Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Brutalist-Architecture-August-2020/i-BQmKPw9/0/9be00ffb/L/DSCF6032-L.jpg)
It's often claimed that moving Jacksonville's waterfront jail and police station is key to revitalizing Downtown. But is it true? A survey of cities with livelier downtowns than Jacksonville's shows that while there are plenty of good reasons to explore new facilities, this expensive undertaking is highly unlikely to have the claimed effects on Downtown's vibrancy.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-downtown-jail-fallacy/
These examples just don't correlate to Jacksonville. I'll continue to be an echo chamber on just how insane the idea is that the jail doesn't negatively contribute to downtown. Columbus Ohio.. actively relocating and shutting down their DT jail. Minneapolis is less than 10% the size of Jacksonville, lying within a metro with other municipalities completely surrounding their city limits. The same is true for Fort Lauderdale. Both cities are much more built out, wealthy and have higher demand than DT Jax. All three are perfect examples of dead zones too, existing in government districts with a tremendous lack of retail comparatively to the surrounding areas. However, our jail is on a government island.. existing basically on its own now. So now we let retail & nearby parcels take the hit that government uses otherwise would.
Comparisons to struggling DT's should be made. Not vibrant, well established, wealthy downtowns of large metros. That's not an honest comparison. And why would Columbus Ohio possibly be moving their DT jail. Can't be anything at all related to some of the negative attributes a DT jail brings. Nope, everything else other than that?
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.
The Duval jail certainly LOOKS like a jail more so than the others. I've been to DT Columbus and had no clue the jail was right there. I still don't consider moving the jail a priority, as there is a multitude of lower hanging fruit.
Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.
First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville?
No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 10:58:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2023, 12:45:01 PM
Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.
I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.
I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.
^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.
There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 10:58:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2023, 12:45:01 PM
Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.
I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.
I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.
Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.
Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Manhattan should never be used as a comparable to a third tier market like Jax. Memphis, Buffalo, Louisville sure. A sprawling city like Columbus (which is actually a larger core county than Duval and MSA than Jax's) is more appropriate than Manhattan. Lots and good and bad things we can learn from places similar in scale and size.
Quote from: fsu813 on July 24, 2023, 01:09:13 PM
First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.
Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.
I think it'd be ideal to put DCPS in Florida Blue, and JSO in the JEA/Universal Marion building. JTA site should arguably be mixed-use/residential anyway instead of more office space. Seems we have more than enough downtown right now.
Heck, Truist just announced they're vacating (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/24/truist-moving-to-hanania-building-on-downtown-southbank/) the building with their name on it, could we find space for DCPS there? Or I guess it's too late for them to participate in that process anyway?
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 02:27:20 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 10:58:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2023, 12:45:01 PM
Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.
I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.
I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.
Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.
Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.
So removing the most detrimental downtown use will result in vacant use of 11 prime acres of land for years? Huh? Let me guess, the surrounding land won't increase in value either? Oh and while we're at it, we aren't going to finance anything, the city is just going to pony up the cash up front? Yeah.. IDK about all that. I'm more highlighting some misconceptions being illustrated here.. The Northbank has more vacant office space than the entire metro combined.. and don't think that's because the Northbank has a ton of space relative to other parts of the city.. it doesn't. So, this article is defending keeping 750 jobs on the Northbank, at the cost of thousands of professional jobs in substitute? Oh and no retail spending, or dwelling units? When does it stop... What else is making the Northbank a vacuum in a market that is experiencing some of the highest levels of growth nationwide?
Heavy heavy heavy sunk cost cope.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 02:39:45 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Manhattan should never be used as a comparable to a third tier market like Jax. Memphis, Buffalo, Louisville sure. A sprawling city like Columbus (which is actually a larger core county than Duval and MSA than Jax's) is more appropriate than Manhattan. Lots and good and bad things we can learn from places similar in scale and size.
Then why use markets like Ft Lauderdale & Minneapolis as a comparison to Jacksonville? They aren't comparable markets either. That's my point with the Manhattan example. Columbus is at least similar to JAX.
We're talking about county jails and city's investing in their public facilities and spaces. A city investing or not investing in its public spaces isn't the same as comparing building a skyscraper in Manhattan, Ft Lauderdale, Jax or Palm Coast. A city can and should invest in itself regardless of market size. We'd love to see Jax invest in itself and not make excuses for not doing so. That's basically what the editorial was about. From that perspective, Columbus is very appropriate for a comparison. The Franklin County Jail being in downtown did not stop them from investing in Columbus Commons two blocks away. It didn't stop them from keeping their public streets clean or creating an environment where residents want to be.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2023, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on July 24, 2023, 01:09:13 PM
First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.
Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.
Was told building new by JTA was off the table.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 08:50:37 PM
We're talking about county jails and city's investing in their public facilities and spaces. A city investing or not investing in its public spaces isn't the same as comparing building a skyscraper in Manhattan, Ft Lauderdale, Jax or Palm Coast. A city can and should invest in itself regardless of market size. We'd love to see Jax invest in itself and not make excuses for not doing so. That's basically what the editorial was about. From that perspective, Columbus is very appropriate for a comparison. The Franklin County Jail being in downtown did not stop them from investing in Columbus Commons two blocks away. It didn't stop them from keeping their public streets clean or creating an environment where residents want to be.
Right, and yet our jail is still the only example that I am aware of that exists on a "government island" while sitting on some of the most prime real estate the city has today. Not surrounded by court rooms or social services like virtually every other example that exists.
Columbus itself has a downtown job density of 93/acre according to their 2021 employment figures. Why is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.
QuoteWhy is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.
We've talked about these issues since this forum was created. We've continued to ignore or not address the majority of them. They aren't centered around the jail.
That's a nice claim to make, yet you haven't provided reasons as to what another factor could be the case, but for only the Northbank.
"Many cities with far more vibrant downtowns than Jacksonville have jails in even more high-profile places."
Just like this claim. Where? Literally where? I've looked at so many jails because of this.. Still yet to see a single one in a better location that ours. (I don't wanna hear about FLL again, it's not comparable) When virtually every market surrounding the CC is doing well, and the entire city is doing well... I think there needs be a more realistic conclusion. Two statements can be true.
1). The jail is not the reason the CC fell into economic turmoil
2). The jail is what is currently holding back the CC
"Conventional wisdom holds that the jail is bad for Downtown and takes up valuable space that could otherwise go to something else. But conventional wisdom on Downtown Jacksonville often has the problem of being completely wrong."
Or, there have been poor decisions in the past... and we don't need to redefine economics and urban planning to get this one right.
There's 15 years of articles on a variety of subjects on this website that have covered these issues. I have a busy day of meetings, so I don't have immediate time to dig up all of them. A lack of real downtown master plan, the 1990s consolidation of banking and insurance headquarters in downtown, the inability to follow through on RFPs of public land, the inability to address the convention center issue, the demolition of the Landing, the continued demolition of historic building stock with no follow up development plans, the 3Cs, are just a few that come to mind. It's not all about the jail. That's basically what the editorial intended to address.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 24, 2023, 02:09:31 PM
^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.
There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.
This is the crux. Someone in Jax higher levels (that everyone respects as a genius leader) creates a talking point and it blows up in all the Jax leadership circles. It's the same thing with the "magic" 10,000 units number (which already morphed from 10,000 residents). This is a city hung up on talking points based on "experts" saying something at some point.
So now the latest talking point is the jail. We need to move the jail out of downtown because it's what's holding everything back and once we do, magically things will explode.
I hate to say it, but there is at some point an extreme level of stupidity with which we approach "matters" related to downtown. We can't even fix Friendship Fountain and open that park back up in less than 4 years, but sure, we need to create an emergency situation about moving the jail so that downtown can flourish. Oh, and once we have 10,000 units downtown spread across the 4 square miles that are the boundaries (with a river dividing it all, as well as overpasses, etc), we'll have downtown department stores again and crowded sidewalks!
It's the Jessie Ball duPont Fund crowd talking points. The foundation donor class in Jacksonville loves these things and they all get behind them and start repeating them in all the marketing materials that eventually get created, and the "master plans", etc etc. There's a "hyper intelligentsia" class in Jax, but we have nothing to show from all of this supposed brain power.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 08:38:54 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 02:27:20 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 24, 2023, 01:21:07 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations. Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 24, 2023, 10:58:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 24, 2023, 10:41:26 AM
All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.
There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2023, 12:45:01 PM
Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.
I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.
I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.
Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.
Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.
So removing the most detrimental downtown use will result in vacant use of 11 prime acres of land for years? Huh? Let me guess, the surrounding land won't increase in value either? Oh and while we're at it, we aren't going to finance anything, the city is just going to pony up the cash up front? Yeah.. IDK about all that. I'm more highlighting some misconceptions being illustrated here.. The Northbank has more vacant office space than the entire metro combined.. and don't think that's because the Northbank has a ton of space relative to other parts of the city.. it doesn't. So, this article is defending keeping 750 jobs on the Northbank, at the cost of thousands of professional jobs in substitute? Oh and no retail spending, or dwelling units? When does it stop... What else is making the Northbank a vacuum in a market that is experiencing some of the highest levels of growth nationwide?
Heavy heavy heavy sunk cost cope.
There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 25, 2023, 09:43:48 AM
Columbus itself has a downtown job density of 93/acre according to their 2021 employment figures. Why is DT Jacksonville lacking so far behind, at roughly 20-25/acre? What has made countless firms evacuate DT over several decades? It's not the street infrastructure or lack of sidewalk activation.
It's true that the banking/insurance consolidation of the 1990s took a toll on Jacksonville. However, and I hate to say it because the city is filled with great people, and I certainly don't have money to put where my mouth is, but people living east of the river tend not to give a s**t about DT Jacksonville as they are more beach/town center oriented. People in the Ortega/Avondale/San Marco neighborhoods do because they tend to still work downtown and many of the donors of the symphony, MOSH, etc come from these parts. However, they just don't care enough about downtown. There's still the stupidest perception problems even amongst people living 10 minutes away and working downtown (I would call this a total lack of sophistication in thinking, and no ability to realistically compare to other places).
I hate to say it and it makes me feel bad, but our local millionaire business leader class isn't as good to this city's downtown/otherwise as other cities', from what I've seen. We don't have as good of leaders, public AND private, in my opinion. I feel terrible saying this because the people we have are good people and they do donate to lots of causes, but I feel like there's still quite a bit left on the table. I think there's a little bit of extra greed in this town, and we don't have big old timer business leaders doing enough to try to revive downtown.
One of the biggest downtown advocates and business leaders is Brian Wolfburg of Vystar. He's a young and relatively recent transplant and he has single-handedly done more than anyone I can think of in Ortega/Avondale for bringing momentum downtown in recent years.
Alex Sifakis of JWB is not from here, but is doing his part on the development side (as is Andy and a few others). But our entrenched "upper class" could really care less, despite all the lip service. To them (and their children) downtown is still an empty place filled with homeless that they don't care about aside from coming into work and then leaving. There's no real local sense of pride here.
Like where is the Civic Council on how freaking long it's taking the city to finish Friendship Fountain? I know they are all "behind the scenes" (as is everything in Jax and look where that gets us), but the fact that business leaders aren't publicly banging down the doors to get things moving is evidence of how little they actually care at the end of the day.
Love him or hate him, Trump is an example of a NYC business man who routinely stepped in to matters to get things done and past red tape in New York. The Wollman ice skating rink is a classic example. I can think of other examples in plenty of other cities of local private sector leaders getting fed up and making things happen. We just don't have that in Jax - lots of wealthy people satisfied with the status quo around here.
So that translates to fewer jobs per acre in our downtown because nobody from our business community really cares to try to turn that around.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2023, 10:55:40 AM
There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.
Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax. That won't do anything to improve the situation. We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.
Quote from: simms3 on July 25, 2023, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2023, 10:55:40 AM
There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.
Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax. That won't do anything to improve the situation. We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.
Haha! Whatever we're trying to bring in, we have a better chance of doing that in our underused buildings than in waiting to build a new jail, demolish the old one and then build something from scratch.
Quote from: fsu813 on July 25, 2023, 08:57:58 AM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2023, 04:51:44 PM
Quote from: fsu813 on July 24, 2023, 01:09:13 PM
First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.
Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.
Was told building new by JTA was off the table.
Unfortunate because a new building would be cool, but like I said before we don't really need more office space right now. Much better to fill and re-utilize existing space.
Quote from: simms3 on July 25, 2023, 10:52:12 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 24, 2023, 02:09:31 PM
^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.
There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.
This is the crux. Someone in Jax higher levels (that everyone respects as a genius leader) creates a talking point and it blows up in all the Jax leadership circles. It's the same thing with the "magic" 10,000 units number (which already morphed from 10,000 residents). This is a city hung up on talking points based on "experts" saying something at some point.
So now the latest talking point is the jail. We need to move the jail out of downtown because it's what's holding everything back and once we do, magically things will explode.
I hate to say it, but there is at some point an extreme level of stupidity with which we approach "matters" related to downtown. We can't even fix Friendship Fountain and open that park back up in less than 4 years, but sure, we need to create an emergency situation about moving the jail so that downtown can flourish. Oh, and once we have 10,000 units downtown spread across the 4 square miles that are the boundaries (with a river dividing it all, as well as overpasses, etc), we'll have downtown department stores again and crowded sidewalks!
It's the Jessie Ball duPont Fund crowd talking points. The foundation donor class in Jacksonville loves these things and they all get behind them and start repeating them in all the marketing materials that eventually get created, and the "master plans", etc etc. There's a "hyper intelligentsia" class in Jax, but we have nothing to show from all of this supposed brain power.
There's very much a big sense of anxiety amongst the city's leadership about Jacksonville's place in Florida and the economy, but they're such "big picture" people about anything outside their direct field that the solutions to that anxiety look something like "we need to be a tech hub" or "we should move the homeless/jail" instead of deeper considerations about developing a good city.
Personally I don't mind the goal of however many residents or units, just to have something to aim for, but it's folly to assume that by hitting that number you level-up somehow and things just improve by themselves.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2023, 11:44:00 AM
Quote from: simms3 on July 25, 2023, 11:23:39 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2023, 10:55:40 AM
There's not much new construction on any of Downtown's many other empty lots and vacant sites that are far better positioned than the jail site. Hell, the Landing site is as well positioned as it gets and it's been vacant for more than 4 years. So no, it's unlikely the jail site will be different. We have a better bet getting "thousands of professional jobs" in some of the underused buildings or cheaper, better sites than we do waiting for a silver bullet at the jail site. *Maybe* it moves faster if the city builds something there itself, but that's hundreds of millions more dollars on top of the $244 million (at least) to move the jail. Heavy heavy heavy unrealistic fantasy cope.
Don't you DARE talk about trying to bring office jobs to downtown Jax. That won't do anything to improve the situation. We only need apartments now, that's the magic recipe.
Haha! Whatever we're trying to bring in, we have a better chance of doing that in our underused buildings than in waiting to build a new jail, demolish the old one and then build something from scratch.
I'm thinking now about the plan Lori Boyer told me at the DIA branding meeting that one time. For the Shipyards and Hardwick and other projects to somehow raise land prices enough that it'd be just fine and dandy for the Hyatt to buy the Annex parcel and that a developer would pay for a convention hotel site at the jail. That was just a year and a half ago now but... lol.
Can't raise land values enough on property sitting adjacent to a jail with elevated crime to build 20-story rental towers. Just not happening. We're in a loop of wanting something to happen without actually trying to understand why or the real math behind how this works.
Other cities haven't shot their CC in the foot to the point of making hotel, office, and condos all impossible in our most expensive real estate but not. People here don't wanna hear it & that's fine. In the 1980's, the CC, near our jail, could sustain 300'+ structures for-profit. Now? Virtually nothing. Jail has played no part in that though and should remain exactly where it is and we should spend 10 years arguing over it. Clearly, the Northbank has improved since opening day.
20 story residential buildings next to the jail are likely not the top priority in downtown at the moment. Right now, the actual core needs a lot of investment.
Some form of study by Council is set to begin. Also includes Lori Boyer's pitch on the jail site for a convention center.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/14/city-council-special-committee-will-study-downtown-jail-police-facilities/
Everyone is pitching for their pet projects. I'm just glad the core focus on this study is on public safety and not convention centers, apartments and other things. The time will come to figure all that out, once the true needs are accessed and fully understood.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 14, 2023, 01:20:20 PM
Some form of study by Council is set to begin. Also includes Lori Boyer's pitch on the jail site for a convention center.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/14/city-council-special-committee-will-study-downtown-jail-police-facilities/
Based on the rendering with the article, it looks like the convention center is on the JSO HQ's site and the jail behind it is still there. Haha. What's that all about?
(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/08/11/convention_center_r800x500.jpg?6282b40b45fc69feef75f6b5ff7b0f3040c2c9b4)
^I wouldn't get caught up on these renderings. No one even knows if a convention center is feasible at that particular location at this point. You're only setting yourself up for disappointment when this doesn't materialize.
The first meeting of the special committee was today.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/16/special-city-council-committee-begins-look-at-downtown-jail-police-facilities/
There will be fight if there's a push to move the jail from the current location to LaVilla.....
QuoteIf the jail and the sheriff's office were to be moved, it would cost the city hundreds of millions to do so, but there is also the question of where it would go. And it seemed a general consensus could be somewhere near the courthouse.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/08/16/city-council-group-considering-duval-county-jail-move-eyes-area-near-courthouse-as-possible-landing-spot/
Guess a lot of people here were on to something about the idea that near the courthouse would be an idea.
Doesn't mean it should go there but folks certainly had a feeling about it.
Good luck to LaVilla.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2023, 08:50:47 PM
There will be fight if there's a push to move the jail from the current location to LaVilla.....
QuoteIf the jail and the sheriff's office were to be moved, it would cost the city hundreds of millions to do so, but there is also the question of where it would go. And it seemed a general consensus could be somewhere near the courthouse.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/08/16/city-council-group-considering-duval-county-jail-move-eyes-area-near-courthouse-as-possible-landing-spot/
Yeah, when I read that I thought, "Uh, not only No, but Hell No!"
I could see a
small pre-trial detention facility adjacent to the Court House, but only with room for a day or two's worth of court cases.
Quote
he seven-story structure is 629,000 square feet. Though it employs 384 detention deputies and about 80 civilian employees, it only has 250 parking spaces.
I really hope someone figures out that, with 3 shifts, all 464 employees are not onsite at the same time. But ... once the U2C is zipping around Bay Street, employees could park at the Stadium and ride the super duper AVs.
OK, if there are only 2 shifts, parking could be a problem.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2023, 08:50:47 PM
There will be fight if there's a push to move the jail from the current location to LaVilla.....
QuoteIf the jail and the sheriff's office were to be moved, it would cost the city hundreds of millions to do so, but there is also the question of where it would go. And it seemed a general consensus could be somewhere near the courthouse.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/08/16/city-council-group-considering-duval-county-jail-move-eyes-area-near-courthouse-as-possible-landing-spot/
Wait.... you're saying a gas station, shuttle maintenance facility, and jail aren't revitalizing LaVilla? What more do you want! They even tore down Captain Sandy's historic building, now a beautiful vacant lot primed for infill!
^Yes, the neighborhood may as well be an urban sewer. That's the way its being treated.
Lol moving the jail to LaVilla would be almost as bad of a decision as placing it on the river. Pass it to the next generation seems to be a common theme here.
In my opinion, if it does move they need to move it wayy out of the way along I-10, and just pay the cost of shuttling. Doing any of this in an urban area just means we are building up and spending way more $$ than necessary.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/08/16/city-council-group-considering-duval-county-jail-move-eyes-area-near-courthouse-as-possible-landing-spot/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/08/16/city-council-group-considering-duval-county-jail-move-eyes-area-near-courthouse-as-possible-landing-spot/)
QuoteIf the jail and the sheriff's office were to be moved, it would cost the city hundreds of millions to do so, but there is also the question of where it would go. And it seemed a general consensus could be somewhere near the courthouse.
"Yes, it's about moving the jail. But as we look at moving it, what's going to be there? Do we need more land? Is it better? I think one of the lessons that we learned is that it's probably better to go horizontal as opposed to vertical," Councilman Rahman Johnson said.
I'm just combining the emboldened thoughts above, which followed one another. Quote: move to courthouse area and spread it out horizontally as opposed to vertically.
I just can't hold back from being nice anymore. What the freaking hell is in our water that we have so many truly dumb people running this joint? How can this be a trail of thought, by anyone, living here or running this town? That makes literally no sense. If you want the horizontal spread out jail, then move the jail way the hell out of the urban core, let alone downtown. Otherwise, go very vertical, but this thing does not need to be super close to the courthouse.
We already let one administration screw up the street grid and take hella payment for his own Gate Concrete company. Let the corruption games begin again for this jail move.
You leave town for two days on a business trip, and when you come back the city is talking about building a horizontal prison in LaVilla.
Classic Jacksonville.
We can never resist a good 50-year mistake.
Maybe the $1 billion network of clown cars be repurposed to transport prisoners when JTA finally realizes that Uber does the same thing, at more than 20 mph, at the same cost to consumers, across a wider geography, without the 10-minute headway, complicated app, and drug dealer sitting in your lap.
I wonder if putting the CC on the jail site is the compromise for the Hyatt to give up that parcel on Bay?
I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.
Just put the jail on Exchange Island, no neighborhoods or people living there to offend other than the occasional kayaker. Ferry the inmates to the old Landing ramps and shuttle them to the courthouse... Then 60 years from now when it closes we'll have some good escape attempt stories and can make it a tourist attraction :P
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2023, 06:09:01 PM
I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.
Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own?
I think replacing the jail site with another public use is a big mistake. That would include putting a convention center here. The site, in my opinion, really needs to be tax producing. That's one of the larger issues with the jail being in the location. To put another tax 0 asset on the site would not support the jail relocation efforts to the highest degree. (Not talking about the police station which I think should stay in it's location, maybe rebuilt on a smaller footprint.)
I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 18, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2023, 06:09:01 PM
I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.
Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own?
Likely not. It would not make sense for a new convention center to not have a ballroom, meeting space, etc. That alone, means we'd building these spaces to compete against these spaces that we already have in the Hyatt. Then without an attached hotel, we'd be spending hundreds of millions on something that would be substandard to the competition that does have attached hotels.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 18, 2023, 01:14:58 PM
I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.
The easiest and most affordable solution to the convention center issue is to renovate the Hyatt and add an exhibition hall adjacent to its existing meeting spaces and grand ballroom. In essence, the Hyatt would become a part of the "convention center" as opposed to building every component of a new convention center and hotel complex from scratch. Every single convention center idea outside of this will require taxpayers to spend hundreds of millions more on a subsidized use that literally competes head to head with our existing heavily subsidized convention hotel/meeting complex. Also, yes....we aren't competing with the Orlandos and Atlantas of the convention market. So we don't need a new massive facility either. Jax should learn to stay within its own lane and compete within its lane.
This is where - despite how cool the Hardwick proposal looked, I've always thought the best solution was to combine the two blocks on bay with an exhibit hall. Doing quick Google Maps math, you can get about 250k SqFt out of that. That's big enough to host a LOT of conventions around the country, and that doesn't count the Hyatt's space already.
Now, if you somehow got the entire, 6 block site that is the current Jail and PMB, that would be about 525k SqFt. Obviously significantly larger.
My thought is that we could move on the facility attached to the Hyatt now and let the Jail/PMB conversation take the proper amount of time - 5 to 10 years. In that amount of time, you can have a facility attached to the Hyatt up and running for some time. If the convention business explodes and the new building is bursting at the seams, then you could honestly consider an expansion there. If somehow our convention business is THAT strong with 250k SqFt, then we could look at building something there and attach it - it could be one of the very few times a skywalk makes sense.
Additionally, if we had the market for that size of a facility (combined 750k SqFt plus), we'd probably need a second hotel, which would be a co-anchor on the second phase.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 18, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2023, 06:09:01 PM
I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.
Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own?
Even when it was originally proposed to build a massive new convention center directly adjacent to the Hyatt at Ford on Bay, the DIA required proposals to include their own hotel.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2023, 01:43:59 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 18, 2023, 01:14:58 PM
I agree with others concerns around funding towards the relocation efforts... The way that is best circumnavigated is to have these parcels be tax producing assets with private use. The convention center idea also is a little farfetched to me given our proximity to Orlando... Orlando is so much easier to get to with dozens of venues. Why compete with that? My vote is to use our water as an asset for future hotel use & further commercialization. Orlando & a large % of the US severely lacks anything like that.
The easiest and most affordable solution to the convention center issue is to renovate the Hyatt and add an exhibition hall adjacent to its existing meeting spaces and grand ballroom. In essence, the Hyatt would become a part of the "convention center" as opposed to building every component of a new convention center and hotel complex from scratch. Every single convention center idea outside of this will require taxpayers to spend hundreds of millions more on a subsidized use that literally competes head to head with our existing heavily subsidized convention hotel/meeting complex. Also, yes....we aren't competing with the Orlandos and Atlantas of the convention market. So we don't need a new massive facility either. Jax should learn to stay within its own lane and compete within its lane.
Lori Boyer has for years been chasing this pipe dream idea of the DIA's projects skyrocketing downtown land values enough to justify private investment in a massive new convention center complex at the jail site that would also give the city a huge payout by Hyatt on the City Hall parcel. I would think it would be obvious already that interest rates alone are not going to let that happen, but given the recent Daily Record article (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/14/city-council-special-committee-will-study-downtown-jail-police-facilities/) that doesn't appear to be the case.
Given the Hardwick already appears to be collapsing (unless something magical happens in the next few months) it seems most prudent to go back to where we started in 2018 but on a smaller scale, get a reasonably sized exhibition hall and renovation done at the Hyatt so we can finally focus on other things instead of pinballing the convention center around like we have for about two decades now.
Quote from: Steve on August 18, 2023, 03:11:47 PM
My thought is that we could move on the facility attached to the Hyatt now and let the Jail/PMB conversation take the proper amount of time - 5 to 10 years. In that amount of time, you can have a facility attached to the Hyatt up and running for some time. If the convention business explodes and the new building is bursting at the seams, then you could honestly consider an expansion there. If somehow our convention business is THAT strong with 250k SqFt, then we could look at building something there and attach it - it could be one of the very few times a skywalk makes sense.
That's kind of the thing, if substantially more convention space would be successful it'd quickly become self-evident when the Hyatt facility is holding larger conventions more and more often.
I will say that I think there's some potential synergy in just having JSO renovate and occupy the Universal Marion/JEA building as their office. Tons of space, near other government facilities, doesn't require new construction. Turn the existing police building into a park for now (could move stuff like the Jazz Festival concert stage there once the City Hall site is under construction) so that ultimately the main focus is just figuring out the right way to handle spending $300 million or more on the jail situation.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2023, 01:39:35 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 18, 2023, 12:33:29 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2023, 06:09:01 PM
I can't image so. A convention center at the jail site does nothing for the Hyatt. Plus, for that convention center to be successful, it would need an attached hotel of its own. So all it would add to is more tax money to subsidize additional competition against a convention center hotel we've already subsidized.
Wouldn't a CC at the jail site be sufficiently close to the Hyatt such that the Hyatt would be the defacto CC hotel? Especially since the Hyatt itself has convention space of its own?
Likely not. It would not make sense for a new convention center to not have a ballroom, meeting space, etc. That alone, means we'd building these spaces to compete against these spaces that we already have in the Hyatt. Then without an attached hotel, we'd be spending hundreds of millions on something that would be substandard to the competition that does have attached hotels.
How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping. I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first.
Is facilitating two conventions in Jacksonville worth a billion dollars? Maybe! But we could easily reuse the City Hall site first and figure that out before we spend that money.
QuoteHow 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be?
Who is the competition and what are they bringing to the table? We're not in Orlando's league and won't be with a center at the jail site either. Placing that tier aside, our comparable would be convention centers in cities like Memphis, Raleigh, Norfolk, Mobile, Daytona, etc. All have hotels either directly attached or immediately adjacent. If our new product, that we've spent hundreds of millions to build, is still substandard to the competition, then the new facility is just as likely to struggle as the Prime Osborn. If we're building it to compete, then we're duplicating everything we're subsidizing with the Hyatt a few blocks away.
QuoteSeems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space.
It could do better if it had an attached exhibition hall. It was in foreclosure less than 10 years ago. As of now, its simply a better option locally than the Prime Osborn for many conventions due to it having the things that the Prime Osborn lacks, along with having a large ballroom.
QuoteThe new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping.
Adding an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt would allow for larger groups and multiple conventions going on simultaneously. Other than someone simply dreaming of a large convention center on the jail site, it really is hard to economically justify moving the jail to subsidize such of use. It doesn't promise to do anything that a Hyatt location can't do, outside of costing taxpayers a ton of money while competing head to head with the existing heavily subsidized Hyatt facility. If we have that much money to spend, one can only imagine how that money could be invested in other downtown infrastructure and economic development needs.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 19, 2023, 01:35:12 PM
How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping. I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first.
Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.
The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.
Quote from: Steve on August 21, 2023, 01:29:55 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 19, 2023, 01:35:12 PM
How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping. I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first.
Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.
The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.
Steve you are probably one of the more tapped in people with Convention Centers locally it sounds like. From my outward opinion, I feel like JAX, in particular, lacks significantly for us to try and capture a regional or national level convention market. I think the usual Miami, Orlando or Tampa stops are already very accessible and offer better overall hotel environments for it. I personally feel like the convention center idea needs to be approached after the downtown & JAX improve over the next 5-10 years (hopefully). Even then, I'd rather it be out of an explicit demand need than anything else because that land 'should' be tax generating.
^Here's my two cents....which have been the same for 15 years on this site now.
I'm not for sure that Jax is competing against Miami, Orlando or Tampa. Those markets are significantly larger. We should not be fooled by our consolidated population. We're closer to Grand Rapids, MI and Memphis, TN in MSA population than Miami, Orlando, Tampa, etc. We're already in the convention business. We're just losing to the Daytona Beaches, Memphis', Grand Rapids, etc. in the business and have been for quite a while. We have demand, within our tier, as we're losing our own growing events to other markets and have been for some time now. However, we do need to invest in ourselves and we're a good 20 years of talking about this as well.
As mentioned a decade ago (time flies), the convention center isn't going to turn around downtown by itself and downtown isn't going to grow to create a new market for the business (...we're already in the business, we just suck at it). So I like to frame the conversation around better utilizing our existing assets (i.e. Hyatt, centralized city of land, conversion of Prime Osborn back into a train station), to strengthen our place within the market. Getting the basics right via the 3Cs, is what results in the improved downtown environment. For now, an exhibition hall and renovated Hyatt can deliver that. 20-30 years later (if the market demands it), we can have a conversation about something significantly larger and more expensive.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on August 22, 2023, 12:34:34 PM
Quote from: Steve on August 21, 2023, 01:29:55 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 19, 2023, 01:35:12 PM
How 'attached' does the CC hotel have to be? It's one diagonal block between the Hyatt and the Sheriff office. Seems like the Hyatt is already getting use of its existing convention space. The new facilities would be to attract larger groups, that can either use the new (larger) facilities or both the new and old. It would also facilitate having two conventions going on simultaneously or overlapping. I can see Steve's point though, the better solution is to just utilize the old City Hall Annex/Courthouse property first.
Realistically, especially for the mid-sized conventions we'd be targeting, it should be attached. I generally hate skywalks, but realistically it needs to be attached somehow. For my business I'm at a convention every 1-2 months, and the powers that be in the business demand this or they go elsewhere.
The only exception is I attend 1-2 a year that are in the "mega" category, ones that fill the GWCC in Atlanta, McCormick in Chicago and Javits in New York. McCormick has 1-2 hotels attached, Atlanta is building it's first (though I think you can walk inside to the Omni CNN Center), and Javits doesn't have an attached hotel. BUT, there is no one hotel that could ever hold even a majority of the convention. The last big one I went to was the National Retail Big Show in New York with 35,000 people in January. Whether or not there was an attached hotel to Javits is irrelevant - it wasn't holding 35k people. But that's a market by itself.
Steve you are probably one of the more tapped in people with Convention Centers locally it sounds like. From my outward opinion, I feel like JAX, in particular, lacks significantly for us to try and capture a regional or national level convention market. I think the usual Miami, Orlando or Tampa stops are already very accessible and offer better overall hotel environments for it. I personally feel like the convention center idea needs to be approached after the downtown & JAX improve over the next 5-10 years (hopefully). Even then, I'd rather it be out of an explicit demand need than anything else because that land 'should' be tax generating.
There are WAY more conventions that can fit into under 250k SqFt facility than those that require more than 250k. Further, there's way more that can fit into 500k than those that require more than 500k. Orlando and their massive 2M+ SqFt space competes with Chicago, Vegas, and that's about it in terms of shows that need more than 1M contiguous space.
For large shows like that, and even in that tier that's around 750k SqFt of space (Atlanta for example), there are a lot of other city drivers that contribute to the space. Atlanta is home to the busiest airport in the world - it only makes sense that it has a convention center that can scale in that regard.
One of the reasons I like the concept of 250k SqFt attached to the Hyatt then - only if the demand there is high - we look to the PMB/Jail site in a decade plus where you could fit another hotel and another 500k SqFt or so, is that it could enable hosting two small to mid-side conventions at the same time. The positive there is - and this is when a better funded CVB and more large hotels come into play, they can work with conference organizers to shift things by a day in some cases as to not flood things like popular after-hours event spaces, traffic in and out, etc.
I feel like the DIA in this regard may be letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sure, a fancy facility on the site of the PMB/Jail might be nice, but we're losing our opportunity cost.
^ I am thinking a convention center properly designed can accommodate one large convention or several smaller ones with movable walls/dividers. I have seen this many times with hotels and convention centers. My point is a larger building with flexible walls gives you the best of all worlds, hosting multiple smaller conventions or one large one.
That said, I don't see Jax competing for larger conventions for many of the reasons cited: Lack of flights, nothing to do downtown after hours, a lack of attractions (when conventioneers want to bring family members along) or at least robust promotion of the ones we have and very poor public transit, both urban (around a convention center/downtown area) and to activities of interest outside of downtown.
We should first take the hundreds of millions of dollars and address the above before we pitch for a new convention center... let's not get the cart before the horse like we did with the current convention center. We see how that worked out. Wonder how many convention centers are essentially surrounded by a dead zone for decades. Total incompetence, par for downtown projects.
^ This is why you put an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt. This doesn't require the investment of a new convention center from scratch. You use your existing assets to serve the need for the foreseeable future and for a fraction of the costs.
I find myself thinking about the real inconsistency that's been demonstrated throughout this sort of journey regarding convention space.
I pulled up the 2017 study (https://dia.coj.net/Resources/Summaries-Studies/SAG-Conference-Center-Study.aspx) (the one later cited to kibosh the convention center RFP) and noticed that it stresses the importance of incorporating the river into the convention center itself, and recommends the Courthouse site specifically because of its riverfront location, proximity to a headquarters hotel (the Hyatt) and walkability to downtown amenities.
Yet now, in 2023 (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/14/city-council-special-committee-will-study-downtown-jail-police-facilities/), Lori Boyer is saying that a convention center needs to be further from all of those things because it needs to be closer to the sports district, and then says that it shouldn't be too close to the riverfront. What happened? What is she basing that on?
Later in the study, it's interesting that the list of cities chosen for "comparative review" is:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/847298939618590760/1143751872520405043/Screenshot_2023-08-22_at_11.41.24_PM.png)
It then proceeds to declare that we should be in the "mid range" of those chosen cities, which is why it ends up proposing a 200,000 square foot center with a 40,000 square foot ballroom and 45 meeting rooms. That's after saying that the 30 meeting planners they spoke to said that restaurants and nightlife were an important factor. So I don't see how the DIA's takeaway could then be that the convention center needs to be moved away from the nightlife area to be surrounded by highway ramps, a coffee factory, and condos. Or how Shipyards West Park can be cited as creating the best atmosphere for a convention center to be adjacent to, compared to other things, while knowing that it is likely that they're about to leave a grass crater right across the street from the nightlife area.
This is without saying anything about the ludicrous adventure we had between the Jaguars wanting the convention center to go to the Shipyards and trying to propose a consolation development for Ford on Bay.
Good grief.
The 2017 work was highly questionable, imo. We don't need a "new" convention center and most of the cities evaluated are outside of our tier and market.
I know it's humbling, but it would have been more accurate to look into the likes of centers in places like Mobile, Huntsville, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. becuase they are more of our speed, when discussing downtown. The Prime Osborn is completely outdated and has been for more than 30 years now. It gets worse and worse every day and struggles to compete with the Hyatt....for many of the reasons expressed in the report. When you start looking at why we struggle and understand what the Prime Osborn lacks, you need to either invest in it or shut it down altogether. "Investing in it" (which is also listed as a next step), could be as simple as building an exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt, with ground floor retail /entertainment/cultural space facing Bay.....and closing the Prime Osborn.
That's simply better utilizing our existing assets (a centralized headquarters hotel + ballroom + meeting space and the POs exhibition hall) and clustering them together to maximize our ability to swim competitively in the kiddie pool that we're drowning in at the moment. All this talk and dreaming to become the Michael Phelps of the convention world is bonkers and overkill. Let's learn to crawl before trying to go on a steriod infused sprint.
IMO, that entire study was scoped wrong, in the focus was something grand, new and big, when #3 in the list below should be the primary focus to the convention center talk at this point.
Now, big thing that stands out is the "next steps" list. Six years have passed and I'd argue, it's gotten worse without the Landing. Riverfront Plaza isn't going to be as popular (i.e. attract more people on a daily basis) as the Landing was.....even in its final years.
QuoteCONCLUSION – NOT NOW, BUT AN IMPORTANT FUTURE ELEMENT
As stated in the first section of this report, SAG recommends against building a new Convention Center
at the present time, however the land banking and future planning for the Convention Center should be
part of all future downtown visioning The feedback that was received in interviews and surveys
demonstrated a moderate to low level of interest in many of the markets explored. This feedback
became much more favorable when shown renderings of future enhancements to the downtown area.
NEXT STEPS
As part of the overall visioning process in place in Jacksonville, SAG recommends establishing an
approach that includes effective planning for a potential future Convention Center. This will include the
following:
1. Secure the most favorable site as indicated by the research
The site that was identified in the customer interviews has growth potential, is next to a
headquarter hotel, and is positioned to take advantage of the St. John River as a backdrop.
2. Engage hotel developers and other potential business investors in discussions about future full
service hotels and other business development in conjunction with a new Convention Center
This will help validate the future impact a Convention Center will have in stimulating
development.
3. Finalize the vision for the Prime Osborn
The Prime Osborn is currently operating at an overall occupancy of 27%. This is a low occupancy
and may signify that it needs capital investment or to be repurposed.
4. Support the implementation of the shipyards, and other visions for the future of downtown
Jacksonville
The client feedback when reviewing the renderings of future Jacksonville visions was
outstanding. The implementation of this will be a significant step in positively impacting
Jacksonville's position as a viable convention destination.
5. Support the visioning process for the Landing
The evolution of the landing will greatly impact Jacksonville's attractiveness as a meetings and
convention destination.
6. Evaluate and develop a funding source to increase the marketing outreach to build the
awareness of Jacksonville as a meetings and convention destination.
Alternatives have been reviewed earlier in this study. It will be important to evaluate the most
appropriate option for Jacksonville.
7. Engage key stakeholders in a process to establish the most effective model for future convention,
meetings and event marketing and venue operations
There has been a trend to evaluate new approaches to create a seamless model for the sales,
marketing and operations of conventions, events and meeting. A process should be established
to evaluate the opportunities.
Seems worth noting that as of the proposed CIP (https://www.coj.net/departments/finance/docs/budget/fy24-proposed-cip.aspx) we will have spent approximately $20 million propping up the Prime Osborn in its current condition rather than making any substantive progress towards a replacement, because after six years the DIA has decided that the optimal plan is to wait for the city to spend half a billion dollars moving the jail and then spend half a billion more constructing a brand new convention center from scratch.
I wonder if an option would be to add on/rebuild the Osborne Convention Center and work to add a hotel(s) around it given the land options in that area. It could even be tied to a restoration of LaVilla, recreating the nightspots of old and playing up its history. Add, that the Emerald Trail now goes right in front, that I-95/I-10 ramps and the bus terminals are adjacent and you may have some elements for making this a preferred site.
There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 25, 2023, 05:15:56 PM
I wonder if an option would be to add on/rebuild the Osborne Convention Center and work to add a hotel(s) around it given the land options in that area. It could even be tied to a restoration of LaVilla, recreating the nightspots of old and playing up its history. Add, that the Emerald Trail now goes right in front, that I-95/I-10 ramps and the bus terminals are adjacent and you may have some elements for making this a preferred site.
I think we've had this conversation before and it seems much more complicated having to construct an entire neighborhood just to make a convention center (which would be basically new by the time you add more exhibition space, likely a new ballroom, and other amenities) work. We've already subsidized the Hyatt (which is already a large full-service hotel) and the Elbow already exists. Why spend hundreds of millions duplicating all of that in LaVilla when it can have its own identity instead of being built around the convention center?
Make the old train station a downtown shopping mall/center, bustling Brooklyn is just over the bridge, and maybe that would be a shot in the arm for LaVilla. I guess we'd better stick with the Hyatt downtown, add to it and improve it, and yes, get rid of the Jail and spend extra money building a convention center next to the Hyatt on the old Jail site. Somehow to me there's a waste of money here.
I'd love to see us return the old train station back to its original use and develop mixed use TOD around it. It's adjacent to the railroad, JRTC, Skyway, bus lines, etc. There's no other site in town where a union terminal makes more sense. Similar terminals in DC and Denver are an example of stations that also include retail and other uses, so there is some good precedence there for us to follow.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2023, 09:21:59 PM
I'd love to see us return the old train station back to its original use and develop mixed use TOD around it. It's adjacent to the railroad, JRTC, Skyway, bus lines, etc. There's no other site in town where a union terminal makes more sense. Similar terminals in DC and Denver are an example of stations that also include retail and other uses, so there is some good precedence there for us to follow.
Worth Repeating!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2023, 06:45:25 PM
There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.
As you know best, LaVilla is much more than a single block with an ugly gas station. That said, I would hardly call the Elbow or anything else around the Hyatt so robust as to satisfy the desires of conventioneers looking for good times. Plenty of cities with vision have reinvigorated desolate parts of town, building around existing infrastructure and taking things to the next level. The fact is that the area around LaVilla is more of a blank page than around the Hyatt and it has some advantages the Hyatt area doesn't.
As to more hotels, how many have been built or proposed in and around Downtown. Clearly, some developers might see demand for one near Oborne, especially knowing they can get incentives like the Four Seasons, which is actually being built in an even more isolated area. Bottom line... there is a right way to do it and the only question is can Jax pull it off? Based on history, maybe not, but then again, swing the bat enough times and maybe we finally hit the ball.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 25, 2023, 10:57:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 25, 2023, 06:45:25 PM
There's no market for two convention center sized hotels in downtown. There's also no entertainment or restaurants in vicinity. Drinking beer on top of a gas station isn't going to get it done. The cheaper, easier option, that checks all the boxes still ends up being the Hyatt site.
As you know best, LaVilla is much more than a single block with an ugly gas station. That said, I would hardly call the Elbow or anything else around the Hyatt so robust as to satisfy the desires of conventioneers looking for good times. Plenty of cities with vision have reinvigorated desolate parts of town, building around existing infrastructure and taking things to the next level. The fact is that the area around LaVilla is more of a blank page than around the Hyatt and it has some advantages the Hyatt area doesn't.
We both know that there is much more of a cluster of activity and built environment around the core of the Northbank than the area around the Prime Osborn. The Hyatt itself, which is located on the river and already adjacent to the Elbow, Cowford Chophouse, Florida Theatre, etc., has more restaurants than that area of LaVilla around the Prime Osborn. There's really no comparison.
However, I will disagree on the comment about LaVilla being a blank slate. It isn't. Yes, there has been a significant amount of urban renewal in LaVilla east of I-95, but the historic community, it's legacy institutions and many historic buildings are still present. If long time residents and their offspring have their way, its vision does not lie in uses like large scale convention centers, 1,000 room hotels, etc., that disrespect and take away from the character and unique mixed-use neighborhood they are working hard to restore. The plan there is to put things back into service as the urban neighborhood it used to be. Stay tuned, as there's some good things happening there that will be revealed in upcoming months.
QuoteAs to more hotels, how many have been built or proposed in and around Downtown.
No convention center sized, full service hotel has been built in Downtown since the Hyatt....which was heavily subsidized and was in bankruptcy less than ten years ago. Even the Four Seasons (which will have less than 200 rooms) doesn't fit that boat.
QuoteClearly, some developers might see demand for one near Oborne, especially knowing they can get incentives like the Four Seasons, which is actually being built in an even more isolated area. Bottom line... there is a right way to do it and the only question is can Jax pull it off? Based on history, maybe not, but then again, swing the bat enough times and maybe we finally hit the ball.
I do agree that there is a right way to do it.....but when we objectively look at the issue, which includes better utilizing what we already have.....it leads us back to the Hyatt.
Lake, I don't think we are that far apart regarding LaVilla. I am suggesting that if LaVilla is "restored" as you are working toward, it will become a vibrant historic and "self contained" community that will attract its own set of visitors to savor, not unlike historic districts elsewhere. This nearby vibrancy would be an asset to those visiting a convention here and would serve as an economic driver for the LaVilla community.
Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline. One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for.
From a time line perspective, building the area around the Prime Osborn into a competitive convention center environment would take decades. Cost wise, it would be more than building a new, large convention center on the jail site. When considering things in a practical sense, you still get pulled back to the Hyatt site. So I have to ask, what do people view was a negative with the Hyatt property? Is it just a preference for something new and significant larger than the Prime Osborn (even though the market doesn't demand it)?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 26, 2023, 01:28:24 PM.
Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline. One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for.
Yes, they are on it. A larger convention center isn't in the works but the rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis are priorities. Changes with the zoning, preservation practices and DDRB board make up will be needed.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 26, 2023, 08:41:04 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 26, 2023, 01:28:24 PM.
Protecting the integrity of LaVilla will be at the mercy of strict standards applied with discipline. One would expect this to be incorporated in the plans you and others are advocating for.
Yes, they are on it. A larger convention center isn't in the works but the rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis are priorities. Changes with the zoning, preservation practices and DDRB board make up will be needed.
What do you mean by "rehabilitation of Broad, Ashley and Davis?" What are they contemplating doing? Most of the "Lavilla Heart and Gut" has been choked off. Will they revive these areas somehow?
Restore what's left (i.e. Masonic Temple, Old Stanton, Lenape, etc.) while also adding complimentary mixed use infill development, rebuilding much of the density that was lost. Johnson Commons, Pratt Funeral Home being renovated into apartments and a Black owned wine bar are two examples underway.
The push to try to improve the Daily's site plan was to make them align with the LaVilla plan for Broad Street (i.e. revitalization of a walkable Black wall Street between Bay and State/Union. Some want to see Ashley Street rebuilt between Jefferson and Davis, just north of the LaVilla School of Arts.
Regarding Davis, there's talk of bringing back the Ritz Theatre District concept from the 1980s (just a 21st century version) as well. The general gist is that the neighborhood still exists and it can be economically revitalized inclusively, as long as we're intentional about it.
Ritz Theatre District? Anything about that? I don't think I've seen the concept before.
It always struck me as incredibly strange that the LaVilla School of the Arts is so intentionally sprawling. Just looking on a map I don't see why the school couldn't have been entirely contained to south of Church Street instead of using like eight blocks.
Unfortunately, it was very intentional to destroy (umm revitalize 1990s style) this area of LaVilla. I have articles, various plans, sketches, correspondence, etc. highlighting attempts to shut down long time businesses, taking of properties, and redevelopment ideas that were very suburban in nature. What's been done, has been done, but it's not too far gone if we (the City of Jax) are intentional about it and equitable at the decision making table about its future.
Regarding the theater district, there was a community push back in the 1980s to restore the Ritz and the Davis Street business district around in. The desire was to keep its old buildings and bring them back to life as a retail, dining and entertainment district, anchored by a revamped Ritz Theatre. At the time, some business owners had a fear that COJ would try and take their community away from them. Ultimately, that fear came true. Today, Davis is a shell of itself and the Ritz is isolated and underutilized. Yet, if we can get our act together, it can be the Black history museum, archives and cultural anchor than people really wanted decades ago.
I will scan some old articles and post them here.
LaVilla should be "next" after the usable land in Brooklyn is utilized.
Just as a note too, the land in LaVilla is not as "available" as it may seem at first glance. Because of the age of the area, there are very few full block assemblages. Most blocks are impacted by the Skyway, or the ownership is split amongst 0.1 acre parcels from the old style that existed there. The economics need to catch up to make these land assemblage activities profitable. I'm sure there are players doing it now, but I don't think that same theory is true even 5 years ago. (Lofts at Lavilla/Jefferson St is a perfect example of that).
So I hope your news is something like someone has some assemblages Lake lol..
^There's a lot you don't know that I'm not at liberty to say, regarding LaVilla right now. In time, things will be revealed. I'll just say that some of the things mentioned, like lot assemblage aren't major issues.
The players in Uptown LaVilla and Brooklyn are also different. To allow for true inclusive development, long time institutions that still have ownership of their properties are a plus. Much of the publicly owned parcels are also potential catalytic opportunities. Especially, with the recent mayoral and council election results.
Redevelopment in Brooklyn LaVilla, DT, etc. can co-exist, as they can be complimentary from a market-based perspective.
I'm curious how useful/relevant the Neighborhood Development Strategy (https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?id=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2FLaVilla%2DNeighborhood%2DDevelopment%2DStrategy%2Epdf&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments&ga=1) or Heritage Plan (https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?id=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2F200706%20LEVS%20Park%20and%20LaVilla%20Heritage%20Plan%2Epdf&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments&ga=1) have been, if at all, to these efforts.
^They've been in play......with revision of course. The heritage trail project is moving forward, but it will be larger and more nationally prominent than what GAI ever imagined.
I think LaVilla needs a successful private investment to lay down some ground work for the city assemblages to move, personally. I'm hopeful you're accurate on the assemblage opportunities, given the large % that COJ/State owns there. Johnson Commons is a good place to start but even those don't really demonstrate feasible private investment at this very moment.
^That's what I can't reveal at this point but there's something in the works.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 26, 2023, 11:36:45 PM
Ritz Theatre District? Anything about that? I don't think I've seen the concept before.
It always struck me as incredibly strange that the LaVilla School of the Arts is so intentionally sprawling. Just looking on a map I don't see why the school couldn't have been entirely contained to south of Church Street instead of using like eight blocks.
Here's some old newspaper clips:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/LaVilla-Newspaper-Clippings/i-Q9wmgR9/0/946d98c9/X3/20221112_142648-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/History/LaVilla-Newspaper-Clippings/i-9FFbFvL/0/83061824/X3/20221112_152214-X3.jpg)
The desire was to restore the entire Davis Street strip into a mixed-use district featuring restaurants, shops, entertainment venues, etc. that would have been anchored by a rehabilitated Ritz. COJ eventually came in, ripped everything down, built the Ritz and then took it out of community control. Decades have passed and much of the vacant lots still remain and the Ritz is completely underutilized.
Sad what they did to my old neighborhood. When me and my Mom lived there in the early to late 60's it was vibrant, people everywhere, music blaring out of the bars, taverns and clubs, and I went to the Ritz as a boy many times, and, the Ritz was not the only black owned theater in LaVilla; there was the Roosevelt Theater which was two blocks from where we lived on Duval (826 West Duval), and the Strand Theater which was further east on Ashley going towards downtown. That first photo brought back many memories as I used to run, and walk during the summer when school was out, all around that area of town. Many bars and taverns were on Davis, hat shops, Barber Shops (they had a Barber College on the corner of Davis and Beaver I believe), clothing shops, restaurants, the Roosevelt Theater had a small fast food type restaurant that was out of this world. I remember on Ashley a bar called "El Chico" that had a big neon cactus in front of it that lit up at night. Jacksonville was alive and abuzz in those days. Most all of the clubs and bars back then had neon lights in front of them as did the tall buildings downtown. LaVilla was also abuzz with activity in those days. We moved to Fort Myers in 1968 and the next time I visited LaVilla was after I had graduated from High School and joined the U.S. Navy (in mid 1975 I believe); it was run down and drug infested, and by that time many of the businesses were either boarded up and out of business or were just barely hanging on. Memories.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2023, 07:55:18 PM
^That's what I can't reveal at this point but there's something in the works.
Hope the best for it! Will patiently wait haha.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 27, 2023, 07:56:33 PM
The desire was to restore the entire Davis Street strip into a mixed-use district featuring restaurants, shops, entertainment venues, etc. that would have been anchored by a rehabilitated Ritz. COJ eventually came in, ripped everything down, built the Ritz and then took it out of community control. Decades have passed and much of the vacant lots still remain and the Ritz is completely underutilized.
Wow, real missed opportunity. Probably would have needed housing too but that looks like it would have been a great start. Looking at the area now I definitely get the sense of "we tried building a new suburban mall here, why didn't it work?"
Definitely hoping the community has a chance to actually develop a vision for the neighborhood.
^At the time, it was still a compact neighborhood with lots of housing. The change in density and built environment is staggering as a result of the 1990s River City Renaissance plan. Davis Street is completely unrecognizable today.
Channel 4 declared on Twitter (https://x.com/wjxt4/status/1725650064310161518?s=20) that Jacksonville city leaders say the current Duval County Jail is falling apart and millions needs to be spent right now.
The article goes into more detail, calling for $16 million to be spent on short-term repairs for both facilities.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/11/17/millions-of-dollars-is-needed-to-fix-structural-and-safety-issues-at-duval-county-jail/
It costs money to maintain big buildings. I'm surprised its only $16 million, considering the decades of poor maintenance. It's not in danger of collapsing, which is how the headline makes it seem.
Larger-scale public/private buildings (jails, stadiums, hospitals) are typically only designed/built/intended for 40-year life cycles. Some instances justify retrofitting/renovation, but often times it's easier to just start new. Not saying we are there right now with the DT complex now, but it will start to become more of a reality the next several years.
Yes, even building new elsewhere, maintenance on the existing must be done since it will still be in use for years to come. Pay it and figure out the future.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 18, 2023, 05:04:19 PM
Yes, even building new elsewhere, maintenance on the existing must be done since it will still be in use for years to come. Pay it and figure out the future.
While this is true, mentally it is difficult to invest $16 mm into a building that is likely to be demoed in less than a decade. Somebody dropped the ball by letting it get to this point. Mold can be a major liability. It really wouldn't be hard for an appropriate attorney aligned with an asthmatic inmate and the family of a dead inmate to bring a class action lawsuit against the city over this jail.
Maybe the city should look at taking maybe $20-50 million to build a jail annex at the future location of the entire jail. Put the inmates on the worst floors (in terms of physical deterioration) in the annex. Then eventually the annex just becomes an integral part of the new facility. Of course that means picking a location NOW, which frankly needs to happen anyway. It just seems so wasteful to spend big money on a building for just a few years of benefit.
I'm skeptical that this city will have a new jail open in less than 10 years. They could pick a new site tomorrow and it still take a good decade to complete a new structure and be 100% out of the existing structure. Friendship Fountain, Riverfront Plaza, JWJ Park, bringing Amtrak back DT, The Trio, Shipyards Park, etc. are all examples of things that should have taken minimal time to complete, yet will stretch out to 10 years (some are already passed that point) for 100% implementation. However, none of them require 1/2 billion in public funds. $16 million is ultimately a drop in the bucket under that realistic timeline scenario.
Actually Lake, when the city WANTS to do something, it can in a reasonable time frame. Just put a sign that says "Jacksonville Landing" on the roof of the jail and it will be down in no time.
Quote from: vicupstate on November 19, 2023, 07:16:17 PM
Actually Lake, when the city WANTS to do something, it can in a reasonable time frame. Just put a sign that says "Jacksonville Landing" on the roof of the jail and it will be down in no time.
Or, build a jail that the Jaguars can use (maybe to hold the occasional Jag player breaking the law... one just got arrested this month for domestic violence) and we will quickly find whatever it costs to build it. Can even call it Lot J(ail)!
Lol, we're great at tearing stuff down but suck at building anything to replace what we've ripped down. Still waiting on a replacement for the Landing. Can't do that with a jail. We have to successfully build a replacement first before having an implosion party! Maybe pay the Jags to build one. They at least have a proven track record of finishing the projects they start.
What's even scarier than the physical state of the Duval County Jail itself is the medical treatment being given to prisoners by a provider that was recently awarded a no-bid contract by the JSO to handle prisoner care. Over the last four months, four prisoners have died under the care of our city. The Times-Union has filed numerous public records requests dating back to mid-summer, and have gotten nothing back from the JSO to date.
Not that it really matters, as even convicted criminals deserve humane care, but it's important to remember that even those who haven't been formally convicted and are awaiting trial are subject to these conditions.
As a city, we can't allow the JSO and prison to operate as a black hole absent accountability and communication with the public.
On the actual facility itself, it's really hard to know who to believe when it comes to it current condition. Just four or five years ago, Curry and Brian Hughes were saying that the reason they wanted to move it was because it was standing in the way of a unified Sports & Entertainment district spanning down Bay Street. Now, we want to move it because it's mold-ridden and collapsing in on itself? If that's truly the case, then the jail needs to be priority #1 for the city. But these are some of the same people who told us that JEA needed to be sold because it was a sinking ship, that the Hart Bridge ramps needed to be removed to facilitate port activity at Talleyrand, that Lot J needed to be approved or else we'd lose the Jags, and that the Landing was standing in the way of downtown redevelopment.
Would love to see a truly independent analysis of our current prison situation by an entity that didn't have ties to special interests who would benefit from the construction of a new jail.
I'd hope that such an analysis would also look at the root cause of why our prison is so over capacity, and what could be done municipally to curb and reduce the prison population.
QuoteNow, members are grappling with how to handle the immediate problems each building faces while also deciding if the jail should be relocated outside of downtown.
The immediate needs listed for the jail alone totaled more than $9 million. High priced items of more than $1 million each included elevator and electrical infrastructure upgrades. Lower priced items ranged from mold remediation and fire pump replacement to drain repairs and kitchen equipment replacements.
The Police Memorial Building's needs were broken into categories: critical (totaling $3.8 million), necessary but not critical to operation (totaling $290,000) and necessary if the building was not moved in five years (totaling $1.8 million).
Critical needs mentioned by JSO representatives in attendance included updates to the building's air conditioning system and electrical infrastructure.
If addressed, a JSO representative said the funding would be a one time ask to return the facilities to "status quo." Regular maintenance and upkeep would still be needed after.
QuoteMoving the jail out of downtown would "be five years away at best," Salem said. The Police Memorial Building, however, could be moved into an existing building downtown.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2023/11/20/jacksonville-city-council-considers-jail-police-memorial-building-maintenance-ahead-of-move/71591558007/
These current critical needs for the Jail and Police Memorial Building seem to result from deferred (or ignored) continuing maintenance. Previous sheriffs, mayors, and city councils have ignored the maintenance needs of these city assets to "keep taxes down." Now the bill is coming due. The estimated $15 million is about 3% of JSO's $500 million budget. Take the first half of the cost from the current JSO budget for the most critical needs, and find elsewhere in the budget, or from JSO's next year's budget.
The article says "More than 700 people work from the Police Memorial Building now." But, because the JSO has to cover 24 hours in shifts, not all 700 are in the building at the same time - what is the maximum number of employees on-site at one time? Also, does that 700 number include officers who are (or should be) patrolling the streets?