Lot J - 5 Years Later

[CityLife]

It appears as if Rise has only leased 2 of the 98 units available for move in on February 6th and 4 of the 127 units available on May 1st. They are offering 2 free months rent and a $1k credit. It looks like COJ is giving them a CO/TCO for the units wrapped around the garage for February 6th move in with an expected completion/CO of the rest for a May 1st move in. Or maybe that is just a leasing strategy.

You can see the available units here:

https://risedoro.com/siteplan/

[Jankelope]

And residents won't even have Intuition Ale Works anymore...

Really pathetic if true. I know we have talked about the fire and how it ultimately delayed the apartments 2+ years and how that could have potentially resulted in better leasing percentage...looks like that wasn't enough time.

And it's hard for me to imagine that Four Seasons or an office building are going to change that calculus at all.

[jaxlongtimer]

<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent?  As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either.  I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic.  (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)

Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else!   [CH removes tongue from cheek]

Its close to all the venues on Bay Street, Manifest, arena, ball park, riverfront parks, and all the typical stuff people would move to Downtown Jax for.

Unless you party and drink all night, other than the riverfront parks*, I don't see who would care to live in this spot.  And, you can party and drink at least as much, or more, at Town Center or the Beaches.  For that matter, St. Augustine and Fernandina, too, with a lot more buzz, charm and ambiance.  And, who would want to walk at night from here to Bay Street.  I would say take U2C but it doesn't run at night  .  Oh, darn!

Location, location, location.  This isn't it.

*I do like your highlight of riverfront parks as a Downtown living attraction.  This is why I have consistently advocated for more and larger such parks as they are the #1 amenity I believe makes Downtown an attractive living option.  The ability to walk to the river or other green spots surrounding your residence, to enjoy food and other amenities, entertainment, events in, on or about such green spots... that epitomizes urban living to me.  The vibrancy of large numbers of people mingling in and enjoying the outdoors is hard to match.  Just look at Central Park or any other robust urban park system.  "Giving away" such public lands to developers, to me, is counterproductive to the longterm health and development of Downtown.

[Zac T]

<<snip>>
As noted, with the Stadium, Daily's, Mosh, Intuition, etc. being down and out for the foreseeable future, what's the attraction for living in that spot and to pay a premium rent?  As noted before, the window view of the multistory garage isn't ideal either.  I can't imagine going out for an errand or date, fighting stadium or arena traffic.  (Would have to post an event schedule on the refrigerator door to keep up with that.)

Simple, everyone living in Doro will attend each and every event held at the Sports Complex venues. There will be no need for them to go anywhere else!   [CH removes tongue from cheek]

Its close to all the venues on Bay Street, Manifest, arena, ball park, riverfront parks, and all the typical stuff people would move to Downtown Jax for.

Unless you party and drink all night, other than the riverfront parks*, I don't see who would care to live in this spot.  And, you can party and drink at least as much, or more, at Town Center or the Beaches.  For that matter, St. Augustine and Fernandina, too, with a lot more buzz, charm and ambiance.  And, who would want to walk at night from here to Bay Street.  I would say take U2C but it doesn't run at night  .  Oh, darn!

Location, location, location.  This isn't it.

*I do like your highlight of riverfront parks as a Downtown living attraction.  This is why I have consistently advocated for more and larger such parks as they are the #1 amenity I believe makes Downtown an attractive living option.  The ability to walk to the river or other green spots surrounding your residence, to enjoy food and other amenities, entertainment, events in, on or about such green spots... that epitomizes urban living to me.  The vibrancy of large numbers of people mingling in and enjoying the outdoors is hard to match.  Just look at Central Park or any other robust urban park system.  "Giving away" such public lands to developers, to me, is counterproductive to the longterm health and development of Downtown.

RISE Doro will lease up just fine. A bit slow probably, but most lease-ups are slow right now mostly due to the general state of the market in Florida. The Union Terminal is in arguably a worse location with similar rents and is 73% leased a year after starting their lease up. As someone who works in the Downtown residential sector, most of the people that move here are not considering moving to Town Center or the Beaches and certainly not St Augustine or Fernandina. There is certainly a market for this product and it may not appeal to you but every city has different housing options and Jax should be no different

[Papa33]

RISE Doro will lease up just fine. A bit slow probably, but most lease-ups are slow right now mostly due to the general state of the market in Florida. The Union Terminal is in arguably a worse location with similar rents and is 73% leased a year after starting their lease up. As someone who works in the Downtown residential sector, most of the people that move here are not considering moving to Town Center or the Beaches and certainly not St Augustine or Fernandina. There is certainly a market for this product and it may not appeal to you but every city has different housing options and Jax should be no different
[/quote]

I hope so.  I think its a pretty good location if you work on the other side of the river (Arlington, University Ave, Memorial Hospital) and you want something new.  Easy access over the both bridges and you are going against traffic both to and from work and (as opposed to the traffic you get living on Southside, JTB, Town Center and the like).

[Ken_FSU]

The Rays and Tampa (with an assist from the Governor) just announced that they will soon enter negotiations for a new $2.3 Billion Rays ballpark + mixed-use sports & entertainment district, challenging the notion that stadium + mixed-use district can't be negotiated concurrently. With the qualifier that the numbers are always a little fluffy, estimated economic impact is 10 million visitors annually, $34 billion in overall impact from transforming the space into a premier event destination.

https://www.fox13news.com/news/tampa-bay-rays-renderings-proposed-stadium-hillsborough-college

Almost two years after reaching terms on our new stadium, we've got no supporting infrastructure in the plans to catalyze the largest investment in city history.

We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations. When the stadium will already be closing. When Intuition has packed up shop. Before the Four Seasons opens. Before Met Park & Shipyards West are done. Before MOSH rebuilds. While Daily's Place is closed for two years. Broken record, but we're so far behind on the key piece necessary to turn this area into an economic engine for the city. What events are we going to attract to the new stadium and sports district, and what festivals are we going to attract to a rebuilt Met Park when quite literally there are almost zero amenities nearby.

[heights unknown]

I know there's no chance of Orlando keeping our beloved Jags, but, there's so much going on and so much more to offer in the Orlando area. Stranger things have happened; however, Shad Khan is "locked in" so to speak to Jacksonville and he is not going anywhere or leaving at least anytime soon. With this 1 billion plus new stadium being built, and the commitment signed and sealed, and construction already started, these alone keeps him and the Jags in Jax. But this is a weird world, and anything can happen. Our leaders, DIA, Jags Executives/White Shirts, really need to get together to propose, plan, and put in work the supporting infrastructure and other amenities, etc. to not only have a lot to do on game days for fans and citizens of our area, but also to have a super hot "fire" destination during off season when there are no games.

[jaxoNOLE]

We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations.

Ken, I agree with this sentiment of yours wholeheartedly -- but I am still happy the Lot J deal from 5 years ago didn't materialize. Multiple things can be (and, IMO, were) true at the same time:
1) The sports district desperately needed an entertainment concept to complement future (now current) development;
2) The city will be required to assist with the economics;
3) Live! is a proven concept, a known commodity, and Cordish is capable of effectively executing;
4) The projected costs seemed wildly unreasonable relative to the level of the development even before value engineering; and
5) Cordish, for whatever reason, did not appear to be forthcoming or transparent with the economics.

We were very, very close to holding our nose and signing up for a deal where everybody knew something felt "off." I for one am happy the city had the funding available to greenlight Gateway years later and, with that well underway, if capacity still exists for a Lot J-type development, I would be all for it. But even with the benefit of hindsight, I still believe walking away 5 years ago was the right thing to do -- especially because Council didn't foreclose the possibility of a revised deal. They just didn't accept the deal as proposed.

[jaxlongtimer]

The Rays and Tampa (with an assist from the Governor) just announced that they will soon enter negotiations for a new $2.3 Billion Rays ballpark + mixed-use sports & entertainment district, challenging the notion that stadium + mixed-use district can't be negotiated concurrently. With the qualifier that the numbers are always a little fluffy, estimated economic impact is 10 million visitors annually, $34 billion in overall impact from transforming the space into a premier event destination.

https://www.fox13news.com/news/tampa-bay-rays-renderings-proposed-stadium-hillsborough-college

Almost two years after reaching terms on our new stadium, we've got no supporting infrastructure in the plans to catalyze the largest investment in city history.

We need to get on this yesterday. Now's the time to start having these conversations. When the stadium will already be closing. When Intuition has packed up shop. Before the Four Seasons opens. Before Met Park & Shipyards West are done. Before MOSH rebuilds. While Daily's Place is closed for two years. Broken record, but we're so far behind on the key piece necessary to turn this area into an economic engine for the city. What events are we going to attract to the new stadium and sports district, and what festivals are we going to attract to a rebuilt Met Park when quite literally there are almost zero amenities nearby.

I looked at Google Maps to see exactly where this development was planned for.  This is apples and oranges with our stadium set up.

First, this is directly across the street from Raymond James Stadium and on the same large block as the Steinbrenner Stadium complex for the NY Yankees.  So serving 3 major league facilities, not one.  It is also on a community college campus with 45,000 students per the article which will likely provide a base level of attendance and youthful energy.  It is less than 1.5 miles from both a I-275 exit and Tampa International Airport putting it much closer to the travel paths of millions of vehicles.  By car, it appears to be a good 5 miles from Downtown Tampa so it won't be close enough to overlap with its downtown offerings or to detract from them.  Within 2 or 3 miles, there appear to be thousands of houses. Lastly, Tampa has way more tourists visiting than Jacksonville that are looking for fun things to do .

Like before, Jax isn't Tampa.  It isn't Atlanta.  It isn't Orlando or Miami or Charlotte.  We don't have their populations, tourists, robust and large enough true downtown, etc. to pull this off at this time.  If Khan moved forward with a new "Lot J" you can bet he would hedge his bets greatly with a huge incentive from the taxpayers given the risks of success and it will be deja vu with the first round. 

[thelakelander]

^Different markets indeed but I did notice the state is giving away free land. Thats a hell of a deal, considering the location of this property. I was previously under the impression that the state did not get involved in stadium deals.

[acme54321]

It depends who you are.  Zalupski and DeSantis are bros.

[Jax_Developer]

Well the whole point is that these deals happen better together. Sorry but I don't see the City of Jacksonville (or most cities for that matter) out negotiating Shad Khan & his team. Yes we can identify the differences between every stadium deal if we want, but the basics remain the same... the current agreement added items that will benefit the Iguana team in the long run. Other deals take all of this into account up front - primarily with infrastructure. Which, btw, arguably has the biggest impact on localized values.

The state giving up land =/= throwing cash at a deal. Apples & Oranges for a conversation of this depth.