RFP Proposed for Convention Center

[Dapperdan]

Is a hotel really needed with the project with the Hyatt right next door ?

[downtownbrown]

What if Berkman became a Marriott business hotel and condo combo?  Speaking of Seattle, the downtown convention center has hotels all over the place within easy walking distance.

[KenFSU]

Also, is it just me, or are these Cordish projects being talked about very similar to the Landing and the festival marketplace idea? Could the Mayor's push for the Landing have something to do with wanting Cordish to revitalize it or is it for certain going near the stadium as are most Cordish developments?

Cordish is 2010's Rouse Company.

In terms of the entertainment district that Curry has been hinting at, he's 100 percent laser focused on the parking lots between the stadium and the Baseball Grounds. Not the big lot next to Daily's Place, but the one to the north, with the entertainment complex overlooking the Baseball Grounds. Depending on design, the veteran's wall may need to be moved or designed around.

Zero chance he's looking at the Landing, and if anything, an added bonus for Curry of a Cordish project at the sports complex would probably come in furthering rendering today's Landing obsolete and throwing a subtle f-you Sleiman's way.

100% agree with Ennis on the courthouse site vs. the sports complex.

It's enough on the periphery of the CBD that it's not going to create a massive dead zone (the RFP requires a retail and restaurant component as well, I believe), but it still puts convention attendees within walking distance of numerous hotels (including the proposed Indigo and Courtyard Marriott at the Trio), restaurants, bars, etc.

Other might disagree, but if you're going to build a mile to the east of downtown, it ain't that different than building at the the Town Center.

When those thousands of attendees pour out of our convention center, where do we want them going? A big box Landing 2.0, or onto our downtown streets. Into Bellwether, the Cowford Chophouse, Morton's, or jumping the Skyway to Ruth's Chris or the Charthouse. Onto the rooftop bars at the Trio and Indigo. The Elbow for drinks. Walking across the Main Street Bridge or along the Riverwalk. Hemming Park. 1904. Into our museums. Which experience is going to give them a stronger lasting memory and a better sense of what Jacksonville is all about, and which experience is going to help transform downtown Jacksonville into a thriving CBD, rather than an island unto itself.

A strong transit connection between the proposed site and the sports complex would provide the best of both worlds.

[jaxnyc79]

This is an RFP. Even if they get a good response, you're years away from seeing something built. I don't think issuing a RFP now is crazy if that's the vision for that site. Heck, I wish they'd issue RFPs for all the land they're sitting on downtown. We'll find out real quick what the demand is.

Isn't it preliminary to commit this site to a convention center?  Once downtown no longer sucks, maybe there will be a better use of the property.  You guys are actually there and may have a better sense of this, but let's just say Curry moves forward with some sort of entertainment district very close to the stadium grounds, maybe with Cordish or someone else, then a convention center in the stadium district might make sense.  Yes, I know, the Hyatt is right there and needs a center for viability, but again, I just think we're putting the cart before the horse with this waste of time.  More RFPs for turning city-owned property into a draw for locals, regional inhabitants, national and international tourists, please.

[KenFSU]

^Site aside, the funniest part of the whole story to me is that we commissioned a study clearly demonstrating that the demand wasn't currently there for Jacksonville as a convention destination and that building a new convention center wasn't a prudent investment at this point. Yet we're issuing an RFP based on the fact that when we showed respondents best-case renderings of billions of dollars in riverfront development that may or may not ever materialize, they said, "maybe!"

That said, if someone is willing to develop the site at minimal public cost and run the convention center for profit like AEG is doing in Los Angeles, more power to Jax. It'd put more bodies on the streets in the CBD, and allow the Prime Osborne to be returned to its intended use.

[FlaBoy]

Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.

Lake,

Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?

I think Berkman II is completed before anything with a convention center materializes.

Are they still thinking mixed use commercial and apartments/condos? Hopefully that is close and the Mayor is applying pressure where needed because getting that built was one of his priorities along with the Trio.

[thelakelander]

This is an RFP. Even if they get a good response, you're years away from seeing something built. I don't think issuing a RFP now is crazy if that's the vision for that site. Heck, I wish they'd issue RFPs for all the land they're sitting on downtown. We'll find out real quick what the demand is.

Isn't it preliminary to commit this site to a convention center?  Once downtown no longer sucks, maybe there will be a better use of the property.  You guys are actually there and may have a better sense of this, but let's just say Curry moves forward with some sort of entertainment district very close to the stadium grounds, maybe with Cordish or someone else, then a convention center in the stadium district might make sense.  Yes, I know, the Hyatt is right there and needs a center for viability, but again, I just think we're putting the cart before the horse with this waste of time.  More RFPs for turning city-owned property into a draw for locals, regional inhabitants, national and international tourists, please.

We've been beating this convention center site stuff for at least 20 years now. It will take a lot more than a modern Landing (Cordish) and Shipyard entertainment dreams (decades away anyway) to make a strong case for doing a Prime Osborn 2.0. Similiar talk of complementing development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn was also discussed/proposed back in the 1980s. 30 years later, we're still waiting. IMO, this one is a case of keeping it simple and not overcomplicating the basic reasons of why moving the convention center location from the Prime Osborn has been discussed for decades.

[vicupstate]

If we are being honest the whole thing seems like a pipe dream.

a CC that is not feasible at all according to a brand new study
adding 350 rooms when a 1000+ room hotel is already there and DT occupancy is tepid at best.
1,700 parking spaces plus retail plus the new CC in a area the size of 2-4 city blocks?

None of this makes any sense.

[KenFSU]

Similiar talk of complementing development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn was also discussed/proposed back in the 1980s. 30 years later, we're still waiting. IMO, this one is a case of keeping it simple and not overcomplicating the basic reasons of why moving the convention center location from the Prime Osborn has been discussed for decades.

Ironically, I think we might have seen more development sprouting up near the Prime Osborn had we built Metro Park as originally planned in the urban core as a public greenway/esplanade connecting the convention center to the Landing/riverfront, rather than moving it out to the sports complex to die.

[downtownbrown]

Also, the west end of the Shipyards is two blocks east. The downfall there is that the land is contaminated and isn't immediately adjacent to the Elbow or Hyatt. So whatever, it cost to build will end up being a lot more expensive, take longer to materialize and your economic benefit isn't any stronger.

Lake,

Thoughts on the future of the Berkman II if they build a convention center a block away?

I think Berkman II is completed before anything with a convention center materializes.

Are they still thinking mixed use commercial and apartments/condos? Hopefully that is close and the Mayor is applying pressure where needed because getting that built was one of his priorities along with the Trio.

That is still the rumor, yes.

[FlaBoy]

^Site aside, the funniest part of the whole story to me is that we commissioned a study clearly demonstrating that the demand wasn't currently there for Jacksonville as a convention destination and that building a new convention center wasn't a prudent investment at this point. Yet we're issuing an RFP based on the fact that when we showed respondents best-case renderings of billions of dollars in riverfront development that may or may not ever materialize, they said, "maybe!"

That said, if someone is willing to develop the site at minimal public cost and run the convention center for profit like AEG is doing in Los Angeles, more power to Jax. It'd put more bodies on the streets in the CBD, and allow the Prime Osborne to be returned to its intended use.

One way or another, there will be some significant public contribution to this happening. However, I think you are probably once again hinting at Bold Events running a convention center that has synergy with the stadium and the Jaguars' interests. If Jax is to host a draft in the future, college football national championship, other big events Shad may want, or even Super Bowl, there needs to be a better convention area and that site would be very convenient to the stadium (other than Indy, ATL, and maybe Charlotte and Nashville, this location would be the most convenient convention center currently in the NFL). It would not surprise me if Bold Events is running programming at the Arena, a new convention center, the stadium, baseball field and performing arts center in the near future. That's why they will have the Cordish between the arena, baseball field, and stadium, and within a 15 minute walk of a convention center with probably shuttles going in and out towards the area as well if not an already in place Skyway automated car system. The ideal spot for a Cordish development is where FCN currently is btw, right on Bay St across from Intuition and the future development cluster on A Phillip Randolph which is only a 10 minute walk from the old Courthouse. Remember, those parking spaces by the baseball stadium are also a big deal to the Jags as an additional source of revenue (check out link below about the Panthers).

My guess, there have been off the record discussions. Khan will sweep in with a deal similar to the amphitheater where he gets to run it and make the income, splits the up front costs 50/50 with the city, and cements the Jaguars control over the area/events around the stadium which is very important to them as a $2.075 billion business (the third largest company in Jacksonville behind CSX and Fidelity). For example, if it is a cost of $250 million, they split that evenly. The city owns it and pays for the maintenance but Bold Events run the center. The convention center will push Jags stuff all the time with basically free advertising long term. Then, after there is a plan in place for the convention center, they will look to most efficiently bridge the gap between the convention center and the stadium on the Shipyards land that is still years away from being developed on account of demand, remediation, Hart Expressway and finances.

Also, within a decade, the Jags will be looking to do a major renovation on the stadium that includes some sort of roof. Who knows what that looks like yet but it is coming whether like Miami or LA (see LA's new stadium https://www.ocregister.com/2017/08/11/take-a-look-inside-l-a-s-new-nfl-stadium-future-home-of-the-rams-and-chargers/). See the Panthers wanting a new domed stadium potentially and 20,000 parking spots (https://247sports.com/nfl/carolina-panthers/Bolt/Local-ownership-group-looking-to-buy-Panthers-wants-to-see-dome-stadium-built-113248177).

[KenFSU]

If we are being honest the whole thing seems like a pipe dream.

a CC that is not feasible at all according to a brand new study
adding 350 rooms when a 1000+ room hotel is already there and DT occupancy is tepid at best.
1,700 parking spaces plus retail plus the new CC in a area the size of 2-4 city blocks?

None of this makes any sense.

Gonna quote from an old post, but I actually ran some numbers a little over a year ago. Since then, RevPAR and ADR have both increased pretty significantly for downtown hotels, to $81.93 and $124.35 respectively, while downtown occupancy rate has remained relatively stable at 65.9% (source: DVI). From work I've been doing with the city in this specific area, I also know that 2017 closed strong and numbers are trending positively going into 2018.

I think we could comfortably absorb the Marriott at the Trio (131 rooms), Hotel Indigo (90 rooms), and another 350 rooms at the convention center. Particularly with downtown's positive momentum, projects in the pipeline, and new business we could expect from the conventions.

Was just doing a little more research on the health of our downtown hotel scene.

Here's where we stand vs. national average.



Occupancy is very slightly above national average, and ADR (average daily rate) and revpar (revenue per available room) are below.

Overall, these numbers aren't nearly as bad as I would have thought considering how anemic our downtown can be, and I would make an educated guess that the lower ADR (and subsequently, lower revpar) is more a reflection of lower costs for all housing in Jacksonville relative national average than it is a reflection of rates being depressed by excess supply or limited demand.



To me, these numbers suggest that an additional hotel may not be needed at the moment, but as long as it was differentiated by location, class, or type, it wouldn't automatically put other hotels out of business or massively depress rates either.

Let's do a little math, just as a fun exercise.

We've got 2,372 hotel rooms currently in downtown Jacksonville, per the most recent DVI report.

If 67% of those rooms are occupied on any given night, that puts market demand at roughly 1,600 rooms per night in downtown Jacksonville.

The best benchmarks that I can find put break-even occupancy at 55.5% for the average hotel, though these numbers can obviously vary wildly based on other variables (ADR, property type, operating expenses, debt service, etc.). But, just for the purpose of the exercise, let's use 55.5% as a rule of thumb for sustainability.

Assuming a perfect vacuum of unicorns and rainbows where demand remains perfectly unchanged and every hotel performs equally, this suggests that downtown Jacksonville could currently absorb another 513 hotel rooms without putting anyone under. Cannibalization would surely take place, but everyone should survive. 

A few things this could tell us, heavily qualified by the fact that we're talking broad generalizations here (read: talking out of our ass), not performing any type of legit market research:

1) In the absence of those with vested interests in downtown Jacksonville (Khan, Rummell, Adkins, and the owners of Berkman 2), I doubt many outside investors are chomping at the bit to develop hotel properties in our urban core. As noted above, 70-75% occupancy tends to be when developers start to take note. We do have steadily increasing ADRs in our favor, but they're still low.

2) All things held constant, our urban market can't possibly absorb every one of the hotel projects that we've heard about in the last 12 months. The up to 350 rooms proposed by Khan, plus the 200 proposed for the District, plus the 131 proposed by Adkins at the Trio, plus 206 rooms at a phantom Berkman 2 hotel (assuming one-to-one with condos), would cannibalize the shit out of existing hotels and drive average occupancy down to a disastrous 46% if all were to magically come on line.

3) That said, there's certainly plenty of reason to expect the quantity demanded of hotel rooms in downtown Jacksonville to pick up in the next few years. Daily's Place will bring dozens of new events to the downtown core each year. The new convention center/conference space that Khan has been discussing should bring more visitors to town. The District should break ground next year. New additions to our medical centers should draw more out-of-towners. Who knows what will happen with the Shipyards or Met Park. Barring economic collapse, that existing market demand of 1,600 rooms per night should continue to climb as development comes on board.

4) That said, we'd need close to 2,100 rooms per night booked (+31%) to get back to even a 60% occupancy rate if all those extra rooms were to suddenly flood the market.

5) To me, the scenario with the best chance of success in the next couple of years would be the addition of a 300-room luxury hotel by Shad Khan's group, and the addition of the historic 113-room boutique hotel at the Trio by Adkins (an optimist, I know). Assuming a ten percent bump in market demand as the result of development, these rooms could be absorbed while still maintaining a healthy 63% occupancy rate for downtown Jacksonville. Plus, both offerings would be differentiated from what currently exists. Khan's hotel would bring cache and luxury, and a historic boutique hotel would bring hipster cool. I don't see anything about Berkman II, if finished, that would stand out from the pack, nor do I think the market is going to be there to warrant a 200-room hotel with Phase I of the District.

Anyway, again, pure speculation, but interesting that so many people are floating hotel ideas as of late.

[JaxVision]

Ive always thought that if  a new convention center is built that the prime osborn should be taken over by MOSH. The osborn is a historical building that MOSH could expand into with a look and feel of a big science and history museum.

[KenFSU]

RFP going out on Jan 31st, open for 60 days.

The JBJ mentioned that the RFP will require a 1,300 space GARAGE. That can't be right.

Same article also referenced a pretty staggering stat. 81% percent of Prime Osborne convention attendees said they were unlikely or highly unlikely to attend another convention in Jacksonville.

It's one problem if we don't have the facilities to attract conferences.

It's a much, much bigger problem if our existing facilities are turning four out of every five visitors off from ever visiting again.

[thelakelander]

Ive always thought that if  a new convention center is built that the prime osborn should be taken over by MOSH. The osborn is a historical building that MOSH could expand into with a look and feel of a big science and history museum.

It would be ideal to convert the Prime Osborn back into its original use....a train station. It's the perfect location for bringing Amtrak back downtown, while also serving as a terminus for a future Brightline extension to downtown (https://www.moderncities.com/article/2018-jan-brightline-launches-eyes-expansion-to-other-states). MOSH could certainly be improved, but I think it would be a shame to not bring rail back downtown, with the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center next door now under construction.