I've been in Atlanta for the last few days, staying near the Battery. For those that don't know, the Battery is a Cordish-anchored development adjacent to the Atlanta Brave's Truist Park, very similar to what was proposed at Lot J. Seeing how vibrant the Battery is, around the clock, even months removed from the baseball season, has gotten me thinking back to Lot J again, and what it could have brought to the sports district.
It's been a minute, so to refresh memories, Lot J would have included:
- A 100,000 square foot Live! Arena with bars and restaurants.
- Two midrise apartment blocks with of 350-400 units
- A 120-room hotel
- 35,000 square feet of office space
- 75,000 square feet of additional retail
- 1,200 (badly needed) parking spots, 600 of which were structured garage
Here's a flyover of what the final proposal looked like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfXQvr4QsJg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfXQvr4QsJg)
I'll spare the intricate details of the financing and the controversial "bread box loan," but all in, the city of Jacksonville would have been responsible for $233 million of the $450 million project, which Cordish and the Jags would fully operate and manage.
Lot J was expected to fly through City Council, with unanimous approval. It only needed a 13-6 supermajority vote to go forward; it ended up one vote short, at 12-7, after one of the uglier political seasons in recent Jacksonville history.
My opinion only, but if the exact same plan had been voted on tomorrow, away from the taint of the JEA scandal, away from the bullying of the Curry administration, away from the unwarranted fears of Jags relocation, away from hard feelings about the Landing, and away from the disastrous 2019 Jags season that left little goodwill toward the team, it would be passed unanimously.
Wondering, with five years perspective, did the city drop the ball on Lot J?
My strong opinion is yes, we did. At the time, I thought it was a sweetheart deal for the Jags, but a necessary evil given the need for a sports & entertainment district to anchor the sports complex. Five years later, I think it might have been one of the bigger missed opportunities in city history.
For $233 million - a lot of money, no doubt - the city could have had a turnkey destination to bring the entire sports district to life. Cordish has a strong track record of bringing in and retaining quality tenants, and programming the Live! district to ensure 365 day a year vibrancy. By this time next year, construction would have been complete, and along with the new stadium, we'd have an event district ready to go to attract festivals, large sports events, and concerts. It wouldn't have been competitive with the downtown core, but additive (no one is walking out of a concert at the sports complex and heading to Laura Street for a drink), and would have sparked additional development as it rose. Further, it would have provided a parking solution across Bay Street for Shipyards West and MOSH.
Thrilled with all the new development, but we are standing up a $2 billion+ sports district right now with no complementing infrastructure to draw events or boost return. A 120-room Four Seasons and high-end restaurant are not a solution, and we're hanging that whole district, and all that investment, out to dry if we're relying on food trucks at Met Park and some small restaurants facing the river across Bay Street to provide pre and post game vibrancy.
Unpopular opinion, but I'd re-engage both the Jags and Cordish, under the new administration, to see if there was an avenue to reopen Lot J talks. It's in everyone's best interest to get moving on this fast. I can't see a universe where the ROI isn't there for the city long-term from a parking, festival, event, and vibrancy perspective. I fear we're going to sit on a solution far too long, resulting in unending construction adjacent to the new stadium, or we're going to go too small with a scaled down development that lacks the critical mass and managed service of the original plan.
Interesting to see this up. Wild to realize it's been so long already.
I do see your points, but in hindsight I still think we made the right call. We ultimately got a very good deal on actually locking down the team and renovating the stadium, especially compared to what many other cities have gotten. It was valuable to reset the relationship between the city and the team, and make it clear that while we strongly desire our NFL team, that doesn't mean we give away the farm when they lift a finger. It certainly doesn't help how badly the plans shrank from their original promises, or the way in which they did very much attempt to use the JEA headquarters project as additional public sector incentives.
Now we've secured the stadium, the Shipyards is a real known factor, we have more tangible thinking surrounding the site with Shipyards West Park and MOSH and Met Park, the Fairgrounds is now potentially also part of the conversation, and it's been long enough to have resolved those divides and clearly think through the plan and its financing given post-pandemic realities. It's very unfortunate that we simply don't have a real transit plan for moving those hundreds and thousands of people around there, but at least now we know that.
I'm cautiously open to seeing what Cordish might be interested in, although I think it would behoove the city to do full due diligence on the site first (and I'd even go so far as to suggest doing some of the initial site work to facilitate the plaza and blocks where the various uses might go) and encourage better setting of expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of hotel, retail, and office were to shift given the market shifts since the original proposal. Maybe a larger hotel with some meeting space and more housing since the office uses have moved to the Shipyards (and convention center talks have gone nowhere), or better interaction with Daily's Place since the training functions there have moved to Miller Electric Center. Perhaps there's some way to more holistically think about developing the whole S&E district. There are potentially real benefits to having this conversation in a very different context than five years ago, and those should absolutely be leveraged.
I think Lot J was well before its time. If the City put $233 million toward that, I think it would have been harder for the City to incentivize/contribute to Gateway, the Stadium renovation, MOSH, Four Seasons, Emerald Trail, etc. It only has so much money to give away. While I am not a fan of the City incentivizing these (other than the Trail) and other projects to the extent they do, given that the City did, I think it got a lot more bang for its buck than from Lot J.
Further, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away. Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."
I also think a lot of people in Jax are growing weary of subsidizing so many Khan projects given his resources and the huge sums he manages to extract from the City. And, now that Khan owns the Fairgrounds, maybe he comes back with a whole new plan and it is a blessing for all that Lot J failed in the end. I still think the lack of his personal efforts to pitch Lot J indicates he had second thoughts about it or was at least not willing to fall on his sword over it. Thus, he wasn't overly concerned if it failed, maybe even happy to get out from it while "saving face."
Random photo dump from the Battery area. A lot of these are from a Sunday morning at 9:30 AM, in 29 degree weather, before the Battery opened, if you're wondering where the people are. But gives a good idea of what Lot J would have looked like, with mid-rise residential, ground floor retail, the Live! venue, hotel, etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2RKW3Dx/IMG-9626.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/02hCFV7B/IMG-9628.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsGgBfvJ/IMG-9629.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rS1C8Nh/IMG-9634.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTNvQzkP/IMG-9635.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHTmzZcj/IMG-9638.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGpJJ8JM/IMG-9640.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgFmgvbj/IMG-9730.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JqL78HM/IMG-9731.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydKQ5LC8/IMG-9734.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0yCfmZF/IMG-9736.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrCp80qj/IMG-9739.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv8Vxpkz/IMG-9743.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfjVBC9K/IMG-9744.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNwMpVDs/IMG-9745.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCXzB0fy/IMG-9774.avif)
(https://i.postimg.cc/J47wt4gz/Screenshot-2026-01-21-at-10-34-40-PM.png)
Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 21, 2026, 06:13:45 PMI wouldn't be surprised if the amount of hotel, retail, and office were to shift given the market shifts since the original proposal. Maybe a larger hotel with some meeting space and more housing since the office uses have moved to the Shipyards (and convention center talks have gone nowhere), or better interaction with Daily's Place since the training functions there have moved to Miller Electric Center.
RE: Meeting Space. The Cobb Galleria (Cobb County's Convention Center) is a short five-minute walk to the Battery. It's not a huge convention center like others in Atlanta (though it is slightly larger than the Prime Osborne), but it's definitely a nice complimenting use to feed visitors into the Battery.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 21, 2026, 10:25:49 PMFurther, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away. Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."
Respectfully disagree on this point. I think the Pearl District and something like a Lot J serve completely different audiences that aren't necessarily competitive. The Gateway folks are essentially standing up a whole new high-end neighborhood, tailored to residents, downtown workers, UF staff and students, and adjacent neighborhoods. Lot J's activity zone would primarily exist to serve the millions of people who come to the sports complex each year for Jags, Shrimp, and Icemen games, concerts, festivals, etc. We've got four major venues (Daily's Place, Everbank Field, VyStar Arena, and the Baseball Grounds) collectively holding hundreds of events a year. These visitors are people who are going to park once, and either stay to hang out at Lot J, or go home. They're very unlikely to drive two miles and park again. I genuinely think it's vital to the success of all of these investments that we're making on that side of downtown. The Four Seasons, Met Park, MOSH, and Shipyards West are far less attractive destinations in a vacuum, with no supporting infrastructure. There's nothing for these people to do in the area once they leave. I honestly don't even know if a single daytime restaurant exists within walking distance of the sports complex at the moment. This is a huge problem, in my opinion, handicapping our ability to draw in large events and perpetuating the belief to visitors that downtown Jacksonville is lifeless and dull.
Quote from: heights unknown on January 21, 2026, 10:56:58 PM
Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.
Cobb County, technically! Northwest of the city, by the Braves' new(ish) ballpark.
Respectfully, I don't think Jax is ready for comparisons to Atlanta. We have a very long way to go there.
As to supporting more activity at the Sports Complex here, it's why I think the convention center should be added to that area. Then, maybe a Lot J style development makes more sense.
We want Gateway, Laura Street, Bay Street/Hyatt, Southbank, LaVilla and Stadium District all at once. This lack of focus is what I think has held back the whole area. We need to start with one successful area and radiate out from there. Jax just doesn't have the demographics at this time to be all things to all people. Patience, focus and long term planning... not Jax's strong points and the results show.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 21, 2026, 11:38:25 PM
Respectfully, I don't think Jax is ready for comparisons to Atlanta. We have a very long way to go there.
Fully agree, though I honestly don't consider Truist Park or the Battery to be Atlanta proper. In traffic, it's at least 35-45 minutes away from Midtown in Cobb County. But I get your point.
QuoteAs to supporting more activity at the Sports Complex here, it's why I think the convention center should be added to that area. Then, maybe a Lot J style development makes more sense.
Railroading of the Ford on Bay Convention Center RFP aside, I actually quite liked the location that the Jags proposed, directly beside where the MOSH ended up. If we had money to build a brand new convention center from the ground up, this would probably be my preferred destination. The river views make it far more attractive for events than the jail location once Berkman 2 is finally redeveloped. Could hopefully share parking infrastructure with the stadium during the week as well.
(https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/3a411e4/2147483647/strip/true/crop/5406x3330+0+84/resize/880x542!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fwjct%2Ffiles%2F201808%2Fconvention_center_image_book_08-02-18_page_1.jpg)
(https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/7b23ccd/2147483647/strip/true/crop/4863x2995+629+0/resize/880x542!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnpr-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Flegacy%2Fsites%2Fwjct%2Ffiles%2F201808%2Fconvention_center_image_book_08-02-18_page_3.jpg)
QuoteWe want Gateway, Laura Street, Bay Street/Hyatt, Southbank, LaVilla and Stadium District all at once. This lack of focus is what I think has held back the whole area. We need to start with one successful area and radiate out from there. Jax just doesn't have the demographics at this time to be all things to all people. Patience, focus and long term planning... not Jax's strong points and the results show.
Agree with you here as well on the need to master plan and prioritize. If it was me, I'd let the Southbank fend for itself for now. Let the hospitals build their own hotels. Let the luxury apartment developers cover their own costs. They're not bad projects, but they don't fit with our short-term priorities and don't complement the heavy investments that we've already made in LaVilla with UF, the northbank with Gateway and Laura Street, and the stadium district with all the things ($2 billion in new investment). But again, if we had a master plan, with roadmap, we wouldn't be two handsome fellas picking a convention center location out of a hat at 12:30 AM on a Thursday ;D
Quote from: heights unknown on January 21, 2026, 10:56:58 PM
Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.
no - this is the suburbs - outside the Perimeter (I-285).
As to comparison with Lot J - totally not relevant.
I suggest taking a look at other Cordish Live projects that tend to sit empty when there isn't an event (Xfinity Live in Philly). Also don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!
Two things can be true:
1- Its time to re-engage about Lot J, and the quicker the better given the current stadium construction schedule
2- The original Lot J proposal was simply a bad deal for taxpayers. I sincerely think the Jaguars learned a hard lesson about the way that previous deal was approached.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 22, 2026, 09:01:50 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on January 21, 2026, 10:56:58 PM
Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.
no - this is the suburbs - outside the Perimeter (I-285).
As to comparison with Lot J - totally not relevant.
I suggest taking a look at other Cordish Live projects that tend to sit empty when there isn't an event (Xfinity Live in Philly). Also don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!
If the Battery is an irrelevant comparison, Xfinity Live! is even worse. Xfinity Live! is a standalone entertainment complex, sitting in a sea of asphalt, surrounded by highways. There's nothing remotely mixed use or pedestrian friendly about it, and it complements no other investment in the area outside of the sports venues.
Would also point out that it can't be doing too bad, as a new $20 million naming rights deal for the venue was just signed, and Cordish is building a $15 million expansion of the Live! venue. Additionally, as we saw with the Jacksonville Landing, a few big events a year (ex. Florida/Georgia weekend) can result in business viability even during slower event seasons.
(https://snipboard.io/P0fwJL.jpg)
Lot J is right off the riverwalk, in a reasonably pedestrian-friendly area, directly adjacent to an insane amount of recent public investment:
Hart Bridge Ramp Removals ($39 million, specifically to make way for Lot J)
Everbank Field ($750 million)
Daily's Place Flex Field Conversion ($4 million)
121 Financial Ballpark ($32 million in recent upgrades)
Miller Electric Center ($60 million)
The Doro ($15 million)
Directly across Bay Street, to support Lot J, you've got:
Met Park rebuild ($13 million budgeted)
Four Seasons/Shipyards + Marina ($130 million)
Parcel directly adjacent to the Shipyards/Potential Medical Center (Jags are obligated to develop under the CBA; city funding TBD)
MOSH ($50 million + land)
Shipyards West Park ($93 million)
(https://snipboard.io/vAsXxP.jpg)
By my count, that's around
$1.2 billion in public money, almost all from the general fund, spent to build up a sports, park/recreation, luxury hotel, and museum district. Total investment, including private dollars, brings total new development in this area to a staggering
$2.5 billion.Let's be realistic. We have no feasible transportation solution to move anyone in mass from the sports & entertainment district into the CBD. And even if we did, the CBA is years behind a sports district that is already fully-funded. And even if it wasn't, someone parking once at the sports district is highly unlikely to Uber to Pearl Street and back.
Which leads to the same questions I've had for five years, and my deep concern here:
Where is someone staying at the Four Season at $400 a night going to walk for entertainment?
Where are festival attendees at a rebuilt Met Park going for food and a break from the sun, and where are they staying nearby?
Where are boaters at the new marina walking for drinks?
Where are MOSH or Orleck visitors getting lunch?
Where are concert-goers or game-attendees going for dinner after the game to avoid sitting in traffic?
Where are out-of-town fans visiting for a Jags game hanging out?
Where are families going after spending the morning at Shipyards West park?
Where are medical tourists at the proposed Sports & Medicine facility hanging out while their families are getting treatment?
Where is everyone parking to visit all these new and improved venues?
What are Florida/Georgia attendees congregating and spending fistfuls of money now that the Landing is gone?
Lot J answered all of those questions, and satisfied the DIA's goal of park once and stay. It added a hotel for event attendees and mixed-use residential, to add 365 day vibrancy, even on non-game days. It added 1,200 parking spaces, available to the public and easily walkable to anywhere in the district. It added a boatload of fully managed, stable retail, dining, and entertainment to support all of these facilities.
To me, a Lot J type development is the glue/anchor that brings this entire area together and turns it into a true unified sports & entertainment district that raises quality of life in the city and makes us competitive for attracting events and conferences, versus a series of isolated investments. It's the difference between a vibrant 16-hour a day district year-round, versus a $2.5 billion district that's dead by 5 PM and that people just use as a parking lot to do one thing.
Not an either/or with the CBD, to me, there's room for both, as they serve different audiences. I just can't fathom why these talks aren't happening faster. That whole area is set to be completed in time for the 2028 season. Might as well finish the job now, set everyone up for success, and prevent our shiny new sports district from becoming a construction zone again a few years down the line. Even if the tradeoff is saying no to Southbank projects or adding surcharges within the Sports & Entertainment district to offset some of the costs.
I love Cordish because it's turnkey, and they've got a proven formula that works. There are no city RFPs. There are no short-term leases or vacant storefronts. There are no individual REV grants to negotiate. It's one deal. And one operator incentivized to create a cohesive, vibrant mix.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 22, 2026, 09:01:50 AMAlso don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!
This is completely untrue. Was it a great deal for taxpayers? Probably not. Was the city being asked to pay 100% of the project? Absolutely not. The city's $230ish million covered site remediation, relocation of the Lot J retention pond, parking & pedestrian infrastructure, and half of the cost of the Live! entertainment complex. The Jags/Cordish were putting up hundreds of millions in private capital for two residential buildings, office space, the other half of the the Live! venue, retail build-out, and a hotel.
To Marcus's point earlier, I do think there was net positive with how the original plan crashed and burned. The Jags learned so much from that experience, and why it failed (secrecy, lack of public engagement, unnecessary threats, aligning too closely with an unpopular mayor, etc.) which ultimately led to one of the smoothest and fairest stadium agreements out there.
^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.
Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 22, 2026, 01:23:45 PM
^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.
Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.
Love this line of thinking, and I think it makes an overall Lot J deal much more palatable to the public as well if you decouple something that the city needs to build anyway (a parking solution) from the perceived "incentives" that Cordish/Iguana would receive for the project.
Been super busy with work lately, so haven't been able to keep up with all the discussions, but here's some more Battery pics. My son attended college nearby the past few years and we've stopped through here occasionally to watch UM, Dolphins and Jags games.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Atlanta/Battery-Live---September-2022/i-wjsjn8X/0/MSk5C6PvFBqKMQ22h6jV8ctxVHwmFm5P7LpVxbR84/XL/Resized_20220925_175333-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Atlanta/Battery-Live---September-2022/i-CCzpT6F/0/MMVbNpfQj8V9qSQcWw2xfZk5JPqxwtQ2HkzqkF4Wv/XL/20220925_194506-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Atlanta/Battery-Live---September-2022/i-bPKgtWX/0/KtfCHrFMxJWDd9j8hGvfWZkVMNs4MJKWm8nMbnG6J/XL/20220906_155316-XL.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Atlanta/Battery-Live---September-2022/i-3prfmvX/0/NQWk8XWvxfjVMZ5ZwpGPrfc6djNwQM8vNq3CpB3gG/XL/20220925_195208-XL.jpg)
In general, I think the outcome of this type of development in our Sports District back then verses what's in Atlanta's suburban version of Jax's Southside would be quite different. Different markets altogether. Spending a lot of time in Atlanta over the last few years, its the same thing with the BeltLine and the Emerald Trail. The BeltLine is full of people. The LaVilla Link and S-Line Urban Greenway.....not so much.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 21, 2026, 10:25:49 PM
I think Lot J was well before its time. If the City put $233 million toward that, I think it would have been harder for the City to incentivize/contribute to Gateway, the Stadium renovation, MOSH, Four Seasons, Emerald Trail, etc. It only has so much money to give away. While I am not a fan of the City incentivizing these (other than the Trail) and other projects to the extent they do, given that the City did, I think it got a lot more bang for its buck than from Lot J.
Further, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away. Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."
I also think a lot of people in Jax are growing weary of subsidizing so many Khan projects given his resources and the huge sums he manages to extract from the City. And, now that Khan owns the Fairgrounds, maybe he comes back with a whole new plan and it is a blessing for all that Lot J failed in the end. I still think the lack of his personal efforts to pitch Lot J indicates he had second thoughts about it or was at least not willing to fall on his sword over it. Thus, he wasn't overly concerned if it failed, maybe even happy to get out from it while "saving face."
Eventually some form of a Lot J will come. It may be another decade before you are able to pay for an overpriced beer there though. In the meantime, I hope that the Eastside groups can take advantage of the CBA to position APR as a district full of businesses, restaurants, etc. catering to crowds in the Sports & Entertainment District.
I literally can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Congrats for the news outlets & city officials for selling that the Stadium Deal was a good deal. Let's please not act like the previous Lot J deal was a bad deal compared to every other existing deal we have right now and compared to what will be ultimately requested.
They will:
A). Not Pay for the Land - they will use a Credit
B). Be allowed every incentive that every other project has gotten
C). Have a perfect use case to build structured parking to then "magically fix" the city's parking agreement debacle
Pretty ideal situation if you ask me & can easily envision a $230M+ incentive package here.
Every Existing Stadium Deal
Jacksonville: $1.4B with a 60/40 (arguably 65/35) public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bills: Originally $1.4B, with a 60/40 split, and now $2.1B 40/60 split - with no land restrictions or extras
Titans: $2.2B with a 60/40 split (public side mostly being paid by stadium revenue bonds) - with no land restrictions (go look at whats going on there)
Commanders: $3.7B with a 30/70 public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bears (Arlington Heights): $2.8B with a 30/70 split - with land restrictions (already had purchase said land for $150M+)
Chiefs: $3B with a 60/40 public/private split - without land restrictions but promise of $1B adjacent district (lured away from Missouri)
If Lot J was under construction debt with public incentives when the Stadium Negotiation came up, do you think that conversation would have gone any differently? Obviously yes.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 23, 2026, 07:43:30 AM
Every Existing Stadium Deal
Jacksonville: $1.4B with a 60/40 (arguably 65/35) public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bills: Originally $1.4B, with a 60/40 split, and now $2.1B 40/60 split - with no land restrictions or extras
Titans: $2.2B with a 60/40 split (public side mostly being paid by stadium revenue bonds) - with no land restrictions (go look at whats going on there)
Commanders: $3.7B with a 30/70 public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bears (Arlington Heights): $2.8B with a 30/70 split - with land restrictions (already had purchase said land for $150M+)
Chiefs: $3B with a 60/40 public/private split - without land restrictions but promise of $1B adjacent district (lured away from Missouri)
Will start by saying that the vast majority of all NFL stadium deals are bad deals for the taxpayers. The league is making money hand-over-fist with it's $12 billion in television deals each year. And, to me, building and maintaining the stadiums necessary to stage these very lucrative games should be a cost of doing business for NFL owners. But it's not. So cities have to make a choice as to whether they believe that the positive externalities and quality of life enhancements associated with having a team are worth playing a universally unfair game with taxpayer dollars. I happen to think that the Jags are the glue that binds this 800-square mile city together, and without them, we'd be just another faceless mid-sized market struggling to attract corporate relocations, tourists, and young professionals.
So, if we do make that collective choice that it's worth it, the best we can hope for is a fair stadium deal, relative others in the league.
The breakout you provided is accurate, but I do think there are more elements than just public/private split, particularly when the "private" numbers can be so easily manipulated with things like PSLs that pass that cost back to the taxpayers on the back end, and particularly when Jacksonville is a very unique, much smaller market versus Chicago, or DC, or even Nashville that doesn't have the population base and large-market infrastructure to make our NFL stadium a 40-event a year revenue driver.
A few reasons why I think our stadium deal was particularly fair, relatively speaking.
#1) Everbank Field is one of the oldest stadiums in the league, with parts of the stadium going back nearly 50 years. It's not modern by NFL standards. The Jags could have EASILY pushed for a brand new stadium in line with new stadiums built everywhere else in the league. I genuinely believe they made a good faith, mutually beneficial effort to keep costs down with a major upgrade, versus new construction.
#2) Even though it's only upgrades to the existing stadium, versus new stadium, the Jags agreed to a THIRTY YEAR lease extension. To me, this is huge, and needs to be factored into the cost equation. I think almost everyone was expecting 15-20 years, with a new stadium ask and another fun round of relocation speculation coming when that expired. I am still shocked that the Jags agreed to stay in town until nearly 2060 absent a new stadium. That is a HUGE win for the community.
#3) The KEY difference between the Jags new stadium deal and every other stadium that you referenced (Bills, Bears, Commanders, Titans, Chiefs) is that every single one of those other markets will be clawing back a huge chunk of that "private" investment by selling PSLs. Before any member of the public can buy a season ticket in any of these other new stadiums, they'll need to purchase a license for their seat, ranging from $750 for the top row of the nosebleeds to $75,000+ for club seats.
It makes the above private/public splits much muddier when taxpayers will ultimately be contributing hundreds of millions of dollars per market for the right to attend games at the stadium, offsetting the owners "private investments."
Estimated PSL revenues for the owners from each market:
Bills: $300 million+
Titans: $350 million
Commanders: $400 million
Bears: $500 million
Chiefs: $500 million
Jaguars: $0By not selling PSLs (confirmed by Mark Lamping in community huddles), the math changes significantly versus other markets.
I don't know what else the city could have done to get a better deal, short of demanding that Shad Khan pay full price for a publicly owned stadium, that doesn't generate much revenue outside of Jags games, in a market that he doesn't even live in.
I think we have to wear multiple hats when we comment on anything like this. I am someone who has certain values that I do believe strongly, and sometimes they do come into nuanced context where they contradict each other. There is so much that is in the grey.
I believe strongly that these billionaire owners, who make hundreds of millions of dollars of pure profit every single season (and sometimes more) should be responsible for financing the construction and maintenance of their coliseums. That is something I believe extremely strongly when I think purely of ethics and how things "ought to be." It is absurd that in a country where housing, groceries, insurance, transportation costs have grown far faster than wages...the taxpayer should be expected to pay for a fancy venue where the bulk of the utilization will be from people who do not live paycheck to paycheck.
At the same time, there are several other factors that I do ultimately result in me being tipped towards "this is a good deal, and I'm glad we negociated and took it."
1. We have a renovation that will make our stadium look shiny and new with just a "renovation." I put that in quotes because I think the vast majority of everything other than concrete will be brand new. This renovation is sometimes less than half of the cost of peer cities stadium deals.
2. We are not responsible for overruns. It is entirely possible that this stadium project ends up costing $2 billion. I think that is totally plausible. When it is all said and done, I could imagine something more like a 40/60 public/private split, which does feel unbeatable in the context of NFL stadium deals.
3. The Community Benefits Agreement, although ultimately a much smaller total number than the cost of the renovation, funds several extremely important city priorities that benefit the public in ways that would otherwise come from the treasury. Our Riverfront Parks projects will be the single most transformative project in 100 years in Jacksonville, imo. I think that we have yet to see just how radically transformative they will be in terms of perception of the city internally and externally.
4. The 30 year lease...for a city like Jacksonville that hasn't proved yet that we can reach the "world class city" label that we all want...is quite a risk on the owners part. I do believe that it is a good faith pledge that shows confidence in Jacksonville as an NFL city, in an age where every commentator looks at us with disdain as not "deserving" a team. If you divide $775 million by 30 years...you get $25.8 million per year. If you just looked at this as a line item that was "Having an NFL team" and spending $25.8 million a year on it...I think you would be hard pressed to find another "incentive package" that was more valuable. How many deals do we give away $25.8 million on through completion grands and incentives per year? How many of them contribute more to the fabric and "glue" and identity of the cities like the Jaguars?
5. There is much talk about that having an NFL team doesn't actually improve the local economy of a city enough to justify the cost of having it. I think that there are some less tangible benefits that don't get mentioned. I do believe that the Jaguars provide a type of legitimacy to the optics of our city to those who have never been here that do benefit us, especially if we become a wonderful place to visit over the coming decades. This absolutely impacts things like visibility for business deals, high level discussions, etc. I fully admit this may not "add up" to $775 million over 30 years...but I think it is worth including because it does contribute to the story.
6. What would "losing the team" have felt like to the city as a whole? This question doesn't get considered enough. Getting the team in the first place was a "Cinderella Story." and Jacksonville is a working class town with a chip on it's shoulder. The citizens here don't feel like we deserve nice things. There is an inferiority complex that many of us are working desperately on changing over the course of a generation. What would happen if we lost our NFL team right as we were starting to heat up on many other fronts? You could argue it may not have impacted the economics that much, but it would have absolutely hurt badly to hundreds of thousands of residents here and impacted their quality of life and perception of their own city.
So with all of that said...I am glad we got a 30 year lease and will spend the equivalent of $25.8 million for 30 years to remain an NFL city. This is despite me believing the fact we have to subsidize a billionaire is wrong.
5.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 22, 2026, 01:35:50 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 22, 2026, 01:23:45 PM
^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.
Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.
Love this line of thinking, and I think it makes an overall Lot J deal much more palatable to the public as well if you decouple something that the city needs to build anyway (a parking solution) from the perceived "incentives" that Cordish/Iguana would receive for the project.
As someone who skews conservative, I can tell you I love this idea. Clear public benefit. City isn't picking favorites or encumbering itself with long term risk. Just a solid base hit that moves the area into scoring position.
@Ken, I'm more so responding to your original point on Lot J. It was absolutely a mistake to not approve it when it was proposed for the simple reason that we will:
A). Pay more for the same outcome down the road
B). Have negotiated a Stadium deal WITHOUT the BS parking agreement & development credits
It's very simple. If Iguana had another $500M in projects directly adjacent to the stadium - his threat of relocation becomes laughable. It removes it from any "negotiation." Yet, the basis of many people's defense being "were a small market & he was going to relocate" - so we give them a crazy good deal. Even though there's already a ton of doubt a team in London is even feasible, people still bring that up a point as if there's no context to that & as if he has no other business interests. Is it a coincidence the Four Seasons started when it did? No. Lol.
I goto the Jags games, I am happy they are staying. I will enjoy the new Stadium. I can also acknowledge that we arguably got the worst Stadium Deal of the bunch. PSL's are not public revenue dollars so that's really a mute point for me. Most of these deals have the teams earning all the game-day revenue anyway. The only deal that even comes close is using game day revenues to pay bonds. The point on cost increases would be relevant but the city purposely stepped in to help there... so again, not really the same thing as what's going on in Buffalo with a $400M overage that the team is 100% covering.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 22, 2026, 01:23:45 PM
^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.
Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.
My point from years ago would be proven true with this. A 1,500 space parking garage is a cool $100M. That doesn't include any costs for the retention pond, or antenna relocation.
^ Somehow the airport is getting a 2,000 space garage for $92 million (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/apr/15/third-jacksonville-international-airport-parking-garage-taking-off/). Have concrete costs risen 50% since April?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 23, 2026, 07:43:30 AM
Every Existing Stadium Deal
Jacksonville: $1.4B with a 60/40 (arguably 65/35) public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bills: Originally $1.4B, with a 60/40 split, and now $2.1B 40/60 split - with no land restrictions or extras
Titans: $2.2B with a 60/40 split (public side mostly being paid by stadium revenue bonds) - with no land restrictions (go look at whats going on there)
Commanders: $3.7B with a 30/70 public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bears (Arlington Heights): $2.8B with a 30/70 split - with land restrictions (already had purchase said land for $150M+)
Chiefs: $3B with a 60/40 public/private split - without land restrictions but promise of $1B adjacent district (lured away from Missouri)
If Lot J was under construction debt with public incentives when the Stadium Negotiation came up, do you think that conversation would have gone any differently? Obviously yes.
The Panthers deal (which is probably closer to what we could have ended up with, being a renovation and not a new stadium like everything on your list) is a lot worse than we got: $800M with an
80/20 public/private split, and not even getting a roof for the trouble.
It's also worth noting that the initial stadium proposals in 2023 (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/) had proposed bundling Lot J into the renovations, and that at least would have been a $75-100 million city investment in a $500-668 million project, but with (seemingly) no community benefits agreement
and a larger share paid on the stadium itself, while
also expecting to bundle the UF campus into it. I really hesitate to say that either that or taking the deal in 2021 would have been a better deal than where we are today. I recognize that the parking agreement and credits aren't ideal but I still think they appear to beat the reasonably likely alternatives, especially on top of resetting the overall relationship.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 23, 2026, 03:38:46 PM
^ Somehow the airport is getting a 2,000 space garage for $92 million (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2025/apr/15/third-jacksonville-international-airport-parking-garage-taking-off/). Have concrete costs risen 50% since April?
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 23, 2026, 07:43:30 AM
Every Existing Stadium Deal
Jacksonville: $1.4B with a 60/40 (arguably 65/35) public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bills: Originally $1.4B, with a 60/40 split, and now $2.1B 40/60 split - with no land restrictions or extras
Titans: $2.2B with a 60/40 split (public side mostly being paid by stadium revenue bonds) - with no land restrictions (go look at whats going on there)
Commanders: $3.7B with a 30/70 public/private split - with land restrictions & extras
Bears (Arlington Heights): $2.8B with a 30/70 split - with land restrictions (already had purchase said land for $150M+)
Chiefs: $3B with a 60/40 public/private split - without land restrictions but promise of $1B adjacent district (lured away from Missouri)
If Lot J was under construction debt with public incentives when the Stadium Negotiation came up, do you think that conversation would have gone any differently? Obviously yes.
The Panthers deal (which is probably closer to what we could have ended up with, being a renovation and not a new stadium like everything on your list) is a lot worse than we got: $800M with an 80/20 public/private split, and not even getting a roof for the trouble.
It's also worth noting that the initial stadium proposals in 2023 (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/) had proposed bundling Lot J into the renovations, and that at least would have been a $75-100 million city investment in a $500-668 million project, but with (seemingly) no community benefits agreement and a larger share paid on the stadium itself, while also expecting to bundle the UF campus into it. I really hesitate to say that either that or taking the deal in 2021 would have been a better deal than where we are today. I recognize that the parking agreement and credits aren't ideal but I still think they appear to beat the reasonably likely alternatives, especially on top of resetting the overall relationship.
You mean 30%? Yeah I'd bake that in.
Concrete material alone is up 10% since they purchased their concrete & pre-fabs. By the time this is meaningfully done, there's an easy 10%-15% baked in for inflation/material increase. There a few thousand loads of dirt needed too. A month or more for just compaction easily... it's not an easy site like the Airport with infrastructure adjacent to it. It's an inevitable that a garage is put up at or near Lot J for a very strong public incentive offering because the city will be in a bind from the agreement to make it happen. It will be used with the credit negotiated with a strong private use offering.
Its obvious to see at this point that the original deal was the best deal - as they sometimes say. I agree the UF deal was not it.. but I'd strongly argue the Jags Stadium deal would have been a lot more straightforward with Lot J already completed & most importantly underway prior to the Stadium deal conversation being forced. I also don't see construction costs somehow losing pace with inflation anytime soon & I don't think I'm the only one here that would say that, especially materials required for dense housing.
^ I guess really 45%. 2,000 spaces for $92 million is $46,000 per space. 1,500 for $100 million is $66,667 per space, so a ~45% increase.
Plenty more varying possibilities to whether we had gone ahead in 2021. Maybe prices go up and Cordish asks for more incentives like with the Shipyards, maybe Khan sees it as as job well done on community benefits and we forgo the CBA, maybe it eats the funds that would have gone to incentives in the Downtown core, maybe they downscale the project again like they kept doing during negotiations and we have to fund a second phase that's really just the full initial phase, so on and so forth. That's why I note the value of saying no for making it clear to the Jaguars that we are capable of it. We've gotten multiple better deals done since, including the Miller Electric Center, Shipyards, and the stadium itself, and now this can still be one of them.
Maybe the difference here is that I'm not sure it's the end of the world that the Live! might be a few more years behind. Orleck visitors and concert-goers and game-attendees and out-of-town fans and Florida-Georgia attendees already have nothing to do there right now and would still have nothing to do for a few more years even if we had approved it. I don't think a few more will totally kill Downtown, especially when in the meantime we've made at least some progress with Downtown proper (even if NAVI has already closed for the day or is done for the weekend). That's not to say we should put it off forever or that the idea of a Live! is a bad idea, but it's also not to say that I totally buy it being the complete lynchpin to everything that we should have approved at any cost.
Which brings me back to suggesting the City just start with the garage right now. It seems like whether we did the deal or not, there needs to be more parking in that area, so what's the benefit to going to beg someone for the privilege of paying them incentives to build it? If the parking demand is already enough then the revenues from it will go great to making the apparently bitter pill of having waited go down easier.
While we are talking about cars at the Stadium, something needs to be done to improve traffic management. I have seen cars held all the way down Bay Street or at game ends, backed up in the parking lots, while JSO gives a stream of ones, twos and threes at a time up to several minutes to leisurely approach and cross the crosswalks rather than build up a large number and let them cross stampede-style in a minute or two. The game ends are the worst. I have spent over an hour waiting to exit a parking lot due to pedestrian conflicts and JSO not fairly rotating traffic movements.
One thing that should be considered if we build a garage (or not) is building some pedestrian overpasses so cars are not held up every time a handful of people straggle into the stadium lots.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 23, 2026, 07:29:44 PM
^ I guess really 45%. 2,000 spaces for $92 million is $46,000 per space. 1,500 for $100 million is $66,667 per space, so a ~45% increase.
Plenty more varying possibilities to whether we had gone ahead in 2021. Maybe prices go up and Cordish asks for more incentives like with the Shipyards, maybe Khan sees it as as job well done on community benefits and we forgo the CBA, maybe it eats the funds that would have gone to incentives in the Downtown core, maybe they downscale the project again like they kept doing during negotiations and we have to fund a second phase that's really just the full initial phase, so on and so forth. That's why I note the value of saying no for making it clear to the Jaguars that we are capable of it. We've gotten multiple better deals done since, including the Miller Electric Center, Shipyards, and the stadium itself, and now this can still be one of them.
Maybe the difference here is that I'm not sure it's the end of the world that the Live! might be a few more years behind. Orleck visitors and concert-goers and game-attendees and out-of-town fans and Florida-Georgia attendees already have nothing to do there right now and would still have nothing to do for a few more years even if we had approved it. I don't think a few more will totally kill Downtown, especially when in the meantime we've made at least some progress with Downtown proper (even if NAVI has already closed for the day or is done for the weekend). That's not to say we should put it off forever or that the idea of a Live! is a bad idea, but it's also not to say that I totally buy it being the complete lynchpin to everything that we should have approved at any cost.
Which brings me back to suggesting the City just start with the garage right now. It seems like whether we did the deal or not, there needs to be more parking in that area, so what's the benefit to going to beg someone for the privilege of paying them incentives to build it? If the parking demand is already enough then the revenues from it will go great to making the apparently bitter pill of having waited go down easier.
Yes you are right Marcus. My math was incorrect. So lets agree on $90M. There is zero meaningful change in my argument. The CBA is a distraction so that the "community" feels good about the (near) 50/50 city match when you account for NPV. There are already some serious questions about the CBA anyway but the CBA in absolutely no shape or form was a "net gain" for the city. The City would have been much better off allocating funds outside of any stadium agreement. Also the idea that these funds will help the actual residents is still a massive reach. I'm sure we will get a few very expensively produced promo videos for a handful of folks.
But here we very clearly have identified another minimum of $90M that the city is expected to take on to "solve" the parking problem they created! How fun & certainly changes the city investment figure to the "deal".
A parking garage next to the stadium will not be profitable without consistent programming & complementary uses. It is not a profitable endeavor in this context. Otherwise, the city wouldn't be losing money on virtually every parking solution it has been apart of. Jags know that otherwise they'd probably have built it already. If you take the JIA parking garage as a bit of an example, that will be used every day of the year at very good pricing. Just not achievable in a sports district without a serious buildup of retail & living.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 23, 2026, 02:45:05 PM
I can also acknowledge that we arguably got the worst Stadium Deal of the bunch.
what many continue to ignore / forget is that, unlike many others, the state won't put any $ into new stadiums / arenas.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 24, 2026, 08:31:44 AM
The CBA is a distraction so that the "community" feels good about the (near) 50/50 city match when you account for NPV. There are already some serious questions about the CBA anyway but the CBA in absolutely no shape or form was a "net gain" for the city. The City would have been much better off allocating funds outside of any stadium agreement. Also the idea that these funds will help the actual residents is still a massive reach. I'm sure we will get a few very expensively produced promo videos for a handful of folks.
Well if you don't buy that the CBA will benefit the Eastside, I don't see why I have to buy that we should have signed off on Lot J with what a mess those negotiations were, or that it was such a critical lynchpin to Downtown that it should have been approved at any cost.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 24, 2026, 08:31:44 AM
But here we very clearly have identified another minimum of $90M that the city is expected to take on to "solve" the parking problem they created! How fun & certainly changes the city investment figure to the "deal".
A parking garage next to the stadium will not be profitable without consistent programming & complementary uses. It is not a profitable endeavor in this context. Otherwise, the city wouldn't be losing money on virtually every parking solution it has been apart of. Jags know that otherwise they'd probably have built it already. If you take the JIA parking garage as a bit of an example, that will be used every day of the year at very good pricing. Just not achievable in a sports district without a serious buildup of retail & living.
Now I'm confused. Were the parking spots "badly needed" (your words (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,38371.msg535584.html#msg535584) starting this thread) or not? You're the one who brought up a parking solution for Shipyards West and MOSH. You're the one who said "I can't see a universe where the ROI isn't there for the city long-term from a parking[...] perspective." If those things are true, then there's no reason the ROI wouldn't still be there for the city taking on the parking element itself ASAP to support the whole Sports & Entertainment Complex while also facilitating a new Lot J deal to move forward (which then doesn't have to include paying incentives for someone else to build that same parking while also focusing on their own profit motive).
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 24, 2026, 10:24:49 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on January 23, 2026, 02:45:05 PM
I can also acknowledge that we arguably got the worst Stadium Deal of the bunch.
what many continue to ignore / forget is that, unlike many others, the state won't put any $ into new stadiums / arenas.
What many continue to deny / ignore / forget with our stadium deal is that there are terms in the deal outside of the just the stadium funding.
Marcus your first response is classic politics & why this city continues to lag behind the big players. The CBA is a distraction so that you don't care to understand the remaining terms of the deal. Your logic suggests that you are okay with the CBA even though it is an obvious net negative to the city compared to the idea of separating the CBA & the Stadium deals all together. So, your first statement doesn't make any sense & discredits several other points I've made up to this point about the poor finances in the deal (behind the big flashy numbers).
Your second response also makes no sense to what I am saying - Ken started this thread. The ~1,200 parking spots are *NOW* badly needed because the MOSH & Shipyards West have parking quotas per the Jaguars Stadium Agreement. That didn't exist back when Khan was proposing Lot J. Now, in 2026, there IS a parking issue that WILL occur in the next several years if all those projects develop as-is. The City WILL be in a legal obligation to fill the gap in provided parking & the city will almost certainly incentive the future project at Lot J. Which, will include a large amount of structured parking because it is more economical to build in scale AND he has the right to REMOVE parking spaces from Lot J FOR HIS OWN DEVELOPMENT.
The City will now be paying, all-in, much more than the negotiated split originally had because the City is NOW obligated to be in compliance with the agreement. The CBA is a net negative, cash wise, versus, separating that out & doing that entirely with city funds WITHOUT a mandatory parking agreement & development credits in place. The previous Lot J deal would have 100% prevented this mess the city now finds itself in.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 23, 2026, 03:38:46 PM
The Panthers deal (which is probably closer to what we could have ended up with, being a renovation and not a new stadium like everything on your list) is a lot worse than we got: $800M with an 80/20 public/private split, and not even getting a roof for the trouble.
It's also worth noting that the initial stadium proposals in 2023 (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/06/07/jacksonville-jaguars-show-plan-for-stadium-with-shade-cover/70296829007/) had proposed bundling Lot J into the renovations, and that at least would have been a $75-100 million city investment in a $500-668 million project, but with (seemingly) no community benefits agreement and a larger share paid on the stadium itself, while also expecting to bundle the UF campus into it. I really hesitate to say that either that or taking the deal in 2021 would have been a better deal than where we are today. I recognize that the parking agreement and credits aren't ideal but I still think they appear to beat the reasonably likely alternatives, especially on top of resetting the overall relationship.
Yeah, the Panthers deal and all the others are pretty clearly worse than ours. On the entertainment district, once the mayor took office we pushed for an even split for the each of stadium and the district in no small part that's because of what had happened with Lot J. It was a good thing too, as the whole deal was so complicated that the district was made separate. It was a good thing too; otherwise we'd be in a situation where we spent $900 million on a stadium to be in the same spot.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 21, 2026, 04:54:32 PM
I've been in Atlanta for the last few days, staying near the Battery. For those that don't know, the Battery is a Cordish-anchored development adjacent to the Atlanta Brave's Truist Park, very similar to what was proposed at Lot J. Seeing how vibrant the Battery is, around the clock, even months removed from the baseball season, has gotten me thinking back to Lot J again, and what it could have brought to the sports district.
It's been a minute, so to refresh memories, Lot J would have included:
- A 100,000 square foot Live! Arena with bars and restaurants.
- Two midrise apartment blocks with of 350-400 units
- A 120-room hotel
- 35,000 square feet of office space
- 75,000 square feet of additional retail
- 1,200 (badly needed) parking spots, 600 of which were structured garage
Here's a flyover of what the final proposal looked like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfXQvr4QsJg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfXQvr4QsJg)
I'll spare the intricate details of the financing and the controversial "bread box loan," but all in, the city of Jacksonville would have been responsible for $233 million of the $450 million project, which Cordish and the Jags would fully operate and manage.
Lot J was expected to fly through City Council, with unanimous approval. It only needed a 13-6 supermajority vote to go forward; it ended up one vote short, at 12-7, after one of the uglier political seasons in recent Jacksonville history.
My opinion only, but if the exact same plan had been voted on tomorrow, away from the taint of the JEA scandal, away from the bullying of the Curry administration, away from the unwarranted fears of Jags relocation, away from hard feelings about the Landing, and away from the disastrous 2019 Jags season that left little goodwill toward the team, it would be passed unanimously.
Wondering, with five years perspective, did the city drop the ball on Lot J?
My strong opinion is yes, we did. At the time, I thought it was a sweetheart deal for the Jags, but a necessary evil given the need for a sports & entertainment district to anchor the sports complex. Five years later, I think it might have been one of the bigger missed opportunities in city history.
For $233 million - a lot of money, no doubt - the city could have had a turnkey destination to bring the entire sports district to life. Cordish has a strong track record of bringing in and retaining quality tenants, and programming the Live! district to ensure 365 day a year vibrancy. By this time next year, construction would have been complete, and along with the new stadium, we'd have an event district ready to go to attract festivals, large sports events, and concerts. It wouldn't have been competitive with the downtown core, but additive (no one is walking out of a concert at the sports complex and heading to Laura Street for a drink), and would have sparked additional development as it rose. Further, it would have provided a parking solution across Bay Street for Shipyards West and MOSH.
Thrilled with all the new development, but we are standing up a $2 billion+ sports district right now with no complementing infrastructure to draw events or boost return. A 120-room Four Seasons and high-end restaurant are not a solution, and we're hanging that whole district, and all that investment, out to dry if we're relying on food trucks at Met Park and some small restaurants facing the river across Bay Street to provide pre and post game vibrancy.
Unpopular opinion, but I'd re-engage both the Jags and Cordish, under the new administration, to see if there was an avenue to reopen Lot J talks. It's in everyone's best interest to get moving on this fast. I can't see a universe where the ROI isn't there for the city long-term from a parking, festival, event, and vibrancy perspective. I fear we're going to sit on a solution far too long, resulting in unending construction adjacent to the new stadium, or we're going to go too small with a scaled down development that lacks the critical mass and managed service of the original plan.
I don't disagree that the amenities would be nice to have — but the crazy way the Lot J deal was structured, there'd be a lot of other things we couldn't have paid for if we were carrying the bag on that. Stuff with more impact than a smaller but much more expensive version of the Sleiman Landing proposals.
I do think you will get an updated Lot J type proposal probably this year or next right? Surely that is still the ultimate plan.
Intuition Ale Works closing. So much for the vibrancy of the Stadium district. Until there is an infill link to a vibrant North Core, I have a hard time seeing how the Stadium district supports nightlife on its own. One possible exception might be if it hosted the convention center and then, still a big "if."
As an aside, anyone know how the Doro apartments are doing there?
QuoteIntuition Ale Works calls it quits after 15 years serving up craft suds in Jacksonville
One of Jacksonville's oldest and most visible craft breweries announced its pending closure on Jan. 28.
Intuition Ale Works owner Ben Davis posted a message to social media that the 15-year-old local brewer would shut down for good on April 24. This follows an unsuccessful nine-month search by Davis to sell Intuition's tap room, production facility and adjacent Bier Hall entertainment venue.
The brewery, originally launched at the former King Street Brewery location in Riverside, moved downtown in 2016 after outgrowing its original location. The closure will mean the loss of a significant downtown Jacksonville destination and continues a significant decline of small breweries in Northeast Florida....
....Davis posted that the team "examined every realistic path forward, hoping the right buyer would emerge with the resources and conviction to carry the brand into its next chapter," but "the right buyer never came."....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/01/28/intuition-closing.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_BN&j=43788826&senddate=2026-01-28 (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2026/01/28/intuition-closing.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_BN&j=43788826&senddate=2026-01-28)
Ben Davis called out flashy renderings without anything to show for it as part of the reason they are shutting down.
The importance of clustering and complimentary uses can't be overstated. Islands of activity are just hard to sustain.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 28, 2026, 10:00:52 AM
I do think you will get an updated Lot J type proposal probably this year or next right? Surely that is still the ultimate plan.
I don't have any specifics on the time frame, unfortunately, but I can confirm it's something both sides do want it to happen.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 12:45:27 PM
As an aside, anyone know how the Doro apartments are doing there?
The final legislation for Doro passed City Council on 1-13-2025 so it'll be moving forward again soon.
Sucks that Intuition is closing. That space will sit empty for a while.
I am sure Dailys Place being closed for 2.5 years, no FL-GA game for two years, no Jaguars home games for nearly two years is not appealing for anyone looking at that space.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 28, 2026, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 12:45:27 PM
As an aside, anyone know how the Doro apartments are doing there?
The final legislation for Doro passed City Council on 1-13-2025 so it'll be moving forward again soon.
ActionNews had a story tonight commemorating the 2nd anniversary of the Doro fire (it does not seem to be on their website). In the story, they said tenants will be moving in in early February. Now, I don't know if they were confused as 'early February' was when people were supposed to move in pre-fire ...
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2026, 06:52:23 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 28, 2026, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 12:45:27 PM
As an aside, anyone know how the Doro apartments are doing there?
The final legislation for Doro passed City Council on 1-13-2025 so it'll be moving forward again soon.
ActionNews had a story tonight commemorating the 2nd anniversary of the Doro fire (it does not seem to be on their website). In the story, they said tenants will be moving in in early February. Now, I don't know if they were confused as 'early February' was when people were supposed to move in pre-fire ...
Doro is largely done, minus some fit and finish.
Residents begin moving in on Feb 6th.
Well, they won't be frequenting Intuition....
Quote from: Ken_FSU on January 28, 2026, 07:02:18 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2026, 06:52:23 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 28, 2026, 05:26:14 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 12:45:27 PM
As an aside, anyone know how the Doro apartments are doing there?
The final legislation for Doro passed City Council on 1-13-2025 so it'll be moving forward again soon.
ActionNews had a story tonight commemorating the 2nd anniversary of the Doro fire (it does not seem to be on their website). In the story, they said tenants will be moving in in early February. Now, I don't know if they were confused as 'early February' was when people were supposed to move in pre-fire ...
Doro is largely done, minus some fit and finish.
Residents begin moving in on Feb 6th.
So, how fast are they renting up? Ahead, behind, about on target for projections? Apartment market is generally soft right now. How can the Doro compete with so many, in my opinion, better options? Gateway, by itself, would top this if rents are competitive. Southbank/San Marco, Brooklyn/Riverside... endless possibilities.
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent? As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either. I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic. (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 09:10:03 PM
<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent? As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either. I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic. (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)
Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else! [CH removes tongue from cheek]
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2026, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 09:10:03 PM
<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent? As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either. I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic. (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)
Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else! [CH removes tongue from cheek]
Its close to all the venues on Bay Street, Manifest, arena, ball park, riverfront parks, and all the typical stuff people would move to Downtown Jax for.
It appears as if Rise has only leased 2 of the 98 units available for move in on February 6th and 4 of the 127 units available on May 1st. They are offering 2 free months rent and a $1k credit. It looks like COJ is giving them a CO/TCO for the units wrapped around the garage for February 6th move in with an expected completion/CO of the rest for a May 1st move in. Or maybe that is just a leasing strategy.
You can see the available units here:
https://risedoro.com/siteplan/
And residents won't even have Intuition Ale Works anymore...
Really pathetic if true. I know we have talked about the fire and how it ultimately delayed the apartments 2+ years and how that could have potentially resulted in better leasing percentage...looks like that wasn't enough time.
And it's hard for me to imagine that Four Seasons or an office building are going to change that calculus at all.
Quote from: fsu813 on January 28, 2026, 11:56:59 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2026, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 09:10:03 PM
<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent? As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either. I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic. (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)
Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else! [CH removes tongue from cheek]
Its close to all the venues on Bay Street, Manifest, arena, ball park, riverfront parks, and all the typical stuff people would move to Downtown Jax for.
Unless you party and drink all night, other than the riverfront parks*, I don't see who would care to live in this spot. And, you can party and drink at least as much, or more, at Town Center or the Beaches. For that matter, St. Augustine and Fernandina, too, with a lot more buzz, charm and ambiance. And, who would want to walk at night from here to Bay Street. I would say take U2C but it doesn't run at night ;D. Oh, darn!
Location, location, location. This isn't it.
*I do like your highlight of riverfront parks as a Downtown living attraction. This is why I have consistently advocated for more and larger such parks as they are the #1 amenity I believe makes Downtown an attractive living option. The ability to walk to the river or other green spots surrounding your residence, to enjoy food and other amenities, entertainment, events in, on or about such green spots... that epitomizes urban living to me. The vibrancy of large numbers of people mingling in and enjoying the outdoors is hard to match. Just look at Central Park or any other robust urban park system. "Giving away" such public lands to developers, to me, is counterproductive to the longterm health and development of Downtown.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 29, 2026, 11:24:22 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on January 28, 2026, 11:56:59 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 28, 2026, 09:31:48 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 28, 2026, 09:10:03 PM
<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent? As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either. I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic. (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)
Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else! [CH removes tongue from cheek]
Its close to all the venues on Bay Street, Manifest, arena, ball park, riverfront parks, and all the typical stuff people would move to Downtown Jax for.
Unless you party and drink all night, other than the riverfront parks*, I don't see who would care to live in this spot. And, you can party and drink at least as much, or more, at Town Center or the Beaches. For that matter, St. Augustine and Fernandina, too, with a lot more buzz, charm and ambiance. And, who would want to walk at night from here to Bay Street. I would say take U2C but it doesn't run at night ;D. Oh, darn!
Location, location, location. This isn't it.
*I do like your highlight of riverfront parks as a Downtown living attraction. This is why I have consistently advocated for more and larger such parks as they are the #1 amenity I believe makes Downtown an attractive living option. The ability to walk to the river or other green spots surrounding your residence, to enjoy food and other amenities, entertainment, events in, on or about such green spots... that epitomizes urban living to me. The vibrancy of large numbers of people mingling in and enjoying the outdoors is hard to match. Just look at Central Park or any other robust urban park system. "Giving away" such public lands to developers, to me, is counterproductive to the longterm health and development of Downtown.
RISE Doro will lease up just fine. A bit slow probably, but most lease-ups are slow right now mostly due to the general state of the market in Florida. The Union Terminal is in arguably a worse location with similar rents and is 73% leased a year after starting their lease up. As someone who works in the Downtown residential sector, most of the people that move here are not considering moving to Town Center or the Beaches and certainly not St Augustine or Fernandina. There is certainly a market for this product and it may not appeal to you but every city has different housing options and Jax should be no different
RISE Doro will lease up just fine. A bit slow probably, but most lease-ups are slow right now mostly due to the general state of the market in Florida. The Union Terminal is in arguably a worse location with similar rents and is 73% leased a year after starting their lease up. As someone who works in the Downtown residential sector, most of the people that move here are not considering moving to Town Center or the Beaches and certainly not St Augustine or Fernandina. There is certainly a market for this product and it may not appeal to you but every city has different housing options and Jax should be no different
[/quote]
I hope so. I think its a pretty good location if you work on the other side of the river (Arlington, University Ave, Memorial Hospital) and you want something new. Easy access over the both bridges and you are going against traffic both to and from work and (as opposed to the traffic you get living on Southside, JTB, Town Center and the like).
The Rays and Tampa (with an assist from the Governor) just announced that they will soon enter negotiations for a new $2.3 Billion Rays ballpark + mixed-use sports & entertainment district, challenging the notion that stadium + mixed-use district can't be negotiated concurrently. With the qualifier that the numbers are always a little fluffy, estimated economic impact is 10 million visitors annually, $34 billion in overall impact from transforming the space into a premier event destination.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/tampa-bay-rays-renderings-proposed-stadium-hillsborough-college
Almost two years after reaching terms on our new stadium, we've got no supporting infrastructure in the plans to catalyze the largest investment in city history.
We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations. When the stadium will already be closing. When Intuition has packed up shop. Before the Four Seasons opens. Before Met Park & Shipyards West are done. Before MOSH rebuilds. While Daily's Place is closed for two years. Broken record, but we're so far behind on the key piece necessary to turn this area into an economic engine for the city. What events are we going to attract to the new stadium and sports district, and what festivals are we going to attract to a rebuilt Met Park when quite literally there are almost zero amenities nearby.
I know there's no chance of Orlando keeping our beloved Jags, but, there's so much going on and so much more to offer in the Orlando area. Stranger things have happened; however, Shad Khan is "locked in" so to speak to Jacksonville and he is not going anywhere or leaving at least anytime soon. With this 1 billion plus new stadium being built, and the commitment signed and sealed, and construction already started, these alone keeps him and the Jags in Jax. But this is a weird world, and anything can happen. Our leaders, DIA, Jags Executives/White Shirts, really need to get together to propose, plan, and put in work the supporting infrastructure and other amenities, etc. to not only have a lot to do on game days for fans and citizens of our area, but also to have a super hot "fire" destination during off season when there are no games.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 05, 2026, 03:36:00 PM
We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations.
Ken, I agree with this sentiment of yours wholeheartedly -- but I am still happy the Lot J deal from 5 years ago didn't materialize. Multiple things can be (and, IMO, were) true at the same time:
1) The sports district desperately needed an entertainment concept to complement future (now current) development;
2) The city will be required to assist with the economics;
3) Live! is a proven concept, a known commodity, and Cordish is capable of effectively executing;
4) The projected costs seemed wildly unreasonable relative to the level of the development even before value engineering; and
5) Cordish, for whatever reason, did not appear to be forthcoming or transparent with the economics.
We were very, very close to holding our nose and signing up for a deal where everybody knew something felt "off." I for one am happy the city had the funding available to greenlight Gateway years later and, with that well underway, if capacity still exists for a Lot J-type development, I would be all for it. But even with the benefit of hindsight, I still believe walking away 5 years ago was the right thing to do -- especially because Council didn't foreclose the possibility of a revised deal. They just didn't accept the deal as proposed.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 05, 2026, 03:36:00 PM
The Rays and Tampa (with an assist from the Governor) just announced that they will soon enter negotiations for a new $2.3 Billion Rays ballpark + mixed-use sports & entertainment district, challenging the notion that stadium + mixed-use district can't be negotiated concurrently. With the qualifier that the numbers are always a little fluffy, estimated economic impact is 10 million visitors annually, $34 billion in overall impact from transforming the space into a premier event destination.
https://www.fox13news.com/news/tampa-bay-rays-renderings-proposed-stadium-hillsborough-college
Almost two years after reaching terms on our new stadium, we've got no supporting infrastructure in the plans to catalyze the largest investment in city history.
We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations. When the stadium will already be closing. When Intuition has packed up shop. Before the Four Seasons opens. Before Met Park & Shipyards West are done. Before MOSH rebuilds. While Daily's Place is closed for two years. Broken record, but we're so far behind on the key piece necessary to turn this area into an economic engine for the city. What events are we going to attract to the new stadium and sports district, and what festivals are we going to attract to a rebuilt Met Park when quite literally there are almost zero amenities nearby.
I looked at Google Maps to see exactly where this development was planned for. This is apples and oranges with our stadium set up.
First, this is directly across the street from Raymond James Stadium and on the same large block as the Steinbrenner Stadium complex for the NY Yankees. So serving 3 major league facilities, not one. It is also on a community college campus with 45,000 students per the article which will likely provide a base level of attendance and youthful energy. It is less than 1.5 miles from both a I-275 exit and Tampa International Airport putting it much closer to the travel paths of millions of vehicles. By car, it appears to be a good 5 miles from Downtown Tampa so it won't be close enough to overlap with its downtown offerings or to detract from them. Within 2 or 3 miles, there appear to be thousands of houses. Lastly, Tampa has way more tourists visiting than Jacksonville that are looking for fun things to do .
Like before, Jax isn't Tampa. It isn't Atlanta. It isn't Orlando or Miami or Charlotte. We don't have their populations, tourists, robust and large enough true downtown, etc. to pull this off at this time. If Khan moved forward with a new "Lot J" you can bet he would hedge his bets greatly with a huge incentive from the taxpayers given the risks of success and it will be deja vu with the first round.
^Different markets indeed but I did notice the state is giving away free land. Thats a hell of a deal, considering the location of this property. I was previously under the impression that the state did not get involved in stadium deals.
It depends who you are. Zalupski and DeSantis are bros.
Well the whole point is that these deals happen better together. Sorry but I don't see the City of Jacksonville (or most cities for that matter) out negotiating Shad Khan & his team. Yes we can identify the differences between every stadium deal if we want, but the basics remain the same... the current agreement added items that will benefit the Iguana team in the long run. Other deals take all of this into account up front - primarily with infrastructure. Which, btw, arguably has the biggest impact on localized values.
The state giving up land =/= throwing cash at a deal. Apples & Oranges for a conversation of this depth.