Nathan Beford Forrest High: Time For a Name Change
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/miscellaneous-banners/i-WC5xCBx/0/O/montyforestbanner.jpg)
There is a new fight to change the name of Nathan Beford Forrest High School being organized by Professor Stoll. Robert Montgomerie weighs in on why this is important and reflects on the almost inexplicable history behind a high school being named after the founder of the Klan.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-nathan-beford-forrest-high-time-for-a-name-change
Though I understand the want from some to see the name change I tend to side with the keep the name faction. Why should we erase a piece of history just because it may be embarrassing to some? Perhaps subtle reminders such as a school name will remind students what their parents/grandparents/great-grandparents overcame and that if they do not continue the trail blazed by them the same will happen to them or their children. If someone is truly upset by the name of the school, that person should look deeper inside themselves and answer why such raw emotion exists. In all likelihood a name change will not change their feelings. The one problem with history is it is written by the victorious, perhaps we should hold on to the small pieces that force us to remember the actions of the victorious upon those whom suffered.
^ Good point, I did not factor that into my opinion.
^Yeah, there's no real "history" to the name. Forest had nothing to do with Jacksonville or Florida during his lifetime and the school isn't historic (unlike Lee High for instance). It didn't open until 1959 and the name was deliberately chosen as a swipe against the civil rights movement. There are some legitimate concerns about changing the name, but erasing history isn't one of them.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 27, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
^Yeah, there's no real "history" to the name. Forest had nothing to do with Jacksonville or Florida during his lifetime and the school isn't historic (unlike Lee High for instance). It didn't open until 1959 and the name was deliberately chosen as a swipe against the civil rights movement. There are some legitimate concerns about changing the name, but erasing history isn't one of them.
Thanks for the insight, if if was truly a swipe at the civil rights movement than I would be more apt to advocate for a name change. Might I ask what the other legitimate concerns to a name change are?
Quote from: JayBird on August 27, 2013, 01:21:48 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 27, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
^Yeah, there's no real "history" to the name. Forest had nothing to do with Jacksonville or Florida during his lifetime and the school isn't historic (unlike Lee High for instance). It didn't open until 1959 and the name was deliberately chosen as a swipe against the civil rights movement. There are some legitimate concerns about changing the name, but erasing history isn't one of them.
Thanks for the insight, if if was truly a swipe at the civil rights movement than I would be more apt to advocate for a name change. Might I ask what the other legitimate concerns to a name change are?
It was most definitely a swipe at civil rights; it was one of several schools that opened as white-only in defiance of Brown vs. the Board of Education. Several of the other white-only schools that opened around that time were given names of Confederates with no connection to Florida (Jefferson Davis Middle, JEB Stuart Middle, etc).
Quote from: Apache on August 27, 2013, 02:26:48 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 27, 2013, 01:13:40 PM
^Yeah, there's no real "history" to the name. Forest had nothing to do with Jacksonville or Florida during his lifetime and the school isn't historic (unlike Lee High for instance). It didn't open until 1959 and the name was deliberately chosen as a swipe against the civil rights movement. There are some legitimate concerns about changing the name, but erasing history isn't one of them.
What are the legit concerns Tacachale?
Normally I would side with Jaybirds original post in that I typically don't like to do things for pc reasons, but in this case, I can't come up with any good reason that we, in Jacksonville, should honor Forest by having a school named after him.
To me, the most pressing argument against a change would be the considerable cost of renaming versus the largely symbolic benefit of getting rid of it. Then there's the issue that if we're changing this one, are we going to change the various other schools named after Confederates (and pay for it)?
I think one of the biggest factors mentioned the last time a name change was brought up was just the sheer cost of having to change the name.
Makes sense. Wonder what those figures are. I mean, stationary is nonexistent anymore, changing a computer printout heading is simple. I guess the costs come in the signs on the building/property and any athletic uniforms. So that probably amounts to +/- $10k. Not really a deal breaker.
So i have a question since we have a African American ( Black ) President should they have to change it from The White House to The Black House?? I do not understand why they would even consider changing the name of a high school just because of the sheer fact of the History behind it. There is alot of things that was ok to do and say back it the early days. That is the reason it is called History right? But yet in our School system they do not say the Pledge of Allegiance and can not say Prayer any longer.I know we did when i was in school. But yet they are starting to make our kids learn about muslim and other religions. Am I the only one that sees a bigger Problem in our school systems then the name of a School? But yet this is what our country has come to, lets worry about a small issue to cover up the bigger issues. I stand for the name of the high school that has been in this city since the 50's.
At this point, I would prefer they just change the name. However, the article presents some opinions as facts. Most believe that Forest's KKK was much different than the KKK that we now know. He also broke away from the KKK based on their actions and ultimately tried to bring some measure of accord between black and white societies.
For the record, I am not defending Forrest's actions. Just stating that the article is not entirely accurate.
Quote from: DirtRoadGurl on August 27, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
So i have a question since we have a African American ( Black ) President should they have to change it from The White House to The Black House?? I do not understand why they would even consider changing the name of a high school just because of the sheer fact of the History behind it. There is alot of things that was ok to do and say back it the early days. That is the reason it is called History right? But yet in our School system they do not say the Pledge of Allegiance and can not say Prayer any longer.I know we did when i was in school. But yet they are starting to make our kids learn about muslim and other religions. Am I the only one that sees a bigger Problem in our school systems then the name of a School? But yet this is what our country has come to, lets worry about a small issue to cover up the bigger issues. I stand for the name of the high school that has been in this city since the 50's.
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Quote from: JayBird on August 27, 2013, 03:24:15 PM
Makes sense. Wonder what those figures are. I mean, stationary is nonexistent anymore, changing a computer printout heading is simple. I guess the costs come in the signs on the building/property and any athletic uniforms. So that probably amounts to +/- $10k. Not really a deal breaker.
The costs would be pretty considerable. You have all the signs, including on offices in the building, all the letterhead, everyone's business cards, student uniforms, band and athletics uniforms, and anything referring to the school in other city publications or documents. I'm certainly not saying this is a reason to keep the name, but it's something that has to be considered.
What are some reasons this was not done like 20 yrs ago? seems like a no brainer to me...
EDT: i dont get the cost argument... even if we cant afford the change right now, lets make it official that the name will be changed, even at least as a symbolic gesture. Change the name official even if it takes years to replace old signage and update letterheds (which how expensive is this, really?)
If we had a historically black highschool named malcom x high or black panther whatever middle school, do you think the powers that be would be saying its too expensive to change or history blah blah blah? seriously...
Is there currently a Heinrich Himmler High in Germany? Probably not, since even though he played a part in contemporary German history, the guy was a freaking Nazi.
So why is it ok to have a school in Duval named after the founder of a terrorist organization like the Ku Klux Klan?
My .02 is: you get what you pay for (or don't pay for).
It may not be an earth shattering step forward in the grand history of human progress, but I really think the city should step up, spend the money and change the name to something a bit less controversial for a high school than the founder of the KKK, history be damned.
Unless we're all just actually ok with the KKK now?!
The cost aspect is garbage. Change the name and phase things in. Use up the letterhead. Put up temporary signs. Get some local businesses to help sponser new signs uniforms whatever, just dont keep sweeping this under the rug.
and if they're going to use the "southern pride" argument (unsure why, but that's entirely another topic of conversation) for someone in which to keep the school named after, then use some OTHER Confederate commander. One with ostensibly fewer controversial associations.
I don't know, John Bell Hood, Braxton Bragg, Albert Sidney Johnston, James Longstreet come to mind.
(Hey - where else am I going to use my otherwise-worthless History Degree?)
I'm sure Ock can give us like, thirty off the top of his head since he's so well versed in Southron history.
C'mon already.
Quote from: stephendare on August 27, 2013, 04:06:11 PM
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on August 27, 2013, 04:03:10 PM
Is there currently a Heinrich Himmler High in Germany? Probably not, since even though he played a part in contemporary history, the guy was a freaking Nazi.
So why is it ok to have a school in Duval named after the founder of a terrorist organization like the Ku Klux Klan?
My .02 is: you get what you pay for (or don't pay for).
It may not be an earth shattering step forward in the grand history of human progress, but I really think the city should step up, spend the money and change the name to something a bit less controversial for a high school than the founder of the KKK, history be damned.
Unless we're all just actually ok with the KKK now?!
Or rename it Idi Amin High School? Or perhaps Charles Manson Middle School? I mean since we are choosing intentionally insulting names that have nothing to do with our own history, why not? The type of mentality that led the school boards to open all white schools to defy Brown vs. Board of Education and name them after Klan Founders only led to the complete disaccreditation of our school system after all.
Or maybe Ted Bundy High School. He did spend a brief time in Jacksonville so there is a vague connection.
I bet you could round up private sponsors to help cover the costs of the name change, if such a thing were to be seriously considered. Couldn't they change it to a Jacksonville historical figure, or name it after the area or something?
It isn't a huge deal, but surely changing the name of the school from the founder of the KKK to Hans Tanzler High (or something) could only help improve Jacksonville's image. Changing it from one historical figure to another can't possibly elicit strong reactions from fans of history, especially since now local history would be represented. (And, you know. People from out of town wouldn't ask, incredulous, about the high school named after the Klan founder.)
Quote from: Bativac on August 27, 2013, 04:31:11 PM
I bet you could round up private sponsors to help cover the costs of the name change, if such a thing were to be seriously considered. Couldn't they change it to a Jacksonville historical figure, or name it after the area or something?
It isn't a huge deal, but surely changing the name of the school from the founder of the KKK to Hans Tanzler High (or something) could only help improve Jacksonville's image. Changing it from one historical figure to another can't possibly elicit strong reactions from fans of history, especially since now local history would be represented. (And, you know. People from out of town wouldn't ask, incredulous, about the high school named after the Klan founder.)
Agreed. I think naming High Schools after people that have had a positive impact on Jacksonville is a good idea. Tillie Fowler and Dorcas Drake come to mind as candidates. We should have done that with the new high school that was just built- Atlantic Coast High or whatever it is called.
The leading candidate for the name change has been Scott Speicher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Speicher), the fighter pilot and first American casualty of the Gulf War. Not only was he a positive influence who was actually from Jacksonville and was stationed here, he actually went to this high school. If/when they rename it it should be after a local figure.
They should rename it Megatron High School and the mascot could be a kickass robot that transforms into a gun.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 27, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
They should rename it Megatron High School and the mascot could be a kickass robot that transforms into a gun.
I prefer Cline High School.
Born in Jax? check. Lives in Jax? check. Is universally regarded as awesome? double check.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 27, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
They should rename it Megatron High School and the mascot could be a kickass robot that transforms into a gun.
Rodimus Prime > Megatron
My avatar wins. :D
Quote from: cline on August 27, 2013, 04:27:56 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 27, 2013, 04:06:11 PM
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on August 27, 2013, 04:03:10 PM
Is there currently a Heinrich Himmler High in Germany? Probably not, since even though he played a part in contemporary history, the guy was a freaking Nazi.
So why is it ok to have a school in Duval named after the founder of a terrorist organization like the Ku Klux Klan?
My .02 is: you get what you pay for (or don't pay for).
It may not be an earth shattering step forward in the grand history of human progress, but I really think the city should step up, spend the money and change the name to something a bit less controversial for a high school than the founder of the KKK, history be damned.
Unless we're all just actually ok with the KKK now?!
Or rename it Idi Amin High School? Or perhaps Charles Manson Middle School? I mean since we are choosing intentionally insulting names that have nothing to do with our own history, why not? The type of mentality that led the school boards to open all white schools to defy Brown vs. Board of Education and name them after Klan Founders only led to the complete disaccreditation of our school system after all.
Or maybe Ted Bundy High School. He did spend a brief time in Jacksonville so there is a vague connection.
Ouch--or there's always Ottis Toole Tech if we want to stay local/loco.
Born and raised in Jacksonville, he's the prime suspect for the murder of Adam Walsh in 1981. Has as much relevance to a quality education as Nathan Bedford Forrest does.
Cost isn't considerable at all. If the school system is still spending a dime on letterhead or business cards whoever makes those suggestions should be kindly escorted from the building and given a gold watch and the canned "thanks for your service" speech. Most schools have a painted sign in their gym, a sign at the road, one on the building and one on the athletic field. That plus changing athletic/band/cheerleading (not intentionally separating cheer and athletics) would all be no more than $10,000 by rough estimate and a few quick web site checks. But lets say it was $25,000 .... I am sure that the school board could receive that much in community donations to change the name to Scott Speicher High School.
Of course I'm not gonna lie, Megatron High sounds kick @ss awesome :-)
^The marching band uniforms alone would probably cost that much. But yes, you have a point, the cost by itself shouldn't be the determining factor, as new stuff is going to have to be bought over time anyway.
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on August 27, 2013, 04:03:10 PM
Is there currently a Heinrich Himmler High in Germany? Probably not, since even though he played a part in contemporary German history, the guy was a freaking Nazi.
So why is it ok to have a school in Duval named after the founder of a terrorist organization like the Ku Klux Klan?
My .02 is: you get what you pay for (or don't pay for).
It may not be an earth shattering step forward in the grand history of human progress, but I really think the city should step up, spend the money and change the name to something a bit less controversial for a high school than the founder of the KKK, history be damned.
Unless we're all just actually ok with the KKK now?!
my thoughts exactly.
I actually attended Forrest High School. While I was there, I never thought much about the name. In fact, I don't remember anyone really talking about it. (Full disclosure: nobody would have ever mistaken me for an intellectual back then). ;D
I think we (me and my friends, anyway) were more embarrassed to be called the "Rebels". It had sort of a Dukes of Hazard redneck-y feel to it. Not at all what we wanted to be though of in the mid to late 80s. If you had changed the name to Robert Smith High and called our football team the Love Cats we would have felt a bit more school spirit. I remember some of my black friends wearing jackets with a Confederate battle flag on the back, and irony wasn't really the "thing" at that time, so I'm pretty sure they weren't making a statement. I guess we were all typical teenagers who mostly thought about girls/boys or sports or music. I don't remember much discussion about the name in history classes, but again, I wasn't exactly the most diligent student.
As I got older, when I met people who were also Jacksonville natives, one of the first questions was always "where did you go to high school?" I think that's when it started hitting me. I still didn't have strong feelings about it, but I found myself almost apologizing for the name. In fact, just this past week someone who moved here right after high school and is familiar with the local schools even though she didn't go to school here asked me where I went. I instinctively cringed when I told her.
I don't know as much about Forrest as I probably should. I've heard that he was the founder of the KKK and an evil guy, and I've heard about his atrocities on the battlefield, but I also know that war is hell and all that, and the atrocities of the Union heroes are probably underreported since they (or should I say we?) won. I've also heard Forrest's defenders say that at that time the KKK was more like a fraternity and that they went out and helped war widows and I can't remember what else now. I remember reading that the historian Shelby Foote considered Lincoln and Forrest to be the two great geniuses that came out of the Civil War. Maybe I should stop being lazy and do my own research. I'm starting to think that the old saying about statistics could also apply to history ("there are lies, damn lies, and history").
I remember a couple of movements to change the name and the people who wanted to name the school after Speicher. There have been some other good suggestions in this thread like Tanzler and Drake and Fowler. Each worthy of being honored.
I know that it's not appropriate to have a school named after Forrest. But it smacks of political correctness to take his name off. Maybe something nondescript like P.S. 248 would have been a better choice. I think this is why they named the new high school Atlantic Coast or whatever instead of naming it after a person. If I remember correctly, back in the 50s the other name they considered for the school was Valhalla. That would have been pretty cool. Talk about a missed opportunity.
One question I have is this: if we change the name of Forrest High School, what else are we going to change? I guess we've got to get rid of J.E.B. Stuart and Stonewall Jackson. Jeff Davis. Can we keep Robert E. Lee? Maybe for a while, but eventually he'll have to go too. George Washington owned slaves. I'm not trying to be ridiculous but where do we draw the line?
I think the connection to the KKK is the issue.
(Even if that was the nice KKK -- really?)
It isn't the fact that it is politically incorrect. It is the fact that it is horribly offensive.
And another thing... :D
I think a name that really brings shame on us all is the person that our city is named after. Andrew Jackson is another guy who, as far as I know never set foot here and really didn't have much to do with this area. Yes, he was a President, but should the person behind the Trail of Tears be honored by having our city named after him?
Trying to accommodate current thought by changing names of places or things, named in a different time under different thought is difficult. Where do you begin and where do you stop? The flag that flew over slavery the longest in this country was the current United States flag, should it be changed? The Confederate Battle flag never flew over slavery, It flew on the battlefield and in a naval configuration over CSA ships, however, in the 20th century, the Klan and skinheads were allowed to capture the flag and fly it over the worst kind of pro segregation demonstrations, so that it has become part of the negative thought toward those groups and their actions. I consider this because of the lack of action of moderate white southerners including myself who saw that flag in a different light but never stepped forward to complain, we have to shoulder some of the blame. So perhaps now, the confederate battleflag should be put away in museums until such a time as that revised meaning is just a long ago memory. NBF was not from this area, did not command troops from this area, and never visited this area, his name on a new school in the late 50's was only to make a statement that was anti integration. Ironically, the massacre of African American soldiers at Fort Pillow for which he was blamed, was determined by an investigation led by Gen. Sherman that it was not his fault. And again, ironically, the fault for Fort Pillow was found to be the work of Gen. Kirby Smith, who was from this area!!! But alumni of the school, both races , seem to be comfortable with the name of the school. I think the name of the school should be changed.
Quote from: sheclown on August 27, 2013, 06:38:24 PM
I think the connection to the KKK is the issue.
(Even if that was the nice KKK -- really?)
It isn't the fact that it is politically incorrect. It is the fact that it is horribly offensive.
Yeah, I'm trying to find something about the KKK fraternity stuff. If I remember correctly his defenders (apologists?) said that he left the KKK when they started terrorizing people. I guess anyone can say anything so I probably should have put my hands on that before I said anything about it but I couldn't stop myself. I'm not here to defend the KKK. But I want to know more.
A quick google search picked this up: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kkk-founded (http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kkk-founded)
QuoteFormer Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest was the KKK's first grand wizard; in 1869, he unsuccessfully tried to disband it after he grew critical of the Klan's excessive violence.
Other sources have similar passages.
The first time I came to Jacksonville was when I was 14 years old. Growing up mostly in northeastern Pennsylvania, I am very familiar with "northern racism" but the one thing that really stunned me was the outright hateful sentiment in those days among whites from the lower classes and really with no true logical base. I remember meeting a girl at the Robert E Lee swimming pool and asking her why they would name the school after a man who rebelled against his own country to defend slavery and what she called me was a bit too insulting to mention here. But it stayed with me.
When I moved here to stay after college I remember always wondering why they would allow Forrest to be commemorated in such a way and why they wold allow a public park to be named "Confederate Park". It wasn't until Stephen gave me a crash course on how the park got its name before I really got interested in reading up on how the school came to be named Forrest High School.
My initial intention was to include an interview with some of the people responsible for lobbying for the name. Many have since passed on and their relatives, after seeing some of my articles online, wouldn't discuss it with me. Originally the name of the high school was going to be called Valhalla High School - why I'm not sure. After the Brown vs. Board of Education decision came about, the Daughters of the Confederacy lobbied for its current name which to me seems defiantly petty.
My other concern has always been the Daughters of the Confederacy's arrogance in lobbying for this name knowing that African-American taxpayers would be paying for the school along with everyone else. This to me is offensive on many levels.
Much of the concerns I've gotten from whites on the westside have been mainly dealing with the idea that changing the name of the school somehow "destroys their heritage". To that I would like to mention that many of them, if any, weren't even related to Forrest. Also, there are way too many positive local Jaxons one could name a school after and I'm sure Stephen can name far more than I could. Furthermore, there are many positives about the south that should live on minus the character lackings of a man like Nathan Bedford Forrest. Southerners are hard working people who will give you the shirt off of their back if they like you. They are proud and interested in fairness and honor. It is unfortunate that such propaganda is allowed to exist as it brings down what is perhaps a reasonably respectable culture.
Change the name to, simply, "Forrest High School", and have a required course for every student explaining why, in the enlightened year of 2013, the name was shortened and go over the history of Nathan B. Forrest, encouraging student dialogue about Forrest and the Civil War.
Quote from: L.P. Hovercraft on August 27, 2013, 05:08:56 PM
Ouch--or there's always Ottis Toole Tech if we want to stay local/loco.
Born and raised in Jacksonville, he's the prime suspect for the murder of Adam Walsh in 1981. Has as much relevance to a quality education as Nathan Bedford Forrest does.
Why not? I came across a potential mascot drawn by Ottis himself, in a DC museum a few weeks back..
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-krHF6pt/0/X2/P1650939-X2.jpg)
QuoteOne question I have is this: if we change the name of Forrest High School, what else are we going to change? I guess we've got to get rid of J.E.B. Stuart and Stonewall Jackson. Jeff Davis. Can we keep Robert E. Lee? Maybe for a while, but eventually he'll have to go too. George Washington owned slaves. I'm not trying to be ridiculous but where do we draw the line?
QuoteI think a name that really brings shame on us all is the person that our city is named after. Andrew Jackson is another guy who, as far as I know never set foot here and really didn't have much to do with this area. Yes, he was a President, but should the person behind the Trail of Tears be honored by having our city named after him?
Good point and, in my opinion, the essence of the debate.
Take the names off the streets and leave them in the history books. Ease public agitations (on the right and left). Promote the things that unify us and not those that divide us. Naming a school that is evidently based on a premise of hate not heritage is not reasonable or logical. How has this argument been going on for so long?
While we are at it, change the name of Jacksonville too. What a lazy and apathetic name that promotes so much unoriginal blandness. Save the raciest part, one doesn't even have to look that far to realize it's a bad choice of name.
Andrew Jackson:
The 7th president of the United States who was celebrated for dismantling the 2nd National Bank and enacting a spoils system (he wasn't all bad). He was also infamous for Native American ethnic cleansing , deadly duels, and was pro slavery (but he had pretty twisted morals).
Ville:
Originally from Latin Villa Rustica (Farm), later From French Ville (town, city), and used in English as a suffix describing mostly villages, towns, and sometimes cities.
Andrew Jackson was the military governor of Florida for
10 months after an unauthorized invasion of the territory in 1821 which lead to Spain ceding the peninsula the same year. He kind of loathed the place.
There are currently 19 towns/cities named after Andrew Jackson in the U.S., 3 use the suffix -ville in combination with his last name; Jacksonville.
The differences between Forrest and, say, Lee, Washington, Jefferson, and other is very marked. We can be frank in explaining that they paradoxically owned slaves but traded off that ill in contributions. Nathan Bedford Forrest over the course of a lifetime wasn't similar in any way. The man by predominant accounts was a cruel, violent, and hateful individual who's savagery in the name of profits rivals that of some of the worst individuals in history.
I believe that changing the name of Forrest doesn't mean the community has to go any further than it wants to. If that includes going after JEB Stuart or Stonewall Jackson so be it. If it doesn't that's fine as well.
Don't forget that the school is predominately occupied by black children -- what the hell?
Heritage is fine. Cruelty is not.
Quote from: sheclown on August 28, 2013, 07:25:56 AM
Don't forget that the school is predominately occupied by black children -- what the hell?
Heritage is fine. Cruelty is not.
I think the first step we must take is to stop making decisions based on race, gender, creed, political affiliation in this city. Until we can reach that point, any changes proposed/made to school names, or any other community decision for that matter, would not solve the underlying problem. As I stated before, people who are truly upset by the name of a school (instead of looking at the student body that represents that name) will not find satisfaction with merely a name change. They need to look a little deeper and find the cause of such feelings and deal with those.
*****
As for Jacksonville, I think it is applicable. It showed that the community held Andrew Jackson in honor and were in line with his ambitions at the time.
After reading the comments here, I can see why a name change would be a positive move. However, for those that feel ashamed of attending there or those that feel it is disrespectful, stand up and be proud. After all, it took people standing up and being proud of themselves to put an end to what that man (or the organization he created) stood for.
Quote from: MEGATRON on August 27, 2013, 04:56:38 PM
They should rename it Megatron High School and the mascot could be a kickass robot that transforms into a gun.
Man, no way this could ever happen. :-\ The gun control activists would lose their minds.
Maybe if Megatron the robot turned into a flower, or a cute little bunny, or something else that no one finds offensive. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on August 28, 2013, 10:35:01 AM
Quote from: Jameson on August 28, 2013, 10:29:49 AM
Man, no way this could ever happen. :-\ The gun control activists would lose their minds.
Maybe if Megatron the robot turned into a flower, or a cute little bunny, or something else that no one finds offensive. ;)
You don't think its a problem that you can't tell the difference between cartoon violence by imaginary cartoon guns, and real violence by actual guns?
I tried to use emojis to convey that I was joking and failed. I don't want to get off on a gun control tangent as this is not the thread for that, but I'll answer your question.
I most certainly can tell the difference between a gunfight on say an episode of South Park vs. the killing of Chris Lane in Oklahoma. However, I can see where some people in today's society may get confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr37b-FYj8g
Back to the Forrest issue. How come there's not more students involved? The article states that Stoll once used it as an assignment to a group of students, but why just a small group? Why aren't all of the students rallying to get the name changed as it represents them? Do they simply not know the history of Nathan Bedford Forrest? Do they just not care?
It just seems to me that if the students got more involved maybe more people would take note and the name might actually get changed.
Leave the name... just change the mascot/logo...
(http://www.everynation.org/europe/wp-content/uploads/forrest-gump.jpeg)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 28, 2013, 11:09:50 AM
Leave the name... just change the mascot/logo...
(http://www.everynation.org/europe/wp-content/uploads/forrest-gump.jpeg)
The Nathan Bedford Forrest Gumps. And have the mascot be a shrimp. I like it. Now we're getting somewhere.
^^ Lmao, but I think then the handicapped/disabled/mentally challenged/special (what is the proper term this year??) camp would riot
Quote from: sheclown on August 28, 2013, 07:25:56 AM
Don't forget that the school is predominately occupied by black children -- what the hell?
Heritage is fine. Cruelty is not.
There is some sort of strange poetic justice in the reality that the school is mostly attended by Black children. IMO ;)
To the issue of the name, it seems the discussion of name changes when it comes to schools always seems to revolve around the Nathan Bedford institution. In this particular case I do think the name should be changed. It has been a thorn in the side of racial balance for years and really represents the ugly notion of lashing out at desegregation years ago. Of course we cannot change history but we can choose what we honor in our own. Celebrating a KKK leader, in spite of his eventual remorse is just "ugly" and "ignorant" in my view. Perhaps just change the name to "Forrest" as others have suggested and remove the Nathan part altogether. Considering that there is a lumber history in the area and as a result many Pine forests in Jacksonville, why not consider "Pine Forest" for the name?
As far as equating the value of a name change to "dollars and cents", there are times when the dollar amount should not be the first consideration to change. I believe this is one of those cases.
What a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT! Perhaps we would also need to change the name of Kingsley Plantation to something more acceptable like 'Funky old white house on the salt marsh?' Switzerland needs to become 'Bend in the River' and Beluthahatchee Park perhaps 'Shad trees with Lake.' We can rename the Naval Air Station, 'Military post focused on water' (after all the military didn't accept equal roles for Blacks and minorities until post WWII). Then there is Francis Levett, Sr.'s Julianton Plantation, with dwelling house and gardens modeled after English country manors. Located at Mandarin Point, Levett's dwelling and garden looked on the St. Johns River and Julington Creek. Chuck that name: 'Julington Creek Plantation is gone, we need something more generic for that too. Plantation florida could be renamed 'Dream' or some other meaningless name such as 'Deer Chase' or 'Quail Hollow.' Edward White needs to be flushed, 'it hurts my feelings too.' You see I'm a direct decedent of both Wallace and Robert Bruce of Scotland, and we all know what Edward the I did to Wallace. Keiser University in Florida has to lose it's name too because we fought a war against 'The Keiser' and his boys used poison gas (far worse then anything Forest could have thought up). Oh no! There seems to be a connection with the name Dupont too. Apparently these slave trading nasties were related to Alfred, meaning of course all reference to 'Dupont' in Florida must be erased. Funny that the German's who by now are far more liberal and politically correct then Jacksonville, hasn't seen fit to change the name of Buchenwald Village. Buchenwald in the Buchenwald forest, near Weimar. It was the site of a large concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in 1937. It held approximately 20,000 prisoners during World War II. Belsen is a village within the German borough of Bergen, another name someone forgot to change.
To 'get over it' you'd have to come to a realization that injustice and forgiveness have been around since time began. Slavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons. Was my family ever anyones slave? Probably. Was yours? Likely.
Then there is the whole Christians to the lions thing. Shall I campaign to rid our world of every Italian word? Matter of fact I like Pizza too much.
In this process of tolerance we have become less tolerant, in this age of openness we've become closed, in this age of advanced historical and archeological study - we just don't want to hear it. It bruises our ears... labeled cruel... mean spirited and it's all about surrender of our multi-racial culture to appease the protestors de jour.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 28, 2013, 04:08:00 PM
What a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT! Perhaps we would also need to change the name of Kingsley Plantation to something more acceptable like 'Funky old white house on the salt marsh?' Switzerland needs to become 'Bend in the River' and Beluthahatchee Park perhaps 'Shad trees with Lake.' We can rename the Naval Air Station, 'Military post focused on water' (after all the military didn't accept equal roles for Blacks and minorities until post WWII). Then there is Francis Levett, Sr.'s Julianton Plantation, with dwelling house and gardens modeled after English country manors. Located at Mandarin Point, Levett's dwelling and garden looked on the St. Johns River and Julington Creek. Chuck that name: 'Julington Creek Plantation is gone, we need something more generic for that too. Plantation florida could be renamed 'Dream' or some other meaningless name such as 'Deer Chase' or 'Quail Hollow.' Edward White needs to be flushed, 'it hurts my feelings too.' You see I'm a direct decedent of both Wallace and Robert Bruce of Scotland, and we all know what Edward the I did to Wallace. Keiser University in Florida has to lose it's name too because we fought a war against 'The Keiser' and his boys used poison gas (far worse then anything Forest could have thought up). Oh no! There seems to be a connection with the name Dupont too. Apparently these slave trading nasties were related to Alfred, meaning of course all reference to 'Dupont' in Florida must be erased. Funny that the German's who by now are far more liberal and politically correct then Jacksonville, hasn't seen fit to change the name of Buchenwald Village. Buchenwald in the Buchenwald forest, near Weimar. It was the site of a large concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) regime in 1937. It held approximately 20,000 prisoners during World War II. Belsen is a village within the German borough of Bergen, another name someone forgot to change.
To 'get over it' you'd have to come to a realization that injustice and forgiveness have been around since time began. Slavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons. Was my family ever anyones slave? Probably. Was yours? Likely.
Then there is the whole Christians to the lions thing. Shall I campaign to rid our world of every Italian word? Matter of fact I like Pizza too much.
In this process of tolerance we have become less tolerant, in this age of openness we've become closed, in this age of advanced historical and archeological study - we just don't want to hear it. It bruises our ears... labeled cruel... mean spirited and it's all about surrender of our multi-racial culture to appease the protestors de jour.
Well Ock, this is kind of like asking "Southerners" to get over the fact that they lost the civil war. lol Seriously, for some it may seem that this is nitpicking but to others it is really offensive and hurtful. I have learned in my time that reasonable people can have reasonably different responses to a variety of issues. From my view this issue keeps coming up and that to me says there is something that needs resolution. If changing the name is as simple as dropping the Nathan and just keeping the "Forrest or Forest" part that is an easy enough concession to make. For heaven's sake we are still stuck and likely will remain stuck with "Andrew Jackson" as our city's namesake, certainly a controversial historic figure to say the least. Like you my family history is heavily rooted in the south but I can certainly understand others who do not share that heritage having a different take on this. :)
^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.
QuoteWhat a shame that people can't get over our own history and use that as an excuse to 'feel oppressed.' BULL SHIT!
What do you think ock? Do You think the fine families of Ponte Vedra would be okay if we developed a Nat Turner Park near Ponte Vedra High? Or, maybe we should just change the name of that school to Nat Turner High School of Leadership Development? Nat Turner was a leader amongst the oppressed. That's a powerful message.
You're right. Maybe, that's what needs to happen. Change the names of more schools not just Forrest! How do you feel about Black Panther Elementary instead of Alamacani? Or, Elijah Muhammad Middle School instead of Fletcher? I'm sure the the people who are soooo tired of being politically correct will jump at the opportunity! Plus, history and heritage and stuff.
QuoteSlavery was never about 'hate, racism or even oppression,' since long before the Roman Empire slaves of every shade were bought and sold for economic reasons.
I'm not sure of your point here except "when in rome do the as the romans do"? Are you saying look at that bastion of all morality, Rome, if they did it's okay?
I'm not sure how you have slavery with out oppression? And, I'm not sure how "economic reasons" negates or disqualifies "hate, racism or even oppression". Do tell...
Quote from: Tacachale on August 28, 2013, 04:45:18 PM
^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.
Keep in mind that many who are seen to be venerating the Confederacy are actually honoring the people in their lives/families who fought a battle the felt strongly enough to lose their lives over. I am speaking in the sense of just honoring the people as opposed to the Confederate manifesto of the time. Having had several family members who fought in the Civil War and died doing so, the fact that they fought for something that I will never be able to embrace does not lessen the valor of their convictions in their own eyes. I also had some who fought on the side of the North and feel no differently toward them or their personal sacrifice.
I think it is always important at times like this to realize that there were attitudes throughout the nation and even on the part of Lincoln himself that Blacks would never be equal to Whites. The same was even true in the original constitution in which some wanted to include words protecting the right to keep slaves.
I think it is just fine to honor our fathers who fought for their homes and their lives. No problem.
Naming a school after the founder of KKK is a different matter altogether. IMHO. Especially surrounding the circumstances. Especially involving the children, those whose self-esteem needs a boost the most.
It's a humiliation to put it mildly.
(Which I suspect was the intention when it was named).
Quote from: sheclown on August 28, 2013, 06:23:55 PM
I think it is just fine to honor our fathers who fought for their homes and their lives. No problem.
Naming a school after the founder of KKK is a different matter altogether. IMHO. Especially surrounding the circumstances. Especially involving the children, those whose self-esteem needs a boost the most.
It's a humiliation to put it mildly.
(Which I suspect was the intention when it was named).
Indeed.
Quote from: DirtRoadGurl on August 27, 2013, 03:41:34 PM
So i have a question since we have a African American ( Black ) President should they have to change it from The White House to The Black House?? I do not understand why they would even consider changing the name of a high school just because of the sheer fact of the History behind it. There is alot of things that was ok to do and say back it the early days. That is the reason it is called History right? But yet in our School system they do not say the Pledge of Allegiance and can not say Prayer any longer.I know we did when i was in school. But yet they are starting to make our kids learn about muslim and other religions. Am I the only one that sees a bigger Problem in our school systems then the name of a School? But yet this is what our country has come to, lets worry about a small issue to cover up the bigger issues. I stand for the name of the high school that has been in this city since the 50's.
....Apparently prayer and the Pledge did nothing to help your grammar and spelling and even less to open your mind. I would love to break down the idiocy of this post sentence by sentence but instead I will say...Go away racist troll.
Therein lays a great point Cheshire Cat, if people knew the true history of Lincoln and many of his ideas, his image would be of our money in a heartbeat.
Let's also not forget that the 'Great Emancipator' fully endorsed and ramped up another war, not a war about 'rights', 'slaves' or 'freedom' but a war of EXTERMINATION on our American Indian population. Where are the calls for revoking his memory? We've made this racist man into a god. Lincoln would have rounded up every Black man and woman back onto the ships and dump them in Africa, though many had never been there and had no idea of the languages or cultures.
I just don't think the focus on military genius is a bad thing. Be it Grant slaughtering repeated divisions of his own army but winning through attrition, or Field Marshall Erwin Rommel reading Forrest's tactics.
A bit more detail:
Forrest is often reviled for his pre-war activity of trading slaves, and it's true that not only was he a slave trader, he was quite successful at it.
Forrest was also determined that slaves should be treated humanely. He had a list of men that he refused to sell slaves to because they were known as cruel masters. Forrest also allowed newly purchased slaves a measure of self-determination that was unheard of in that day and age. He would give the slave a pass to move about town with the instructions to "find the man you would like to be your master, and I will then sell you to that man."
Nathan Bedford Forrest: The Slave Owner
It would seem that Forrest was well-regarded by his own slaves as well. When he formed his own cavalry unit, he offered his male slaves the opportunity to ride with him and fight for the Confederacy. In return, if they served honorably, they would be given their freedom at war's end, win or lose. Forty-five men accepted the offer, and 44 stayed with him through the end of the war. In 1863, well before the end of the war, Forrest drew up the papers freeing them all.
Of these 45 newly freed men, 44 stayed with him and continued to serve in the Confederate Army until the end of the war. The one other man returned home to nurse his dying wife. In 1876, Forrest wrote, "Those boys stayed with me...and better Confederates did not live...
But let's focus on the word 'KLAN' and what it means today and completely throw out its immediate post war purpose. When it turned racist, Forrest bailed and actually served to bust it up.
But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 28, 2013, 06:36:17 PM
Therein lays a great point Cheshire Cat, if people knew the true history of Lincoln and many of his ideas, his image would be of our money in a heartbeat.
Let's also not forget that the 'Great Emancipator' fully endorsed and ramped up another war, not a war about 'rights', 'slaves' or 'freedom' but a war of EXTERMINATION on our American Indian population. Where are the calls for revoking his memory? We've made this racist man into a god. Lincoln would have rounded up every Black man and woman back onto the ships and dump them in Africa, though many had never been there and had no idea of the languages or cultures.
I just don't think the focus on military genius is a bad thing. Be it Grant slaughtering repeated divisions of his own army but winning through attrition, or Field Marshall Erwin Rommel reading Forrest's tactics.
A bit more detail:
Forrest is often reviled for his pre-war activity of trading slaves, and it's true that not only was he a slave trader, he was quite successful at it.
Forrest was also determined that slaves should be treated humanely. He had a list of men that he refused to sell slaves to because they were known as cruel masters. Forrest also allowed newly purchased slaves a measure of self-determination that was unheard of in that day and age. He would give the slave a pass to move about town with the instructions to "find the man you would like to be your master, and I will then sell you to that man."
Nathan Bedford Forrest: The Slave Owner
It would seem that Forrest was well-regarded by his own slaves as well. When he formed his own cavalry unit, he offered his male slaves the opportunity to ride with him and fight for the Confederacy. In return, if they served honorably, they would be given their freedom at war's end, win or lose. Forty-five men accepted the offer, and 44 stayed with him through the end of the war. In 1863, well before the end of the war, Forrest drew up the papers freeing them all.
Of these 45 newly freed men, 44 stayed with him and continued to serve in the Confederate Army until the end of the war. The one other man returned home to nurse his dying wife. In 1876, Forrest wrote, "Those boys stayed with me...and better Confederates did not live...
But let's focus on the word 'KLAN' and what it means today and completely throw out its immediate post war purpose. When it turned racist, Forrest bailed and actually served to bust it up.
But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!
Are you calling BS because the Klan was only part of the problem and not the issue in it's entirety?
I think "Mayor Alvin Brown Presents PS #241" has a nice ring to it.
Quote from: HangingMoth on August 28, 2013, 06:55:31 PM
I think "Mayor Alvin Brown Presents PS #241" has a nice ring to it.
I don't. lol There actually is no good reason for most buildings to be named after folks living or dead. In some cases perhaps, but not most.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 28, 2013, 06:40:24 PM
But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!
Are you calling BS because the Klan was only part of the problem and not the issue in it's entirety?
[/quote]
The man actually had a pretty incredible life and went from ignorant poverty to slave trader and Confederate General. He wrote the book on MODERN calvary tactics. Became a early Civil Rights leader, asked forgiveness and went against the grain of Memphis to assist Black families lift themselves from oblivion.
The BS is the singular focus on his brief time with the Klan, which by the way has never been proved to any satisfaction.
QuoteThe man actually had a pretty incredible life and went from ignorant poverty to slave trader and Confederate General. He wrote the book on MODERN calvary tactics. Became a early Civil Rights leader, asked forgiveness and went against the grain of Memphis to assist Black families lift themselves from oblivion.
Is this the reason his name was given to this school? If not........
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 28, 2013, 07:47:24 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 28, 2013, 06:40:24 PM
But let's just focus on the Klan... POLITICALLY CORRECT BULL SHIT!
Are you calling BS because the Klan was only part of the problem and not the issue in it's entirety?
QuoteThe man actually had a pretty incredible life and went from ignorant poverty to slave trader and Confederate General. He wrote the book on MODERN calvary tactics. Became a early Civil Rights leader, asked forgiveness and went against the grain of Memphis to assist Black families lift themselves from oblivion.
The BS is the singular focus on his brief time with the Klan, which by the way has never been proved to any satisfaction.
Can you expound upon the statement of him becoming an early civil rights leader? I didn't know about the Memphis history which is interesting but was he ever connected in any real way to Jacksonville's history that you know of? Just inquiring, I really don't know the answer and you appear to have done some research.
^LOL, Ock would make it his personal quest to rip down every one of Grant's statues.
Quote from: stephendare on August 28, 2013, 08:26:37 PM
Quote from: sheclown on August 28, 2013, 06:23:55 PM
I think it is just fine to honor our fathers who fought for their homes and their lives. No problem.
Naming a school after the founder of KKK is a different matter altogether. IMHO. Especially surrounding the circumstances. Especially involving the children, those whose self-esteem needs a boost the most.
It's a humiliation to put it mildly.
(Which I suspect was the intention when it was named).
Exactly. It would be like erecting a statue to Grant in every Confederate Graveyard in the South.
Truth be known I kind of feel the same way about the Andrew Jackson statue downtown and he was a southern hero to many. These men and their attitudes do reflect a part of our history that was actually pretty ugly, that much is true. I just think it is up to us as a society to decide who in history we should honor and celebrate. I have a hard time honoring a guy who lied to American Indians and walked them to their death, but maybe that is just me. (yes, I am trying snark again) The underlying issue is who do we honor and why?
Quote from: stephendare on August 28, 2013, 08:34:36 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 28, 2013, 08:32:58 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2013, 08:30:41 PM
^LOL, Ock would make it his personal quest to rip down every one of Grant's statues.
Well just replace them with a Statue of Sherman, torch in hand.
the eternal flame of freedom. You know. Sherman was a liberator. I can't imagine what kind of problem confederate heritage aficionados would have with a natural leader who believed in freedom.
Like Forrest, he did have a change of heart in deciding not to torch Savannah.
Is there a reason that the issue of a name change for the Nathan Forrest school could not be included on the 2015 election ballot? That may be the most fair way to deal with the issue. Let the voters decide.
I agree Cheshire Cat. I don't see why this couldn't be resolved via referendum either. In terms of defending one's heritage I still have to mention that Nathan Bedford Forrest, and I mean no respect to lifetime southerners, was not a part of any of your heritage. He was a member of the elite class who largely left the south after the Civil War(read 'The Saharra of the Bozart - H.L. Mencken). In fact the majority of white southerners were defending their "homeland" within their "homeland" but that was not the reason for the Civil War in reality.
The war was over the elite's right to own other people as property - the common southerner was only a bit player in that game. Really in all truth the common southerner had no more interest fighting for the elite's right to keep slaves than they have now fighting wars to keep the dollars flowing into the pockets of the Military Industrial Complex.
The upper-class southerner in antibellum society rarely gave poor southerners a second thought unless, of course, it came to the idea that their free labor would be taken away. Then the idea of "state's rights" had to be sold to the poor southern whites in order to give them a reason to suspect they had an interest in fighting for individuals who had very little to do with them. Forrest was one of these people.
This is a children's school we are talking about.
Name a park after him, put up a brown road sign, who cares?
But not a school where children are mandated to attend -- those same children whose "heritage" includes being victimized by the KKK.
NO!!!!
Stop trying to do this and just accept it for what it has been since 1963
Considering the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington, I'm sure people thought the same about their Civil Rights fight in 1963. Speaking of 1963, did this school really open the same year as the March on Washington and the best name we could come up with was the founder of the KKK? Wow, no wonder those coming here from other areas consider this situation so backward.
Robert (or anyone at MJ), is there any chance that Professor Stoll might be willing to write an article presenting his research to the MJ readers? I can't recall whether or not they had any town hall meetings or community workshops when they tried to change the name a few years ago. They might have, but I just don't remember it.
Quote from: Jameson on August 28, 2013, 11:05:34 AM
Back to the Forrest issue. How come there's not more students involved? The article states that Stoll once used it as an assignment to a group of students, but why just a small group? Why aren't all of the students rallying to get the name changed as it represents them? Do they simply not know the history of Nathan Bedford Forrest? Do they just not care?
It just seems to me that if the students got more involved maybe more people would take note and the name might actually get changed.
I can only speak for myself, and I haven't set foot in that place since about 1986 or 87. I don't remember any of my history classes covering N.B. Forrest, and as kids at the school we really didn't pay any attention to the name. Typical teenagers, I guess. By the time we grew up and started reflecting on things, maybe we were desensitized to the name. As someone who went to school there and grew up with the name, it just seemed normal.
Shouldnt we call the local chapters of the KKK and tell them?
Quote from: Garden guy on August 29, 2013, 09:51:17 AM
Shouldnt we call the local chapters of the KKK and tell them?
Actually, being a naive Yankee (we do have a "Klan Tree" in my hometown, but think it was actually used once and most of its history is urban myth) does the KKK still operate? Is there still such an organization or some form of what it was? If so, that would certainly be a factor in changing the name.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2013, 07:57:41 AM
Considering the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington, I'm sure people thought the same about their Civil Rights fight in 1963. Speaking of 1963, did this school really open the same year as the March on Washington and the best name we could come up with was the founder of the KKK? Wow, no wonder those coming here from other areas consider this situation so backward.
No, the school opened in 1959. However, it's even worse than what you're saying. The name of this school, and those of several others that opened around that same time, were deliberately chosen as a swipe at the civil rights movement, as they were all-white schools established in defiance of the Brown vs. the Board of Education ruling.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 28, 2013, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 28, 2013, 04:45:18 PM
^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.
Keep in mind that many who are seen to be venerating the Confederacy are actually honoring the people in their lives/families who fought a battle the felt strongly enough to lose their lives over. I am speaking in the sense of just honoring the people as opposed to the Confederate manifesto of the time. Having had several family members who fought in the Civil War and died doing so, the fact that they fought for something that I will never be able to embrace does not lessen the valor of their convictions in their own eyes. I also had some who fought on the side of the North and feel no differently toward them or their personal sacrifice.
I think it is always important at times like this to realize that there were attitudes throughout the nation and even on the part of Lincoln himself that Blacks would never be equal to Whites. The same was even true in the original constitution in which some wanted to include words protecting the right to keep slaves.
Sure, but that's not what's happening here. There's no local history tied to Forrest and that's not why the name was chosen.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 29, 2013, 11:16:39 AM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 28, 2013, 05:12:14 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 28, 2013, 04:45:18 PM
^Not to mention the many of us who do share that heritage but who don't base their Southernness on venerating the Confederacy.
Keep in mind that many who are seen to be venerating the Confederacy are actually honoring the people in their lives/families who fought a battle the felt strongly enough to lose their lives over. I am speaking in the sense of just honoring the people as opposed to the Confederate manifesto of the time. Having had several family members who fought in the Civil War and died doing so, the fact that they fought for something that I will never be able to embrace does not lessen the valor of their convictions in their own eyes. I also had some who fought on the side of the North and feel no differently toward them or their personal sacrifice.
I think it is always important at times like this to realize that there were attitudes throughout the nation and even on the part of Lincoln himself that Blacks would never be equal to Whites. The same was even true in the original constitution in which some wanted to include words protecting the right to keep slaves.
Sure, but that's not what's happening here. There's no local history tied to Forrest and that's not why the name was chosen.
For some it may be what they perceive is happening here. I agree though that it isn't. Forrest does not appear to be tied to Jacksonville it anyway. It's also pretty clear considering the state of racial struggles in 1959, the naming of the school was meant to be an in your face (white guy we are in charge) statement to the Black community. Whoever this man was, whether he was KKK and then became a civil rights activist. He has nothing to do with our local history other than his name on a school here becoming a point of contention, insult and frustration. For me this is not a situation of political correctness. Changing the name to me at least says that we get this man is a polarizing historical figure and that alone is enough to remove his name from a school or any government building. It also sends the signal that we are doing our best to move past a GOB mentality. We have a ways to go in regard to changing that local mindset.
This name issue comes up over and over. Lets resolve it and put the issue of changing the name of the school on a ballot and let the "voters" decide. That is the democratic thing to do I believe.
It should be the voters of that particular school district.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 29, 2013, 03:46:09 PM
It should be the voters of that particular school district.
Why not city/county wide? Would be a great chance to see what a cross section of Jacksonville thinks about this type of issue.
Ajax there have been a few meetings and Professor Stoll and I will be collecting signatures for a petition on Saturday at the Riverside Arts Market in the morning before the godforsaken heat sets in.
https://www.change.org/petitions/duval-public-schools-no-more-kkk-high-school?share_id=fkrbTIvXtB&utm_campaign=share_button_chat&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition
I'm not necessarily against a Forrest High School name change but to be honest, I really don't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other. It does seem that we live in an overly PC 'digging dirt on all history's past' world. Since Andrew Jackson did that dirt in the past, maybe we should rename Jacksonville 'PCville'. It's getting to the point that if someone merely was reported stealing an item from a general store in the 1800's as a kid, a replacement name should be considered by those actions alone....
Quote from: theduvalprogressive on August 29, 2013, 07:24:23 PM
Ajax there have been a few meetings and Professor Stoll and I will be collecting signatures for a petition on Saturday at the Riverside Arts Market in the morning before the godforsaken heat sets in.
Thank you - I figured there had been meetings, but I missed them.
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
apache, please note that this doesnt get included in my top 10, but it is an entrant into my top 50.
Okay, hypothetically all of the Confederate named schools are renamed in Jax, then what's next Stephen? It's like that Jay Z song, liberals are always "On to the Next One" to make overly PC. What about the 'Trail of Tears' thing with Andrew Jackson, should the city be renamed for PC reasons? Please answer the questions Stephen. Who am I kidding, liberals never answer any reasonable debating questions, because anyone who challenges their questions are morons apparently....
Over 36k people have signed the online petition since July started by Omotayo Richmond. This is from people all over.
What do we look like to the world?
Quote from: Apache on August 30, 2013, 06:57:56 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2013, 01:02:25 PM
Quote from: I-10east on August 30, 2013, 10:18:14 AM
I'm not necessarily against a Forrest High School name change but to be honest, I really don't have a strong opinion about it one way or the other. It does seem that we live in an overly PC 'digging dirt on all history's past' world. Since Andrew Jackson did that dirt in the past, maybe we should rename Jacksonville 'PCville'. It's getting to the point that if someone merely was reported stealing an item from a general store in the 1800's as a kid, a replacement name should be considered by those actions alone....
apache, please note that this doesnt get included in my top 10, but it is an entrant into my top 50.
So Noted.
But that one wasn't that bad, clearly now you're just picking on I-10 because you like him.
I will say, as a new member to MJ, I am looking forward to the annual forum posting awards ceremony where we get to see the top 10 lists and other interesting awards get handed out. I'm sure you guys have such an event.
PARTY...WE NEED A PARTY...AND AWARDS...WE NEED AWARDS
I'll make 100 cupcakes.
Unfortunately those that made the decision back then to name this public school are the foundation of much of our city today and many many ideas die hard..this city is marked with KKK tags out on the northside..probably just kids but thats really the issue...babies are still being taught...
Maybe instead of petitioning to change the name, people should be more concerned that this school seems to be failing. I have no direct experience with the school, however, they received a "D" in 2010 and I don't think they have improved much since. Dr. Vitti should be petitioned to see to it that the failing schools in Jax make a turn around. If the name needs to be changed, change it, I'm pretty sure the historians of the "war of northern aggression" won't let poor Nathan's name be dishonored or misrepresented. The past is the past and history is mostly grey with very few instances of pure black and white, right and wrong. The students deserve a better school whether it remains Forrest High or not.
It's superficial BS. The fruit is rotting on the vine and it doesn't matter whether you pronounce it "tomato" or "tomahto." It's sad to see young people flounder and not be successful. There is definitely larger educational issues in Jax that need to be dealt with.
It really should be renamed LCDR Scott Speicher HS. The first American casualty of the Persian Gulf War. A memorial already resides in the front office of Forrest and by god, with today's attention spans, 1991 was long enough ago to also qualify as ancient history.
Of course one day not far from now, the next generation of intertrolling iToobers will decry this name as too militaristic and warmongering so let's just name it Beige Gaia Education Collective. There...done.
Quote from: stephendare on August 30, 2013, 11:47:40 PM
Quote from: HangingMoth on August 30, 2013, 11:07:18 PM
It's superficial BS. The fruit is rotting on the vine and it doesn't matter whether you pronounce it "tomato" or "tomahto." It's sad to see young people flounder and not be successful. There is definitely larger educational issues in Jax that need to be dealt with.
sure. so lets start with world hunger before we think about women voting?
I would put nuclear disarmament before either of these to issues. To stay on topic, there are many dedicated people who do understand that our educational institutions are in need of help. The issue of what school's name is printed on your diploma is irrelevant if you have low testing scores and a high drop out rate. It's not about trying to solve the world problems from the top down rather giving young people the best opportunities to succeed in life. Do you think a school's name is more important than the students it produces?
^Literally no one thinks that. This is a false dilemma.
Can't we have both?
An educational system worthy of our children
AND
Names which reflect the respect and care we have for the students?
^Yes. This isn't an either-or proposition. And it's certainly not like the name change would put the school in *worse* shape.
I wasn't stating it as an either, or situation, more a question of importance. Like I said, if the school name needs to be changed, if it will help the morale and pride of the school, then change it. If the school continues to struggle then what's the point, that's all.
Quote from: HangingMoth on August 31, 2013, 02:51:55 PM
I wasn't stating it as an either, or situation, more a question of importance. Like I said, if the school name needs to be changed, if it will help the morale and pride of the school, then change it. If the school continues to struggle then what's the point, that's all.
Jacksonville's schools need help.
Please join, Share, and Sign the Petition on the Page. Thank you...
https://www.facebook.com/renamenathanbedfordforresthighschoolinjax?notif_t=page_new_likes
I have already signed. ;)
Quote from: Tacachale on August 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
^Literally no one thinks that. This is a false dilemma.
The straw man does.
I don't think the school name is that big a deal either way but I don't understand the strong attachment to the name, other than "it's always had that name." Forrest was not an important local historical figure and there are many, many such figures that do not have the baggage of being the founder of the KKK. I've read about Forrest - yes, his place in history is far more complicated and nuanced than "founder of the KKK," but I know I have had at least one out of town friend ask me, incredulous, if it was true that Jax had a school name after (here comes that phrase again) the founder of the KKK. "Well, yeah, but..."
Hanz Tanzler. Dorcas Drake. "Jacksonville Heights High School." These all seem like better names. And I'm a born and raised native Jacksonvillian, not an out of towner because I know we don't like anybody from someplace else telling us what needs to be fixed. But like I said, I guess it's not that big a deal either way - there are, after all, bigger problems that need fixing.
Quote from: Bativac on September 03, 2013, 01:31:50 PM
I don't think the school name is that big a deal either way but I don't understand the strong attachment to the name, other than "it's always had that name." Forrest was not an important local historical figure and there are many, many such figures that do not have the baggage of being the founder of the KKK. I've read about Forrest - yes, his place in history is far more complicated and nuanced than "founder of the KKK," but I know I have had at least one out of town friend ask me, incredulous, if it was true that Jax had a school name after (here comes that phrase again) the founder of the KKK. "Well, yeah, but..."
Hanz Tanzler. Dorcas Drake. "Jacksonville Heights High School." These all seem like better names. And I'm a born and raised native Jacksonvillian, not an out of towner because I know we don't like anybody from someplace else telling us what needs to be fixed. But like I said, I guess it's not that big a deal either way - there are, after all, bigger problems that need fixing.
Perhaps there may be bigger problems in the eyes of some when it comes to a name change for this school. However when an issue comes up over and over the way this one does, it is a clear indicator that there is a serious problem in the eye's of many that has not been properly resolved. A name change is doable and by the looks of the current petition, thousands want one. Time to stop kicking this can down the road and change the darn name. Forrest had no history or connection to Jacksonville. If we are going to honor someone by naming a school after them, let's at least make sure that person led an honorable life and perhaps even consider that person also have a history of positive influence in Jacksonville.
Quote from: KenFSU on September 03, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
^Literally no one thinks that. This is a false dilemma.
The straw man does.
Yeah that last line was a little much; "is the school name more important than the students,"or something. I'm all for changing the name, signed the petition and everything, hopefully it won't take an act of congress to get it done so we can move on.
Quote from: HangingMoth on September 03, 2013, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on September 03, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
^Literally no one thinks that. This is a false dilemma.
The straw man does.
Yeah that last line was a little much; "is the school name more important than the students,"or something. I'm all for changing the name, signed the petition and everything, hopefully it won't take an act of congress to get it done so we can move on.
I think the only one equating the name change and student performance here is you HM and I have yet to see anyone else claim that one thing has anything at all to do with the other. These are separate issues and the issue of improvements to our school system has been heavily discussed here and elsewhere. The two issues are in no way mutually exclusive.
and this thread clearly explains why dcps no longer names schools after people.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 03, 2013, 03:42:05 PM
Quote from: HangingMoth on September 03, 2013, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on September 03, 2013, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 31, 2013, 08:29:34 AM
^Literally no one thinks that. This is a false dilemma.
The straw man does.
Yeah that last line was a little much; "is the school name more important than the students,"or something. I'm all for changing the name, signed the petition and everything, hopefully it won't take an act of congress to get it done so we can move on.
I think the only one equating the name change and student performance here is you HM and I have yet to see anyone else claim that one thing has anything at all to do with the other. These are separate issues and the issue of improvements to our school system has been heavily discussed here and elsewhere. The two issues are in no way mutually exclusive.
No not equating the two, actually the opposite. It doesn't matter whatever name you call a school if it is not being successful at what it is intended to do, educate young people. But like I said no argument here about changing the name, and I liked your idea about putting it on a ballot. Better let the people decide rather than the city.
it's not just dcps. many cities have been going this route as well when it comes to naming public places, parks, bridges, etc. It seems it is far to easy to apply today's morality on the past, which is completely unfair to the past. 60+ years from now people will be able to find fault in the names chosen today and wonder what the heck we were thinking. the use of personal names usually has the greatest chance of becoming an ethics lightning rod in the future. If you dig into most of our country's forefathers pasts (heck even our city founders), you can find something to be offended by base on today's standards. the era is which one is born has the greatest impact on what types of skeletons they may be hiding.
I'm reposting what I wrote a few pages earlier. It was directed at Ock but he's not feeling well so I'll divert the questions to i-10east, cayohueso and anyone else who thinks it's just "political correctness" to change the name.
"Do You think the fine families of Ponte Vedra would be okay if we developed a Nat Turner Park near Ponte Vedra High? Or, maybe we should just change the name of that school to Nat Turner High School of Leadership Development? Nat Turner was a leader amongst the oppressed. That's a powerful message.
You're right. Maybe, that's what needs to happen. Change the names of more schools not just Forrest! How do you feel about Huey Newton Elementary (founder of the black panthers) instead of Alamacani? Or, Elijah Muhammad Middle School instead of Fletcher? I'm sure the the people who are soooo tired of being politically correct will jump at the opportunity! Plus, history and heritage and stuff. "
(http://i.imgur.com/lMCex8t.jpg)
Quote from: JaxNative68 on September 03, 2013, 05:07:32 PM
it's not just dcps. many cities have been going this route as well when it comes to naming public places, parks, bridges, etc. It seems it is far to easy to apply today's morality on the past, which is completely unfair to the past. 60+ years from now people will be able to find fault in the names chosen today and wonder what the heck we were thinking. the use of personal names usually has the greatest chance of becoming an ethics lightning rod in the future. If you dig into most of our country's forefathers pasts (heck even our city founders), you can find something to be offended by base on today's standards. the era is which one is born has the greatest impact on what types of skeletons they may be hiding.
I don't think it is about applying today's standards to yesterday's choices. It's about growing beyond the type of mentality that would name a school as an in your face insult to the Black community. At some point we must acknowledge poor judgments in the past and learn from them. Renaming the school not only says that the people of today "get it" but it also says that we are willing to move beyond racist attitudes going forward.
Like many issues concerning the black community, it seems like this whole Forrest thing irks local white liberals (because after all, liberal whites 'represent' the face of the black community) more than anything. I don't see any enraged black folk marching up and down Firestone Rd. Sure anyone can make a petition, and say 'this man was the white Devil etc..'. As long as the tilt is FAAARRR left for the liberals, everything is a-okay; Some of yall would probably be cool with naming a school after some nutcase like Edward Snowden, or Christopher Dorner, SMH....
^^^Couldn't you come up with something that resembles mature content Stephen? Really, name calling??? I must've said something right that hit a nerve sense you stooped to your usual low level. You'll be trying to change the name of the city if you had your way.
^^^Having a clear stance on something that may be unpopular = trolling, okay....
Quote from: I-10east on September 03, 2013, 07:50:59 PM
Like many issues concerning the black community, it seems like this whole Forrest thing irks local white liberals (because after all, liberal whites 'represent' the face of the black community) more than anything. I don't see any enraged black folk marching up and down Firestone Rd. Sure anyone can make a petition, and say 'this man was the white Devil etc..'. As long as the tilt is FAAARRR left for the liberals, everything is a-okay; Some of yall would probably be cool with naming a school after some nutcase like Edward Snowden, or Christopher Dorner, SMH....
I dunno I-10, I believe you did mention once that you are Black but my guess is that you are in your late 20's or 30's? Correct me if I am wrong. I am not Black but have spent a number of years working closely with my dear friends in Jacksonville who suffered through the struggles of the 50's, 60's and beyond and to give their time and experiences in Jacksonville the respect that they are due. Truth of the matter is that many whites have always been disgusted by the rancor and hatred with which the Black community has been treated. I do believe that if you came from the time of these injustices, you would more readily understand that this is not about political correctness and is really about turning our back as a city on the ugly side of racism. Yes, that coming from and "old" not "elderly" white lady who doesn't like being called a liberal most of the time, just a free thinker. lol
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2013, 08:05:13 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 03, 2013, 08:03:44 PM
^^^Having a clear stance on something that may be unpopular = trolling, okay....
adding an uninformed and racist opinion to an already contentious issue = trolling.
Why not stick to the sports threads where no one notices this kind of thing?
How I'm I being being a 'uninformed troll' that happens to be 'racist' against _____ race? Explain that? Those are some strong buzz words to throw around. Are you saying that white liberals don't have a strong presence in the black community? How come a school like my alma-mater Raines High isn't boycotting games against Confederate named schools? Use attack words when you disagree with another, typical liberal. Conservatives have their tactual-like mind games also.
You still have yet to explain why I'm offbase. FWIW, I don't like arguing on posts like this in which I already had a take, but when someone brings up your name, I sorta have an obligation to reply.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 03, 2013, 08:08:42 PM
I dunno I-10, I believe you did mention once that you are Black but my guess is that you are in your late 20's or 30's? Correct me if I am wrong. I am not Black but have spent a number of years working closely with my dear friends in Jacksonville who suffered through the struggles of the 50's, 60's and beyond and to give their time and experiences in Jacksonville the respect that they are due. Truth of the matter is that many whites have always been disgusted by the rancor and hatred with which the Black community has been treated. I do believe that if you came from the time of these injustices, you would more readily understand that this is not about political correctness and is really about turning our back as a city on the ugly side of racism. Yes, that coming from and "old" not "elderly" white lady who doesn't like being called a liberal most of the time, just a free thinker. lol
Thanks for the very cordial post Cheshire. I'm a 36 year old black man that haven't experienced a ton of racism like my Mom have in that Jim Crow era. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that all non-black people involved in the black community are white liberals. Although IMO it's sort a waste of money, I'm not really against a Forrest name change, but the continue PC-overload in the future is what scares the hell outta me; Because of the 'Trail of Tears' change the name of the city, knee-jerk reaction this, knee jerk reaction that.... When will it stop?
Continue on with your attack buzz words, and faux outrage Stephen.
^^^
Quote from: I-10east on September 03, 2013, 08:03:44 PM
^^^Having a clear stance on something that may be unpopular = trolling, okay....
Quote from: I-10east on September 03, 2013, 08:37:32 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 03, 2013, 08:08:42 PM
I dunno I-10, I believe you did mention once that you are Black but my guess is that you are in your late 20's or 30's? Correct me if I am wrong. I am not Black but have spent a number of years working closely with my dear friends in Jacksonville who suffered through the struggles of the 50's, 60's and beyond and to give their time and experiences in Jacksonville the respect that they are due. Truth of the matter is that many whites have always been disgusted by the rancor and hatred with which the Black community has been treated. I do believe that if you came from the time of these injustices, you would more readily understand that this is not about political correctness and is really about turning our back as a city on the ugly side of racism. Yes, that coming from and "old" not "elderly" white lady who doesn't like being called a liberal most of the time, just a free thinker. lol
Thanks for the very cordial post Cheshire. I'm a 36 year old black man that haven't experienced a ton of racism like my Mom have in that Jim Crow era. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that all non-black people involved in the black community are white liberals. Although IMO it's sort a waste of money, I'm not really against a Forrest name change, but the continue PC-overload in the future is what scares the hell outta me; Because of the 'Trail of Tears' change the name of the city, knee-jerk reaction this, knee jerk reaction that.... When will it stop?
Well then by my standards your are indeed young. :) I can understand the angst with the political correctness we are so often confronted with today it seems at almost every turn. In this case, I honestly believe the situation goes beyond the workings of a PC mindset and embraces the attitude that once we as a collective people understand that past racist actions or decisions are hurtful to many (especially the older folks who lived the struggle) it is no big deal to change a name on a school when in fact that name "embraces" past hurts and serves as a constant reminder of how badly some among us were treated. I see it as a step into the light of understanding as opposed to bending to a PC attitude. ;) As far as changing "everything" that won't happen, especially in the case of our city's name, but other issues can be looked at and decided on a case by case basis and if the majority feels a change is prudent, then why not if it brings peace of mind and sense of justice? I don't see that as a problem in the big scheme of life.
Quote
Petition grows to change school's name
Students, community voice concern over Nathan Forrest High School's name
Author: Tarik Minor, Anchor-reporter, tminor@wjxt.com
New push for name change
DUVAL COUNTY, Fla. -
Michelle Nance graduated from Nathan Forrest High School in 1987 and told Channel 4 that she wants her kids to graduate from the same school with the same name.
"Our history made us who we are, that's our heritage, our background, it's who we are," said Nance. "It's just like Robert E. Lee, Ed White, Nathan Forrest."
Nathan Forrest was a lieutenant general in the Confederate army and he also served as the first Grand Wizard of the KKK, before distancing himself from the Klan. Some parents say it's all part of history, but an online petition calling for a name change is gaining popularity.
"There are other people that we can look forward to, more positive. It's not about hate, so to name someone to glorify it is absolutely wrong," said Kim Mower.
"One thing I've been talking a lot about is the need to modernize Jacksonville," Dr. Nikolai Vitti told Channel 4 Tuesday night. "If we want folks to come here, whether it's business, it's high level employees to Jacksonville, names of schools, names of parks, it all matters."
Vitti, the Duval County School Superintendent, told Channel 4 that a formal request for a name change hasn't been brought to the school board, but if it did, Vitti said organizers will have his support.
"It needs to go through the leadership council at the school level, work through that process, and then ultimately given to the school board for a recommended change," said Vitti.
Parents and students who were at Forrest High School Tuesday said they are torn on the issue.
"Maybe they shouldn't do anything, this is part of our history, maybe they should keep it," said Melissa Chouse.
The petition can be found on change.org.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/petition-grows-to-change-schools-name/-/475880/21767172/-/2kvbj8z/-/index.html
FCN posted a story about it on their Facebook page this morning. The comments are about as bad as you think they would be,
Gee whiz, just change the name of the school to honor any of the recent hero veteran's from the area and be done with this mess. Forrest will live on in the history books for gosh sake.
Call it "forest for the trees"
as in...can't see.
The TU has an article about this issue now:
QuoteA Jacksonville man's attempt to change the controversial name of Nathan B. Forrest High School is quickly gaining widespread online support because of a social media campaign.
Omotayo Richmond argues that having the Jacksonville school named after the first grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan is preventing black students from being proud to graduate from the school. With a name change, he said, "there'll be a sense of pride coming from the black students of the school there."
Richmond said he started his petition on Change.org at the start of August and it already has gathered more than 71,000 signatures. Some signatures come from Jacksonville residents, but most come from all over the nation.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-09-05/story/jacksonville-man-starts-petition-change-forrest-high-school-name
QuotePosted: 5:26 a.m. Thursday, Sept. 5, 2013
Thousands Fight to change name of local high school
By Kevin Rafuse
JACKSONVILLE, Fl. —
He was a confederate general and grand wizard of the KKK.
And has a local high school named after him.
Many outraged residents are calling for Nathan B. Forrest High School to change names saying the name is racially insensitive.
Thousands of people have signed an online petition formally requesting the name to be changed. The petition aims for 75,000 signatures. Organizer Omotayo Richmond argues the name sends the wrong message and represents a man who enslaved, slaughtered and disenfranchised blacks in America.
This isn't the first time there's been a call for change. In 2006, people suggested the name be changed to Eartha M.M. White -- after a Jacksonville philanthropist.
In 2008, the Duval County School Board voted 5-2 to keep the same name. Current Superintendent Nikolai Vitti says he has no problem with change, as long it goes through the proper channels.
Students say the name doesn't affect them and they just want to go to school.
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/thousands-fight-change-name-local-high-school/nZnJQ/
Is there a negative economic/image impact for our overall region that's reinforced nationwide when we vehemently fight to preserve Jim Crow era discriminatory-based decisions? Just wondering, because I travel a lot and I've fielded quite a few questions over the years about issues like this. In fact, the Forrest thing came up in a conversation about a month or two ago.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2013, 07:51:23 AM
Is there a negative economic/image impact for our overall region that's reinforced nationwide when we vehemently fight to preserve Jim Crow era discriminatory-based decisions? Just wondering, because I travel a lot and I've fielded quite a few questions over the years about issues like this. In fact, the Forrest thing came up in a conversation about a month or two ago.
It appears there would be. Consider the fact that many of the signatures on the petition to change the name are not from Jacksonville. People are clearly aware throughout the country.
I'm for changing it. According to the article, the procedure to change the name requires that
Quote...a petitioner or group must present the proposal to the school's advisory council and have it approved. After that, it needs another OK from the School Board.
So the issue won't be decided by a referendum. It sounds like there's quite a bit of support for changing it, so now they probably need to work on building a consensus. There are some pretty prideful people on the westside and if an attempt is not made to build consensus then some of them are going to resent what will feel like having this shoved down their throats. Some of you may say "too bad" but that could cause problems and unintended consequences in the future that could be prevented with some forethought.
For me, and for many, the name of the school was like that drunk uncle you see at Thanksgiving. Everyone else may be horrified, but I grew up with it, it seemed normal, and I got used to it. Like I said before, as a student at that school, I don't remember any of us ever talking about it or being bothered by it - black kids, white kids, skaters, new wave kids. Many of my friends were 'activist-types' but the name of the school didn't push any buttons that I'm aware of. Sometimes it takes an 'outsider' to come in and open your eyes to see the things you take for granted or just don't notice.
The people opposed to the change for the most part probably fall into one of three groups: 1) racists, 2) people who oppose change because they feel that it would be PC or dishonor southern history, or 3) people who are ignorant/apathetic. I'm sure I'm oversimplifying because I think I fell somewhere between Groups 2 and 3.
You're never going to convince Group 1. You might convince a few in Group 2, and if you can avoid pushing people from Group 3 into Group 2, then you can build some consensus. I think the only way you do that is by holding some community workshops and educating people through local media.
If your only argument is that Forrest founded the KKK and that he was a bad person, that's not going to be enough. Bringing up the KKK will elicit a knee-jerk reaction on all sides. Those who oppose a name change will come back with the argument that he left the KKK, it was different back then, etc. You end up causing people to look for reasons that he should be honored and trying to justify keeping the name.
The overriding factor (for me, anyway) is that the school received its name for the wrong reasons, and the kids that go to school there should not feel ashamed of the name. As someone mentioned earlier, Forrest's name will live on in this history books. There are other, more appropriate ways to remember him. But the name of this school doesn't reflect what Jacksonville is in 2013.
I think the name will be changed, probably sooner rather than later, so now maybe it's time to also start thinking about what the new name should be since it appears that is part of the process that the School Board requires.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2013, 07:51:23 AM
Is there a negative economic/image impact for our overall region that's reinforced nationwide when we vehemently fight to preserve Jim Crow era discriminatory-based decisions? Just wondering, because I travel a lot and I've fielded quite a few questions over the years about issues like this. In fact, the Forrest thing came up in a conversation about a month or two ago.
Nope, people ask me if I've played at Sawgrass and why the Jags are so shit.
I highly doubt there's any way to quantify an economic impact, especially when you factor in the considerable cost of changing the name. But there's definitely something of an image impact, mostly locally, but also nationally as it makes us look backwards when it periodically comes up in the media.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 06, 2013, 05:12:03 PM
I highly doubt there's any way to quantify an economic impact, especially when you factor in the considerable cost of changing the name. But there's definitely something of an image impact, mostly locally, but also nationally as it makes us look backwards when it periodically comes up in the media.
I agree. The image problem exists and many a time people from other areas ask me why I stay here. I think the negative is grossly overplayed when it comes to our city which I happen to love, warts and all. I think anything that we can do to improve our image and say to the world that we are a tolerant people we should just "do it"! I believe a name change on the school will send a positive message on many levels.
Isn't our "image problem" one of the things that resulted in Wells Fargo moving their Florida headquarters to Miami a few years back? How many high paying jobs were involved with that decision? That alone should be significantly more economically than the cost stemming from the name change of a single school.
I don't think any "image problem" we might have is caused by the name of a local high school. I'm in favor of changing the name because it is inappropriate for a school building. But if we want to waste a few million electrons discussing our "image problem" or our racial divide, then we should be discussing different subjects. Everyone knows the statistics that plague our minority youth. Let's discuss that problem, which contributes greatly to our "image problem". If we can alter those statistics and the resultant crime problem, no one will care about the names on the schools.
The high school graduation rate for Duval County is 67.7%. The Florida rate is about 81%. All of the counties surrounding Duval exceed the state rate.
We need to change a whole lot more than the names of the schools.
````c
The policy for changing the name of the school has been clearly stated. The petition has been started. All that needs doing now is to sign the petition and maybe call or write the members of the school board. I have clearly stated my opinion on the matter. I prefer the name Speicher. Debating the man N. B. Forrest in this format will solve nothing.
My last post focused on the statements about the image of Jacksonville nationwide. My point, which you failed to grasp, is that the name of a Confederate General on a local school does not have nearly the impact on our "national reputation" as does the educational achievements and living conditions of our citizens today.
Your reference to the President, just as your analysis of my post, is off point and a distraction from the conversation.
As several have stated here, this subject has never been mentioned to me when traveling. I googled your seach term and found several references to a recent incident at a North Dakota high school, and only one reference to Jacksonville on the Daily Kos. There was much less discussion than what is found in this thread.
I'm good with either of those names.
Quote from: NotNow on September 06, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
I don't think any "image problem" we might have is caused by the name of a local high school....
We need to change a whole lot more than the names of the schools.
Yes we do. I never said the school name was the reason for our national image problem. While we spend time debating names of schools, human rights ordinances, billboards, etc., most look at all these trivial things as a trait of a place that's generally backwards. That's something we should be working to overcome because it impacts more issues we face then most believe.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2013, 05:36:10 PM
Isn't our "image problem" one of the things that resulted in Wells Fargo moving their Florida headquarters to Miami a few years back? How many high paying jobs were involved with that decision? That alone should be significantly more economically than the cost stemming from the name change of a single school.
I don't know about Wells Fargo, the reason HSBC left was because the 200+ they employed in Jax didn't want to work, they wanted a paycheck. The workers in Jax are good for call centers, back office support, none of this will change with a name change, actually that wouldn't even put the community on the road to change. I would be interested to know how many of those signatures are alumni, because even though I feel the name should be changed, it should really be decided by the community that sends their kids there.
Image problem?
So this community is successful in a name change and then subsequently passes 2013-384 an active piece of legislation sponsored by councilwoman Daniels that will give the National Guard Armory at 851 North Market St. to the Sons of the Confederacy for a buck a year for 10 years.
VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
Quote from: JayBird on September 06, 2013, 10:57:51 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2013, 05:36:10 PM
Isn't our "image problem" one of the things that resulted in Wells Fargo moving their Florida headquarters to Miami a few years back? How many high paying jobs were involved with that decision? That alone should be significantly more economically than the cost stemming from the name change of a single school.
I don't know about Wells Fargo, the reason HSBC left was because the 200+ they employed in Jax didn't want to work, they wanted a paycheck. The workers in Jax are good for call centers, back office support, none of this will change with a name change, actually that wouldn't even put the community on the road to change. I would be interested to know how many of those signatures are alumni, because even though I feel the name should be changed, it should really be decided by the community that sends their kids there.
Agreed
Sounds like straw man arguments though. Everybody already acknowledges that we have a heap of things to do to turn this place around for the better. For the life of me, I really don't see why some are so adamant about preserving a wrong that's been residing since 1959. However, I feel the same way when it comes to stuff like the human rights ordinance, billboard, mobility fee moratorium, Mellow Mushroom, IAW, funding DT, fixing Hemming, investing in QOL, etc. debates.
Quite frankly, we'll never advance to resolving the major issues because we fight addressing the trivial ones. To most outside of or region, all this stuff does is solidify our backwardness in the minds of those involved in the businesses and things we say we want to attract.
Looks like I accidentally deleted my previous post, which is a shame for you all, because it was sure to have been as intelligent and thought-provoking as my posts always are.
This gist of it was, I don't think it's wise to try and this to some overall "image" problem we ostensibly have, or to specific events that may or may not have been tied to image, like the Wells move. That just invites responses like "no, [x company] moved because of [other reason y]"; "yeah, well [other positive thing x] happened, so obviously this isn't important and we shouldn't mess with the status quo", and "we have [worse problem z], and we can't possibly do two things at once so we shouldn't even address this until we've solved all social ills." It plays into the hands of those who want to maintain the status quo.
The name change needs be debated on its own merits if we're going to get anywhere. What do we lose and what do we gain by making the change? We lose some money, but we don't lose "history", as this name demonstrably isn't historical. We do get to stop sending our students to a school named after a highly controversial figure. We don't get a bunch of negative press in the media periodically that puts the city in a bad light. We end this debate once and for all. Changing it doesn't mean we've solved all the world's problems, it means we've solved one problem, and moved on to another.
Actually I have heard people whom adamantly want it changed, think it should be changed, or don't really care which way it goes. I have yet to hear, on this board or anywhere, someone adamantly opposed to changing name. I'm sure they exist, guess they're not loud enough.
And in my personal opinion Jacksonville is "backwards" because to outsiders this is such a nonissue. It isn't like anyone is saying "lets fix global hunger first" as someone posted earlier, it's that in othe places this would be brought to those who make decision, a decision would be made, and it would be done. Look how many posts this thread recieved versus some truly serious, changing Jacksonville discussions. Surprisingly to those who grew up here or have been here for decades, the rest of the country doesn't care. They hear about it and they're just against racism. By if you asked someone on the street in San Francisco what they knew about Jacksonville, Florida I highly doubt the answer would be "isn't that the city that has a school named after the KKK guy?" Actually, whenever I meet someone who has never been here, if they know any thing it is a positive thing, so claiming "image" really doesn't affect this matter. "Self Image" would apply.
^And again, you're making this issue something more than it is. Not everyone in San Francisco or wherever has to know about this for it to be worth doing (or not worth doing). To that point, any negative press the city gets over this - regionally, nationally, etc. - is negative press we wouldn't have gotten if the school had another name.
I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.
Since the petitioner is from NY, maybe we can keep a lil' old with the namesake, and add a dash of Northern progressivism; None other than 'Bedford Stuyvesant South High'. The mascot would be the Fire Hydrants. Voila, I'm a miracle worker.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2013, 09:22:24 AM
Sounds like straw man arguments though. Everybody already acknowledges that we have a heap of things to do to turn this place around for the better. For the life of me, I really don't see why some are so adamant about preserving a wrong that's been residing since 1959. However, I feel the same way when it comes to stuff like the human rights ordinance, billboard, mobility fee moratorium, Mellow Mushroom, IAW, funding DT, fixing Hemming, investing in QOL, etc. debates.
Quite frankly, we'll never advance to resolving the major issues because we fight addressing the trivial ones. To most outside of or region, all this stuff does is solidify our backwardness in the minds of those involved in the businesses and things we say we want to attract.
My thoughts exactly!
Quote from: I-10east on September 07, 2013, 11:51:49 AM
Since the petitioner is from NY, maybe we can keep a lil' old with the namesake, and add a dash of Northern progressivism; None other than 'Bedford Stuyvesant South High'. The mascot would be the Fire Hydrants. Voila, I'm a miracle worker.
LMAO +1000
Quote from: JayBird on September 07, 2013, 11:02:05 AM
I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.
The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2013, 12:18:14 PM
Quote from: JayBird on September 07, 2013, 11:02:05 AM
I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.
The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.
I was reading my copy of the Resident Sept 2013 Volume 7 issue 9. Alumni hot about name change petition
Added by Editor on September 3, 2013.
Who is Brandon Kirsch and why is he stirring things up?
Alumni at the first ever 65th anniversary class reunion of Robert E. Lee High School certainly had a lot to talk about last month. The Class of 1948 most likely did much more than simply catch up with their classmates' lives; they also probably vented about the online petition currently circulating for a name change to the high school.
Just when you think the War Between the States has been firmly put to bed in the history books, someone fires another shot across the bow.
On Aug. 1 the Times-Union printed a letter from reader Brandon Kirsch of Neptune Beach, who has created a petition to change the name of Robert E. Lee High School, claiming "There are so many inspirational Americans to name a high school after. Why a slave-owning Confederate general deserves such an honor is beyond my
comprehension." Lee alumni were quick to fire back.
John Pringle, Class of 1950, sent an email to classmates about the petition and also made his opinion known with the Times-Union. "Since the attendance at Lee is now predominantly black, it is felt that the name of a slave-owning Confederate general is not an appropriate name. Would you like to see your high school named Dr. Martin Luther King High School or The Rev. Jesse Jackson High School? I for one bitterly oppose such a name change and I am sure many of you do also," read his email.
Reader responses on Jacksonville.com were varied, as were comments posted to the petition site, where 14 have petitioned for the name change and five are against the petition.
Noted one comment on the petition website, "Robert E. Lee, without exception, was the finest general in the Civil War. If he had stayed with the North and took command of the Army of the Potomac, as was offered, the war would have ended quickly. But he was a man of honor and went back to his home state to serve the South. No, don't change the name of Robert E. Lee High School. I suspect if you dug back into the background and history of everyone a school was named after you might have to change 90% of the names. Leave well enough alone. Go find something else to complain about, something with substance, something meaningful."
Lee High School alumni, for the most part, are against the idea of a name change. Wrote Terry Weitzel, "You might mention that George Washington was also a slave-owner. Should we rename Washington, DC and Washington state, and what should we do about the Washington Monument? How about Andrew Jackson? Native Americans should remember that he ordered the removal of the Cherokee from their homeland, resulting in many deaths along the Trail of Tears. Let's rename Jacksonville!"
Some opposing opinions are even stronger. "I would rather see the school torn down than give in to changing the name," said Al Marshall, Jr. in an email.
Though not an alumnus, Ray King, had a different opinion: "Only the location and name are the same. The campus is different, the school interior is different. The culture and the student population are definitely different than from a generation ago. The only thing left other than the location is the original name which represents a culture different from what is there now. The alumni know who they are and when they were there. They do not send their children there now so a name change should have no bearing on their reunions. There is no significant connection between the older alumni and the students now other than the school name. Robert E. Lee High School will always be theirs in tradition, fond in memory. It is, in reality gone. A name change might be a relief. I am a Bolles graduate of 1952, otherwise I would have attended R. E. Lee and am considered by some to be an alumnus because of a book I wrote about us way back then. The campus there at Bolles is also quite different than two generations ago, but the culture there, though now no longer military, and now co-educational and mixed racially is essentially the same. Alumni still send their children there [to Bolles]. They don't to Lee. They can't. Just let it go."
Another alumnus posted an opposing viewpoint on the petition website. "It is fitting that the current students at Lee High School select an appropriate name for the school in light of the injustices imposed on their forebears," stated Jackson Harper, Class of 1950.
So, just who is Brandon Kirsch, beyond someone with a strong opinion about Robert E. Lee? The Resident attempted to contact Kirsch to find out more about the man and his petition, but his phone number is disconnected or no longer in service. According to another news outlet, Kirsch, a Canadian, is a dermatology resident at Mayo Clinic Florida.
By Kate A. Hallock
Resident Community News http://residentnews.net/2013/09/03/alumni-hot-change-petition/
IMO changing names of High schools is just plain stupid! We can't change the past we can only really look towards the future. ;)
Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2013, 12:18:14 PM
Quote from: JayBird on September 07, 2013, 11:02:05 AM
I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.
The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.
+100
An oldie that made the rounds a few years ago, but obviously still true today
(http://i.imgur.com/sUMFarx.jpg)
QuoteRacism, just because it is subtle doesn't mean it isn't there.
Quote from: JayBird on September 07, 2013, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2013, 12:18:14 PM
Quote from: JayBird on September 07, 2013, 11:02:05 AM
I'm making the same point as others, and like everything else in Jacksonville, the natives debate to debate instead of debating to find a solution.
The solution to the Forrest situation is easy. Change the name. There are a variety of solutions to other issues as well. I don't believe any of this stuff is rocket science, assuming our overall goal is to become an economically viable 21st century city. However, if we don't want better than what we already are, we're doing a great job at accomplishing the task.
+100
-099
It is so nice to make the Washington Post: (wince) :-[
Quote
School named after KKK leader asked to change its name
By Valerie Strauss, Published: September 12 at 1:32 pmE-mail the writer
Nathan Bedford Forrest (nps.gov)
(Update: new details)
In the you-can't-make-up-this-stuff category: A petition on change.org with some 75,000 signatures is asking a Florida school district to change the name of a high school that is named after Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate general and the first "grand wizard" of the Ku Klux Klan.
And, according to Marsha Oliver, chief of communications for the Duval County School District, it doesn't matter how many people sign the petition because the process for changing a school's name is community-based and the ultimate decision resides with the school board.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/09/12/school-named-after-kkk-leader-asked-to-change-its-name/
QuoteRenaming Confederate parks creates stir in Tenn. city
AP 12:34 p.m. EST February 7, 2013
Nathan Bedford Forrest
(Photo: Adrian Sainz, AP)
Story Highlights
Council also voted to rename Confederate Park as Memphis Park
Other cities in USA have wrestled with naming parks after Forrest
Memphis debate sparked emotional discussion on Forrest's actions
SHARE 224 CONNECT 40 TWEET 24 COMMENTEMAILMORE
MEMPHIS, Tenn. (AP) — The statue of Confederate fighter Nathan Bedford Forrest astride a horse towers above the Memphis park bearing his name. It's a larger-than-life tribute to the warrior still admired by many for fiercely defending the South in the Civil War — and scorned by others for a slave-trading past and ties to the Ku Klux Klan.
Though the bloodiest war on American soil was fought 150 years ago, racially tinged discord flared before its City Council voted this week to strip Forrest's name from the downtown park and call it Health Sciences Park. It also voted to rename Confederate Park as Memphis Park and Jefferson Davis Park as Mississippi River Park.
A committee has been formed to help the council decide on permanent names for the parks.
The changes have drawn praise from those who said bygone reminders of the Confederacy had to be swept away in what today is a racially diverse city. Critics cried foul, saying moves to blot out such associations were tantamount to rewriting the history of a Mississippi River city steeped in Old South heritage.
The struggle over Forrest's legacy and moves to rename other parks highlights a broader national debate over what Confederate figures represent in the 21st century as a far more diverse nation takes new stock of the war on its 150th anniversary with the hindsight of the civil rights era.
Although the Forrest name change had been expected, a simultaneous move by the City Council to rename Confederate Park and Jefferson Davis Park was not. It arose quickly after council members learned of pending state legislation aimed at preventing the renaming any parks honoring wars or historical military figures.
Kennith Van Buren, a local African-American civil rights activist, said stripping away park names tied to the Confederacy or its leading figures were overdue.
"It's very offensive," he said. "How can we have unity in the nation when we have one city, right here in Memphis, which fails to be unified?"
Most of the emotion over the council's action has centered on Forrest. His defenders, mostly white, cite Forrest's accomplishments as an alderman, businessman and military leader. Critics, black and white, say honoring Forrest glorifies a slave trader and Ku Klux Klan member.
Katherine Blaylock, a Memphis resident who opposes the name changes, defended Forrest and accused the council of trying to rewrite history.
"Memphis has always been a racially divided city," Blaylock, 43, said after Tuesday's meeting. "It's been a big clash since way back when. We do what we can to come together and be a community, but the antagonists that keep bringing it out on both sides are the bad apples."
Forrest lived in Memphis before the Civil War, working as a cotton farmer and slave trader. Though lacking traditional military training, he rose to lieutenant general in the Confederate Army. He became legendary for fast horseback raids that disrupted the enemy's supply lines and communications.
Forrest also led the siege against Union-held Fort Pillow in 1864. With the clear advantage, Forrest ordered Union Maj. William Bradford and his troops to surrender. Forrest's men then stormed the fort and killed about 300 soldiers, half of them black. They also took black and white prisoners.
Questions linger whether the Union soldiers at Fort Pillow were killed as they tried to surrender. Northern newspaper reports referred to the battle as an atrocity, but some historians say the deaths were a consequence of battle.
Forrest later became a member of the Klan, which intimidated and threatened Southern blacks. His level of involvement in the Klan is a source of argument, and he is believed to have helped disband the first incarnation of the Klan in 1869.
Supporters praise him for offering to free 45 of his own slaves if they would serve in the Confederacy. They also claim Forrest was reluctant to divide families when he bought slaves.
Forrest died in 1877 and his body was moved to Forrest Park in the early 1900s. The tree-lined park about as large as a city block is just miles from the old Lorraine Hotel, the site of Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination in 1968.
King's murder is a cloud that lingers over Memphis long after the civil rights leader was slain. Race remains an undercurrent in many aspects of daily life. Not until last year did the city name its first street for King.
This is not the first time Forrest Park has sparked acrid debate. Memphis officials, led by the city's black mayor, rejected an effort to rename it in 2005. Other cities in the U.S. have also wrestled with the issue of naming parks and buildings after Forrest.
In 2008, a majority white school board in Jacksonville, Fla., rejected an attempt to rename Nathan Bedford Forrest High School.
Last September, the City Council in Selma, Ala. voted to stop work on a monument honoring Forrest at a city cemetery after someone removed Forrest's bust from the site. The apparent theft had led to protests by civil rights advocates not to replace it.
And, in December, Dixie State College in Utah removed a bronze statue of Confederate soldiers from campus.
Tennessee also has a state park named for Forrest and a modern-day statue of him in Nashville erected on private land.
Civil War historian Harold Holzer said that while he thinks Forrest was an "evil character," history is not served by removing references to the past in public places.
However, moving forward, more cities are likely to follow Memphis' lead, Holzer said.
"Playing with names and titles and statues in a way to pretend that memory doesn't exist in a different plane for different people and different generations is a mistake," said Holzer, a Roger Hertog fellow at the New-York Historical Society. "It actually takes away from history."
The most recent move to rename the Memphis park began in January.
Councilman Myron Lowery proposed renaming Forrest Park after Ida B. Wells, a black journalist who exposed the horrors of lynching and fought for civil rights for African-Americans and women.
At a park committee meeting last month, Councilwoman Janis Fullilove left in tears after another council member, Bill Boyd, defended Forrest as a benefactor and promoter of black people after the Civil War.
Fullilove, who is black, denounced Boyd's comments as lies. Boyd, who is white, has proposed keeping Forrest's name on the park and renaming a separate city park after Wells.
Historians at Tuesday's meeting of the park commission meeting highlighted the ambiguity of Forrest's legacy.
Rhodes College historian Charles McKinney said Forrest represents subjugation and division. But historian and Sons of Confederate Veterans member Lee Millar said slave trading was a part of doing business in the South in Forrest's day.
"Forrest was known as a very humane slave trader," said Millar, who is white. "He never split families. He allowed his slaves for sale to seek their own master."
A committee including historians, council members and an NAACP representative will discuss what to permanently name the parks. Some black and white council members hope the process helps bring people together.
Others say the city needs to discuss more pressing matters such as crime and education.
"I don't care if it's named for Nathan Bedford Forrest," said Councilman Harold Collins, who is black. "He's a dead man."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/02/07/confederate-park-names/1898859/
Quote from: stephendare on September 18, 2013, 06:57:29 PM
Quote from: NotNow on September 06, 2013, 07:00:40 PM
As several have stated here, this subject has never been mentioned to me when traveling. I googled your seach term and found several references to a recent incident at a North Dakota high school, and only one reference to Jacksonville on the Daily Kos. There was much less discussion than what is found in this thread.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=kkk+high+school&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
QuoteFlorida school named after KKK leader won't change name despite petition, longstanding protests
Nathan Bedford Forrest High School in Jacksonville, Fla., is the target of petition to change its name. But the school board won't remove the KKK grand wizard's name despite 75,000 signatures and years of controversy.
Comments (33)
By Deborah Hastings / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Published: Friday, September 13, 2013, 2:09 PM
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/thousands-florida-school-drop-kkk-leader-article-1.1455200#ixzz2fHvdhnSn
QuotePetition Challenges School Named After KKK Leader
By Associated Press Sept. 25, 20131 Comment
Follow @TIME
(JACKSONVILLE, Fla.) — A petition to change the name of a mostly black Jacksonville, Fla., high school named after an early Ku Klux Klan leader has gathered nearly 90,000 signatures.
Omotayo Richmond's petition on Change.org asks Duval Public Schools Superintendent Nikolai Vitti to change the name of Nathan B. Forrest High School.
Richmond says it's troubling that a school where more than half the students are black is named "for someone who would have kept their ancestors enslaved."
Forrest was a plantation owner and slave trader. Some accounts accuse him of ordering black prisoners to be massacred after a Confederate army victory. The newly formed Klan elected Forrest as its honorary Grand Wizard in 1867, though he denied involvement.
A district spokeswoman says the policy for changing school names does not include online petitions.
Read more: http://nation.time.com/2013/09/25/petition-challenges-school-named-after-kkk-leader/#ixzz2fxtU8KzQ
Quote from: sheclown on September 25, 2013, 11:19:09 PM
QuotePetition Challenges School Named After KKK Leader
By Associated Press Sept. 25, 20131 Comment
Follow @TIME
(JACKSONVILLE, Fla.) — A petition to change the name of a mostly black Jacksonville, Fla., high school named after an early Ku Klux Klan leader has gathered nearly 90,000 signatures.
Omotayo Richmond's petition on Change.org asks Duval Public Schools Superintendent Nikolai Vitti to change the name of Nathan B. Forrest High School.
Richmond says it's troubling that a school where more than half the students are black is named "for someone who would have kept their ancestors enslaved."
Forrest was a plantation owner and slave trader. Some accounts accuse him of ordering black prisoners to be massacred after a Confederate army victory. The newly formed Klan elected Forrest as its honorary Grand Wizard in 1867, though he denied involvement.
A district spokeswoman says the policy for changing school names does not include online petitions.
Read more: http://nation.time.com/2013/09/25/petition-challenges-school-named-after-kkk-leader/#ixzz2fxtU8KzQ
That may not be the policy that will be used as the criterion for change but it can sure be a driving factor. Vitti has already said he is open to considering the change and that in order to address the issue, it needs to be taken up by a member of the School Board. Perhaps that is where someone needs to lobby a board member to take this issue to Vitti.
^^^Not a bit surprised. From the Sept 5 TU article.
School Board member Connie Hall, whose district includes Forrest High, said she's noticed Richmond's petition. She noted that thousands of signatures don't automatically translate to a name change.
"People can start petitions all they want, they have their right to do that," Hall said "But we have policies in place to deal with that [officially changing the school's name]. We'll just have to see how his process turns out."
Sounds like Miss Connie is a bit condescending to the desires of the community via a petition. IMO Perhaps she would take them more seriously if one were being circulated demanded her removal from the School Board. lol
Interesting read from TU Mark Woods
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401820/mark-woods/2013-09-28/mark-woods-54-years-and-counting-jacksonvilles-longest
Quote
Yes, the recent meeting about Jacksonville's budget dragged on for parts of two days. That's nothing compared to a debate about what to call one of our schools.
It started in 1959 and continues 54 years later.
In the wake of an online petition and a new wave of local and national news, Duval County School Board member Jason Fischer plans to host two town hall meetings and have Jacksonville citizens continue something that started on Sept. 17, 1959.
It's fascinating to go back and read the newspaper stories about the meeting that led to Nathan Bedford Forrest High School.
I've often heard that the school's name was chosen as a defiant rebuke to Brown v. Board of Education, a way for the white establishment to stick it to the 1954 Supreme Court ruling and proponents of integration by naming a new school after a Confederate general who became grand wizard of the KKK.
When I went to the microfilm of the Times-Union and Jacksonville Journal, I fully expected to see editorials advocating for Forrest as the name, followed by news stories describing a meeting where it was the overwhelming choice. And when I went to microfilm of the Florida Star, the local African-American paper that began publishing in 1951, I expected to read editorials and stories condemning the naming of a school after a KKK leader.
Here's what I found instead. A surprising lack of stories. Not a single reference to the KKK. And a description of a meeting where Forrest wasn't the first choice of students, parents, staff or neighbors.
The day of the meeting, the Jacksonville Journal took a stand with a headline titled: Wesconnett, a Name to Be Preserved.
"The school has the lackluster designation as New School 207, which obviously won't do," it said.
The students already had held a meeting and voted to call the school Valhalla, a hall in Viking mythology. They chose this because the previous spring, when the football team began practicing, the players picked a nickname. The Vikings. So, the students said in their vote, they wanted to be the Valhalla Vikings.
"While Valhalla is a colorful name ... it's not satisfactory, either," the editorial said. "There's a lot more justification for naming it Wesconnett."
The school was located in the Wesconnett neighborhood and already was being referred to as Wesconnett High School by residents. According to local legend, the editorial explained, that name represents a combination of the names Jim West, Isaac Silcox and Lawrence Turknett, all early settlers of the area.
"It seems fitting to preserve this in the name of the school," the editorial concluded. "Maybe it'll encourage the students and the new residents of the area to be more history conscious."
When you read the five-paragraph editorial 54 years later, something jumps out at you even more than what's in it is. What isn't. Mention of Forrest.
The Times-Union story that was published after the meeting describes a "stormy and lengthy session which saw three factions battling for their name choices."
There was the Valhalla faction, led by the students and supported by the coaches who already had Viking athletic equipment.
There was the Wesconnett faction, led by the school's "Dads Club." The group had taken a vote at its last meeting and 28 members had voted for Wesconnett, 10 for Viking explorer Leif Ericson, seven for Valhalla and one for Forrest.
The third faction was led by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The story says that Mrs. John E. Walker — at the time, the paper referred to married women only by their husband's name — suggested and pushed for Forrest.
Sort of.
Mrs. Walker said the UDC was "not promoting any one particular name, but merely desired the name of a distinguished Southern leader."
When they finally got around to voting, one board member moved to name the school Valhalla. When none of the other members seconded the motion, he then moved to name it Forrest.
That was seconded and a vote of the four members (one was absent) produced a 2-2 tie.
Other suggestions didn't go anywhere. Some who spoke at the meeting argued against Wesconnett, saying that at one time the area had a "bad reputation" and putting the name on a school would saddle it with negative connotations.
When Superintendent Ish Brant was asked for his recommendation, he suggested that the school be named either Duval or Southwest. But, he said, "no matter what name the school is given, it will survive and become great."
Board chairman Raymond A. David chastised those in the room for spending so much time fighting over the name of the new school. Another vote was taken on Forrest. And this time it was 4-0.
"From now on, the Vikings of Duval County will represent Forrest High," the Times-Union story ends — as if that were indeed the end of the story.
Granted, the Times-Union and Journal often skewed or ignored stories related to race. But the Florida Star, while full of coverage of volatile local issues in the fall of 1959, including an NAACP campaign to picket Sears over hiring discrimination, didn't have any news about the naming of School 207.
Whatever the backstory behind what did and didn't appear in print, this much is clear: The bigger headlines, near and far, came later — after School 207 had its name changed.
In the 1960s, it became J.E.B. Stuart Junior High. A new building on Firestone Road was named Forrest High School.
And as that school was integrated, there were conflicts and controversies that sparked headlines. Only they weren't over the school's old name.
They were over its new nickname.
The Vikings became the Rebels, with pep rallies featuring the waving of Confederate flags and the playing of "Dixie."
Much has changed through the years, but the name remains.
And a discussion that began with a "stormy and lengthy session" in 1959 will continue next month with town hall meetings
The name shouldn't be changed this is a Non Issue! If I was a different race I would walk my school hallways proud that the name of my school was "Nathan Beford Forrest High" knowing that the Old Southern ways lost out.
Well, more than 111,000 people would disagree, IF_
the online petition is gaining even more momentum.
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 12:38:09 PM
Well, more than 111,000 people would disagree, IF_
the online petition is gaining even more momentum.
I would feel a little different if these 111,000 all came from Duval County?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on September 28, 2013, 08:30:24 PM
Interesting read from TU Mark Woods
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/401820/mark-woods/2013-09-28/mark-woods-54-years-and-counting-jacksonvilles-longest
Quote
Yes, the recent meeting about Jacksonville's budget dragged on for parts of two days. That's nothing compared to a debate about what to call one of our schools.
It started in 1959 and continues 54 years later.
In the wake of an online petition and a new wave of local and national news, Duval County School Board member Jason Fischer plans to host two town hall meetings and have Jacksonville citizens continue something that started on Sept. 17, 1959.
It's fascinating to go back and read the newspaper stories about the meeting that led to Nathan Bedford Forrest High School.
I've often heard that the school's name was chosen as a defiant rebuke to Brown v. Board of Education, a way for the white establishment to stick it to the 1954 Supreme Court ruling and proponents of integration by naming a new school after a Confederate general who became grand wizard of the KKK.
When I went to the microfilm of the Times-Union and Jacksonville Journal, I fully expected to see editorials advocating for Forrest as the name, followed by news stories describing a meeting where it was the overwhelming choice. And when I went to microfilm of the Florida Star, the local African-American paper that began publishing in 1951, I expected to read editorials and stories condemning the naming of a school after a KKK leader.
Here's what I found instead. A surprising lack of stories. Not a single reference to the KKK. And a description of a meeting where Forrest wasn't the first choice of students, parents, staff or neighbors.
The day of the meeting, the Jacksonville Journal took a stand with a headline titled: Wesconnett, a Name to Be Preserved.
"The school has the lackluster designation as New School 207, which obviously won't do," it said.
The students already had held a meeting and voted to call the school Valhalla, a hall in Viking mythology. They chose this because the previous spring, when the football team began practicing, the players picked a nickname. The Vikings. So, the students said in their vote, they wanted to be the Valhalla Vikings.
"While Valhalla is a colorful name ... it's not satisfactory, either," the editorial said. "There's a lot more justification for naming it Wesconnett."
The school was located in the Wesconnett neighborhood and already was being referred to as Wesconnett High School by residents. According to local legend, the editorial explained, that name represents a combination of the names Jim West, Isaac Silcox and Lawrence Turknett, all early settlers of the area.
"It seems fitting to preserve this in the name of the school," the editorial concluded. "Maybe it'll encourage the students and the new residents of the area to be more history conscious."
When you read the five-paragraph editorial 54 years later, something jumps out at you even more than what's in it is. What isn't. Mention of Forrest.
The Times-Union story that was published after the meeting describes a "stormy and lengthy session which saw three factions battling for their name choices."
There was the Valhalla faction, led by the students and supported by the coaches who already had Viking athletic equipment.
There was the Wesconnett faction, led by the school's "Dads Club." The group had taken a vote at its last meeting and 28 members had voted for Wesconnett, 10 for Viking explorer Leif Ericson, seven for Valhalla and one for Forrest.
The third faction was led by the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The story says that Mrs. John E. Walker — at the time, the paper referred to married women only by their husband's name — suggested and pushed for Forrest.
Sort of.
Mrs. Walker said the UDC was "not promoting any one particular name, but merely desired the name of a distinguished Southern leader."
When they finally got around to voting, one board member moved to name the school Valhalla. When none of the other members seconded the motion, he then moved to name it Forrest.
That was seconded and a vote of the four members (one was absent) produced a 2-2 tie.
Other suggestions didn't go anywhere. Some who spoke at the meeting argued against Wesconnett, saying that at one time the area had a "bad reputation" and putting the name on a school would saddle it with negative connotations.
When Superintendent Ish Brant was asked for his recommendation, he suggested that the school be named either Duval or Southwest. But, he said, "no matter what name the school is given, it will survive and become great."
Board chairman Raymond A. David chastised those in the room for spending so much time fighting over the name of the new school. Another vote was taken on Forrest. And this time it was 4-0.
"From now on, the Vikings of Duval County will represent Forrest High," the Times-Union story ends — as if that were indeed the end of the story.
Granted, the Times-Union and Journal often skewed or ignored stories related to race. But the Florida Star, while full of coverage of volatile local issues in the fall of 1959, including an NAACP campaign to picket Sears over hiring discrimination, didn't have any news about the naming of School 207.
Whatever the backstory behind what did and didn't appear in print, this much is clear: The bigger headlines, near and far, came later — after School 207 had its name changed.
In the 1960s, it became J.E.B. Stuart Junior High. A new building on Firestone Road was named Forrest High School.
And as that school was integrated, there were conflicts and controversies that sparked headlines. Only they weren't over the school's old name.
They were over its new nickname.
The Vikings became the Rebels, with pep rallies featuring the waving of Confederate flags and the playing of "Dixie."
Much has changed through the years, but the name remains.
And a discussion that began with a "stormy and lengthy session" in 1959 will continue next month with town hall meetings
Very interesting find CC...
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 29, 2013, 01:04:01 PM
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 12:38:09 PM
Well, more than 111,000 people would disagree, IF_
the online petition is gaining even more momentum.
I would feel a little different if these 111,000 all came from Duval County?
Yes. It would be less embarrassing
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 07:13:57 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 29, 2013, 01:04:01 PM
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 12:38:09 PM
Well, more than 111,000 people would disagree, IF_
the online petition is gaining even more momentum.
I would feel a little different if these 111,000 all came from Duval County?
Yes. It would be less embarrassing
Whats next George Washington owned Slaves. Do we remove him from the Dollar bill and Quarter?
Did he start a group that promoted lynching them?
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
Did he start a group that promoted lynching them?
I don't know but don't forget not everything in history is told?
Quote from: stephendare on September 30, 2013, 11:24:20 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 30, 2013, 11:22:49 AM
Quote from: sheclown on September 29, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
Did he start a group that promoted lynching them?
I don't know but don't forget not everything in history is told?
# 2 on my list. Congratulations.
Haha classic. And the win goes to ... Mr. Dare!
Picked this up from Robert on his FB page. Lord have mercy. This is a must read!
(http://i.imgur.com/oSTDQTT.jpg)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/10/02/kkk-asks-panel-to-keep-school-named-after-grand-wizard-of-white-supremacist-group/
Quote
Nathan Bedford Forrest (nps.gov)
Here's the latest in the you-can't-make-up-this-stuff story about a school in Florida that is still named after the first "grand wizard" of the Ku Klux Klan. A current "imperial kaltrop" of the KKK has written a letter to members of the Duval County School Board urging them not to change the name this week when they meet to discuss the issue.
The school is Nathan B. Forrest High School and, as I wrote in this recent post, a petition with nearly 120,000 names on change.org is asking the Florida school district to change the name. Back in April 2007, when the school board was asked by the School Advisory Council to change the name, the panel voted 5-2 against it, but there are new members on the panel now.
Why is the school named after a KKK grand wizard? When it opened in 1959, a number of names were suggested but an organization called the Daughters of the Confederacy somehow won the day with Nathan B. Forrest, who was a Confederate general in the Civil War and the first "grand wizard" of the Ku Klux Klan. Now, more than half of the school's students are African American. You can read below a description of that 1959 meeting from someone who was there.
The school board is planning to meet Thursday to discuss changing the name, and the Florida Times-Union newspaper obtained a letter that a current KKK leader wrote to members of the school board, urging them not to change the name at the Jacksonville school. The letter urges the board to take a "decisive stand to protect the name of the school."
The board is more likely to change the name than preserve it.
The change.org petition was written by a man named Omotayo Richmond, who wrote in part:
I moved to Jacksonville from Long Island 12 years ago. Since then, I've put down roots here. I've helped raise a beautiful daughter here. This place is my home now, and the people who live here deserve better than a high school named for the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.
That's right, Jacksonville is home to Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, named in honor of a Confederate general who infamously slaughtered Black Union soldiers who'd already surrendered and who was a founding member of the original Ku Klux Klan. The school got its name in 1959, when white civic leaders wanted to protest a court decision that called for integrating public schools.
I don't want my daughter, or any student, going to a school named under those circumstances. This is a bad look for Florida — with so much racial division in our state, renaming Forrest High would be a step toward healing...
The KKK letter, which you can read here, was written by someone identified as "Imperial Kaltrop, K Trio, Traditionalist American Knights of The Ku Klux Klan. There are three initials above the name, the first two being D.C. and the last being either a a W or an N. The Traditionalist American Knights of the KKK is a white-supremacy group. The letter says in part:
It is true and no secret that Nathan Bedford Forrest was appointed first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and carried out his duties as the office demanded of him. What is never taught or reported on in the mainstream media is how or why there was a need for the Klan or 'Ku Klux' as it was originally called. Many say it was to deny the newly emancipated blacks of their rights, and I am sure that there were some men who embraced that concept, but the Klan was born primarily as a fraternity and quickly evolved into a group of vigilance to protect defenseless southerners from criminal activities perpetrated against them by Yankee carpet baggers, scalawags, and many bestial blacks and other criminal elements out for revenge or just taking part in criminal mischief.
The Times-Union quotes Jason Fischer, the Duval County School Board member who scheduled Thursday's meeting, as saying that when he saw the letter, his reaction was to "burn it and wash my hands."
Meanwhile, after I wrote the first post about this issue, I got an e-mail from a woman named Susan Wittenberg Case, who said she was at at the meeting back in 1959 and described what happened. Here's what she said:
Your short article about this petition couldn't begin to explain the controversy surrounding the naming of this school in the fall of 1959. The school opened without a name and we were packed in like sardines from 7th through 12th grades. I and my brother were in the 7th and 8th grade and we were so excited to learn that we students were going to choose the name of the school, the colors, and the football team's name. A vigorous campaign ensued with proposed names being put up on the board and lively discussions taking place. I remember one proposed name was "Oak Lawn" and the team could be the "Acorns." That name died a well-deserved death, however, when it was pointed out that Oak Lawn was a more appropriate name for a cemetery or a nursing home.
The name that captivated us all and won hands-down was Valhalla High. The team name was the Vikings and colors were orange and white. The boys all liked the idea of the great and fearless Viking warriors and we girls were enthralled with the idea that Valhalla was the name for the Viking heaven. The football jerseys had all been ordered, signs were going up, supplies ordered, logos printed. We were all excitedly awaiting the first game of the season in our brand new junior-senior high school.
A meeting was called and when my parents returned that night I can still see their angry faces. My mother could barely contain her scorn and outrage as she described how the UDC (United Daughters of the Confederacy)had pushed through their own agenda to rename MY school after the slave-running drunkard and Ku Klux Klan leader, Nathan Forrest. The team name was the Rebels, and colors were red and grey. We even had a flag now, the old confederate cross. Officially, the school was now General Nathan Bedford Forrest Junior-Senior High School.
Everyone was in an uproar. You should know that many, many of the students were from military families, as I was, and our identity was to the United States primarily, and not to the failed Confederacy or to the south in general. But even the "civilian" kids were angry. We all felt betrayed. We WERE betrayed. Our vote and voice had been stripped away and something really ugly had been inflicted upon us. It took a long time to feel any sense of loyalty to the school and all these years later, I still have contempt for the old biddies of the UDC.
I'd still like to see the name Valhalla resurrected somehow. Valhalla High Vikings has a nice ring to it. But then, what about all the peoples that were terrorized by those fierce sea-faring Norsemen? *sigh* Okay, Oak Lawn it is, then.
If it was renamed the "John Wilkes Booth School of the Performing Arts" would the transplanted Yankee be happy?
This like so many other issues will have folks dug in on both sides. Apparently there is a town hall meeting to discuss the issue this Thursday. It will be held at Mandarin High School on Hood Road at 6:00 PM.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 02, 2013, 09:49:07 PM
This like so many other issues will have folks dug in on both sides. Apparently there is a town hall meeting to discuss the issue this Thursday. It will be held at Mandarin High School on Hood Road at 6:00 PM.
Why Mandarin?
Quote from: fsquid on October 02, 2013, 10:01:38 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 02, 2013, 09:49:07 PM
This like so many other issues will have folks dug in on both sides. Apparently there is a town hall meeting to discuss the issue this Thursday. It will be held at Mandarin High School on Hood Road at 6:00 PM.
Why Mandarin?
I haven't a clue.
Quote
KKK urges DCPS to keep controversial school name
Thousands fight to change name of local high school
Reported by: Ryan Smith
Email: rsmith@ActionNewsJax.com
Published: 10/02 10:49 pm
Share
Updated: 10/02 11:35 pm
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A high-ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan is urging the Duval County School Board not to change the name of a local high school.
Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate Army general, grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, and the namesake of a high school on Jacksonville's Westside.
For many, a school name evokes a sense of pride. That hasn't been the case recently at N.B. Forrest High.
More than 117,000 people signed an online petition demanding that the school district change the name.
Organizer Omotayo Richmond argues the name sends the wrong message and represents a man who enslaved, slaughtered and disenfranchised blacks in America.
But not everyone agrees with the petition. Action News obtained a letter sent to all seven Duval County School Board members from the Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
"When I found out it was an actual KKK organization I wanted to burn the letter and wash my hands immediately," said school board member Jason Fischer.
Action News reporter Ryan Smith made some calls and tracked the letter back to the Missouri-based group. Smith spoke with the group's leader, who said he stands by it.
The letter asks the school board to "take a decisive stand to protect the name of the school based on the true historical facts surrounding this valiant man of honor."
The letter attempts to defend the KKK, stating the group was born to "protect defenseless southerners from criminal activities perpetrated against them by Yankee carpet baggers ..."
The letter goes on to use a racial slur against African-Americans, which Action News chose not to repeat.
"At first I thought it might be some sort of a gag or political stunt and then as I looked into it, I found out that it was an actual organization ... I was outraged by it," said Fischer.
School board members met last week to discuss the issue. Board member Connie Hall, who represents the area covering N.B. Forrest High, is spending a month gathering feedback from the community before the board makes any decisions.
Fischer is hosting a town-hall meeting to discuss the DCPS budget but predicts the public will bring up the racially-charged issue.
The meeting is open to the public and starts at 6 p.m. Thursday at Mandarin High School.
This isn't the first time there's been an outcry. In 2006, folks suggested changing the name to Eartha M.M. White -- after a Jacksonville philanthropist.
In 2008, the Duval County School Board voted 5-2 to keep the same name, but current Superintendent Nikolai Vitti said he has no problem with change, as long it goes through the proper channels.
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/KKK-urges-DCPS-to-keep-controversial-school-name/mExNDO2dz0SwfNVMPbFqpg.cspx
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Anyone that thinks that the KKK is gone is either ignorant or a liar..there lots of families where the values and beliefs are being taught to children..ive heard other scoff at the idea on here and you guys are just ignorant to the truth..
Quote from: fsquid on October 02, 2013, 10:01:38 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 02, 2013, 09:49:07 PM
This like so many other issues will have folks dug in on both sides. Apparently there is a town hall meeting to discuss the issue this Thursday. It will be held at Mandarin High School on Hood Road at 6:00 PM.
Why Mandarin?
Okay, the answer is that this is one town meeting of many that will be held throughout the city.
Quote from: Garden guy on October 03, 2013, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Anyone that thinks that the KKK is gone is either ignorant or a liar..there lots of families where the values and beliefs are being taught to children..ive heard other scoff at the idea on here and you guys are just ignorant to the truth..
they are not gone, but they are a weak, weak organization on the fringes of society. As for racism and homophobia being taught to children, that will probably go on forever at a declining rate whether or not there is a KKK or not.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Of the many arguments out there regarding the name change, waste of dollars isn't one that will make a difference nor should it. The costs of the name change would be negligible in a world of real waste. It is time to remove this thorn from the side of Jacksonville. It's something that can be done and the reality is now with the KKK opening up their racists mouth's in support of the name, we really have to do something. The KKK was and is a blight on the face of this country. Nuff said.
Quote from: fsquid on October 03, 2013, 04:02:29 PM
Quote from: Garden guy on October 03, 2013, 08:00:20 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Anyone that thinks that the KKK is gone is either ignorant or a liar..there lots of families where the values and beliefs are being taught to children..ive heard other scoff at the idea on here and you guys are just ignorant to the truth..
they are not gone, but they are a weak, weak organization on the fringes of society. As for racism and homophobia being taught to children, that will probably go on forever at a declining rate whether or not there is a KKK or not.
They are not just on the fringes of society. They have dug in many communities where Native American families are living and are now trying to dispense their racist ideas in their well known hateful manner. Just because there isn't news coverage on all instances, does not mean they are not still driving their agenda and the sad news is they are inflaming non KKK White Supremacy groups to gain ground in the endeavors. Sick SOB's.
If the Daughters of the Confederacy can waste taxpayer dollars changing the name of Valhalla High School to Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, we as a city can spend a little money to change it back. A person who owns a sign shop in Riverside offered a couple of weeks ago to change the signage free of charge if the School Board will change the name. CNBC is offering to join in on helping the efforts of progressive groups in the city to get this wrong corrected.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 03, 2013, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Of the many arguments out there regarding the name change, waste of dollars isn't one that will make a difference nor should it. The costs of the name change would be negligible in a world of real waste. It is time to remove this thorn from the side of Jacksonville. It's something that can be done and the reality is now with the KKK opening up their racists mouth's in support of the name, we really have to do something. The KKK was and is a blight on the face of this country. Nuff said.
well said
Quote from: theduvalprogressive on October 03, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
If the Daughters of the Confederacy can waste taxpayer dollars changing the name of Valhalla High School to Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, we as a city can spend a little money to change it back. A person who owns a sign shop in Riverside offered a couple of weeks ago to change the signage free of charge if the School Board will change the name. CNBC is offering to join in on helping the efforts of progressive groups in the city to get this wrong corrected.
Indeed
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 03, 2013, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Of the many arguments out there regarding the name change, waste of dollars isn't one that will make a difference nor should it. The costs of the name change would be negligible in a world of real waste.
After agreeing to spend over +$40 million for a new scoreboard and pools at Everbank Field, we can take the money equation right out of this name change discussion. As shown with the Jags, time and time again, if it's a priority, we get pretty innovative in securing the funding to get things done in a timely manner.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2013, 06:57:32 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 03, 2013, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 03, 2013, 07:33:07 AM
This is such a waste of taxpayer dollars, at a time when the School Board is flush with cash and goodwill. When was the last time you actually saw the KKK in the paper?
Do any public schools in Jacksonville still have the Indians as their mascot or name of their teams? Is replacing them going to be next? Is Terry Parker still called the Braves?
Of the many arguments out there regarding the name change, waste of dollars isn't one that will make a difference nor should it. The costs of the name change would be negligible in a world of real waste.
After agreeing to spend over +$40 million for a new scoreboard and pools at Everbank Field, we can take the money equation right out of this name change discussion. As shown with the Jags, time and time again, if it's a priority, we get pretty innovative in securing the funding to get things done in a timely manner.
Agreed!
I am hearing from folks who were at the town hall meeting tonight to discuss the issue of the name change. There were folks present on both sides of the issue. The good news is that everyone behaved respectfully in what was described as a tense atmosphere. I was so happy to hear that. :)
use the scroll bar 9slide bar?) at the bottom to read the entire letter:
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/kkkletter1.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/kkkletter1.jpg.html)
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/sheclown2/kkkletter2.jpg) (http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/sheclown2/media/kkkletter2.jpg.html)
^Barf! That is all.
Quote from: stephendare on October 04, 2013, 03:30:17 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 04, 2013, 03:29:41 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 04, 2013, 11:14:53 AM
ridiculous points.
There is no reason to honor the intentionally provocative naming of a school in the 1960s. We change the names of things all the time. Consider the Independent Life/Modis/Wells Fargo tower.
Are you worried that we will 'go to far' with the single name change of a school after 40 years?
Talk to the Gator Bowl/ Municipal Stadium/ Alltell Stadium /Everbank Field.
The changing of the Life/Modis/Wells Fargo tower is business related it's not the same." Talk to the Gator Bowl/ Municipal Stadium/ Alltell Stadium /Everbank Field." These name changes are also business related. Sorry Stephendare not the same. :'( :'(
because?
IILY is correct (for once), but I think the name of the school should be changed if for no other reason than to piss off the KKK since they decided to insert themselves in the discussion.
Isn't the Wells Fargo Building is actually called Independent Square? According to this http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-feb-unique-jacksonville-independent-square that is the name of the building.
Quote from: stephendare on October 04, 2013, 03:56:17 PM
Independent Square is actually the name of the address. Naming conventions change, but addresses don't. Just as in the name of the School.
The address is 1 Independent Drive
I am very pleased to see that the letter came from an "Imperial Kaltrop" and not merely your ordinary everyday sort of Kaltrop. I wonder if he has a special flower design on his bed sheet?
I think all agree just change the name. Whether some obscure small Klan issues a mail is silly. Will the name change affect the students (well no it wont). Will it improve their test scores (no it won't), will it possibly improve their future (no it won't). Will it make us all feel better about ourselves (oh yes indeed)! And after all isn't that the real point
And Istanbul was Constantinople... 8) Whether it's a building, a park, a city, or even a country, names change all the time for a myriad of reasons.
But because of the controversy it's become complicated, is that right? Can't very well use the argument of "he wasn't even a Jax native" because Ed White wasn't.
It should be less about wanting to rid ourselves of the name Forrest, and more about honoring someone else who's time is due. If more people are in favor of the change than against it, then it shouldn't be such a problem anymore. There's no real excuse.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on October 05, 2013, 07:56:04 PM
And Istanbul was Constantinople... 8) Whether it's a building, a park, a city, or even a country, names change all the time for a myriad of reasons.
But because of the controversy it's become complicated, is that right? Can't very well use the argument of "he wasn't even a Jax native" because Ed White wasn't.
It should be less about wanting to rid ourselves of the name Forrest, and more about honoring someone else who's time is due. If more people are in favor of the change than against it, then it shouldn't be such a problem anymore. There's no real excuse.
But even PS 201 would be better so it is about removing his name
To keep the Westsiders happy ... just rename it Lynrd Skynrd High and be done.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 06, 2013, 07:31:05 AM
To keep the Westsiders happy ... just rename it Lynrd Skynrd High and be done.
Now, that makes perfect sense to me!!!
Looks like a first vote on the name change is set for November 4th.
(http://i.imgur.com/2nZyJaV.jpg)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-18/story/first-vote-controversial-name-change-nathan-b-forrest-high-due-nov-4 (click link for full story)
QuoteBy Khristopher J. Brooks
The first step in possibly changing the name of a Duval County high school will begin next month.
Nathan B. Forrest High School's Advisory Council plans to vote Nov. 4 on whether to start the lengthy process of re-naming the Westside school. Superintendent Nikolai Vitti says it's hard to tell at this point how soon the issue could come before the Duval County School Board, but an online petition certainly has given the issue more national attention.
If Forrest High's SAC approves starting the process for a name change, the School Board then decides whether to move forward. If so, the school district then must gather public opinion and consider new names.
At that point, Vitti must then decide whether he will recommend changing the name. If he does, the final vote comes down to the School Board.
Vitti said he and the School Board are awaiting a report from board member Connie Hall, who was assigned to determine where people in the Forrest community stand on changing the name. The report is due in coming weeks, the superintendent said.
Vitti already has said he would support a Forrest High name change if the push came naturally from the public
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-18/story/first-vote-controversial-name-change-nathan-b-forrest-high-due-nov-4#ixzz2iBu9Oayt
Yep and it now has to go through the process.
Detroit:
"Florida school named after KKK leader gets new name"
http://www.freep.com/article/20140108/NEWS07/301080146/jacksonville-school-KKK-name-removed