Bus Shelter Advertising Debate headed to City Council

[stjr]

I think, if you recall to the prior conversation, this is exactly what we reported was happening at the time.

Of course this didnt keep a couple of posters from claiming that we were simply making up the conversation, but this is exactly what the JTA was telling us would be the outcome.

Stephen, you were right.  JTA talked with fork tongue, out both sides of the mouth, or whatever.  Message is be careful communicating with JTA because they will shift the ground under your feet at will.

You had multiple people including a City Council rep and a well respected attorney walk away from JTA meetings with one understanding (and even the newspaper).  You had JTA talk differently in other circles.  You did a good job of reading the tea leaves.  Shame on others for believing JTA would deal with them in good faith.

[TheProfessor]

I think if Cobb County Transportation can handle it in Marietta, Georgia. JTA can figure it out.

[TheProfessor]

I have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!

Advertising is how other cities fund these projects.  It is a source of revenue.  Look at other cities.

[TheProfessor]

They could talk forever with the people against bus shelters and not get anywhere. 

Professor, stop spinning this.  No one I know of is against bus shelters.  You are trying to demonize those opposed to the advertising model.  That's what's wrong with debating issues in public nowadays.  People don't debate the issues, they personally attack those who differ.  That is hardly a constructive way to engage in meaningful discourse.  Let's try raising the bar here.

I think the bar has been risen and it has taken too long for you to limbo under it.  More walk, less talk.

[cline]

JTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A.]

The fact is FDOT is the only one that has any money.  No one has money for the outer beltway, that's why it would be a PPP with FDOT.  

JTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio.  Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County.

So because JTA has ONE vote on a committee that means they have "huge influence" and "unofficial veto power" over decisions made by the TPO board?  

Also, you refer to "transit projects", the projects I am referring to (outer beltway and 9B) are not transit projects.  

[tufsu1]

good point cline...just about every transportation group in the region has supported 9B and the Outer Beltway in one way or another. (this is regionalism whether we like it or not)...that doesn't mean they are funding/constructing either road!

[Charles Hunter]

cs - I think the old JEA, which was the original home of the Independent Life Insurance Building (before Independent build what is now the Modis Building) was built in the 1950s - I would bet dollars to donuts the building is chock full of asbestos.

[stjr]

JTA is in bed with both the TPO and FDOT so it would be disingenuous to say they have no involvement in the Outer Beltway and 9A.

The fact is FDOT is the only one that has any money.  No one has money for the outer beltway, that's why it would be a PPP with FDOT.  

JTA is one of 15 voting members of the TPO and FDOT serves ex-officio.  Who doesn't think JTA has a huge influence, maybe even unofficial veto power, on transit projects affecting Duval County.

So because JTA has ONE vote on a committee that means they have "huge influence" and "unofficial veto power" over decisions made by the TPO board?  

Also, you refer to "transit projects", the projects I am referring to (outer beltway and 9B) are not transit projects.

Cline, you aren't going to convince me that JTA doesn't have the ability to veto nearly every major road project in Duval County regardless of who pays for it, builds it, or approves it otherwise.  JTA is supposed to be our master transportation planner and the only way they can be effective is if they have some strong degree of control over all transit projects in Duval County.  I would be willing to wager that, at a minimum, every major road project in Jax, before going forward, gets the approval of both JTA and FDOT and the only real difference in them is who pays for what and where that money comes from.  I think to believe otherwise is to be naive regardless of any public pronouncements.

By the way, how about this little tidbit from Page 21 of JTA's 2008 annual report:

Future roadway improvements include .... next-generation work to include the outer beltway.

The report notes also that the FDOT district secretary sits as the 7th board member of JTA as well.  Now tell me the two agencies aren't tied at the hip and JTA isn't involved in all these projects.

As to the TPO, I often wonder if it isn't just a flunky for JTA and FDOT designed to create the illusion that there is broad based support for projects.  Can anyone tells us of a major JTA approved road request that the TPO didn't endorse?  At a minimum, there is so much political and agency incest, its really hard to tell the players apart.  That's likely on purpose so that public officials and bureaucrats can disguise their hand in the process and avoid true accountability.

As to "transit", in my mind, that applies to a system covering any mode of transportation including automobiles.  So yes, I include roads such as the Beltways and 9B.  I would say the dictionary agrees with one of the definitions of "Transit" as: "transportation system: a facility consisting of the means and equipment necessary for the movement of passengers or goods"

[stjr]

I have to question just how advertising on the shelters will be sustainable and reliable? Size and type of shelters are still up in the air and JTA still have not come up figures for the maintenance end! This worries me to no end!

Advertising is how other cities fund these projects.  It is a source of revenue.  Look at other cities.

CS, I agree with your comment and the Professor again just dances around the question with nonsense.  I asked this same question earlier in this thread and not one advertising proponent has answered it.  How much do shelters and their maintenance costs verus how much revenue do ads on them bring in?  Where is the plan?  JTA hasn't publicized a budget to date.

[stjr]

I think the bar has been risen and it has taken too long for you to limbo under it.  More walk, less talk.

More Professor mumbo jumbo?

[stjr]

Warren believes JTA can build bus shelters on its own on major roadways like Beach, Atlantic and Normandy boulevards by getting grants and using JTA money. The cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.

The challenge is finding a way to maintain shelters after they're built. Warren estimates it will cost about $800 a year to maintain each shelter, including trash pickup, repairs to the structure, landscaping and repairs after vandalism occurs.

That means JTA pays about $280,000 now to maintain its existing shelters. Adding 80 new shelters per year would increase that cost by $64,000.

So, JTA had about $85 million in cash (non-depreciation, for Tufsu) operating expenditures ($68.5 million for buses) and another $174 million in governmental fund expenditures in 2007/08.  And, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service?  That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone.  Really, now, less than 1%.  How hard could that be?

[tufsu1]

Why are you all complaining about the bus shelter advertising....this is a way for private companies to help with public infrastructure....for all of the capitalist free-market folks and the low tax people, this should be a good thing!

[cline]

Cline, you aren't going to convince me that JTA doesn't have the ability to veto nearly every major road project in Duval County regardless of who pays for it, builds it, or approves it otherwise.

So, in your mind JTA weilds more power than FDOT and can override their decisions on projects whenever they want?  

And, they can't find less than $500,000 for bus shelter maintenance in support of a core mission of bus service?  That's less than 1% of just the bus system cash expenses, taken alone.  Really, now, less than 1%.  How hard could that be?

But why should they?  If they can get the private sector to pay for it why should they spend other monies?

[stjr]

Why are you all complaining about the bus shelter advertising....this is a way for private companies to help with public infrastructure....for all of the capitalist free-market folks and the low tax people, this should be a good thing!

But why should they?  If they can get the private sector to pay for it why should they spend other monies?

Cline and Tufsu, this is NOT a decision only about money.  If it was, everyone would support it.  But, if you took the time to hear why people where opposed, you would realize there is a serious concern raised by expert attorneys that bus shelter advertising could open the door for the return of billboards in Jax.  You may not care, but many of us who do, remember how ugly the city became, overrun by these and other signs.

The problem with this discussion is the lack of understanding and/or appreciation for the sign issue and that it's about the tail wagging the dog.  It's not worth opening up billboards and flashing signs over a few hundred thousand dollars for JTA who, wasting millions on the $ky-high-way alone, can't solve this issue in a more creative fashion that avoids risking the visual environment for all of us.

So, in your mind JTA weilds more power than FDOT and can override their decisions on projects whenever they want? 

It's JTA's mission to control transportation in Jax/Duval County and that says it all.  I am not comparing their "power".  There may be projects JTA can't or won't due without FDOT but the reverse is true as well.  As I already noted, JTA and FDOT are so incestuous with respect to road building, to outsiders, it's often hard to tell them apart, other than with regards to funding mechanisms.  I doubt even JTA would disagree with me on this one.

[CS Foltz]

One more log on the fire stjr...............JTA has yet to announce any numbers at all regarding the Maintenance issue.........no matter who puts them up, according to JTA they spend money on maintaining them! It sure would be nice if JTA could and would provide actual dollars as to the cost............I guess they are still discussing just what that figure should be since I don't remember seeing anyone working on any shelter anywhere! Does anyone know anything about this?