A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3743735494_KM8GzJG-M.jpg)
Investing in a new convention center is an issue that has been debated in Jacksonville for over a decade now. Looking back, the Civic Council may have provided an affordable "no-frills" solution that may be worth dusting off and revisiting.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-dec-a-cheap-solution-to-jaxs-convention-center-problem
Great article Ennis.
Just one point of clarification for your readers. the APA Florida conference was held at the Hyatt. Holding the conference at the Prime Osborn was never considered, as there are no nearby hotel rooms. That said, a reception was held in the grand hall of the building because of its grandeur and former life as a train station (which fit the conference theme).
I agree completely with the biz case of having the con center re-hosted closer to the hotels and sports complex.
One thing I want to add is that in the total cost of the Owensboro center was a significant amount of riverbank remediation along the Ohio. Remediation that would not be required in Jacksonville because in this plan the center would reside on land reclaimed from the river back in the late 50's.
Other items of note, Owensboro is managed by Mayor Brown's friends at Global Spectrum.
(http://www.owensborocenter.com/_uploads/about_us_top_image2-637x398.gif)
(http://www.owensborocenter.com/_uploads/inside_lobby1-300x200.gif)
The January calendar looks good.
- New Years Party
- Real Estate Event
- A weekly Thursday Winter Blues concert
- Wedding Planning Event
- Ag Expo
- Tri-State Kids Fair
Later on you have a boat & recreation show, Fire Fighter Officer School, Mardi Gras, Home & Garden Show, Health & Wellness Show, Public Health Association, Municipal Clerks Association
These are all typical shows that are already hosted in Jacksonville at either the PE, The Hyatt, the Morocco Shrine or UNF.
Owensboro is a good example of a parallel, complimentary center that would meet Jacksonville's needs.
We are missing only 1 key ingredient. Public Will.
I don't know what's 'great convention center architecture' and I wouldn't call myself some authority by no means, but that thing in Owensboro, KY look like a stormwater culvert of some sort.
I can't say that I wild about putting all of our eggs in the very oversaturated convention business and tearing down the Annex, but I see where Lake is coming from with this article, making a compact convention center footprint.
Great article.
I think this is a good compromise on a convention center. As the article states we don't need to compete with Orlando and and Atlanta, we'll never win those crowds, but we could have something more competitive and this looks like a good, reasonably, affordable solution.
Most importantly it frees up the terminal.
Quote from: I-10east on December 11, 2014, 09:41:18 AM
I don't know what's 'great convention center architecture' and I wouldn't call myself some authority by no means, but that thing in Owensboro, KY look like a stormwater culvert of some sort.
I can't say that I wild about putting all of our eggs in the very oversaturated convention business and tearing down the Annex, but I see where Lake is coming from what this article, making a compact convention center footprint.
^I hear you. However, in this situation, all this does is;
A. Make better use of the convention market we already in..
B. Creates a situation for a more vibrant entertainment district along East Bay Street...
C. Gets the convention center out of the train station, allowing that facility to be used for a better JRTC....
D. Creates a situation where Hyatt (a place taxpayers have subsidized) becomes more viable....
E. Dramatically reduces the cost/need for a convention center from the ground up.....
F. Placement on City Hall Annex site avoids the costly issue associated with building on the river.....
G. Still puts Jax in position to expand exhibition space on the courthouse block (immediately east), if a true market rate need ever arises at some point in the future.
All of that for a potential cost that's cheaper than the recent improvements to EverBank Field or the average highway overpass. I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 09:53:49 AM
I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.
you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time. Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.
^Good point.
So this is something floated by the Civic Council? Has there been any feedback from the City Council?
Old Courthouse site seems like a better Idea.
I am completely against the demolition of the City Hall Annex building or any other building. We have enough vacant lots in downtown to build on. The one for one trading of our buildings downtown are averse to actual city growth. Not to mention I am not convinced the new construction would happen once the demolition took place. Maybe I'm still bitter about the buildings we lost for the construction of the new library when half of downtown is vacant parking lots on the foundations of our lost historic buildings.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 11, 2014, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 09:53:49 AM
I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.
you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time. Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.
So basically this, which allows the City Hall Annex to be retrofitted with a new use:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Civic-Council-Hyatt-Convention/i-mtMbxcG/0/L/Hyatt%20Convention%202-L.jpg)
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 11, 2014, 11:16:27 AM
I am completely against the demolition of the City Hall Annex building or any other building. We have enough vacant lots in downtown to build on. The one for one trading of our buildings downtown are averse to actual city growth. Not to mention I am not convinced the new construction would happen once the demolition took place. Maybe I'm still bitter about the buildings we lost for the construction of the new library when half of downtown is vacant parking lots on the foundations of our lost historic buildings.
Oh, I totally understand your position and feel the same way on many levels.
If memory serves, the money for the stadium enhancements came from CVB bed tax revenue (2/3rds) and the Jags (1/3rd). Demolition and property remediation of obsolete city structures is clearly COJ's responsibilty. Seems that we would have to work with the hotel ownership and/or Hyatt hotel group or a 3rd party to supply a huge portion of the project construction costs unless there is more we can wring more $ out of the CVB revenues.
Would it not be possible to demo the red location about and put the surface parking or a multi-use garage there? Then just build the new center on the old parking lot? It would definitely spice up the riverfront view....
The parking lot is actually a deck over a deep part of the river. Putting a building there would get quite expensive.
Why not expand into that large parking space directly on the river. Have a bridge connecting the Hyatt and the new center. The breakout spaces, grand lobby, etc could actually have adjacent a river view with spaces on north acting as street level retail and restaurant space. Design the roof to house an intensive green roof that would serve as a river front park that slopes down to the ground plane and pulls people up and onto the park. A surface parking lot directly on the river is a dis-service to such a great location and parking could be mitigated with a garage if necessary (god knows we know how to build those!). This would be more cost effective in that it would require no demolition of an existing structure that realistically has potential to be rehabbed and repurposed. The old courthouse is not a terrible building and with some imagination and good design ideas could easily be redeveloped into mixed use tower with residential, offices, gallery space, retail and restaurants.
I would love to see the current parking lot become interactive green space, with an exhibition hall built where the old courthouse is. You would get to keep the Annex building and still have street level retail along Bay. The river-side of the exhibition hall could also interactive with the green space fronting the river, i.e. restaurant with outdoor seating. Could the Annex building be turned into affordable apartments?
A great idea, I like both the Annex site and the Court House site. Any new construction should go for the highest LEED certification possible.
Regarding saving the old City Hall, what would the cost of rehabbing - including asbestos mitigation - so it can be used for something else?
Quote from: mtheschmidt on December 11, 2014, 01:25:35 PM
Why not expand into that large parking space directly on the river.
Welcome to the forum! Also, you might notice that Lake answered your question in the comment before yours. See below ;)
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 11:53:58 AM
The parking lot is actually a deck over a deep part of the river. Putting a building there would get quite expensive.
My view is, if you can possibly save the tower portion of the City Hall Annex, try and do it. I guess it is somewhat a landmark in downtown. Maybe redevelop it into a hotel portion? However, I would much rather see greenery and park, not on Bay street, but on the river where the parking lot is. Both the City Hall Anex and Courthouse Anex disengage from Bay St., and will never do the "entertainment district" justice but always be a hindrance. Instead, build a convention center on the sites, maybe with the ability to go vertical in the future with some mixed use development, and have restaurants, bars, and maybe some touristy shopping on the street. It would make Bay St. so much better. A new green park or square on the current surface lot would be great and is something missing currently in the CBD of the Northbank, and Riverside Park-esque. Let's commit to revitalizing something, whether its Bay St, Laura St. Trio, Hemming Plaza, or the Landing. Other cities are getting things done, and all Jax seems to do is talk and bicker. We need momentum and excitement DT more than anything.
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on December 12, 2014, 04:23:26 AM
My view is, if you can possibly save the tower portion of the City Hall Annex, try and do it. I guess it is somewhat a landmark in downtown. Maybe redevelop it into a hotel portion? However, I would much rather see greenery and park, not on Bay street, but on the river where the parking lot is. Both the City Hall Anex and Courthouse Anex disengage from Bay St., and will never do the "entertainment district" justice but always be a hindrance. Instead, build a convention center on the sites, maybe with the ability to go vertical in the future with some mixed use development, and have restaurants, bars, and maybe some touristy shopping on the street. It would make Bay St. so much better. A new green park or square on the current surface lot would be great and is something missing currently in the CBD of the Northbank, and Riverside Park-esque. Let's commit to revitalizing something, whether its Bay St, Laura St. Trio, Hemming Plaza, or the Landing. Other cities are getting things done, and all Jax seems to do is talk and bicker. We need momentum and excitement DT more than anything.
t
i agree with everything said above. Also, Bay Street feels more like a wide highway in that area so I think putting it on a road diet, with curb extensions (neckdowns) at crosswalks, protected bike lanes, and having any new development actually address the street edge (instead of hiding it behind 8'-12' of landscaping) would do a lot to make The Elbow more of the pedestrian friendly 'entertainment district' that seems to be developing that way..
Great piece Lake and a lot of good discussion.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hermiker Block to the west of the Hyatt along Bay. That alleyway and rear parking lot would make for a fantastic outdoor courtyard/dining/entertainment area. However, the JEA station next to it is a major deterrent from anything like that happening there. Anyone know what the feasibility of moving that JEA station is? With the adjacent surface parking lot, and Hermiker Building, that site would have infinite potential if a convention center was built in the area.
I agree with regardless of what is developed on the property that the City Hall Annex building should be refit as either a hotel component or some sort of affordable apartment residences with the ground floors being converted to retail/residential use. The Old Courthouse land would be best suited for a convention center expansion in partnership with the Hyatt with ground floor retail and exhibition space above. The old eyesore of a parking lot would make for a world class riverfront park like many above have mentioned. I cant understand why the City, Sleiman, The Hyatt, and in between parties will not do the obvious and brand this entire sect 'The Landing' i.e Gaslamp District.. For instance the Hyatt would become the Hyatt@ The Jacksonville Landing..Etc. i think rebranding this entire section downtown as The Landing would help all parties involved and help expand the actual Landing retail experience outside of the half-shell structure and out into future developments along the corridor shall they ever come to past. Btw..new guy here. Metro Lofts Resident. Love the board. Great info and insight.
^^welcome, Marle. Good insights.
I love the idea of the rebranding of the entire riverfront up to a new convention center on the Northbank as the Jax Landing.
Quote from: Marle Brando on December 13, 2014, 08:06:50 PM
I agree with regardless of what is developed on the property that the City Hall Annex building should be refit as either a hotel component or some sort of affordable apartment residences with the ground floors being converted to retail/residential use. The Old Courthouse land would be best suited for a convention center expansion in partnership with the Hyatt with ground floor retail and exhibition space above. The old eyesore of a parking lot would make for a world class riverfront park like many above have mentioned. I cant understand why the City, Sleiman, The Hyatt, and in between parties will not do the obvious and brand this entire sect 'The Landing' i.e Gaslamp District.. For instance the Hyatt would become the Hyatt@ The Jacksonville Landing..Etc. i think rebranding this entire section downtown as The Landing would help all parties involved and help expand the actual Landing retail experience outside of the half-shell structure and out into future developments along the corridor shall they ever come to past. Btw..new guy here. Metro Lofts Resident. Love the board. Great info and insight.
Fantastic post.
The branding idea is a good one.
Welcome aboard Marie! Nice post. Of course I'm always thinking in terms of transportation here, but that gas light idea really got the wheels turning. Imagine a brick (or impressed colored asphalt that appears to be brick) pavement down Water Street, gas lamps or very early style electric streetlights, vintage streetcars, maritime trappings and furnishings, signage, and names. For example the little dead end on Hogan could be relabeled 'Hogan Street Wharf' or 'Hogan Street Quay.' Rebuild the old arch over the (Water St.) street (once upon a time over Main Street at the Ferry Landing) that actually said 'Jacksonville Ferry Landing' and 'Gateway to South Jacksonville'. Now knock down the ramps off of the Main Street Bridge and instant transformation of downtown seeded!
The re-branding idea is brilliant! This could easily be done with minimal costs. Lamppost banners along that stretch of the riverwalk could tie the section all together. Maybe informational placards in a timeline format could be added to outline the history of that section of the riverbank. Go back all the way to when it was docks and warehouses. Isn't there still a large restaurant space available in the Hyatt? It's a shame that we can't get that filled.
There is ALWAYS someone or some organization pulling up to the public trough trying to suck up some taxpayer dollars. If all these ideas are so worthy, why can't anyone find any private financial backing? If the private sector won't back it, why should taxpayers?
Quote from: Redbaron616 on December 20, 2014, 11:10:02 PM
There is ALWAYS someone or some organization pulling up to the public trough trying to suck up some taxpayer dollars. If all these ideas are so worthy, why can't anyone find any private financial backing? If the private sector won't back it, why should taxpayers?
Because the private sector measures in different terms than the public sector. If all public projects deemed "worthy" had to pass a private finance litmus test, many public items wouldn't exist. Yes, there is too much pork driven feeding at the trough, but there is also a problem with public underinvestment.
Con centers can be viewed as a public infrastructure investment if it is scoped and sized properly relative to the regional needs.
The issue of many of the pork driven con centers across the US is that mismatch of scope and size relative to its market. Big con centers are great until meeting planners find out that their aren't enough hotel beds within a 10 mile radius of the facility. They will gladly walk away to a higher psf charge if they can attract more people through easy access to beds nearby.
Politcos overestimate how con centers will drive new hotel construction. But if they can't get "big ones" due to lack of beds and they can't get enough small to midsize due to pricing, then yes, it will sit empty 90% of the year.
So if Jax embraces a new con center, I don't care if they if they dip into the trough, if and only if, it is sized appropriately for our market and located in and near the beds.
An unknown little town in Kentucky has a gorgeous new convention center that outpaces Jacksonville? I say, build it. Great idea.
Looks like there are some more serious talks about what to do with the convention center. I am personally a fan of using the old courthouse site and returning the current location back into a train station. Could be a bit of a catalyst for the bay st. area/The Elbow if they do it right, although I agree with Delaney on the point that 200 mil. could be better spent somewhere else. Interesting stuff.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545678
Quote"At some point it's ripe," Delaney said in the post-meeting interview. "The question is if you had $400 million for economic development, is the convention center the best place to put it?"
Delaney asked whether the money would be better spent in port development, at the proposed Shipyards project or in other infrastructure.
If I had to pick and choose, I'd probably go with a decent, well placed and designed convention center over the Shipyards. Nevertheless, if we had $400 million to play with, I wouldn't toss it on any single project. Combined with the Hyatt's existing facilities, we should be able to make a $100 million space work. That would be the outlook I'd take on all of these projects needing public money. Find a way to significantly slash the cost on single projects to spread the money out to get multiple things off the ground simultaneously.
I might pick a (well designed and integrated) convention center over the Shipyards, until we really know what we're getting with the Shipyards. Or divvy it up like Lake said, and do a lot of smaller projects and improvements that have been neglected. Unfortunately from what I hear there may not be much in the way of money in this budget, it sounds like a real mess.
That site at the annex makes a lot of sense. However, you are locked in with not much of an ability to expand on that spot.
Saw this mentioned in another thread so I figured I'd try to bring it up in a more relevant one...
Has anyone considered turning Regency Square into a convention center? It's got more than enough land. The building is in fairly good shape and would just need to be gutted. You could tack on a hotel or two where the Anchors are. Add in a music hall, keep some shops and restaurants. There's more than enough parking and if a garage was put in you have a ton of land you could reclame for park space or something. It would definitely help out a struggling area and isn't too far from downtown.
^ I'd be against it simply because I think we need to have the convention center downtown. The hotels are already there and it is far more "walkable" and would, in the near term at least, give a better impression of Jacksonville for travelers than directing them to Arlington.
It is certainly an interesting thought for sure to repurpose Regency. It is a lot of space, over a million square feet but the lack of hotels and lack of an intriguing features in walking distance.
This becomes an interesting discussion again with the parking deck being taken out.
Why can the meeting rooms above the parking garage next to the Hyatt not be expanded? It is such a waste of space there.
Also, if you did attempt to use the Annex space differently, could you keep the tower intact?
Any way to just repurpose the Courthouse for convention space?
With the new amphitheater and nearly 100,000 sq footage of space at the practice field, and the rumors Khan wants a hotel at Metro Park, I imagine a convention component will be part of the discussion over there especially with the additional space of Everbank and the Arena also nearby.
^If you added an exhibition hall on the courthouse site (assuming you wanted to preserve the annex building), and connected it via a skybridge to the Hyatt's meeting room floor, you'd have a convention center with a 1,000 hotel in the heart of downtown. This is about the most logical and affordable way to resolve the convention center issue. Converting Regency into a convention center is impractical...plus it's largely leased out already and adding something near the stadium is just as impactful on downtown as leaving it where it is today.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on March 02, 2017, 10:25:09 PM
Aint nobody coming to no damn convention at Regency Square Mall.
Truth
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2017, 05:24:43 AM
^If you added an exhibition hall on the courthouse site (assuming you wanted to preserve the annex building), and connected it via a skybridge to the Hyatt's meeting room floor, you'd have a convention center with a 1,000 hotel in the heart of downtown. This is about the most logical and affordable way to resolve the convention center issue. Converting Regency into a convention center is impractical...plus it's largely leased out already and adding something near the stadium is just as impactful on downtown as leaving it where it is today.
For sure and I agree. I think you would probably need some public-private partnership of another hotel or Hyatt addition and some vertical development to make it worth it on that site. At the same time, I doubt Shad Khan said this off the cuff:
Quote"We have, across (the street), a great opportunity for a high-end hotel/convention center, which this town really needs," Khan said at the groundbreaking. "It's something we'll try and work with the city on. As you move toward downtown, the city is wrestling with a lot of challenges environmentally. As that's addressed, you can really have growth. It's absolutely important."
http://jacksonville.com/metro/2016-11-11/mayor-curry-eyes-met-park-possible-site-riverfront-development-tandem-shad-khan
If this is the route they are going to go, I would hope that much of that would be planned as close to DT as possible (towards the property line where the Fire Museum is)to maybe help get Doro really off the ground. Khan definitely has a way with the Mayor and he wants a first class facility for an NFL Draft first, and I think another Super Bowl in a decade. I went to a convention in ATL that incorporated the Georgia Dome and Phillips Arena a lot. It was definitely cool and people were impressed by that. You could potentially do the same thing here with the Amphitheater, IPF, Stadium, and Convention Center.
^Khan's statement doesn't mean mean much IMO. "High-end hotel/convention center" could very well be something totally different from the role the Prime Osborn is supposed to serve. For all we know, he could be mentioning the need for a high end hotel with meeting space. Not necessarily a traditional convention center with a +100,000-square-foot exhibition hall.
Very true.
Lake, what about just redoing the space above the garage for the Hyatt? It would seemingly make a lot more sense to use the space more wisely that is already there and that is not a wise use of space right on our riverfront.
^That space isn't conductive to the design and needs of an exhibition hall, plus doing so only reduces the amount of meeting space the Hyatt currently has. An exhibition hall is essentially designing a big box like Walmart or Target. It's cheaper to build one from scratch and connect it to Hyatt's existing ballroom, meeting rooms, hotel rooms and restaurant spaces, as opposed to building an entirely new convention center complex (ex. new ballroom, meeting rooms, hotel rooms and an exhibition hall, etc.).
(https://cobbgalleria.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/0X8A6943ed1.jpg)
For sure. Could this be used, specifically in the offseason, for exhibition space as well?
(http://prod.static.jaguars.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/2016/Misc/2Rendering-2.jpg)
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 03, 2017, 01:16:26 PM
For sure. Could this be used, specifically in the offseason, for exhibition space as well?
(http://prod.static.jaguars.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/2016/Misc/2Rendering-2.jpg)
Not likely. No temp or humidity control.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 03, 2017, 01:16:26 PM
For sure. Could this be used, specifically in the offseason, for exhibition space as well?
(http://prod.static.jaguars.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/2016/Misc/2Rendering-2.jpg)
No. What good is an isolated box with no hotel rooms, ballrooms, etc. that can't be used for most of the year?
For sure. But in a situation with a hotel and convention center nearby, it certainly could be used. I am all for the plan you have proposed with the old Courthouse which would be great for Bay St., but there is a certain synergy of facilities by the stadium that could be created with Khan's assistance that could actually attract some top notch conventions as well. We will see how the discussion unfolds in the future.
I don't see how we'd effectively market our community for major conventions, or keep half the ones we already have, if we invest in a facility isn't available the majority of the year. Also, Khan's not building another 1,000 room hotel. The market would kill both his investment and the other hotels we have downtown. He didn't get to be a billionaire by making foolish investments. Whatever he proposals will be market rate unless he makes the city subsidize a large percentage of it. If that's the case, there's a lot to consider, in terms of if subsidizing something the market can't support will result in killing off of businesses already invested in the downtown area.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2017, 11:00:34 AM
^Khan's statement doesn't mean mean much IMO. "High-end hotel/convention center" could very well be something totally different from the role the Prime Osborn is supposed to serve. For all we know, he could be mentioning the need for a high end hotel with meeting space. Not necessarily a traditional convention center with a +100,000-square-foot exhibition hall.
Agreed. I think Khan's "high-end hotel/convention center" is going to be in line with what he originally proposed for the Shipyards. 300 rooms max, with some meeting space and ballrooms, and restaurants on the ground floor and rooftop.
Quote from: spuwho on March 03, 2017, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 03, 2017, 01:16:26 PM
For sure. Could this be used, specifically in the offseason, for exhibition space as well?
(http://prod.static.jaguars.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/2016/Misc/2Rendering-2.jpg)
Not likely. No temp or humidity control.
The flex field is fully climate controlled (when the sliding doors are closed).
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 03, 2017, 04:20:10 PM
For sure. But in a situation with a hotel and convention center nearby, it certainly could be used. I am all for the plan you have proposed with the old Courthouse which would be great for Bay St., but there is a certain synergy of facilities by the stadium that could be created with Khan's assistance that could actually attract some top notch conventions as well. We will see how the discussion unfolds in the future.
Personally, I love the idea for certain use cases.
If Khan's hotel is built, the complex would include:
- Up to 300 hotel rooms
- Riverfront meeting space and ballrooms
- 94,000 sf of climate-controlled, naturally lit flex/exhibition space (sitting empty from January to late July)
- A 5,500 seat amphitheater directly connected to the flex space
Could it serve as Jacksonville's primary convention center for your routine business conferences? Of course not. But could the city host a handful of amazing conventions annually that leveraged all three spaces? Absolutely. Why couldn't you have a sci-fi, comic, or video game convention - for example - that leverages the hotel ballrooms for more intimate events, the flex field for merch vendors and food trucks, and the amphitheater for screenings or panels. Hell, it opens into Everbank, you could even have screenings on the massive video boards.
At the very least, such a setup has a nationally unique value proposition that differentiates us from our sister cities and give us another opportunity to ROI on the millions and millions and millions of dollars we've pumped into these spaces.
Looks like the Jags have the same idea, as Bold Events are already actively accepting bookings for trade shows/conventions for both the flex field and amphitheater.
That's a great idea, especially since the flex field/amp is already being built,
There's tons of indoor practice facilities for college and pro teams already. Are there any decent examples of any doing what's suggested in this thread?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2017, 11:49:22 AM
There's tons of indoor practice facilities for college and pro teams already. Are there any decent examples of any doing what's suggested in this thread?
Probably not, but to me, that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. Will never be a solution for your typical business convention, but as a unique, marquee space to pitch for some mega-cons, why not? If the hotel is built, what does the space lack? Let's not forget that Jacksonville defied all odds and was awarded a Super Bowl, perhaps the biggest annual event in the world, for outside-the-box thinking.
I guess I'm a believer in simplicity. Out-of-the-box thinking to things that should be simple to pull off typically end up costing you more problems and money at the end of the day. Two local examples being the Skyway (going APM instead of LRT or Streetcar) and the Jacksonville Landing (Festival Marketplace turning its back from downtown to save downtown retail).
In its most simpliest form, we already have a 1,000 room convention center hotel, meeting rooms and the land needed for the addition of an exhibition hall adjacent to it. Just add the exhibition hall (essentially a Wal-Mart box) and you can make those same pitches for mega-cons year round for a fraction of the cost. In addition, all those events would be within walking distance of the Landing and Elbow, generating more economic opportunity for existing DT businesses and infilling currently vacant retail storefront space.
On the other hand, if we're relying on another convention center/hotel to be built a mile away from the downtown core, we've literally put ourselves in the same position with the Prime Osborn. The economic spin-off to downtown businesses would be just as limited. The only major differences would be a hotel to eat away business from our existing subsidized 1,000 convention center hotel and a center that could only be used for half a year. If that's the case, we'd be better off just adding onto the Prime Osborn and running the Skyway on-demand to provide a 24/7 direct connection to the Omni.
Fact is the flex field space isn't a whole lot bigger than what the Prime Osborn already offers, and its about as far from a hotel and the core entertainment area. That's not an improvement.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 05, 2017, 08:10:01 PM
Fact is the flex field space isn't a whole lot bigger than what the Prime Osborn already offers, and its about as far from a hotel and the core entertainment area. That's not an improvement.
Again, I think the point is Khan wants to build a luxury hotel and convention space by the stadium.
He may want too. Until we have the details though, it's difficult to determine the scale and if what he has in mind, has anything to do with resolving the problems that the Prime Osborn suffers from. If such a plan involves using an indoor practice facility for exhibition space, less than half of the year, I'd say it would not. If such a plan also calls for the city to toss in more money than simply adding an exhibition hall near the Hyatt, then that's another major factor to consider as well.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2017, 10:26:21 AM
He may want too. Until we have the details though, it's difficult to determine the scale and if what he has in mind, has anything to do with resolving the problems that the Prime Osborn suffers from. If such a plan involves using an indoor practice facility for exhibition space, less than half of the year, I'd say it would not. If such a plan also calls for the city to toss in more money than simply adding an exhibition hall near the Hyatt, then that's another major factor to consider as well.
For sure. I think the best case scenario, other than Shad Khan building something privately (which is a pipe dream), would be a mixed use building at the old Courthouse site with at least one exhibition hall. I could see another hotel above it or maybe apartments that could be converted to condos...but of course that would make getting shovels in the ground a lot harder.
Ennis, why is it so hard for you to grasp the Jaguars aren't building an indoor practice facility like most anything that has been built for colleges and most pro teams? Your responses always seem to presume this, which is just bizarre to me. And then you make the claim it isn't climate-controlled (false) and it isn't available most of the year (false).
Damn, man. Can we see how this thing develops and keep a more objective mind about it?
^Lol, I didn't say anything about something not being climate-controlled. I also don't care if the practice field is built out of gold. It won't work as a replacement exhibition hall for the Prime Osborn if it isn't available for conventions for half the year. With that said, I'm only responding to speculation here, not anything that has actually been proposed.
If Khan wants to build a 500+ room hotel plus 250k SqFt of space with his own money (and he had a crapton of it so nothing is off the table) then cool. Otherwise the best solution is adjacent to the 1,000 room hotel that struggles to stay above water when a football game isn't involved.
Well, I stand corrected Ennis. That was spuwho on the no-climate-controlled thing. *You* were the prisoner of today guy, writing "What good is an isolated box with no hotel rooms, ballrooms, etc. that can't be used for most of the year?"
Luckily, KenFSU put the lie to that assertion: "Looks like the Jags have the same idea, as Bold Events are already actively accepting bookings for trade shows/conventions for both the flex field and amphitheater."
But . . . Ennis is undeterred! "There's tons of indoor practice facilities for college and pro teams already. Are there any decent examples of any doing what's suggested in this thread?"
Wowza. Is that an honest question when everyone knows, and celebrates, the fact this is a unique Jacksonville thing never done anywhere else. Most cities celebrate that kind of thing. But . . . Down with creativity, says Ennis! "I guess I'm a believer in simplicity. Out-of-the-box thinking to things that should be simple to pull off typically end up costing you more problems and money at the end of the day."
The Skyway, Ennis? For realz? That level of critique, IMHO, isn't applicable when you have a world class team at the helm in Mark Lamping and Shad Khan.
And looky-looky: another prisoner of the moment, tufsu1, chimes in! "Fact is the flex field space isn't a whole lot bigger than what the Prime Osborn already offers, and its about as far from a hotel and the core entertainment area. That's not an improvement."
False. And we went over this last August when some of the same crowd insisted on downplaying matters just as is being done now. Fortunately, I doubt if a 94,000 square-foot, convention-center-quality and column-free Exhibit Hall will be ignored for most of the year when it is, in fact, available for the majority of the year. It is also likely the *patios* for the US Assure clubs on each side of the stadium (constituting 18,780 square feet each of available space to be creatively utilized) won't be ignored, either. Nor will the additional 100,000 square feet in the covered portions of the US Assure Clubs. None of this, of course, brings into the discussion the other zones of the stadium that might ALSO be creatively utilized practically year-round. Add up the numbers, tufsu1, and you likely have *well* more than 200,000 square feet of unique space (perhaps even 300k) that may be creatively utilized at EverBank / Daily's Place / Exhibit Hall Flex Field in one connected facility. And you're talking about the damn Prime Osborn !?!
But, hey -- for simplicity's sake, y'all stay inside that know-everything box. One way or another, time is going to tell. It's just exceedingly odd to see such a major development, unique to Jacksonville, so ridiculously dismissed.
^ let's be real here. The Jags flex field isn't exactly on par with what Jerry built for his 'boys. Now that's a facility that could be used for conventions!
Exactly right, tufsu1. And we very clearly don't have the market for that. So *our* guys here had to get VERY creative. And they have. And we should be rightly singing their praises for being INCREDIBLY creative. I swear, had this exact same thing occurred in Tampa or Miami some of y'all would be screaming about how Jacksonville has *no* forward thinkers that could pull off something like this.
That.Is.Bizarre.
Though we won't have what Jerry is doing in Texas, we *do* have something that will be clearly attractive for conventions. Any objective party should be able to see that.
Honestly, it doesn't cost you anything to give these guys their props. It is especially well-deserved on this latest project; all of that public-private partnership (much of it dismissively criticized on this site) has given us something it would have been incredibly hard to generate on our own, via government, or completely through some wealthy investor. I'm throwing some good-natured jabs here (I hope they are received as such) just to call into question what seems like some weird envy that won't allow the projection of professional objectivity -- into a context where some local boosterism is what should be presented, IMHO.
We can't even get the professional objectivity ? ? ?
State of the franchise. 10:45am. Jaguars.com/live.
Hopefully we fill get some lively conversation on the forum afterwords.
It is pretty simple - the Jags practice facility is not going to be used as a convention facility. It takes a lot more than just a big box to host conventions. I'm going to play nice and not even go into all the reasons why it can't happen, let alone why it shouldn't.
The question Jacksonville really needs to ask itself is, do the taxpayers of Jax want to get in an arms race with the convention industry where there are almost no winners? Convention centers are almost always sold to the public as a cash-cow, but the vast majority of them turn out to lay economic eggs. They never meet revenue projections, never attract the conventions that were promised, never bring in the intangible benefits that no one can ever seems to quantify, and always need operating subsidies...and heaven forbid a convention hotel is attached because those operate in the red for their entire life.
'Never' might be a strong word but for every 1 that does, I can show you 20 that didn't.
I have to agree with Kerry here...
http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html
Most eye opening paragraph
There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.
Quote from: Snufflee on March 08, 2017, 11:55:08 AM
I have to agree with Kerry here...
http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html
Most eye opening paragraph
There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.
There's more to consider than the national trends.
1: We already have conventions and similar events and it would suck to lose those.
2: Convention centers can have more benefits besides just making money. They can bring people to the area they're in and support businesses and hotels in an area. Even if it doesn't measure up to the lofty promises some make about convention centers, it could certainly be a boost to a place like Downtown Jacksonville.
3: We already have some assets in place that would benefit from a stronger, better designed convention center. The downtown hotels, for instance, like the Hyatt which was built with public incentives; open space with difficult reuse potential like the old Courthouse; and our burgeoning entertainment strips.
4: Jax with our weather and location is better positioned to do well with convention business than many other places. We won't compete with Orlando or Miami, but there's no reason we couldn't get a piece of the Florida pie to the benefit of 1, 2, and 3.
An affordable, well designed, and well located convention center in the heart of Downtown could be a good addition if we keep in mind what we really want out of it, and keep expectations realistic.
Quote from: Snufflee on March 08, 2017, 11:55:08 AM
I have to agree with Kerry here...
http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html
Most eye opening paragraph
There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.
^The main problem I have with the argument is that we're already in the business and we already have a 1,000 room convention center hotel operating in the red. We also already have a half empty retail center next to that hotel (The Landing) and an entertainment district (The Elbow) filled with underutilized plots of land, immediately adjacent to that hotel. None of these things are going anywhere anytime soon.
However, they all perform better if the existing events taking place at the Prime Osborn, are relocated to the courthouse site. All of those people, even those going to cheerleading competitions and Home & Garden shows will have to drive into the heart of the Northbank, park and walk past downtown businesses. This is something they don't do now. More visibility, street traffic and foot traffic leads to more economic opportunity for the area benefiting from it.
So IMO, it's less about getting into a new market or getting the next major Comicon and more about clustering our existing Northbank investments in a manner that creates better utilization and foot traffic. In the long run, you're going to save taxpayers a hell of a lot of money by working with what you already have, as opposed to tossing millions at different gimmicks spread-out from Brooklyn to the Stadium District.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 08, 2017, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: Snufflee on March 08, 2017, 11:55:08 AM
I have to agree with Kerry here...
http://www.governing.com/blogs/bfc/col-convention-center-promised-benefits-rarely-materialize.html
Most eye opening paragraph
There was a little over 36 million square feet of exhibition space in the United States in 1989. By 2011, that number had nearly doubled to 70.5 million. The problem is that in the midst of a decades-long convention-space explosion, demand has remained flat at best.
There's more to consider than the national trends.
1: We already have conventions and similar events and it would suck to lose those.
2: Convention centers can have more benefits besides just making money. They can bring people to the area they're in and support businesses and hotels in an area. Even if it doesn't measure up to the lofty promises some make about convention centers, it could certainly be a boost to a place like Downtown Jacksonville.
3: We already have some assets in place that would benefit from a stronger, better designed convention center. The downtown hotels, for instance, like the Hyatt which was built with public incentives; open space with difficult reuse potential like the old Courthouse; and our burgeoning entertainment strips.
4: Jax with our weather and location is better positioned to do well with convention business than many other places. We won't compete with Orlando or Miami, but there's no reason we couldn't get a piece of the Florida pie to the benefit of 1, 2, and 3.
An affordable, well designed, and well located convention center in the heart of Downtown could be a good addition if we keep in mind what we really want out of it, and keep expectations realistic.
100% agree with all of this and Lake's assessment. Jacksonville does have the benefit of being the closest large Florida city to the rest of the east coast. Those midsized conventions with lots of people driving in from ATL, Charlotte, or Columbia, can add up and be more convenient than heading down to SoFla or Tampa. Orlando is another animal...
Well rephrasing it the way the previous 3 posts did, makes mush more sense. Keeping expectations realistic is important, the question i would pose is "What makes San Diego a great convention city"? (Example based on the fact I lived there for 15 years and attended several ComiCons). Answer... The Gas Lamp and the adjacent parks and harbor are literally part of the convention and event scene. Does Jacksonville have enough to make the City part of the event and do "we" have the will to allow The Elbow, landing et al to become major destinations both during events/conventions and on a random Tuesday night.
Looks like the Jaguars want to create their own convention space in metro Park. problem solved..lol
lol, saw that. Will be interesting to see development timeline, size and the amount of requested public subsidies.
The Jaguars don't have to build a huge space. They can build moderate and connect it to the Flex Field via pedestrian bridge and bam space is doubled or tripled. And they will have a hotel connected right to it.Definitely interesting to see play out.
I can see some of you bought the Chamber of Commerce line of thinking about convention centers. Here is the truth. For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents. If that's what our market is, then build around that market. Don't build for something that is never going to happen. It is okay for the City to have nice things that local residents enjoy. You want a new convention center, great, support a new convention center, but for the love of Pete, don't hide behind all these pie in the sky total made up economic benefits because it's insulting. Just say hey, I go to the Jacksonville Auto Show every year and it would be more enjoyable if the facility was nicer. Emphasize quality and overall positive experience of the local resident.
I go to the Jacksonville Auto Show and I would like a nice facility.
^LOL, I doubt anyone here believes in "these pie in the sky total made up economic benefits".
QuoteHere is the truth. For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents. If that's what our market is, then build around that market.
That's fine. Local residents spend money at local restaurants and retail shops too. Heck, I'm one of them. With that said, I don't believe we need a new convention center. We just need to replace the exhibition hall at the Prime Osborn (allowing it the opportunity serve as a passenger rail station again), next door to our existing convention center hotel and its meeting rooms and call it a day. That's about the cheapest option Jax has for addressing its convention center dilemma in a manner that economically benefits the core of downtown. I just don't see what's pie-in-the-sky about clustering complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. It's a basic element of any vibrant urban setting.
^Yup.
It looks as though Shad envisions exhibition space next to the high-end hotel and -- (gasp!) what's this! -- referred to the Flex Field as . . . exhibition space.
Y'all country boyz might want to catch up.
It is interesting that they refer to the Flex Field as exhibition space.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 03:36:00 PM
QuoteHere is the truth. For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents. If that's what our market is, then build around that market.
That's fine. Local residents spend money at local restaurants and retail shops too. Heck, I'm one of them. With that said, I don't believe we need a new convention center. We just need to replace the exhibition hall at the Prime Osborn (allowing it the opportunity serve as a passenger rail station again), next door to our existing convention center hotel and its meeting rooms and call it a day. That's about the cheapest option Jax has for addressing its convention center dilemma in a manner that economically benefits the core of downtown. I just don't see what's pie-in-the-sky about clustering complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. It's a basic element of any vibrant urban setting.
I totally agree with a local-focus CC, but if Jax moves the convention center from Prime then what does that do to all Skyway plans. If the CC route is not used for conventions then why even have it exist if all it will do is go to a transit center located in the middle of nowhere. They might as well move the transit center to someplace else.
Also, let me know when someone comes up with a pedestrian-oriented convention center. I've never seen one, and trust me, I have looked. Columbus, OH is about as close as one has come - and it is surrounded by freeways on 3 sides.
?? JTA is talking about extending the Skyway down Bay Street to Everbank Field. That path runs right past the courthouse site. Also, getting the PO out of the train station allows for it to be used once again.....as a train station. Also, it appears much of those vacant lots in LaVilla will end up being apartments:
Lofts at LaVilla
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-wsQ3NsN/0/L/20160421DDRB_Meeting%20Packetfinal_Page_128-X2-L.jpg)
Lofts at Monroe
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Lofts-at-Monroe/i-XNjGPc9/0/L/20170316_DDRB%20Agenda%20packet_Page_36-L.jpg)
Houston Street Manor
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-gMpxfwk/0/L/20151217_DDRB%20Meeting%20Packet2_Page_38A-L-L.jpg)
^Also, the ultimate plans for the transit center include redeveloping many of the empty blocks around it. No one thinks that the Prime Osborn is a good location for a convention center.
What if the existing facility was detached from the train station and rotated to be oriented towards Bay St? It could create a nice street wall along that part of Bay, use existing transportation investments, and 3 sides don't need money spent on pedestrian orientation. Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/MetroJax/newJaxCC_zpsmtjyve93.jpg)
Why spend just as much money to improve the Prime Osborn (still leaving it without direct connectivity to necessary supportive land uses) when you could move the exhibition hall to a spot where it actually makes sense?
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 10:42:09 AMLet's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.
If 24/7 heavy industrial use like Maxwell House can operate on Bay Street, getting trucks in at an exhibition hall won't be a problem.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 10:45:50 AM
Why spend just as much money to improve the Prime Osborn (still leaving it without direct connectivity to necessary supportive land uses) when you could move the exhibition hall to a spot where it actually makes sense?
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 10:42:09 AMLet's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.
If 24/7 heavy industrial use like Maxwell House can operate on Bay Street, getting trucks in at an exhibition hall won't be a problem.
Is Maxwell House walkable urbanism? I know Jax is just getting the CC idea rolling but I just went through 5 years of this in OKC. They had this idea that they were going to build the CC and create it as the center piece of some grand walkable urbanism idea - then they found out how much that costs and that it is really impossible to do, and moved it to where it is going now - wedged up against an elevated road so they only have to make one side of it nice.
Yeah, Maxwell House is about as old school "walkable urban" industrial as you can find in Jax. It's been there 100 years and is right up on the street. They don't build them like that anymore. It's a classic throw back to what that corridor once was and should be preserved.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/History/Myrtle-Avenue-Subway/i-QQwhHsN/0/L/rc11969-L.jpg)
I'm still not seeing why expanding a convention center in an isolated location, without a hotel, restaurants, etc. is a good thing. What you've sketched out requires more land area and is something much larger than what Jax actually needs. It also eats up space once used for passenger rail support services....assuming down the line, we'd want rail back at the JRTC one day.
If an exhibition hall was built at the courthouse site, Liberty Street would most likely be the spot where service uses would be oriented. That's basically what it has served as for the last century. This would allow you to do some interesting things at ground level with the north (Bay) and south (new riverwalk) elevations.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/4006811815_7nDVHwK-L.jpg)
(http://static.wixstatic.com/media/f80324_0e0db848f3c34dd784e5de3a7ee59a78.jpg)
Have you seen the other sides of the Washington St Convention Center? They aren't exactly beaming with walkable urbanism. Two siders are blank walls that don't even have sidewalks. It is crazy expensive to make more than one side 'nice'. Also, do you envision a 10 bay loading dock right against the new park and marina? You will also lose a significant portion of the available land to back of house operations and there is no room for expansion if Jax ever decides to go that route.
I appreciate what you want to accomplish but the price tag on that coupled with no future expansion is a non-starter for me. Plus, that land has way higher and better uses than an exhibition space. Finally, where would everyone park? I hate parking as much as the next person but the reality is people in metro Jax have no other way to get there. They have to park somewhere.
Yes. The back side is pretty nice. It's a park/plaza built over the interstate.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-XmrpGgT/0/L/DSCF5867-L.jpg)
It's where most of us escaped when we wanted to get some sun or take a brief break from a convention I attended in 2015. It also made for a pretty nice shortcut back to my hotel.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-FqFdckB/0/L/DSCF5872-L.jpg)
Not to nitpick - but those pictures are not adjacent to the convention center, but in fairness, they are pretty close by. Anyone who wants to see what the surrounding streets at Washington State Convention Center looks like can go to Google Earth and see it. One of the criteria under discussion for their current expansion plans is how they fix the existing walkable urbanism problems.
Maybe we should go about this in a more constructive way since I think everyone sort of wants the same thing. What should a new exhibition center entail?
Some things to consider:
Size of unobstructed floor space
Number of meeting rooms
Kitchen facilities
Loading bays
Parking
Hotel stock/CC hotel
Type of events
Expansion capabilities
Any other criteria anyone can think of?
The current facility has 78,000 sq.feet of mostly column free exhibition space, 22 meeting rooms, 6 loading bays, and parking for 600 on pavement and another 300 on grass. Is the desire to replicate the size, reduce it, or make it bigger?
We're so far past that. We've been studying it for at least 15 years now. There's quite a few studies with the info you mention that are posted here. When I get a chance, I'll dig up some old stories and threads on the subject.
I think the convention center issue has been studied almost every 10 years in Jax. Enough with the studies and consultants. I think the only two really feasible options are the old Courthouse/City Hall properties or as part of the Shipyards/Metro Park redevelopment if a hotel the quality Khan is talking about is built.
I prefer the Courthouse site if the site is mixed use because I honestly don't see any real expansions in the next 30-40 years if done right but also, I hate to have waterfront property that is just an exhibition hall without a residential/retail/hotel component in some way utilizing that primetime waterfront location on Bay St.
^It can have space for ground level retail and restaurants. In fact, that's something that should be included at any site. There's a lot of great examples out there.
Since I seemed to have missed the 10 to 15 years of studies, anyone know off hand what the conclusions were on size?
Here's two old links:
The Civic Council recommended demolishing the City Hall Annex building and adding a mixed-use 100,000 square foot hall behind the Hyatt in 2011. If this was done, you'd have ground level street retail on Bay and the exhibition hall would be attached to the second floor ballroom meeting spaces of the Hyatt. The exhibition hall would also be about +22 SF larger than the existing PO's hall:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1185301484_fbmQK-600x10000.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-feb-the-jacksonville-civic-councils-plans-for-downtown
This 2009 article has several links to other articles with specific details from previous studies:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jan-peytons-struggles-the-convention-center
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/073005/bus_19375381.shtml#.WML6Pm8rJQI
Link to another study done in 2006.
Okay - after reading through those I can't believe anyone is seriously in favor of the Bay St site. Tear down the Hermiker Block for a parking garage? I don't even know where to begin with that. There isn't a CC consultant alive that would recommend that proposal today. Those that would have all been fired.
^It's easily the best location. It could be done without demolishing the Hermiker building.
^Pretty much. You can get an exhibition hall built without tearing down the Hermiker building for parking. You just have to see the forest through the trees by focusing on resolving the actual problem.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
Okay - after reading through those I can't believe anyone is seriously in favor of the Bay St site. Tear down the Hermiker Block for a parking garage? I don't even know where to begin with that. There isn't a CC consultant alive that would recommend that proposal today. Those that would have all been fired.
We don't need to tear the Hermiker down. That aside, let's focus on the exhibition hall. What negatives do you see in placing that plan on the City Hall Annex or larger courthouse site? That box, combined with the Hyatt's existing amount of meeting space fulfills the requirements identified for a convention center in the local market. COJ also owns the land. Any amount of extra foot traffic on Bay and the riverwalk will benefit the Elbow and Landing.
If it were up to me, I'd place the exhibition hall on the courthouse site (with street level retail facing Bay) and I'd RFP the City Hall Annex building for a mixed use retrofit (market rate apartments and ground floor retail).
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 02:45:51 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
Okay - after reading through those I can't believe anyone is seriously in favor of the Bay St site. Tear down the Hermiker Block for a parking garage? I don't even know where to begin with that. There isn't a CC consultant alive that would recommend that proposal today. Those that would have all been fired.
We don't need to tear the Hermiker down. That aside, let's focus on the exhibition hall. What negatives do you see in placing that plan on the City Hall Annex or larger courthouse site? That box, combined with the Hyatt's existing amount of meeting space fulfills the requirements identified for a convention center in the local market. COJ also owns the land. Any amount of extra foot traffic on Bay and the riverwalk will benefit the Elbow and Landing.
If it were up to me, I'd place the exhibition hall on the courthouse site (with street level retail facing Bay) and I'd RFP the City Hall Annex building for a mixed use retrofit (market rate apartments and ground floor retail).
I also think, if things go well, you do have the opportunity to, in 15-20 years, expand to the Sheriff's Office/Jail site.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 02:45:51 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 02:27:49 PM
Okay - after reading through those I can't believe anyone is seriously in favor of the Bay St site. Tear down the Hermiker Block for a parking garage? I don't even know where to begin with that. There isn't a CC consultant alive that would recommend that proposal today. Those that would have all been fired.
We don't need to tear the Hermiker down. That aside, let's focus on the exhibition hall. What negatives do you see in placing that plan on the City Hall Annex or larger courthouse site? That box, combined with the Hyatt's existing amount of meeting space fulfills the requirements identified for a convention center in the local market. COJ also owns the land. Any amount of extra foot traffic on Bay and the riverwalk will benefit the Elbow and Landing.
If it were up to me, I'd place the exhibition hall on the courthouse site (with street level retail facing Bay) and I'd RFP the City Hall Annex building for a mixed use retrofit (market rate apartments and ground floor retail).
Love it, but curious what happens to the Prime Osborne under this scenario?
Is it mothballed in hopes of returning it to transit use one day? Any guess on a time table for that?
Makes a ton of sense, but I'd hate to see the old girl get the wrecking ball if transit doesn't work out.
JTA for years has talked about bringing Amtrak back to the old train station as a future phase of the JRTC. Brightline has also mentioned the possibility of expanding to Jax. Commuter rail is also in JTA's long term plans. If either or all come downtown, using the old terminal for what it was built for makes all the sense in the world. Given the land around it, you could end up with a great TOD opportunity for an entity like AAF/Brightline as well. Freeing up the terminal to serve as a future passenger rail hub is another major reason to get the convention center out of there.
So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.
1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition. You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other. It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.
2) It is waterfront land
3) No room for expansion
4) No parking
5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.
6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site
7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)
9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive
10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs. You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.
Those are just off the top of my head.
Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.
1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition. You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other. It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.
True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street.
2) It is waterfront land
Ok?
3) No room for expansion
It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt.
4) No parking
This is the biggest problem.
5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.
Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site.
6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site
True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub.
7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others.
8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)
I don't understand this one.
9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive
So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical.
10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs. You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.
I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart.
Those are just off the top of my head.
IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 11:18:18 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 11, 2014, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 09:53:49 AM
I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.
you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time. Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.
So basically this, which allows the City Hall Annex to be retrofitted with a new use:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Civic-Council-Hyatt-Convention/i-mtMbxcG/0/L/Hyatt%20Convention%202-L.jpg)
Has anyone considered taking out Market St. and using part of the City Hall Annex property up to the tower to expand the space available? If anyone wants to go to the Hyatt from that direction it can be on Liberty St. behind the new Convention Center or Newnan?
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 04:45:42 PM
IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.
The Northbank is full of surface lots and garages that are half empty during times when most major convention center events are held. Parking isn't a significant issue to overcome. The lot sizes are fine too because all you're adding is an exhibition hall and not an entire complex from scratch.
Regarding transit, hotel guests are likely to use the water taxi, which would provide direct service to a waterfront convention center.
Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.
So now we are talking about closing streets that provide access to the City's new park/marina and having the river walk go right past the loading bays and dumpsters. Walkable urbanism didn't even take 24 hours to bite the dust...on a site that should be promoting walkable urbanism above all else.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 05:08:25 PM
Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.
The exhibit space has to be column free. It isn't cheap and if you want to put something on top it is even more expensive.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 04:54:00 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 11:18:18 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 11, 2014, 10:14:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 11, 2014, 09:53:49 AM
I've grown to value the City Hall Annex but I'll admit that the amount of bird's taken out for the one stone tossed (and it's potential cost), provides incentive to re-evaluate my initial thoughts.
you could likely fit the same size building on the Old Courthouse property, and not lose the City Hall Annex building at this time. Connection with the Hyatt could be made via a diagonal skybridge and easily be served by the Hyatt's back-of-house operations area.
So basically this, which allows the City Hall Annex to be retrofitted with a new use:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Civic-Council-Hyatt-Convention/i-mtMbxcG/0/L/Hyatt%20Convention%202-L.jpg)
Has anyone considered taking out Market St. and using part of the City Hall Annex property up to the tower to expand the space available? If anyone wants to go to the Hyatt from that direction it can be on Liberty St. behind the new Convention Center or Newnan?
There's a lot of ways to tie things together. For example, you could build over market and directly connect into the east concourse of the Hyatt's second floor. Other than actually committing to do something, figuring out a design isn't a complex thing.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 05:13:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 05:08:25 PM
Last, the Prime Osborn is a two story center. There is a second floor with meeting rooms. Nevertheless, vertical construction of a medical center or office building is different than building what is essentially a Walmart box with a better facade. The costs to add to something existing will be much cheaper than building everything from scratch....including another vertical hotel.
The exhibit space has to be column free. It isn't cheap and if you want to put something on top it is even more expensive.
Whatever you think the cost may be, the proposal below will easily cost two to three times as much. New convention center from scratch (exhibition hall + ballrooms + everything else, etc.), new parking garage (I assume multiple levels) with a new hotel on top (more multiple levels). Then once you spend the extra millions, you're still in an isolated spot that doesn't generate one ounce of additional business to all the struggling merchants and vacant storefronts standing in the heart of the downtown core. This is what we've been doing for the last 40 years. Spending too much on public projects that are spaced too far a part to create any type of pedestrian scale synergy in the downtown core to be noticeable.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 10:42:09 AM
What if the existing facility was detached from the train station and rotated to be oriented towards Bay St? It could create a nice street wall along that part of Bay, use existing transportation investments, and 3 sides don't need money spent on pedestrian orientation. Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/MetroJax/newJaxCC_zpsmtjyve93.jpg)
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 04:45:42 PM
Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.
1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition. You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other. It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.
True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street. - Closing streets that lead to the waterfront?
2) It is waterfront land
Ok? It's highest and best use in not an exhibit hall
3) No room for expansion
It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt. Again, closing streets that lead to the waterfront. I'm not even sure that is allowed by City Code.
4) No parking
This is the biggest problem.
5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.
Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site. There are some surface parking lots near by, but they are actively used. Not insurmountable but not vacant.
6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site
True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub. It would be connected to the convention center if it stays where it is.
7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others.
There is no "behind this building" at this location.
8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)
I don't understand this one. SMG controls the current PO. They are going to have to control then meeting and exhibit space. That is how they book conventions.
9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive
So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical. Lakelander is talking about ground level retail, then I presume so amount of space over that. The exhibit hall will need at a minimum 35' ceilings, and maybe even 50'. Those are some large blank walls.
10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs. You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.
I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart. You move food for 500 people down the sidewalk?
Those are just off the top of my head.
IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 05:08:25 PM
The Northbank is full of surface lots and garages that are half empty during times when most major convention center events are held. Parking isn't a significant issue to overcome.
Are you thinking this is just go to stay a Saturday/Sunday venue for local events like cheer competitions and car shows. The primary usage for convention centers is Mon-TH from 9AM to 4PM. There will be competition for parking from downtown businesses.
Granted, the current Events calendar isn't overly crowded, but if we are going to spend money shouldn't we end up with something a bit more marketable?
I made this map of downtown Jax a few years back. At the time, everything in red was either a vacant lot or surface parking.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/1360076259_nnJL9XK-L.jpg)
Downtown Jax has a lot of obstacles. But the amount of parking spaces available isn't one of them.
So two white spots jump out at me - the cluster along Laura Street, and the blocks surrounding this site. If access to available development space is critical then LaVilla wins hands down.
Anyhow - it is the weekend and I have plans, Peace out everyone and enjoy the weekend.
If we need another garage, just for the hell of it, I'd target the JEA site at the SE corner of Ocean & Bay (1/2 block away), the lot at the NE corner of Bay and Newnan (across the street) or the SW corner of Liberty & Forsyth (1/2 block away). Supplement that with JTA's Skyway AV route down Bay, which can directly tie people into massive lots at Everbank Field, the JRTC and Kings Avenue Garage. You can also beef up the water taxi system to better tie the Southbank and Northbank hotels together with the facility and other destinations along the urban riverfront.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 05:26:34 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 04:45:42 PM
Some good thoughts here. But I think those negatives are probably overstated.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 04:31:00 PM
So here is my issue with the site you are in favor of.
1) Separate facilities for meeting space and exhibition. You would have to walk outside to get from one to the other. It is only a matter of time before someone proposes a skywalk.
True, unless they included the old City Hall location. Then at least that part could be connected to the Hyatt rather easily. We could also close down that stretch of Market Street. - Closing streets that lead to the waterfront?
It's one option, yes. There could still be a pedestrian walkway to get to the river.
2) It is waterfront land
Ok? It's highest and best use in not an exhibit hall
Maybe, but it would be a good use of land considering the waterfront hotel that's already there.
3) No room for expansion
It doesn't seem likely we'll need to expand it, especially if it includes the Courthouse lot, the City Hall lot and the Hyatt. Again, closing streets that lead to the waterfront. I'm not even sure that is allowed by City Code.
The street wouldn't need to be closed off (though it could be). But expansion is probably not necessary regardless.
4) No parking
This is the biggest problem.
5) No room for secondary hotels (not everyone has the per diem to stay at the Hyatt) and out of a 1000 rooms, only about 300 to 350 would be blocked for convention use anyhow.
Yes, there are. There are many empty lots within blocks of this site. There are some surface parking lots near by, but they are actively used. Not insurmountable but not vacant.
The point is there are plenty of places within blocks where new hotels could go.
6) No existing mass transit infrastructure - and all future mass transit infrastructure is already being built at the old site
True, but Bay Street is on the list for Skyway expansion. There are also buses. The transit center isn't really connected to much even if it's the hub. It would be connected to the convention center if it stays where it is.
Correct, but it's not connected to much else without expansion. Expansion is necessary regardless of what happens with the convention center.
7) No dead sides for loading bays and 'back of house' operations.
Says who? The Hyatt handles loading behind the building; something similar could be done with any others.
There is no "behind this building" at this location.
This is all hypothetical, but one option that pops into my head are building the dock at the western part of the alley where the Hyatt already does its loading.
8. SMG won't have meeting space available unless Hyatt wants to turn their meeting space over to it (which is doubtful)
I don't understand this one. SMG controls the current PO. They are going to have to control then meeting and exhibit space. That is how they book conventions.
So build some offices for SMG into the exhibition space, or work a deal with the Hyatt. Not really a big deal.
9) Vertical construction gets crazy expensive
So keep it limited. The Prime Osborn isn't vertical. Lakelander is talking about ground level retail, then I presume so amount of space over that. The exhibit hall will need at a minimum 35' ceilings, and maybe even 50'. Those are some large blank walls.
10) Catering becomes very difficult - you need two kitchens and two wait staffs. You can't just carry food down the sidewalk from the Hyatt kitchen to the expo space.
I doubt this would be much of a big deal. Either add extra kitchen space, or ferry it over. We do that at UNF to buildings that are much farther apart. You move food for 500 people down the sidewalk?
We put them in vehicles and drive them where they need to go.
Those are just off the top of my head.
IMO, the biggest problems are going to be size over the lots and parking. The latter is workable, but the former really isn't.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 05:43:11 PM
If we need another garage, just for the hell of it, I'd target the JEA site at the SE corner of Ocean & Bay (1/2 block away), the lot at the NE corner of Bay and Newnan (across the street) or the SW corner of Liberty & Forsyth (1/2 block away). Supplement that with JTA's Skyway AV route down Bay, which can directly tie people into massive lots at Everbank Field, the JRTC and Kings Avenue Garage. You can also beef up the water taxi system to better tie the Southbank and Northbank hotels together with the facility and other destinations along the urban riverfront.
A convention center would never be built with no dedicated parking nearby, whether there's a wider parking problem or not. But it's not insurmountable. I'd think something like the JEA site and adjacent lot could be made into a big garage while sparing the Hermiker and the building next to it.
My overall point is that I don't consider parking to be a major problem. There's several lots, garages and surface lots in the near vicinity to handle it. For example, the Landing needs a certain amount of dedicated parking spaces. At one point, instead of building a new garage, a preliminary deal had been worked out to buy an existing nearby surface lot to serve as that role. Obviously, it fell through but finding a solution for parking isn't much of a major concern to me, since it will be the same for any site outside of the existing location.
To provide a potential idea of the cost to add an exhibition hall, the Sharonville Convention Center (Cincinnati) is considering spending $8 to $10 million to double their exhibition hall to 40,000 SF. That's roughly $500/SF.
(http://www.associationnews.com/anews/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2.-Sharonville-CC.jpg)
QuoteSharonville Convention Center may be poised for expansion
SHARONVILLE – The Sharonville Convention Center could be one step closer to an expansion that would create exhibition space that's not offered elsewhere in Hamilton County....
....The study also agreed that the city is at risk of losing clients as events outgrow Sharonville's maximum 20,500 square-feet of space, concluding that this loss could be significant.
The expansion would double the current space, filling the exhibition gap in Hamilton County. The 40,000 square-foot space would generate about $27.6 million in direct and indirect spending within five years, the study found.
The 2012 renovation of the convention center was built with expansion in mind, Downton said. The exhibit hall has a temporary wall that can be removed easily for the expansion. It was constructed using architectural metal panels instead of masronry, so they could be dismantled more easily for an addition.
Two previous construction studies, by CT Consultants and Megan Construction, outlined the feasibility of expansion, citing the forethought of a temporary wall, yearlong build time, and cost of $8 million to $10 million.
"When the building was built, the space ratio was very well balanced, with the exception of the exhibit hall," Downton said. "We have good ballroom, meeting, and public space. But our exhibit hall is very small and out of alignment with the space in the building. That's verified through both (of the earlier) studies.
Full article: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/local/sharonville/2017/03/10/sharonville-convention-center-may-poised-expansion/99023300/In addition, a separate deal was put together in 2015 to add a $14 million, 120-unit (select service) Hyatt Place at the convention center.
http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/04/01/sharonville-convention-center-names-hotel-brand.html
At a similar cost per SF, a 100,000 space next to the Hyatt Riverfront would put you in the range of $40 to $50 million to construct. However, you wouldn't need to worry about adding a hotel, since there's a full service, 1,000 room hotel already in place.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Dena%27ina_Civic_and_Convention_Center._Anchorage%2C_Alaska.jpg/1920px-Dena%27ina_Civic_and_Convention_Center._Anchorage%2C_Alaska.jpg)
To build from scratch in 2008, the The Dena'ina Civic and Convention Center in downtown Anchorage cost $111 million. It's a three story complex with a 47,400 SF exhibition hall (street level), 11,000 SF of meeting rooms (second level), 25,000 SF ballroom (third level). Assuming something built from the ground up in Jax, needs about double the amount of space, you could be looking at +$200 million for a new full blown convention center (excluding cost to build hotel). In Anchorage's case, they didn't build a hotel. There's a 20-story, 392 room Marriott one block away.
With the Jags plan showing their own hotel and convention facility, it will be interesting to see how much money they're willing to pour into it, how much they want from taxpayers and their anticipated development timeline.
Another article:
http://jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-03-26/prime-osborn-convention-center-demand-trade-shows-few-conventions
Quote[Downtown] opportunities were one of the main topics Mayor Lenny Curry covered when he met Wednesday morning with the Times-Union Editorial Board. On Curry's drawing board are possibilities like a convention center and hotel where the old city hall and courthouse now stand, more residences Downtown, more entertainment opportunities, development of the old Shipyards site and either the removal or completion of the Berkman Plaza eyesore.
Interesting tidbit from Ron Littlepage and the Times-Union. Hopefully they are thinking about combining the two properties, getting rid of Market Street south of Bay Street, and incorporating the City Hall Annex Tower into a plan for a Hotel. That would create a ton of hotel rooms on site for conventions.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2017-06-23/ron-littlepage-progress-laura-street-trio-game-changer-downtown
Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?
If COJ does something with the old City Hall Annex, they should consider market rate housing. If they're willing to give up the structure at a significant discount, that could make overall renovation costs more viable to private sector developers. Nevertheless, I'm glad to hear Curry is talking about moving the convention center. That's one of the better things his administration can do to help enhance the Northbank atmosphere.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 28, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?
Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 28, 2017, 01:05:52 PM
If they're willing to give up the structure at a significant discount, that could make overall renovation costs more viable to private sector developers.
Here, I'll write the RFP for them:
Waterfront Government Building to be converted into Ground Floor commercial space & residential units.
Shell and existing structural members must remain intact during construction.
$5M to be put in escrow by developer upon award of RFP to be refunded within 60 days after C/O.
$15M incentive package to be awarded after C/O of property. (Prop. Appr. has valued at $17M)
Yeah, it's basic, but it covers our ass and basically gives the property away to someone willing to develop it. If there's no takers, what's lost? If they bite and bail, the city pockets $5M. This doesn't seem difficult.
How much time do we think the current Police Memorial Building will remain adequate for JSO? It was built 40 years ago. Maybe 10-20 more years? That has always been a site thrown around, even for a potential convention center expansion years down the line if we did move forward with the Courthouse/Annex site.
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 28, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 28, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?
Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?
Only if you host the kind of conventions that draw large amounts of visitors. Jacksonville won't host those kind of conventions until they obtain enough attractions/amenities to rival an Orlando, San Diego, or Las Vegas. Until that happens, it will be boat shows and Z-list celebrity comic-cons for downtown Jax.
Quote from: Todd_Parker on June 28, 2017, 04:21:00 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 28, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 28, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?
Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?
Only if you host the kind of conventions that draw large amounts of visitors. Jacksonville won't host those kind of conventions until they obtain enough attractions/amenities to rival an Orlando, San Diego, or Las Vegas. Until that happens, it will be boat shows and Z-list celebrity comic-cons for downtown Jax.
I have been to a lot of mid-range convention centers in places like Tampa, Birmingham, Baltimore, Chattanooga, etc. Usually at least two hotels around.
Additional hotels tend to come along as the market grows to support their operation. Growing up in Central Florida, I can say this was definitely the case with Tampa's. I'm not sure downtown Jax's market demands several new hotels but we're getting another one in the form of the Laura Trio soon. A decent centralized convention center would at least help the stabilize existing hotels like the Hyatt and Omni. If they're successful, more will naturally come.
^It'll probably also make it easier to book conferences with an updated center that's actually designed for it, and has nearby lodging.
Yeah the courthouse site is easily walkable from all of the major hotels downtown. Including the Doubletree on the southbank.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 28, 2017, 04:37:28 PM
Additional hotels tend to come along as the market grows to support their operation. Growing up in Central Florida, I can say this was definitely the case with Tampa's. I'm not sure downtown Jax's market demands several new hotels but we're getting another one in the form of the Laura Trio soon. A decent centralized convention center would at least help the stabilize existing hotels like the Hyatt and Omni. If they're successful, more will naturally come.
Understandable. Are you in favor of demolishing the Annex as part of the convention center or keeping the tower at least in some form?
I prefer seeing it saved. I hate losing built density in downtown because if reactivated, more tax revenue and foot traffic is generated. If demolished, we won't be getting anything new that packs that much space vertically. I personally believe the old Annex would be a perfect candidate for market rate housing. However, saving it only works if you build an exhibition hall on the old courthouse site and connect it, via a skywalk, to the Hyatt's meeting spaces. If COJ wants to build a full convention center, it's probably a goner.
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 28, 2017, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Todd_Parker on June 28, 2017, 04:21:00 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 28, 2017, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 28, 2017, 12:50:28 PM
Why would you want a hotel at City Hall Annex/Old courthouse when there is already a huge one there?
Aren't there normally a few hotels around a convention center?
Only if you host the kind of conventions that draw large amounts of visitors. Jacksonville won't host those kind of conventions until they obtain enough attractions/amenities to rival an Orlando, San Diego, or Las Vegas. Until that happens, it will be boat shows and Z-list celebrity comic-cons for downtown Jax.
I have been to a lot of mid-range convention centers in places like Tampa, Birmingham, Baltimore, Chattanooga, etc. Usually at least two hotels around.
Keep in mind that the Hyatt has over 1,000 rooms. It is a big as two hotels would normally be all by itself.
According to AG Garcarski, both the Courthouse and Annex are going to be demo'd:
QuoteMovement on a recurrent issue: $3.6M for courthouse remediation and demolition; $4.4M for the same for old city hall, which includes asbestos remediation, with the properties will be returned to greenscape. Mousa speculates that implosion will be the end game for these structures.
The last $8M for Liberty/Coastline rebuild, completing a $31M obligation, is also in the CIP.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/241515-lenny-currys-third-budget-another-year-of-winning
Makes me think the other shoe will drop soon on a convention center there.
Well, I guess that's that.
If the city wants to demolish something, they ought to demolish the eyesore that is the parking garage at the foot of the Main Street Bridge (across from Cowford Chophouse). Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure its privately owned and the tenants of the Independent Life, er Modis, er Wells Fargo Building would never let that happen, at least now without a replacement.
That garage is privately owned. My guess is that the courthouse/city hall annex demo is to make way for a future convention center.
Do we really need a convention center? Wouldn't that money be better spent on more pressing issues?
A convention center would be a good use of money. However it depends on the plans.
Quote from: MusicMan on July 15, 2017, 10:13:55 AM
Do we really need a convention center? Wouldn't that money be better spent on more pressing issues?
From a downtown development standpoint, outside of subsidizing residential development, I can't think of a better use of money, can you?
I'm just looking at the convention business in the state/region, and I know nothing about it.
Who would we be competing with? What nearby markets can you point to today that are successful at drawing convention business? Doesn't Daytona Beach have a convention center? How busy are they? Obviously we cannot compete with Tampa, and Disney/Orlando for large conventions? How many nights a year will it be booked? How successful are start ups in this industry? From zero to how many conventions a year are we looking at? What role does the COC play in this? What experience do they have in this business?
The title of the thread implies doing it on the cheap. How has that fared in other cities?
I actually work downtown, and drive through it on the weekends frequently. That's something our City Council should do at least once a month. I'm skeptical.
^The convention issue has been discussed here pretty extensively, including in this thread. The main consideration is that we're already in the convention market with the Prime Osborn, so it's more a matter of trying to improve our prospects, rather than starting something from scratch. We don't have to compete with Orlando or Tampa to get our slice of pie.
The Prime Osborn had a good run, but it's never been a great convention center. We can expect an updated center that's adjacent to the main hotel (the Hyatt) to do better than the Prime Osborn. Because the courthouse site is in the center of downtown instead of an isolated building surrounded by empty lots, we can also expect the impact of attendees on the surrounding area will be higher.
The impact will come down to the design and the expense. To me, and I imagine others here, there's a real opportunity cost in losing the old City Hall building - it'll be a very long time before we see that kind of density in the Downtown core again. At the same time, the Courthouse site alone is not big enough to build a convention center that would exceed the quality of the Prime Osborn. That's why Ennis' idea of sort of combining the Courthouse site with the Hyatt is compelling - if it would work, we'd get an impressive impact without the full expense. Either way, a new convention center would be a good use of money, and this is the best location for it.
FWIW, Orlando is doing close to a $5M remodel to the OCCC starting after the summer to be complete by the first part of next year. Basically finishes only. And I worked on another one about twice this scope about 3 years ago.
Is that something we would ever be able to compete against? I don't think so.
We don't compete against Orlando now. That's not the goal of moving the existing convention center out of the Prime Osborn. The goal would be to cluster complementing uses (exhibition hall, hotel rooms, restuarants, bars, shops, etc.) with a compact setting (right next to each other instead of a mile apart). The other major benefit is that the Prime Osborn can then be converted into a complementing use to the transportation center going up across the street.....an intercity passenger rail station, which is what it was designed for in the beginning.
I always felt the combing of site of the hotel to the other high rise would work well. The new part could be where the courthouse stood. Is the parking garage next to the Hyatt usable space or would an s configuration cause problems? I know I've heard continuous space is important, but not sure why. With all 4 parcels connected, that would give us twice the space of the PO I would guess.
My understanding is that JAX is not competitive at all for the vast majority of convention business and it has been that way for many years. Building a new facility that I assume would be bigger would indeed be starting at zero because JAX has not been on the short list previously.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the plans but these centers cost a lot of money. I have to be convinced that it is the best use of the money.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 16, 2017, 08:41:25 AM
My understanding is that JAX is not competitive at all for the vast majority of convention business and it has been that way for many years. Building a new facility that I assume would be bigger would indeed be starting at zero because JAX has not been on the short list previously.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the plans but these centers cost a lot of money. I have to be convinced that it is the best use of the money.
I'm sure they'll get right back to you with that.
Look, like it or not, Jax is already in the convention market. The facility we have isn't competitive and won't ever be, and having it there mostly precludes it from ever returning to the function it was built for, which is a transportation center.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 16, 2017, 10:23:24 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 16, 2017, 08:41:25 AM
My understanding is that JAX is not competitive at all for the vast majority of convention business and it has been that way for many years. Building a new facility that I assume would be bigger would indeed be starting at zero because JAX has not been on the short list previously.
I'll reserve judgment until I see the plans but these centers cost a lot of money. I have to be convinced that it is the best use of the money.
I'm sure they'll get right back to you with that.
Look, like it or not, Jax is already in the convention market. The facility we have isn't competitive and won't ever be, and having it there mostly precludes it from ever returning to the function it was built for, which is a transportation center.
If by in the market, you mean there is a facility that hosts events than mainly draws locals, like Boat Shows and Gun shows, then yes. If you mean a facility that draws overnight visitors on a continual basis, that is not the perception I have gotten over the many years this has been debated. Your best point is that the building probably has a higher and better use. If you can get a facility for $50mm that is bigger and better then it is probably worth it. My guess is it will be at least twice that. I'm not sure that makes sense.
QuoteIf by in the market, you mean there is a facility that hosts events than mainly draws locals, like Boat Shows and Gun shows, then yes.
Hyatt draws people from outside the local market. I've been a part of conferences in the past that have utilized Hyatt instead of the Prime Osborn. An exhibition hall connected to its 1,000 hotel rooms would only increase the amount of events it already pulls. As for the Prime Osborn, DT Jax businesses would get a boost simply from shifting the trade shows and conventions it does draw, to a more centralized location. Locals eat and drink too, and would be more likely to do so in the establishments immediately surrounding it. Currently, people park in a dirt lot off I-95 and immediately leave afterward, since the ramp is right there. That's the benefit of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting, IMO. Pack enough stuff in the heart of the Northbank, and some other issues, like the retail leasing power of the Landing, will solve themselves on their own. Location-wise, it's a much better spot and investment, then having something similar built out near EverBank Field and funneling tax money into it.
Nevertheless, who knows what they'll do and what it will cost at this point? Would it be a part of a larger plan, which could include a public private partnership? Would it be just an exhibition hall attached to the Hyatt, like Civic Council recommendation from years ago? Or would it be a place that duplicates many of the spaces already existing in the Hyatt? These are thing things that will let us truly evaluate the pros and cons.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2017, 06:26:23 AM
QuoteIf by in the market, you mean there is a facility that hosts events than mainly draws locals, like Boat Shows and Gun shows, then yes.
Hyatt draws people from outside the local market. I've been a part of conferences in the past that have utilized Hyatt instead of the Prime Osborn. An exhibition hall connected to its 1,000 hotel rooms would only increase the amount of events it already pulls. As for the Prime Osborn, DT Jax businesses would get a boost simply from shifting the trade shows and conventions it does draw, to a more centralized location. Locals eat and drink too, and would be more likely to do so in the establishments immediately surrounding it. Currently, people park in a dirt lot off I-95 and immediately leave afterward, since the ramp is right there. That's the benefit of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting, IMO. Pack enough stuff in the heart of the Northbank, and some other issues, like the retail leasing power of the Landing, will solve themselves on their own. Location-wise, it's a much better spot and investment, then having something similar built out near EverBank Field and funneling tax money into it.
Nevertheless, who knows what they'll do and what it will cost at this point? Would it be a part of a larger plan, which could include a public private partnership? Would it be just an exhibition hall attached to the Hyatt, like Civic Council recommendation from years ago? Or would it be a place that duplicates many of the spaces already existing in the Hyatt? These are thing things that will let us truly evaluate the pros and cons.
It is necessary. Looking forward to seeing the plan on the Mayor's desk sooner than later but count on a public-private partnership of some sort. Likewise, it may not be right next to the stadium, but for an NFL Draft, CFB Playoff Championship, Florida-Georgia, or even a Super Bowl in 15 years, this site is very convenient to the stadium in comparison to most sites. Atlanta and Indianapolis might be the only sites more convenient to an NFL stadium.
Mayor apparently said in press conference today he wants to demo ASAP.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 17, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
Mayor apparently said in press conference today he wants to demo ASAP.
Of course he did.
Nothing says progress quite like some dynamite and excavators... ::)
(https://media.giphy.com/media/d31wQuXOjclrjr6E/giphy.gif)
(http://payload424.cargocollective.com/1/19/618954/10799402/pruittigoe.gif)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2017, 11:44:21 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 17, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
Mayor apparently said in press conference today he wants to demo ASAP.
Of course he did.
Nothing says progress quite like some dynamite and excavators... ::)
LOL. Apparently there is some remediation work necessary on the property as well which will take a bit.
I really like Curry's aggression on downtown, but the speculative destruction worries me. A lot of talk and a lot of financial commitment toward removing things from downtown - the old Courthouse, the Annex, Coastline Drive, Metro Park, the Hart Expressway ramps, potentially the JEA building, Berkman II, even the Landing - without a whole lot of specifics about what will be taking their place. Downtown has density problems already, personally, I'd rather see the money be spent on build-out rather than teardown. Or, if we are spending money on the wrecking ball, very clearly lay out what the ultimate goal is.
Also, can someone explain to me why the Laura Street Trio project was held up for years over $7 million in incentives, and now we're giving Edward Waters an $8 million handout?
I just had this conversation at work.
1. Everything was on hold until the pension situation was resolved. Curry kept to his word on that one. So we should forget about timelines associated with anything prior to that.
2. Every project should be evaluated on their individual merits. The argument for investing millions on the private Laura Trio was built around economic development and downtown revitalization. One can make the same argument for investing in a private college that serves as the economic anchor for a distressed inner city neighborhood one mile west of downtown. From what I understand, the $8 million would be for college dorms (college students living and spending their money in the inner city is a good thing) and recreational facilities that would also be available to the surrounding community. I don't know if you all have had an opportunity to visit New Town, but it has a high population of children with little to no active recreational spaces. Charlotte gave away a lot more to lure a private college to Uptown in the early 2000s. That investment paid off pretty handsomely for them.
At this point, I believe more detail is needed on these initiatives to really evaluate the pros and cons. For now, I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt and press for more information.
3. I totally agree with the destruction talk. Doesn't seem like we've learned anything over the last 40 years other than we like blowing stuff up. On one hand, the renewed interest in downtown revitalization is exciting. On the other hand, it's outright scary.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2017, 01:02:27 PM
Also, can someone explain to me why the Laura Street Trio project was held up for years over $7 million in incentives, and now we're giving Edward Waters an $8 million handout?
In addition to what Ennis said, also the Recession chained with leadership issues on the city's part.
Recession has a huge impact. I agree on wanting to see some real solid plans before just destroying the Courthouse/Annex. I think the Mayor is just trying to move this convention center a long but we will only truly know when the plans are out there finally. I do think the investment in a convention center will create positives in the Berkman II and Landing potential redevelopment/refurb. Likewise, I was driving through Bay St. this weekend around 12:30-1 am, and the place was absolutely dead. We have to bring some life to the area. Again, it would be nice to keep the tower portion of the Annex building for its density but it does seem like a convention center is the goal from all indications. If it is designed and done right with retail, it could be a massive improvement for Bay St. and downtown.
QuoteAlso, can someone explain to me why the Laura Street Trio project was held up for years over $7 million in incentives, and now we're giving Edward Waters an $8 million handout?
It did strike me as unusual and opens the door for other private colleges to do likewise. Typically dorms are self-funding or nearly so. Spending money to bring a new college to town would not only involve bringing students but also jobs to town.
I don't remember all the details, but the incentives for Johnson Wales to move to Charlotte were significantly if not mostly from private sources.
seems like a favor to the brosche council coalition that they will likely be asked to be repay, no?
Alright Ennis,
Still like your mock up with what the DIA is apparently putting out there?
Would love to set the standard of what should be expected out of a convention center before we see these proposals.
QuoteProject requirements include at least 200,000 square feet of public exhibit space, at least a 40,000-square-foot ballroom, at least 45 meeting rooms, the hotel and other space.
A feasibility analysis shows the total construction cost of a 200,000 square foot exhibit hall at $250-$430 million.
The parking garage would be at least 400 spaces and convention center parking would need at least 1,300 spaces.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-seek-proposals-for-downtown-riverfront-convention-center
Where do they fit the parking? On the JEA Generator site for the 400 space parking garage?
Could they tack on Berkman II to this somehow?
Reminder that bids are unsealed tomorrow at 2:00 PM.
Lots of buzz about interested parties, not sure how many will actually materialize.
My money's on Hyatt winning this thing.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 31, 2018, 10:43:09 AM
Reminder that bids are unsealed tomorrow at 2:00 PM.
Lots of buzz about interested parties, not sure how many will actually materialize.
My money's on Hyatt winning this thing.
I hope the Hyatt wins too. They seem to have the money with how much they just spent on purchasing the hotel and the most vested interest.
Any word on the bids ??
Quote from: vicupstate on August 01, 2018, 04:00:09 PM
Any word on the bids ??
According to Biz Journals, 2 Texas companies (Preston Hollow & Jacobs Engineering Group) and 1 local (Rimrock Devlin). Plans will not be available to the public for 30 days.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/01/two-texas-companies-local-firm-bid-for-convention.html
Apparently, it is good to repeat yourself. A feasibility report commissioned in 2014 noted that Jacksonville was not on the radar as a convention destination. "Over 80 percent of the meeting and event planners that were interviewed felt that Jacksonville was 'not on the radar' as a large meeting or convention destination," the report said.
From https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/01/two-texas-companies-local-firm-bid-for-convention.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/01/two-texas-companies-local-firm-bid-for-convention.html)
Quote from: Kiva on August 01, 2018, 06:31:54 PM
Apparently, it is good to repeat yourself. A feasibility report commissioned in 2014 noted that Jacksonville was not on the radar as a convention destination. "Over 80 percent of the meeting and event planners that were interviewed felt that Jacksonville was 'not on the radar' as a large meeting or convention destination," the report said.
From https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/01/two-texas-companies-local-firm-bid-for-convention.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/01/two-texas-companies-local-firm-bid-for-convention.html)
^The full study was much more nuanced than this single line, however. The crux of the study was that 1) the Prime Osborne was actively hurting Jacksonville's reputation as a convention city, with over 80% of meeting planners who held an event there reporting that they wouldn't be returning to Jacksonville, and 2) a new convention center built into 2014 Downtown Jacksonville wouldn't work; however, a new convention center built in conjunction with other downtown redevelopment, such as restaurants, hotels, entertainment, and retail could provide a real spark for downtown redevelopment and for Jacksonville as a convention destination.
If we truly believe that projects like Lot J, the Berkman, the Trio, Atkins JEA concept, the District, Boyer's nodes, the Emerald Necklace, are going to materialize, then now is the time to be having these conversations about how to solve the convention center problem. Now is the time that major meeting planners are booking conventions for 2020 and 2021.
And if we don't, Curry needs to put that $8 million for demolition in a desk drawer somewhere until there's an actual need to knock down the old Courthouse and Annex.
Will be interesting to see if the proposals leak within that 30 day window.
My money is still on Hyatt.
I think they're playing their cards close to their chest and seeing what types of proposals come in.
Remember, whoever the city picks, Hyatt has the right to match.
Which of the bidding developers are linked to Hyatt? Or, is Hyatt going to wait and see what the proposal are, then exercise there their "match" option?
[edited to fix typo]
And here we go with the Crazy:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/02/jaguars-unveil-plans-for-a-convention-center-hotel.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&u=11189397374e6a451121b1b0bac0c5&t=1533219518&j=83051111
500,000 square feet and a 300 room hotel....not sure that math adds up.
Surprise, surprise... Shad Khan jumps into the convention fray by releasing renderings of his Shipyards/Lot J convention center prior to any Courthouse renderings being released, most likely to sway opinion unfavorably for those 3. I personally love the idea of a"Stadium District" with Lot J and the Shipyards, but I think downtown and the city in general, would be served better by the central location of the courthouse/annex building.
Shad's plan just feeds his development and shifts the center from an isolated western location to an isolated eastern location (in context to the CBD and current development)
I'm a much bigger fan of the convention center near the stadium. We've had this discussion in the threads in the past. I understand and appreciate that the old Adams Mark, now Hyatt, would want to benefit from Convention Space, but I just feel a large block building ruins the potential milieu of the core CBD, which I hope will soon be filled with a diversity of dense uses and structures along the length of Bay Street that sits in the CBD. With the stadium, arena, and amphitheater already there, let's just make the Stadium Complex the "Mass Assembly District."
Any chance the courthouse property can be a riverfront square with commercial (mid-rise office, retail, food) uses on the perimeter, like a smaller version of the link below?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pra%C3%A7a_do_Com%C3%A9rcio#/media/File:Lisbon_main_square_(36622604910).jpg
Lol Jax can't support a 500k square foot convention center. This comes across like fool's gold released at a time to sway public opinion. Also, talk about taking a suburban autocentric approach to downtown development. Have we not learned anything over the last 40 years about spreading ourselves too thin to create pedestrian scale synergy?
We're actively using tax dollars to create nodes of development that directly compete with the downtown core. Short of an amphitheater, I don't think there's been one new use suggested at Lot J or Metropolitan Park that does not compete and potentially siphon opportunity for human scale synergy away from the Northbank. Vystar, JEA, the Landing and now a convention center. What's next, city hall and Hemming Park?!
I have a problem with Khan's timing - right after bids are accepted for the Court House site. If he is serious, it would have been better to come forward before the CH bids were due - or even started - and propose serious negotiations with the City. Not just release pretty drawings with no evidence of money to bring them to fruition.
I particularly find it interesting that Rimrock is involved with both the courthouse site and the shipyards site. I wonder if one got the "A" team and the other got the "B" team or if they just repurposed the same design in the both locations or if Rimrock prefers one alternative and tanked the other.
Not saying the result needs to be 500k, but it's not unreasonable to put a sprawling assembly hall outside of the CBD, but still proximal to it.
There's more to all this than meets the eye.
It's going to come down to Khan vs. Hyatt, whether that be Hyatt directly or Hyatt playing nice with one of the developers.
If Hyatt didn't have right of first refusal, I think Iguana would have likely submit a bid on the Courthouse site.
The political games should be fun to watch, and if a new convention center ever does get built, hopefully the multiple suitors result in a better deal for the city.
For the sake of downtown redevelopment, I vastly prefer the Courthouse site. It's probably shovel ready five years before the Shipyards as well between the Hart Bridge ramps and remediation. But in terms of building a successful convention center, I think a location adjacent to Lot J, the Doro District, and the sports complex could be really marketable to meeting planners as well.
The wild news month continues...
Iguana is looking to put the convention center closer to the stadium. See jaxdailyrecord.com.
Here's the site plan:
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
The Courthouse site is the only logical place for a convention center. A convention center a mile away in the stadium district won't have any much more impact on Downtown than the Prime Osborn has. No one is walking from that thing a mile past a coffee plant, jail, police station, etc., to get to the downtown core where the foot traffic and entertainment dollars are most needed.
The Shipyards and Stadium District should focus on adding things that don't directly compete with the Downtown Core. The indoor venue is fine; more housing would be a great add.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2018, 11:50:05 AM
Here's the site plan:
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
So in other words, it's *not* a 500 square foot convention center, it's like 200 square feet and an empty field for theoretical "Future Convention Expansion". Plus a convention hotel to compete with the convention hotel we have now, and a parking garage. Great.
Having Rimrock on both sides of the fence could be problematic. Having been on consultant selection teams, it would play, somehow, in my evaluation, so I assume it will affec the team's deliberations. But how? If you select Rimrock for the CH site, how engaged will they be - or as Itsfantastic pointed out, who gets the "A" team - the City or Khan? Or, because of such doubts, does a reviewer give them fewer points in the evaluation?
A new convention center will require City participation. I will assume the evaluation of the 3 proposals will proceed. But, when will the City make a decision between Khan and the Courthouse site? How long will the CH proposals remain valid, in case the City negotiates with Khan, but can't come to an agreement? If Khan gets the green light, will there be a deadline to start construction? We have seen pretty drawings many times, but no dirt has turned. What about remediation of the Shipyards site - who will undertake that, what will it cost, and how long will it take? Someone upthread opined that a Courthouse site could be well under construction, before remediation is finished.
Or ... is this a negotiating ploy by Khan to get more from the City for his Lot J/Metro Park plans? As a 'consolation prize' for not getting the convention center?
Questions - who will have answers, and when?
ETA - relooking at the renderings, I see they are not on the area commonly called "The Shipyards" - west of Hogan Creek, but that entire area used to be working shipyards, and will likely require remediation before building anything more substantial than a park.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2018, 11:50:05 AM
Here's the site plan:
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
So in other words, it's *not* a 500 square foot convention center, it's like 200 square feet and an empty field for theoretical "Future Convention Expansion". Plus a convention hotel to compete with the convention hotel we have now, and a parking garage. Great.
What I see so far is something that competes with the Northbank for everything. Vystar, JEA, Landing/Lot J, convention center, etc. Complimentary infill development should not necessarily compete head to head (with public assistance) with the real downtown. Is this what Jax really envisions when the term downtown revitalization and vibrancy comes to mind? Are there any successful revitalization stories from peer communities of similiar size that have taken this approach?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 12:11:21 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 02, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2018, 11:50:05 AM
Here's the site plan:
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
So in other words, it's *not* a 500 square foot convention center, it's like 200 square feet and an empty field for theoretical "Future Convention Expansion". Plus a convention hotel to compete with the convention hotel we have now, and a parking garage. Great.
What I see so far is something that competes with the Northbank for everything. Vystar, JEA, Landing/Lot J, convention center, etc. Complimentary infill development should not necessarily compete head to head (with public assistance) with the real downtown. Is this what Jax really envisions when the term downtown revitalization and vibrancy comes to mind? Are there any successful revitalization stories from peer communities of similiar size that have taken this approach?
112 East Bay Street to Marsh Street is 0.4 miles. I don't think the Convention Center set up at the Shipyards is all that big a deal and can still be impactful to all of Downtown. Would the same amount of remediation be required for a Convention Center use versus a Residential use? If so, then the shovel-ready state of the courthouse probably makes sense.
^To make either location work, I think we BADLY need fixed transit down Bay Street, linking the CBD to the sports and entertainment complex. If we end up building at the courthouse site, it'd be a quick, safe streetcar-ish ride down to the sports complex. If we build at the sports complex, it would be a quick, safe ride into the CBD and surrounding hotels (350 ain't a lot for a 200,000 sf convention center). Bonus points if it went all the day down Bay and into Brooklyn. I don't see you promote real synergy between the two areas without transit.
Why measure only to Marsh? What's shown in the renderings is Metropolitan Park. It's literally across the street from Lot J at the stadium around Franklin Street.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2018, 12:54:17 PM
^To make either location work, I think we BADLY need fixed transit down Bay Street, linking the CBD to the sports and entertainment complex. If we end up building at the courthouse site, it'd be a quick, safe streetcar-ish ride down to the sports complex. If we build at the sports complex, it would be a quick, safe ride into the CBD and surrounding hotels (350 ain't a lot for a 200,000 sf convention center). Bonus points if it went all the day down Bay and into Brooklyn. I don't see you promote real synergy between the two areas without transit.
The courthouse site is on the edge of the Northbank core. You would not need transit to make it work. It's easily walkable from the critical mass of built density in the Northbank. At Metropolitan Park, mass transit would help but it would still be a competing isolated node. Might as well build a hotel and shops at the Prime Osborn. With the redevelopment of Brooklyn and LaVilla, access to I-95, the JRTC and the skyway, it's more centralized and cheaper than the Shipyards. Plus they're dumping millions into McCoys Creek. So if we aren't going to cluster for pedestrian scale synergy in the core, give taxpayers a break and leave it where it is.
I think the Courthouse is a better site for the convention center but I don't think it being in the stadium district is a huge problem. The distance isn't that long. Off the top of my head, New Orleans convention center is about the same distance from the French Quarter. Dublin's convention center is farther from the city center along the river.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 12:57:41 PM
Why measure only to Marsh? What's shown in the renderings is Metropolitan Park. It's literally across the street from Lot J at the stadium around Franklin Street.
Just measured. The proposed site is .8 miles from Liberty Street and 1.1 from Main. The Courthouse site is at Liberty Street and .3 miles from Main.
Because that's where you could conceivably enter the sprawling complex. I attend conventions all the time and very often, various elements of the assembly are spread out over a vast area, including day-time lectures versus evening networking events over cocktails, etc. At any rate, I don't know exactly how this complex is being designed or where various gathering places and exhibition spaces will sit, it's merely a guess at how this might work...as we are all guessing. I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on August 02, 2018, 01:22:56 PM
I think the Courthouse is a better site for the convention center but I don't think it being in the stadium district is a huge problem. The distance isn't that long. Off the top of my head, New Orleans convention center is about the same distance from the French Quarter. Dublin's convention center is farther from the city center along the river.
I don't think New Orleans is a good example. Downtown sits in the middle of the French Quarter and the convention center. It's also directly across the street from the warehouse district, which is livelier than anything in all of the Northbank. Even excluding those things, there's Harrah's Casino, the Outlet Collection at Riverwalk (their version of the Landing) and an aquarium forming a continuous line of pedestrian scale activity between the convention center and the French Quarter. I'll admit I'm not too familiar with Dublin but something tells me it's a hell of a lot denser than Jax. So while distance may be similar the level of pedestrian scale activity and built density is night and day to the 28 Days Later environment characterized by the JSO office, jail, Maxwell House and the vacant Shipyards property.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 02:35:27 PM
...At any rate, I don't know exactly how this complex is being designed or where various gathering places and exhibition spaces will sit, it's merely a guess at how this might work...as we are all guessing. I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.
Distance combined with activity at the pedestrian level is one thing. Distance combined with dead space is another. Context is what's key in the have and the have nots. If we're seriously considering Metropolitan Park as a new convention center location, I'm not sure it makes much sense to move it from the Prime Osborn. We'd literally accomplish nothing except of helping create a new node of isolated activity on the other side of downtown, at the expense of what could be a great synergy anchor for the actual historic core....except in this case, the Skyway doesn't connect the two.
Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river. Also, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees. In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.
The center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary. That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein, with its security concerns and supplements.
Again, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive. We're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified. Metro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it? The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 02:35:27 PM
I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.
This. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.
When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 02:48:26 PM
Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river.
I don't think this is a good reason to spend over $100 million on a convention center. If we're going to invest that type of public capital on a project like this, it needs to be in the best position to stimulate additional economic benefit...not only in terms of future development but also existing businesses, residents and development.
QuoteAlso, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees. In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.
I'm not debating the need for investment in a convention facility. I'm questioning the need to spend millions in a manner that limits spin-off economic opportunity.
QuoteThe center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary. That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein.
Definitely not buying this. This is grasping at straws. Nothing at the courthouse site is paralyzing the CBD or the "dense" residential complexes therein. Quite frankly, it is on the edge of the actual downtown core.
QuoteAgain, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive.
Take a look at this plan. The entrance (#2) aligns with Franklin Street. You can see the stadium parking lot across the street. The building turns its back to downtown (notice location of truck docks #3) and Gator Bowl Boulevard.
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
QuoteWe're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified.
We're where we were in 2006. A slew of highly conceptual proposals coming on line with an upcoming recession following to kill most of the ones that don't break ground within the next year or so.
QuoteMetro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it? The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?
See graphics above. Metro Park was once a part of the shipyards complex that originally lined Bay Street. However, technically it's just east of what we call the shipyards today and roughly right across the street from the stadium and its adjacent parking lots.
Quote from: RiversideRambler on August 02, 2018, 02:55:15 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 02:35:27 PM
I just don't think the distances between spots is as big a deal as it's being made out to be by some on here.
This. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.
When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.
I believe when we're talking about maximizing public investment things aren't as simple as saying someone will Uber. Isn't the major goal of all the downtown revitalization talk is actual revitalization of downtown? Also aren't places we associate with vibrancy strongly linked to walkability and pedestrian scale interaction? Just look at your own post above in bold. If these things are true, why would we not value them in the planning process of every downtown revitalization project we take on? Why spend millions on things that go against the nature of what people prefer in urban environments?
One of the most frustrating things about Jacksonville is that we don't learn from our past mistakes. We've burnt hundreds of millions on the name of downtown revitalization since the 1960s and we're still not there yet because our investments have been spread too thin to create the synergy needed at the human scale level.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 02:48:26 PM
Don't leave it where it is because it wouldn't be on the river.
I don't think this is a good reason to spend over $100 million on a convention center. If we're going to invest that type of public capital on a project like this, it needs to be in the best position to stimulate additional economic benefit...not only in terms of future development but also existing businesses, residents and development.
QuoteAlso, while Jax may not attract this calibur of convention right away, some convention gatherings feature very high-profile government officials as featured speakers, and still other gatherings include politically exposed persons as the primary attendees. In other words, some gatherings require an extensive security apparatus.
I'm not debating the need for investment in a convention facility. I'm questioning the need to spend millions in a manner that limits spin-off economic opportunity.
QuoteThe center having just a tad bit of breathing room away from a tightly-clustered density of other uses could be a good thing for any major security apparatuses necessary. That way, such events don't paralyze the business district and dense residential complexes therein.
Definitely not buying this. This is grasping at straws. Nothing at the courthouse site is paralyzing the CBD or the "dense" residential complexes therein. Quite frankly, it is on the edge of the actual downtown core.
QuoteAgain, the convention center at the shipyards (you keep saying metropolitan park but the entrance into a convention complex appears closer in to the CBD than that), and pedestrian vibrancy in the CBD are not mutually exclusive.
Take a look at this plan. The entrance (#2) aligns with Franklin Street. You can see the stadium parking lot across the street. The building turns its back to downtown (notice location of truck docks #3) and Gator Bowl Boulevard.
(https://snag.gy/246ASk.jpg)
QuoteWe're already on our way there with what's happening in the CBD now, and some other uses for the riverfront Courthouse property will be identified.
We're where we were in 2006. A slew of highly conceptual proposals coming on line with an upcoming recession following to kill most of the ones that don't break ground within the next year or so.
QuoteMetro Park is something altogether different than the Shipyards, isn't it? The press release on Khan's plans say Convention Center at the Shipyards, no?
See graphics above. Metro Park was once a part of the shipyards complex that originally lined Bay Street. However, technically it's just east of what we call the shipyards today and roughly right across the street from the stadium and its adjacent parking lots.
Don't have time to parse your parsing:), but your tone of "if it can't be at the courthouse site and will instead be at the Shipyards, leave it at Prime Osborn instead," is just an over-reaction in my opinion. As for questioning a new convention center as a downtown priority, irrespective of whether it's at the Shipyards or Courthouse, well I completely agree. I was annoyed by the RFP. Downtown is dull and does not sell well at all to outsiders, but that's changing. Let Downtown evolve a bit more and become a credible enticement to outsiders, and then let's take the convention center idea a bit more seriously. But hey, if Shad Khan sees something I'm not seeing, or if he plans to build a center and all these other elements of his 2.5BN dollar vision all at the same time, well then now could be the time. But yes, I've seen the splashy plans from Iguana before, and I've learned to take them with a grain of salt. Again, my point is that the Courthouse site could be a clustered low-to-mid-rise mixed-use community on the waterfront, and I'd be very happy with that as well.
Sidebar: No more high-rises/towers on the waterfront, please.
If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?
Jaxnyc79, you don't have to parse but at least understand that the Khan's convention center location is one mile east of what most historically associate as being downtown, not 1/4 mile as mentioned in an earlier post.
I wouldn't classify my opinion as an overreaction. It's more of a realization that the environment people are being sold on won't materialize if we don't change and begin implementing investments in a coordinated manner to achieve a long time vision.
Also, yes I feel that if we're going to seriously consider a convention center at TIAA Bank Field, I'd question if it's more warranted than renovating and expanding the Prime Osborn. Of course my opinion can change if Khan is funding it himself to increase the value of his surrounding investments. However, we all know COJ will be asked to subsidize that vision to the tune of millions. If we're tossing public money into it, then the ROI should consider the core point of the decade plus talk of the Prime Osborn being a bad location.
Quote from: billy on August 02, 2018, 03:43:47 PM
If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?
Another great question. Seems like a big waste of money to tear these buildings down without a plan. Save the demo money and figure this convention center thing out first. Assuming a convention center goes elsewhere, RFP the property and see what materializes. Neither of those structures are in danger of falling down and there may be proposals that consider various forms of reuse or things we're not currently imagining.
thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.
I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).
Quote from: billy on August 02, 2018, 03:43:47 PM
If the convention center location shifts,
Why not retain and repurpose city hall annex and courthouse?
Could do that - save the 8.5 million in funds for demolition and see if anyone has plans for the space.
QuoteThis. Having traveled to many meetings (and seen how many of them are planned), the distance thing isn't a big deal. The proliferation of Uber has made this an afterthought. I prefer a walkable city but it's nothing more than a bonus these days.
When looking at destinations, meeting planners generally look at accessibility, value, and public perception of the city. All meetings involve varying degrees of "sales" to get people to attend and attendees consider all three when deciding whether to go.
^Per the 2017 DIA Study, these are the reasons that meeting planners aren't choosing Jacksonville:
QuoteSAG conducted interviews and surveys with more than 40 meeting planners about Jacksonville's viability as a convention destination. More than 80 percent of those interviewed said that Jacksonville was "not on the radar" as a large meeting or convention destination.
Much of that was based on the perception that Jacksonville lacks key criteria sought by convention planners.
The report cited "walkability, lack of sufficient hotel package, airlift, the need to 'clean up' downtown, safety and the overall lack of 'things to do' " as challenges. Also cited was a "lack of restaurants, attractions and retail."
Those surveyed indicated that Jacksonville should maximize the St. Johns River to create an experience unique to the city.
Source: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/a-new-jacksonville-convention-center-is-downtown-ready
Whether it's on the Courthouse site, or in the Sports Complex, or at the Prime Osborne, or wherever, in order to be successful, any convention center that we build in Jacksonville has to have 1) a close proximity to amenities, and 2) a unique value proposition to make it stand out from the 28 other convention centers in Florida and 255 nationwide.
To me, if we can't build a convention center that's closely linked to nightlife & entertainment and that brings something to the table unique from the rest of the competition, it's not even worth it to start.
There's no gun to our head.
If - and this is a big, unfounded, completely unknown if - the city makes the decision to get behind the Cordish development and go all-in on the sports complex as our "downtown" entertainment district, I disagree with the contention that it's an easy walk from the Courthouse site to the entertainment district. .8 miles is a ten block, 16-18 minute walk at a leisurely pace, in Florida heat, in business casual and/or heels. I think you'd need some kind of a way to quickly and conveniently move conventioneers back and forth between the convention center and the sports complex.
I also think 10 times out of 10, unless Khan is dumping so much of his own money into a Shipyards convention center that we can't possibly say no, having the convention center at the Courthouse site and potentially losing some entertainment to the stadium complex is far preferable to having a convention center at the stadium complex and hoping that attendees make their way into the CBD. If you build at the Shipyards, the convention center becomes an island unto itself and the vast majority of attendees never travel further west than the Shipyards. It could be really successful, but all the positive externalities on the downtown core would likely be lost.
Smartest play right now though is to do nothing, including demo, while we figure the rest of our shit out first.
We could gain so much more clarity on how to best proceed with a convention center if we had clarity on a dozen other projects and how they all fit together.
- The Landing's future (will it remain entertainment & nightlife, or be bulldozed into nothing?)
- JTA's future Skyway (how will we move people around downtown once a convention center is built?)
- Lot J (will Cordish's Jacksonville Live! entertainment hub be built, or turn into just another render that gets refreshed every 2 years)
- The USS Adams (will it actually be turned into a floating museum in the vicinity of the Courthouse site)
- Berkman 2 (will the massive hotel and entertainment complex materialize? Are Dave and Buster REALLY on steroids?)
- Shipyards remediation (how much f*cking money would it even take to make the Shipyards development-ready? We still don't know)
- JEA relocation (is JEA propping up downtown with a four-block mixed use development, or taking their talents to Lot J?)
- The Doro District (what's the status of the entertainment district being planned for the old Doro Fixtures buildings?)
- Lori Boyer's Riverwalk plans (what's planned for the rest of the interactive & entertainment nodes? where will the funding come from?)
- The Hart Bridge Ramp removal (when are they coming down? How are they coming down? What portions are coming down?)
- All the new hotel projects (will Laura Street and the surrounding blocks fully develop into a restaurant and rooftop-bar laden hotel district as currently planned?)
Everything seems to be happening in a vacuum.
Also, I spent the afternoon at City Hall.
Just listening to people talk, it's kind of scary how quickly the narrative has changed in the last 24 hours to, "it's going to be hard for anyone to beat Khan."
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 04:07:14 PM
thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.
I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).
Looking at the Iguana rendering, the entrance to the Convention Center is opposite the eastern end of the existing retention pond, that will have a parking garage built over it, east of WTLV. This is about two-tenths to a quarter mile east of Intuition. This is based on the drawing provided, and what we are discussing, and not a different, hypothetical, CC opposite Intuition. If I remember correctly, the Hart Ramp south of Intuition will remain, and a loop ramp added to A.P.Randolph/Gator Bowl Blvd., to connect west to Duval/Monroe/Adams/Forsyth (either vehicular or pedestrian/bike).
I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal. I go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed. In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex. Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town. Let's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows. So if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great. But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing. The Landing? The Elbow? Frankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district. There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize. So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.
I'm all for a revitalized CBD, but that might be office high-rises with low vacancy rates - that would still be vitality but likely pretty dull at night. So yeah, what corridor in Downtown Jax is being targeted as the entertainment/party PULSE of downtown. If it's the stretch of buildings along Bay Street across from Berkman, that's really not that far at all from a site at the Shipyards.
Brings me back to my original point that the convention center RFP was a waste of DIA time and resources.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 02, 2018, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 04:07:14 PM
thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.
I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).
Looking at the Iguana rendering, the entrance to the Convention Center is opposite the eastern end of the existing retention pond, that will have a parking garage built over it, east of WTLV. This is about two-tenths to a quarter mile east of Intuition. This is based on the drawing provided, and what we are discussing, and not a different, hypothetical, CC opposite Intuition. If I remember correctly, the Hart Ramp south of Intuition will remain, and a loop ramp added to A.P.Randolph/Gator Bowl Blvd., to connect west to Duval/Monroe/Adams/Forsyth (either vehicular or pedestrian/bike).
Hmm, 0.4 to 0.65. Of course, that's the entrance into the Complex from the Parking Garage, who's to say there won't be another entrance into the complex further west? Or perhaps this 500,000 square foot complex will only have one entrance from Bay Street, which is 0.25 miles further east than Intuition Ale's point on Bay, which proves the point that the Convention Center must be at the Courthouse site or all Downtown's future is shot. Got it. Actually, it's an artist's rendering - so the whole conversation is largely hypothetical.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 04:36:49 PM
I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal.
Distance and location is a big deal if creating pedestrian level synergy and energy in downtown is a major goal of the project. In the past it was. If this isn't a core aspect of the investment, then distance doesn't matter. Might as well build it at the beach.
QuoteI go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed. In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex. Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town.
I go to a variety as well. I and others I know do get out an explore. Consistently, the cities that are walkable and lively tend to be the most desired locations.
QuoteLet's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows.
Correct and incorrect. Correct that it can be a disappointment. Incorrect or not acknowledgement for how you change that disappointment is to strategically place complementing land uses in a setting that stimulates synergy to grow foot traffic and generate additional business opportunity. For example, if we want the Elbow, Hyatt and Landing to be better, placing a convention center within walking distance of these existing urban investments has the merit of providing them with more exposure and foot traffic. That combination can grow into an environment that isn't a massive disappointment (aka like the Gaslamp in San Diego).
QuoteSo if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great. But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing. The Landing? The Elbow?
The Elbow is downtown's current entertainment district. The Landing is a place that could be a lot more than it currently is. Strategic public investments within walking distance of them are about the biggest boost we can do with their future from a public investment standpoint. On the other hand, Cordish is simply a Landing 2.0. We can build it but what it really does is transfer that activity to the stadium. With that said, I don't believe people travel to cities or select convention sites based on if they have Cordish entertainment centers. There's nothing unique about them.
QuoteFrankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district. There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize. So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.
I've been measuring this one for over a decade now. When I speak about the need of nearby restaurants, hotels, entertainment, etc., I envision the Landing, Elbow, Hyatt, Trio, Hotel Indigo, Florida Theater, riverwalk, TU performing arts center, etc. being those things, with the added foot traffic helping consume the vacant spaces separating them.
Lamping spoke with reporters this afternoon:
- $425 to $450 million price tag
- Iguana would ask for a public contribution from the city that would make sense for all parties involved
- Lamping estimated a 2021 start date, with Lot J coming first, then Hart ramp removal
- Four Seasons being planned for stadium district, but not for convention hotel
- Actively pursuing JEA for Lot J
Series of events:
1. DIA evaluates Courthouse site bids
2. Winner is chosen
3. Development agreement is never worked out. Developer wants too much city contribution.
4. Meanwhile lot J is built and ramps come down
5. Khan presents his offer, which city cannot refuse.
That is the political way it gets done, not the preffered logical way.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 05:01:26 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 04:36:49 PM
I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal.
Distance and location is a big deal if creating pedestrian level synergy and energy in downtown is a major goal of the project. In the past it was. If this isn't a core aspect of the investment, then distance doesn't matter. Might as well build it at the beach.
QuoteI go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed. In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex. Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town.
I go to a variety as well. I and others I know do get out an explore. Consistently, the cities that are walkable and lively tend to be the most desired locations.
QuoteLet's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows.
Correct and incorrect. Correct that it can be a disappointment. Incorrect or not acknowledgement for how you change that disappointment is to strategically place complementing land uses in a setting that stimulates synergy to grow foot traffic and generate additional business opportunity. For example, if we want the Elbow, Hyatt and Landing to be better, placing a convention center within walking distance of these existing urban investments has the merit of providing them with more exposure and foot traffic. That combination can grow into an environment that isn't a massive disappointment (aka like the Gaslamp in San Diego).
QuoteSo if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great. But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing. The Landing? The Elbow?
The Elbow is downtown's current entertainment district. The Landing is a place that could be a lot more than it currently is. Strategic public investments within walking distance of them are about the biggest boost we can do with their future from a public investment standpoint. On the other hand, Cordish is simply a Landing 2.0. We can build it but what it really does is transfer that activity to the stadium. With that said, I don't believe people travel to cities or select convention sites based on if they have Cordish entertainment centers. There's nothing unique about them.
QuoteFrankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district. There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize. So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.
I've been measuring this one for over a decade now. When I speak about the need of nearby restaurants, hotels, entertainment, etc., I envision the Landing, Elbow, Hyatt, Trio, Hotel Indigo, Florida Theater, riverwalk, TU performing arts center, etc. being those things, with the added foot traffic helping consume the vacant spaces separating them.
We have different definitions of entertainment district. In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc. Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers. When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district. That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.
^Speaking of which, it's worth pointing out that Khan's team (DeBartolo, Rimrock Devin) both made political contributions to Curry earlier this summer.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
We have different definitions of entertainment district. In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc. Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers. When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district. That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.
Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.
I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.
What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2018, 05:15:38 PM
^Speaking of which, it's worth pointing out that Khan's team (DeBartolo, Rimrock Devin) both made political contributions to Curry earlier this summer.
It's also worth pointing out that most of their developments are suburban......like Sleiman's ;-)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
We have different definitions of entertainment district. In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc. Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers. When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district. That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.
Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.
I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.
What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.
I'd add that one major reason to build a convention center is to bring more foot traffic and entertainment dollars to the area you want it - in this case, the downtown core. If it can't do that effectively - and being separated by a mile of deadspace does greatly reduce the impact it'll have on the core - there's much less reason to spend the money at all.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 05:31:03 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 02, 2018, 05:13:55 PM
We have different definitions of entertainment district. In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc. Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers. When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district. That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.
Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.
I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.
What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.
I appreciate what you're saying. You're right, the city has wasted tons of money on "game-changers." All the developments you cited, they fail in streetscape activation. That's why a stroll through much of downtown Jax still sucks in my opinion. It really should be fairly simple. Take downtown buildings, whether 50 stories or 1-story, abut them against the sidewalk, open their ground floors up to the streetscape with windows and lights, and cluster them along corridors with as little deadspace from walls and garages as possible, and it is my belief downtown will make the biggest strides it's ever seen, even without game-changing projects and tons of incentives. The core can be great even without some big box convention center right smack dab in the middle of it. I'm not arguing against the Convention Center being at the Courthouse site, once again,
I'm just making the point that I don't see a ton of difference between it being there and being at the Shipyards. If the Cordish projects have a ton of streetscape activation along with a bunch of new entertainment and restaurant venues, well then I'm all for that being a Downtown Jax entertainment hub. I mean, Tacachale is saying we need the convention center for foot traffic downtown, well between the Arena, Stadium, Baseball stadium, Daily's Place, the stadium complex brings in tons of people all the time. Those people "COULD BE" foot traffic for that part of downtown, if they had stuff to walk to before and after taking in their shows/events/games. So since we already have venues to bring thousands of people into one general area in downtown on a regular basis, let's turn those "assemblies" into foot traffic as well. Not sure why you guys are trying to pit stadium complex against the CBD. Both have tons of fundamental opportunity for foot traffic. Frankly, the large groups of potential foot traffic flooding into the stadium complex are much more ready to party than the large groups of office workers who tend to assemble closer to the current site of the City Hall Annex and Former Courthouse.
The whole point about generating foot traffic is to have more people walking past the struggling, underutilized and vacant storefronts, thus creating market rate opportunities and conditions for their use. That opportunity goes away when you use public money to siphon the little foot traffic in that particular area to an isolated disneyfied competitive location a mile east. This opportunity was one of the major reasons of considering the relocation of the convention center in the first place. I believe this is the main problem with distance. All the stuff you complain about downtown only struggles more when you use public money to help kill it as opposed to helping improve it.
Speaking of public handouts, if we're subsidizing Lot J, we're basically giving incentives to relocate JEA and the Landing from the downtown core. How does that help with it's renaissance?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2018, 09:19:44 PM
The whole point about generating foot traffic is to have more people walking past the struggling, underutilized and vacant storefronts, thus creating market rate opportunities and conditions for their use. That opportunity goes away when you use public money to siphon the little foot traffic in that particular area to an isolated disneyfied competitive location a mile east. This opportunity was one of the major reasons of considering the relocation of the convention center in the first place. I believe this is the main problem with distance. All the stuff you complain about downtown only struggles more when you use public money to help kill it as opposed to helping improve it.
Speaking of public handouts, if we're subsidizing Lot J, we're basically giving incentives to relocate JEA and the Landing from the downtown core. How does that help with it's renaissance?
How many people visit the Stadium Complex each year? It would be nice to convert those visits into foot traffic in one way or another. They're going to visit the Stadium area anyway, and the Stadium Complex is part of downtown. Yes, the CBD needs attention, and again, if the Courthouse site becomes more residences, that will help give it attention. But still, Stadium Complex has a gathering of bodies needing conversion to foot traffic.
The point of desiring foot traffic in the Northbank is to generate market rate economic use for the underutilized buildings, vacant storefronts and struggling businesses. There's nothing but parking lots around the stadium so the same need does not exist. Regardless of what happens at the stadium district, that need is still going to be there for the walkable urban core. You just make it harder to revitalize it when you spend your limited amount of public funding dedicated to downtown development on projects that don't accomplish (and possibly compete against) that core point.
#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:
#InShadWeTrust.
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 03, 2018, 12:22:53 AM
#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:
#InShadWeTrust.
I was starting to worry that you were dead or something, RG. Hadn't seen you in ages.
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 03, 2018, 12:22:53 AM
#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:
#InShadWeTrust.
I trust that Shad will develop his own node....it just appears it will be at the expense of the Northbank core. However, that's not his problem. It's COJ's to find a way to make sure everything is complimentary. Hopefully, it won't include publicy financing JEA to relocate 800 employees out of the walkable heart of the city.
I'm just going to state the obvious - Lake and JaxNYC both go to a lot of conventions, but I'm pretty confident they're not going to the same conventions. Tomato / Tomatoe
I don't go to many, and what I usually go to are trade shows. Sometimes I hang out in the city for an extra day or two, often times I turn and burn. My personal deciding factor on whether or not to go is: a.) what equipment am I looking to upgrade, b.) who's going to be there, c.) who's paying for it. Where it's located only comes into play due to the cost to get there. I go to Atlanta a lot!
Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.
We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:
1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.
2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).
Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.
When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.
We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:
1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.
2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).
Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.
When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.
In my opinion, you're staking too much of downtown's fortunes on a placement difference that to me isn't all that meaningful for most conventioneers.
I'm not sure whether you're personally invested in the Elbow, but whether an entertainment hub is in that area, or in the Doro District, or even in LaVilla (wasn't there a recent piece on this site comparing Beale Street in Memphis with possibilities for LaVilla), I don't think it will matter much to conventioneers...
The city just needs to have some sort of entertainment hub within a reasonable distance of the convention center complex, and Doro versus Elbow are just not that far apart to matter, ultimately. I mean, doesn't the Elbow start at Liberty and Bay? I mean, why are we even arguing, that is simply not that far from the Shipyards Complex plans. Liberty Street to Georgia Street is 0.6 miles along Bay. Not a big deal.
If you want old buildings rehabbed in the core, well it appears some of that is happening already, and if you want more of it happening, well keep infusing downtown with residential development, continue creating reasons for the region's residents (not just outsiders through conventions) to
linger downtown like Boyer's activation initiative, opening up more businesses to the streetscape, turning Hemming Park into a Munich-Style Outdoor Beer Garden Thursdays-Sundays (sorry to slip that in, just a personal fantasy of mine), and re-branding downtown Jax as the place to be for its most energized and innovative denizens, and I believe the culmination of all these efforts will drive the vitality among older buildings in the core that you seek.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 08:37:26 AM
Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.
We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:
1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.
2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).
Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.
When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.
Also Khan's plan is very similar to the La Villa vision of the Prime Osbourne. "Nothing exists but if you give me a convention center on developable land isolated from all existing industries that typically accompany a convention center (hotels, resturants, nightlife), I'll build all that for you." I trust Shad too, but his renderings of Daily's Place he originally presented and what we got, should make anyone question his current design plans whose purpose are just to dazzle the masses. And while we are already probably going to have city money go to a convention center in any new location, Shad will most likely want MORE city money to help his vision surrounding it. Why pay even more when we already have existing facilities in the Courthouse site? They city would be paying to compete with itself.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on August 03, 2018, 12:22:53 AM
#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:
#InShadWeTrust.
I trust that Shad will develop his own node....it just appears it will be at the expense of the Northbank core. However, that's not his problem. It's COJ's to find a way to make sure everything is complimentary. Hopefully, it won't include publicy financing JEA to relocate 800 employees out of the walkable heart of the city.
Ran into a friend from JEA this morning. Can confirm that, immediately after announcing Lot J, the Jaguars reached out to JEA to sell them on Lot J, rather than JEA reaching out to the Jaguars. These conversations led JEA to expand its search beyond the site proposed in the land swap. General vibe at JEA is that everyone hates the idea of moving into shared space at Bank of America or One Enterprise, most people like what little they know about the four-block plan, most people are apathetic/fine about the land swap, and that the Lot J plan is the most polarizing, with some people absolutely loving it, and some people hating it. It also sounds like, even if Lot J were to happen, JEA might need to maintain a small customer-facing presence in the CBD.
It's a good point about how, if they did choose Lot J, we really would be subsidizing the move of 800 employees out of the CBD, wiping out all those gains from Vystar (which we're likely subsidizing in part as well through parking rebates).
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 09:53:10 AM
In my opinion, you're staking too much of downtown's fortunes on a placement difference that to me isn't all that meaningful for most conventioneers.
Bingo! Now we're getting somewhere. I'm exactly talking about strategic investments of publicly backed projects to maximize downtown revitalization. Not what an average conventioneer is seeking (the average conventioneer could care less about DT Jax). We already know what the average conventioneer spends money on. Jax needs to decide where it would like that money spent and acknowledge the pros and cons of that decision. If it's at the sports district, then it's time to backtrack and reconfigure the talk that's been sold to the public for the last 40 years.
QuoteI'm not sure whether you're personally invested in the Elbow, but whether an entertainment hub is in that area, or in the Doro District, or even in LaVilla (wasn't there a recent piece on this site comparing Beale Street in Memphis with possibilities for LaVilla), I don't think it will matter much to conventioneers...
The LaVilla piece used Beale Street as an example to show you can revitalize around an area's unique history, even if it has been largely destroyed by urban renewal. It wasn't intended to say LaVilla should be an entertainment district. Authentic entertainment districts tend to evolve on their own. The Elbow is sort of doing that, a decade after COJ spent money doing the Bay Street Town Center project in anticipation for Super Bowl XXXIX. Clustering complimenting development simply makes things work at a market rate level.
QuoteThe city just needs to have some sort of entertainment hub within a reasonable distance of the convention center complex, and Doro versus Elbow are just not that far apart to matter, ultimately. I mean, doesn't the Elbow start at Liberty and Bay? I mean, why are we even arguing, that is simply not that far from the Shipyards Complex plans. Liberty Street to Georgia Street is 0.6 miles along Bay. Not a big deal.
If ultimately means 30-50 years from now. Things can happen much faster when clustered within a compact setting.
QuoteIf you want old buildings rehabbed in the core, well it appears some of that is happening already, and if you want more of it happening, well keep infusing downtown with residential development, continue creating reasons for the region's residents (not just outsiders through conventions) to linger downtown like Boyer's activation initiative, opening up more businesses to the streetscape, turning Hemming Park into a Munich-Style Outdoor Beer Garden Thursdays-Sundays (sorry to slip that in, just a personal fantasy of mine), and re-branding downtown Jax as the place to be for its most energized and innovative denizens, and I believe the culmination of all these efforts will drive the vitality among older buildings in the core that you seek.
If Jax wants its downtown core revitalized, rehabbing it (which includes old vacant buildings) with mixed uses is essential. So reinforce want is finally starting to jumpstart things into the next level. Also, work with your market. Hotels, restaurants, bars and lofts projects are finally materializing within many of these old buildings. These are the support uses needed to assist in making an area around a convention center attractive. So there is a strong argument in strategically placing a center within walking distance of this activity, as opposed to subsidizing it elsewhere along with supportive development that directly competes with what's currently starting to take place. I know it keeps getting ignored or downplayed since Khan blew in to town, but this was the whole point of the consideration of moving the thing from the Prime Osborn in the first place.
I agree with everything you're saying Ennis, but sadly, I think the biggest x-factor that's going to play into all of this, which is the last factor that should play into it, is fear of losing the Jags.
Most of the decision makers probably agree deep down that the best thing to do for downtown revitalization is to build in the urban core, but the question is, how high is the mayor and city council willing to jump if Lamping starts to (or continues to) insinuate that a convention center co-developed between the city and Jags, and operated by Bold Events, is key to the franchise's long-term stability in Jacksonville.
The sheer timing of the Jags' unsolicited convention center proposal almost comes across as a threat.
Throw in the fact that the Jags lease runs up in 2029, Khan may own Wembley by the end of the year, and there's a fighting chance that the city's on an endorphin high from a Jags SuperBowl appearance by the time a convention center decision needs to be made, I'm not entirely sure I trust in a rational decision being made.
Unless the rational decision is keeping the Jags happy is more important than doing what's best for downtown.
Who knows.
It's going to be a fascinating thing to watch play out.
What are the boundaries of the so-called "urban core"? Just curious. I see the term thrown around a lot and have never been sure what it entails.
If they want to go to London, they will regardless of the peanuts being tossed in Jax around TIAA Bank Field. Nothing we can do here can financially compete with London. But yes, in this town, I can see the typical NFL franchise card being pulled and it being successful in shifting things to that area at the expense of other areas and last public investments. Sadly, I do believe that if things play out that way, downtown will never be as successful as most (including jaxnyc79) dream about. But it is, what it is.
With that said, I believe time and the economy will have more impact. Much of the stuff being tossed around these days are conceptual pipe dreams that are years away from any type of reality. Many of us here in this forum saw this play out over a decade ago. There's even an article dedicated to the pipe dream projects that died with the economy and mayoral term limits:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-results-of-the-boom-dead-projects
If I had to guess, whatever isn't underway (like under construction) within the next year or two probably won't materialize. All of these convention center proposals and the Shipyards fall into that category. Also I'm not sold that JEA will end up at Lot J. Such a move would be a public and political firestorm in conservative Jax if it involves public incentives to make it feasible (and I can't imagine the Jag's doing Lot J without public money).
Quote from: Adam White on August 03, 2018, 11:35:41 AM
What are the boundaries of the so-called "urban core"? Just curious. I see the term thrown around a lot and have never been sure what it entails.
I'd describe the actual urban core as the pre-consolidated city. That would include everything from Riverside/Avondale and San Marco up to Panama Park and west to Lackawanna and Commonwealth. This is an area that was largely developed with a gridded street network and designed to be multimodal and mixed use prior to WWII. From a connectivity standpoint, this is the core area of where high frequency transit should be set up and heavily coordinated with supportive land use to encourage TOD in various neighborhoods around transit stops.
This is a different definition from the CBD, Central Business District or downtown. The historical, walkable setting that is downtown and that most non-planner types consider it to be is the Northbank roughly bounded by the river, Liberty Street/Hogans Creek, State/Union and probably Broad Street. However, as DT declined for numbers sake, the boundaries have been expanded to State/Union (north), I-95 (west/south) and the river/JEA site (east).
Nevertheless, regardless of how we technically define it, the human scaled portion is pretty much what it has always been (although significantly hurt by countless demolitions since Haydon Burns' DT revitalization effort back in the 1950s). If the desire to change the area's image into one featuring buildings filled with mixed uses, density, etc. within a walkable setting, we won't be able to ignore the 186-year-old elephant in the room.
OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?
We just aren't on the same page, and that's fine. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center. I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.
And by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars." No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself. This is all conjecture.
Dave Cawton of the Daily Record on Khan's vision for the convention center & Lot J.
Emphasis is mine, but goes to show how Khan's vision for "improving downtown" doesn't at all align with what we're talking about in this thread.
QuoteKhan wants to "Disney-fy" the stadium complex: stay, dine, go to a concert and watch a game without having to go anywhere else. Not saying that's bad or not feasable, but that's his vision.
Also, just an observation, but kind of odd how antiseptic the reporting is here in Jacksonville. All three major print outlets - TU, Daily Record, Business Journal - reported on Khan's release of the Shipyards convention center renders, and nobody is talking about potential political gamesmanship, or the failure of any of the other renders to materialize over the years, or the appropriateness of submitting an unsolicited bid 24-hours after the other RFP closed, or whether one location makes more sense than the other.
Just basic, vanilla coverage.
Ditto when JEA pivoted and broadened their search for a new headquarters.
Atkins presented a really compelling plan in conjunction with JEA, which to me is a huge story, but every headline was trumpeting the possibility of JEA moving to Lot J.
It's just kind of odd how little hard-hitting commentary you see in the local media about these things, particularly when they involve Shad Khan/The Jags.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?
I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.
QuoteWe just aren't on the same page, and that's fine. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center. I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.
No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible. :)
I bolded one sentence above for an example. I never said a CC alone would make a vibrant, world-class anything. I spoke about previous investments and how clustering complimenting uses within a compact pedestrian scale synergy is what works and builds vibrant places. You would treat the placement of a CC the same way you'd treat the design of the Landing, placement of a museum or enhancement of a park. The sum of all parts is what creates the lively interactive space.
QuoteAnd by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars." No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself. This is all conjecture.
There's no conjecture of what type of development strategies work and don't work. We have a globe worth of good and bad examples to pull from.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 03, 2018, 01:57:43 PM
Dave Cawton of the Daily Record on Khan's vision for the convention center & Lot J.
Emphasis is mine, but goes to show how Khan's vision for "improving downtown" doesn't at all align with what we're talking about in this thread.
It's pretty clear that Khan and the Jag's vision is about themselves and not anything else. It's just presented as Jax will benefit if they are successful.
My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana. You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so. A more marketable convention center can happen at the Courthouse site and at the Shipyards.
I don't think a big box behemoth of a center at the courthouse site is any sort of linchpin for the CBD.
Separately, if Iguana wants to build an entertainment complex near the stadium, I have no issue with that. I think it's reasonable to want to convert the massive assemblies in and around the stadium complex into foot traffic before and after shows. Just as I want all of downtown to give its gatherers a reason to linger, the stadium complex should seek to do the same.
Having said that, my first reaction to Iguana going after JEA as a tenant is that Iguana is being quite lazy and pathetic in making that its target. I mean, for a development that's supposedly this splashy and next-gen, why can't you recruit a new company to Jacksonville, and no offense, but why not a sexier tenant than the municipal utility. I mean, SS&C has a growing presence in Jacksonville and they're becoming a powerhouse of a FinTech organization - go after them. Go after emerging AI or Blockchain Firms.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?
I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.
QuoteWe just aren't on the same page, and that's fine. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center. I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.
No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible. :)
Wow, that was an arrogant statement. By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible. Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.
I bolded one sentence above for an example. I never said a CC alone would make a vibrant, world-class anything. I spoke about previous investments and how clustering complimenting uses within a compact pedestrian scale synergy is what works and builds vibrant places. You would treat the placement of a CC the same way you'd treat the design of the Landing, placement of a museum or enhancement of a park. The sum of all parts is what creates the lively interactive space.
QuoteAnd by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars." No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself. This is all conjecture.
There's no conjecture of what type of development strategies work and don't work. We have a globe worth of good and bad examples to pull from.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:17:29 PM
My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana.
I don't believe I ever stated this.
QuoteYou want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so. A more marketable convention center can happen at the Courthouse site and at the Shipyards.
A more marketable downtown is more than a CC. It's more residents, restaurants, bars, businesses, hotels, a better Landing, a better Elbow, etc. Where we place public investments can either help, not help as much or not help at all in the advancement of the end goal.
QuoteI don't think a big box behemoth of a center at the courthouse site is any sort of linchpin for the CBD.
Me neither. I believe clustering complimenting uses within a compact setting is the linchpin as proven with every vibrant urban district in the country.
QuoteSeparately, if Iguana wants to build an entertainment complex near the stadium, I have no issue with that. I think it's reasonable to want to convert the massive assemblies in and around the stadium complex into foot traffic before and after shows. Just as I want all of downtown to give its gatherers a reason to linger, the stadium complex should seek to do the same.
I don't have a problem with Iguana investing around the stadium. I'd love those parking lots to be developed. As a taxpayer, historian and professional planner, I do have trouble with a plan that calls for tax money to develop things that compete directly with what we've (Jax's taxpayers) have been sold and continue to subsidize.
QuoteHaving said that, my first reaction to Iguana going after JEA as a tenant is that Iguana is being quite lazy and pathetic in making that its target. I mean, for a development that's supposedly this splashy and next-gen, why can't you recruit a new company to Jacksonville, and no offense, but why not a sexier tenant than the municipal utility. I mean, SS&C has a growing presence in Jacksonville and they're becoming a powerhouse of a FinTech organization - go after them. Go after emerging AI or Blockchain Firms.
This is the problem I have with what has been recently materializing. Iguana seems to be only concerned about their own bottom line. Those pretty city slicker renderings are nothing more than fluff to sell a bunch of urban development starved country farmers on funneling public resources that way. None of these renderings match the bland box that JEA put up the other day and under no circumstances can any claim that JEA next to the stadium does more than downtown than them staying right where they're at, one block from Hemming. Moving 800 to 1,000 existing employees from the heart of DT to the stadium only helps Iguana. How does that improve downtown or beneficial to the taxpayers who will be asked to subsidize such a move?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?
I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.
QuoteWe just aren't on the same page, and that's fine. We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out. Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center. I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.
No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible. :)
Wow, that was an arrogant statement. By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible. Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.
It's only arrogant when you take it that way, which you're constantly putting in words and interpretations I've never stated.
If doesn't matter who believes or doesn't believe whatever position in that statement. The point is we're not in agreement at the foundational level. Because of that, we're simply not going to see eye to eye on the issue.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 03, 2018, 03:38:23 PMMoving 800 to 1,000 existing employees from the heart of DT to the stadium only helps Iguana. How does that improve downtown or beneficial to the taxpayers who will be asked to subsidize such a move?
There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.
From the JBJ:
Quote[One JEA] board member pushed back against the downtown-centric approach.
"I would hope we're looking out for JEA first," board member Husein Cumber said, adding that the ability to contribute to downtown's revitalization would be great, but that it shouldn't be the deciding factor. He said employees might prefer being part of an exciting mixed-use project, such as Lot J, which sits just outside of the urban core."
Interesting indeed. Downtown and the Atkins alternative are also mixed-use. But that quote does make it seem like some others do understand the economic loss of moving +800 workers out of the downtown core and negativity associated with that.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself. This is all conjecture.
I actually believe Lake has it on lock. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would put him in charge with complete confidence and I doubt I'm alone.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Wow, that was an arrogant statement. By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible. Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.
Lake might be an arrogant SOB, but trust me his comments have been far tamer than what he could say or does say in other situations lol. And it's not HIS bible, he's prescribing to a set of principles that did not originate from him whatsoever (not that he was even necessarily comparing his position to Biblical truths in any case)
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:17:29 PM
My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana. You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so.
Having said all of that, I agree with you on a number of things. I'm pretty torn about the overall idea myself. I agree with Lake that clustering is the key to lighting the kindling and a CC plus complementing uses really would serve downtown much better today by being literally adjacent to the areas of focus/priority on the northbank. Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all. ;)
Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 03, 2018, 03:53:56 PM
There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.
Where's Josh? Josh, how do you feel about this?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 04, 2018, 12:41:40 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 01:36:43 PM
No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself. This is all conjecture.
I actually believe Lake has it on lock. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would put him in charge with complete confidence and I doubt I'm alone.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Wow, that was an arrogant statement. By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible. Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.
Lake might be an arrogant SOB, but trust me his comments have been far tamer than what he could say or does say in other situations lol. And it's not HIS bible, he's prescribing to a set of principles that did not originate from him whatsoever (not that he was even necessarily comparing his position to Biblical truths in any case)
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 03, 2018, 03:17:29 PM
My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana. You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so.
Having said all of that, I agree with you on a number of things. I'm pretty torn about the overall idea myself. I agree with Lake that clustering is the key to lighting the kindling and a CC plus complementing uses really would serve downtown much better today by being literally adjacent to the areas of focus/priority on the northbank. Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all. ;)
Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 03, 2018, 03:53:56 PM
There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.
Where's Josh? Josh, how do you feel about this?
Glad you believe Lake has it on lock and is all-knowing, and his position on every detail of downtown development is Bible, but I don't. And not sure what you mean by put him in charge, but even if Lake were to run for mayor or get appointed as Downtown Czar, he should still be challenged by a Board or Committee, as any good governance framework should require. So sorry, no unilateral dictators going around asserting their positions as "Bible" in American democracy, be it on downtown or anything else. Lake has a lot of great insights, but resorting to the ridiculous Bible comment on a relatively tame position that the Courthouse site isn't all that important versus the Shipyards one, was unnecessarily pompous. As I've mentioned in the past, I'm not convinced now is the time to focus on a Convention Center. Make downtown great again and appealing to both locals and outsiders for a multitude of reasons, and then monetize its revival with a Convention Center.
Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study ;).
I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.
However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study ;).
I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.
However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!
You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me. I've been a staunch supporter of mixed and clustered uses all throughout downtown, for walkability, and for streetscape activation, ever since I started following the site. I believe in those principles not just in "old downtown" or "stadium complex downtown," but frankly all throughout the urban core of Duval County, and I think a new zoning code should reflect prioritization or at least equality for pedestrians versus motorists. So sounds like there are shared objectives here.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 04, 2018, 12:41:40 AM
Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all. ;)
Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.
Here's my problem with this. Our structure of government isn't set up to pursue a 40 year dream. Four years from now, it's more likely we'll have another mayor with another set of priorities that moves away from everything Curry's administration is pushing for. Only four years ago, we had Brown and if he would have been reelected, we'd likely given money to Sleiman and the Landing's redevelopment would already be underway.
Also, if we look back into history, this same sentiment is what got us to subsidize the Landing in the 1980s, tricking Rouse on sweet nothings about what DT Jax would be like in the future. What we sold Rouse did not happen. Throw in the reality of economic recession cycles with our changes in government priorities, it's likely 90% of what's being sold in those pretty little renderings never happen.
With that said, we can stop giving Khan these guys the benefit of the doubt in pursuing "splashier" non-local companies. That's a pipe dream. No matter what they say and show in pictures, the market is the market and people like him didn't become billionaires by going against it. Logically, this means they'll pursue whatever makes their numbers and ROI work best.....even if it means poaching existing businesses and future development opportunities from the core CBD. At this point, we don't even need to guess. The proof is in the pudding with Vystar, JEA, Landing/Lot J and the convention center RFP fiasco. So we as a community should be prepared to face and understand what the pros and cons of subsidizing each development concept can possibly bring. I know it's uncomfortable because this is our beloved Jags we're talking about but we're still living in the reality of Jax's market is only so big and can support so much.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 04, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study ;).
I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.
However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!
You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me.
I did, but you selected to take it like a southern baptist and not a doubting Thomas. The point was about not being able to come to an agreeable position because our foundational values are totally different. That's all on you. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you. This is an internet discussion board. Don't lose any sleep over it!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2018, 07:16:16 AM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 04, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study ;).
I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.
However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!
You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me.
I did, but you selected to take it like a southern baptist and not a doubting Thomas. The point was about not being able to come to an agreeable position because our foundational values are totally different. That's all on you. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you. This is an internet discussion board. Don't lose any sleep over it!
I assure you I'm the furthest thing from southern baptist (hence my point that a fact-based, research-driven discussion on downtown had no relevance to bible, and wasn't sure why you were bringing that up). I did get your reference based on the bible's literary symbolism as absolute truth and orthodoxy, that your position in the conversation transcended opposing viewpoints. I called out that reference as pompous.
I certainly hope that recruiting new companies to downtown (including to the Stadium Complex) isn't a pipe dream. Didn't we just give incentives to an emerging company like Shared Labs to grow downtown? My point was that companies all over the country are building and expanding presences in downtowns, even if they aren't mega-headquarters, because the young and innovative talent they're targeting like working in mixed-use, urban environments. A new, truly urban campus anywhere downtown (not just in core CBD) could be a draw for some new corporate names to the area, in my opinion. If Khan happens to build a thriving, urban-style corporate campus at the Stadium Complex with new corporate names, and some of those workers end up in residential projects like the new building proposed next to the Ambassador, then I'm all for it.
When I say "it's a pipe dream"...I'm saying it's wishful thinking to hope these guys are pursuing business opportunities that others in the city aren't already doing. They are fishing from the same pond. It's more likely they land JEA instead of Amazon. The renderings are pretty but there's nothing special that sets it apart from what's going on in peer communities across the country.
Well I agree that targeting JEA lacks initiative. I'm also tired of the Iguana renderings, and starting to think Iguana is merely a graphic design firm, and little else. The only thing I thought was somewhat interesting was the idea of converting a vast parking lot into an urban neighborhood with density and grid-patterned streets. I know it's been done before, but I'd still like to see that, frankly.
I like that too and I hope they do it. However, when it comes to incentives, I hope the city is smart enough to not incentivize deals that poach places like JEA from downtown. If that's what they want, they should cover the cost of those deals themselves.
One of the biggest mistakes JX has made DT was putting the CC in the train station. It was a bad location in 1987 and it is still a bad location 30 years later. It has not grown into a good location in that time. It was then and is now too isolated to create synergy with other things like the Landing.
An independent study based on the viability of each location, or a different location altogether, should determine where it goes. Not the wishes of Curry, Khan or anyone else. An independent study should also determine if one should even be built at all.
Slightly off topic, but how about putting a Flex N Gate facility somewhere in Duval County, like Cecil or Northside?
It's not happening but I'd love for Flex N Gate to make its corporate headquarters the anchor of Iguana's project. Now that would really be a Dan Gilbert type of move!
Quote from: vicupstate on August 04, 2018, 08:44:36 AM
One of the biggest mistakes JX has made DT was putting the CC in the train station. It was a bad location in 1987 and it is still a bad location 30 years later. It has not grown into a good location in that time. It was then and is now too isolated to create synergy with other things like the Landing.
An independent study based on the viability of each location, or a different location altogether, should determine where it goes. Not the wishes of Curry, Khan or anyone else. An independent study should also determine if one should even be built at all.
Original plan was to build the convention center where the Omni now stands, but the historical folks won out and the Prime Osborne was chosen instead.
To your point, and to Lake's point about history repeating itself, Metro Park was originally supposed to be a linear urban park/esplanade, connecting the Prime Osborne and the new Jacksonville Landing.
When the City Council voted against shutting down Water Street for the new park, Godbold moved our signature urban park a mile and a half east and created Metropolitan Park, which proved too far from the urban core to have any of the positive externalities on downtown predicted at the time.
30 years later, we're still paying for that decision (and will pay for it again when we're forced to give up other city property in a land swap to fix that mistake).
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 04, 2018, 03:38:20 AM
Glad you believe Lake has it on lock and is all-knowing, and his position on every detail of downtown development is Bible, but I don't. And not sure what you mean by put him in charge, but even if Lake were to run for mayor or get appointed as Downtown Czar, he should still be challenged by a Board or Committee, as any good governance framework should require. So sorry, no unilateral dictators going around asserting their positions as "Bible" in American democracy, be it on downtown or anything else. Lake has a lot of great insights, but resorting to the ridiculous Bible comment on a relatively tame position that the Courthouse site isn't all that important versus the Shipyards one, was unnecessarily pompous. As I've mentioned in the past, I'm not convinced now is the time to focus on a Convention Center. Make downtown great again and appealing to both locals and outsiders for a multitude of reasons, and then monetize its revival with a Convention Center.
Sorry you were offended by his comments. I don't take Lake's commentary in that way (SEE his posts regarding the Heat, Dolphins, and Hurricanes and you'll realize not to take him literally all the time) Likewise, "putting him in charge" was to make a point about his knowledge and experience but not to be taken literally lol. Bolded statement is exactly how I feel. We'll see how this all plays out but I think it would be great to let the CC develop "organically" or as organically as one can be. That would probably put it in the Stadium district some years from now (which like I said might be ideal in the long term) plus would hopefully require less incentives. Or at least not choke off what resources we currently have for the northbank core.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 04, 2018, 08:44:36 AM
One of the biggest mistakes JX has made DT was putting the CC in the train station. It was a bad location in 1987 and it is still a bad location 30 years later. It has not grown into a good location in that time. It was then and is now too isolated to create synergy with other things like the Landing.
An independent study based on the viability of each location, or a different location altogether, should determine where it goes. Not the wishes of Curry, Khan or anyone else. An independent study should also determine if one should even be built at all.
Though I agree with you, the counterpoint is it likely saved the train station. Plus Jacksonville in the 1980's wasn't smart. They likely would have done something the same size as the Prime Osborne and been landlocked.
A lot more details about the Iguana submission, including an early look at how the costs could be split if Iguana is chosen:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/convention-crossroad-whats-next-as-developers-prepare-competing-visions-for-a-new-jacksonville-convention-center
Sounds like the public would be responsible for more than $100 million. No way site work begins less than a year from now.
QuoteKhan indicated the project will use public and private money.
Iguana estimates the convention center will cost $305 million to $315 million, with the team using private equity and debt service to fund its share.
The hotel portion is estimated to cost $115 million to $125 million, paid for with private equity and debt from Iguana and from public funds. The city's portion pays for the connecting parking garage.
"Details of the city's participation shall be finalized at a later date based on final project cost and revenue sources," the submission said.
The project includes the city retaining ownership and footing the bill for expanding the Northbank Riverwalk, reconfiguring the Hart Bridge expressway and Bay Street, building public infrastructure and cleaning up the Shipyards and contamination.
There are no costs outlined for those pieces.
^^ I don't see the figure $100 mm used nor any smaller numbers adding up to that total. The CC and hotel alone total a minimum of $420 mm, which I would expect the city to pay the lion share of. And that is before even mentioning the two garages the city will be completely on the hook for nor the environmental clean-up. Those two items alone could total another $100 mm.
I noticed that the courthouse and city hall annex will be demolished regardless of whether the CC goes there or not.