising, but I am all for this. It is paid for by the private sector, provides shelter for the bus users, and provides local advertising agencies with more work. Win, win, win.

On a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself.  It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine".  It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board.

^I agree 100%.

I think the biggest hurdle will be convincing jacksonville residents that the bus riding public is not second class citizens and they deserve a more attractive place to sit in 100 degree heat and be covered from the persistent rain showers.  if we are ever to overcome the traffic issues this city will continue to face in the future, we have to make mass transit a priority and make it attractive for people who can afford to own an automobile but, choose not to.

Born and raised in Brooklyn, NY. I have spent much time sitting at a bus shelter waiting on the B16 or B41 to come by. In this heat and with this rain, bus shelters are a must. And selling that ad space shouldn't be too hard.  The thing that I always think about is the lack of transfers. I would take the bus to work, but I would have to walk just too far to get to the initial bus stop. You can't only route buses on the major roads, they have to cut off for convenience for many people to want to use a bus system. And most areas in Jax don't have the typical square blocks which make bus routes much easier. I am all for it, but I don't ever see Jax having a major mass transit system that will work.

I say go for it! anything is better than the random scattered "benches" we have now. The ones along roosevelt are always in like a sand pit from what i see while driving.

(http://danstewart.building.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/snake-house-bus-stop.jpg)

I like the flavor of bold art with transportation...Just another way to get some pretty fantastic shelters built. Use the Universities, the art departments and grants from the National Endowment For The Arts.  

OCKLAWAHA

Good grief, Ock!  I'd be afraid to approach that thing up there!  Rather than art, what our bus shelters need are solar powered fans in them.  If they cut off the rain, then they cut off the breeze too.

(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2008/07/07/roundbusstop2_HMrLh_5784.jpg)
New Design, Slovakia

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 12, 2009, 03:18:38 PM
Good grief, Ock!  I'd be afraid to approach that thing up there!  Rather than art, what our bus shelters need are solar powered fans in them.  If they cut off the rain, then they cut off the breeze too.

(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/05/18/rural-bus-shelter_2_bQ9Fi_69.jpg)
New Rural Design, Northwest England

Yeah man! I know this one is radical to the max, it's just another way to get it funded...for free. Add other modern art, period art, deco era, Nouveau art etc... and we also get lots of attractions with the urban sculptures. Most international first tier cities are full of sidewalk art. We lag far behind and probably over 75% of our city doesn't even have sidewalks or streetlights. At least if the Martins ever attack us in the dead of night, we'll be ignored. I'm certain that flying they're saucer's down from Mars, they'll want to knock out only the larger appearing communities. You know, like Green Cove Springs, Lulu, Two Egg, etc.

BTW, I agree with the fan idea, I'm also in support of LIGHTER colors and a wall panel in front to keep people out of the pouring rain. Butterfly roofs rather then typical arched, flat, or other designer shapes. Bus pullout lanes, with handicap access to and from the shelter which will tie them to the nearest completed sidewalk or store entry's. So in the event that JTA sees this, here is a bus shelter needs assessment:  

(http://www.metropolismag.com/webimages/3542/Shiloh-Bus-Shelter-3_t346.jpg)
Asheville NC

Bus Pullout lanes
Pavement marking for bus stop
LED illuminated pavement reflectors, to warn other drivers of the bus movements and intentions.
Real time information scroll, limited to the larger and/or connection shelters. Another ad space. Countdown clock scroll.
Butterfly roof's whereever possible that could overhang above the bus.
Posted system map and route schedules.
Next Bus technology, just check your cell phone.
Solar power cells on the roof.
White or reflective light color on the roof.
Tinted glass or lexan panels
corner ventilation fans - Solar Powered
#311 bus/train/Skyway/streetcar/water taxi/Cab access
Single panel in front of shelter (entry on each side) to protect passengers from blowing rain
Paved pad that extends all the way to the street and connects with sidewalk or storefront
Attached matching trash receptacle.
Camera security tapes

(http://secretscotland.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/sptcam01.jpg)
Smile, your on Camera

(http://coolboom.net/en/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bus-shelter1.jpg)
Landshut, Germany

Anyone else? Jump on in!

(http://www.jaunted.com/files/4912/VA_bus_shelter.jpg)
OCK Purple? Mood lit bus shelters by Virgin America Airlines, San Francisco

OCKLAWAHA

I know Clay Yarborough is against sponsored bus shelters.  I could not convince him otherwise.  I am all for more creative bus shelters.

Does Clay have an alternative solution to fund mass transit improvements or does he just not care?

Come on Lake...why should a good religious man care about those less fortunate :-)

Quote from: fsu813 on August 12, 2009, 08:20:28 AM
big difference:

most of jax's bus stops aren't in large, urban areas like most of the one's shown in the pics. so they'll stand out much, much more.

Here are a few images of these bus shelters in the suburbs and parks.  Also, I add one of an existing bus shelter in Jacksonville.  Which one looks more appealing and maintained (Public or Private with ads)?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/618412840_F6Er3-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/618412950_cTz4C-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/618413114_NCAMj-M.jpg)

Back in Jacksonville

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/bus_shelters/springfield_diy.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/bus_shelters/busstops-008.jpg)

The shelters and benches shown in the top four images don't cost the taxpayer a thing.  We have to pay for what's shown in the last image....and we can't afford them!

All Clay Yarborough cares about is "protecting family values".  He forgets that not everyone is married with children and that this status quo in his head is not the future.

I don't remember if it's been said here, but I've heard that there won't be any advertising shelters in residential areas - just in commercial zones.  

Bill Brinton and John Crescembeni are the leading opposition to ad shelters - they were behind the referendum that got the sign restrictions written into the Charter.  They really do fear the "camels nose under the tent" (good phrase, stephen!).  I would guess that, despite the ruling in California, one or more billboard companies here would file suit as soon as the first ad shelter went up.  Legal fees - who pays?

I don't understand Clay's opposition, unless he's listening to Crescembini.

Is there no other municipality in the United States with a similar sign restriction that has faced this situation?

I can understand the "camel's nose under the tent" issue, but I would at least like these guys to present a viable alternative solution along with their opposition.  The status quo sucks and keeping it is a misjustice to the entire city and it's fiscal future.

Shelters, yes. Advertising, yes. COJ still hasn't figured out that if it wants public-private partnerships, the private part of it has to get something in return -- revenue or marketing value. The charity kick isn't reality.

Chuckled at the image of the shelter in Toronto with what looked like a Calvin Klein ad on it (dude bare but for underwear) -- I didn't see any of the pedestrian's around it going up in flames on their way to damnation for being exposed to it.

"On a somewhat related note, I just read in the latest issue of Planning magazine that the transit agency in Pheonix (Valley Metro) is looking into the possibility of selling naming rights to light-rail stations and, potentially, even the system itself.  It also mentions that in Cleveland, two hospitals agreed to pay $6.25 million over 20 years for the right to call one of the city's BRT lines the "HealthLine".  It seems to me that this sort of practice is becoming common all over the place and I think we should get on board."

This is also a great idea, and one that would work for Springfield's faux trolley line. Innovative thinking seems to have taken leave of Jax's govt and major corporations.

If the only thing that a person can come up with for being against bus shelters is "protecting family values" then they don't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure JTA already has a policy that states what's allowed in advertising on their buses and I'm sure the same will apply to the shelters. I have been in a lot of major cities and I've never seen advertising in a public space that somehow violated family values. I've seen Hooters ads on buses here and I've not heard any complaints. With giant billboards for Dick's Wings and Insurrection around town, what do they think is going to be advertised on these shelters, Hustler magazine.

 :D I just had to... :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel's_nose

QuoteCamel's nose
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The camel's nose is a metaphor for a situation where permitting some small undesirable situation will allow gradual and unavoidable worsening. A typical usage is this, from U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater in 1958:

This bill and the foregoing remarks of the majority remind me of an old Arabian proverb: "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow." If adopted, the legislation will mark the inception of aid, supervision, and ultimately control of education in this country by the federal authorities.[1]
According to Geoffrey Nunberg, the image entered the English language in the middle of the 19th century.[2] An early example is a fable printed in 1858 in which an Arab miller allows a camel to stick its nose into his bedroom, then other parts of its body, until the camel is entirely inside and refuses to leave.[3] Lydia Sigourney wrote another version, a widely reprinted poem for children, in which the camel enters a shop because the workman does not forbid it at any stage.[4]

The 1858 example above says, "The Arabs repeat a fable," and Sigourney says in a footnote, "To illustrate the danger of the first approach of evil habit, the Arabs have a proverb, "Beware of the camel's nose". However, Nunberg could not find an Arab source for the saying and suspected it was a Victorian invention.[2]

An early citation with a tent is "The camel in the Arabian tale begged and received permission to insert his nose into the desert tent."[5] By 1878, the expression was familiar enough that part of the story could be left unstated. "It is the humble petition of the camel, who only asks that he may put his nose into the traveler's tent. It is so pitiful, so modest, that we must needs relent and grant it."[6]

In a 1915 book of fables by Horace Scudder, the story, titled The Arab and His Camel, ends with the moral: "It is a wise rule to resist the beginnings of evil."[7]

There are a number of other metaphors and expressions which refer to small changes leading to chains of events with undesirable or unexpected consequences, differing in nuances.

Foot in the door - a persuasion technique
Slippery slope - an argument, sometimes fallacious
"The thin end of the wedge"'
Domino effect
For Want of a Nail (proverb) - the claim that large consequences may follow from inattention to small details
Boiling frog
"Give them an inch; they'll take a mile"[8] The original saying goes "Give them an inch, and they'll take an ell".
In Chinese culture, the "inch-mile" saying corresponds to the expression 得陇望蜀 (De Long Wang Shu), which is a quotation from the Book of Later Han about a Chinese general who took over Long (now Gansu) only to pursue further southwards into Shu (now Sichuan).[9]
For comparison, positive consequences may start from small acts, and there is a similar set of sayings like Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching:[citation needed] "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" (or "A journey of a thousand li begins with a single step").

Relating this sentiment in idiom to scientific observation, the notion that large-scale phenomena may be affected by tiny initial incidents is the essence of chaos theory. However, in all the examples above, the result of the tiny initial incident is supposed to be predictable, unlike in chaos theory.

How about we get some companies to sponsor these ... http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/san-fransiscos.php (http://dvice.com/archives/2009/06/san-fransiscos.php)



San Francisco's solar powered bus stops spread Wi-Fi all over
(http://dvice.com/assets_c/2009/06/SF-solar-bus-stop-wifi-thumb-550x442-18757.jpg)

QuoteWhy does a bus stop need to be solar powered, you ask? To power its LED lighting, intercom system and even a wireless router â€" at least, that's how it is with these swanky new bus stops being installed in San Fransisco. The stop you see up above is the first of the 1,100 wavy-topped, solar-powered bus stops the city wants to roll out by 2013.

For anyone who relies on public transportation, that dedicated, low power lighting sounds great during a late night commute. For everyone else, a city-wide blanket of Wi-Fi is just awesome. The stops also give whatever energy they don't use back to the grid, and are built using mostly recycled materials. Check out more of them in the gallery down below.

that would be the problem 5PointsGuy...the City won't allow outdoor advertising...which takes away the incentive for a company to sponsor and/or install the shelters 

Let our friends at the City Council upgrade our lives with BUS SHELTERS. Check out what San Francisco has cooked up for their advertiser paid shelters:

QuoteCatch the Wave
San Francisco debuts solar-powered bus shelter design

While many cities have been working to green their public transportation systems, rolling out hybrid buses, electric-vehicle fleets, and the like, San Francisco is one of the first to tackle that humdrum piece of transit street furniture: the bus shelter.

Mayor Gavin Newsom has cut the ribbon on the first of 1,200 new bus shelters the city plans to install over the next five years, and a third of them will be powered by solar arrays mounted on distinctive, wavelike canopies. The transparent, LED-lit unit, by local architecture firm Lundberg Design, was the winning entry in the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency’s design competition for the shelters, which drew 35 submissions.

Taking its cue from the shape of seismic shock waves, the canopy is made of recycled, 40 percent post-industrial polycarbonate, with a ribbon of solar cells running down its center. The photovoltaic (PV) material supplies power to a LED arrival-time display and to a push-button loudspeaker for visually impaired riders, with extra power being fed back into the grid. The architects were charged with designing a structure in three different sizes to suit a range of neighborhoods and inclines, so the 70 percent reclaimed steel frame uses a bolted assembly that references the city’s bridges and can expand from two panels to four. Convex bench seats shed debris and moisture, while also discouraging patrons from recliningâ€"perhaps while using the shelter’s handy, integrated WiFi.

.
As the remaining units are rolled out over the coming years, the city and project sponsor Clear Channelâ€"which is funding the fabrication of the new shelters in return for a share of the advertising revenue over the next 15 yearsâ€"expect them to become not only a symbol of San Francisco’s sustainable future, but also a model for public transit systems across the country. And at $25,000 to $30,000 each, they’re also a model of what the right sponsor can do for a city’s image.

Jennifer Krichels

Sometimes it's just better to try and compete with Middleburg, Yulee, Lulu and Two Egg... If we can't run with the big dogs, we should perhaps stay on the porch.

OCKLAWAHA

If solar power can power a bus stop in San Fran... I imagine they could power a whole city block in Jacksonville! :)

I would be much more happy with buss stops that do not impede traffic flow for cars! Most of the stops in my world have no pull off area for the passengers to enter or leave. To say this stops traffic flow is blunt and direct!The City could do much better. If they are planning to expand Bay Meadows, which they are at some point, I would bet money that has not been taken into consideration since the norm for the City appears to be a lack of vision....planning and economical use of our money!

Councilman Michael Corrigan: “I do not support Councilmember Jones’s Bus Shelter Bill. I further commit to help my fellow Councilmembers understand the potential broad damage of allowing advertising on bus shelters.”

Councilman Bill Bishop: “Please be assured that I will vote “NO” on legislation that would allow advertising on bus shelters. Please also note that I am a co-sponsor of Council Member Criscimbeni’s bill to explicity state that advertising be prohibited from bus shelters.”

http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=84

Unreal... no explanation... just... NO!

Having sign on locations the city deems appropriate with content they review and approve and zoning out many areas seems like an easy compromise.

No, no!  I want ads like the one's Ock posted above!

Why not let each district council person decide what goes in their district?  Why would constituents in the rest of the city care about bus stop shelters and advertising in the neighborhoods where people actually ride the bus?

Riverside should just opt out of it.  If they want bus shelters, they can raise the money for the structures in their district on their own.  No need to penalize the whole community.  As a matter of fact, maybe JTA should just not agree to put them in historic districts, thus eliminating Riverside/Avondale and Springfield from the discussion.

In Riverside, I'd personally like to see scantily clad women advertising for the Gold Club, Wackos or any of the "classy" showbars in Jax. Half-neked babes in Riverside would be a plus for me!

Bus Shelters could be designed to integrate within tasteful boundaries. JTA needs to think out of the box and then some.............I am more concerned with having bus's stop in the middle of the road to do their passenger thing and holding up traffic than I am with a covered stop for people waiting to ride the bus! That won't be corrected either! Are there more important things to concern ourselves with?

Let's see.  You are in the middle of a commercial district.  All around you are signs for the businesses and posters in their windows and on the light posts.  You're going to worry about a couple of signs on a bus shelter?   Givitabreak!

I just love it when some on the Council says "NO" and can not explain their position. I have not heard yet what Mr Meserve has to say about it...........looking forward to that I am!

It is fear mongering politics. They know a reasonable strategy exists area exemption, local approval or zoning ect. To give a reasonable response gets their voters to say ok good job but not very impressed or memorable.  However if said politician has saved their neighborhood from posters covering their area with a minority dressed as a stripper, smoking Newport's and drinking Courvoisier you just have to reelect that crusader.

I don't understand the problem............Design two models.....one for historic area, one for general public,use City Engineers to design,City workers to assemble and install..........end of problem! No advertising unless Districts give green light through voter referendum for their District! End of problem.......what is so flipping hard?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 24, 2009, 08:21:05 PM
I don't understand the problem............Design two models.....one for historic area, one for general public,use City Engineers to design,City workers to assemble and install..........end of problem! No advertising unless Districts give green light through voter referendum for their District! End of problem.......what is so flipping hard?

It's a little more complicated than that (isn't that always the case?).  The shelters would be installed for free by a private company (someone like a JCDecaux, Clear Channel, or Lamar).  They are the ones installing the shelters, not the city.

I get RAP's position.  I don't want this killed for the community, but in talking to some folks earlier this week, ther were rumors that the Historic Districts would be able to opt out of it.  If that is the case, then that's probably the best thing for RAP to do.

Remember, if they don't, and they put something non-historic looking in a street, it could cause a precedence issue (the bus shelters are there, so let's put ________ in on Post St.).  As the legislation is written, it is not really written with historic districts in mind.  My guess is that is a major reason why Corrigan is not for this.

Steve.....I understand, its always more complicated then it needs to be! Well uncomplicate it! Lets not only streamline the possible structures but simplefy the installing? I can see where advertising would give the COJ some return or JTA but we are talking about a simple shelter for protection from the elements. Johnny wants to spend 29 Million dollars on Metro Part for upgrades not needed so hold on that and use that money for shelters! Historical District should not have to opt out, they are part of the City also.......this reminds me of cell phone towers...........everyone wants service but don't want a tower in their back yard. Thats why they make fake tree's that are full service structures!

the shelters are JTA, not the City....and JTA doesn't have the money...so the only way they get done is to have a prvate company install them....and that company will want the ad revenue to offset the cost.

tusfs1, there was an article in the Folio that JTA is sitting on $72 million that is not earmarked for any use.  I don't agree but if they exist, Bill Bishop wants these funds to be used for shelters instead of working with private companies to pay, install and maintain them.  What's your take on this?

I had not heard about the $72 million, but it seems to me this would be better ued to start/finish some major projects around town....my list would include:

1. Streetcar Implementation
2. Commuter Rail Environmental Studies
3. Enhanced Bus Service (better headways)
4. JTB/I-95 Interchange

Bet you that OCK can come up with pictures of historic streetcar shelters that would fit right in to Riverside and Springfield with or without advertising.  OCK, are you there?

On the other hand, maybe the streetcars ran so frequently that you never had more than a ten minute wait for one and shelters were unnecessary.  When you have to wait thirty minutes or an hour, you need shelter and a place to sit.

I like the list tufsu1....Let's get started!!

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 25, 2009, 09:39:26 AM
I had not heard about the $72 million, but it seems to me this would be better ued to start/finish some major projects around town....my list would include:

1. Streetcar Implementation
2. Commuter Rail Environmental Studies
3. Enhanced Bus Service (better headways)
4. JTB/I-95 Interchange

Here's a link to another story about it: http://jaxpoliticsonline.com/2009/09/23/jta-the-mysterious-72-million-stash/

Quote from: Dog Walker on September 25, 2009, 10:14:36 AM
Bet you that OCK can come up with pictures of historic streetcar shelters that would fit right in to Riverside and Springfield with or without advertising.  OCK, are you there?

On the other hand, maybe the streetcars ran so frequently that you never had more than a ten minute wait for one and shelters were unnecessary.  When you have to wait thirty minutes or an hour, you need shelter and a place to sit.

Headways downtown were every 5 minutes, after the city complained that the waits for 8 minute streetcars was too much to bear.

Here's your classic streetcar stop, sort of looks like old Ortega - Riverside, doesn't it?

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ortega_car_stop_possibility.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 25, 2009, 10:45:47 AM
Headways downtown were every 5 minutes, after the city complained that the waits for 8 minute streetcars was too much to bear.

OCKLAWAHA

5 Minutes!!!!  Makes you want to weep with envy.

Administration back when they did have street cars and the like at least made use of what they had! Current Administration is only good for spending my tax dollars without peer! No vision........no plans.......no sense!

QuoteJTA inching towards transit shelters ads

Legislation has been introduced to the City Council that would amend the regulations concerning signage on public right of ways to allow advertising on the JTA’s shelters that serve bus and trolley riders. Thursday the Downtown Development Review Board of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission considered a recommendation that the ordinance be amended. The item was on the agenda because the DDRB is charged with acting as the City’s Planning Commission for matters that affect the area within the Downtown Overlay.

JEDC Deputy Executive Director Paul Crawford explained to the members before the discussion began that the legislation filed by several Council members that would allow the advertising required a finding by the DDRB and that a second recommendation would be filed by the Planning Commission that will address the rest of the county. He also said, “This is not something the JEDC has put forth. This is the JTA working with the City Council.”

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529156

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 25, 2009, 12:35:01 PM
Administration back when they did have street cars and the like at least made use of what they had! Current Administration is only good for spending my tax dollars without peer! No vision........no plans.......no sense!

Frankly a read of the newspapers pre-WWII is like reading the LA times or Chicago Tribune. One get the image of a polished booming city with industry to spare, and energy to become the next Sao Paolo.  Sad that somewhere right after the war, this town had a major brain fart and ceased to be progressive. It was in the armpit of the Great Frog, in the 1960's when the school system lost all state accreditation, Consolidation was a hail Mary pass to try and save something from the ashes.

Very interesting Lakelander. So JTA CAN work with the City Council for approval to get bus shelters with advertising on them, but can't work with them to tap the mystery money so we could enjoy the 5 BILLION dollar boom Phoenix is having around it's light rail.

My fear is that if we wait too long, the novelty of LRT might wear down to a point where "everybody's doing it" and thus the economic boom would be lower.  

OCKLAWAHA

Just about everybody is doing it.  If we hop on board, we'll benefit also.  My fear is that we'll miss the financing boat if we can't make a true commitment while Obama is still in office.

lake  and Ock...........both of you hit the nail on the head! A day late and a dollar short is the direction we are going. If we can not convince someone in the inner circle rail, in any shape or form, is a plus for any City then we are wasting effort! I don't care who or what takes the lead but someone needs to step and get things going! We can discuss this till the cows come home but somewhere sometime someone needs to take charge and get it done! I hope it's soon!

Did anyone catch this in today's Daily Record?  The signage looks great, however, it seems like they're getting ahead of themselves if the shelters are on the way too.   :-\

(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/articles/10_27_09/3a.jpg)

QuoteNew JTA bus signs, like this one on Newnan Street across from the Yates Building, have started popping up at stations Downtown. They provide the same schedule and route information as the old ones, but are taller and more colorful than the former white sheet-metal variety.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=529423

Everyone seems to have forgotten about the $73 Million Dollars that JTA just happen to find in someones desk or unused bank account............my point is why are we waiting till we get an "Advertiser" to fund bus stop shelters? JTA has the money on hand and if they don't have shelters in stock stored somewhere, then someone is not doing their job! The advertising verbage pertains to commercial advertising in conjunction with more shelters...........I mean we can spend $600k+ on a new bus that will most always not be full to its 60 + person capacity and you mean to tell me that JTA has no prefabbed shelters available? How many new bus's were bought?......this is a case for prioritizing and JTA is not doing their job......one bus could have paid for several shelters....if they were on a average of $2200 per shelter and labor cost to assemble was $300.....that's more than one shelter for sure is it not?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 25, 2009, 07:29:32 PM

So JTA CAN work with the City Council for approval to get bus shelters with advertising on them, but can't work with them to tap the mystery money so we could enjoy the 5 BILLION dollar boom Phoenix is having around it's light rail.

JTA didn't "work" with the City Council for approval of bus shelters, they out and out MISLED them with misinformation.  Don't worry, give them some time, and they will have some cooked books out of the oven soon for the next item on their want list.  We'll see how that "works" with the City Council.

stjr I agree! JTA has not been forthcoming with their numbers by any stretch of the imagination! I am looking forward to the first "Law Suit" so when it hits the fans.......I want to be standing behind a Council member for cover! The so-called Mayor has given this his stamp of approval which means .....won't be long before it hits the proverbial fan!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 27, 2009, 08:02:19 PM
if they were on a average of $2200 per shelter and labor cost to assemble was $300.....that's more than one shelter for sure is it not?

one big problem...each shelter is more like $6,000 and often costs about the same to install (given that concrete pads have to be poured)...and remember, these are real basic shelters...;larger, nicer ones can cost $25,000 or more.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 27, 2009, 08:49:01 PM
one big problem...each shelter is more like $6,000 and often costs about the same to install (given that concrete pads have to be poured)...and remember, these are real basic shelters...;larger, nicer ones can cost $25,000 or more.

Tufsu, just checking.  You aren't getting your numbers from JTA are you?   ;)

According to Mike Miller, the Springfield shelters cost $40,000 a piece.

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 27, 2009, 08:02:19 PM
Everyone seems to have forgotten about the $73 Million Dollars that JTA just happen to find in someones desk or unused bank account............my point is why are we waiting till we get an "Advertiser" to fund bus stop shelters? JTA has the money on hand and if they don't have shelters in stock stored somewhere, then someone is not doing their job!

Imo, if JTA has $73 million in cash laying around, that money should go towards transit improvements that the private sector is not immediately willing to finance.  In other words, I'd go with advertising on shelters and shift the entire $73 million to getting something like a streetcar system out of the ground.

Quote from: blizz01 on October 27, 2009, 06:56:20 PM
Did anyone catch this in today's Daily Record?  The signage looks great, however, it seems like they're getting ahead of themselves if the shelters are on the way too.   :-\

You have a point.  The signs are nice but this something that could be worked into the design of the new shelters and paid with by private money.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2009, 10:03:11 PM
According to Mike Miller, the Springfield shelters cost $40,000 a piece.

If that's true, I doubt even the advertising will pay for such a shelter.  Expect to hear that any ad company will limit the value of a shelter they will pay for.  It will be interesting to see what that number is and what type of shelter you can buy for it.  Jax isn't exactly New York when it comes to bus shelter sign views  8) So how much is each sign worth to an advertiser?  I expect a decent probability of JTA disappointing and/or looking foolish when all the details come out on this.  I noticed they didn't publicize in the press any examples of shelters to be funded or the amount of proceeds per shelter they expect to get.

Quote

Quote from: blizz01 on October 27, 2009, 06:56:20 PM
Did anyone catch this in today's Daily Record?  The signage looks great, however, it seems like they're getting ahead of themselves if the shelters are on the way too.   :-\

You have a point.  The signs are nice but this something that could be worked into the design of the new shelters and paid with by private money.

Another example of JTA incompetence.  Yes, the signs look great but knowing the shelters are to be upgraded and expanded, you would think, after all these years, they could have waited just a little longer for the signs to be attached to all those new shelters.  I bet these signs cost at least $1,000 to $2,000 each, installed.  How about it Tufsu?  I thought money was tight at JTA.

40K for a Historical District shelter seems abit much and 6K for a standardized shelter also seems a bit much, concrete not withstanding! I doubt if there is any heavy rebar in the slab and most of the structure should be aluminum which would mean self drilling,self tapping hardware. Some caulk to seal roof sections and poof! Shelter should not cost $6k per shelter even in todays materials cost market! Standardizing would lower cost even more, but that's just my take!

The easiest way to find out the cost of a shelter and maintainence is to call one of the companies in the business.  Try contacting JCDecaux North America: http://www.jcdecauxna.com/pages/Default.aspx

Another few sites for research

http://www.sheltersdirect.com/transitShelters.php

http://www.handi-hut.com/?gclid=CKqNrvDY350CFQRM5QodPlGrPA

Hay guys....thanks for the links.....gonna start cking now! Numbers just don't make sense to me based on what I've seen! Something on 4 posts with a roof, made of aluminum is about as cheap as you could do it! Wood might be cheaper but not sure......will look into it and go from there!

JTA says it will put the brakes on bus shelters with ads

QuoteBus shelters with advertisements may not be coming to Jacksonville after all.

Earlier this month, the City Council amended its sign law to allow the Jacksonville Transportation Authority to build bus shelters with advertisements. JTA wanted to hire a private sign company to build and maintain shelters in the city.

The amendment was strongly opposed by people who pushed for a stronger sign law in the 1980s. At Thursday’s board meeting, chairwoman Ava Parker announced that JTA would delay moving forward with hiring a sign company until at least January. JTA will meet with opponents of the amending the sign law and ask them to suggest ways that bus shelters can be built and maintained without the assistance of a private sign company.

Parker said JTA was still committed to constructing more bus shelters.

But the negative reaction made the board decide to step back and work with people who thought it was a bad idea, Parker said.

“We’ve studied this issue and believe we came up with the best solution,” she said. “But it’s possible there are better ideas out there and we want to hear what they are.”

http://jacksonville.com/news/2009-10-29/story/jta_says_it_will_put_the_brakes_on_bus_shelters_with_ads

???  Only in Jacksonville.  Who wants to place bets that nothing happens at all and the system remains dysfunctional?

Quote from: blizz01 on October 29, 2009, 04:11:09 PM
JTA says it will put the brakes on bus shelters with ads

Quote from: stjr on October 27, 2009, 10:55:12 PM
...I doubt even the advertising will pay for such a shelter.  Expect to hear that any ad company will limit the value of a shelter they will pay for.  It will be interesting to see what that number is and what type of shelter you can buy for it.  Jax isn't exactly New York when it comes to bus shelter sign views  8) So how much is each sign worth to an advertiser?  I expect a decent probability of JTA disappointing and/or looking foolish when all the details come out on this.  I noticed they didn't publicize in the press any examples of shelters to be funded or the amount of proceeds per shelter they expect to get.

Did I tell ya' so?  I will give JTA kudo's for being big enough to back down and admit a problem.  Best thing they have done in a while.

When you consider the opposition, the mistated bus shelter data, the advice of the real legal experts on billboards, the economic feasibility of ads funding what was promised and/or needed, etc., I think this is the only action JTA should take presently.

I will remind you that JTA may be able to fund the shelters in other ways, not the least of which is taking the funds used to operate the useless $ky-high-way and apply them toward assisting thousands more bus riders and maybe even adding a few with the added amenities.  Now, that would be a major win-win for everyone!

Failing that, I have already pointed out ways other communities have found to fund shelters.  Stimulus dollars, corporate underwriting, downtown development agencies, community groups, redirected funds from lesser priorities, etc.  Being creative, I am sure we can do the same.

You think any council members who put themselves out there for the JTA might now hesitate to do so again?

Quote from: JeffreyS on October 29, 2009, 06:53:53 PM
You think any council members who put themselves out there for the JTA might now hesitate to do so again?

Maybe.  They need to be independent thinkers, not rubber stampers or special interest advocates.  If this teaches them that lesson, we, as a community, will be better for it.  Same with any other "errors in our ways" such as Jack Webb's missteps.

Part of atoning for mistakes is that we admit to them and learn to do better next time.  That's why knowing our past is so critical to insuring our future!

Quote from: thelakelander on October 29, 2009, 04:24:33 PM
???  Only in Jacksonville.  Who wants to place bets that nothing happens at all and the system remains dysfunctional?

Hells Bells Lake, these things come in more shapes and designs then a Disney Fantasy movie... From cool little mushrooms, to giant heated/AC size micro-stations. You simply choose the product that fits the market and location... Damn, this stuff isn't that hard people.

OCKLAWAHA

Only in Jax, lol.  I'll be looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

I wonder how much the study cost that determined the ads were the best way to go.

I feel like our fit about getting transit has totally had it's ass kicked by the people who do not want the shelters fit.

To HELL WITH STUDIES, have ideas and make executive decisions, that's what they pay me for in Colombia! You STUDY in school, in class, or on-the-job, in the field you follow CCTT's motto. (CCTT=Transport and Technology Corporation of Colombia) 

"ACT, Inertia Doesn't Move/Change"

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/elespectador/files/images/mar2009/860b65971d1e6f9a1eb333d3fc943a5b.jpg)
This stuff just ISN'T THAT HARD! Your right Lake, ONLY IN JACKSONVILLE! y Pasto!

OCKLAWAHA

Gentlemen...........I concur! JTA is back pedaling big time and the bozo's did not even have a Plan B either!  When in doubt have a study done seems to be the way most of the City's Agencies operate and I just can not understand it! No one has returned my E Mail request to the 3 Companies you guys provided the links for yet and when they do I will post that info. Somehow I think $12K per shelter is an inflated figure and I am trying to find out just where. One of the principals of manufacturing is standardization both in materials and design which allows a cost effective product to any customer and I am still scratching my head as to why a simple shelter would cost so much.................it doesn't make sense!

I'm not sure they are getting off this idea yet...just taking a pause to let things cool down a bit....I still expect to see the board give JTA staff the go-ahead and this to be pursued sometime next year.

Either way, at least they now have the ability to do this at some point in the future if they so choose.

God forbid we act like a big city and have advertisements on bus shelters. How frustrating!

Gentlemen............I could care less about "Advertisements" that I would not read while traveling on the roads! I have yet to see anything that substantiates advertising on either bus's or shelters so any company that participates maybe expecting lots of traffic from advertising but I say - It ain't so Joe! Any so-called numbers can be juggled or presented in the best light strictly depending on how the question is asked! Some of us question  any information presented by a poll or a survey and I understand why............because I do too!

But JTA is always so precise and accurate in it's reported numbers and projections!  (That's sarcasm, folks!)

I disagree with RAP's stance against ad-supported bus shelters.  As part of their objective to promote less dependence on automobiles, improved and upgraded bus shelters would support this goal.

The ads won't be flashing neon (Times Square) nor of soft porn.  Advertising abounds in the historic district so why not jump on the opportunity to fund bus shelters since there are so many bus stops in the area?

QuoteLet’s have a little sympathy for those who ride the buses

By Phil FretzStory updated at 7:57 AM on Monday, Nov. 9, 2009

Here we go again …

For four long years, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority sought City Council permission to finance construction and maintenance of bus shelters by selling advertising on them.

And, for as many years, opponents lobbied against it, saying they wanted time to explore other financing options.

Finally, the council gave its approval. And, two weeks later, the opponents were back.
They wanted time to explore other financing options.

Wouldn’t you just know it?

Let’s see. The city has about 3,500 bus stop sites and, according to the JTA, only 340 have roofs.

And, as we all know, it rains quite a bit here in Florida.

It costs $4,000 or more to build a shelter and $1,200 a year to maintain it, the JTA says.

Where is JTA going to get the money without selling ads, cutting needed road work or scaling back bus service?

If the opponents finally have a workable idea, let’s hear it.

But have a sense of urgency. That elusive pot of money, if they can find it, must be big enough to get the job done â€" and it has to come in what JTA spokesman Mike Miller calls a “sustainable stream.”

That means enough money must pour in, automatically, to build and maintain 50 shelters every year for 20 years.

That rules out applications for federal grants or stimulus money. It rules out annual appropriations from the City Council.

And it certainly rules out “hope and a prayer” projects like asking for donations.

Miller says the JTA will forge ahead with the advertising project as soon as all the necessary paperwork is completed, in about 90 days, unless opponents come up with a really viable alternative before then.

Don’t hold your breath.

Bus riders are getting wet. They’re catching colds. Some are getting sick.

No more stalling. Get the job done.

If the “visual clutter” ruins someone’s carefully crafted sense of ambience, so be it. Maybe poor people won’t have to spend so much money on cold medication.

Less ambience for better health.

That sounds like a pretty good trade-off, to me.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/phil_fretz/2009-11-09/story/let%E2%80%99s_have_a_little_sympathy_for_those_who_ride_the_b

It would seem to me that JTA has taken the easy way out...........no money equals no shelters! However we seem to find the money we need for new bus's! If one bus was delayed in procurement that would be $600k available for new shelters and maintenance, even though I have never seen a shelter being maintained or cleaned by anyone! This makes me believe that possibly that is just one more waste of our tax dollars given to someone somewhere  for doing nothing! What is the criteria to get a shelter and who makes that decision based upon what information............does anyone know?

Money for new buses comes from capital outlays from FTA and FDOT....bus shelters can not be funded this way

Maybe JTA should contract w/ this guy

http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/decomposed-school-buses-resurrected-for-bus-shelter/

I like it.

I don't believe that JTA has ever requested bids .......atleast not from an advertisement in the TU! Infact City Hall likes that tactic.....they don't use the TU all the time, they have a habit of using the Legal Gazette or whatever the hell the Lawyers Weekly is called!

Requested bids for what?  I would imagine the TU has a set ad rate, and if JTA wants to reach those readers, the get to pay the TU rate.  I also imagine that if they (or any advertiser) buys a lot of space, they get a discount.

Oh, wait, are you saying JTA does not bid out the things they buy?  I think, as a condition of the Federal funds they get, they have to bid.  You are probably right, that most of the ads aren't in the TU - not a whole lot of bus builders who read the TU.

Well, we can rehash this whole debate again or people can go back and read this and the other 2 or 3 threads already existing on this subject.

JTA has the money, they just chose to spend it otherwise.  Look at their benefits/pensions of 50% of payroll and the subsidy of $20,000 per rider per year (total of about $14 million) they waste on the $ky-high-way.  They manage to find all the money they need for these things without yelling and screaming.

And, if they can get Fed funds for buses and roads, they probably could scrounge some up for shelters. After all, that's part of running a viable bus system.  I bet the Feds paid for the $ky-high-way stations, not just the track, because one is needed to support the other.  Likewise, with shelters.  But, you know, you don't get if you don't ask.

As to advertising dollars being predictable revenue streams, go ask newspapers, TV, radio, and sport promoters how reliable advertising dollars are today.  Sorry, there are no guarantees in life.

By the way, I have yet to see an article quoting JTA about exactly what kind of revenue bus shelter ads will provide to accomplish their goals.  It would appear it would take at least $150 to $200 or more dollars per MONTH per SHELTER to cover maintenance, depreciation, financing, and administration using $1,200 maintenance per year per shelter and $4,000+ per new shelter.  And, that's an "el cheapo" shelter.  (JTA has said better ones can cost north of $12,000.  What are we looking for?).  So, as an advertiser, are you willing to pay that rate or better for a shelter on the corner of Moncrief that mainly is seen by the same few dozen bus riders at a given stop all year long?  Or, likely, even less riders at a stop on San Jose in Mandarin? What's the ad market like for that?

stjr you have stumbled on something that I have asked about several times! tufsu1 seems to have all of the answers but he has yet to come out with that one.......what I had asked was simple - How much revenue does the advertising generate from the bus emblazoned ads and the shelters? How much of the public responds to both advertising venues, I mean who has called on a business due to the add they saw on a bus? Somehow both ,from what I see, only generate income for the "Advertising Company" who charge more for the service than what that form of advertising brings in customerwise! The only person making out in that situation is Clear Channel or Lamar or whoever is in the Advertising game.......and it is just one more shell game for sure! JTA could and should come up with the money for more shelters, it should not be "Riders taking up a collection" in order to have some protection from the elements............no shelters equals no riders.....which is better?

CS....ad companies don't charge JTA to put stuff on buses....they pay JTA...So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA

And this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2009, 08:03:25 AM
..So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA

Tufsu, you must not have run a business.  Businesses want results for their money.  They aren't going to buy these ads if they can spend the money elsewhere with far better results.  You and JTA are not answering the questions asked.  How does the revenue brought in from ads match up with the expenses of building and maintaining the shelters?  For all we know, this could just be a JTA pipe dream.  "Show us the money!"

QuoteAnd this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.

If it was a perfect example of public/private, we wouldn't have the level of opposition we are seeing.  It's only "perfect" in the minds of certain beholders such as yourself.

As to alternative funding, again you and others are dancing around the obvious sources I highlighted above.

Further, all the funding sources available for mass transit system  should also cover bus shelters.  Why?  Because bus shelters should be viewed as an integral component of a bus transit system, just like railroad stations, terminals, the $ky-high-way stations, etc.  It's just plain stupid, a red herring, and maybe discriminatory, that bus shelters are treated differently than other transit infrastructure.

JTA isn't shooting straight with us.  Starting with the fallacious bus stop and maintenance numbers and relying on an attorney with a conflict of interest to disregard outside experts about billboard issues.  And, continuing on with the above.  The number of gullible and unquestioning public officials we have is why Jax can't ever dig out of some of these holes.

tufsu1 .....whether or not someone pays JTA to put their ad's on any bus is immaterial! Of course JTA will take their money ....it's free money for JTA!! Which does not answer my question of "How much money does JTA receive for letting anyone place an Ad for anything on a bus that we own?" Also like stjr has stated, bus shelters should be an integral part of a bus transportation system.........so why must that be an additional charge or separate funding? Now you want a revenue source to pay for shelters and the maintenance there off.........how about charging the riders double what they are charged now.....One dollar to ride and One dollar to pay for a bus stop? I mean there is no such thing as a free ride for anyone even though COJ does subsidize JTA right? I mean I seem to remember something about the Budget for JTA being passed without review or discussion and that was the operating budget that they asked for right? How come there was no money for shelters in the Budget? New bus's yeah.......new roads oh yeah but shelters..............these people are professionals huh? Makes me wonder just how many AIMO's are running that organization.

1. JTA's budget does include money for shelters....but only enough for 10-20 per year

2. JTA, as currently constructed, primarily serves those people who have few other transprtation options...I'm thinking an increase to $2 per trip might put quite a burden for those on fixed incomes.

Maybe we should hire you to run JTA...it sounds like you'd be willing to do it for around $50,000....that would save some money for shelters.

Bus shelters paid for by the advertising are a win-win-lose (win for bus riders, win for advertisers and lose for people offended by advertising). 2 outta 3 aint bad.

You did ask for a revenue source right? Mayor Johnny has no qualm about "Feeing" the public  in an effort to balance the books.............why did you not question that? To me there is no difference between the two situations........JTA's Budget was passed without comment or discussion..........if there are, as you say, 10 to 20 shelters per year then they have the money for that many.......which by the way I have to ask......where are those shelters being built? I have never  seen any new ones going in any where and I used to travel quite abit all around town due to the work I did at that time. I was forcibly retired and would not consider running JTA since $50K a year is too much for an Agency which appears lost and has no plan. I mean bus's, with no shelters and having Ad's to pay for the shelters.......you still did not say anything about "How much money does the Advertising bring to JTA for free"? You sure your not a politician.....skirting around a direct question shows me you have talent.......planning on running for Mayor?

16 year old girls

Plan to build bus shelters with advertising in Jacksonville moves forward

Despite a previous pledge to consult with critics of their plan beforehand, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is getting ready to move forward on its own with a plan to build bus shelters with commercial advertisements.

In October, the City Council amended its sign law to allow JTA to build bus shelters with advertisements. Several vocal opponents objected, worried that the legislation would allow sign companies to challenge the validity of the entire city sign law.

JTA and the city's general counsel's office said that wouldn't happen, and JTA agreed to meet with critics and hold off on hiring a sign company that would build and maintain shelters.

Now JTA's critics say it hasn't really engaged them and question how sincere it is about finding common ground.

City Councilman John Crescimbeni, who opposed amending the sign law, said he has not heard from JTA for months, even though he has tried to schedule meetings.

"I should have realized when JTA said they'd talk to us it was all just lip service," he said.

JTA says the discussion on advertising can continue but it must move forward.

"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."

Blaylock said JTA's board will be asked to approve a request for proposal at its Jan. 28 meeting that will ask sign companies to submit bids to build and maintain the shelters. The first ones could be built by summer.

The only way he'll delay is if there's a definitive plan in place this month for how shelters will be built and maintained without ads, Blaylock said.

There are now shelters at about 350 of the 3,300 bus stops in Jacksonville. JTA builds about 20 a year but doesn't have the money to build and maintain more. With advertising, JTA says it could build about 80 a year.

JTA board member Cleve Warren, the point person on this issue, said he's been getting information from JTA staff before meeting with critics. He didn't view Jan. 28 as an end-of-discussion day.

"All we're doing on that day is approving a request for proposal," he said. "We can cancel it later."

Attorney William Brinton, who has advocated for the removal of billboards in Jacksonville for 20 years, expressed frustration at the pace of discussions. He met with JTA in November but has been waiting for it to provide information on the cost of maintaining shelters, and it hasn't come yet.

"I was expecting to be much further along in these discussions by now," Brinton said.

Warren believes JTA can build bus shelters on its own on major roadways like Beach, Atlantic and Normandy boulevards by getting grants and using JTA money. The cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.

The challenge is finding a way to maintain shelters after they're built. Warren estimates it will cost about $800 a year to maintain each shelter, including trash pickup, repairs to the structure, landscaping and repairs after vandalism occurs.

That means JTA pays about $280,000 now to maintain its existing shelters. Adding 80 new shelters per year would increase that cost by $64,000.

"One of the reasons hiring a sign company is attractive is that they would be committing to pay for the maintenance," Warren said. "The other side needs to come up with a way to do that if we're not going to have signs."

Tracey Arpen, a former city attorney who defended the sign law in court, said it's possible to designate some of the money collected from code enforcement violations like littering and illegal signs in the right-of-way to go toward shelter maintenance since those violations would impact the bus shelters.

But it's hard to make a specific proposal, Arpen said, until JTA shares the data on what the maintenance money is needed for maintaining the shelters.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-11/story/plan_to_build_bus_shelters_with_advertising_in_jacksonville_moves_forwar

"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."

- i'm sure he's bombarded with questions from the bus riding public at every meeting he attends.

I find it interesting that JTA can have acess to $60 Million Dollars to build a new "Transportation Center" but can not build some lousy bus shelters! With the delay in producing numbers that show difinitively just what dollars it takes to maintain shelters, I get the impression that JTA is cooking the numbers! If JTA does not know by now, how long have they been operating, when will they know? This is an Agency that has gaps in their information base and to me, shows how inept they really are........BRT huh?

CS....JTA does not have access to $60 million for the Transportation Center!

For the last (hopefully) time, JTA made a joint request (along with FDOT) for a Federal stimulus TIGER grant....if that doesn't come through, its back to the drawing board.

Prior to the stimulus, the plan has always been to use FDOT funds to build the Transportation Center.

QuoteThe only way he'll delay is if there's a definitive plan in place this month for how shelters will be built and maintained without ads, Blaylock said.

For those who don't like this plan, you better get to work.  You have 20 days.

Quote"I should have realized when JTA said they'd talk to us it was all just lip service," he said.

QuoteBut it's hard to make a specific proposal, Arpen said, until JTA shares the data on what the maintenance money is needed for maintaining the shelters.

QuoteFor those who don't like this plan, you better get to work.  You have 20 days.

Lake, how does one come up with a better plan when JTA won't provide basic info or even has a conversation about the subject, with a City Council rep no less.

JTA is being a bully about this and, regardless of your position, you should be concerned as community funds and issues are at stake.  If they play this way this time, next time it could be something you care about that gets steamrolled by their bureaucracy.

QuoteFor the last (hopefully) time, JTA made a joint request (along with FDOT) for a Federal stimulus TIGER grant....if that doesn't come through, its back to the drawing board.

Prior to the stimulus, the plan has always been to use FDOT funds to build the Transportation Center.

Funny, JTA can get creative finding grants for a new HQ's for its execs to the tune of $60 million, but it can't apply or locate similar grants for a fraction of that amount for bus shelters?  Right.

Also, once JTA builds their gold-plated monument to themselves, how much per year to you think it will cost to operate and maintain it versus their current digs?  That will come out of JTA operating revenues, you think?  And, I bet it will be several times the costs of maintaining all those bus shelters.

The fact is, JTA is playing all kinds of games and lacks adequate scrutiny by outsiders.  BRT, Transportation Center, $ky-high-way, Bus Shelter Ads, Outer Beltway, 9B, lousy bus routes and headways, NO street cars or commuter rail, Dames Point Bridge port limiter due to height and pier placement, etc.  How many boneheaded bad decisions does JTA make or participate in before we say enough is enough.  In fact, I am hard pressed to think of one world class facet of JTA other than their self promotion.  Did I miss anything?

QuoteThe fact is, JTA is playing all kinds of games and lacks adequate scrutiny by outsiders.  BRT, Transportation Center, $ky-high-way, Bus Shelter Ads, Outer Beltway, 9B, lousy bus routes and headways, NO street cars or commuter rail, Dames Point Bridge port limiter due to height and pier placement, etc.  

JTA is not involved in the outer beltway or the 9B project- those are FDOT projects.  In the case of the beltway, it would be an FDOT/PPP.

I didn't realize JTA was building a gold plated monument to themselves. I think the design actually looks pretty crummy and should be redesigned.

Quote from: fsujax on January 11, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
I didn't realize JTA was building a gold plated monument to themselves. I think the design actually looks pretty crummy and should be redesigned.

As I have posed before...............$60 Million Dollars (Phase one cost) is ridiculous! Got access to that kind of for new and improved headquarters but we really need advertising to get more bus shelters up and maintained? What kinda of idiots do they think we are...............I say buy JEA's Bldg downtown,renovate and the cost would be lots less than the $60 Million Dollars of my tax money they want to spend! Incompetent buffoons and their game plans show it!

you're at it again CS....what proof do you have that buying and renovating the old JEA HQ could be done for less than $60 million?

and, btw, the $60 million does include re-building portions of the skyway station, adding ground floor retail, and providing some BRT shelters....so, add that into your JEA building estimate for good measure!

tufsu..........your the one that posted the new "Transportation Center" was going to cost us taxpayers $60 Million Dollars for phase one! I know that the old JEA Bldg, downtown by the courthouse, is currently on the market for $11 Million Dollars........so to me quite simple! Bldg renovation would not cost $49 Million Dollars worst case scenario! That is a relatively new Bldg and not old enough to asbestos problems and the like unless the Building Inspectors/Architect were not doing something up to code! Any so-called new Transportation Center does not need to be built from scratch, does not need to eat up valuable downtown realestate or contribute to urban sprawl. Why not use something that is allready built, established footprint, accessible to all? Skyway station does not need to be enhanced, looking at ridership,add ground floor retail at new location and if JTA has access to $60 Million Dollar line of credit, why ain't they building shelters now? JTA still has not produced shelter maintenance numbers as of this morning and I don't think they know what those figures are! So the only thing that will happen at the proposed location is new.............other than that JTA has not meet any management criteria of doing the job correctly, cost effective and they don't deserve new just for the sake of new!

Quote from: cline on January 11, 2010, 01:13:24 PM
JTA is not involved in the outer beltway or the 9B project- those are FDOT projects.  In the case of the beltway, it would be an FDOT/PPP.

JTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A.  JTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio.  Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County.  After all, that is their mission, is it not?

Quote
Currently, the TPO has fifteen voting members and five non-voting/ex officio members as listed below.

   * Two Clay County Commissioners
   * One St. Johns County Commissioner
   * One Nassau County Commissioner
   * Mayor, City of Jacksonville
   * Mayor, City of St. Augustine or St. Augustine Beach (rotating)
   * Three Jacksonville City Council Members
   * One Mayor from the Beaches Communities - Atlantic Beach, Neptune Beach or Jacksonville Beach
   * Jacksonville Port Authority Board Member
   * Jacksonville Aviation Authority Board Member
   * Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board Member
   * St. Augustine - St. Johns County Airport Authority Board Member
   * Nassau County Ocean, Highway and Port Authority Board Member
   * Ex officio members include: District 2 Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation; a representative from the U.S. Navy and a representative from the Baker, Flagler and Putnam County Commissions.

Quote from: fsujax on January 11, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
I didn't realize JTA was building a gold plated monument to themselves. I think the design actually looks pretty crummy and should be redesigned.

FSU, you are correct.  The design is "crummy".  But, the price is "gold plated".  Just another bad deal for the taxpayers.  ???

I am glad to see JTA is moving forward with this.  They could talk forever with the people against bus shelters and not get anywhere.  Advertising is the way to go, a reliable, sustainable source of funding. It's a no brainer.

Lest there be any doubt, 9B is even listed on JTA's current project list on their web site:

http://www.jtaonthemove.com/Projects/showPage.aspx?Sel=24

I also note that at least 5 JTA people were at the March 28, 2007, First Coast Outer Beltway Industry Forum including its CEO, Mr. Blaylock, and Cleve Warren, Board Chair.  That's pretty heavy duty interest for a "non-JTA" project.

http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Industry%20Forum%20Attendees%203-28-2007.pdf

QuoteThey could talk forever with the people against bus shelters and not get anywhere.  

Professor, stop spinning this.  No one I know of is against bus shelters.  You are trying to demonize those opposed to the advertising model.  That's what's wrong with debating issues in public nowadays.  People don't debate the issues, they personally attack those who differ.  That is hardly a constructive way to engage in meaningful discourse.  Let's try raising the bar here.

I have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!

Quote from: stephendare on January 11, 2010, 04:36:47 PM
I think, if you recall to the prior conversation, this is exactly what we reported was happening at the time.

Of course this didnt keep a couple of posters from claiming that we were simply making up the conversation, but this is exactly what the JTA was telling us would be the outcome.

Stephen, you were right.  JTA talked with fork tongue, out both sides of the mouth, or whatever.  Message is be careful communicating with JTA because they will shift the ground under your feet at will.

You had multiple people including a City Council rep and a well respected attorney walk away from JTA meetings with one understanding (and even the newspaper).  You had JTA talk differently in other circles.  You did a good job of reading the tea leaves.  Shame on others for believing JTA would deal with them in good faith.

I think if Cobb County Transportation can handle it in Marietta, Georgia. JTA can figure it out.

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
I have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!

Advertising is how other cities fund these projects.  It is a source of revenue.  Look at other cities.

Quote from: stjr on January 11, 2010, 06:32:16 PM

QuoteThey could talk forever with the people against bus shelters and not get anywhere. 

Professor, stop spinning this.  No one I know of is against bus shelters.  You are trying to demonize those opposed to the advertising model.  That's what's wrong with debating issues in public nowadays.  People don't debate the issues, they personally attack those who differ.  That is hardly a constructive way to engage in meaningful discourse.  Let's try raising the bar here.

I think the bar has been risen and it has taken too long for you to limbo under it.  More walk, less talk.

QuoteJTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A.]

The fact is FDOT is the only one that has any money.  No one has money for the outer beltway, that's why it would be a PPP with FDOT.  

QuoteJTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio.  Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County.

So because JTA has ONE vote on a committee that means they have "huge influence" and "unofficial veto power" over decisions made by the TPO board?  

Also, you refer to "transit projects", the projects I am referring to (outer beltway and 9B) are not transit projects.  

good point cline...just about every transportation group in the region has supported 9B and the Outer Beltway in one way or another. (this is regionalism whether we like it or not)...that doesn't mean they are funding/constructing either road!

cs - I think the old JEA, which was the original home of the Independent Life Insurance Building (before Independent build what is now the Modis Building) was built in the 1950s - I would bet dollars to donuts the building is chock full of asbestos.

Quote from: cline on January 11, 2010, 08:57:45 PM

QuoteJTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A.

The fact is FDOT is the only one that has any money.  No one has money for the outer beltway, that's why it would be a PPP with FDOT.  

QuoteJTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio.  Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County.

So because JTA has ONE vote on a committee that means they have "huge influence" and "unofficial veto power" over decisions made by the TPO board?  

Also, you refer to "transit projects", the projects I am referring to (outer beltway and 9B) are not transit projects.

Cline, you aren't going to convince me that JTA doesn't have the ability to veto nearly every major road project in Duval County regardless of who pays for it, builds it, or approves it otherwise.  JTA is supposed to be our master transportation planner and the only way they can be effective is if they have some strong degree of control over all transit projects in Duval County.  I would be willing to wager that, at a minimum, every major road project in Jax, before going forward, gets the approval of both JTA and FDOT and the only real difference in them is who pays for what and where that money comes from.  I think to believe otherwise is to be naive regardless of any public pronouncements.

By the way, how about this little tidbit from Page 21 of JTA's 2008 annual report:

QuoteFuture roadway improvements include .... next-generation work to include the outer beltway.

The report notes also that the FDOT district secretary sits as the 7th board member of JTA as well.  Now tell me the two agencies aren't tied at the hip and JTA isn't involved in all these projects.

As to the TPO, I often wonder if it isn't just a flunky for JTA and FDOT designed to create the illusion that there is broad based support for projects.  Can anyone tells us of a major JTA approved road request that the TPO didn't endorse?  At a minimum, there is so much political and agency incest, its really hard to tell the players apart.  That's likely on purpose so that public officials and bureaucrats can disguise their hand in the process and avoid true accountability.

As to "transit", in my mind, that applies to a system covering any mode of transportation including automobiles.  So yes, I include roads such as the Beltways and 9B.  I would say the dictionary agrees with one of the definitions of "Transit" as: "transportation system: a facility consisting of the means and equipment necessary for the movement of passengers or goods"

Quote from: TheProfessor on January 11, 2010, 06:58:18 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 11, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
I have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!

Advertising is how other cities fund these projects.  It is a source of revenue.  Look at other cities.

CS, I agree with your comment and the Professor again just dances around the question with nonsense.  I asked this same question earlier in this thread and not one advertising proponent has answered it.  How much do shelters and their maintenance costs verus how much revenue do ads on them bring in?  Where is the plan?  JTA hasn't publicized a budget to date.

Quote from: TheProfessor on January 11, 2010, 06:59:33 PM
I think the bar has been risen and it has taken too long for you to limbo under it.  More walk, less talk.

More Professor mumbo jumbo?

QuoteWarren believes JTA can build bus shelters on its own on major roadways like Beach, Atlantic and Normandy boulevards by getting grants and using JTA money. The cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.

The challenge is finding a way to maintain shelters after they're built. Warren estimates it will cost about $800 a year to maintain each shelter, including trash pickup, repairs to the structure, landscaping and repairs after vandalism occurs.

That means JTA pays about $280,000 now to maintain its existing shelters. Adding 80 new shelters per year would increase that cost by $64,000.

So, JTA had about $85 million in cash (non-depreciation, for Tufsu) operating expenditures ($68.5 million for buses) and another $174 million in governmental fund expenditures in 2007/08.  And, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service?  That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone.  Really, now, less than 1%.  How hard could that be?

Why are you all complaining about the bus shelter advertising....this is a way for private companies to help with public infrastructure....for all of the capitalist free-market folks and the low tax people, this should be a good thing!

QuoteCline, you aren't going to convince me that JTA doesn't have the ability to veto nearly every major road project in Duval County regardless of who pays for it, builds it, or approves it otherwise.

So, in your mind JTA weilds more power than FDOT and can override their decisions on projects whenever they want?  

QuoteAnd, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service?  That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone.  Really, now, less than 1%.  How hard could that be?

But why should they?  If they can get the private sector to pay for it why should they spend other monies?

QuoteWhy are you all complaining about the bus shelter advertising....this is a way for private companies to help with public infrastructure....for all of the capitalist free-market folks and the low tax people, this should be a good thing!

QuoteBut why should they?  If they can get the private sector to pay for it why should they spend other monies?

Cline and Tufsu, this is NOT a decision only about money.  If it was, everyone would support it.  But, if you took the time to hear why people where opposed, you would realize there is a serious concern raised by expert attorneys that bus shelter advertising could open the door for the return of billboards in Jax.  You may not care, but many of us who do, remember how ugly the city became, overrun by these and other signs.

The problem with this discussion is the lack of understanding and/or appreciation for the sign issue and that it's about the tail wagging the dog.  It's not worth opening up billboards and flashing signs over a few hundred thousand dollars for JTA who, wasting millions on the $ky-high-way alone, can't solve this issue in a more creative fashion that avoids risking the visual environment for all of us.

QuoteSo, in your mind JTA weilds more power than FDOT and can override their decisions on projects whenever they want? 

It's JTA's mission to control transportation in Jax/Duval County and that says it all.  I am not comparing their "power".  There may be projects JTA can't or won't due without FDOT but the reverse is true as well.  As I already noted, JTA and FDOT are so incestuous with respect to road building, to outsiders, it's often hard to tell them apart, other than with regards to funding mechanisms.  I doubt even JTA would disagree with me on this one.

One more log on the fire stjr...............JTA has yet to announce any numbers at all regarding the Maintenance issue.........no matter who puts them up, according to JTA they spend money on maintaining them! It sure would be nice if JTA could and would provide actual dollars as to the cost............I guess they are still discussing just what that figure should be since I don't remember seeing anyone working on any shelter anywhere! Does anyone know anything about this?

QuoteBut, if you took the time to hear why people where opposed, you would realize there is a serious concern raised by expert attorneys that bus shelter advertising could open the door for the return of billboards in Jax.  You may not care, but many of us who do, remember how ugly the city became, overrun by these and other signs.

So what about other cities that have bus shelters with advertising on them?  Are they overrun with billboards as well? 

Quoteother than with regards to funding mechanisms

That's a big "other".

Quote from: cline on January 12, 2010, 10:42:52 AM

QuoteBut, if you took the time to hear why people where opposed, you would realize there is a serious concern raised by expert attorneys that bus shelter advertising could open the door for the return of billboards in Jax.  You may not care, but many of us who do, remember how ugly the city became, overrun by these and other signs.

So what about other cities that have bus shelters with advertising on them?  Are they overrun with billboards as well?  

the short answer...NO!

I grew up in the Baltimore-Washington area....plenty of bus shelter ads, very few billboards.

As for the CS question regarding maintenance, JTA has provided the #...they say it costs around $850 per year to maintain each shelter (and those are ones without power/heat)....in the future, the shelters would be maintained by the ad company (the deal is for installation and maintenance).

QuoteSo what about other cities that have bus shelters with advertising on them?  Are they overrun with billboards as well?

Cline, my understanding is that Jax is a national leader in controlling billboards and other communities have looked to us for an example. Billboards in Jax are BANNED with the exception of those grandfathered in.  As they disappear, they cannot be replaced, so, one day, we could be completely free of billboards.   :)

The concerns about billboards are being raised by attorneys considered national experts in this area of law.  JTA's attorneys have no such expertise but claim to know what they are talking about anyway.

"Overrun" is a relative and subjective term.  If the billboard was looking down on your house, it may be the only billboard, but I bet you would have reached your "limit".

Quoteother communities have looked to us for an example

I'd like to hear the names of these communities.

QuoteBillboards in Jax are BANNED with the exception of those grandfathered in.  As they disappear, they cannot be replaced, so, one day, we could be completely free of billboards.  

In theory this is how it supposed to be, in practice it is not always the case.  A few months ago Folio talked about this and discovered the some of the Billboard companies (I believe the example was Clear Channel) actually stealthily go out and repair billboards that are damaged or falling down- even though this is against the law.  There is not always strict enforcement.

tufsu...thanks for the information! $850 per shelter seems high to me, just off the top of my head! Is this a figure they will stay with or just a responce to all of the inquiry"s? Is this a yearly figure,quarterly or monthly?

FYI, here is a recent LA Times article showing that billboard ads versus other exceptions such as bus shelters is currently at a split decision pending appeals in the Federal Courts.  Until appeals play out at the Supreme Court level, this is the legal hazard, as I understand it, that concerns those attorneys, etc. opposing JTA's plans.

QuoteU.S. court upholds L.A. ban on billboards

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling
January 07, 2009|David Zahniser and Phil Willon

A federal appellate court issued a ruling Tuesday upholding Los Angeles' citywide billboard ban, handing a rare victory to the city in its uphill battle to regulate outdoor signs.

The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said the city's 2002 outdoor advertising ban does not violate a sign company's 1st Amendment right to free speech, reversing a lower-court ruling.

Outdoor advertising company Metro Lights LLC had argued that the city could not prohibit new "off-site" signs -- images that advertise products not sold on the immediate property -- while at the same time selling advertising space on city-owned bus benches and kiosks. Metro Lights had accused the city of auctioning off "1st Amendment rights to the highest bidder."

....Last year, a federal judge sided with World Wide Rush, a firm that argued that the city cannot ban billboards while allowing certain exceptions, such as a zoning district near Staples Center that permits outdoor signs. That ruling, which is on appeal, still prohibits the city from enforcing its 2002 billboard ban.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/07/local/me-billboard7

Also, found this AP article summarizing Jax's fight to ban billboards in 1987:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1347&dat=19870604&id=LskSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=k_sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6826,1252867

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 12, 2010, 01:54:49 PM
tufsu...thanks for the information! $850 per shelter seems high to me, just off the top of my head! Is this a figure they will stay with or just a responce to all of the inquiry"s? Is this a yearly figure,quarterly or monthly?

the figure comes from the article on Page 8 of the thread....says JTA pays $280,000 annually for the 350 existing shelters....so, oops, that's $800 per year for each shelter....still doesn't seem high to me....remember there's trash collection, lawn maintenance, inspections, etc.

So there is 350 shelters taken care of at an annual cost of $279,500 (I cheated broke out a calculator.....toes are too cold to use)...........I assume this is a JTA maintenance crew doing this work or is this sub'd out?

Quote...remember there's trash collection, lawn maintenance, inspections, etc.

All of this could be done by the regular clean up crews that do road maintenance.  No need for a separate crew.  Marginal costs: Near zero.

The only legit costs would be to repair or paint metal and I doubt that would be needed very often if this is commercial grade outdoor equipment.  Marginal costs: Again, not much.

Add that JTA doesn't effectively maintain the $ky-high-way stations per MJ posts, I doubt that the shelters, even when they need attention, will get any.  Marginal costs:  Again, not much.

So what's the big deal?

I  :-* billboards!  They are a great means of communication of businesses to potential customers, especially the ones stuck in traffic.  We need more commercial activity, not less and advertising helps increase commercial activity.  It's a beautiful thing!

If JTA can find a new source of revenue, I am all for bringing Gold Club ads to my backyard!

I think we need to make sure that JTA manages what they now efficiently before we consider giving them anything more!

Easy ways to pay for bus shelters:

The shelters could be purchased on credit and paid off over a period of years from advertising income.

JTA can buy the shelters and use them to advertise their own services especially the bus service. They could display maps and schedules. They could show pictures of glamourous people riding the buses or local politicians happily waiting for the bus on their way to work. This will convince people to stop driving and ride the bus.

JTA can rent or sell the the shelters to advertisers who will be responsible for maintainance. 

The shelters can be placed near Churches where they are needed anyway.  The church can advertise their services and schedule and events and spread the Good Word with inspirational messages.  This will also prevent  underwear ads in front of Jacksonville churches.

Fraternal organizations like  Kawanis Rotary, Elks,  Masons, Knights of Columbus, non-profit organizations like United Way or Red Cross can have income from selling advertising space.

Movie theaters, factories, large companies, malls and shopping centers all have something to communicate to everyone in their vicinity.   Most of all, making travel to their location comfortable convenenient and economical is a benefit worth any price.

It is the business of advertising agencies to own shelters and sell advertizing.  You can ask advertising companies to install whatever kind of shelter you want.
Here are Bus Stop Shelters that pay for themselves. http://www.sundialenergy.com/se_css_pages/product_bus_shelt.htm
They have a solar powered lighting system that comes on after dark and illuminated billboards for advertising revenue. The billboards are visible every day to all passing traffic in both directions and the waiting passengers read the message over and over conciously and unconciously.
After the income from advertising pays for the shelter, every bus stop becomes a steady source of revenue.
The passengers, especially women will be more secure after sunset waiting for the bus in a well lighted place. These shelters are essential for rural bus stops or anywhere there is no convenient power source.
If passengers can travel in comfort and luxury, they will prefer not to drive. So don't leave the passengers in the dark, or the hot sun, or out in the rain.

Solaron.....I agree! There are alot of things that JTA could do but in their infinite wisdom will not! They are more concerned about "Gold Plated" Transportation Center and concrete than they are about fullfilling their mandate! What you have outlined is some of the things that have been discussed here but one more voice is more than welcomed!

Looking at the ads I see on busses the JTA seems to keep the ads tasteful. I do think they may have had some hooters ads once.

JeffreyS.........therein lies one potential problem...........what Church group is going to green light a bus slathered in "Hooters" adds? I don't care one way or the other...............but someone will take offense and thats when we start having the "ADD" Police or someone somewhere dictating which adds are acceptable or not!

Freebies for JTA, ugly ads, ad police, lights or no lights, sign rules, deceit, back room deals, good ol' boy's, etc...

IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT!  It is about that student nurse, standing in a pouring rain at Emerson and Philips Highway at 8:00 pm in a pair of ruined shoes, water pouring off of her notebook. It's about 3 elderly couples who have to stand in the blazing sun at Atlantic and Monument, in order to get out towards San Pablo, the Publix and CVS. It's about the Sailor on a port visit from Argentina that wants to see the city but doesn't speak a word of English, though he has a pocket full of money, the bus stop offers no clue on when to expect a ride, what ride to catch, or a place to sit down. The business man in Orange Park has sampled and enjoys the morning and evening express buses, until that windy day when it was 18 degrees outside.

It's about SERVICE, every customer, everywhere, every time, if a deal can be made for bus shelters with or without perks, I say let's get after it!

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...........as you say "It is about Service"! JTA has access to a $60 Million Dollars line of credit to build a Transportation Center for what? Boils down to gold plated new offices and I say if they can do that.............we should not have put adds on bus shelters in order to build them! To me that is just as plain as "JTA loves concrete" and JTA needs to come off of their stash of money and build some! Y'all seem to have forgotten about the unused money that was found in an unused account, JTA has not mentioned anything further about it, what happened to those dollars?

My only thoughts are:

1. Why punish the passenger because we want JTA to fund this out of their pocket.

2. There have to be at least 1,000 other needs that the JTA "jackpot" can be spent on, especially if the shelters can be made to pay for themselves.

In the old NATTU, NARTTU and MAINSIDE Navy schools here in Jacksonville, the lounges, libraries (3 of them), barber shops and beauty shops all had generous magazine racks from which to choose reading material while you waited.  Everyone wanted the Navy to pay for all of the materials, but the budget for such "pretty's" was laughable.  The Exchange Officer, came up with a stroke of genius, all of the magazines went into their very own hard plastic "magazine covers," each cover had a hidden slip pocket, where 8.5 x 11 size paper stock could be inserted.   These covers were very substantial and in some circles they have survived to this day...  BUT, What made them so special is they all carried local advertising within those nice plastic covers.  So many ad's were sold, that the selection was expanded again and again, and the USN never spent a nickle more on magazines.

Get some commercial business to pay for our shelters and let's use the money in the JTA accounts for meaningful improvements such as "Google Bus", "Next Bus," "News Ticker", "Real Time Arrivals-Departures Information Boards..." etc.

PS: Mike Blaylock is a man after my own heart, he doesn't like the "Bus Wrap" ad's and has opened discussion on banning them.  I think transit vehicles of a uniform general appearance draw more passengers then rolling bill boards.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, again, the total costs of bus shelters by any measure is peanuts to JTA.  Why is it that this is the issue JTA suddenly becomes so "cost conscious" over?  Check out their executive compensation, employee pension and other benefits, wasted $$ on the $ky-high-way, or other inefficiencies that you would be certain to find in a governmental bureaucracy such as JTA.  Or, let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc.

There is a pattern of un-imaginative thinking among our engineering friends at JTA and FDOT.  We see it here, in their road and bridge structures, the proposed transportation center, transit solutions, etc.  Other people need to get involved in these projects who bring different thinking, approaches, and creativity.  How about some marketing types who work from what the customer NEEDS and WANTS, not what the engineers think is the answer for them?  Maybe, then, we would get transit models that people actually use in numbers because they are truly satisfied with the service being offered.

stjr.......I agree! In the overall context, shelter cost and the so-called maintenance, is peanuts compared to their overall Budget! There is no reason to not build them other than get more bus's that have a dozen riders on them......plus their new! Executive Compensation, employee benefits, $kyway costs and awhole host of inefficiences add up to Bull Excrement! If they wanted to, they could! Advertising revenue only accounts for 3% of the income and until they get their house in order, they don't deserve more!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 15, 2010, 10:21:17 PM
Ock...........as you say "It is about Service"! JTA has access to a $60 Million Dollars line of credit

NO THEY DON'T!

tufsu..........then you mean that they will be using "Taxpayer" monies? If that is so, then they had better get some taxpayer input, because I for one am against the where and the proposal in general. There are other Bldg's that could be renovated for what is proposed at a far less cost to whomever is paying for it. The Federal Bldg comes to mind as to a Bldg and its location.

Quote from: stjr on January 15, 2010, 11:12:41 PM
Ock, again, the total costs of bus shelters by any measure is peanuts to JTA.

Honestly? In ANY public transportation agency, nothing that represents a capital cost is "peanuts." While it's true some agency MIGHT get $60 Million to do this or that, the amount of documentation, needs assessment's, environmental and engineering is never so flipant as to be peanuts. The matching funds in almost any improvement project involve a great deal of human mental capital as well. These grants are often a one shot in a lifetime (for a engineer - executive - planner) to plan, buy, install and use the new XXX.

QuoteWhy is it that this is the issue JTA suddenly becomes so "cost conscious" over?  Check out their executive compensation, employee pension and other benefits, wasted $$ on the $ky-high-way, or other inefficiencies that you would be certain to find in a governmental bureaucracy such as JTA.  Or, let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc.

Cost Conscious is good, it's what we have wanted them to be for a long time. Cutting costs and improving services is a candle burning at two ends, Amtrak was assigned a similar order in 1971, which set the company in a 35 year rut.  Compensation and benefits are not "all that" at JTA either, if you want excellent transit, just follow the money. Jacksonville Transportation Authority uses passenger miles as a performance measure for its transit system and the ratio of passenger miles to seat miles available as a productivity measure for individual routes.  This system is superior to that used by the majority of Transit Systems operating in the western hemisphere, in short, JTA is a leader. * (See Note: One)

Yet in pay and benefits, from the bottom to the top, JTA is just another typical "East Mobile" industry, and falls far short of national system models.  I haven't shared this publicly, but this is a good time to do so, Mr. Blaylock and I talked job and money while driving around reviewing my streetcar and commuter rail plans. When he asked what I was making in Colombia, I thought my poor friend was going to choke to death!  "It was obvious Toto, we ARE back in Kansas again!" Although a dog of a system in Kansas probably pays better.  Before I get shot full of holes for being a snob, let's just say I decided to perform these tasks pro bono, and if I ever get into a REAL project, I'll bid in as an independent planner paid by the job.

Quote"Let JTA look for other revenue sources such as grants, community sponsors (a company or shopping center sponsoring a shelter near or on their property), etc."

Man shine the light on JTA, that is exactly what they have done with the bus shelters and it's reaping a whirlwind.

QuoteThere is a pattern of unimaginative thinking among our engineering friends at JTA and FDOT.  We see it here, in their road and bridge structures, the proposed transportation center, transit solutions, etc.  

While I'm the first to agree that the Jacksonville Terminal plans SUCK, and the buildings all look like a hokey movie set that could be labeled "Baby Milk Factory." The question is, why should the passengers have to suffer because they build ugly buildings? Bridges too low for ships or trains? or any other reason?

QuoteOther people need to get involved in these projects who bring different thinking, approaches, and creativity. How about some marketing types who work from what the customer NEEDS and WANTS, not what the engineers think is the answer for them?  Maybe, then, we would get transit models that people actually use in numbers because they are truly satisfied with the service being offered.

Both JTA and TPO have made some serious attempts at getting the public to join in, or speak up, even to offering free fried chicken dinners.  Sadly most of the chicken went uneaten, and most of the seats remained empty in these community meetings. We even posted several of these meetings on MJ and JTA announced them on TV and the TU, yet attendance still remained low.  I suspect that will continue until JTA really becomes, "Part of your day. Part of your community. Part of your life."


* (Note: One) First, data on passenger miles can better reflect transit usage.  As a real example, transit boardings in St Louis increased by 15.0 percent from 1990 to 1995 during which the light rail system started operation, while passenger miles increased by only 3.4 percent during the same period.  As a hypothetical example, consider the relative values of passenger miles per vehicle mile versus boarding per vehicle mile under two scenarios: 1) 20 persons rode a bus for 10 miles; and 2) 20 persons rode the bus for only a block.  The usage by these 20 persons is reflected as 20 passenger miles per vehicle mile under scenario 1 and about 0.5 under scenario 2.  In contrast, their usage is reflected as 2 boardings per vehicle mile under both scenarios.  Second, passenger miles data may be used to measure transit vehicle occupancy or load factor.


OCKLAWAHA

Wether it is "Passanger Mile" or "Transit Mile" either way, JTA is probably no where near capacity and judging by what I have seen.........probably in the low single didgets? In fact,come to think of it, I have never seen anything from JTA that says just what their load is! Got some figures to think about Ock? I mean if the maintenance figures are at $850 yearly per shelter, JTA is only at .5 per passenger mile, those numbers just are pitifull and should be grounds to change management over!

Quote from: CS Foltz on January 16, 2010, 05:15:38 PM
tufsu..........then you mean that they will be using "Taxpayer" monies? If that is so, then they had better get some taxpayer input, because I for one am against the where and the proposal in general. There are other Bldg's that could be renovated for what is proposed at a far less cost to whomever is paying for it. The Federal Bldg comes to mind as to a Bldg and its location.

There have been public meetings on the center in the past and there will continue to be...as a taxpayer, you get to vote on these things when you vote in local, state, and Federal elections...its called representative democracy (or a Democratic Repuiblic).

btw, why is it that you change your argument every time someone dispels your previous one?

tufsu I have done no such thing! I am still not comfortable with spending $60 Million Dollars of my hard earned tax money and don't care for the proposed location and if that Bldg design is the best we can do, we need to give someone some new crayons! There are other options to pursue and I don't see that happening! JTA appears to have the Court House mentality...........gotta have new! Bull Excrement! More Urban Sprawl, New Ediface and what comes out of it...........a new Bldg for JTA? Lots of parking there, yup.....ideal location, just like the Prime is ideally situated for a CONVENTION CENTER......right? Ohhhhhhh but the $kyway will get a new concourse..........whopee! $7 Million Dollars a year to run that silly thing and no matter how you account for riders..........whether its "Passanger Mile or Transit Mile" there ain't enough riders to substanciate keeping  it alive! Wheeeeee..........COJ has a monorail (kinda) are we not progressive! Yeah...........rail system to nowhere and it won't be extended............poop on Corriene, pull its plug!If we can give Vescor $34.3 Million Dollars for nothing............we can take up a collection and kill the $kyway!

Might as well kill downtown while you're at it then!

tufsu............Prime needs to go back to being "Transportation" oriented............new Convention Center needs to be built at the Ship Yards, Federal Bldg needs to become the new "Transportation Center"......that makes perfect sense to me and alot cheaper than what is planned! Gotta better idea then lemme hear it! I can not see adding to the urban sprawl and I am a believer in recycling bldgs which are cheaper than building from scratch! Besides with BRT working Skyway won't be needed right? I mean JTA has touted BRT as the panacea to cure all of the downtown ills did they not?

Whil the general concept is good, recycling old buildings is often NOT cheaper than building new....so what if your ideas cost more than you think they should...would you still support them?

tufsu..........I am for the most cost efficient method! This is taking into account urban sprawl, transportation issue's and the walkability aspects! My biggest problem with the proposed "Transportation Center" is cost and location! I have seen nothing that says other locations were even considered or discussed......available Bldgs and so forth! Cost is only one part of the equation but availability is another. This is more down your alley than mine...........I am just a simple taxpayer who would like to get the most for my tax money! So here is your chance to convince me otherwise.......but based on what I have seen to this point, I am against the new Center when there are other Bldgs that may suit without building something else!

Looks like JTA is still hiding the bus shelter data from the public after deceiving us with previous numbers on maintenance and costs.  How do they get away with this?  And, how do they expect us to believe anything else they say about this or other projects?  JTA already has little credibility.  It appears to be sinking to new lows.

QuoteAttorney sues JTA over public records request

   * By Larry Hannan
   * Story updated at 7:33 PM on Wednesday, Jan. 27, 2010

A former attorney with the Jacksonville General Counsel’s Office is suing the Jacksonville Transportation Authority because he says it has not complied with his public records request.

Tracey Arpen  filed suit this week in Circuit Court over a request he filed in October. Arpen is a longtime advocate of the city’s sign law, and JTA successfully lobbied the City Council last year to amend that law so it could build bus shelters with advertisements.

Arpen and others opposed that amendment.

The public records request asks for all documents identifying lobbyists, expenses, and communication regarding the sign law. It also asks for documentation that backs up an assertion JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock made in a video on JTA’s Web site that said it was responding to thousands of people who’d called for more bus shelters.

JTA is a state agency and must comply with the state public records law, the lawsuit said. Arpen said there was no reason JTA couldn’t provide the documents. He expects a hearing to occur on the matter next week.

Arpen and other argue that amending the sign law will put the law banning billboards at risk via a legal challenge from a sign company that doesn’t get the contract. JTA and lawyers for the city’s General Counsel Office dispute that.

JTA is expected to go forward with a request for proposal that will invite sign companies to bid for a contract to build and maintain shelters with ads, however the issue is not on the agenda for Thursday's JTA board meeting.

JTA can go forward with a request for proposal without asking the boards permission, it usually only asks the board for approval after getting bids from contractors. But the issue may still come up at the meeting, said spokesman Mike Miller, who also said JTA would have no comment on Arpen's lawsuit.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-27/story/attorney_sues_jta_over_public_records_request

Want to know why we don't have street cars?  Why our bus system is inadequate?  Why we are hung with a $14 million a year loss $ky-high-way that hardly anyone rides?  Why we are getting BRT shoved down our throats?  Followed by a poorly planned intermodal center?  And, urban sprawl projects like 9B and the Outer Beltway?  While commuter rail remains but a dream?  And, good bus service just as far afield?  Why a multi-hundred million dollar transportation agency needs a few paltry bucks from bus shelter ads at the risk of bringing back billboards to our community by endangering our envy-of-the-nation billboard law?  

Well, consider that JTA has become a manipulative and incompetent institution that will stop at nothing to promote itself and its underlying goals of fostering any projects that put easy money in its pocket, regardless of whether said projects are good or bad for the community JTA is supposed to serve.

Manipulation and incompetency show through listening to attorneys with conflicts of interests that speak to subjects they know not of, public officials with conflicts of interests, lying in bed with developers, being out of touch with Downtown and community planners, paying lip service to citizen complaints and input, providing blatant distribution of mis-information and inaccurate data or refusing to provide any data at all, incompetence at operating the bus system and the $ky-high-way, failing to seek competitive federal and state grants for good projects like commuter rail and street cars while taking the easy dollars for bad projects like BRT and the $ky-high-way ....

The developing pattern is that JTA prostitutes itself for the easy federal, state, and other dollars for roads we shouldn't build and questionable mass transit projects (that's why the money is easy, others are smart enough not to want these bad projects despite the easy money) while forgoing making the greater effort to seek truly competitive grants for projects that adhere to a set of consistent, common sense, and coherent priorities that would serve our community well.

Typifying much of the behavior of our "community leaders", JTA is satisfied to take what is easy, quick, "cheap" (only in the short run), but ultimately wasteful, expensive and detrimental to our community.  And, then, JTA compounds its sins by promoting its "false accomplishments" to elevate its self esteem while leaving us citizens holding the bag of crud they have left us with.

JTA "Game of the Week" and cover over by Council President Clark and JTA mouthpiece Miller below:

QuoteWebb's ties to JTA renew conflict-of-interest concerns
Council vice president also had conflict issues during landfill debate

   * By Tia Mitchell
   * Story updated at 10:51 AM on Tuesday, Feb. 9, 2010

For the second time in four months, City Council Vice President Jack Webb is being accused of concealing business dealings that pose a potential conflict of interest.

Webb, a lawyer, has been helping the Jacksonville Transportation Authority with labor negotiations since at least July, a relationship he didn’t disclose when the council voted in October on a controversial bill that paved the way for bus shelter advertising.

The General Counsel’s Office says Webb has done nothing wrong by taking JTA on as a client and continuing to vote on bills related to the agency.  But opponents of the bus shelter ads are calling for another vote, saying Webb should have been more up-front with his colleagues and the public.

In a statement Monday, Webb insisted he’s acted with “an over-abundance of caution” to ensure no conflicts of interest arise while JTA is represented by his law firm â€" Brennan, Manna and Diamond.

The council paved the way for bus shelter ads on Oct. 13 when it approved the measure on a 10-6 vote. Webb, who voted with the majority in supporting JTA’s position, also presided over debate on the issue when council President Richard Clark left the meeting early.

That same day, Webb submitted a bill for his legal services to JTA attorney David Cohen, detailing the work he did in September and bringing his three-month total to more than $8,000.

Tracey Arpen, a former City Hall attorney, attended the council meeting to argue against bus shelter advertising. He said Webb should have disclosed then that he was doing work for JTA.

“Why wouldn’t he be up-front and tell the public and his fellow council members about it?” Arpen asked Monday.

Around the time the bus shelter bill was approved by the council, Webb faced similar questions about another client. It was discovered Oct. 19 that he had been quietly representing Republic Services, a company that had vocally opposed the mayor’s proposed Trail Ridge landfill contract extension with a competitor.

Webb had been the most vocal council opponent of the deal, which was taken off the table in April. Webb denied any conflict, saying the client relationship began after the Trail Ridge discussions had ended.

But following a wave of public criticism, he dropped Republic as a client and resigned as chairman of the council’s Trail Ridge Oversight Committee.

Webb told the Times-Union about his work for JTA about two weeks ago, shortly after the paper published a story about a lawsuit Arpen filed against the agency, alleging it had been denied public records.

The councilman said he wanted to disclose his business ties to JTA in case Arpen and other critics of the bus shelter measure tried to make an issue of it.

On Friday, Webb said he started working for JTA recently, starting with some preliminary discussions a few months ago.

He said he called Cindy Laquidara , the city’s chief deputy general counsel, around Thanksgiving for legal guidance about whether working for JTA, whose budget is approved by the City Council, created a conflict of interest.

Laquidara responded in a Jan. 12 e-mail that while Webb wasn’t prohibited from working for JTA, he should seek guidance from a city attorney before voting on any measures related to JTA.

The Times-Union on Monday obtained a copy of bills that Webb submitted to JTA for legal work done in July, August and September totalling $8,263.50.

He didn’t respond to a request to clarify when he began working for JTA and why he waited until several months after the relationship began to seek guidance from the General Counsel’s Office.

Instead, Webb issued a statement via e-mail defending his position.

“In the interest of proceeding in what is perhaps an over-abundance of caution, I thought it appropriate to get confirmation from the [General Counsel]’s office regarding my earlier understanding that no conflict existed by virtue of my representation of the JTA in certain difficult labor matters,” he wrote. “I received that verbally and later in writing.”

Jon Phillips, who serves as the city’s ethics counsel, said nothing in state law precludes Webb from voting on any bill related to JTA as long as it doesn’t provide him a direct benefit. Because of this, Webb was never legally required to tell others about the work he does for the agency, Phillips said.

Webb said Friday he told Ethics Officer Carla Miller about his business relationship with JTA and had a discussion with Clark about two weeks ago.

Clark said he didn’t ask Webb when he forged the business ties with the transportation agency and will rely on him to determine when or if it should be disclosed in the future.

“The onus is entirely on him, as it is any of us,” Clark said. “It’s not my job to check on what everybody else does for a living.”

JTA spokesman Mike Miller said Webb was hired because he’s one of the best labor lawyers in Jacksonville, and JTA and Webb both agreed that there was no conflict of interest.

When it was pointed out that Webb didn’t ask for the General Counsel’s opinion until after the bus shelter vote, Miller said it didn’t seem necessary.

“He would not have voted that day if there was any question of a conflict of interest,” Miller said.

Arpen learned of Webb’s work for JTA after reviewing some of the public records he obtained during his opposition to the bus shelter bill. He believes it now puts that vote into question and Webb should take responsibility for that.

“He’s the one that ought to ask for the bill to be brought back before the City Council and the council reconsider its previous actions,” Arpen said.

But Clark said he’s comfortable with Webb’s conduct during the October meeting and the bus shelter vote.

“That is so far removed from labor negotiations, I don’t know how the two really coincide,” Clark said.

Times-Union writer Larry Hannan contributed to this report.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-08/story/webbs_ties_to_jta_renew_conflict_of_interest_concerns

The CRC wonders why people are pushing for "Ethical Guidelines" to be Incorporated into the Charter? Some of the  Commission has even gone so far as to say things such as "I don't see why it's needed" or "We already have limits" or "There is no corruption in our government"................what a wagon full of bull pucky ! This is a classic example of WHY we NEED Guidelines in black and white and on paper! That also might just slow down JTA since the Independent Agency's would be included! Your right stjr.............JTA has become a heho!

Creative minds at work as bus shelter ad opponent helps craft bill to raise money for bus shelter maintenance from illegal sign fines.  It would be ironic if JTA needs this fine money "found" by its opponent, Mr. Brinton, to make up for its own ad program shortfalls.  JTA should take note how to get creative itself without selling us out.

QuoteChanges in Jacksonville sign laws proposed to help small businesses
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-07/story/changes-jacksonville-sign-laws-proposed-help-small-businesses

By Tia Mitchell

Jacksonville could legalize roadside signs by businesses in order to help them attract customers and avoid city fines but still ban so-called “bandit” or “snipe” signs.

Real estate companies and businesses located in construction zones would benefit the most from legislation up for approval by the City Council Tuesday night.

The bill also calls for stepped-up enforcement and clean-up of the illegal snipe signs that clutter public roads with offers for everything from pressure washing to instant cash for your home.

Councilman Daniel Davis, who introduced the bill, said small business owners have called his office to complain about fines received from the city’s code enforcement division. Those signs were helping generate much-needed traffic to businesses struggling to survive in a recession, the entrepreneurs owners told him.

“During these conversations, I realized we needed to do something to remove government regulation and make it easier for them to conduct business,” Davis said.

Originally, the bill would have allowed any businesses to put up directional signs to their locations on the weekends. But the city attorneys cautioned that the language was too broad, and it was later tailored to real-estate companies only.

If the bill passes, companies must pay a $100 permit fee per sign and will be allowed to post them from 3 p.m. Friday to 3 p.m. Sunday within one mile of the subdivision, open house or model home being advertised.

The council’s Land Use and Zoning Committee also added an amendment that would allow businesses located near roadwork projects to post directional signs. Those signs can be posted 24/7 for the duration of the construction work, and no permit fee is required.

The bill would expire at the end of July 2011 unless the council votes to extend.

Environmental advocate Bill Brinton may seem like the least likely person to support more signs in public areas, but he was instrumental in crafting this update to the sign ordinance.

Brinton said he has never been against signs but rather has made it his mission to ensure the city’s sign regulations are fair while also protecting the natural scenery.

“Sometimes that means loosening up on what might otherwise be too strict and tightening down on some other things,” he said.

Davis and Brinton both studied the city’s sign ordinance 10 years ago, which was before Davis became a councilman. Over the years, some holes in city sign laws have been pointed out, and this bill will address some of them, including adding language to allow temporary election signs.

Though signs are prevalent during every election season, Jacksonville laws don’t specifically address them. That left the city vulnerable to a legal challenge, Brinton said.

Brinton said the bill also tightens the city’s anti-litter laws by adding language to enforce the cleanup of the “snipe” or “bandit” signs placed or affixed to public property or placed on a right of way.

They have become ubiquitous as small business owners attempt to entice drivers to use their services. Recently, some signs in public areas have criticize elected officials for proposed cuts to the fire department.

Enforcement of the law has been virtually non-existent, Brinton said. Now, there will be a steady stream of income to clean up the signs and fine the responsible parties.

The fines for snipe signs will be $50 for the first violation up to $350 for the fifth violation. Seventy percent of the proceeds will pay to maintain the areas around bus shelters. The remaining 30 percent will be added to the revenue from the permit fees and will fund litter clean up, including the removal of snipe signs.

Barbara Moore, the Northeast Florida division chief for homebuilder Lennar Corp., said there has been lack of clarity in the past about which types of signs were acceptable, and enforcement was inconsistent. She praised the City Council’s efforts to rewrite the laws and also provide relief for real estate businesses.

Moore said signs help firms like Lennar advertise communities that often are not visible from busy city streets. Surveys have proved those signs work, she said.

“We are most frequently told, 'I found you because of signs,’ and that is true across the country,” she said.

Moore said the plan to allow weekend directional signs was fair and allowed for a reasonable compromise between business interests and those who wanted to erase litter and visual clutter. She said the temporary nature of the signs, because they must be taken down every Sunday, is also a benefit.

“It will make those signs automatically be managed more properly,” she said. “You won’t have signs just sitting there that get old and worn out and knocked over.”

I can see where signage is important, particularly in an area that is under construction or renovation, but I have misgivings about whether or not this will be applied even handedly! JTA has not shown much innovation or creativity to this point .....why would they change now? Infact......has anyone seen any evidence of them curbing costs, other than pushing for "Advertising" so that more shelters can be built?