The Downtown jail fallacy

[thelakelander]

It's often claimed that moving Jacksonville's waterfront jail and police station is key to revitalizing Downtown. But is it true? A survey of cities with livelier downtowns than Jacksonville's shows that while there are plenty of good reasons to explore new facilities, this expensive undertaking is highly unlikely to have the claimed effects on Downtown's vibrancy.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-downtown-jail-fallacy/

[Jax_Developer]

These examples just don't correlate to Jacksonville. I'll continue to be an echo chamber on just how insane the idea is that the jail doesn't negatively contribute to downtown. Columbus Ohio.. actively relocating and shutting down their DT jail. Minneapolis is less than 10% the size of Jacksonville, lying within a metro with other municipalities completely surrounding their city limits. The same is true for Fort Lauderdale. Both cities are much more built out, wealthy and have higher demand than DT Jax. All three are perfect examples of dead zones too, existing in government districts with a tremendous lack of retail comparatively to the surrounding areas. However, our jail is on a government island.. existing basically on its own now. So now we let retail & nearby parcels take the hit that government uses otherwise would.

Comparisons to struggling DT's should be made. Not vibrant, well established, wealthy downtowns of large metros. That's not an honest comparison. And why would Columbus Ohio possibly be moving their DT jail. Can't be anything at all related to some of the negative attributes a DT jail brings. Nope, everything else other than that?

[thelakelander]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

[Tacachale]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.

[vicupstate]

The Duval jail certainly LOOKS like a jail more so than the others. I've been to DT Columbus and had no clue the jail was right there. I still don't consider moving the jail a priority, as there is a multitude of lower hanging fruit.

[jcjohnpaint]

Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.

[fsu813]

First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.

[Jax_Developer]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.

Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.

I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.

I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.

[marcuscnelson]

^As I've said before, I don't think anyone here disagrees that the idea of the jail being downtown has potential issues. The actual point of contention is the idea that moving the jail at all costs is alone the silver bullet to revitalize downtown, and that we should pursue doing so regardless of whatever else we could have spent that money on. It's a question of priorities, not virtue.

There's nothing in this article that precludes us from spending limited resources on the smaller ticket items we've never bothered to do in the first place and then if the opportunity presents itself because the jail is already at EOL to move it. That's perfectly fine on its own merits. But rushing to move it ASAP because blowing it up will save downtown somehow doesn't make sense, especially when it's exactly the argument that's been made for plenty of other projects before.

[Tacachale]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.

Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.

I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.

I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.

Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.

Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.

[thelakelander]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

Manhattan should never be used as a comparable to a third tier market like Jax. Memphis, Buffalo, Louisville sure. A sprawling city like Columbus (which is actually a larger core county than Duval and MSA than Jax's) is more appropriate than Manhattan. Lots and good and bad things we can learn from places similar in scale and size.

[Charles Hunter]

First Coast News reported today that the JSO offices were contemplating moving to the Florida Blue building on Riverside Ave, due to a pest infestation.

Would this preclude the School Board from moving to Florida Blue on Riverside? FB is one of the two relocation bids the DCPS is still evaluating - the other being a new build near the JTA's LaVilla site.

[marcuscnelson]

I think it'd be ideal to put DCPS in Florida Blue, and JSO in the JEA/Universal Marion building. JTA site should arguably be mixed-use/residential anyway instead of more office space. Seems we have more than enough downtown right now.

Heck, Truist just announced they're vacating the building with their name on it, could we find space for DCPS there? Or I guess it's too late for them to participate in that process anyway?

[Jax_Developer]

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

There's also the fact that if you take the jail out of Downtown, you're also taking out 750 or more officers and staff, so even if there were a plus there'd be a minus too. Agree that the real question isn't whether the jail should be moved -- that's for JSO and city leaders to determine based on needs and the condition of the jail -- just that improving Downtown shouldn't be a factor in the answer.

Or prematurely moving without contemplating all possibilities. It seems like the conversation has been based around the jail needing to be moved right now or our downtown is doomed, like so many of the decisions that have been made in the last 15 years. The Landing is the perfect example. It was torn down before anyone could even think and now we are dealing with the cost and consequences.

I'm very over this 750 JSO jobs argument. Nobody is relocating the entire police force. So were only talking these 750 jobs.. for 11 acres? I mean really.. for 11 acres people are sweating over 750 jobs? In a downtown central core? Some cities entire urban limits have higher job densities than 200 per acre and we're really sweating over 69 jobs/acre in our central core? The math doesn't math.

I'm all for a plan & a study. I think the idea that the jail hasn't contributed to crime, blight and a lagging CC is just beyond comprehension. This article doesn't highlight what cities with poor urban centers are doing now to change their poor current circumstances. That should be the conversation. This article, and the arguments around moving 750 jobs, are frankly divisive. Otherwise, y'all should try and professionally publish a piece on how urban jails don't detract from vibrant urban centers and see how far that goes.

Yes, moving out 750 jobs for 11 acres that'll still sit vacant for years is not a smart move if downtown revival is the goal. You'd be spending $244 million to replace 750 workers with 0 workers. Talk about math that doesn't math.

Many cities do have higher job density, but many cities also have more vibrant Downtowns than we do, including many that have a downtown jail that's in a more central area than ours. There aren't many cities our size with slower downtowns than ours, and I expect even fewer that have turned everything around by moving their jail.

So removing the most detrimental downtown use will result in vacant use of 11 prime acres of land for years? Huh? Let me guess, the surrounding land won't increase in value either? Oh and while we're at it, we aren't going to finance anything, the city is just going to pony up the cash up front? Yeah.. IDK about all that. I'm more highlighting some misconceptions being illustrated here.. The Northbank has more vacant office space than the entire metro combined.. and don't think that's because the Northbank has a ton of space relative to other parts of the city.. it doesn't. So, this article is defending keeping 750 jobs on the Northbank, at the cost of thousands of professional jobs in substitute? Oh and no retail spending, or dwelling units? When does it stop... What else is making the Northbank a vacuum in a market that is experiencing some of the highest levels of growth nationwide?

Heavy heavy heavy sunk cost cope.

All three illustrate that vibrancy and economic development has happened despite jails being in their downtown. That's a fact that's not really debatable. It doesn't mean we should or should not keep our jail downtown. It simply means, we can do more to improve our downtown regardless of the jail situation.

Sure here's another fact. I could, for profit, build a 30-story skyscraper next a jail (if they had one lol) in Manhattan. Does that mean anything in regards to Jacksonville? No. Using Minneapolis or Fort Lauderdale is exactly that, to a lesser degree. Land scarcity is REAL and you completely disregard that in the article when it is a huge deal in these conversations.  Columbus is a different situation all together, hence why they realized they need to move the thing to less valuable real estate, amongst other very true weights such as the age of the facility, and design of the build.

Manhattan should never be used as a comparable to a third tier market like Jax. Memphis, Buffalo, Louisville sure. A sprawling city like Columbus (which is actually a larger core county than Duval and MSA than Jax's) is more appropriate than Manhattan. Lots and good and bad things we can learn from places similar in scale and size.

Then why use markets like Ft Lauderdale & Minneapolis as a comparison to Jacksonville? They aren't comparable markets either. That's my point with the Manhattan example. Columbus is at least similar to JAX.

[thelakelander]

We're talking about county jails and city's investing in their public facilities and spaces. A city investing or not investing in its public spaces isn't the same as comparing building a skyscraper in Manhattan, Ft Lauderdale, Jax or Palm Coast. A city can and should invest in itself regardless of market size. We'd love to see Jax invest in itself and not make excuses for not doing so. That's basically what the editorial was about. From that perspective, Columbus is very appropriate for a comparison. The Franklin County Jail being in downtown did not stop them from investing in Columbus Commons two blocks away. It didn't stop them from keeping their public streets clean or creating an environment where residents want to be.