Metro Jacksonville

NE Florida's News & Opinion Magazine had a different outlook on the $63 million stadium upgrades.

Per Folio:

http://folioweekly.com/19-THINGS-WE-COULD-HAVE-DONE-INSTEAD-OF-BUILD-SHAD-KHANS-SCOREBOARDS,10463 (http://folioweekly.com/19-THINGS-WE-COULD-HAVE-DONE-INSTEAD-OF-BUILD-SHAD-KHANS-SCOREBOARDS,10463)

19 THINGS WE COULD HAVE DONE INSTEAD OF BUILD SHAD KHAN'S SCOREBOARDS

By Jeffrey C. Billman and Susan Cooper Eastman

On its face, the deal was absurd, so absurd that it drew the mockery of no less than late-night sage Stephen Colbert: A city with so many very pressing needs giving a billionaire more than $43 million to install new scoreboards and soup up the stadium his lackluster football team calls home, all in the name of putting more butts in seats (and more money in his wallet).

The reality is more nuanced, of course, but still, that's essentially what Mayor Alvin Brown and the Jacksonville City Council agreed to last year. The city ponied up two-thirds of the money Jaguars owner Shad Khan — a man who owns a 61st-floor penthouse in Chicago — wanted for upgrades to EverBank Field to boost lagging attendance. (In 2013, the 4-12 Jags averaged 59,940 fans per home game, 28th out of the NFL's 32 teams. Call us naïve, but we think attendance and the team's record are more interrelated than attendance and the lack of ginormous scoreboards.)

And so, with much pomp and circumstance and a soccer match and a Carrie Underwood concert, Khan will unveil these enhancements on Saturday evening to tens of thousands of spectators — spectators, it's worth noting, who paid good money to see the upgrades their tax dollars had purchased — part of what Khan has called a tribute to Jacksonville: the two super-hi-def video boards, the largest in the world (as the several billboards around town informed us), that adorn both ends of the field. A section of these video boards will show other football games via NFL RedZone while the Jags play. There's also a new "fan zone," with two pools and 16 cabanas, a place for the well-heeled to luxuriate during the game (the cabana package, only $12,500 per game, includes 50 tickets).

This is in some respects a variation on a story we've seen play out in so many cities in Florida and across the country: sports team owners, 1 percenters all, demanding that taxpayers help build or enhance game facilities for them. These proposals are usually pitched to the public as a form of economic development or a fulcrum of community pride — making cities "world-class," taking them to the "next level." And these pitches are almost always successful, because there's almost always an implicit (or sometimes explicit) threat that if the city doesn't do what the sports team wants, the sports team may depart for greener and more acquiescent pastures.

In 2012, for instance, Miami taxpayers spent $639 million to construct a new stadium for the Marlins, a deal widely regarded as one of the largest boondoggles in sports history. In 2010, Orlando paid $480 million toward an arena for the Orlando Magic (and last year, committed another $70 million to a stadium for the Orlando City Soccer Club, which will begin play in the MLS in 2015). Just last week, the Detroit Red Wings unveiled plans for a new $650 million hockey arena, most of which will be borne by the residents of that bankrupt city.

This happens despite the fact that the economics literature is clear and unequivocal: Subsidizing stadiums doesn't boost communities' economies in any tangible way. In the words of economists Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist, authors of Sports, Jobs, and Taxes: The Economic Impact of Sports Teams and Stadiums: "A new sports facility has an extremely small (perhaps even negative) effect on overall economic activity and employment." According to economists Dennis Coates and Brad R. Humphreys, in a 2000 journal article: "Despite the beliefs of local officials and their hired consultants about the economic benefits of publicly subsidized stadium construction, the consensus of academic economists has been that such policies do not raise incomes." And so on.

The EverBank upgrades are something of a different animal — a much smaller animal, for starters. In 2007, a Jaguars-commissioned study determined that EverBank needed $148 million in work. (This, just two years after the city spent $24 million for improvements ahead of the 2005 Super Bowl.) The scoreboard package costs less than half of that, and much less than the half-billion or more a brand-new stadium would require. And there's an argument to be made that having a really nice stadium and a professional football team keeps Jacksonville on the national and international stage, and gives the community a sense of pride and place — intangible, rather than tangible, benefits.

But the underlying criticism is the same: Tax dollars helping a rich man get richer.

Corporate welfare.

The city would counter that, as Brown pointed out last year, "the revenue is already going to maintain the stadium. Now, it will be invested in some of the most significant enhancements in the history of EverBank Field."

And he's right: The $43 million came from bonds taken out against the city's bed tax, the 6 percent surcharge tourists pay on hotel stays, which netted a little more than $16 million in 2013. (Statewide, counties collect more than $650 million in tourism taxes each year, more than a quarter of which comes from Orange County alone; Duval is but a bit player in the state's tourism economy.) Of that amount, a third is set aside to promote tourism, another third is used to pay off the debt the city incurred to build what is now EverBank Field, and the final third is used for upkeep and maintenance at the football stadium, the Baseball Grounds and Veterans Memorial Arena.

Thanks to forces well beyond Alvin Brown's control — namely, Disney and other powerful tourism interests that pump millions of dollars into state legislators' coffers each election cycle — that $16 million can't be spent on, say, hiring new teachers or cops, or improving mass transit or cleaning up the St. Johns River. The tourism tax was created at the behest of the industry to promote tourism — and later expanded to sports facilities, under the dubious theory that they, too, promote tourism. The industry is very determined to keep it that way, to keep that Pandora's box very tightly sealed and to date, Tallahassee has been more than happy to oblige.

So even if you think the scoreboards are an egregious waste of taxpayer money, you can't really fault the mayor; he's playing the hand he was dealt.

But let's exercise our imaginations for a minute: What if those constraints didn't exist? What if those bed taxes, just like the property and sales taxes you pay, weren't horded by hoteliers and tourism interests? What if they could be spent on whatever we wanted or needed?

What could $43 million buy?

We have a few ideas — things we think would make Jacksonville a better place to live and work and raise a family, things that would bolster our environment and improve transportation and make our streets a little bit safer. (And a few things we threw in because we thought they'd be fun.)

This is a sports town. We get that. But the fact is, while the scoreboards will give Jaguars home games a commercial slickness, they won't do much of anything to improve this city's overall quality of life. And maybe, in light of Khan's celebration this weekend, it's worth thinking about what could have been.

1.) Restore Jacksonville's 50 dirtiest creeks. Almost all of Jacksonville's creeks are poisoned with pollutants, clogged with contaminated soil, and need restoration and stormwater treatment to return to health. In 2005, the Florida Department of Environmental Protection gave the city a list of the 50 dirtiest. In 2012, consultants estimated the cost of removing the 16,000 possibly leaky septic tanks within about a quarter-mile of the St. Johns River at $400 million. That $43 million would be just a raindrop, but what a place Jacksonville would be if its creeks and rivers were pristine again. (Brown's recent proposed budget calls for $12 million in capital investments for septic-tank removal, and another $12.5 million for other stormwater projects.)

2.) Increase police bike patrols. Stepping aside as couple of cops on bikes pass by makes a stroll along the Riverwalk feel safer, but the truth is, the bike patrols just aren't all that visible. With $43 million, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office could triple the number of cops on bikes, from the 15 deployed from Talleyrand to the Acosta Bridge to 45, and pay this expanded unit's salaries for eight years. Perhaps the JSO could also expand the bike patrol area to include 5 Points and King Street, as well as the Southbank Riverwalk and San Marco.

3.) Install 13,000 surveillance cameras. JSO recently put electronic eyes in the Northside neighborhoods targeted by Operation Ceasefire. The cops could expand that campaign to 13,0000 cameras so as to monitor the movements of our citizens — er, criminals. The Axis dome camera can be programmed to 256 preset positions, and has motion detectors that sense and follow movement and can zoom in for a close-up.

4.) Build a light rail line to the Northside. The city could turn the abandoned 4.8-mile S-Line track, which runs from the Prime Osborn to Gateway Mall, into a light rail system and pedestrian/bike path, as Ennis Davis of Metro Jacksonville has been advocating since 2007. In 2008, the rail line's price tag was estimated at $31 million.

5.) Extend the Riverwalks. For $43 million, according to 2011 estimates, both the Northbank and Southbank Riverwalks could be extended 3.5 miles. Of course, there isn't enough land available for that, but that money is surely enough to stretch the riverwalks as far as possible, and make them more people- and dog-friendly, with shade trees, water fountains and other amenities.

6.) Create a night trolley to connect urban core neighborhoods on weekends. This trolley service would make it easy to hop between the urban core's cultural hotspots, connecting Downtown, Riverside, San Marco and Springfield on weekend nights. Based on the estimated $30,000 JTA says it costs to run the Riverside trolley the first weekend of every month for a year, $43 million would fund four lines running from 6 p.m. to 2 a.m. every weekend for 90 years.

7.) Restore the Emerald Necklace. Since 2000, there's been a plan in place to create eight miles of city parks with biking and pedestrian paths, which would connect to the St. Johns and ring Downtown with green. In 2000, the city estimated this project, whose name was coined by architect Henry Klutho, would cost $20 million. Because both creeks are badly contaminated, it's hard to pin down the exact costs to do it right. Safe to say it would cost more than $43 million but, hey, Jacksonville needs more places to gather and, if nothing else, that money would make a nice down payment.

8.) Build 3,308 covered bus shelters. Jacksonville needs bus stops where people can wait for public transportation with at least some protection from the elements. (Jacksonville averages four feet of rain a year.) Taking a cue from Phoenix and other cities, a bus shelter campaign could also be fashioned as a public art project.

9.) Put a down payment on an aquarium. AquaJax, the group seeking to build a world-class aquarium Downtown [Cover Story, "An Aquarium to Transform Jacksonville," Susan Cooper Eastman, April 9], estimates that the structure will cost about $100 million; $43 million covers nearly half of that.

10.) Extend the Skyway. It costs an estimated $7,229 per foot to extend Downtown's vastly underutilized circulator. For $43 million, the city could extend the Skyway for one mile, and still have a $3 million cushion. Think of it this way: Would more people ride the thing if it stopped in 5 Points? The city has already asked the feds for money to connect the Skyway to Brooklyn. Five Points is just a mile from there.

11.) Build (most of) a street-car line from Downtown to 5 Points. The total estimated cost is $50 million. This project was originally going to be funded by development impact fees, but those fees are on hold.

12.) Create a jobs program. For $43 million, the city could fund for a decade a jobs program that would pay 206 people in high-unemployment demographics $10 an hour for an internship or on-the-job training at area businesses for a year. Those businesses, then, would commit to hiring successful recruits for a period after the internship ends.

13.) Extend library operating hours at the Main Library and four branches from 10 a.m. to midnight on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and give people a place to hang out that feeds the soul and gives students time to research term papers. It would cost $371,820 a year to keep the doors of the Main Library and four regional branches open until midnight on weekends. With $43 million, we could keep that going for decades.

14.) Create the Jacksonville Mojo Residency. Free idea, Jacksonville, courtesy of your friends at Folio Weekly: As part of the Mojo Residency — hat tip to Shad Khan himself for the comment about the city's mojo that inspired the name — nationally and internationally renowned artists, musicians, gardeners, thinkers and others would receive a year-long fellowship, say, $100,000, plus access to a live/work space, to live and work Downtown and fashion a series of city-funded or city-supported happenings. Or, thinking bigger, Jacksonville could create a $43 million trust to fund art, music and literary projects, including the Mojo fellowship.

15.) Build a water park (and the world's biggest water slide). Schlitterbahn (that's German for "slippery road"), a company that owns water parks across the country, plans to spend $40 million on the water portion of a park in Ft. Lauderdale. We could do the same on the 40-acre Shipyards property. Oh, and as part of the deal, we could require the park developer to build the world's tallest water slide (the current champ, at Schlitterbahn's Kansas City park, is 168 feet, 7 inches tall, according to the Guinness Book of World Records), which is, for our money, way cooler than having the world's largest scoreboards.

16.) Hire a bunch of public schoolteachers: $43 million would pay for more than 1,100 first-year public school teachers to work in Duval County schools for a year. Or we could add 110 new teachers and pay them for a decade.

17.) Invest in Downtown. A lot. Earlier this year, the Downtown Investment Authority unveiled a plan to attract homeowners and businesses to the urban core through a combination of tax breaks and subsidies. This would all be funded by what's called tax incremental financing, which basically means leveraging future increased property values to kick-start growth now. Imagine what the DIA could do with an extra $43 million in seed money.

18.) Fund the USS Charles F. Adams Floating Museum. Speaking of the DIA, last year the group backed the creation of a museum out of the USS Charles F. Adams, which would be permanently docked along the Northbank at The Shipyards, highlighting Jacksonville's naval history and drawing upward of 150,000 visitors a year. The nonprofit Jacksonville Historic Naval Ship Association set a $3.4 million fundraising goal. We could pay for that and have mountains of dough to spare.

19.) Close down the Main Street Bridge and throw a one-night shindig that spans the St. Johns River. Cost: Hiring off-duty cops to redirect traffic, so not much. Forget the $43 million. We'd have a helluva party.

An illustration of priorities & perspective.

Glad Folio has found it's old voice.  Bill your comment is perfect priorities & perspective.  This is what has been lacking so often in our local government. 

The Folio piece is a breath of fresh air.  I was beginning to believe that the current mustached tycoon was going to ease along the path to greater power and influence -- and wealth -- without any criticism at all.  Folio ... having balls ... displayed its freedom ... and offered some welcomed questions. 

Now what if Kahn attempts to buy Folio for half a billion to silence any questioning of his path to further riches in our city?

Of course .. things are happening in Jax because of the mustached fellow.  And I can appreciate what he has done ... with a certain caution however.  Money is power, as they say.  Money, lots of it, allows maneuvering to achieve personal goals.

The issue will be whether the power structure in our city -- the mayor, the city council, and the various groups concerned with the direction of our city -- will ensure that whatever Mr. Kahn does to enhance his long term wealth -- that it also enhances the city's prospects for achieving its long term goals.   

Given the tycoon's maneuvering so far -- one step here ... another there ... all designed strategically to gain further favor and approval, and ... let's be honest ... funds from the city's coffers; the question will be whether or not the investments made by the tax payer will result in solid, long term gains for the city -- solid improvements in infrastructures .. as in along the shipyards waterfront.

How easy will it be to determine the long term effects of the various projects proposed for the shipyard area?  What will be the best use of this valuable waterfront area?  Will the proposed use enhance the tycoon's wealth for the short term, but at the expense of the city's long term effort to establish the "best" for its future? 

I urge caution.  Some tycoons are slick.  The wink of the eye to the mayor, and other powers in the city.  A tradeoff here, another there.  Give a little piece, then take another ... sometimes a big piece.  The tycoon is slick.  We ... somebody in our city ... must be slick too.   ;)

 

 

Quote from: Bill Hoff on July 28, 2014, 10:56:51 PM
An illustration of priorities & perspective.

Bingo Bill. You nailed it.

Now let's share a RICO kayak paddle through our CRA/DIA zone. 2014-305 Active legislation before the Jacksonville city council new docking Rules and PENALTIES will include Shipyards.

CRA/DIA Board meeting 7/30/14 4pm city hall. Open to the Public. Live Public Service feed on the new video scoreboards. Why not?

$63,000 scoreboards.
$200,000,000 plus million in the upcoming budget on projects using the banking fund.
A property tax increase.

A new Authority
Embrace It
Or
It will Embrace Us.

Priorities and Perspective

Khan spends a few million on large pong screens, has a plan for the Shipyards (who doesn't these days), throws some money into his "stache" fund to help a few businesses, and then gets his picture with the Mayor with some towels around his neck.........you'd swear he should be given the key to the city. After all, the Mayor bends over backwards and gives Khan whatever he wants.

How quickly we forget the generosity of the Weavers. They recently gave their house to local charities and have given so much more back to the COMMUNITY. Look at their numbers and the good that has come from them. Mr. Khan, sir, you have a long way to go to give back to the community. After all, you could have easily donated your boat, Kismit, to a local charity, which would have gone a long way to show your generosity, but it was not meant to be. I hope he really and truly invests in Jacksonville, for the good, the bad and the ugly sides.

The article reads as an unsuccessful attempt at satire to me.

Considering the revenue from the tax used to fund the stadium upgrades cannot be used for things like hiring police, training teachers or building bus shelters. Perhaps the outrage should be towards the state governing how the revenue from the tax can be spent. And not at how the city is spending it.

Quote from: pierre on July 29, 2014, 06:04:24 AM
The article reads as an unsuccessful attempt at satire to me.

I have to agree with you here, Pierre. "Haters gonna hate"...

All the people at Folio or on here that has an "opinion" of what Mr. Khan should or shouldn't do with his money - what have YOU done for the community?  Do you have an expensive toy that you have "donated" to charity, or even something not so expensive?  While sure, it is pretty common for the uber rich to "give" and become philanthropists, since when did it become mandatory for billionaires to give to the community (which he clearly has)?  It's really easy for people to have an opinion about how other successful people should spend their money.

As far as the city's contribution to the video boards, if you have a problem with the city's spending, talk about the city, not the entrepreneur that has worked hard to become successful.  AND when you are bitching about the city spending money to put Jax on the map by being able to say we have "biggest in the world" - try to understand that at least this city is using funds to draw tourism.

And like was pointed out earlier on here, have an understanding of HOW those specific funds can be spent, as mandated by the state, before you start trying to "play Mayor".

And THAT, like yours... is MY opinion :)

I think the article is pure genius....a dose of perspective (reality) is very helpful

The jaguars brought Shad Khan and Wayne Weaver to town, now use your  folio to line a birdcage or something more useful than reading this article.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2014, 07:59:12 AM
I think the article is pure genius....a dose of perspective (reality) is very helpful

How is a list of suggestions for how the scoreboard money could have been used, none of which are legally permissable using bed tax funds, genius, helpful, or realistic?

With all due respect to Folio Weekly, I expect better from them. Articles like this, which irrationally vilify Khan and the city for spending tax dollars on new scoreboards when library hours are being slashed and crime is on the rise, are pure sensationalism and do nothing but reinforce the overall ignorance of what the bed tax is, and how it can be used under Florida law.

I understand taking issue with bed tax policy, and I also understand taking issue with public subsidies being used for professional sports, but to lay these nationwide criticisms directly at the feet of Shad Khan and Mayor Brown, that seems a little misguided to me.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 29, 2014, 04:10:14 AM
How quickly we forget the generosity of the Weavers. They recently gave their house to local charities and have given so much more back to the COMMUNITY. Look at their numbers and the good that has come from them. Mr. Khan, sir, you have a long way to go to give back to the community. After all, you could have easily donated your boat, Kismit, to a local charity, which would have gone a long way to show your generosity, but it was not meant to be. I hope he really and truly invests in Jacksonville, for the good, the bad and the ugly sides.

I love the Weavers and wholeheartedly agree that they have done a lot for this city, up to and including finding a new owner for the Jaguars who was intent on keeping them in Jacksonville. That said, Wayne Weaver also went to the city with hat in hand for stadium upgrades, and let's not pretend that Jacksonville and the Jaguars didn't make Wayne Weaver wildly rich either. Weaver bought the Jaguars for $140 million in 1993, and sold the team for $770 million in 2011. His net worth was $250 million when he purchased the Jags, and over $1 billion after he sold them. Good for him, I'm not bashing him for it at all, but I think it's way too early for any kind of Altruistic Weavers vs. Selfish Khan discussion.

We sit around on this forum and complain about the city not investing in quality of life projects and then when they try to blast them for it. 

Is it just that this qol investment doesn't pass a snob test I don't know about.

Perhaps too many suburban people will like this so we have to reject it.

So no wish list about the money spent on the collins road off ramp or outer belt way from folio but hey never miss a chance to vilify a billionaire no matter how he has conducted himself.  Having the money makes him evil enough....

It is sad that this article seems to pass the smell test from some posters I usually think are bright. 

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
To be accurate, the bed tax can be used for whatever purposes the city votes for it.  Its for the promotion of tourism, not a piggy bank for any of the sports teams.

It certainly cannot be used for the majority of things listed by the Folio.

Jeffery S,

True.

If they wanted to identify multi million dollar subsidies for projects and ponder what else could be done with money, the list would be very long.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:49:42 AM

Quote from: pierre on July 29, 2014, 08:48:06 AM

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
To be accurate, the bed tax can be used for whatever purposes the city votes for it.  Its for the promotion of tourism, not a piggy bank for any of the sports teams.

It certainly cannot be used for the majority of things listed by the Folio.

hmm.  i don't have a dog in this show, but which part of the ordinance says that?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0200-0299/0212/Sections/0212.0305.html

Quote3. All consolidated county convention development moneys, including any interest accrued thereon, received by a county imposing the levy must be used in any of the following manners, although the utilization authorized in sub-subparagraph a. shall apply only to municipalities with a population of 10,000 or more:
a. To promote and advertise tourism;
b. To extend, enlarge, and improve existing publicly owned convention centers in the county;
c. To construct a multipurpose convention/coliseum/exhibition center or the maximum components thereof as funds permit in the county; and
d. To acquire, construct, extend, enlarge, remodel, repair, improve, or maintain one or more convention centers, stadiums, exhibition halls, arenas, coliseums, or auditoriums.

Jacksonville has a third of the bed tax go to pay off debt on the stadium, a third go to sports complex improvements and a third go to tourism advertising (mostly Visit Jacksonville).

The problem with the article is, let's face it, NONE of these things would have happened. The Council would cry about money being spent, the average Jacksonville citizen would cry about the waste of money, the "studies" would continue unabated and in 10 or so years nothing would have happened anyway. Some of this list might happen but we have been reading about these ideas for YEARS.

Khan has deep pockets and if he wants to put millions into downtown and the shipyards I applaud him. I realize the plans he has presented for the shipyards are preliminary but I love the concept. It's been almost a decade and a half since the original shipyard plan was announced and all that developed property looks great doesn't it?

Maybe what Khan has done with the stadium will be the stimulus for his plans for the shipyards and his commitment to Jacksonville.
At this point in time I welcome any improvement anywhere downtown.

We should all be happy that someone is willing to something even if it includes adding giant video screens and swimming pools to Everbank. Besides everyone would have fought about where the money should have gone anyway and in another 10 years nothing would have happened.

How many other businesses receive substantial funds from the bed tax?

Quote from: mbwright on July 29, 2014, 09:06:55 AM
How many other businesses receive substantial funds from the bed tax?

The Jaguars are not receiving funds from the tax. The money is going to the stadium, where the Jaguars are a tenant. As are the Gator Bowl, the Fla-Ga game, the Monster Jam, Country Music Superfest.

Would everybody be happier if the Jaguars themselves paid for the entire stadium upgrade instead of 1/3 of them. And then just turn off the new scoreboard during the Fla/Ga game? Close off the cabana area during the Gator Bowl?

This is the battle that will never end. 5 yrs from now people will still be complaining about the wasted money on scoreboards. My opinion has been made on this subject on the numerous other threads that MJ has. But one good thing about this article, and the comments on this thread, is that it points out blatantly that this is a changing of the guard. Old Jacksonville is on it's way out and new Jacksonville is finally beginning to come in.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 09:14:20 AM
Do we get to use it for public messaging and events?

Yes, and I genuinely hope that we do.

The new Everbank is too epic to not find creative new uses for.

Does anyone doubt that the new scoreboards will attract some other significant events.  What was the economic impact of the Country Music Superfest?  Something like $23M?  The video boards pay for themselves if we can attract one more event like that.

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 29, 2014, 08:38:39 AM
We sit around on this forum and complain about the city not investing in quality of life projects and then when they try to blast them for it.

It's also worth pointing out that, in addition to being a quality of life investment, the new video boards are also a financial investment in the city. People speak of them as if they are a sunk cost, $43 million in taxpayer dollars down the drain. If they help draw a couple of big events to Jacksonville, particularly an NCAA Championship game, they'll pay for themselves.

There is already rumors that the Jags want to redo the club seats and add a canopy over the stadium. Guess who will foot the bill for most of that? I see the point of the article. When does it ever end and how much must be spent?
I also see the point that us upgrading this stadium is saving tons on demolishing and building a new one ( AKA Atlanta Falcons) . To me, it is a case of cities  trying to keep up with the Jones'. Literally.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
But you also have to admit that it would be nice if the City showed the same (and even more responsible) judgement and speed when it comes to the other things that need to be done to improve our quality of life.

Absolutely.

It's amazing how quickly these scoreboards went from concept to execution relative something like Friendship Fountain, which went through what seemed like years of studies before any action was taken.

Quote from: MEGATRON on July 29, 2014, 09:25:50 AM
Does anyone doubt that the new scoreboards will attract some other significant events.  What was the economic impact of the Country Music Superfest?  Something like $23M?  The video boards pay for themselves if we can attract one more event like that.

We attracted that event without the new video boards, because they, uhhh, weren't unveiled yet.  Fine point, though. 

First, thank you folio. It's been so long since I read one of their articles without rolling my eyes. This was a nice piece.

I have a hard time understanding the everbank apologists.

First, the tax belongs to us. It can be used for whatever we deem to be a touristy sort of thing. It was said in a another thread that if we wanted to create the world's best library system in order bring in people from around the world to experience it...that's tourism. If we wanted to build the world's most fascinating blow up fun house...that's toursim. If we wanted to expand our park system to bring in more naturists...that's tourism.

Plus, there are other things these dollars can go to that are maybe a touristy thing...fixing beach erosion is one example.

This is an expense that all of us pay for but very few of us will actually experience. Not exactly a definition of a public good. Maybe, I can use the pool on a non-game day?

I know, we don't like to view expenses this way but I think it's time we looked at the long view of our purchases. The stadium was funded with bonds and backed up by the bed tax. As most of you know, it's like a mortgage. The cost of the scoreboard will end up being $80 to $90 million over the next 30 years. I believe it is a 30 year term.

And, this will end up being an direct expense to the city budget. The tax dollars that are now paying for the scoreboard were the funding mechanism for the maintenance, upkeep and remodeling of the stadium. I doubt, this will be the last time the stadium will need maintenance, upkeep and remodeling.

Where will that money come from now that it is set aside for the scoreboard? It will come directly from the city budget.

The bed tax is not magically free money any more than any other tax the city collects. They belong to our city not to just one facility leased by a private entity.

Right now, 2/3 of our 6 cent bed tax subsidizes Everbank.

That's not fair to every other project we could be accomplishing. 

To the person who said that the scoreboard belongs to us not the Jaguars...Do you think the Jaguars would be interested in buying the stadium? I'm going to guess probably not. Why do you think that is? Why wouldn't an NFL franchise want to own the real estate they are popularizing?

As an FYI, I don't blame Khan. I blame our city government that has continually funded the stadium to the determent of other "quality of life" projects.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 09:34:40 AM
But you also have to admit that it would be nice if the City showed the same (and even more responsible) judgement and speed when it comes to the other things that need to be done to improve our quality of life.

The boards and stadium upgrades were done quickly because Mark Lamping oversaw the construction. I'd give little credit to the city.

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM

First, the tax belongs to us. It can be used for whatever we deem to be a touristy sort of thing. It was said in a another thread that if we wanted to create the world's best library system in order bring in people from around the world to experience it...that's tourism. If we wanted to build the world's most fascinating blow up fun house...that's toursim. If we wanted to expand our park system to bring in more naturists...that's tourism.

Plus, there are other things these dollars can go to that are maybe a touristy thing...fixing beach erosion is one example.

But much like the Folio, you are just listing out unrealistic alternatives. It makes it difficult to take their article seriously.

This site is getting as worse as the TU site, and getting to a point where I don't even want to come on to this site no more.

The Folio article would be more impactful if they listed alternatives that the bed tax could have legally been used for.  I know the convention center is one. There are a few others, such as mass transit, that could be argued for improving tourism. Then there are many that the money couldn't be used for anyway without a change in Tallahassee.

Quote from: Rynjny on July 29, 2014, 10:18:23 AM
This site is getting as worse as the TU site, and getting to a point where I don't even want to come on to this site no more.

EXACTLY!

Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2014, 10:21:50 AM
The Folio article would be more impactful if they listed alternatives that the bed tax could have legally been used for.  I know the convention center is one. There are a few others, such as mass transit, that could be argued for improving tourism. Then there are many that the money couldn't be used for anyway without a change in Tallahassee.

A lot of folks don't seem to understand this.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2014, 10:21:50 AM
The Folio article would be more impactful if they listed alternatives that the bed tax could have legally been used for.  I know the convention center is one. There are a few others, such as mass transit, that could be argued for improving tourism. Then there are many that the money couldn't be used for anyway without a change in Tallahassee.

The bed tax is Ordinance 1993-2135

I recalled legislation for Super Bowl XXXIX and the paying of the Super Bowl Host Committee's bills and thought that the bed tax was used for that. It wasn't.

The legislation that reimbursed the Super Bowl Host Committee's $1,198,000 party bill came from the CONVENTION Dev. TRUST fund of which $599,000 was used. And the other $599,000 came from the Sports Complex TRUST fund.

Comfort for taxpayers is to know that this expenditure comes from TRUST funds.

I'm All In.

I don't understand all the angst that the article has caused.  Bill had it nailed pretty much in the first comment.  Those of us who like the boards will always find a way to justify and build value in their purchase.  Those who are against it will always find a way to justify the waste and find alternative uses for the money.

Opine away.

"I like them.  They're kinda neat." ;)

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 10:49:21 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on July 29, 2014, 10:42:54 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 29, 2014, 10:21:50 AM
The Folio article would be more impactful if they listed alternatives that the bed tax could have legally been used for.  I know the convention center is one. There are a few others, such as mass transit, that could be argued for improving tourism. Then there are many that the money couldn't be used for anyway without a change in Tallahassee.

A lot of folks don't seem to understand this.

they are generally the ones with experience on how the council actually works.

What are you trying to say

Quote from: InnerCityPressure on July 29, 2014, 09:50:57 AM

Quote from: MEGATRON on July 29, 2014, 09:25:50 AM
Does anyone doubt that the new scoreboards will attract some other significant events.  What was the economic impact of the Country Music Superfest?  Something like $23M?  The video boards pay for themselves if we can attract one more event like that.

We attracted that event without the new video boards, because they, uhhh, weren't unveiled yet.  Fine point, though.

No doubt.  I referenced that event as an example of the economic impact of similar events. 

Quote from: copperfiend on July 29, 2014, 10:17:35 AM

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM

First, the tax belongs to us. It can be used for whatever we deem to be a touristy sort of thing. It was said in a another thread that if we wanted to create the world's best library system in order bring in people from around the world to experience it...that's tourism. If we wanted to build the world's most fascinating blow up fun house...that's toursim. If we wanted to expand our park system to bring in more naturists...that's tourism.

Plus, there are other things these dollars can go to that are maybe a touristy thing...fixing beach erosion is one example.

But much like the Folio, you are just listing out unrealistic alternatives. It makes it difficult to take their article seriously.

No, I'm making a larger point. The bed tax dollars do not have to go to the stadium as many seem to think. You know, we could just save the money. Is that an unrealistic alternative?

Start of the second paragraph:

QuoteThe reality is more nuanced, of course

But they didn't want to get into it because it would undermine much of the argument they are trying to make?

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 11:01:51 AM
someone, somewhere in the process must have said something on the radio about how the city is legally bound to pay for the stadium only (or something along those lines).

The council can change whatever it likes, whenever it likes to, if it has the mind to do so.  All it takes is a minor amendment to be inserted into the omnibus at the legislative session and then voila.  Consider the self changed charter of the JEA.  Was it 'illegal' for them to consider the bondholders over the public?  Yes.  So they changed it in a single session.

But in this case, anything as nebulous as the part already quoted can be used to redefine pretty much any project you want.

Come to Jacksonville!  Home of the cleanest drainage ditches in the Southeast!

Come to Jacksonvillle, We made mayonaisse mandatory on all sandwiches!

Come to Jacksonville!  See our amazing Cops on Bikes!

Come to Jacksonvillle, Its where our bus shelters ARE our arts program!

Come to Jacksonville.  We have an emerald Necklace.

;)

You don't have to look any further than Denise Lee using money legally allocated to rebuild the urban core to demolish the urban core instead by calling it ' human blight removal'.

Keep in mind that I don't have any problem with the money being spent on this.  A significant number of people in this town genuinely enjoy this recreational thing.  Its not my cup of tea, but i probably like a bunch of things paid for with our public money that they don't enjoy. 

I'm not sure if the council can "just" modify the bed tax to spend money on whatever they want. Such a process could become a political landmine that those sitting on our council would be unwilling to partake in.   For example, I seriously doubt spending tourism tax money to keep local libraries open or creating local jobs is going to fly over well with the stakeholders contributing to the tax.  However, there are a few things on the Folio's list that would benefit tourism. 

Cleaning creeks, increased police bike patrol, improve mass transit, extend the riverwalk, build the Emerald Necklace, etc. are all things that improve the quality of life for residents and tourist. Unfortunately, they weren't up on the table for consideration. Probably, because we're still a place that does not have a unified vision of what it wants to be and with a plan to incrementally invest public tax dollars on how to get there. This is the primary reason our riverfront is the way it is today after +50 years of "revitalization", while others in places like Baltimore and Chattanooga have greatly advanced in significantly less time.

With that in mind, it's hard to blame Khan and the Jags for our incompetence.

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 11:08:17 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on July 29, 2014, 10:17:35 AM

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM

First, the tax belongs to us. It can be used for whatever we deem to be a touristy sort of thing. It was said in a another thread that if we wanted to create the world's best library system in order bring in people from around the world to experience it...that's tourism. If we wanted to build the world's most fascinating blow up fun house...that's toursim. If we wanted to expand our park system to bring in more naturists...that's tourism.

Plus, there are other things these dollars can go to that are maybe a touristy thing...fixing beach erosion is one example.

But much like the Folio, you are just listing out unrealistic alternatives. It makes it difficult to take their article seriously.

No, I'm making a larger point. The bed tax dollars do not have to go to the stadium as many seem to think. You know, we could just save the money. Is that an unrealistic alternative?

Probably. Isn't the idea of a bed tax to reinvest such dollars in a manner that brings more tourism oriented economic development?  While the video boards are nice, there is also a strong argument that they may not be the best use of $43 million in bed tax dollars. However, burying it in a hole kind of defeats the general purpose for there even being a tax.

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM
As an FYI, I don't blame Khan. I blame our city government that has continually funded the stadium to the determent of other "quality of life" projects.

Totally understand this opinion, but I would also argue that Jacksonville should prioritize taking care of its existing assets before moving forward with other projects.

Barrs Field/Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/Jacksonville Municipal Stadium/Alltel/Everbank -- whatever you want to call it -- has arguably been Jacksonville's crown jewel for over a century, and a major source of our city's pride and joy. Our continual improvements of the facility have brought Jacksonville widespread recognition and publicity that we otherwise would never have gotten. Because of the money we pumped into our stadium, we became the home of the Florida/Georgia game, we pioneered the sixth oldest bowl game in college football, we hosted Joe Namath and the AFL All-Stars for two consecutive years, when Beatles Mania hit after Ed Sullivan we got the band's only Florida tour date, we got Michael Jackson for three nights, we were the only Florida city to get the Rolling Stones' biggest tour, we received WFL and USFL franchises, we became an NFL city, we hosted the ACC Championship, hell - we got a SUPER BOWL. The recent improvements to Everbank have once-again put our stadium at the very top of the heap, and have positioned Jacksonville to be an event-leader for years to come.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 11:22:03 AM
I don't blame Kahn.  And I don't dislike the boards.  They are pretty cool, and a pretty forward thinking investment in my opinion.  I wish we had another 12 projects like this going on.

Definitely agree with you here.

Quote from: KenFSU on July 29, 2014, 11:22:26 AM

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM
As an FYI, I don't blame Khan. I blame our city government that has continually funded the stadium to the determent of other "quality of life" projects.

Totally understand this opinion, but I would also argue that Jacksonville should prioritize taking care of its existing assets before moving forward with other projects.

Barrs Field/Fairfield Stadium/Gator Bowl/Jacksonville Municipal Stadium/Alltel/Everbank -- whatever you want to call it -- has arguably been Jacksonville's crown jewel for over a century, and a major source of our city's pride and joy. Our continual improvements of the facility have brought Jacksonville widespread recognition and publicity that we otherwise would never have gotten. Because of the money we pumped into our stadium, we became the home of the Florida/Georgia game, we pioneered the sixth oldest bowl game in college football, we hosted Joe Namath and the AFL All-Stars for two consecutive years, when Beatles Mania hit after Ed Sullivan we got the band's only Florida tour date, we got Michael Jackson for three nights, we were the only Florida city to get the Rolling Stones' biggest tour, we received WFL and USFL franchises, we became an NFL city, we hosted the ACC Championship, hell - we got a SUPER BOWL. The recent improvements to Everbank have once-again put our stadium at the very top of the heap, and have positioned Jacksonville to be an event-leader for years to come.

Everbank Field is a huge asset to this city.  If anything, we should be trying to better benefit from the events it draws by better integrating other activities, transit connectivity, and infill around it.

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 11:08:17 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on July 29, 2014, 10:17:35 AM

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 10:03:25 AM

First, the tax belongs to us. It can be used for whatever we deem to be a touristy sort of thing. It was said in a another thread that if we wanted to create the world's best library system in order bring in people from around the world to experience it...that's tourism. If we wanted to build the world's most fascinating blow up fun house...that's toursim. If we wanted to expand our park system to bring in more naturists...that's tourism.

Plus, there are other things these dollars can go to that are maybe a touristy thing...fixing beach erosion is one example.

But much like the Folio, you are just listing out unrealistic alternatives. It makes it difficult to take their article seriously.

No, I'm making a larger point. The bed tax dollars do not have to go to the stadium as many seem to think. You know, we could just save the money. Is that an unrealistic alternative?

I have not seen one person say the money "had to" go to the stadium. But it is stated quite clearly that is must be used in some tourist-type fashion.

So hiring 100 teachers would not be possible. The Folio uses that as a red herring and it makes their argument worthless.

And is simply saving the money an unrealistic alternative? Yes. Yes it is.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 11:20:41 AM
meh.  unless metrojacksonville or a lobbyist raised a squawk about it, literally no one would notice.  Bet you that the vast majority of the people on this board didn't even knew the wording of the ordinance until this morning.  And this is a pretty savvy lot.

It was brought up alot in the past year. Because alot of local folks (and national pundits) made mention of the city spending "taxpayer money" on scoreboards instead of spending it on police or teachers or some other headline grabbibng statement.

I agree Stephen, it shouldn't have to be either or! Ive already had 2 discussions on my FB page this morning that pretty much despise the Jags and Kahn for this because they have the mentality that the money is being "taken" away from more important issues. I for one think that any investment in our  cultural and sports venues is money well spent, but we do need to find a way to fund other important things as well.

Great list, but should be criticizing Khan?  Folio should follow with an article criticizing Maxwell house, Everbank, Tony Sleiman, Southside developers, our courthouse, and then on and on and on.  Maybe a piece on 'Advanced Capitalism and the Handout' would be better.  I think this is one of many things on the list that should be considered.  The problem is the weak leadership of our politicians (including both parties).  Khan is the perfect scapegoat because he is their imagined hero that comes into town to save the city.  Khan is not shrewd, he is just your typical contemporary businessman.  Blame our city leaders for not taking up a leadership role and having the courage to face at least 2 on this list. Our politicians are not standing behind taking tax payer money for scoreboards, Khan is and they are standing behind him! 

Again, good list, but article is shortsighted in my humble opinion. 

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 29, 2014, 12:20:11 PM
Great list, but should be criticizing Khan?  Folio should follow with an article criticizing Maxwell house, Everbank, Tony Sleiman, Southside developers, our courthouse, and then on and on and on.  Maybe a piece on 'Advanced Capitalism and the Handout' would be better.  I think this is one of many things on the list that should be considered.  The problem is the weak leadership of our politicians (including both parties).  Khan is the perfect scapegoat because he is their imagined hero that comes into town to save the city.  Khan is not shrewd, he is just your typical contemporary businessman.  Blame our city leaders for not taking up a leadership role and having the courage to face at least 2 on this list. Our politicians are not standing behind taking tax payer money for scoreboards, Khan is and they are standing behind him! 

Again, good list, but article is shortsighted in my humble opinion.

I agree. Khan has much of nothing to do with this to be honest. Its the city leaders.

What's that old saying about crying over spilt milk? One thing I have to give the Folio credit for is hopefully sparking someone to say "what do we have to do to put 100 more teachers in schools", "how can we set aside money to rebuild the emerald necklace", etc. I think that's the point we should be taking away here.

I too backed away for a few months from MJ, I went through chemo and radiation treatments for stage 3 pancreatic cancer and then when I returned to Jax I had the opportunity to meet a few regular posters. A lot of you are amazing people, but there was one that was completely not how they present themselves to be here. Like the T-U forums (trust me, MJ has several pegs to fall before being equal) people can hide in anonymity and some just like to debate. All that aside, this article and thread brings me back to what I liked when I first started reading MJ 5 yrs and when I started posting 4 yrs ago. That's that we all love this city, we all want to see it do well and prosper, and together we all have ideas that can make it so. One bad apple spoils the bunch, so it's a good thing we aren't apples. Thanks to the MJ moderators and regular posters who make us think, question and comment on our community daily.

^ Wow, truly sorry to hear what you are going through, but great to see you back!

Glad your back and feeling better. 

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 29, 2014, 08:38:39 AM
We sit around on this forum and complain about the city not investing in quality of life projects and then when they try to blast them for it. 

Is it just that this qol investment doesn't pass a snob test I don't know about.

Perhaps too many suburban people will like this so we have to reject it.

So no wish list about the money spent on the collins road off ramp or outer belt way from folio but hey never miss a chance to vilify a billionaire no matter how he has conducted himself.  Having the money makes him evil enough....

It is sad that this article seems to pass the smell test from some posters I usually think are bright.

+ 1,000

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 29, 2014, 08:38:39 AM
We sit around on this forum and complain about the city not investing in quality of life projects and then when they try to blast them for it. 

Is it just that this qol investment doesn't pass a snob test I don't know about.

Perhaps too many suburban people will like this so we have to reject it.

So no wish list about the money spent on the collins road off ramp or outer belt way from folio but hey never miss a chance to vilify a billionaire no matter how he has conducted himself.  Having the money makes him evil enough....

It is sad that this article seems to pass the smell test from some posters I usually think are bright.

You forgot to mention the courthouse too, but I guess they're only going after the billionaire.

Quote from: pierre on July 29, 2014, 08:55:24 AM

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:49:42 AM

Quote from: pierre on July 29, 2014, 08:48:06 AM

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:31:57 AM
To be accurate, the bed tax can be used for whatever purposes the city votes for it.  Its for the promotion of tourism, not a piggy bank for any of the sports teams.

It certainly cannot be used for the majority of things listed by the Folio.

hmm.  i don't have a dog in this show, but which part of the ordinance says that?

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0200-0299/0212/Sections/0212.0305.html

Quote3. All consolidated county convention development moneys, including any interest accrued thereon, received by a county imposing the levy must be used in any of the following manners, although the utilization authorized in sub-subparagraph a. shall apply only to municipalities with a population of 10,000 or more:
a. To promote and advertise tourism;
b. To extend, enlarge, and improve existing publicly owned convention centers in the county;
c. To construct a multipurpose convention/coliseum/exhibition center or the maximum components thereof as funds permit in the county; and
d. To acquire, construct, extend, enlarge, remodel, repair, improve, or maintain one or more convention centers, stadiums, exhibition halls, arenas, coliseums, or auditoriums.

http://www.coj.net/city-council/tourist-development-council.aspx

"Of the six percent bed tax collected, two percent is deposited into the Sports Complex Capital Maintenance Enterprise Fund as authorized by Ordinance "2009-817-E" (http://cityclts.coj.net/docs/2009-0817/Current%20Text/2009-817-E.doc), two percent is dedicated to paying debt service on the bonds issued to construct Alltel Stadium, and the other two percent is dedicated to tourism promotion. The TDC uses 70 percent of the money dedicated to tourism promotion to fund a contract with Visit Jacksonville to advertise and market the city and its attractions via newspaper and magazine ads, publication of informative magazines and brochures, targeted marketing to travel writers and tour operators, and various other means of spreading the word about Jacksonville as an attractive destination for visitors."

Since opinions are like a.. bellybuttons, everyone has one.  Here is my opinion on this article.

Full disclosure - I am a Jags season ticket holder, I love the new video boards, and I'm glad they are there.

1.) Restore Jacksonville's 50 dirtiest creeks. Use the $43 million to remove 16,000 leaky septic tanks. Screw that, get the property owner to remove that leaky septic tank!  Is it not the responsibility of the homeowner to maintain the septic tanks on their property?  Why is it the city's responsibility to remove them?   I have a septic tank, I pay to have it inspected, pumped, and provide necessary maintenance.  Should I be sending these bills to the city for reimbursement?

2.) Increase police bike patrols.  That would be nice but given how Jacksonville is the 5th worst city in the United States for bicyclists (http://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/archives/city-of-jacksonville-bicycling-conditions), I'd be afraid the insurance would be cost prohibitive.  I haven't had any crime issues when I go to Five Points, San Marco, or King Street.  Are you telling me I should I be worried when I go there now?

3.) Install 13,000 surveillance cameras. </start sarcasm font> I'd rather not have someone watch me scratch my butt as I'm walking to my car, unless the cameras are in Five Points, San Marco, or King Street area.  I hear they are dangerous places since there are no "Cops on Bikes" in those areas.  See item #2.</end sarcasm font>

4.) Build a light rail line to the Northside.  What's in Northside that would make me want to go there?  JTA doesn't have bus service? Are the buses so full that they need a train?

5.) Extend the Riverwalks. The article even says that there isn't enough land to extend the Riverwalks 3.5 miles.  You can't even tie up your boat to the existing riverwalks, why extend them if I can't park my boat and get out walk around.

6.) Create a night trolley to connect urban core neighborhoods on weekends.  Yes because drunks on a trolly are so much fun!  Really? I don't ever remember going to San Marco for dinner then driving to Five Points for drinks and then drive to Springfield for god knows what?

7.) Restore the Emerald Necklace. I'd be for this if it was something from Jacksonville's past but the city doesn't keep up it's existing parks why add an additional 8 miles of parks around downtown.

8.) Build 3,308 covered bus shelters.  Umbrellas / Ponchos are cheaper by the dozen.

9.) Put a down payment on an aquarium.   Why can't the really Wealthy peeps here in Jax fund the whole aquarium? That's what Bernard Marcus did for Atlanta - donated $250 million.  Corporations ponied up an additional $40 million and The Coca-Cola Company donated the land.  So come on rich people, donate and make this thing happen!

10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Ok, I could only do 10.  I admit my responses are ridiculous but so was the article.  The bottom line is none of my tax dollars went to pay for those video boards.  I don't stay at a hotel in Jacksonville, I stay at home.  Where I pay property taxes for other things.  Which is a totally different thread all together.  So stop complaining about the video boards. What you should be complaining about are those freakin' water taxi boats that the city paid for and aren't using.  Now THAT was a waste of mine and your tax dollars.

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
Since opinions are like a.. bellybuttons, everyone has one.  Here is my opinion on this article.

Full disclosure - I am a Jags season ticket holder, I love the new video boards, and I'm glad they are there.

1.) Restore Jacksonville's 50 dirtiest creeks. Use the $43 million to remove 16,000 leaky septic tanks. Screw that, get the property owner to remove that leaky septic tank!  Is it not the responsibility of the homeowner to maintain the septic tanks on their property?  Why is it the city's responsibility to remove them?   I have a septic tank, I pay to have it inspected, pumped, and provide necessary maintenance.  Should I be sending these bills to the city for reimbursement?

2.) Increase police bike patrols.  That would be nice but given how Jacksonville is the 5th worst city in the United States for bicyclists (http://floridacyclinglaw.com/blog/archives/city-of-jacksonville-bicycling-conditions), I'd be afraid the insurance would be cost prohibitive.  I haven't had any crime issues when I go to Five Points, San Marco, or King Street.  Are you telling me I should I be worried when I go there now?

3.) Install 13,000 surveillance cameras. </start sarcasm font> I'd rather not have someone watch me scratch my butt as I'm walking to my car, unless the cameras are in Five Points, San Marco, or King Street area.  I hear they are dangerous places since there are no "Cops on Bikes" in those areas.  See item #2.</end sarcasm font>

4.) Build a light rail line to the Northside.  What's in Northside that would make me want to go there?  JTA doesn't have bus service? Are the buses so full that they need a train?

5.) Extend the Riverwalks. The article even says that there isn't enough land to extend the Riverwalks 3.5 miles.  You can't even tie up your boat to the existing riverwalks, why extend them if I can't park my boat and get out walk around.

6.) Create a night trolley to connect urban core neighborhoods on weekends.  Yes because drunks on a trolly are so much fun!  Really? I don't ever remember going to San Marco for dinner then driving to Five Points for drinks and then drive to Springfield for god knows what?

7.) Restore the Emerald Necklace. I'd be for this if it was something from Jacksonville's past but the city doesn't keep up it's existing parks why add an additional 8 miles of parks around downtown.

8.) Build 3,308 covered bus shelters.  Umbrellas / Ponchos are cheaper by the dozen.

9.) Put a down payment on an aquarium.   Why can't the really Wealthy peeps here in Jax fund the whole aquarium? That's what Bernard Marcus did for Atlanta - donated $250 million.  Corporations ponied up an additional $40 million and The Coca-Cola Company donated the land.  So come on rich people, donate and make this thing happen!

10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Ok, I could only do 10.  I admit my responses are ridiculous but so was the article.  The bottom line is none of my tax dollars went to pay for those video boards.  I don't stay at a hotel in Jacksonville, I stay at home.  Where I pay property taxes for other things.  Which is a totally different thread all together.  So stop complaining about the video boards. What you should be complaining about are those freakin' water taxi boats that the city paid for and aren't using.  Now THAT was a waste of mine and your tax dollars.

BRAVO! +1000000000

I don't understand why Folio waited until after the unveiling of the scoreboards to put this article out. We all knew this was definitely going to happen. At this point it's like bitching about something that you aren't going to change. I don't think there's a 90 day return policy on the scoreboards. Maybe the upgrades to Everbank can steal some of the amazing shows that always seem to go to St. Augustine this days instead of Jax. I'm sure St. Augustine didn't NEED to spend the 8.7 million dollars to renovate the amphitheatre, but it definitely seems that they are reaping the benefits of the luxury of having such a nice venue.

^ completely agree there was no constructive purpose for this article whatsoever.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
so did the tax money magically appear?  It grew on trees?

Isn't that where all tax money comes from?  You know the tax money that subsidies mass transit and the arts.

Oops actually it is not the same tree my bad.  As it is my money I pay in taxes that support these items. Since I don't stay in hotels in Duval County none of my money went toward the bed tax.

Quote from: comncense on July 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM
I don't understand why Folio waited until after the unveiling of the scoreboards to put this article out. We all knew this was definitely going to happen. At this point it's like bitching about something that you aren't going to change. I don't think there's a 90 day return policy on the scoreboards. Maybe the upgrades to Everbank can steal some of the amazing shows that always seem to go to St. Augustine this days instead of Jax. I'm sure St. Augustine didn't NEED to spend the 8.7 million dollars to renovate the amphitheatre, but it definitely seems that they are reaping the benefits of the luxury of having such a nice venue.

It's like bitching to consider how city money is spent? If we did more of this bitching we'd probably have a very healthy city.

Quote from: comncense on July 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM
I don't understand why Folio waited until after the unveiling of the scoreboards to put this article out. We all knew this was definitely going to happen. At this point it's like bitching about something that you aren't going to change. I don't think there's a 90 day return policy on the scoreboards. Maybe the upgrades to Everbank can steal some of the amazing shows that always seem to go to St. Augustine this days instead of Jax. I'm sure St. Augustine didn't NEED to spend the 8.7 million dollars to renovate the amphitheatre, but it definitely seems that they are reaping the benefits of the luxury of having such a nice venue.

your problem is trying to understand Folio.

Quote from: MEGATRON on July 29, 2014, 09:11:04 PM

Quote from: comncense on July 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM
I don't understand why Folio waited until after the unveiling of the scoreboards to put this article out. We all knew this was definitely going to happen. At this point it's like bitching about something that you aren't going to change. I don't think there's a 90 day return policy on the scoreboards. Maybe the upgrades to Everbank can steal some of the amazing shows that always seem to go to St. Augustine this days instead of Jax. I'm sure St. Augustine didn't NEED to spend the 8.7 million dollars to renovate the amphitheatre, but it definitely seems that they are reaping the benefits of the luxury of having such a nice venue.

your problem is trying to understand Folio.

Or actually reading Folio.

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM

7.) Restore the Emerald Necklace. I'd be for this if it was something from Jacksonville's past but the city doesn't keep up it's existing parks why add an additional 8 miles of parks around downtown.

I don't have a dog in this fight but I do want to correct history here.  Isn't the Emerald Necklace essentially turning Hogans and McCoys Creek into useable green linear green space and clean waterways that are tied together with the riverwalk?  Both of these spaces where originally grand urban parks from the City Beautiful movement that have been ignored by the city for so long, we've forgotten they actually existed.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/568924520_AuRCn-M.jpg)

My metrojacksonville.com/history/ infomercial is over. We now continue with regularly scheduled programming on the validity of having the world's largest video boards in Everbank Field.... ;D

Quote from: TheCat on July 29, 2014, 09:06:44 PM

Quote from: comncense on July 29, 2014, 07:50:31 PM
I don't understand why Folio waited until after the unveiling of the scoreboards to put this article out. We all knew this was definitely going to happen. At this point it's like bitching about something that you aren't going to change. I don't think there's a 90 day return policy on the scoreboards. Maybe the upgrades to Everbank can steal some of the amazing shows that always seem to go to St. Augustine this days instead of Jax. I'm sure St. Augustine didn't NEED to spend the 8.7 million dollars to renovate the amphitheatre, but it definitely seems that they are reaping the benefits of the luxury of having such a nice venue.

It's like bitching to consider how city money is spent? If we did more of this bitching we'd probably have a very healthy city.

No that solves nothing, if Folio wanted to advocate for how this money should have been spent they should have down so when the correct tense was "how this money will be spent".

This was just a lazy hack job trying to poop on the big reveal's parade.

Quote from: stephendare on July 29, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
so did the tax money magically appear?  It grew on trees?

Isn't that where it all comes from

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Interesting....the video boards will get seen directly by about 800,000 people in 2014....meanwhile the Skyway will directly serve over 1 million riders in 2014....yet one is a good use of $40 million and the other is a waste.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2014, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Interesting....the video boards will get seen directly by about 800,000 people in 2014....meanwhile the Skyway will directly serve over 1 million riders in 2014....yet one is a good use of $40 million and the other is a waste.

1 mm seriously? get to 10k and then we can discuss

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2014, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Interesting....the video boards will get seen directly by about 800,000 people in 2014....meanwhile the Skyway will directly serve over 1 million riders in 2014....yet one is a good use of $40 million and the other is a waste.

the skyway riderside is 1 million people?  Is that people that actually rode it, from what i can tell thats an impossible number to find.  Or is that the theortical number that could have rode it?  Just because I looked at that outdated monstrosity for years back in the late 90's doesnt mean I was served by it.

Yes, the skyway gets over 1 million riders annually. After all, it averages something like 4,000 riders/day.  Add that up over 365 days and you'll pass 1 million easily.

Since they don't run weekends, more like 250 days ... but at 4,000 trips a day, that is still 1,000,000 in a year.

Who says so?  No saturdays or sundays?  can anyone actually give an accurate ridership number?  .

The Jacksonville Business Journal has a different take on this matter:

QuoteEditor's Notebook: Fire up those scoreboards, fire up a city

Ok, I admit it, I was wrong.

I've never been a fan of the city kicking in $43 million to help build the world's biggest video boards and swimming pools at EverBank Field. In the long list of upgrades that the city could spend $43 million for, such frivolities were not high on my list.

Better schools, a cleaner river, upgraded public parks and libraries – these were the types of needs I thought had higher value.

Sexy? Not really. Of use to the people of Jacksonville? Absolutely.

But let's shed the moral compass argument for a minute.

Are people excited about the scoreboards that debuted Saturday night at the stadium? Heck, yeah. Folks at my church were buzzing Sunday morning, and it wasn't over the sermon (and it was a better than average sermon).

Does Jacksonville need to feel better about itself? Yes, it does.

Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2014/07/editors-notebookfire-up-those-scoreboards-fire-up.html

Quote from: civil42806 on July 30, 2014, 07:01:55 AM
Who says so?  No saturdays or sundays?  can anyone actually give an accurate ridership number?  .

Even though you don't have to pay you still have to walk through a turnstile. 

Quote from: bill on July 29, 2014, 10:58:37 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2014, 10:21:37 PM

Quote from: Buforddawg on July 29, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
10.) Extend the Skyway. $40 million per mile?  Yeah, follow that yellow brick road.  Will it run on the weekends?  Will it be free or do we have to pay?  If we pay, will the turnstiles work?  Will there be a JTA person working the booth to make change or open the gate if it's broken?  Will homeless sit and ride it all day long to beat the heat?

Interesting....the video boards will get seen directly by about 800,000 people in 2014....meanwhile the Skyway will directly serve over 1 million riders in 2014....yet one is a good use of $40 million and the other is a waste.

1 mm seriously? get to 10k and then we can discuss

how about we discuss the 90,000 that rode during the 5-days of One Spark alone

Why even have this discussion? The scoreboards were paid for with some of Khan's money and BED TAX money. People who came to Jacksonville for vacations, business and conventions who pay 6 percent on top of the state sales tax on their hotel room charges covered this. Furthermore, under the law, the money from bed tax may not be used to fund, pensions, police and fire or libraries.

I think people think it is about the signs because Folio said here is what we could do instead of the signs.

If they didn't want to poo poo the idea of the signs they might have said here are some things we could also do for that type of money, not tied those suggestions to the signs at all, not run the article the second everyones Facebook was full of posts excited about the signs, taken the angle that look we can do this level of project here are some more or at least not waited for the die to be cast to start their complaining.

NO just a lazy hack not intended to spark anything. No voice just a hit job.

Quote from: stephendare on July 30, 2014, 09:42:11 AM
The point of the discussion is that we seem to find funding sources for what we want, as a city.

And yet we aren't funding what we need.

Its not about the sign.  Im not sure why people keep thinking that the folio article is about that.

Stephen, of course the real issue is finding the funding, but Folio used the boards as bait, and that's why people keep returning to it. Folio even admits "the reality is more nuanced," so they instead chose to take a superficial gloss on what's really a complicated issue. Naturally, people on both sides of this argument are responding in kind.

Epic photo:

https://twitter.com/ESPNNFL/status/494842946785910784

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bt4JCYzIYAEj2AY.png)

I can't help it, I love this guy.

And I was EXTREMELY disappointed by that Folio piece. Shortsighted in the extreme.

There is something ironic in a magazine about an area's lifestyle and culture called "Void".

Quote from: spuwho on July 31, 2014, 10:08:43 PM
There is something ironic in a magazine about an area's lifestyle and culture called "Void".

who cares, the girls who run it are hot.

That magazine cover could not be any better.

Between the Folio Weekly article, which a friend of mine posted to FB, and this brilliant piece in CL Atlanta, also posted to FB, the South is summed up:

http://clatl.com/atlanta/atlantas-not-a-world-class-city/Content?oid=11821628

Frankly, priorities are different for people in the south, and it works now for them and it shows.  Another person recently pointed out that many northerners who move to the south are actually already relatively conservative and live in the suburbs or purple/slightly red counties outside of the northern cities.  So while lots of northerners are moving, they are the more conservative of the bunch.  Many southerners that have happily moved out of the south to northern/CA cities are likely the more liberal of the bunch.

Anyway you look at it, obviously there were technicalities, but as Stephen pointed out, it's not about the technicalities, it's about the fact that we used any money at all to build these stupid scoreboards when we can never seem to find any money to do what's truly important (or at least what would likely be placed higher on the importance list elsewhere).

Also, FTR, look up Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.  Those scoreboards are at least as large, so I'm not sure that Jax even has any "claims" on "world's largest scoreboards/videotrons", which is the most stupid record to hold.  So embarassing.  As if attendance will somehow skyrocket, even pulling in tourists to see this new world class example of technology.  Lol.

Quote from: simms3 on August 01, 2014, 11:26:57 AM
Also, FTR, look up Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.  Those scoreboards are at least as large, so I'm not sure that Jax even has any "claims" on "world's largest scoreboards/videotrons", which is the most stupid record to hold. 

sorry but no.  Levi's Stadium scoreboards are roughly 200' x 50'....Jax are roughly 360' x 60'

here's a good summary of video boards around the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_video_screens

QuoteAlso, FTR, look up Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.  Those scoreboards are at least as large, so I'm not sure that Jax even has any "claims" on "world's largest scoreboards/videotrons", which is the most stupid record to hold.  So embarassing.  As if attendance will somehow skyrocket, even pulling in tourists to see this new world class example of technology.  Lol.

Actually ticket sales are the best they've been in a long, long time.

Quote from: Downtown Osprey on August 01, 2014, 11:44:45 AM

QuoteAlso, FTR, look up Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.  Those scoreboards are at least as large, so I'm not sure that Jax even has any "claims" on "world's largest scoreboards/videotrons", which is the most stupid record to hold.  So embarassing.  As if attendance will somehow skyrocket, even pulling in tourists to see this new world class example of technology.  Lol.

Actually ticket sales are the best they've been in a long, long time.

Pool cabanas are on a waiting list.

Quote from: spuwho on July 31, 2014, 10:08:43 PM
There is something ironic in a magazine about an area's lifestyle and culture called "Void".

It really did not occur to me until yesterday what a terrible name it is for that kind of publication.

Quote from: funwithteeth on August 01, 2014, 12:06:41 PM

Quote from: spuwho on July 31, 2014, 10:08:43 PM
There is something ironic in a magazine about an area's lifestyle and culture called "Void".

It really did not occur to me until yesterday what a terrible name it is for that kind of publication.

It's intentional; there's a "void" in the lifestyle magazine scene that only these self-aware young trendsetters can fill.

Hopefully those self-aware young trendsetters realize those media boards are more than just stupid scoreboards.

Simms3, those boards represent layer upon layer upon layer of real confidence in this city; not just Downtown, mind you, but the entire city and region. They aren't simply scoreboards and to see them as "stupid" betrays a certain ignorance, the kind of ignorance that was in that Atlanta article. The kind that (like so much of a certain segment of Central and South Florida) not only wants Jacksonville to apologize for being Southern, but to also apologize for not being more like New York, Chicago or San Francisco.

Shad Khan owns the city because Shad Khan has shown ordinary folks in this town that he sees us, and he sees so much more potential here than he realized. More than those folks who have moved here realize and more than those folks who were born and raised here realize.

More, even, than those advisers who told him to go ahead and buy the Jaguars realized.

This feels like our time as a city simms3 and in my honest opinion we could do with a lot less of the disingenuous bitching and moaning that the Folio piece represented. Remain cognizant of the issues, sure, and work toward mitigating them, absolutely, but that piece was tone deaf and absolutely came from the wrong place.

I bought season tickets for the first time ever this year. I'll be coming over from Tallahassee. I was at that Carrie Underwood event with my older sister; she left the area (Orange Park) years ago to attend school up in the Ivy League. She retires in a matter of months and will be moving to Springfield. Like many, we were incredibly proud of our hometown as we watched that "Jacksonville In Motion" video. I don't think I've ever attended a Jacksonville event quite like it. It felt like a genuinely transformational moment, even if it doesn't result in pulling in significantly more A-list events. Maybe you had to be there; maybe you were there and just didn't get the same feeling. Whatever the case, everyone around me seemingly did.

To me, there is clearly a non-apologetic spirit growing in Jacksonville and that's a damn good thing from my perspective. I've never had a problem bragging on this city (or engaging in constructive criticism) when talking with friends and strangers, but I've noticed that quite a few folks from the area do.

Shad Khan isn't going to make everything right in Northeast Florida. But he's clearly a force for good, and he's clearly trying to prod this region forward. And guess what, simms3, he's succeeding! Stupid scoreboards and all. Because he not only gets it (the big picture), he sees it.

We may not be his cup of tea, he may genuinely prefer Chicago and London, etc., and I don't especially care what his politics are -- but the man is not condescending to us. Yes, we're providing one heck of an ego-stroke to him but he's giving something back to us in return. In the best spirit of this MetroJacksonville board, you might want to get on board. I'm anxiously waiting to see what Shad might be able to pull off with The Shipyard's property. I have a feeling it's going to be damn good.

Go Jaguars !!!

Quote from: RattlerGator on August 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM
Hopefully those self-aware young trendsetters realize those media boards are more than just stupid scoreboards.

Simms3, those boards represent layer upon layer upon layer of real confidence in this city; not just Downtown, mind you, but the entire city and region. They aren't simply scoreboards and to see them as "stupid" betrays a certain ignorance, the kind of ignorance that was in that Atlanta article. The kind that (like so much of a certain segment of Central and South Florida) not only wants Jacksonville to apologize for being Southern, but to also apologize for not being more like New York, Chicago or San Francisco.

Shad Khan owns the city because Shad Khan has shown ordinary folks in this town that he sees us, and he sees so much more potential here than he realized. More than those folks who have moved here realize and more than those folks who were born and raised here realize.

More, even, than those advisers who told him to go ahead and buy the Jaguars realized.

This feels like our time as a city simms3 and in my honest opinion we could do with a lot less of the disingenuous bitching and moaning that the Folio piece represented. Remain cognizant of the issues, sure, and work toward mitigating them, absolutely, but that piece was tone deaf and absolutely came from the wrong place.

I bought season tickets for the first time ever this year. I'll be coming over from Tallahassee. I was at that Carrie Underwood event with my older sister; she left the area (Orange Park) years ago to attend school up in the Ivy League. She retires in a matter of months and will be moving to Springfield. Like many, we were incredibly proud of our hometown as we watched that "Jacksonville In Motion" video. I don't think I've ever attended a Jacksonville event quite like it. It felt like a genuinely transformational moment, even if it doesn't result in pulling in significantly more A-list events. Maybe you had to be there; maybe you were there and just didn't get the same feeling. Whatever the case, everyone around me seemingly did.

To me, there is clearly a non-apologetic spirit growing in Jacksonville and that's a damn good thing from my perspective. I've never had a problem bragging on this city (or engaging in constructive criticism) when talking with friends and strangers, but I've noticed that quite a few folks from the area do.

Shad Khan isn't going to make everything right in Northeast Florida. But he's clearly a force for good, and he's clearly trying to prod this region forward. And guess what, simms3, he's succeeding! Stupid scoreboards and all. Because he not only gets it (the big picture), he sees it.

We may not be his cup of tea, he may genuinely prefer Chicago and London, etc., and I don't especially care what his politics are -- but the man is not condescending to us. Yes, we're providing one heck of an ego-stroke to him but he's giving something back to us in return. In the best spirit of this MetroJacksonville board, you might want to get on board. I'm anxiously waiting to see what Shad might be able to pull off with The Shipyard's property. I have a feeling it's going to be damn good.

Go Jaguars !!!

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

Quote from: RattlerGator on August 01, 2014, 01:45:51 PM
Hopefully those self-aware young trendsetters realize those media boards are more than just stupid scoreboards.

You've got the magazines confused. Folio published the "counter offer" critical of the score boards. Void, the one with the self-aware name, published the positive piece story about it featuring Khan in his Magnum PI costume.

Quote from: edjax on August 01, 2014, 01:59:01 PM

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

He really is awful.

Constantly talks shit about Jacksonville, but posts on this board often.  Maybe one day we can also offer a $97 dollar haircut so we can be as highbrow as he'd like.

Quote from: stephendare on August 01, 2014, 03:24:32 PM

Quote from: duvalbill on August 01, 2014, 02:32:15 PM

Quote from: edjax on August 01, 2014, 01:59:01 PM

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

He really is awful.

Constantly talks shit about Jacksonville, but posts on this board often.  Maybe one day we can also offer a $97 dollar haircut so we can be as highbrow as he'd like.

silly.  Its not like simms isn't telling the truth.  Just because it means that we have to work harder in order to catch up doesn't make it incorrect.

Simms gives a big dose of reality to a lot of people that simply do not know what they are talking about when they start conflating our horrible leadership and progress (suburban sprawl and more garages, but at least we try not to pay our cops, fund our libraries, or update our schools) with what other cities are doing.

I value what he has to say, even if its not very flattering.

Subjectivity is not fact.

it's about the fact that we used any money at all to build these stupid scoreboards when we can never seem to find any money to do what's truly important (or at least what would likely be placed higher on the importance list elsewhere).

The money was used for one of the purposes it was allocated for. Having a state of the art stadium, could help draw more acts which could result in a windfall for the city.  There are no assurances in this world, but the upgrades put is in play for national music acts as well as national sporting events.

Also, FTR, look up Levi's Stadium in Santa Clara.  Those scoreboards are at least as large, so I'm not sure that Jax even has any "claims" on "world's largest scoreboards/videotrons", which is the most stupid record to hold.  So embarassing.  As if attendance will somehow skyrocket, even pulling in tourists to see this new world class example of technology.  Lol.

Again, it appears that some delight in failings simply to be correct. 

I'm surprised his arm isn't constantly in a sling with the way he pats himself on the back.

Quote from: stephendare on August 01, 2014, 03:24:32 PM

Quote from: duvalbill on August 01, 2014, 02:32:15 PM

Quote from: edjax on August 01, 2014, 01:59:01 PM

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

He really is awful.

Constantly talks shit about Jacksonville, but posts on this board often.  Maybe one day we can also offer a $97 dollar haircut so we can be as highbrow as he'd like.

silly.  Its not like simms isn't telling the truth.  Just because it means that we have to work harder in order to catch up doesn't make it incorrect.

Simms gives a big dose of reality to a lot of people that simply do not know what they are talking about when they start conflating our horrible leadership and progress (suburban sprawl and more garages, but at least we try not to pay our cops, fund our libraries, or update our schools) with what other cities are doing.

I value what he has to say, even if its not very flattering.

I am sure many value his message and I do also.  However there are times where his message gets lost in his manner of conveyance.

Quote from: duvalbill on August 01, 2014, 02:32:15 PM

Quote from: edjax on August 01, 2014, 01:59:01 PM

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

He really is awful.

Constantly talks shit about Jacksonville, but posts on this board often.  Maybe one day we can also offer a $97 dollar haircut so we can be as highbrow as he'd like.

It never seems like talking shit from Simms to me. He seems very informed and just clearly states what he thinks.  I get how it can be tiresome to be compared to San Francisco over and over though.

A guy who pays that much for a haircut is just (http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-xap1/t5.0-1/50556_34634519756_1354_n.jpg)

Come on guys. You have to admit it is pretty impressive to tell everyone you can afford to pay that much for a a haircut! So he has pretty hair and $$$. 

I'm no longer reading Folio again. I'm using EU and others for a decent read.

Quote from: duvalbill on August 01, 2014, 02:32:15 PM

Quote from: edjax on August 01, 2014, 01:59:01 PM

+1000

And never expect Simms3 to say much of anything positive about the hometown he left.  And if you see other threads he is the expert on all things.  Jax was just too much of a challenge for him I guess.

He really is awful.

Constantly talks shit about Jacksonville, but posts on this board often.  Maybe one day we can also offer a $97 dollar haircut so we can be as highbrow as he'd like.

+100

Quote from: funwithteeth on August 01, 2014, 12:06:41 PM

Quote from: spuwho on July 31, 2014, 10:08:43 PM
There is something ironic in a magazine about an area's lifestyle and culture called "Void".

It really did not occur to me until yesterday what a terrible name it is for that kind of publication.

I thought you would catch that before I did. I even was going to mention you, "where's Teeth on this?"

Wow.  Touchy feely.  I am clearly not alone in my sentiments, or my delivery, if someone is writing this Folio Weekly article or that Creative Loafing article to be published for all to read.  The fact that so many here have turned out to disagree with the article and hate on people who agree with it affirms my own personal beliefs, opinions, and feelings toward certain matters (so call me a snob).

Also, for those who criticize the fact that I referenced what I pay for a haircut, IN ANOTHER THREAD, to point out that things are inherently more expensive in cities with high rents (i.e. food in NYC because people have to be PAID to afford to be within commuting distance) need to LEARN:

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/02/28/what-america-pays-for-a-haircut

SF averages $49 for men's and $73 for women's haircuts in the city in 2013.  2014 is likely higher, I live closer into the city than most, and I am a young professional (who happens to have very difficult, fine straight hair and cowlicks).  Boo ya BITCHES.  Just because it's acceptable to go to some shit barber or Supercuts in Jax and pay $10 doesn't mean that's even a possibility in some other places, or that it ends up well for those who care about getting a decent cut and looking good.

And so I was wrong about Levi's Stadium.  It's only the 5th largest scoreboard for football stadiums, Everbank being the largest.  Thanks for clarifying that very important piece of information.  I am glad the city found a way to support Khan to have the largest scoreboards in the NFL.  That's certainly a benefit to citizens and makes the city a better place.

Have a great weekend, ya'll!

I like the screen at the stadium it brightens up the sky at night lol (I hate football) My lady cuts my hair so I don't have to waste money at a salon/barber. I think I have a pretty snazzy hipster hair cut going on lol

It's y'all, simms. Y'all.

More on scoreboards...Bloomberg article. We're going national and it's for all of the right reasons.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/taxpayers-fund-stadium-screens-as-jacksonville-s-pensions-suffer.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-28/taxpayers-fund-stadium-screens-as-jacksonville-s-pensions-suffer.html)

Saw that one last week. Pretty sloppy article that barely about Jacksonville and the scoreboards. Also never once mentions the upgrades are paid for by a bed tax that could not be used for pensions.

Quote from: pierre on August 04, 2014, 12:55:03 PM
Saw that one last week. Pretty sloppy article that barely about Jacksonville and the scoreboards. Also never once mentions the upgrades are paid for by a bed tax that could not be used for pensions.

Actually, it does discuss the legal separation of tax uses under the section "Targeted Tax". Overall, it's a pretty thorough article.

Thats what I was thinking.  Not to be the idiot here, but wasn't the scoreboards paid for by the bed tax, which has no possible way to help pay down the pension fund?  I do feel a streetcar to the stadium would have been a better investment, but the scoreboards do fit within the purpose of the bed tax.  Am I wrong?  Other than firing up some right wingers, I don't think there is much truth or relevance here.

Quote from: IrvAdams on August 04, 2014, 01:17:32 PM

Quote from: pierre on August 04, 2014, 12:55:03 PM
Saw that one last week. Pretty sloppy article that barely about Jacksonville and the scoreboards. Also never once mentions the upgrades are paid for by a bed tax that could not be used for pensions.

Actually, it does discuss the legal separation of tax uses under the section "Targeted Tax". Overall, it's a pretty thorough article.

But, are they not saying that (instead of using tax dollars to pay for something important) such as the (paying down the pension), our politicians and tax payers (instead used the money for scoreboards)?  They used some of the proposed ideas for Brown's budget as proof, although none of what Brown proposes have been approved.  Is this an argument on the scoreboards or Brown's budget?  Argument seems messy. 

QuoteThats what I was thinking.  Not to be the idiot here, but wasn't the scoreboards paid for by the bed tax, which has no possible way to help pay down the pension fund?  I do feel a streetcar to the stadium would have been a better investment, but the scoreboards do fit within the purpose of the bed tax.  Am I wrong?  Other than firing up some right wingers, I don't think there is much truth or relevance here.

There is a 6 penny bed tax...4 of which are dedicated to the stadium. The most recent bond for the scoreboard was backed by 1/3 of the bed tax or two pennies, that is my understanding. Those two pennies that were used to secure the scoreboard loan were set aside to fund the maintenence and upkeep of the stadium.

I don't know the break down in dollars, as in what percentage of the 2 pennies of bed tax goes to pay back the loan but it is NOT unrealistic to assume that the city's budget will feel the impact of the scoreboard.

Those two pennies  were paying for something prior to the scoreboard, specifically the stadium (and before that the convention center). If that money is now set aside to pay for the loan for the scoreboards who will be paying for the stadium's maintence now? Generous tourists requesting to pay an additional penny?

It will come out of the city's budget, which is more versatile than a bed tax, and can certainly be used to pay pension obligations.

The article was pretty disjointed for sure a d not an easy read.  I still support the way it was used. 

(http://i.imgur.com/Zkk45EY.png)

:o

Quote from: TheCat on August 10, 2014, 08:25:52 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Zkk45EY.png)

:o

For all of what, a minute?

That was the first preseason game with the boards; Ever heard of 'working out the preliminary bugs' TheCat? Just give it up please, unless you wanna come off as very whiny...Even many people that didn't like the situation with the boards are totally over this...BTW, that's a very ironic screenname you have...

www.bigcatcountry.com/2014/8/7/5979077/19-things-we-could-have-done-instead-of-build-shad-khans-scoreboards

Quote from: pierre on August 04, 2014, 12:55:03 PM
Saw that one last week. Pretty sloppy article that barely about Jacksonville and the scoreboards. Also never once mentions the upgrades are paid for by a bed tax that could not be used for pensions.

It is a crappy article.
On top of that read some of the letters to the TU. People just hear what they want to hear and think what they want to think even when you beat the facts into their heads.
I'm pleased with how the money was spent. I know many aren't, but when bitchin' please stop referring to bad streets, no cops, no firemen whatever it is you keep yappin' about that we need ahead of giant video screens. (I'm not talking about anyone here, just many uninformed people in Jacksonville.)
There is NOTHING that will make everyone happy. So the next time there is money spent that I disagree with it will be mine turn to be unhappy. But life will go on.

I think the Jaguars are great for the city. So for me the money spent was just fine.

It's a joke that popped up on someone else's feed.

I never realized how sensitive some people are about football. It's a little unnerving. I tend to wonder now if there is a limit when those loyal to the Jacksonville Jaguars will say "you know, maybe this spending is too much."

And, thanks for letting me know that people who are oppose to the boards "are totally over this". I must have missed the e-mail newsletter. Could you have those people forward me a copy?

FYI, I never said I was against the boards but I do think it is a positive to consider where the money is coming from and how it could have been spent. If anything, we are all a bit brighter about the function of a bed tax.

Sorry, I-10. I get it. TheCat is a Jaguar.  ::). I guess I'm a bit slow...

I thought you were somehow linking cats to being whiny.

^^^So just post everything that you see on the internet, no matter if you agree with it?

In order for them to display a video across the entire screen they would need a special camera.... or stretch the crap out of a regular HD picture.  16:9 is a standard aspect ratio. What are these screens? 42:9??

Quote from: Lunican on August 11, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
In order for them to display a video across the entire screen they would need a special camera.... or stretch the crap out of a regular HD picture.  16:9 is a standard aspect ratio. What are these screens? 42:9??

~54:9

The ideal way to fill the screen with a single video image would be to crop.

Quote from: Lunican on August 11, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
In order for them to display a video across the entire screen they would need a special camera.... or stretch the crap out of a regular HD picture.  16:9 is a standard aspect ratio. What are these screens? 42:9??

I don't think that they ever intended to use the FULL screen for a single video.  It seems the main set-up is to have it 1/6 - 2/3 - 1/6 as a main display and 2 side displays.  The beauty is that they can do what they want, due to the nature of the individual boards, without losing any resolution. 

Think of a challenged call.  Instead of seeing only 1 replay, they'll have the capacity to show that same replay from 3 different angles on the same board at the same time - all in HD.  it's going to be awesome!

As stated, there just aren't many cameras capable of recording a decent video that size and shape (yet). And a cropped image would be way exaggerated size wise and therefore probably washed out looking. Just running other videos or scores, etc in the 'wings' of the boards is very useful. You do not, I repeat do not, miss anything at the game now. I feel a little bit like I'm in my living room.

Quote from: TheCat on August 10, 2014, 08:25:52 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/Zkk45EY.png)

:o

So I take it you weren't there for the actual game Friday night?  Because I saw replays of highlight plays or earlier parts of the game showing three different views, or different angles of the Roar when they were performing.  I saw the middle section used like a giant live TV screen to show what you'd be seeing at home (in case you couldn't clearly see the field, I suppose... I like watching the field) and using the sides to display score, time remaining, timeouts, stats, etc.  Even before the game started, they were showing multiple different things on the boards.

That photo was from a small window during the pre-game where they were focusing on stuff like the guys parachuting into the stadium (who you might notice in the images), or the singing of the national anthem.

Also, the money wasn't just for those scoreboards.  They also updated a lot of the video strips around the stadium (adding new ones, I'm certain), as well as adding the cabanas and pools, and I'm pretty sure the corner screens were updated (they were displaying other games during the Jags game so people could keep up with those games if they wanted, sort of like someone at home watching multiple games).

I'm actually pretty impressed with all of the upgrades they were able to do.  And photos can't do those screens justice.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 11, 2014, 07:17:52 PMI don't think that they ever intended to use the FULL screen for a single video.  It seems the main set-up is to have it 1/6 - 2/3 - 1/6 as a main display and 2 side displays.  The beauty is that they can do what they want, due to the nature of the individual boards, without losing any resolution. 

Think of a challenged call.  Instead of seeing only 1 replay, they'll have the capacity to show that same replay from 3 different angles on the same board at the same time - all in HD.  it's going to be awesome!

That's basically how they were using them.  Like on Winston Guy's return for a touchdown, they showed multiple angles of the play.  I believe they did the same for D-Rob's TD.  And also for the Roar's performances, and just showing various highlights of the game during breaks.

They're also taking advantage of it for other uses.  During parts of the game (I think after every quarter?) they were showing a studio show at the stadium where they were talking about what was going on during the game, show sideline interviews, stuff like that.  The kind of stuff you'd see on TV, but done with the Jaguars' people.  Christian Bruey and Fred Taylor for the "studio" parts, and Kavita Channe doing the sideline stuff.

From Jacksonville.com, here's some info on how the boards can be used (and we saw this live during the preseason game):

"--They can show different content on each board and each board can show three replays at a time for a total of six. They could show a highlight along with player reaction at the same time.

--Because the boards are 6 ½ times wider than they are high, the game will be shown on only 40 per cent of the boards in the middle. The "wings'' on each side will provide content from statistics to twitter comments. The 40 per cent view is still bigger than the Cowboys' boards.

--The only content that will be shown across the entire board has been custom made like showing a player holding his arms out to get the fans cheering. They have to hold their arms out straight rather than above their head so their arms aren't cut off in the video.

--Once a challenge is made and the referee goes under the hood, they can only show the TV feed that the referee sees. They can no longer show their own replays. If the Jaguars are the victim of a bad call, they can show an immediate replay to alert the Jaguars to challenge. They don't have to show a replay if it favors the visiting team. Rosen calls that home field advantage.

--They will show a virtual first down marker like they do on TV."

OH MY GOD!  Some one give that damn baby a bottle already! Haters gonna hate!  The video boards ARE there and are NOT going anywhere. So stop your damn whining.

From someone who was at the game, the boards were fantastic. I found myself watching the boards more than the field.

And to set the record straight, they did not use the video boards like 3 separate screens.  The meme that's been posted on this thread was taken during halftime.  If they had used the screens as one screen the paratroopers would have been lost in the view of the sky.  By shrinking the live shot to a smaller size it allowed the fans to focus on the paratroopers.

I have not seen that meme anywhere. Assuming that poster created it him or herself.

QuoteOH MY GOD!  Some one give that damn baby a bottle already! Haters gonna hate!  The video boards ARE there and are NOT going anywhere. So stop your damn whining.

Maybe read through this thread. The only babies and whiners are the ones calling everyone else babies and whiners.

Pierre, are you the all seeing eye of the internet? Why is google making the billions?  ::)

Quote from: Buforddawg on August 12, 2014, 09:18:27 PM
From someone who was at the game, the boards were fantastic. I found myself watching the boards more than the field.

+100

I was completely blown away! From the super clear jumbo video boards, to the surrounding ribbons boards, the four catercorner medium video boards showing the NO vs STL game, the swimming pools, to the high end sponsors like Microsoft Surface, Xfinity, and XBOX One, along with the great local sponsors (all electronic). It looks like an entirely different stadium. Our stadium is the envy of the league right now! :)

I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Good for you Simms, and I glad that you're sticking to your guns. I didn't think that you would've dramatically changed your opinion on a whim all of a sudden...

Can anyone tell me what the CoJ has spent bed tax dollars on in the past aside from the scoreboards?

^ The vast majority goes to maintaining the sports complex (33% of the bed tax) and paying interest on the bonds that financed the construction of the stadium (33%). Of that remaining third, roughly 70% goes to Visit Jacksonville, for marketing and promotion of the city. From my understanding, the rest typically goes toward staffing and administrative expenses for the Tourist Development Council, and for grants for various sporting events, festivals, and concerts that will potentially bring tourism to Jacksonville. I believe that specific examples include the Florida-Florida State baseball game, Florida-Georgia football, the Gator Bowl, the ACC Championship game, the NCAA basketball tournament, Super Bowl XXXIX, the Mega Super Giant Country Fest, etc.

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

Oh yes, I am sure he will be back in say 2 years to ask for a new stadium. Wow.  And good to see you can still make constructive comments without denigrating the people of Jax. So you once again failed that test. And I assume your family since remaining in Jax if they have are some real dupes.

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Don't most cities "squander" bed tax money on stadiums?  Including the new Santa Clara stadium?

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

This is why the 49'ers are now in Santa Clara.  They moved their headquarters there years ago and now the stadium is part of the same complex.  They are San Francisco in name only.  The Giants would have moved also but... wha?  A new stadium was built for them.  The Raiders are about to move from across the bay... and dont be surprised if the A's are next... San Jose A's anyone?

This WAS a test case... and you PASSED.  A public/private partnership that benefits more than just Khan...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 13, 2014, 12:40:55 PM

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.


Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

This is why the 49'ers are now in Santa Clara.  They moved their headquarters there years ago and now the stadium is part of the same complex.  They are San Francisco in name only.  The Giants would have moved also but... wha?  A new stadium was built for them.  The Raiders are about to move from across the bay... and dont be surprised if the A's are next... San Jose A's anyone?

This WAS a test case... and you PASSED.  A public/private partnership that benefits more than just Khan...

Actually the Giants stadium was privately built.  The city did however give them a $10 million tax abatement and also paid for $80 million in surrounding infrastructure to accommodate the new stadium.  I have read a few articles though that as the stadium ages and needs some upgrading, etc there is a good chance the taxpayers could end up paying for some of those upgrades.

Perhaps I missed the privately funded and built part but $100 million in Infrastructure is no small amount... Stadium upgrades by taxpayers?  Sounds just like EverBank to me.  But it really doesnt matter.  There are ALWAYS "other ways" to spend some chunk of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Park

Looks to me like taxpayers approved $357mil...  8)

Bridgetroll, you're implying that San Francisco is worst off as a result of the move? Are they? A move of a team doesn't immediately imply a net negative for a city does it?

If the Jaguars moved (may God  or Ron Chamblin forbid it) how would it impact our city? It could be the single worst thing to happen to us or it could free up many millions of dollars and empower other projects.

We should feel okay with discussing the cost of the stadium and the value of the Jaguars. If we're not allowed that introspection as a population let's just give up.

If it turns out that the Jaguars cost the city a whole lot more than we really get back...that's okay.  That could be an expense we all find worthy of our tax dollars. Or, vice versa, if we end up being able to evidentially see how much value a Jaguar presence and a stadium investment brings to our borders then we will all know that the costs are worth it. Plus, we'll know where the line from benefit to expense exist.

I'm just a little loss, still, at comments that say "get over it" or "stop whining". I think comments like that encourage ignorance and aren't really productive.

I don't think anyone would be upset if we did another round of investigating how the court house ended up costing Jacksonville way more than it should have.

Edited for spelling errors

You would have to ask all of the residents of SF if it is better that the Niners now reside in the south bay... not just Simms.  Simms is clearly in the "pathetic waste of money " camp.  I'm just saying no matter what the city project or spending proposal you will have people who think "X is a big waste of money"  For X substitute stadium, road, streetcar,  courthouse, convention center, aquarium, or city park.

My particular view is the boards are clearly not just for football but for ALL activities at the stadium... Major league cities have major league multi function stadiums.  Perhaps SF being the city it is... does not need a stadium like Everbank... I submit in Jacksonville it brings events and people to town who would otherwise never come to Jacksonville... which is probably a plus...

Whether the Niners decision to leave has impacted SF is irrelevant to Jax as I am going to make a wild guess that SF has a bit more to offer than Jax so a major sports team would have less of an impact in a city such as Sf in comparison to Jax.

Quote from: stephendare on August 13, 2014, 01:42:26 PM
plus San Francisco got 10 million dollars a year lease for the stadium, plus a couple of million dollars annually from the sales tax on ticket sales.

San Fran gets 10m annual in lease?  I have read the Giants pay an annual lease of $1.2m to the SF Port Commission.

Quote from: simms3 on August 13, 2014, 08:55:47 AM
I still stand by the article's intent and other people's likely similar view that no matter how awesome for Jags fans these humongous screens are and how much better they make people's daily lives, it's a fuckin' pathetic way to spend public money.

Of all the less pathetic things public money could have been spent on, even slightly more related to tourism and all, considering it was a bed tax that was just squandered.

Only in an urban oriented forum for Jacksonville people would an apparent majority of posters be ok with this.  That's only supposed to sound obviously offensive.

Judging from this whole chain of events and sentiment on these very boards, when Shad Khan comes to you all, the taxpayers in oh, 2 years or so, asking for a new stadium for only a billy, I'm sure he thinks it won't be "too" difficult to pull it out of all you dupes.  This was a test case and you failed and he passed.

You are one of my favorite posters.  You bring better info than anyone IMO short of Lakelander.  So I am inclined to forgive you on this opinion where clearly your brain crapped the bed.

Quote from: stephendare on August 13, 2014, 01:52:26 PM
I just think that the people who live here, seriously like having the team, apparently don't mind spending the money, and that it raises the quality of life for them in a very very meaningful way.

If that is true, why attack the thing that people really like about their city, instead of attacking the do nothings who refuse to also fund the things that the city needs?

Its like beating up your more attractive cousin because your grandfather likes them better.

You know stephen, I have strayed away from commenting on this thread because of these comments are ridiculos, but what you just stated is EXACTLY what Ive been thinking. Its like were beating up Shad Khan and the Jags because our city leadership are failures. That doesnt make sense. This is a Jacksonville problem, not a Shad Khan or Jaguar problem. Our crappy leadership goes back before we even got an NFL team. This city has been mismanaged for decades.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 13, 2014, 01:17:11 PM
Perhaps I missed the privately funded and built part but $100 million in Infrastructure is no small amount... Stadium upgrades by taxpayers?  Sounds just like EverBank to me.  But it really doesnt matter.  There are ALWAYS "other ways" to spend some chunk of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Park

Looks to me like taxpayers approved $357mil...  8)

No.

Pretty familiar with this deal and the Warriors deal, which is ongoing.  $10MM tax abatement is only a couple of years of abatement, if you know anything about SF real estate (there is land trading here for close to $250MM an acre right now), and AT&T Park sits on a decent sized parcel, being that it is a stadium and all.

Also, $80MM was not for the stadium itself.  The city used the opportunity of the stadium locating there to build up the neighborhood, which is now known as South Beach and China Basin, across from the exploding Mission Bay neighborhood (SF's answer to Cambridge, MA) right now.  The money spent included a stop on a new LRT line that connected the city's southern neighborhoods (such as Hunter's Point, Visitacion Valley, Dogpatch, Mission Bay, China Basin, and South Beach) with the financial district and the other ~6 lines in the Muni Metro system, which all converge along 5 stations on the Market St Spine, bring 200,000+ people a day to downtown.

Now, the "Central Subway", a $1.8Bn Muni Metro expansion, will tie into that LRT extension that was built "for" (but not really) AT&T Park, and will provide all Muni riders more direct access to the 4th St Caltrain station, which is the main hub for SF's commuter rail (eventually that will move closer into the financial district when they complete electrification of that whole system and find funding to bring it all into the new Transbay Terminal, now UC about 1.5 miles away).  BART will also be directly tied in.

I could go on, but I just arrived from the airport and happened to take some iPhone pics while stuck in traffic.  Here is the area that the $80MM infrastructure improvements were made for.

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0030_zpsc8faf57b.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0030_zpsc8faf57b.jpg.html)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0026_zps0bb49d12.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0026_zps0bb49d12.jpg.html)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0027_zpsd8a5db70.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0027_zpsd8a5db70.jpg.html)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0019_zps9b80d738.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0019_zps9b80d738.jpg.html)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0020_zps38e1ed11.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0020_zps38e1ed11.jpg.html)

(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/IMG_0022_zpsd0a82366.jpg) (http://s916.photobucket.com/user/jsimms3/media/IMG_0022_zpsd0a82366.jpg.html)

These are a bit older and taken on a Sunday evening last spring, but the "South Beach"/SoMa area around the ballpark also includes lots of older rehabbed buildings commanding top dollar rents and hosting lots of startups and tech firms:

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/14344228342_fc4211e431_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRxVkL)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5569/14344227912_42f9a4c4ac_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRxVdm)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5555/14366019743_1faf7410ee_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nTtBaz)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3915/14345836335_1ccae24bcf_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRGakM)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5544/14322698956_3c6c5c207a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nPDzps)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14159175379_1bfe17b385_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nzctxr)

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3899/14345834885_055304929c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nRG9UM)

The upper/residential end of Mission Bay UC at the time:

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3879/14159338177_04c8ef3921_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nzdiWi)



Lastly, the stadium costs $357MM to build, completely privately financed.  There was no "voter approval" to build it.  Similarly, the Warriors are building a roughly $600MM arena now in Mission Bay.  Like AT&T Park, they were going to build it on a derelict Pier that the city was going to give them, and spend $130MM to refurbish the pier to support uses.  That number ballooned and the NIMBYs came out in full force so they moved about 3/4 of a mile south to Mission Bay.  Again, privately financed.  It will include office and retail/entertainment uses.

FTR, AT&T Park is one of the best baseball stadiums in the country, probably top 3.  It's literally right in the thick of things and there are at least 30-40 bars within a quarter mile walking distance, plus restaurants, and clubs.  It's up there with Fenway and Wrigley Park for plain ol' fantastically located and well built baseball parks with tons of shit to do all around.  Substitute neighboring rooftop bleachers at Wrigley (sadly possibly going away there) for McCovey Cove, an inlet where people kayak and boat and watch the game from the water.

Nobody in SF is mourning the "loss" of the Niners, because it isn't a loss.  Santa Clara County is paying lots of money for that stadium (voter approved), and frankly, there is almost "too much" to do in the city and almost nothing to do down there, so it just evens things out, ever so slightly.

I think football stadiums belong in the suburbs where you can provide surface parking and tailgate areas.  And I think baseball stadiums and arenas belong in the city.  To that end, the Bay Area gets it mostly right.  When the SuperBowl comes in 2016, visitors, especially those that are higher end, will either be in Palo Alto (which is small and limited) or in SF, not in San Jose.  The game will be in San Jose, but the actual Superbowl and all that it entails will happen in SF.

I would say while we have our battles over here (ultra ultra ultra left AND actually a Democracy where every crazy and every NIMBY gets to vote about every fuckin thing), this is a city that is probably the least hypocritical in the country, and puts its money where its mouth is.

I just wish Jax used bed tax money for tourist things, at minimum, not for oversized score boards.  But I guess it, too, is putting its money where its mouth is since apparently this the kind of thing everyone wants!!  Even the "urbanites" on this urban-oriented web site.

Quote from: KenFSU on August 13, 2014, 12:23:22 PM
^ The vast majority goes to maintaining the sports complex (33% of the bed tax) and paying interest on the bonds that financed the construction of the stadium (33%). Of that remaining third, roughly 70% goes to Visit Jacksonville, for marketing and promotion of the city. From my understanding, the rest typically goes toward staffing and administrative expenses for the Tourist Development Council, and for grants for various sporting events, festivals, and concerts that will potentially bring tourism to Jacksonville. I believe that specific examples include the Florida-Florida State baseball game, Florida-Georgia football, the Gator Bowl, the ACC Championship game, the NCAA basketball tournament, Super Bowl XXXIX, the Mega Super Giant Country Fest, etc.

Per the Jax Daily Record, the Florida Country Superfest received a $200,000 bed tax grant as incentive to hold the show at Everbank.

Next year, that grant will be cut to $100,000, which may jeopardize the show's potential return to Jacksonville.

QuoteWhen the $100,000 grant for the second Superfest was proposed, City Council member Richard Clark said it was a "perfect model" for the tourism council.

"Year one, we take a risk; year two, we back down a sizable chunk; year three, they're out of TDC," he said.

QuoteQuote from: KenFSU on August 13, 2014, 12:23:22 PM

^ The vast majority goes to maintaining the sports complex (33% of the bed tax) and paying interest on the bonds that financed the construction of the stadium (33%). Of that remaining third, roughly 70% goes to Visit Jacksonville, for marketing and promotion of the city. From my understanding, the rest typically goes toward staffing and administrative expenses for the Tourist Development Council, and for grants for various sporting events, festivals, and concerts that will potentially bring tourism to Jacksonville. I believe that specific examples include the Florida-Florida State baseball game, Florida-Georgia football, the Gator Bowl, the ACC Championship game, the NCAA basketball tournament, Super Bowl XXXIX, the Mega Super Giant Country Fest, etc.

I think this is incorrect. 2/3 of the bed taxes go to the stadium or 66 percent. When the 2 penny sales tax finished paying off the bond for the convention center that money was then redirected to fund stadium maintenance, which was then used to finance the scoreboards.

I haven't seen the terms of the bond for the scoreboard but it's probably fairly safe to say we are on the hook for about 3 million a year for 30 years.

If this is accurate we're paying about $250,000 per month for the largest scoreboard in the world.

^Ken's correct. Of the 6% bed tax, 2% goes to the capital improvement fund, 2% goes to debt service for the bonds that built Everbank Field, and the other 2% goes to the tourism promotion fund. The capital improvement fund is tied to the stadium district, with the stadium, Arena, and Baseball Grounds being named specifically.

Prior to 2009, there was no capital improvement fund in the bed tax; that pot of money was often considered for the convention center. The Better Jacksonville Plan had its own maintenance fund for those buildings, which seems to have been re-appropriated before the bed tax was restructured.

So, the question is what percentage of the capital improvement fund will now service debt for the scoreboard?

And, we have a three to four year record to see how the capital improvement fund was actually spent prior to the scoreboards.

I'm assuming visit Jacksonville is not in charge of capital improvement fund...?

Either way, the stadium receives more than one-third of the available bed tax dollars.

Considering the Stadium is the biggest attraction / venue we have downtown, I'm ok with that.

Monster Jam, MotoX, Paintball tourneys, Soccer games, Gator Bowl, FL vs GA, the corporate events, movie nights that were recently announced, Country Music Fest (assuming the city doesn't screw it up and lose it) and who know's what else is in the works.... It's better to do one thing really good than a bunch of crappy things.

Ken stated, correctly, that the majority (2/3) of the bed tax money goes to the stadium district. 1/3 goes to debt service on the original Everbank construction (ie, to the stadium) and 1/3 goes to the capital improvements fund for the stadium district (of which Everbank is a major part).

It's never been clear exactly how the capital money has been spent; whether there was enough in the bank to cover the 2014 improvements or whether we were going to bond it out. It's of course totally possible, if not probable, that we could have gotten the same thing without Mayor Brown coughing up so much bed tax money and without us being on the hook to cover the extra Florida-Georgia seating.

Looks like another 1.6 million a year will be used according to the News4Jax  in the attached piece.  Apparently this is a new revelation coming after the jumbo tron.

QuoteKSONVILLE, Fla. -
City leaders learned Thursday the city will be paying $1.6 million a year to add more seats to EverBank Field for the annual Florida-Georgia game.

It's a surprise that came as result of the stadium improvements of the video boards, swimming pools and cabanas.

The cost was approved reluctantly because city leaders believe there was no choice. They have taken some money from the mayor's special projects, such as his open house and job fair, to pay for the seats.

  http://www.news4jax.com/news/city-to-pay-more-for-extra-floridageorgia-seats/27665424

There was discussion of this when the renovations were approved.  Guess the City Council wasn't paying attention (what a surprise!)  Of course they have to put in temporary seats to meet the FL/GA contract.  Hope they securely cover those pools - don't want to add drowning in the stadium to the way GA/FL drunks kill themselves or each other.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 21, 2014, 04:56:50 PM
Ken stated, correctly, that the majority (2/3) of the bed tax money goes to the stadium district. 1/3 goes to debt service on the original Everbank construction (ie, to the stadium) and 1/3 goes to the capital improvements fund for the stadium district (of which Everbank is a major part).

It's never been clear exactly how the capital money has been spent; whether there was enough in the bank to cover the 2014 improvements or whether we were going to bond it out. It's of course totally possible, if not probable, that we could have gotten the same thing without Mayor Brown coughing up so much bed tax money and without us being on the hook to cover the extra Florida-Georgia seating.

We are bonding 2014 scoreboard and renovations. I don't think it's been fully bonded, yet.

I have some documentation that I will be posting in the next few days.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 21, 2014, 07:14:51 PM
There was discussion of this when the renovations were approved.  Guess the City Council wasn't paying attention (what a surprise!)  Of course they have to put in temporary seats to meet the FL/GA contract.  Hope they securely cover those pools - don't want to add drowning in the stadium to the way GA/FL drunks kill themselves or each other.

This is the Mayor's job, he should have been on top of this, and lo and behold, he screwed up again.

Or he did exactly what he was told to do Tacachale.  The oops I didn't know routine while knowing the entire time.  :)

How much increase in tax revenues does the city get during FL/GA game?   The city should add a seat tax to pay for adding the additional seats or maybe it's time to start alternating the games between Jacksonville and Atlanta.  Yes, I went there.

So you'd get rid of an event that brings in millions of dollars for no gain? Brilliant.

The increase in cost is not because of the renovations to the stadium, but due to demands from both of the schools to upgrade from the seating we normally provided to include "all seating" to have both backs and cupholders. 

It's not in the contract, but we run the risk of losing the game if they don't get what they want.

Quit trying to pin this on the Jags and the scoreboards when ALL of the blame goes straight to the schools for strong-arming the city.  And like Taca said, are you really going to cry over a $1M for an even that brings in 10s of millions? 

Spiting your face by cutting off your nose has never been the best plan. And the paper is also pulling a number out of their ass reporting that the $1.6M is 5 times the previous amount, and that doesn't sound right to me.  I've looked it up before, but haven't been able to dig it up this morning, but if memory serves correctly, the cost of the original temporary seating was somewhere around $650-700k.

Quote from: Buforddawg on August 21, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
How much increase in tax revenues does the city get during FL/GA game?   The city should add a seat tax to pay for adding the additional seats or maybe it's time to start alternating the games between Jacksonville and Atlanta.  Yes, I went there.

stone him.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 22, 2014, 09:31:37 AM
The increase in cost is not because of the renovations to the stadium, but due to demands from both of the schools to upgrade from the seating we normally provided to include "all seating" to have both backs and cupholders. 

It's not in the contract, but we run the risk of losing the game if they don't get what they want.

Quit trying to pin this on the Jags and the scoreboards when ALL of the blame goes straight to the schools for strong-arming the city.  And like Taca said, are you really going to cry over a $1M for an even that brings in 10s of millions? 

Spiting your face by cutting off your nose has never been the best plan. And the paper is also pulling a number out of their ass reporting that the $1.6M is 5 times the previous amount, and that doesn't sound right to me.  I've looked it up before, but haven't been able to dig it up this morning, but if memory serves correctly, the cost of the original temporary seating was somewhere around $650-700k.

Given the Jacksonville media's history of nominating Urban Meyer for sainthood while ignoring 27 Gator arrests during his tenure, Aaron Hernandez doing everything short of holding up Fort Knox, et al. while casting the Jaguars as a gang of thugs, it's no surprise that they're disinclined to point the finger at the university from 75 miles away that they inexplicably think is the "pride of Jacksonville." 

The way News4Jax presented this is absurd, as though the sole issue is that no one saw the need for extra seating coming.

And yes, you're correct about the $650-$700k original cost.  There was a lot of griping when that original number was reported.