A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[thelakelander]

lol, saw that. Will be interesting to see development timeline, size and the amount of requested public subsidies.

[Dapperdan]

The Jaguars don't have to build a huge space. They can build moderate and connect it to the Flex Field via pedestrian bridge and bam space is doubled or tripled. And they will have a hotel connected right to it.Definitely interesting to see play out.

[Kerry]

I can see some of you bought the Chamber of Commerce line of thinking about convention centers.  Here is the truth.  For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents.  If that's what our market is, then build around that market.  Don't build for something that is never going to happen.  It is okay for the City to have nice things that local residents enjoy.  You want a new convention center, great, support a new convention center, but for the love of Pete, don't hide behind all these pie in the sky total made up economic benefits because it's insulting.  Just say hey, I go to the Jacksonville Auto Show every year and it would be more enjoyable if the facility was nicer.  Emphasize quality and overall positive experience of the local resident.

I go to the Jacksonville Auto Show and I would like a nice facility.

[Tacachale]

^LOL, I doubt anyone here believes in "these pie in the sky total made up economic benefits".

[thelakelander]

Here is the truth.  For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents.  If that's what our market is, then build around that market.

That's fine. Local residents spend money at local restaurants and retail shops too. Heck, I'm one of them. With that said, I don't believe we need a new convention center.  We just need to replace the exhibition hall at the Prime Osborn (allowing it the opportunity serve as a passenger rail station again), next door to our existing convention center hotel and its meeting rooms and call it a day.  That's about the cheapest option Jax has for addressing its convention center dilemma in a manner that economically benefits the core of downtown. I just don't see what's pie-in-the-sky about clustering complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting.  It's a basic element of any vibrant urban setting.

[Tacachale]

^Yup.

[RattlerGator]

It looks as though Shad envisions exhibition space next to the high-end hotel and -- (gasp!) what's this! -- referred to the Flex Field as . . . exhibition space.

Y'all country boyz might want to catch up.

[FlaBoy]

It is interesting that they refer to the Flex Field as exhibition space.

[Kerry]

Here is the truth.  For a city the size of Jacksonville the vast majority of convention center users are local residents attending events geared at serving local residents.  If that's what our market is, then build around that market.

That's fine. Local residents spend money at local restaurants and retail shops too. Heck, I'm one of them. With that said, I don't believe we need a new convention center.  We just need to replace the exhibition hall at the Prime Osborn (allowing it the opportunity serve as a passenger rail station again), next door to our existing convention center hotel and its meeting rooms and call it a day.  That's about the cheapest option Jax has for addressing its convention center dilemma in a manner that economically benefits the core of downtown. I just don't see what's pie-in-the-sky about clustering complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting.  It's a basic element of any vibrant urban setting.

I totally agree with a local-focus CC, but if Jax moves the convention center from Prime then what does that do to all Skyway plans.  If the CC route is not used for conventions then why even have it exist if all it will do is go to a transit center located in the middle of nowhere.  They might as well move the transit center to someplace else.

Also, let me know when someone comes up with a pedestrian-oriented convention center.  I've never seen one, and trust me, I have looked.  Columbus, OH is about as close as one has come - and it is surrounded by freeways on 3 sides.

[thelakelander]

?? JTA is talking about extending the Skyway down Bay Street to Everbank Field. That path runs right past the courthouse site. Also, getting the PO out of the train station allows for it to be used once again.....as a train station.  Also, it appears much of those vacant lots in LaVilla will end up being apartments:

Lofts at LaVilla


Lofts at Monroe


Houston Street Manor

[Tacachale]

^Also, the ultimate plans for the transit center include redeveloping many of the empty blocks around it. No one thinks that the Prime Osborn is a good location for a convention center.

[Kerry]

What if the existing facility was detached from the train station and rotated to be oriented towards Bay St?  It could create a nice street wall along that part of Bay, use existing transportation investments, and 3 sides don't need money spent on pedestrian orientation.  Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.

[thelakelander]

Why spend just as much money to improve the Prime Osborn (still leaving it without direct connectivity to necessary supportive land uses) when you could move the exhibition hall to a spot where it actually makes sense?

Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.

If 24/7 heavy industrial use like Maxwell House can operate on Bay Street, getting trucks in at an exhibition hall won't be a problem.

[Kerry]

Why spend just as much money to improve the Prime Osborn (still leaving it without direct connectivity to necessary supportive land uses) when you could move the exhibition hall to a spot where it actually makes sense?

Let's not forget, modern convention centers need a pretty significant loading dock - up to 21 simultaneous semis.

If 24/7 heavy industrial use like Maxwell House can operate on Bay Street, getting trucks in at an exhibition hall won't be a problem.

Is Maxwell House walkable urbanism?  I know Jax is just getting the CC idea rolling but I just went through 5 years of this in OKC.  They had this idea that they were going to build the CC and create it as the center piece of some grand walkable urbanism idea - then they found out how much that costs and that it is really impossible to do, and moved it to where it is going now - wedged up against an elevated road so they only have to make one side of it nice.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, Maxwell House is about as old school "walkable urban" industrial as you can find in Jax. It's been there 100 years and is right up on the street.  They don't build them like that anymore. It's a classic throw back to what that corridor once was and should be preserved.



I'm still not seeing why expanding a convention center in an isolated location, without a hotel, restaurants, etc. is a good thing. What you've sketched out requires more land area and is something much larger than what Jax actually needs.  It also eats up space once used for passenger rail support services....assuming down the line, we'd want rail back at the JRTC one day.

If an exhibition hall was built at the courthouse site, Liberty Street would most likely be the spot where service uses would be oriented. That's basically what it has served as for the last century. This would allow you to do some interesting things at ground level with the north (Bay) and south (new riverwalk) elevations.