A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[jaxnyc79]

thelakelander, the 0.4 mile distance I cited was roughly from the Former Courthouse site of a Convention Center to the Shipyards site of a Convention Center.

I know we all want to prove our points here, but just checked again, and Google Maps puts 112 East Bay Street to the entrance to Intuition Ale Works at 0.7 miles (But 112 East Bay is a bit too far west for the proposed Courthouse site, and a N/S line drawn from Intuition Ale puts one well into the Shipyards property - conceivably, a Shipyards Convention Center complex will start a bit further east than the Intuition Ale point on Bay Street).   

Looking at the Iguana rendering, the entrance to the Convention Center is opposite the eastern end of the existing retention pond, that will have a parking garage built over it, east of WTLV.  This is about two-tenths to a quarter mile east of Intuition.  This is based on the drawing provided, and what we are discussing, and not a different, hypothetical, CC opposite Intuition. If I remember correctly, the Hart Ramp south of Intuition will remain, and a loop ramp added to A.P.Randolph/Gator Bowl Blvd., to connect west to Duval/Monroe/Adams/Forsyth (either vehicular or pedestrian/bike).

Hmm, 0.4 to 0.65.  Of course, that's the entrance into the Complex from the Parking Garage, who's to say there won't be another entrance into the complex further west?  Or perhaps this 500,000 square foot complex will only have one entrance from Bay Street, which is 0.25 miles further east than Intuition Ale's point on Bay, which proves the point that the Convention Center must be at the Courthouse site or all Downtown's future is shot.  Got it.  Actually, it's an artist's rendering - so the whole conversation is largely hypothetical.

[thelakelander]

I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal.

Distance and location is a big deal if creating pedestrian level synergy and energy in downtown is a major goal of the project. In the past it was. If this isn't a core aspect of the investment, then distance doesn't matter. Might as well build it at the beach.

I go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed.  In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex.  Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town.

I go to a variety as well. I and others I know do get out an explore. Consistently, the cities that are walkable and lively tend to be the most desired locations.

Let's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows.

Correct and incorrect. Correct that it can be a disappointment. Incorrect or not acknowledgement for how you change that disappointment is to strategically place complementing land uses in a setting that stimulates synergy to grow foot traffic and generate additional business opportunity. For example, if we want the Elbow, Hyatt and Landing to be better, placing a convention center within walking distance of these existing urban investments has the merit of providing them with more exposure and foot traffic. That combination can grow into an environment that isn't a massive disappointment (aka like the Gaslamp in San Diego).

So if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great.  But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing.  The Landing?  The Elbow?

The Elbow is downtown's current entertainment district. The Landing is a place that could be a lot more than it currently is. Strategic public investments within walking distance of them are about the biggest boost we can do with their future from a public investment standpoint. On the other hand, Cordish is simply a Landing 2.0. We can build it but what it really does is transfer that activity to the stadium. With that said, I don't believe people travel to cities or select convention sites based on if they have Cordish entertainment centers. There's nothing unique about them.

Frankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district.  There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize.  So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.

I've been measuring this one for over a decade now. When I speak about the need of nearby restaurants, hotels, entertainment, etc., I envision the Landing, Elbow, Hyatt, Trio, Hotel Indigo, Florida Theater, riverwalk, TU performing arts center, etc. being those things, with the added foot traffic helping consume the vacant spaces separating them.

[KenFSU]

Lamping spoke with reporters this afternoon:

- $425 to $450 million price tag
- Iguana would ask for a public contribution from the city that would make sense for all parties involved
- Lamping estimated a 2021 start date, with Lot J coming first, then Hart ramp removal
- Four Seasons being planned for stadium district, but not for convention hotel
- Actively pursuing JEA for Lot J

[jaxjags]

Series of events:

1. DIA evaluates Courthouse site bids
2. Winner is chosen
3. Development agreement is never worked out. Developer wants too much city contribution.
4. Meanwhile lot J is built and ramps come down
5. Khan presents his offer, which city cannot refuse.

That is the political way it gets done, not the preffered logical way.

[jaxnyc79]

I can agree with waiting and seeing, but I still hold that the distance isn't a big deal.

Distance and location is a big deal if creating pedestrian level synergy and energy in downtown is a major goal of the project. In the past it was. If this isn't a core aspect of the investment, then distance doesn't matter. Might as well build it at the beach.

I go to these things all the time, and while I can't account for how every convention works, conventioneers generally stay in the Convention Complex most of the day because that's where all of the content is being consumed.  In the early evening, there's networking and cocktails and victuals, also in the complex.  Finally, everyone breaks up and various groups, cliques, special interests break away from the Center to see what else is going on around town.

I go to a variety as well. I and others I know do get out an explore. Consistently, the cities that are walkable and lively tend to be the most desired locations.

Let's just be clear, right now, an evening walk anywhere in Jax will be a MASSIVE disappointment, and so conventioneers would have no choice but to uber the hell out of downtown to perhaps San Marco or who knows.

Correct and incorrect. Correct that it can be a disappointment. Incorrect or not acknowledgement for how you change that disappointment is to strategically place complementing land uses in a setting that stimulates synergy to grow foot traffic and generate additional business opportunity. For example, if we want the Elbow, Hyatt and Landing to be better, placing a convention center within walking distance of these existing urban investments has the merit of providing them with more exposure and foot traffic. That combination can grow into an environment that isn't a massive disappointment (aka like the Gaslamp in San Diego).

So if conventioneers will be able to walk to Cordish or to some other candidate for Downtown's entertainment district, then that's great.  But what other places are candidates for an entertainment district besides what Khan is proposing.  The Landing?  The Elbow?

The Elbow is downtown's current entertainment district. The Landing is a place that could be a lot more than it currently is. Strategic public investments within walking distance of them are about the biggest boost we can do with their future from a public investment standpoint. On the other hand, Cordish is simply a Landing 2.0. We can build it but what it really does is transfer that activity to the stadium. With that said, I don't believe people travel to cities or select convention sites based on if they have Cordish entertainment centers. There's nothing unique about them.

Frankly, that's what we should be measuring, the distance between a Convention Center Complex and the likeliest candidate for Downtown's entertainment district.  There's not even close to a credible entertainment district in Jax at the moment, and we shouldn't be relying on a convention center to make one materialize.  So yes, let's figure out where the pulse of Downtown will be, and then talk about a Convention Center at that time.

I've been measuring this one for over a decade now. When I speak about the need of nearby restaurants, hotels, entertainment, etc., I envision the Landing, Elbow, Hyatt, Trio, Hotel Indigo, Florida Theater, riverwalk, TU performing arts center, etc. being those things, with the added foot traffic helping consume the vacant spaces separating them.

We have different definitions of entertainment district.  In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc.  Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers.  When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district.  That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.

[KenFSU]

^Speaking of which, it's worth pointing out that Khan's team (DeBartolo, Rimrock Devin) both made political contributions to Curry earlier this summer.

[thelakelander]

We have different definitions of entertainment district.  In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc.  Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers.  When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district.  That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.

Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.

I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.

What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.

I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.

[thelakelander]

^Speaking of which, it's worth pointing out that Khan's team (DeBartolo, Rimrock Devin) both made political contributions to Curry earlier this summer.

It's also worth pointing out that most of their developments are suburban......like Sleiman's ;-)

[Tacachale]

We have different definitions of entertainment district.  In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc.  Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers.  When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district.  That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.

Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.

I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.

What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.

I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.

I'd add that one major reason to build a convention center is to bring more foot traffic and entertainment dollars to the area you want it - in this case, the downtown core. If it can't do that effectively - and being separated by a mile of deadspace does greatly reduce the impact it'll have on the core - there's much less reason to spend the money at all.

[jaxnyc79]

We have different definitions of entertainment district.  In the future, hopefully downtown will be full of residences and each downtown neighborhood, and frankly, each downtown resident will have ample and diverse amenities nearby - a nice place to eat, a couple nice watering holes, a convenience store, a pharmacy, etc.  Even the CBD can be a vital and walkable place with low office vacancy rates, downtown residents, but not be the entertainment hub for conventioneers.  When I was in Jax earlier this summer, the Elbow felt like a nice little corner of amenities, but not even close to an entertainment district.  That may be your vision for the Elbow, but it's not the current reality, in my humble opinion.

Go back 30 years ago, neither Beale, Ybor or the Gaslamp were what they are today. At best, they were the Elbow. In Ybor's case, it was the hood. However, I'd believe you'd consider them to be an entertainment district today. Clustering is a major reason behind that happening.

I admit, I may be a bit confusing since I tend to talk as if everyone posting has clear understanding of downtown's development background at least since 2005. Nevertheless, I think you're missing my point and not understanding the history of events and investments on how we've reached this point.

What I describe is not my vision. It's what was sold when we invested to build the TU Performing Arts Center. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Landing. It's what was sold when we invested to build the Hyatt. It's what when we invested to streetscape Bay Street. While the Elbow may not be what you envision as an "entertainment district" in 2018, it's existing venues, adjacent vacant storefronts and spaces provide the backbone of what could be as lively and authentic as any urban entertainment scene in the US. The tried and true method tends to revolve around continued clustering and incremental infusion of complementing infill, strengthening foot traffic and additional business opportunities within a compact pedestrian scale setting.

I'm simply saying stick with tried and true methods, by densifying and building upon previous investments. I'm not claiming that what you see today is the final product.

I appreciate what you're saying.  You're right, the city has wasted tons of money on "game-changers."  All the developments you cited, they fail in streetscape activation.  That's why a stroll through much of downtown Jax still sucks in my opinion.  It really should be fairly simple.  Take downtown buildings, whether 50 stories or 1-story, abut them against the sidewalk, open their ground floors up to the streetscape with windows and lights, and cluster them along corridors with as little deadspace from walls and garages as possible, and it is my belief downtown will make the biggest strides it's ever seen, even without game-changing projects and tons of incentives.  The core can be great even without some big box convention center right smack dab in the middle of it.  I'm not arguing against the Convention Center being at the Courthouse site, once again, I'm just making the point that I don't see a ton of difference between it being there and being at the Shipyards.  If the Cordish projects have a ton of streetscape activation along with a bunch of new entertainment and restaurant venues, well then I'm all for that being a Downtown Jax entertainment hub.  I mean, Tacachale is saying we need the convention center for foot traffic downtown, well between the Arena, Stadium, Baseball stadium, Daily's Place, the stadium complex brings in tons of people all the time.  Those people "COULD BE" foot traffic for that part of downtown, if they had stuff to walk to before and after taking in their shows/events/games.  So since we already have venues to bring thousands of people into one general area in downtown on a regular basis, let's turn those "assemblies" into foot traffic as well.  Not sure why you guys are trying to pit stadium complex against the CBD.  Both have tons of fundamental opportunity for foot traffic.  Frankly, the large groups of potential foot traffic flooding into the stadium complex are much more ready to party than the large groups of office workers who tend to assemble closer to the current site of the City Hall Annex and Former Courthouse.

[thelakelander]

The whole point about generating foot traffic is to have more people walking past the struggling, underutilized and vacant storefronts, thus creating market rate opportunities and conditions for their use. That opportunity goes away when you use public money to siphon the little foot traffic in that particular area to an isolated disneyfied competitive location a mile east. This opportunity was one of the major reasons of considering the relocation of the convention center in the first place. I believe this is the main problem with distance. All the stuff you complain about downtown only struggles more when you use public money to help kill it as opposed to helping improve it.

Speaking of public handouts, if we're subsidizing Lot J, we're basically giving incentives to relocate JEA and the Landing from the downtown core. How does that help with it's renaissance?

[jaxnyc79]

The whole point about generating foot traffic is to have more people walking past the struggling, underutilized and vacant storefronts, thus creating market rate opportunities and conditions for their use. That opportunity goes away when you use public money to siphon the little foot traffic in that particular area to an isolated disneyfied competitive location a mile east. This opportunity was one of the major reasons of considering the relocation of the convention center in the first place. I believe this is the main problem with distance. All the stuff you complain about downtown only struggles more when you use public money to help kill it as opposed to helping improve it.

Speaking of public handouts, if we're subsidizing Lot J, we're basically giving incentives to relocate JEA and the Landing from the downtown core. How does that help with it's renaissance?

How many people visit the Stadium Complex each year?  It would be nice to convert those visits into foot traffic in one way or another.  They're going to visit the Stadium area anyway, and the Stadium Complex is part of downtown.  Yes, the CBD needs attention, and again, if the Courthouse site becomes more residences, that will help give it attention.  But still, Stadium Complex has a gathering of bodies needing conversion to foot traffic. 

[thelakelander]

The point of desiring foot traffic in the Northbank is to generate market rate economic use for the underutilized buildings, vacant storefronts and struggling businesses. There's nothing but parking lots around the stadium so the same need does not exist. Regardless of what happens at the stadium district, that need is still going to be there for the walkable urban core. You just make it harder to revitalize it when you spend your limited amount of public funding dedicated to downtown development on projects that don't accomplish (and possibly compete against) that core point.

[RattlerGator]

#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:

#InShadWeTrust.

[Adam White]

#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:

#InShadWeTrust.

I was starting to worry that you were dead or something, RG. Hadn't seen you in ages.