Lot J - 5 Years Later

[Ken_FSU]

I've been in Atlanta for the last few days, staying near the Battery. For those that don't know, the Battery is a Cordish-anchored development adjacent to the Atlanta Brave's Truist Park, very similar to what was proposed at Lot J. Seeing how vibrant the Battery is, around the clock, even months removed from the baseball season, has gotten me thinking back to Lot J again, and what it could have brought to the sports district.

It's been a minute, so to refresh memories, Lot J would have included:

- A 100,000 square foot Live! Arena with bars and restaurants.
- Two midrise apartment blocks with of 350-400 units
- A 120-room hotel
- 35,000 square feet of office space
- 75,000 square feet of additional retail
- 1,200 (badly needed) parking spots, 600 of which were structured garage

Here's a flyover of what the final proposal looked like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfXQvr4QsJg

I'll spare the intricate details of the financing and the controversial "bread box loan," but all in, the city of Jacksonville would have been responsible for $233 million of the $450 million project, which Cordish and the Jags would fully operate and manage.

Lot J was expected to fly through City Council, with unanimous approval. It only needed a 13-6 supermajority vote to go forward; it ended up one vote short, at 12-7, after one of the uglier political seasons in recent Jacksonville history.

My opinion only, but if the exact same plan had been voted on tomorrow, away from the taint of the JEA scandal, away from the bullying of the Curry administration, away from the unwarranted fears of Jags relocation, away from hard feelings about the Landing, and away from the disastrous 2019 Jags season that left little goodwill toward the team, it would be passed unanimously.

Wondering, with five years perspective, did the city drop the ball on Lot J?

My strong opinion is yes, we did. At the time, I thought it was a sweetheart deal for the Jags, but a necessary evil given the need for a sports & entertainment district to anchor the sports complex. Five years later, I think it might have been one of the bigger missed opportunities in city history.

For $233 million - a lot of money, no doubt - the city could have had a turnkey destination to bring the entire sports district to life. Cordish has a strong track record of bringing in and retaining quality tenants, and programming the Live! district to ensure 365 day a year vibrancy. By this time next year, construction would have been complete, and along with the new stadium, we'd have an event district ready to go to attract festivals, large sports events, and concerts. It wouldn't have been competitive with the downtown core, but additive (no one is walking out of a concert at the sports complex and heading to Laura Street for a drink), and would have sparked additional development as it rose. Further, it would have provided a parking solution across Bay Street for Shipyards West and MOSH.

Thrilled with all the new development, but we are standing up a $2 billion+ sports district right now with no complementing infrastructure to draw events or boost return. A 120-room Four Seasons and high-end restaurant are not a solution, and we're hanging that whole district, and all that investment, out to dry if we're relying on food trucks at Met Park and some small restaurants facing the river across Bay Street to provide pre and post game vibrancy.

Unpopular opinion, but I'd re-engage both the Jags and Cordish, under the new administration, to see if there was an avenue to reopen Lot J talks. It's in everyone's best interest to get moving on this fast. I can't see a universe where the ROI isn't there for the city long-term from a parking, festival, event, and vibrancy perspective. I fear we're going to sit on a solution far too long, resulting in unending construction adjacent to the new stadium, or we're going to go too small with a scaled down development that lacks the critical mass and managed service of the original plan.

[marcuscnelson]

Interesting to see this up. Wild to realize it's been so long already.

I do see your points, but in hindsight I still think we made the right call. We ultimately got a very good deal on actually locking down the team and renovating the stadium, especially compared to what many other cities have gotten. It was valuable to reset the relationship between the city and the team, and make it clear that while we strongly desire our NFL team, that doesn't mean we give away the farm when they lift a finger. It certainly doesn't help how badly the plans shrank from their original promises, or the way in which they did very much attempt to use the JEA headquarters project as additional public sector incentives.

Now we've secured the stadium, the Shipyards is a real known factor, we have more tangible thinking surrounding the site with Shipyards West Park and MOSH and Met Park, the Fairgrounds is now potentially also part of the conversation, and it's been long enough to have resolved those divides and clearly think through the plan and its financing given post-pandemic realities. It's very unfortunate that we simply don't have a real transit plan for moving those hundreds and thousands of people around there, but at least now we know that.

I'm cautiously open to seeing what Cordish might be interested in, although I think it would behoove the city to do full due diligence on the site first (and I'd even go so far as to suggest doing some of the initial site work to facilitate the plaza and blocks where the various uses might go) and encourage better setting of expectations. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of hotel, retail, and office were to shift given the market shifts since the original proposal. Maybe a larger hotel with some meeting space and more housing since the office uses have moved to the Shipyards (and convention center talks have gone nowhere), or better interaction with Daily's Place since the training functions there have moved to Miller Electric Center. Perhaps there's some way to more holistically think about developing the whole S&E district. There are potentially real benefits to having this conversation in a very different context than five years ago, and those should absolutely be leveraged.

[jaxlongtimer]

I think Lot J was well before its time.  If the City put $233 million toward that, I think it would have been harder for the City to incentivize/contribute to Gateway, the Stadium renovation, MOSH, Four Seasons, Emerald Trail, etc.  It only has so much money to give away.  While I am not a fan of the City incentivizing these (other than the Trail) and other projects to the extent they do, given that the City did, I think it got a lot more bang for its buck than from Lot J.

Further, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away.  Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."

I also think a lot of people in Jax are growing weary of subsidizing so many Khan projects given his resources and the huge sums he manages to extract from the City.  And, now that Khan owns the Fairgrounds, maybe he comes back with a whole new plan and it is a blessing for all that Lot J failed in the end.  I still think the lack of his personal efforts to pitch Lot J indicates he had second thoughts about it or was at least not willing to fall on his sword over it.  Thus, he wasn't overly concerned if it failed, maybe even happy to get out from it while "saving face."

[Ken_FSU]

Random photo dump from the Battery area. A lot of these are from a Sunday morning at 9:30 AM, in 29 degree weather, before the Battery opened, if you're wondering where the people are. But gives a good idea of what Lot J would have looked like, with mid-rise residential, ground floor retail, the Live! venue, hotel, etc.

[heights unknown]

Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.

[Ken_FSU]

I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of hotel, retail, and office were to shift given the market shifts since the original proposal. Maybe a larger hotel with some meeting space and more housing since the office uses have moved to the Shipyards (and convention center talks have gone nowhere), or better interaction with Daily's Place since the training functions there have moved to Miller Electric Center.

RE: Meeting Space. The Cobb Galleria (Cobb County's Convention Center) is a short five-minute walk to the Battery. It's not a huge convention center like others in Atlanta (though it is slightly larger than the Prime Osborne), but it's definitely a nice complimenting use to feed visitors into the Battery.

Further, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away.  Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."

Respectfully disagree on this point. I think the Pearl District and something like a Lot J serve completely different audiences that aren't necessarily competitive. The Gateway folks are essentially standing up a whole new high-end neighborhood, tailored to residents, downtown workers, UF staff and students, and adjacent neighborhoods. Lot J's activity zone would primarily exist to serve the millions of people who come to the sports complex each year for Jags, Shrimp, and Icemen games, concerts, festivals, etc. We've got four major venues (Daily's Place, Everbank Field, VyStar Arena, and the Baseball Grounds) collectively holding hundreds of events a year. These visitors are people who are going to park once, and either stay to hang out at Lot J, or go home. They're very unlikely to drive two miles and park again. I genuinely think it's vital to the success of all of these investments that we're making on that side of downtown. The Four Seasons, Met Park, MOSH, and Shipyards West are far less attractive destinations in a vacuum, with no supporting infrastructure. There's nothing for these people to do in the area once they leave. I honestly don't even know if a single daytime restaurant exists within walking distance of the sports complex at the moment. This is a huge problem, in my opinion, handicapping our ability to draw in large events and perpetuating the belief to visitors that downtown Jacksonville is lifeless and dull.

Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.

Cobb County, technically! Northwest of the city, by the Braves' new(ish) ballpark.

[jaxlongtimer]

Respectfully, I don't think Jax is ready for comparisons to Atlanta.  We have a very long way to go there. 

As to supporting more activity at the Sports Complex here, it's why I think the convention center should be added to that area.  Then, maybe a Lot J style development makes more sense.

We want Gateway, Laura Street, Bay Street/Hyatt, Southbank, LaVilla and Stadium District all at once.  This lack of focus is what I think has held back the whole area.  We need to start with one successful area and radiate out from there.  Jax just doesn't have the demographics at this time to be all things to all people.  Patience, focus and long term planning... not Jax's strong points and the results show.

[Ken_FSU]

Respectfully, I don't think Jax is ready for comparisons to Atlanta.  We have a very long way to go there.

Fully agree, though I honestly don't consider Truist Park or the Battery to be Atlanta proper. In traffic, it's at least 35-45 minutes away from Midtown in Cobb County. But I get your point.

As to supporting more activity at the Sports Complex here, it's why I think the convention center should be added to that area.  Then, maybe a Lot J style development makes more sense.

Railroading of the Ford on Bay Convention Center RFP aside, I actually quite liked the location that the Jags proposed, directly beside where the MOSH ended up. If we had money to build a brand new convention center from the ground up, this would probably be my preferred destination. The river views make it far more attractive for events than the jail location once Berkman 2 is finally redeveloped. Could hopefully share parking infrastructure with the stadium during the week as well.

We want Gateway, Laura Street, Bay Street/Hyatt, Southbank, LaVilla and Stadium District all at once.  This lack of focus is what I think has held back the whole area.  We need to start with one successful area and radiate out from there.  Jax just doesn't have the demographics at this time to be all things to all people.  Patience, focus and long term planning... not Jax's strong points and the results show.

Agree with you here as well on the need to master plan and prioritize. If it was me, I'd let the Southbank fend for itself for now. Let the hospitals build their own hotels. Let the luxury apartment developers cover their own costs. They're not bad projects, but they don't fit with our short-term priorities and don't complement the heavy investments that we've already made in LaVilla with UF, the northbank with Gateway and Laura Street, and the stadium district with all the things ($2 billion in new investment). But again, if we had a master plan, with roadmap, we wouldn't be two handsome fellas picking a convention center location out of a hat at 12:30 AM on a Thursday 

[tufsu1]

Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.

no - this is the suburbs - outside the Perimeter (I-285).

As to comparison with Lot J - totally not relevant.

I suggest taking a look at other Cordish Live projects that tend to sit empty when there isn't an event (Xfinity Live in Philly). Also don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!

[fieldafm]

Two things can be true:
1- Its time to re-engage about Lot J, and the quicker the better given the current stadium construction schedule
2- The original Lot J proposal was simply a bad deal for taxpayers. I sincerely think the Jaguars learned a hard lesson about the way that previous deal was approached.

[Ken_FSU]

Wow. That's downtown Atlanta? (or at least a section of it). I'm jealous.

no - this is the suburbs - outside the Perimeter (I-285).

As to comparison with Lot J - totally not relevant.

I suggest taking a look at other Cordish Live projects that tend to sit empty when there isn't an event (Xfinity Live in Philly). Also don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!

If the Battery is an irrelevant comparison, Xfinity Live! is even worse. Xfinity Live! is a standalone entertainment complex, sitting in a sea of asphalt, surrounded by highways. There's nothing remotely mixed use or pedestrian friendly about it, and it complements no other investment in the area outside of the sports venues.

Would also point out that it can't be doing too bad, as a new $20 million naming rights deal for the venue was just signed, and Cordish is building a $15 million expansion of the Live! venue.  Additionally, as we saw with the Jacksonville Landing, a few big events a year (ex. Florida/Georgia weekend) can result in business viability even during slower event seasons.



Lot J is right off the riverwalk, in a reasonably pedestrian-friendly area, directly adjacent to an insane amount of recent public investment:

Hart Bridge Ramp Removals ($39 million, specifically to make way for Lot J)
Everbank Field ($750 million)
Daily's Place Flex Field Conversion ($4 million)
121 Financial Ballpark ($32 million in recent upgrades)
Miller Electric Center ($60 million)
The Doro ($15 million)

Directly across Bay Street, to support Lot J, you've got:
Met Park rebuild ($13 million budgeted)
Four Seasons/Shipyards + Marina ($130 million)
Parcel directly adjacent to the Shipyards/Potential Medical Center (Jags are obligated to develop under the CBA; city funding TBD)
MOSH ($50 million + land)
Shipyards West Park ($93 million)



By my count, that's around $1.2 billion in public money, almost all from the general fund, spent to build up a sports, park/recreation, luxury hotel, and museum district. Total investment, including private dollars, brings total new development in this area to a staggering $2.5 billion.

Let's be realistic. We have no feasible transportation solution to move anyone in mass from the sports & entertainment district into the CBD. And even if we did, the CBA is years behind a sports district that is already fully-funded. And even if it wasn't, someone parking once at the sports district is highly unlikely to Uber to Pearl Street and back.

Which leads to the same questions I've had for five years, and my deep concern here:

Where is someone staying at the Four Season at $400 a night going to walk for entertainment?
Where are festival attendees at a rebuilt Met Park going for food and a break from the sun, and where are they staying nearby?
Where are boaters at the new marina walking for drinks?
Where are MOSH or Orleck visitors getting lunch?
Where are concert-goers or game-attendees going for dinner after the game to avoid sitting in traffic?
Where are out-of-town fans visiting for a Jags game hanging out?
Where are families going after spending the morning at Shipyards West park?
Where are medical tourists at the proposed Sports & Medicine facility hanging out while their families are getting treatment?
Where is everyone parking to visit all these new and improved venues?
What are Florida/Georgia attendees congregating and spending fistfuls of money now that the Landing is gone?

Lot J answered all of those questions, and satisfied the DIA's goal of park once and stay. It added a hotel for event attendees and mixed-use residential, to add 365 day vibrancy, even on non-game days. It added 1,200 parking spaces, available to the public and easily walkable to anywhere in the district. It added a boatload of fully managed, stable retail, dining, and entertainment to support all of these facilities.

To me, a Lot J type development is the glue/anchor that brings this entire area together and turns it into a true unified sports & entertainment district that raises quality of life in the city and makes us competitive for attracting events and conferences, versus a series of isolated investments. It's the difference between a vibrant 16-hour a day district year-round, versus a $2.5 billion district that's dead by 5 PM and that people just use as a parking lot to do one thing.

Not an either/or with the CBD, to me, there's room for both, as they serve different audiences. I just can't fathom why these talks aren't happening faster. That whole area is set to be completed in time for the 2028 season. Might as well finish the job now, set everyone up for success, and prevent our shiny new sports district from becoming a construction zone again a few years down the line. Even if the tradeoff is saying no to Southbank projects or adding surcharges within the Sports & Entertainment district to offset some of the costs.

I love Cordish because it's turnkey, and they've got a proven formula that works. There are no city RFPs. There are no short-term leases or vacant storefronts. There are no individual REV grants to negotiate. It's one deal. And one operator incentivized to create a cohesive, vibrant mix.

Also don't forget that it seemed very likely that the City was being asked to pay for 100% of the project - was a terrible deal for taxpayers!

This is completely untrue. Was it a great deal for taxpayers? Probably not. Was the city being asked to pay 100% of the project? Absolutely not. The city's $230ish million covered site remediation, relocation of the Lot J retention pond, parking & pedestrian infrastructure, and half of the cost of the Live! entertainment complex. The Jags/Cordish were putting up hundreds of millions in private capital for two residential buildings, office space, the other half of the the Live! venue, retail build-out, and a hotel.

To Marcus's point earlier, I do think there was net positive with how the original plan crashed and burned. The Jags learned so much from that experience, and why it failed (secrecy, lack of public engagement, unnecessary threats, aligning too closely with an unpopular mayor, etc.) which ultimately led to one of the smoothest and fairest stadium agreements out there.

[marcuscnelson]

^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.

Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.

[Ken_FSU]

^ Those are all good questions. There are a lot of logistical issues regarding how we as a city have thought about this area. Especially with MOSH and parking needs. At the same time, I would not be surprised if Cordish trying to revive that project as-is-ish given post-pandemic inflation and whatnot means that it's somehow $600 million or more to build. That doesn't mean not doing it, but maybe questioning how we do it.

Here's a thought:
What if, right now, itself, the City decided to do the retention pond parking garage. Deal with the antenna anchors, relocate the retention pond, and build a... I dunno, 1500-or-so-space garage, perhaps with retail space on the ground. That gives you extra parking for the stadiums, arena, and MOSH, possibly some early space for bars, I guess in theory could integrate with NAVI (not that it'll matter), and most importantly gives us the flexibility to reposition Lot J with no worries about parking availability in the meantime. If there's so much parking demand anyway, then that means revenue we can then turn towards the site work and incentives for a new Lot J development. And then the development itself won't have to worry about integrating parking directly into it because it'll be right there. Surely this city is capable of building one parking garage, right? It pains me because I am a big fan of transit but obviously our transit agency has soiled that goodwill so let's at least address the parking problem.

Love this line of thinking, and I think it makes an overall Lot J deal much more palatable to the public as well if you decouple something that the city needs to build anyway (a parking solution) from the perceived "incentives" that Cordish/Iguana would receive for the project.

[thelakelander]

Been super busy with work lately, so haven't been able to keep up with all the discussions, but here's some more Battery pics. My son attended college nearby the past few years and we've stopped through here occasionally to watch UM, Dolphins and Jags games.









In general, I think the outcome of this type of development in our Sports District back then verses what's in Atlanta's suburban version of Jax's  Southside would be quite different. Different markets altogether. Spending a lot of time in Atlanta over the last few years, its the same thing with the BeltLine and the Emerald Trail. The BeltLine is full of people. The LaVilla Link and S-Line Urban Greenway.....not so much.

[thelakelander]

I think Lot J was well before its time.  If the City put $233 million toward that, I think it would have been harder for the City to incentivize/contribute to Gateway, the Stadium renovation, MOSH, Four Seasons, Emerald Trail, etc.  It only has so much money to give away.  While I am not a fan of the City incentivizing these (other than the Trail) and other projects to the extent they do, given that the City did, I think it got a lot more bang for its buck than from Lot J.

Further, I think Lot J would only further detract from the North Core or at least delay for many more years investment there given it would be creating a whole new "activity zone" a couple of miles or so away.  Jax still isn't ready, IMO, to support more than one major activity center "downtown."

I also think a lot of people in Jax are growing weary of subsidizing so many Khan projects given his resources and the huge sums he manages to extract from the City.  And, now that Khan owns the Fairgrounds, maybe he comes back with a whole new plan and it is a blessing for all that Lot J failed in the end.  I still think the lack of his personal efforts to pitch Lot J indicates he had second thoughts about it or was at least not willing to fall on his sword over it.  Thus, he wasn't overly concerned if it failed, maybe even happy to get out from it while "saving face."

Eventually some form of a Lot J will come. It may be another decade before you are able to pay for an overpriced beer there though. In the meantime, I hope that the Eastside groups can take advantage of the CBA to position APR as a district full of businesses, restaurants, etc. catering to crowds in the Sports & Entertainment District.