Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
200,000ft
2 and 45 breakouts should put us smack dab in the, very competitive, medium size market. A Market I think JAX can do very well in. Especially with a sizable hotel thrown in the mix, and with the Hyatt two blocks away. I foresee a very healthy and expanded future in our convention market. Even with the the Prime Osborne currently putting up good numbers.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
NOTE: I split this Convention Center RFP Discussion off from the Hourglass Pub discussion.
Steve
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 03:42:10 PM
NOTE: I split this Convention Center RFP Discussion off from the Hourglass Pub discussion.
Steve
You're not allowed to split off a thread without making a disparaging remark about the intellect of the last person to make a comment.
House rules, Steve :D
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 03:59:38 PM
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 03:42:10 PM
NOTE: I split this Convention Center RFP Discussion off from the Hourglass Pub discussion.
Steve
You're not allowed to split off a thread without making a disparaging remark about the intellect of the last person to make a comment.
House rules, Steve :D
LOL. ??? 8)
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
Do you not think this site would be much better suited for a convention center than way out by the stadium? We already have a convention center on the edge of downtown.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
What ever came of the Cordish discussions after the Mayor's trip? That is the area along Bay but east of where they want to move the park, correct? Wouldn't that require the Hart coming down and remediation? Or do you see them trying to move that further west as well?
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
What ever came of the Cordish discussions after the Mayor's trip? That is the area along Bay but east of where they want to move the park, correct? Wouldn't that require the Hart coming down and remediation? Or do you see them trying to move that further west as well?
Hints have been dropped, but both the mayor and the Jags are playing it pretty close to the chest.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 16, 2018, 04:46:40 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
What ever came of the Cordish discussions after the Mayor's trip? That is the area along Bay but east of where they want to move the park, correct? Wouldn't that require the Hart coming down and remediation? Or do you see them trying to move that further west as well?
Hints have been dropped, but both the mayor and the Jags are playing it pretty close to the chest.
This is where the Skyway expansion becomes a big deal because I imagine the Jags would like to have a way to easily bridge the mile between this site and the Amphitheater/Stadium. They need dedicated transit. Maybe even using the remaining portion of the Hart Expressway...It is starting to get really interesting. There is a lot of potential here for a unique convention experience if done right.
Will be interesting to see how a new convention center will tie in to Amazon's new downtown headquarters/compound.
Quote from: Todd_Parker on January 16, 2018, 04:54:53 PM
Will be interesting to see how a new convention center will tie in to Amazon's new downtown headquarters/compound.
??? ???
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
What ever came of the Cordish discussions after the Mayor's trip? That is the area along Bay but east of where they want to move the park, correct? Wouldn't that require the Hart coming down and remediation? Or do you see them trying to move that further west as well?
It'd be on the other side of the Hart Bridge ramps. Between Everbank and the Baseball Grounds, over existing parking.
Rip Van Winkle will wake before any of this stuff is complete. Under no circumstance should you hold your breath.
Shipyards not clean, no plan in place for that.
Berkman II waiting for the earth to swallow it up.
Rummell taking over 1000 days to close on a vacant lot. And still may not.
A sincere cluster f#ck.
Why would you need 350 hotel rooms when 1066 are already there? And where are 1,700 cars going to park?
Very strange.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 16, 2018, 05:13:34 PM
Why would you need 350 hotel rooms when 1066 are already there? And where are 1,700 cars going to park?
Very strange.
I think that would play into the 5 star hotel talk of a 4 Seasons or equivalent.
QuoteKhan's vision entails more than $500 million of private investment. At full build-out, there would be 300 to 500 condominiums and 300 to 500 apartments, plus 300,000 to 500,000 square feet of office space. It would have 150,000 to 250,000 square feet for stores and restaurants, and 200 to 500 hotel rooms. A marina would have 250 to 450 boat slips, though final design could boost the number of boat slips to 525.
Quote"He wants to bring a really high-end hotel to Jacksonville," Jaguars executive Mark Lamping, who is working closely on Iguana's development plan, told reporters. "He wants that to be a mixed-use hotel that not only has full amenities, but also has residential (in it). We're a step closer to achieving that, but we've got many more steps ahead of us."
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-04-18/jaguars-owner-shad-khan-picked-develop-shipyards-property-jacksonville
As for the parking, that cannot all happen on those two parcels. Previously, the JEA Generator Station between Bay and Independent had been thrown around along with the State of Florida owned Fuller Warren Building Parking Lot for garages.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 04:44:59 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 16, 2018, 03:19:57 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 02:18:30 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 10, 2018, 09:44:21 AM
^I think we're going to see Convention Center talk pick up considerably, starting today.
A couple days later than I thought, but:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
We will see if your prediction of Khan getting involved with a hotel here, rather than by the stadium with the additional hindrances like Hart removal, plays out. Would it surprise anyone if Bold Events ends up running a new convention center with the Amphitheater for event more additional space for large conventions?
Would certainly fit with Khan and Lamping's tendency to grow impatient and piecemeal aspects of their Shipyards plan to other areas of downtown.
What's described in the RFP basically matches what was in their both their original and latest Shipyards proposal (parking garage, waterfront hotel, exhibition space, meeting rooms), but with more exhibition space. I know Khan wants a five-star hotel, possibly a Four Seasons, but Metro Park (or anywhere else on Shipyards property) isn't going to be shovel-ready for years to come.
(https://snag.gy/OFa9AZ.jpg)
Also wouldn't be surprised at all to see Khan make a major push in the offseason leading up to the annual State of the Franchise for the Cordish development as well, particularly with Jags business just exploding in the last month.
How it all gets paid for, that's a much bigger question.
What ever came of the Cordish discussions after the Mayor's trip? That is the area along Bay but east of where they want to move the park, correct? Wouldn't that require the Hart coming down and remediation? Or do you see them trying to move that further west as well?
It'd be on the other side of the Hart Bridge ramps. Between Everbank and the Baseball Grounds, over existing parking.
Move the Veteran Memorial Wall to a new park as discussed previously?
Quote from: MusicMan on January 16, 2018, 05:13:05 PM
Rip Van Winkle will wake before any of this stuff is complete. Under no circumstance should you hold your breath.
Shipyards not clean, no plan in place for that.
Berkman II waiting for the earth to swallow it up.
Rummell taking over 1000 days to close on a vacant lot. And still may not.
A sincere cluster f#ck.
I think this one is different, and maybe a bit shadier than anything we've seen. IF Iguana were to get the project, you'd need to ask the question as to whether there was a secret handshake made at some point, and if so, when. Before Curry rushed to put $60 million into the 2017 budget for Coastline? Before Curry rushed to put $8 million into the 2018 budget for demolition? That's a lot of public money spent toward potentially handing a developer a layup. I like Curry, and I think Iguana may very well be the best choice, but the mayor is taking secret trips wirh Iguana, and petitioning the FDOT for money to remove the Hart ramps under blatantly false pretenses to push Khan's project. Hell, Curry's kids were on the sideline of the Steelers game Sunday as "Khan's good luck charm." I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and it's pure speculation, and I think Khan has pockets so deep and the vested interest to continue doing great things for Jax, I've just got to wonder if $70 million in public money would have been prioritized in the last 16 months for that parcel if there wasn't a handshake made somewhere with someone.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 16, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Do you not think this site would be much better suited for a convention center than way out by the stadium? We already have a convention center on the edge of downtown.
This is true, but at least there are adjacent entertainment uses and it's not isolated by itself on the edge of downtown. Slight difference. I also feel like in a healthy downtown (which we don't have but we hope to work towards) a CC would not be in the center of activity anyway. Easy walking distance from the vibrant heart of the core? yes. But not taking up multiple blocks of it. Similarly, I also like that it is not on the waterfront.
Quote from: Todd_Parker on January 16, 2018, 04:54:53 PM
Will be interesting to see how a new convention center will tie in to Amazon's new downtown headquarters/compound.
Connected via mini flying saucers. Didn't you see the video? ;D
Ha, just realized it IS on the waterfront...oh well. Make it look nice then!
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 16, 2018, 06:00:56 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 16, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Do you not think this site would be much better suited for a convention center than way out by the stadium? We already have a convention center on the edge of downtown.
This is true, but at least there are adjacent entertainment uses and it's not isolated by itself on the edge of downtown. Slight difference. I also feel like in a healthy downtown (which we don't have but we hope to work towards) a CC would not be in the center of activity anyway. Easy walking distance from the vibrant heart of the core? yes. But not taking up multiple blocks of it. Similarly, I also like that it is not on the waterfront.
That's the thing, with the current state of downtown this site is on the edge. It's basically the last thing before the big gap of COJ and Maxwell House before you hit the sports district. Berkman doesn't count.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 05:45:01 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on January 16, 2018, 05:13:05 PM
Rip Van Winkle will wake before any of this stuff is complete. Under no circumstance should you hold your breath.
Shipyards not clean, no plan in place for that.
Berkman II waiting for the earth to swallow it up.
Rummell taking over 1000 days to close on a vacant lot. And still may not.
A sincere cluster f#ck.
I think this one is different, and maybe a bit shadier than anything we've seen. IF Iguana were to get the project, you'd need to ask the question as to whether there was a secret handshake made at some point, and if so, when. Before Curry rushed to put $60 million into the 2017 budget for Coastline? Before Curry rushed to put $8 million into the 2018 budget for demolition? That's a lot of public money spent toward potentially handing a developer a layup. I like Curry, and I think Iguana may very well be the best choice, but the mayor is taking secret trips wirh Iguana, and petitioning the FDOT for money to remove the Hart ramps under blatantly false pretenses to push Khan's project. Hell, Curry's kids were on the sideline of the Steelers game Sunday as "Khan's good luck charm." I'm not a conspiracy theorist, and it's pure speculation, and I think Khan has pockets so deep and the vested interest to continue doing great things for Jax, I've just got to wonder if $70 million in public money would have been prioritized in the last 16 months for that parcel if there wasn't a handshake made somewhere with someone.
I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case. At least backroom talks that give Khan an edge on the situation, more time to prepare and an RFP tailored to what he wants to build.
Thanks a lot to squeeze on that site. I'll be interested to see what Khan comes up with.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 16, 2018, 05:13:34 PM
Why would you need 350 hotel rooms when 1066 are already there? And where are 1,700 cars going to park?
Very strange.
Why are 1700 spots necessary? Can anyone benchmark this? Whenever I visit the core of downtown Jax, it feels overladen with parking garages already, and it seems that lately garage proposals are crowding the development pipeline. Is the only way to revive downtown Jax to make sure people don't have to walk and engage the street any more than they would at the new Costco on Collins Avenue?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 16, 2018, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on January 16, 2018, 05:13:34 PM
Why would you need 350 hotel rooms when 1066 are already there? And where are 1,700 cars going to park?
Very strange.
Why are 1700 spots necessary? Can anyone benchmark this? Whenever I visit the core of downtown Jax, it feels overladen with parking garages already, and it seems that lately garage proposals are crowding the development pipeline. Is the only way to revive downtown Jax is in making sure people don't have to walk and engage the street any more than they would at the new Costco on Collins Avenue?
I don't think it is possible for that site. The Kings Avenue Garage is 1,700 and would potentially take up the whole two blocks by itself. You would have to go vertical in a big way. I just think the RFP is poorly worded. Maybe an option would to maybe take out the Annex Garage and replace it with a much bigger version (hopefully with retail) and maybe secure another site such as the JEA property as discussed.
KenFSU, I sure as heck hope Shad is interested enough and Mark Lamping is interested enough that some conversations have been had, some open speculation shared, and some "it sure would be nice" wishful thinking openly expressed.
We need to make things happen, and the moment is now.
Quote from: RattlerGator on January 16, 2018, 09:52:40 PM
KenFSU, I sure as heck hope Shad is interested enough and Mark Lamping is interested enough that some conversations have been had, some open speculation shared, and some "it sure would be nice" wishful thinking openly expressed.
We need to make things happen, and the moment is now.
Totally agree, I'm not against it.
I just think there should always be transparency when public money is involved.
Frankly, I can't see many developers without the vested interested that the Jaguars have taking a chance on a somewhat risky project.
Also, I found this line from the Times-Union write up to be a little bit odd:
QuoteThe property available for the development also could include the area that used to have a surface parking deck for the old county courthouse. The city is demolishing that parking area, which was built on piers over the water where the St. Johns River flows past the property.
Unless I'm reading it wrong or it's poorly written, it almost suggests that the section of Coastline currently being demo'd could eventually be rebuilt and developed on top of.
Also interesting to me how, from the Daily Record's description, the resolution/imminent RFP seems as concerned, if not more concerned, with the convention center's synergy with the Sports Complex (Everbank is a full mile to the east from the project site) than it is with the CBD (immediately adjacent to the west).
QuoteProject information in the eight-page resolution states a new convention center, hotel and parking garage would "be an immediate enhancement to the financial viability and dynamism of surrounding facilities in the Urban Core and the Sports Complex, and to the City of Jacksonville in general."
It said the DIA expects the project "will exemplify exceptional architecture that complements the vitality of downtown Jacksonville" and "function in harmony with, and support the activities and events of the Riverfront and the Sports Complex."
A good convention center with parking and hotel/restaurant/entertainment complex should do well by the stadiums where it can share all those lots not being used most of the year, have a lot more room to access/build/expand (as the city grows), and be on the river. Would also have synergies with the arena, stadium, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, Daily's Place, etc. Note that Orlando's convention center was built miles from its downtown and it hasn't suffered. Proper execution may be more important than location in the final analysis.
If you put it at the old City Hall, space is much more confined, access and expansion is more limited/impossible as a result (can you see fleets of those large semi's delivering exhibition and large meeting items and materials?), and it will likely just be surrounded with more parking garages lacking retail to insure its failure ;D. Building back over the water is also both expensive and destined for maintenance/storm issues for a lifetime.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 16, 2018, 10:45:41 PM
Unless I'm reading it wrong or it's poorly written, it almost suggests that the section of Coastline currently being demo'd could eventually be rebuilt and developed on top of.
The city owns the submerged land so the powers to be could always build back on top of it.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 16, 2018, 11:03:45 PM
A good convention center with parking and hotel/restaurant/entertainment complex should do well by the stadiums where it can share all those lots not being used most of the year, have a lot more room to access/build/expand (as the city grows), and be on the river. Would also have synergies with the arena, stadium, baseball grounds, fairgrounds, Daily's Place, etc. Note that Orlando's convention center was built miles from its downtown and it hasn't suffered. Proper execution may be more important than location in the final analysis.
If you put it at the old City Hall, space is much more confined, access and expansion is more limited/impossible as a result (can you see fleets of those large semi's delivering exhibition and large meeting items and materials?), and it will likely just be surrounded with more parking garages lacking retail to insure its failure ;D. Building back over the water is also both expensive and destined for maintenance/storm issues for a lifetime.
I agree with this preliminary assessment. I just don't think a convention center is a great idea for the old courthouse and city hall annex areas. In addition to the area being space contrained and requiring more garage structures, I just think the scale of an exhibition hall takes away from the bustling village vibe that I hope can come to that part of the core. Cluster all the mega-plexes for large assemblies in one area (sports district), and fill the inner core areas with a density of pedestrian accessible, more human-scale structures to create a village vibe, i.e. boutiques and artisanal posts and culinary retreats...
Orlando is a different animal. That place was Lakeland before Disney came to Central Florida. The convention center is in the heart of its tourism industry. Only over the last 20-25 years has Downtown Orlando grown into a fairly large CBD. Also an interesting model to look at is the convention center in DT Seattle. It's a compact site with a vertical convention center with street level retail space and hotel/office space above. It's everything you would not exoect the average convention center to be. I don't know if Jax needs a 350 room hotel and 200k SF of exhibition space, but it will be interesting to see what the response is. My guess is, like the Cordish project, this feels like another piece of the Jag's Shipyards proposal being built elsewhere.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
Orlando is a different animal. That place was Lakeland before Disney came to Central Florida. The convention center is in the heart of its tourism industry. Only over the last 20-25 years has Downtown Orlando grown into a fairly large CBD. Also an interesting model to look at is the convention center in DT Seattle. It's a compact site with a vertical convention center with street level retail space and hotel/office space above. It's everything you would not exoect the average convention center to be. I don't know if Jax needs a 350 room hotel and 200k SF of exhibition space, but it will be interesting to see what the response is. My guess is, like the Cordish project, this feels like another piece of the Jag's Shipyards proposal being built elsewhere.
The Washington State Convention Center should be Jax's model. It is beautiful and fits perfectly in the urban landscape. It has 205,700 worth of exhibition space which is about what the RPF asks for. It also has a Grand Hyatt attached to it. I honestly think it may make more sense for the Berkman II to become a hotel with the city's control over the property now than one right on site but we will see.
What is the deal with the Cordish project? Is that moving forward for sure?
When Amazon builds its 50,000 employee HQ's in the stadium district, we will have "Downtown East" and they will support a massive convention center all by themselves. Think what it would take just to host the company Xmas party 8). And, all will be good in J'ville!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 17, 2018, 12:25:42 AM
When Amazon builds its 50,000 employee HQ's in the stadium district, we will have "Downtown East" and they will support a massive convention center all by themselves. Think what it would take just to host the company Xmas party 8). And, all will be good in J'ville!
Damn straight! It's been too long since this city's had a sugar daddy to fix all of our problems!
All Praise to the Mighty Bezos!
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
Also an interesting model to look at is the convention center in DT Seattle. It's a compact site with a vertical convention center with street level retail space and hotel/office space above. It's everything you would not exoect the average convention center to be.
The Seattle convention center is too small and causes Seattle to miss a ton of conventions. The city/state are about to build a 1.2 billion expansion of it. The reason it is so costly is because of the location. If they would have built it near the sports complexes, the expansion would be waaaaaay less, because the warehouse land south of the stadiums is relatively cheap.
Convention centers really should be at the edge of the downtown, so patrons have access to downtown, but you don't fill downtown with giant windowless boxes. In my opinion, the shipyards would be a perfect spot, plus it has access to an amphitheater for keynotes etc. What we really need is for downtown to grow out to the sports complexes so it sits literally at the edge of downtown, instead of a mile from it.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
My guess is, like the Cordish project, this feels like another piece of the Jag's Shipyards proposal being built elsewhere.
Agreed.
But . . . that, from your perspective, is a *good* thing right?
The coming infrastructure push from President Trump (by the way, are you self-assured doubters still so doubtful one year in ? ? ? ) will likely have some nuggets for Big Duval. I think the City, and Iguana, see a unique opportunity to duplicate the dynamism of Indianapolis' sports district. A unique opportunity in (contrary to Ennis' stubborn take) an absolutely unique city.
A linear, walkable district on both sides of the river that conceptually says to hell with slavish central business concepts that simply don't apply to this River City with suburban beaches.
Beautiful beaches, wonderful waterways, active downtown . . . Duval!We're damn close to making this happen. Contrary to what many of y'all have suspected, the Cordish opportunity (especially when combined with the Rummell District) along with the federal infrastructure push is the key. Given the prominence of Comcast/Xfinity in Northeast Florida, could an
Xfinity Live facility be in our near future?
http://www.visitphilly.com/sports/philadelphia/xfinity-live-philadelphia/
Yeah, baby. Make it happen, Mr. Mayor.
Quote from: Lostwave on January 17, 2018, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:32:14 PM
Also an interesting model to look at is the convention center in DT Seattle. It's a compact site with a vertical convention center with street level retail space and hotel/office space above. It's everything you would not exoect the average convention center to be.
The Seattle convention center is too small and causes Seattle to miss a ton of conventions. The city/state are about to build a 1.2 billion expansion of it. The reason it is so costly is because of the location. If they would have built it near the sports complexes, the expansion would be waaaaaay less, because the warehouse land south of the stadiums is relatively cheap.
Convention centers really should be at the edge of the downtown, so patrons have access to downtown, but you don't fill downtown with giant windowless boxes. In my opinion, the shipyards would be a perfect spot, plus it has access to an amphitheater for keynotes etc. What we really need is for downtown to grow out to the sports complexes so it sits literally at the edge of downtown, instead of a mile from it.
I think our point for a long time has been that the space is not too small for the convention market we would be in. Also, there is room to expand eventually where the Police Station is which was talked about by the task force in 2011.
Yes, scale is important when comparing the two. 200k SF of convention space may be too small for Seattle. However, Seattle is an international destination that's nearly 3 times larger than Jax. The courthouse site is on the edge of Jax's actual CBD and it's highly questionable that Jax could even fill 200k SF of exhibition space. I wouldn't be surprised if they get back responses that call for phased expansion to 200k SF when there's a market demand for that much SF. We've already know the results of building a convention center a mile away from the core. The Prime Osborn opened 32 years ago with 78,500SF of exhibition space and its isolated location has proved to be a detriment. For where Jax is right now, the old courthouse site is fine. It could be another 30 or 40 years down the road before Jax outgrows 200k SF of exhibition space. When that happens, it will probably be time to replace the police station and county jail across the street anyway. So when the time comes, that's an excellent adjacent publibly owned location for potential expansion needs.
Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.
Lake,
Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?
Also, is it just me, or are these Cordish projects being talked about very similar to the Landing and the festival marketplace idea? Could the Mayor's push for the Landing have something to do with wanting Cordish to revitalize it or is it for certain going near the stadium as are most Cordish developments?
I'm sorry, but this is getting ridiculous. The city needs a huge dose of humility. Maybe it's the same arrogance that keeps them from giving away land to private development or expecting much higher prices for downtown land sales than bids received.
Didn't a recent study say there isn't enough demand for a new convention center in Jax, although interest levels changed when shown pictures of a future, enhanced downtown? Look - Downtown Jax has great potential, but it currently sucks, and will suck for the foreseeable future. Work on it sucking a lot less, and then start the discussion on a convention center when there's a real and deep appeal to downtown for both locals and tourists, and the convention demand is intuitive.
Maybe if people start understanding how much downtown Jax sucks and we don't sugar coat that, there will be even more of a call to action and sustained leadership on its revival.
This is an RFP. Even if they get a good response, you're years away from seeing something built. I don't think issuing a RFP now is crazy if that's the vision for that site. Heck, I wish they'd issue RFPs for all the land they're sitting on downtown. We'll find out real quick what the demand is.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 17, 2018, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.
Lake,
Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?
I think Berkman II is completed before anything with a convention center materializes.
Is a hotel really needed with the project with the Hyatt right next door ?
What if Berkman became a Marriott business hotel and condo combo? Speaking of Seattle, the downtown convention center has hotels all over the place within easy walking distance.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 17, 2018, 12:15:53 PMAlso, is it just me, or are these Cordish projects being talked about very similar to the Landing and the festival marketplace idea? Could the Mayor's push for the Landing have something to do with wanting Cordish to revitalize it or is it for certain going near the stadium as are most Cordish developments?
Cordish is 2010's Rouse Company.
In terms of the entertainment district that Curry has been hinting at, he's 100 percent laser focused on the parking lots between the stadium and the Baseball Grounds. Not the big lot next to Daily's Place, but the one to the north, with the entertainment complex overlooking the Baseball Grounds. Depending on design, the veteran's wall may need to be moved or designed around.
Zero chance he's looking at the Landing, and if anything, an added bonus for Curry of a Cordish project at the sports complex would probably come in furthering rendering today's Landing obsolete and throwing a subtle f-you Sleiman's way.
100% agree with Ennis on the courthouse site vs. the sports complex.
It's enough on the periphery of the CBD that it's not going to create a massive dead zone (the RFP requires a retail and restaurant component as well, I believe), but it still puts convention attendees within walking distance of numerous hotels (including the proposed Indigo and Courtyard Marriott at the Trio), restaurants, bars, etc.
Other might disagree, but if you're going to build a mile to the east of downtown, it ain't that different than building at the the Town Center.
When those thousands of attendees pour out of our convention center, where do we want them going? A big box Landing 2.0, or onto our downtown streets. Into Bellwether, the Cowford Chophouse, Morton's, or jumping the Skyway to Ruth's Chris or the Charthouse. Onto the rooftop bars at the Trio and Indigo. The Elbow for drinks. Walking across the Main Street Bridge or along the Riverwalk. Hemming Park. 1904. Into our museums. Which experience is going to give them a stronger lasting memory and a better sense of what Jacksonville is all about, and which experience is going to help transform downtown Jacksonville into a thriving CBD, rather than an island unto itself.
A strong transit connection between the proposed site and the sports complex would provide the best of both worlds.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 12:38:54 PM
This is an RFP. Even if they get a good response, you're years away from seeing something built. I don't think issuing a RFP now is crazy if that's the vision for that site. Heck, I wish they'd issue RFPs for all the land they're sitting on downtown. We'll find out real quick what the demand is.
Isn't it preliminary to commit this site to a convention center? Once downtown no longer sucks, maybe there will be a better use of the property. You guys are actually there and may have a better sense of this, but let's just say Curry moves forward with some sort of entertainment district very close to the stadium grounds, maybe with Cordish or someone else, then a convention center in the stadium district might make sense. Yes, I know, the Hyatt is right there and needs a center for viability, but again, I just think we're putting the cart before the horse with this waste of time. More RFPs for turning city-owned property into a draw for locals, regional inhabitants, national and international tourists, please.
^Site aside, the funniest part of the whole story to me is that we commissioned a study clearly demonstrating that the demand wasn't currently there for Jacksonville as a convention destination and that building a new convention center wasn't a prudent investment at this point. Yet we're issuing an RFP based on the fact that when we showed respondents best-case renderings of billions of dollars in riverfront development that may or may not ever materialize, they said, "maybe!"
That said, if someone is willing to develop the site at minimal public cost and run the convention center for profit like AEG is doing in Los Angeles, more power to Jax. It'd put more bodies on the streets in the CBD, and allow the Prime Osborne to be returned to its intended use.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 17, 2018, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.
Lake,
Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?
I think Berkman II is completed before anything with a convention center materializes.
Are they still thinking mixed use commercial and apartments/condos? Hopefully that is close and the Mayor is applying pressure where needed because getting that built was one of his priorities along with the Trio.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 17, 2018, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 12:38:54 PM
This is an RFP. Even if they get a good response, you're years away from seeing something built. I don't think issuing a RFP now is crazy if that's the vision for that site. Heck, I wish they'd issue RFPs for all the land they're sitting on downtown. We'll find out real quick what the demand is.
Isn't it preliminary to commit this site to a convention center? Once downtown no longer sucks, maybe there will be a better use of the property. You guys are actually there and may have a better sense of this, but let's just say Curry moves forward with some sort of entertainment district very close to the stadium grounds, maybe with Cordish or someone else, then a convention center in the stadium district might make sense. Yes, I know, the Hyatt is right there and needs a center for viability, but again, I just think we're putting the cart before the horse with this waste of time. More RFPs for turning city-owned property into a draw for locals, regional inhabitants, national and international tourists, please.
We've been beating this convention center site stuff for at least 20 years now. It will take a lot more than a modern Landing (Cordish) and Shipyard entertainment dreams (decades away anyway) to make a strong case for doing a Prime Osborn 2.0. Similiar talk of complementing development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn was also discussed/proposed back in the 1980s. 30 years later, we're still waiting. IMO, this one is a case of keeping it simple and not overcomplicating the basic reasons of why moving the convention center location from the Prime Osborn has been discussed for decades.
If we are being honest the whole thing seems like a pipe dream.
a CC that is not feasible at all according to a brand new study
adding 350 rooms when a 1000+ room hotel is already there and DT occupancy is tepid at best.
1,700 parking spaces plus retail plus the new CC in a area the size of 2-4 city blocks?
None of this makes any sense.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 02:56:31 PM
Similiar talk of complementing development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn was also discussed/proposed back in the 1980s. 30 years later, we're still waiting. IMO, this one is a case of keeping it simple and not overcomplicating the basic reasons of why moving the convention center location from the Prime Osborn has been discussed for decades.
Ironically, I think we might have seen more development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn had we built Metro Park as originally planned in the urban core as a public greenway/esplanade connecting the convention center to the Landing/riverfront, rather than moving it out to the sports complex to die.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 17, 2018, 02:53:50 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 17, 2018, 12:15:53 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 17, 2018, 09:44:12 AM
Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.
Lake,
Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?
I think Berkman II is completed before anything with a convention center materializes.
Are they still thinking mixed use commercial and apartments/condos? Hopefully that is close and the Mayor is applying pressure where needed because getting that built was one of his priorities along with the Trio.
That is still the rumor, yes.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 17, 2018, 02:45:37 PM
^Site aside, the funniest part of the whole story to me is that we commissioned a study clearly demonstrating that the demand wasn't currently there for Jacksonville as a convention destination and that building a new convention center wasn't a prudent investment at this point. Yet we're issuing an RFP based on the fact that when we showed respondents best-case renderings of billions of dollars in riverfront development that may or may not ever materialize, they said, "maybe!"
That said, if someone is willing to develop the site at minimal public cost and run the convention center for profit like AEG is doing in Los Angeles, more power to Jax. It'd put more bodies on the streets in the CBD, and allow the Prime Osborne to be returned to its intended use.
One way or another, there will be some significant public contribution to this happening. However, I think you are probably once again hinting at Bold Events running a convention center that has synergy with the stadium and the Jaguars' interests. If Jax is to host a draft in the future, college football national championship, other big events Shad may want, or even Super Bowl, there needs to be a better convention area and that site would be very convenient to the stadium (other than Indy, ATL, and maybe Charlotte and Nashville, this location would be the most convenient convention center currently in the NFL). It would not surprise me if Bold Events is running programming at the Arena, a new convention center, the stadium, baseball field and performing arts center in the near future. That's why they will have the Cordish between the arena, baseball field, and stadium, and within a 15 minute walk of a convention center with probably shuttles going in and out towards the area as well if not an already in place Skyway automated car system. The ideal spot for a Cordish development is where FCN currently is btw, right on Bay St across from Intuition and the future development cluster on A Phillip Randolph which is only a 10 minute walk from the old Courthouse. Remember, those parking spaces by the baseball stadium are also a big deal to the Jags as an additional source of revenue (check out link below about the Panthers).
My guess, there have been off the record discussions. Khan will sweep in with a deal similar to the amphitheater where he gets to run it and make the income, splits the up front costs 50/50 with the city, and cements the Jaguars control over the area/events around the stadium which is very important to them as a $2.075 billion business (the third largest company in Jacksonville behind CSX and Fidelity). For example, if it is a cost of $250 million, they split that evenly. The city owns it and pays for the maintenance but Bold Events run the center. The convention center will push Jags stuff all the time with basically free advertising long term. Then, after there is a plan in place for the convention center, they will look to most efficiently bridge the gap between the convention center and the stadium on the Shipyards land that is still years away from being developed on account of demand, remediation, Hart Expressway and finances.
Also, within a decade, the Jags will be looking to do a major renovation on the stadium that includes some sort of roof. Who knows what that looks like yet but it is coming whether like Miami or LA (see LA's new stadium https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/11/take-a-look-inside-l-a-s-new-nfl-stadium-future-home-of-the-rams-and-chargers/). See the Panthers wanting a new domed stadium potentially and 20,000 parking spots (https://247sports.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/Bolt/Local-ownership-group-looking-to-buy-Panthers-wants-to-see-dome-stadium-built-113248177).
Quote from: vicupstate on January 17, 2018, 02:57:58 PM
If we are being honest the whole thing seems like a pipe dream.
a CC that is not feasible at all according to a brand new study
adding 350 rooms when a 1000+ room hotel is already there and DT occupancy is tepid at best.
1,700 parking spaces plus retail plus the new CC in a area the size of 2-4 city blocks?
None of this makes any sense.
Gonna quote from an old post, but I actually ran some numbers a little over a year ago. Since then, RevPAR and ADR have both increased pretty significantly for downtown hotels, to $81.93 and $124.35 respectively, while downtown occupancy rate has remained relatively stable at 65.9% (source: DVI). From work I've been doing with the city in this specific area, I also know that 2017 closed strong and numbers are trending positively going into 2018.
I think we could comfortably absorb the Marriott at the Trio (131 rooms), Hotel Indigo (90 rooms), and another 350 rooms at the convention center. Particularly with downtown's positive momentum, projects in the pipeline, and new business we could expect from the conventions.
QuoteQuote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 11:23:07 PM
Was just doing a little more research on the health of our downtown hotel scene.
Here's where we stand vs. national average.
(https://s13.postimg.org/z3uj5zlxj/Jax.png)
Occupancy is very slightly above national average, and ADR (average daily rate) and revpar (revenue per available room) are below.
Overall, these numbers aren't nearly as bad as I would have thought considering how anemic our downtown can be, and I would make an educated guess that the lower ADR (and subsequently, lower revpar) is more a reflection of lower costs for all housing in Jacksonville relative national average than it is a reflection of rates being depressed by excess supply or limited demand.
(https://s15.postimg.org/oq8jcp5bf/COL.png)
To me, these numbers suggest that an additional hotel may not be needed at the moment, but as long as it was differentiated by location, class, or type, it wouldn't automatically put other hotels out of business or massively depress rates either.
Let's do a little math, just as a fun exercise.
We've got 2,372 hotel rooms currently in downtown Jacksonville, per the most recent DVI report.
If 67% of those rooms are occupied on any given night, that puts market demand at roughly 1,600 rooms per night in downtown Jacksonville.
The best benchmarks that I can find put break-even occupancy at 55.5% for the average hotel, though these numbers can obviously vary wildly based on other variables (ADR, property type, operating expenses, debt service, etc.). But, just for the purpose of the exercise, let's use 55.5% as a rule of thumb for sustainability.
Assuming a perfect vacuum of unicorns and rainbows where demand remains perfectly unchanged and every hotel performs equally, this suggests that downtown Jacksonville could currently absorb another 513 hotel rooms without putting anyone under. Cannibalization would surely take place, but everyone should survive.
A few things this could tell us, heavily qualified by the fact that we're talking broad generalizations here (read: talking out of our ass), not performing any type of legit market research:
1) In the absence of those with vested interests in downtown Jacksonville (Khan, Rummell, Adkins, and the owners of Berkman 2), I doubt many outside investors are chomping at the bit to develop hotel properties in our urban core. As noted above, 70-75% occupancy tends to be when developers start to take note. We do have steadily increasing ADRs in our favor, but they're still low.
2) All things held constant, our urban market can't possibly absorb every one of the hotel projects that we've heard about in the last 12 months. The up to 350 rooms proposed by Khan, plus the 200 proposed for the District, plus the 131 proposed by Adkins at the Trio, plus 206 rooms at a phantom Berkman 2 hotel (assuming one-to-one with condos), would cannibalize the shit out of existing hotels and drive average occupancy down to a disastrous 46% if all were to magically come on line.
3) That said, there's certainly plenty of reason to expect the quantity demanded of hotel rooms in downtown Jacksonville to pick up in the next few years. Daily's Place will bring dozens of new events to the downtown core each year. The new convention center/conference space that Khan has been discussing should bring more visitors to town. The District should break ground next year. New additions to our medical centers should draw more out-of-towners. Who knows what will happen with the Shipyards or Met Park. Barring economic collapse, that existing market demand of 1,600 rooms per night should continue to climb as development comes on board.
4) That said, we'd need close to 2,100 rooms per night booked (+31%) to get back to even a 60% occupancy rate if all those extra rooms were to suddenly flood the market.
5) To me, the scenario with the best chance of success in the next couple of years would be the addition of a 300-room luxury hotel by Shad Khan's group, and the addition of the historic 113-room boutique hotel at the Trio by Adkins (an optimist, I know). Assuming a ten percent bump in market demand as the result of development, these rooms could be absorbed while still maintaining a healthy 63% occupancy rate for downtown Jacksonville. Plus, both offerings would be differentiated from what currently exists. Khan's hotel would bring cache and luxury, and a historic boutique hotel would bring hipster cool. I don't see anything about Berkman II, if finished, that would stand out from the pack, nor do I think the market is going to be there to warrant a 200-room hotel with Phase I of the District.
Anyway, again, pure speculation, but interesting that so many people are floating hotel ideas as of late.
Ive always thought that if a new convention center is built that the prime osborn should be taken over by MOSH. The osborn is a historical building that MOSH could expand into with a look and feel of a big science and history museum.
RFP going out on Jan 31st, open for 60 days.
The JBJ mentioned that the RFP will require a 1,300 space GARAGE. That can't be right.
Same article also referenced a pretty staggering stat. 81% percent of Prime Osborne convention attendees said they were unlikely or highly unlikely to attend another convention in Jacksonville.
It's one problem if we don't have the facilities to attract conferences.
It's a much, much bigger problem if our existing facilities are turning four out of every five visitors off from ever visiting again.
Quote from: JaxVision on January 17, 2018, 07:44:10 PM
Ive always thought that if a new convention center is built that the prime osborn should be taken over by MOSH. The osborn is a historical building that MOSH could expand into with a look and feel of a big science and history museum.
It would be ideal to convert the Prime Osborn back into its original use....a train station. It's the perfect location for bringing Amtrak back downtown, while also serving as a terminus for a future Brightline extension to downtown (https://www.moderncities.com/article/2018-jan-brightline-launches-eyes-expansion-to-other-states). MOSH could certainly be improved, but I think it would be a shame to not bring rail back downtown, with the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center next door now under construction.
Quote from: Dapperdan on January 17, 2018, 01:39:00 PM
Is a hotel really needed with the project with the Hyatt right next door ?
It would be ideal. The Hyatt is okay, but if I'm a developer I propose a more luxury property. At a minimum, something like a Westin, Renaissance, etc. Having a second hotel isn't a bad thing, especially as many business travelers are brand loyalists to the "big 4": Marriott, Hilton, IHG, Starwood (yes, I know Starwood and Marriott are technically one now). I would agree-the Hyatt is too big for the market. I'm not sure how to fix that though.
Here's something I didn't see mentioned... What if part of this push for a new convention center is being driven, at least in part, by Brightline behind closed doors? That would be something.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 17, 2018, 09:23:10 PM
Here's something I didn't see mentioned... What if part of this push for a new convention center is being driven, at least in part, by Brightline behind closed doors? That would be something.
You mean as a ploy to clear up Prime Osborn for a future Brightline station?
I wouldn't bet in favor, but it's not impossible.
Per the Daily Record, convention center garage would be 1,700 spaces (not the 400 + 1300 surface originally reported), a retail component along Bay Street would be required (as would public access to the river), and the RFP window has been widened from 60 to 120 days.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 18, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
Per the Daily Record, convention center garage would be 1,700 spaces (not the 400 + 1300 surface originally reported), a retail component along Bay Street would be required (as would public access to the river), and the RFP window has been widened from 60 to 120 days.
I don't think a 1,700 car garage is possible at that site if you want to have a convention center there as well lol. Most likely, developers may come back and say there needs to be an additional parcel like the JEA land off Independent that is used for an additional garage.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 18, 2018, 02:04:20 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 18, 2018, 12:47:23 PM
Per the Daily Record, convention center garage would be 1,700 spaces (not the 400 + 1300 surface originally reported), a retail component along Bay Street would be required (as would public access to the river), and the RFP window has been widened from 60 to 120 days.
I don't think a 1,700 car garage is possible at that site if you want to have a convention center there as well lol. Most likely, developers may come back and say there needs to be an additional parcel like the JEA land off Independent that is used for an additional garage.
Jax Convention Center be all:
(http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/813d59d106e44efeab9f88f945dbc64b/skinny-building-in-greenwich-village-j063jg.jpg)
;D ;D
Can't prove it but this goes hand in hand with the City being told by All Aboard Florida to Centralize and Consolidate it's mass transit. AAF Jacksonville Segment LLC was incorporated in 2014, but don't be fooled, it's every bit a real estate AND transportation scheme. To Fortress-Flagler Development it is a pure real estate plan with a long life potential for high-rise/mid-rise mixed use lease space growing exponentially. To AAF-Brightline it is a railroad project that serves as a value added keystone to the developer.
Ask yourself why on earth the new JAXIS Jacksonville Intermodal Station is being built off but next to the historic Terminal, AKA:Prime Osborn, but no effort was ever made to build it AT the Prime Osborn property? Now that the RFP is public, looks like the historic terminal is to be vacant once again and the new Convention Center will rise on the Riverfront. Which leave our JAXIS next-door to a big vacant space... Or does it? Since AAF is so tied to real estate, my prediction is the property known as the Prime Osborn is likely to become the next 'Miami Central' project after the Orlando segment opens.
All the pieces fit.
All
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 20, 2018, 12:21:34 PM
Can't prove it but this goes hand in hand with the City being told by All Aboard Florida to Centralize and Consolidate it's mass transit. AAF Jacksonville Segment LLC was incorporated in 2014, but don't be fooled, it's every bit a real estate AND transportation scheme. To Fortress-Flagler Development it is a pure real estate plan with a long life potential for high-rise/mid-rise mixed use lease space growing exponentially. To AAF-Brightline it is a railroad project that serves as a value added keystone to the developer.
Ask yourself why on earth the new JAXIS Jacksonville Intermodal Station is being built off but next to the historic Terminal, AKA:Prime Osborn, but no effort was ever made to build it AT the Prime Osborn property? Now that the RFP is public, looks like the historic terminal is to be vacant once again and the new Convention Center will rise on the Riverfront. Which leave our JAXIS next-door to a big vacant space... Or does it? Since AAF is so tied to real estate, my prediction is the property known as the Prime Osborn is likely to become the next 'Miami Central' project after the Orlando segment opens.
All the pieces fit.
All
This is an interesting proposition. Although I wonder if Brightline/Park Line would actually build train tracks back into the terminal (the way it used to be) or instead add it to the side like the original JRTC plan, in which case they could use the former convention center for TOD.
If this happens, then I wonder what purpose does the Prime Osborne serve and how can we use it?
QuoteHaskell: What the DIA is seeking for convention center goes too far
While he views the latest convention center discussion as "very positive," Haskell said he stands by the findings in the 2011 analysis — that the city should focus its development efforts solely on the exhibit space.
The only element needed is a large exhibition hall, Haskell said. "And the hotel would be a huge mistake."
"We strongly recommend that the city take advantage of the Hyatt," he said. "It has the meeting rooms and food service. Everything other than a 200,000-square-foot exhibit hall is already there."
The 2011 report suggested adding a 350-space parking garage to the convention center plan, but the scope of the current proposal is much larger.
"It's absurd to build 1,700 parking spaces. The kind of conventioneers we want won't drive here and the Hyatt has adequate parking," Haskell said.
Full story:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/haskell-what-the-dia-is-seeking-for-convention-center-goes-too-far
I agree with Haskell on this. I hope that the DIA would be willing to seriously consider proposals that also take advantage of the Hyatt for hotel, meeting and garage space. That would dramatically drop the cost, strengthen existing business and allow space for other uses....increasing the chances of project feasibility.
Haskell makes a ton of sense on this.
Presumably, the hotel being conceived of is Khan's high end one that was originally suggested for the Shipyards.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on January 20, 2018, 06:41:14 PM
If this happens, then I wonder what purpose does the Prime Osborne serve and how can we use it?
It would make a great train station.
Yes, for the last decade the thought has been to turn it back into a train station. Both Amtrak and Brightline could possibly have stops there.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 26, 2018, 10:43:58 AM
I agree with Haskell on this. I hope that the DIA would be willing to seriously consider proposals that also take advantage of the Hyatt for hotel, meeting and garage space. That would dramatically drop the cost, strengthen existing business and allow space for other uses....increasing the chances of project feasibility.
His rendering sucks though - he's proposing demolishing a two story perfect building for a parking garage. Though, I think it's old.
I wouldn't follow his rendering. Those responding to an RFP should be able to come up with their own designs for the courthouse property. However, a proposal that does not include another hotel or duplication of the Hyatt's spaces should not be viewed as a negative. It's actually more realistic.
That's fair. I do personally like the additional hotel but I don't think the plan would fail without it. The other thing - I'd like to know what percentage of America's conventions could fit in 200k, plus what the Hyatt has.
For example, I was looking at the PGA Merchandise Show in Orlando....I was thinking maybe that could fit in 200k SqFt - WRONG! That thing takes up the whole West Concourse of the Orange County Convention Center which is a shade over 1 Million SqFt. There's only a few convention Centers in America that can hold that!
My point is - does a 200k Exhibition space get us in the running for 90% of conventions? 80%? What's that number?
the rendering shows new construction over the river where the parking lot is currently being taken down. Hope that doesn't happen.
If the Berkman 2 actually becomes a Marriott as is rumored, it bolsters the argument to NOT add new rooms to the convention center.
Quote from: Steve on January 26, 2018, 01:14:34 PMMy point is - does a 200k Exhibition space get us in the running for 90% of conventions? 80%? What's that number?
In a previous study (like a decade ago now), it was mentioned that the Prime Osborn was large enough for just 5% of all conventions in the US. It also said that an increase to a 250,000 square foot exhibition hall would increase that figure to 60%.
Quote from: downtownbrown on January 26, 2018, 01:26:04 PM
the rendering shows new construction over the river where the parking lot is currently being taken down. Hope that doesn't happen.
Hot planning!
It's not like the city has an existing multi-million dollar contract to reconfigure the riverwalk around the former parking deck.
The rendering shown was done in 2011. There was no plan to demolish the parking lot back then.
^Oh, I was more generally referencing the Times-Union's assertion that the section of Coastline currently being demolished and reconfigured is fair game for a future convention center.
Seems like a waste to rebuild the Riverwalk around that open water and then potentially knock it down and rebuild over the river again.
Then again, the alternative isn't much better - letting it sit fenced off for five years while we figure out what/if/when we want to do.
Looks like the convention center project is officially open to bids.
Some new details:
- The RFP will be open for three months (August 1st closing)
- At minimum, responses must allow for 350 hotel rooms, 200,000 square feet of public exhibition space, a 40,000-square-foot ballroom, 45 breakout and meeting rooms, and a full-service restaurant. Retail, additional dining, and potential boat slips and a marina have been requested as well.
- Responses must also include a parking garage with at least 1,700 spaces.
- Per the DIA, public incentives will likely be offered, such as "property tax incentives, fees for food, lodging and entertainment, the contribution of land and site preparation in the form of infrastructure, streetscaping or public green space."
- Two month evaluation period, with a shortlist (up to 3 firms) coming around the first of November.
- Presentations from short-listed firms would follow, with the winner working the DIA and City Council on an economic development agreement.
- Once the economic development agreement is in place, the Hyatt next door would be given right of first refusal, presumably to match the offer.
- Jacksonville Historical Preservation Committee gave the green light yesterday for the old Courthouse and Annex to come down, once the city chooses who to contract.
All info via the Daily Record:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-seeking-proposals-from-firms-interested-in-developing-a-new-convention-center-downtown
The one thing I don't understand is the Hyatt's first right of refusal if the city wants to sell the property. Does this mean that after the city selects someone to build the convention center that Hyatt can put there foot down and say "no we want to buy the property now"? If that is the case don't we risk losing months of hard work from all parties involved. Can some elaborate on this?
I seem to remember that the Hyatt's first right of refusal isn't a new thing - like its been a thing for a while as the Courthouse/City Hall's days were numbered when the Hyatt (then Adam's Mark) broke ground, but I could be wrong.
I mean, there are certain advantages that the Hyatt naturally has (which also benefit the city) being next door, because one large facility could be developed.
Do bidders, at least the short-list, get a stipend, if Hyatt exercises their option? It is expensive to prepare a presentation like this. And how long does Hyatt have to act on their option? That is, if Hyatt takes the option, do they have to break ground within "X" months, or it reverts to the selected team? Are there performance milestones - either for Hyatt, or the selected team?
I'm highly skeptical a serious bid even comes in. Hopefully I'm wrong.
Inb4 Noah's ark convention center
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on March 31, 2018, 01:46:58 PM
I'm highly skeptical a serious bid even comes in. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I'm confident that there will be at least one bidder.
Based on Curry's recent history with things like the Hart Bridge ramps and the potential JEA sale, I find it
impossible to believe that he'd prioritize $40 million in spending for the area (Coastline + Courthouse/Annex demolition) if he hasn't already had some pretty talks with someone about developing the property. The urgency from the mayor to get this one specific parcel ready for development seems like a tell to me.
Iguana's still my best guess, but I guess we'll find out on August 1st.
Quote from: Steve on March 31, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
I seem to remember that the Hyatt's first right of refusal isn't a new thing - like its been a thing for a while as the Courthouse/City Hall's days were numbered when the Hyatt (then Adam's Mark) broke ground, but I could be wrong.
I mean, there are certain advantages that the Hyatt naturally has (which also benefit the city) being next door, because one large facility could be developed.
I am 99.8% certain that when the Adam's Mark (now Hyatt) was built they were given the first right of refusal as part of their development deal. The key will be what does that mean exactly, as Charles Hunter mentions. Can they simply buy the land and sit on it or do they have to do something within a certain period of time, and what constitutes 'something'.
I can't imagine anyone submitting a bid for this without the proposal including a very substantial investment by the city. Free land, and serious cash on the order for $50-100 mm would be my guess. They probably would expect to pay no property tax or have the taxes put back into the property in some way.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 02, 2018, 08:55:25 AM
Quote from: Steve on March 31, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
I seem to remember that the Hyatt's first right of refusal isn't a new thing - like its been a thing for a while as the Courthouse/City Hall's days were numbered when the Hyatt (then Adam's Mark) broke ground, but I could be wrong.
I mean, there are certain advantages that the Hyatt naturally has (which also benefit the city) being next door, because one large facility could be developed.
I am 99.8% certain that when the Adam's Mark (now Hyatt) was built they were given the first right of refusal as part of their development deal. The key will be what does that mean exactly, as Charles Hunter mentions. Can they simply buy the land and sit on it or do they have to do something within a certain period of time, and what constitutes 'something'.
I can't imagine anyone submitting a bid for this without the proposal including a very substantial investment by the city. Free land, and serious cash on the order for $50-100 mm would be my guess. They probably would expect to pay no property tax or have the taxes put back into the property in some way.
I don't think someone would ask for THAT much....maybe if Rummell and Munz bid I suppose:)
My feeling is that some sort of Public-Private partnership will be proposed, which makes sense for a development like this. Personally, I think the owners of the Hyatt (Westmont Hospitality) would be great candidates to bid themselves. I read they own something like 500 Hotels, so for them including another smaller hotel wouldn't be a stretch, unless they think they couldn't fill them. In theory, a good convention center handles both.
I'm posting about this in a week where I'm going to Columbus, Ohio for a convention (low Wednesday night is 29 Degrees - yes it's April). The main building is a 375k SqFt facility. I can tell you the convention I'm going to likely takes up 1/3 of that.
Actually I think $50-100 mm would be the floor not the ceiling. These centers simply do not make money and the hotel and other revenue streams would not cover the deficit. A 1,700 car garage is a huge money loser as well. Plus JAX is trying to establish a new convention market in an industry that is overbuilt to begin with.
If you are visiting Columbus for the first time, be sure to visit the Short North Market that is just a couple of blocks from the CC. Columbus is a great city to visit. Be sure to walk/drive around as much as you can. Just blow off the seminars and be a tourist ; )
As much as I complain about Columbus, I've been quite a few times. Outside of the weather it's a great city.
I do agree about the Garage - that's massive. In terms of the Convention Center in general, I sort of look at it as a "loss leader". The Convention Center might not make money, but the idea is everything around it should, and hopefully it doesn't become a money pit.
How much money does the Prime Osborne Lose? How does that compare to projections on a new one?
As an example, Oklahoma City is working on theirs (Article from 2016 below). They're planning for 500k SqFt for $287M. Now, apparently they don't need structured parking to get to 1,200 spaces (700 Center, 500 Hotel-based), but would to get to the 2,000 number they want. Interesting discussion.
http://newsok.com/article/5480802
BTW, I'm still not sure where you're going to get 1,700 spaces, unless it's a tiny footprint garage that's a mile high. I can't see how you get the convention center, hotel, and garage on these two blocks.
It would have to be one VERY vertical center. Perhaps if you can move the JEA water treatment plant a half-block away, then do a garage there?? I'm not in favor of an earlier plan that demo'ed the two story buildings at the corner of Newnan and Bay.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 02, 2018, 11:57:16 AM
Actually I think $50-100 mm would be the floor not the ceiling. These centers simply do not make money and the hotel and other revenue streams would not cover the deficit.
"We have a great opportunity for a high-end hotel/convention center, which this town really needs. It's something we are going to try and work with the city on." - Shad Khan, November 2016
To me, Shad Khan/Iguana is the only potential private partner that makes sense.
1) Shad Khan has stated for years that Jacksonville needs a new convention center; he's expressed interest in partnering with the city on it; it was part of his first two Shipyards plans. As we've seen with Daily's Place and the entertainment complex for Lot J, he's not married to any specific location as much as he is married to the idea of getting it off the ground.
2) The Jaguars are going to announce a 250,000 sf entertainment complex later this month for Lot J that can't be sustained only by game-day activity. A convention center at the Old Courthouse site, linked to the entertainment complex via Bay Street improvements that the Jags already consider critical to the Shipyards project, would potentially drive tens of thousands of additional visits to the entertainment complex, annually.
3) Further, Iguana has already been selected to develop the Shipyards. A thriving convention center adjacent to the Shipyards could only benefit Iguana.
4) Iguana has already started to dip their toe into the convention/events market via Bold Events, including the upcoming One Spark revival. Khan, Lamping and co. consider it a vital revenue stream for the organization. Partnering on a convention center would be a natural evolution for Bold Events.
5) Khan clearly has his heart set on a five-star hotel in Jacksonville, possibly a Four Seasons. Again, you can't sustain that off the back of 8 football games a year. A convention center directly benefits his hotel project, wherever said hotel ends up being built.
The city covers Bay Street improvements, splits the cost of the convention center with the Jags, Jags serve as project manager, Bold Events manages the venue.
Jacksonville gets a badly needed new convention center at 50 cents on the dollar and all the positive tourism and business externalities that come with having a modern facility, the Jaguars get an additional revenue stream for Bold Events and all the positive externalaties for the Shipyards/Lot J/Daily's Place/Khan's hotel that come with having a new convention center in Jacksonville.
Maybe, but don't count the Hyatt ownership out.
Booking a concern isn't the same a booking a large corporate convention. The Hyatt Ownership (plus Hyatt in general) have a LOT of experience in the convention and hotel business.
QuoteThe city covers Bay Street improvements, splits the cost of the convention center with the Jags, Jags serve as project manager, Bold Events manages the venue.
If so, that would easily cover the $100 million in my prior post.
It is pretty much a given that Khan is going to bid and will have an inside track, but Hyatt could be in a position to be a spoiler. Of course, it is probably more likely that they might welcome Khan doing it.
BTW, isn't LOT J a no- go based on contamination? If it is contaminated, why not just go back to the first idea of Shipyards or Met Park?
To answer your question, Vic, Lot J is contaminated, but the Jaguars are confident that it can be cleaned and developed much more quickly than the Shipyards and/or Met Park, particularly when you factor in the ramps. They're going to reveal the project plan at the State of the Franchise event later this month.
I know I may be looking waaaaaay into the future on this. But, what the over/under on the current convention center being retro-fitted for once again being a train station when a new convention center takes off?
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on April 02, 2018, 08:00:59 PM
I know I may be looking waaaaaay into the future on this. But, what the over/under on the current convention center being retro-fitted for once again being a train station when a new convention center takes off?
I remember there being rumors/murmurs about the possibility of Brightline being a quiet mover & shaker in recent events, with the potential goal of making Union Terminal a station for them.
I'm just hoping they'll take the convention center part and make it a Park-Line TOD.
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on April 02, 2018, 08:00:59 PM
I know I may be looking waaaaaay into the future on this. But, what the over/under on the current convention center being retro-fitted for once again being a train station when a new convention center takes off?
Assuming the Convention Center does actually get built, I would say it is virtually certain. What else would you do with it?
Quote from: vicupstate on April 03, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on April 02, 2018, 08:00:59 PM
I know I may be looking waaaaaay into the future on this. But, what the over/under on the current convention center being retro-fitted for once again being a train station when a new convention center takes off?
Assuming the Convention Center does actually get built, I would say it is virtually certain. What else would you do with it?
With its meeting space and stately architecture, it would be a great location for an educational institution of some sort, a museum as well, or both. Eventually, it should have some purpose as a train station as well, especially Amtrack. But if we are counting on Brightline, that may be well into the future.
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 03, 2018, 12:54:33 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 03, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on April 02, 2018, 08:00:59 PM
I know I may be looking waaaaaay into the future on this. But, what the over/under on the current convention center being retro-fitted for once again being a train station when a new convention center takes off?
Assuming the Convention Center does actually get built, I would say it is virtually certain. What else would you do with it?
With its meeting space and stately architecture, it would be a great location for an educational institution of some sort, a museum as well, or both. Eventually, it should have some purpose as a train station as well, especially Amtrack. But if we are counting on Brightline, that may be well into the future.
Amtrak is the key to move from the awful Northside Location. There may be some track work needed as the track to the side of the train station is the FEC Line (next to US1). Amtrak uses the CSX Line (next to US17).
Without millions from an outside source, I don't see Amtrak coming back downtown any time soon. I also don't see anything rail related seriously happening with JTA either. For Jax, it's Brightline or bust for this generation.
QuoteSAG estimated the cost of a 200,000-square-foot exhibit hall could range from $250 million to $430 million. It also calculated that parking spaces could cost $20,000 to $30,000 per space, which works out to be $34 million to $51 million.
The study identified the courthouse annex property as a site for the center.
Jacksonville currently operates the Prime F. Osborn III Convention Center at 1000 Water St., a former railroad terminal built in 1919 in the LaVilla neighborhood.
In 1986, the city converted it into a convention center with 78,000 square feet of exhibition space. There is no nearby hotel.
The SAG report suggested that the center has historically performed below industry standards with annual occupancy below 30 percent. The industry standard is 70 percent occupancy.
Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-seeking-convention-center-proposals
So the RFP was issued Friday last week? My guess is Khan and the Jags have been planning for this for awhile now
Four bids received for demolition of the Courthouse & Annex.
Decision to be made within the next couple of weeks, with a notice to proceed anticipated by the end of next month.
Come April, both properties will be gone.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/companies-submit-bids-to-demolish-former-jacksonville-city-hall-duval-county-courthouse
Well if it's one thing we do well with DT it's blowing things up. Give it another year or so and another sketch of another expensive passive park will materialize from the grave.
good news. I bought property downtown in 2012 just knowing that development was about to begin in a huge way. I should have purchased a place in Wakanda next to the Panther. As in Wakanda Foolami.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2018, 10:47:03 PM
Well if it's one thing we do well with DT it's blowing things up. Give it another year or so and another sketch of another expensive passive park will materialize from the grave.
The solution to bad urbanism is good urbanism. Sadly, a lot of people think it is nature.
In Jacksonville, solutions are not the answer.