Metro Jacksonville

What is going on with all this gossip about a changeover in leadership at SPAR?

This is about the fifth time that I have been told that there are 'major changes' about to take place at SPAR, with whispered conversations about 'younger blood' and a couple of the SPAR council members getting ready to change things there?

I personally think Louise DeSpain seems to be a fairly effective leader.

Is there something going on that the rest of us don't know about?

I sit on the board, and I haven't heard those rumors. In fact, the board created an executive director position because we all recognized Louise's talents and didn't want to lose her leadership due to term limits. So please, do tell. In my humble opinion, without more substantiated information this is just rumor mongering.

I've not heard anything along those lines....there's new board members that were elected..and like Dan said, the board created and voted on a position just for Ms. DeSpain to remain in place. There's issues withing every organization, but I've not heard anything along the lines in which you mentioned.

I'm not saying it's not true.....I've just not heard anything....but there's been some unrest over issues...so who knows, nothing would surprise me. I agree, that if you're hearing this from various sources, then there's quite often something to it.

I've lived and worked in Springfield off and on since 1993.  The first place I lived was at Laura St. and 2nd before the great turnaround.  I know a lot about the best neighborhood and best neighborhood association as I’ve have been apart of it for the past 15 years albeit on the sideline.  What I’ve been hearing as of late is just despicable.  Springfield has great leadership right now and the proof is in the pudding.  Who hasn't seen the turnaround in Springfield since the early 90's.  Yes we are facing horrible economic times but the current key players have and have had the best interest of the neighborhood ever since I can remember.  Given the current economic situation it would not be in the best interest to make any changes. I've always saluted Louise as well as numerous other small investers for their hard work in Spingfield. 

I remember going to the SPAR potlucks back in the day and realizing that there’s was such close community there.  SPAR can do no wrong in my book since they’ve always wanted so much more the area.  I’m sorry that they are currently being challenged.

To my knowledge, there's no real challenge or unrest happening within SPAR...there's been a few low keyed issues that some members have not agreed with...but certainly nothing that would constitute a threat to the stability or ongoing efforts. No matter what the organization or group, there's always going to be some tension over issues, but as a whole, SPAR remains as strong as ever.

I was there for the election and I know what you're talking about....there were some problems and discontent revolving around them. As for Louise, the board just created a position for her, so she can stay at the helm...so to speak. I can understand now....what rumors you had heard and what they were about.

Isn't that the truth...we do have our spunk.... I appreciate your concerns and that you contacted the SPAR office to get to the bottom of it.

Yeah, most organizations tend to have some sort of unrest....it's pretty much the nature of the beast.

try starting a glbt church LOL. General Patraeus couldn't even imagine the torture involved in that. I first went to St. Likes MCC in Springfield which bought the church in riverside and moved over to McDuff. After the fall out with MCC we started Christ Church of Peace. I remember meeting a lot of SPAR members at the old Church in Springfield. Isn't there a SPAR house tour soon

The last one was in December....haven't heard of a date for the next one...which is usually in April.

SPAR should embrace their forum.  It can be a powerful asset for them if managed right.  What's SPAR's strategic plan to encourage commercial development along 8th & Main Streets?  Those areas are Springfield's final frontier.

The forum is a phenomenal tool that has been sort of coopted by a few people who have a axes to grind.

I was unable to attend the meeting tonight due to on going family issues, but had I been in attendance, I would have abstained. I see the value, but I also see the potential for damage.

I am glad it will still be around, but I wish the tone would swing back to being a bit more positive.

Aside from the debate over a particular thread about a contractor and the home owner, the tone has been positive. In fact, for the most part, the forum is extremely quiet. As a member of SPAR, I find it shameful how some other members, including board members, are concerned about the 'tone' and are willing to see it shut down instead of allowing members to openly discuss important issues.

And movedsouth is right...I totally agree with what you said!

The thing is, there are other SPAR members who feel it represents the neighborhood in a negative way. Are their voices not as important as those who felt it should stay up?

As I said, I am glad its staying up.

The SPAR forum is too important of a resource to let go because there are those who aren't familiar with and fear the power modern technology.  I've heard some of the same anti-forum talk at a few SAMBA meetings and I disagree with the idea of shutting them down also.  If it did go down, I'm sure some at Metro Jacksonville would have been interested in bringing the discussions held there to this site in some type of format.

From an outsider, looking in, it seems like the compromise should be to streamline it to the point where it is used for certain topics and not for others.  When things go personal, there has to be moderators in place to cut the head off from the snake before it gets completely out of hand.  Its easier said than done, knowing that we've had our issues here and at MetJax, but strong moderation is the key.

So, when will the forum be back online? I need a recomendation on a concrete/brick mason to restore/rebuild my front steps that seem to be caving in slowly... :'(

I was at the board meeting last night and it was certainly enlightening.  It's not necessarily just the old guard vs the new blood, it was a mix.  It is narrow-minded to look at the forum in such a negative way, it provides so much good to the community, for the most part. 

Also, one of the board members is resigning so there will be another opening soon on the board. 

Spar could be using the forum board to proactively promote itself and the neighborhood.  There is some animosity towards SPAR in the neighborhood, but in my opinion most of this stems from a lack of communication which implies a lack of interest. Case in point: The Great Chicken Round Up. When the city came out to round up the Springfield chickens, most (at least voiced) neighbors were shocked. There is a whole thread dedicated to the chicken round up, one neighbor was even on the news complaining….yet nothing was communicated by SPAR on this topic. Why not? Now there are rumors running around the neighborhood as to who is responsible, who participated, who gave the OK from SPAR, and I mean really this does no one any good, why not just post something?

Another case in point: JEA’s new poles. JEA is putting in new poles throughout the neighborhood. Unfortunately they are also butchering and cutting down the tree canopy. Another big thread on the forum about this, nothing really from SPAR. A neighborhood resident actually got the ball rolling, got a compromise, and posted it on the forum. There is a huge opportunity for SPAR to reach out and communicate with its constituents, keep them informed, gain feedback, and learn about the hot topics/hot spots around the neighborhood. Instead, constituents are being labebled “Bad Eggs” if they post anything that could be perceived as negative about the neighborhood at all.

so why is your email addy hidden here then?  ;)

Quote from: movedsouth on April 15, 2008, 01:30:45 PM

Quote from: gatorback on April 15, 2008, 01:28:33 PM
so why is your email addy hidden here then?  ;)

Because I think I can refrain from personal attacks even while keeping my identity somewhat hidden.

(Edit: Note I am not supporting the "id requirement" in my earlier post. I was merely quoting a SPAR board member suggesting this as a solution. I do use my real name on the SPAR forum, but would not require anybody else to do so).

Thanks for that clarification.  I don't put much weight on people that hide behind the vail of anonymity but I do listen to their concerns.

Whether you use your real name or not, everyone knows who everyone else is….I mean it doesn’t take a rocket scientist in this neighborhood…we are a rather small group no?

That being said I could use my real name, as everyone knows who I am on the SPAR forum anyway  ;)

Quote from: downtownparks on April 15, 2008, 08:01:26 AM
The thing is, there are other SPAR members who feel it represents the neighborhood in a negative way. Are their voices not as important as those who felt it should stay up?

As I said, I am glad its staying up.

I never said that their voices aren't important....I just don't feel the same way. I just feel that there's a great deal of more good to the forum, than negative.

Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2008, 02:48:18 PM
btw, DD, thanks for your frank and delightfully funny posts.

I have laughed most of this morning over the specter of the Great Chicken "Roundup" and bad eggs.

ahhhhh becarefule I am SURE I am one of those "Bad Eggs", although I don't have the bandit mask...I need to get one of those ;D

Actually there were two birthday parties last night at Three Layers - one for April at 7 pm and then the other one....which Erin was having a birthday?  Must have been Erin of Erin and Andrew. 

What a great place in the neighborhood....though I wasn't sure if I should be insulted by your comments or not.....    :-\

Quote from: stephendare on April 16, 2008, 11:37:10 AM
After the Metrojacksonville meet, greet and hang out last night a few of us went over to Three Layers and found it swarmed with the beautiful young new homeowner set.

Springfields little homeowner parties are looking more like casting calls for well made porn than neighborhood association wonkfests.

Well this is just tasteful.  I have been watching the posts here for some time.  Today is my first post.  This is the biggest reason that I do not post here.  The crudeness and rudeness is really not called for.  It drives people like me away.  It may be easy to just write me off as someone who really would have nothing to contribute anyway and that might be true.  Or, it might be false.  You may never know.  Worse yet, I would guess that there are many others like me out there.

Best wishes on any reform efforts.
NewIt

Making some more friends, Stephen?   ;)

Alive, well, and growing...

Quote from: stephendare on April 16, 2008, 05:17:49 PM
lol.....i suspect its the same old one with a different yet strangely similar gmail address, but I could be wrong.   It is after all, just lightly possible that a very delicate pollyanna just relocated to springfield and decided to make a stand against vulgarity.

if so, then sweet madame, my deepest and sincerest apologies for this crass and utterly unrefined world into which you have been so reluctantly dragged.

As Oscar would have said it.  All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

The important thing is that its very encouraging to see such a huge group of young people hanging out and being neighbors.   Maybe there is a generational switch about to occur over in the neighborhood in general.

We can only hope Stephen, we can only hope...

If beating up Stephen Dare (who i believe is also a resident) on their forum (with not one moderator doing anything but attack Stephen too) was not enough...they are now the Gestapo attacking all neighbors that don’t meet the LOLA guidelines. It is a shame that they are being allowed to ruin the neighborhood with their personal preferences and narrowmindedness, I think Stephen was right when he posted about the "SPAR Revolt". When an organization that is supposed to represent the neighborhoods interest starts a war with neighbors who question their actions,tatics,and motivations, ignores the neighborhoods needs and follows a path for the few, then turns around begs money at every opportunity with out supplying any services in return...well it has outlived it's time. The complete board needs to be replaced, or it just needs to go silently into the night.

I don't want to see the board go away, just revamped into what would be, those who really are interested in the betterment of Springfield and not just what's good for a few.

Quote from: NewIt on April 16, 2008, 02:50:40 PM

Well this is just tasteful.  I have been watching the posts here for some time.  Today is my first post.  This is the biggest reason that I do not post here.  The crudeness and rudeness is really not called for.  It drives people like me away.  It may be easy to just write me off as someone who really would have nothing to contribute anyway and that might be true.  Or, it might be false.  You may never know.  Worse yet, I would guess that there are many others like me out there.

sounds to me more like a moth drawn to a flame.  you try to stay away, but the crudeness and rudeness keeps drawing you back in.  keep lurking.

Quote from: stephendare on September 20, 2008, 08:43:41 AM
And there have been many wonderful people who have wandered on and off of the SPAR board over the years.  In fact, at least two of them, Jack Meeks and Page Dampier, have earned my personal respect and admiration in profound ways both on and off the emotionally charged residents group.

I am glad to say that Jack Meeks is back on the SPAR board as of a few weeks ago. All SPAR Board members unanimously voted for him as a great asset to Springfield and are pleased to have him back.

SPAR needs young blood. One of the greatness of George Washington is term limits. Unfortunately, SPAR did something exactly opposite. It is ostentatious to think some SPAR leader is more valuable than George Washington. It is uber stupid to think the area is so lack of talent.  :'(

Quote from: fatcat on September 20, 2008, 01:56:26 PM
SPAR needs young blood. One of the greatness of George Washington is term limits. Unfortunately, SPAR did something exactly opposite. It is ostentatious to think some SPAR leader is more valuable than George Washington. It is uber stupid to think the area is so lack of talent.  :'(

Funny you should mention George Washington.

The people on SPAR actually knew George Washington.

It's not untipical for organizations such as SPAR to lose focus of their mission. Do they have a mission statement?

Quote from: gatorback on September 20, 2008, 06:43:54 PM
It's not untipical for organizations such as SPAR to lose focus of their mission. Do they have a mission statement?

This is from the SPAR Bylaws which are posted here:
http://www.sparcouncil.org/images/stories/Bylaws_2008.pdf

Quote
ARTICLE 2 - PURPOSES
The purpose of the Corporation is to stimulate preservation, reinvestment, and community
activism in Springfield Historic District, while maintaining the integrity of its structures and history.
The mission of the Corporation is to provide leadership to the residents of Historic Springfield
to revitalize, preserve, and restore the community through its diverse programs.
In addition, the Corporation is formed for the purposes of performing all things incidental to, or
appropriate in, the achievement of the foregoing specific and primary purposes. However, the
Corporation shall not, except to an insubstantial degree, engage in any activities or exercise any
powers that do not further its specific and primary purposes.

I too have heard good things about Meeks....and I couldn't agree with you more, Moved....and this is one of the problems with SPAR, failure to really communicate with it's members.

It sounds like some of you all should join SPAR.  That would go a long way to getting some of the things you would like to see in the neighborhood, take place.

I'm already a paying member, as are many of the others who have been posting....and no, it hasn't helped, not as far as SPAR goes. However, we've worked very hard towards the betterment of our neighborhood. We have pride and we work hard...but getting SPAR to act on certain things...well, they haven't.

Is there a way to do more than pay a general membership fee?  Is there any way to actively participate with the group of individuals making decisions?

yes, and we do...but the majority of their business is handled by those sitting on the council.

I am a paying member too (it makes no difference), but won't be this year! When the neighborhood spoke up about the Main St. design, and how we would want pedestrian walks as were provided on 8th St lectures ensued on not supporting the “original pioneers who designed as best they could at the time”. SPAR needs to move into the future, there are new residents with different wants/needs, what worked for SPAR in 1992 is not going to work for 2009; the needs and demographics are too different. I have attended meetings where no one is supposed to talk (except board members) but developers are allowed the floor whenever they so choose. Many have tried to voice concerns on houses being demolished left and right, without any communication to the neighborhood (preservation is part of the SPAR mission statement) but they don’t like people speaking up about this, just like they don’t like a person speaking up much about anything that contradicts their vision. I had to ask someone what a LOLA was, but now that I am "in the know" I have to agree.

SPAR has a trend of "selecting" board members instead of voting them in, this much I do know. In this case at least it sounds like they selected someone for reasons other than being so and so's friend.

I have heard good things about Jack, so maybe this is a good start for some change.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2008, 08:59:25 PM
Is there a way to do more than pay a general membership fee?  Is there any way to actively participate with the group of individuals making decisions?

They don't want the input of their members. They believe that their neighborhood isn't capable of thinking so they must do it for them

I totally agree with both, uptowngirl and livedraps...you both nailed the problem!

Some may not agree with this, but I feel as if they don't have time to even acknowledge you live here unless you are giving them money. It all comes down to the money. We are a very mixed neighborhood from pretty darn well off to pretty darn poor, unfortunately the only people being heard are the pretty darn rich, and usually only if they are paying through the nose. I think people forget part of the charm of Springfield is the great mixture of demographics; you just can’t be successful by leaving at least half the neighborhood behind!

Amen to that sister! Membership to SPAR means nothing, unless like you said...you're paying out the yang to help fund their favorites. It's a disgrace that most of us aren't even recognized unless they need you for something...and that's never your opinion!

If what you all claim is true, it sounds like there may need to be an alternative group with the goal of carrying out some of the things that SPAR overlooks.

No, it's more like we need SPAR to handle it, that's what we pay our membership for

But if they aren't doing what you believe they should be doing, what's the benefit of being a member?  Why not keep your money?

That's exactly what many of us are discussing...and renewing our membership is certainly up in the air at this point. The thing of it is, as a whole, the idea of SPAR is a good and valued one...and there's more to the organization than just a few that, IMO, are holding it back from being all that it can be. This is why I'm undecided as to whether or not to remain as a paying member or not. I just feel that there's issues that need to be addressed and changes made to the board

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 21, 2008, 07:17:04 AM
No, it's more like we need SPAR to handle it, that's what we pay our membership for

THis is not my vision of how it's supposed to work (pay your membership and SPAR takes care of everything). The mebers are part of SPAR.
SPAR (the board) provides leadership and guidance. SPAR (members + board) work together in implementing the mission.
From the Bylaws:

QuoteThe mission of the Corporation is to provide leadership to the residents of Historic Springfield to revitalize, preserve, and restore the community through its diverse programs.

QuoteMembers are expected to provide periodic feedback via surveys and to be involved in revitalization activities and volunteer service to the community.

It would also be helpful to list specifically what you think SPAR should be doing rather than saying SPAR is not doing what it's supposed to. Also list the things SPAR does well and should be doing more of.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 20, 2008, 09:18:35 PM
I have attended meetings where no one is supposed to talk (except board members) but developers are allowed the floor whenever they so choose.

This is because SPAR is bought and paid for by the Springfield developers.  If you're not with them, you're shunned.  I was talking with a SPAR board memeber yesterday and was told that even though they are a board member they are not on the "executive committee" and are left out of most of the important discussions.  They said the executive committee of SPAR basically runs the show and makes all the decisions regardless of imput from other sources.  The meetings and "discussions" are mainly window dressing.  So unless you are privy to the machinations of the "in" group at SPAR, you're pretty much SOL.  Until this changes I would say let the "in" crowd foot the bill for their agenda.

SPAR Council, if you will remember, is the result of the combination of Historic Springfield Community Council (HSCC) and Springfield Preservation and Restoration (SPAR).  I was on the first SPAR Council board and Louise's first official act was to ignore the by-laws until I called her on them and then she simply worked around them to accomblish what she wanted.  Which was to add members to the board who were friendly to her and would vote her way. The by-laws have since been changed to match what she wanted to do.  I also believe the mission statement has been changed as well.  SRG came in first with the security fund idea and as been there ever since.  Louise Despain is with the developers and always has been.  In most organizations like this, the Executive Director works for the membership and directly answers to the board.  Yet with SPAR Council, it is obviously the other way around.  From conversations with board members, going to meetings and talking with Louise herself, it is quite clear who runs SPAR Council.  As long as this situation exists, the interests of the entire community will not be served, only the interests of certain special interest groups. 

At this stage, it perhaps would be easier to start a new organization.  With the implications of election irregularities and the make up of much of the board, getting a new Executive Director that truely had the interests of the entire community at heart and worked for the board or even a board that would vote to get a new Executive Director seems like a impossible task. It is a shame as some on the board truely do or at least once did have the desire to do the right thing.

Quote from: AlexS on September 21, 2008, 09:07:15 AM

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 21, 2008, 07:17:04 AM
No, it's more like we need SPAR to handle it, that's what we pay our membership for

THis is not my vision of how it's supposed to work (pay your membership and SPAR takes care of everything). The mebers are part of SPAR.
SPAR (the board) provides leadership and guidance. SPAR (members + board) work together in implementing the mission.
From the Bylaws:

QuoteThe mission of the Corporation is to provide leadership to the residents of Historic Springfield to revitalize, preserve, and restore the community through its diverse programs.

QuoteMembers are expected to provide periodic feedback via surveys and to be involved in revitalization activities and volunteer service to the community.

It would also be helpful to list specifically what you think SPAR should be doing rather than saying SPAR is not doing what it's supposed to. Also list the things SPAR does well and should be doing more of.

I didn't mean to imply that I pay my membership and that's that....I was trying to say that I pay my membership and expect the council to do what they're in place to do....but that doesn't happen. I also feel that the past several posts hit the nail on the head and actually responded to your questions.

SPAR need to stop thinking "upscale" and start thinking "urban scale."

SPAR's core leaders are unresponsive to criticism.

The organization needs greater operational and financial transparency.

The city thinks SPAR actually speaks for the residents of SPR. However, 1/2 of the time "SPAR" speaks to the city council or city agencies, they have not notified or consulted the neighborhood on the issue.

SPAR's executive leadership needs to work on how SPR issues are presented to the city.  SPR residents should be encouraged to contribute and participate; there needs to be coordination of message and a professional representative. A volunteer in this role would work as a hybrid community organizer and lobbyist. It has been highly effective in other transitional neighborhoods.

SPAR's core leadership must change their posture and tone when dealing with local business owners. They should value the Chicken Koop as much as 9th and Main--more so, because the Koop is actually open, stable, and busy.

Many of SPAR's ideas for Springfield are fundamentally flawed from urban planning standpoint. SPR needs more live-work developments and higher residential density for the neighborhood to work. The goal should not be turning every residence into a single family home. Many were not even built as such in the first place (hence some renovations being forced to keep the second door even after converting the house to single family). Multi-family homes and affordable housing should be a goal. They should value actual density, not the appearance of density.

SPAR needs a greater focus on development that promotes downtown connectivity. Why isn't SPAR leading the charge to get the block of Main between State and Union changed to two way traffic? Why does SPR work with the city to have "downtown" events in Klutho? Why doesn't the historic tour also feature downtown locations? SPR should be a part of Downtown, not an isolated off-shoot.


As another example, there are fundamental flaws in the Main Street design that are detrimental to neighborhood growth. Too many medians, too few cut-throughs, and no slant parking are a killer. Even the suggestion that we should forgo elaborate median plantings and irrigation in favor of palms and hardy native plants was met with disdain.

National retail should not be the immediate focus of SPAR's development plan. SPR needs to follow the same development path as every other neighborhood and we will be richer for it. Places like Pearl, Shantytown, Zombie, and the community garden should be encouraged to proliferate--making SPR the new Five Points. Kudos to neighborhood property owners for giving some of those places a change with fair rent; kudos also to those who invested in starting a business here. Good development flocks to trendy neighborhoods with a buzz, not empty neighborhoods "with promise."

Commercial rent prices must drop. Hionedes and other owners are a problem, but SPAR should work with the city to create robust commercial development incentives for developers and small businesses. Renovation, occupancy, and start-up grants would be useful. So would limited tax abatement on active--not empty--properties.

I applaud SPAR's hiring of an urban planner, but I hope he will challenge some of the SPAR's core assertions. I also hope that the new planner will meet with the board of MetroJacksonville to discuss urban connectivity issues.

Whether true or not, SPAR leadership maintains the appearance that they are too closely tied to SRG. As a result, the perception is that SRG has more leeway than other developers and individual homeowners. To avoid conflicts of interest, SPAR and SRG should quit sharing a lobbyist on municipal issues.

I agree with a neighbor who has pushed for SPAR to stop using the word "gentrification" in their literature. It's outdated and has bad connotations outside of Jacksonville.

The organization needs to reach out and represent all residents, be they renters or homeowners, developers or small business, black or white, wealthy or poor. SPAR should be reaching out to New Hope to get them back into the neighborhood, as well as encouraging new in-fill and renovation developers to create true affordable housing (i.e., closer to $150K than $250k). And all apartments are not evil; they are an urban necessity.

SPAR loves to conduct studies. When the studies do not say what they want them to say, they get grants for more studies. Many residents find the studies invasive and annoying, especially when their findings are swept under the rug. (However, MetroJacksonville did publish a good evaluation of the last study data.)

SPAR needs to ease off of their "at war" mentality. I appreciate those that made SPR home when it may have required that mindset, but it no longer does.

The executive leadership has lost sight of its commitment to historic preservation. That duty has been picked up by other neighborhood organizations-- sometimes putting them in direct opposition with SPAR. This leads to neighborhood rancor.

The city is beginning to understand that SPAR Council does not really speak for the community at large. And SPAR Council will continue to lose credibility as a result. Most residents know that Spar Council no longer speaks for them.  Nothing new here.  The best way to get change is to bring to the public what is really going on and who really is making those decisions.  People hold those positions and they must be made accountable or nothing will change. 

Yes, what "Spar Council" seems to want to see happen in Springfield is not in sync with reality, but that is because the few people who have any real input have only their own special interests in mind.  They see the world only in how it benefits them, not for the greater good.  If you want changes in how things are done, you must address the people factor - bring in new leadership, not just talk about how things should be and what should be done.

Quote from: strider on September 21, 2008, 12:29:48 PM
Yes, what "Spar Council" seems to want to see happen in Springfield is not in sync with reality, but that is because the few people who have any real input have only their own special interests in mind.  They see the world only in how it benefits them, not for the greater good.

It would be interesting to hear what people think "SPAR Council seems to want to see happen in Springfield" and compare it to what the residents want to see happen.
I have tried to figure out what the residents want to happen but am not sure if there is a majority who agrees on common goals.
Some of the more obvious goals like reduce crime, have clean streets, parks and alleys I think both SPAR and residents agree upon.

Several urban planning savy professionals  have run for the SPAR board. Some were successful, some were not, but the same core issues remain.

To change the leadership one must convince the broad SPAR membership -- who votes for the board--that these issues exist and need remedied. Thus, I would assert that discussion of issues remains relevant.

The problem with that is that "SPAR" doesn't want to hear what the neighborhood wants.  The organization doesn't even include all of it's board members in it's decision making process, so the thought of including mere resident's in the process is a stretch at best. As for the voting on members or issues, that is another issue entirely. 

Quote from: AlexS on September 21, 2008, 12:42:50 PM

Quote from: strider on September 21, 2008, 12:29:48 PM
Yes, what "Spar Council" seems to want to see happen in Springfield is not in sync with reality, but that is because the few people who have any real input have only their own special interests in mind.  They see the world only in how it benefits them, not for the greater good.

It would be interesting to hear what people think "SPAR Council seems to want to see happen in Springfield" and compare it to what the residents want to see happen.
I have tried to figure out what the residents want to happen but am not sure if there is a majority who agrees on common goals.
Some of the more obvious goals like reduce crime, have clean streets, parks and alleys I think both SPAR and residents agree upon.

The point is that only a few seem in on these decisions.  Yes, there seem to be shared goals, though it also seems that how you get to those goals are different.  Also, a goal can encompass a wide range of things - the details can be vastly different.  Like believing that to get rid of crime, you must remove all of the poor from an area.  Some believe it, others know better.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 21, 2008, 12:48:39 PM
Several urban planning savy professionals who have run for the SPAR board. Some were successful, some were not, but the same core issues remain.

To change the leadership one must convince the broad SPAR membership -- who votes for the board--that these issues exist and need remedied. Thus, I would assert that discussion of issues remains relevant.

Both certainly must be done.  It sometimes seems that the same people who are calling for change (not just on this forum) alternate between that and saying how great certain people (like Louise) are - you can't have both.  Either you want change in the organization, which really is the people running it, or not.

The SPAR council needs to be revisited, their goals and mission need to be revisited and the manner in which they handle business needs to be revisited. Members should have a say in what's being done, and for the most part, we don't. That needs to change.

True, the board has done good things, but they also pretty much exclude it's members from being more active. Pretty much all that happens is, we pay dues, we can attend meetings and cannot always voice our thoughts or opinions....and that must change. The members are voted into the positions (and that's another sore subject for another thread) but even all of them aren't included in all of the voting and business...that too must change.

Yes, Ms. DeSpain has done some very good things for Springfield, she's a formidable figure in this community...but with all due respect, she's seriously out of touch with what the neighborhood people want and or need. She was given the position she now holds, with no regards to what the membership wants, and that's wrong too.

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 21, 2008, 02:23:31 PM
Ms. DeSpain has done some very good things for Springfield, she's a formidable figure in this community...but with all due respect, she's seriously out of touch with what the neighborhood people want and or need. She was given the position she now holds, with no regards to what the membership wants, and that's wrong too.

In terms of leadership, SPAR is not immune to the truths of the business world. A certain executive may be just the person to head a start-up or negotiate a merger. However, another executive may be better equipped to handle rapid expansion, a re-tooling, or even a downsizing. Changing leadership does not diminish past accomplishments, it is a smart response to changing needs.

I agree with you, that a change in leadership takes nothing away from the good that has been accomplished, and there have been some great things done.

The few vocal, negative posters here that are demonizing and misrepresenting SPAR should look into the facts. SPAR is a neighborhood organization run by volunteers. Their board is just like any other board, made up of volunteers that meet once a month. Anyone can come to any meeting and be heard. By the way everyone is welcome at the monthly roundtable meeting, block captain meeting, SHADCO meeting, and Women's Club meeting also. The SPAR staff are in the office to collect information, answer questions and help residents and businesses when they can. SPAR, or any other organization for that matter does not have the power to be everything to everyone, it's just not realistic. If you attend any of the functions or meetings in Springfield you will see the same people working, VOLUNTEERING over and over again. This group is very diverse but the one thing they have in common is they are doers. We, as residents, are SPAR. On a recent cleanup that my family took on in the park I had several people come over to see what we were doing and comment that they would have helped if they had known and complained that SPAR didn't inform anyone. Well how could they have, when it was just something we felt was needed and instead of talking about it just did it. I'm so tired of hearing people say that SPAR doesn't represent them. What if your views are not in line with the majority of residents? What if they are but it is not known because you do not show up at anything to make your opinion known. SPAR cannot read your minds. Get out and get involved. Work for issues you believe in and quit griping when things don't go your way. We are a diverse neighborhood and will never all agree on anything. That's what makes us unique.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 21, 2008, 11:44:04 AM
SPAR loves to conduct studies. When the studies do not say what they want them to say, they get grants for more studies. Many residents find the studies invasive and annoying, especially when their findings are swept under the rug. (However, MetroJacksonville did publish a good evaluation of the last study data.)

Can someone please provide a link to the MetroJacksonville evaluation of the last study data ?

Quote from: AlexS on September 21, 2008, 03:22:42 PM

Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 21, 2008, 11:44:04 AM
SPAR loves to conduct studies. When the studies do not say what they want them to say, they get grants for more studies. Many residents find the studies invasive and annoying, especially when their findings are swept under the rug. (However, MetroJacksonville did publish a good evaluation of the last study data

So you think the studies are invasive and annoying but SPAR doesn't represent you. Maybe they should employ a crystal ball?

Quote from: AlexS on September 21, 2008, 03:22:42 PM
Can someone please provide a link to the MetroJacksonville evaluation of the last study data ?

Article:
Is Springfield a viable retail market?  (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/762/)

I'm sure Three Layers, Hola, The Pearl, Shantytown, The Chicken Koop, Jerome Brown's, Carl's, Mamma Mary's, KFC, Popeyes, Krystal and Chan's would say so.  Meeks Ross and Paulk, Baker Engineering, Springfield Cleaners, SRG and Dwellings seem to be doing just fine with their Springfield located businesses also. I'm sorry if I did not mention your business in this post. When you start counting you realize how many really are succeeding in our little one square mile. I've said all along that if someone offers a good or service that is desired they will get the support they need to grow and thrive. I have personally met many people that are interested in opening a business in Springfield but finding a viable location is hard. The people we need to focus on are the property owners. It would benefit them greatly if they would improve their properties and make them available for lease at a reasonable rate. I can wish can't I?

Quote from: movedsouth on September 21, 2008, 09:58:38 AM
For a while, board meeting notes had been published. Recently I didn't see them.

I agree, board meeting minutes should be published. I don't know why the recent ones were not published, but have published them now.
http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=18

This is what we want and we need SPAR to behind this and support it.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on September 21, 2008, 03:20:05 PM
The few vocal, negative posters here that are demonizing and misrepresenting SPAR should look into the facts. SPAR is a neighborhood organization run by volunteers. Their board is just like any other board, made up of volunteers that meet once a month. Anyone can come to any meeting and be heard.

I have been to a few board (and other meetings). You can typically listen, but not speak. SPAR board meetings have an agenda they must get through, understandably. As noted, there are SPAR meetings for the neighborhood that are more open forum. Attendance is strong at these meetings as well as those of other SPR orgs, including SHADCO.


The conversation on this thread has turned into discussing issues facing SPR and SPAR. Some residents who feel disenfranchised --many of whom have stellar volunteer records in the neighborhoods--are voicing valid criticisms of SPAR. Their voices should be heard and ideas discussed (in civil tone). Open discussion, even on touchy issues, typically yields greater understanding and progress.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on September 21, 2008, 03:20:05 PM
Get out and get involved. Work for issues you believe in and quit griping when things don't go your way. We are a diverse neighborhood and will never all agree on anything. That's what makes us unique.

The problem with name-blind message boards is that people often do not know the identities of other posters. Please be sensitive to the fact that many people who are participating in this discussion have logged hundreds or thousands of hours of volunteer work here in SPR.

That's exactly right, and making such statements merely reflect what one doesn't know. This will be a civil discussion, plain and simple. You may not like what someone else has to say, but they're certainly entitled to say it. So thank you, JaxByDefault....your points are right on.

I agree, so as someone who has been attending SPAR neighborhood and board meetings, being a member of many neighborhood organizations and volunteering on an regular basis since 2001 I'm pretty informed. To say that neighborhood meetings are well attended which is not the case makes me question your post. I have been attending board meetings for years and have always been allowed to speak. I am one of the biggest cheerleaders for Springfield and I do know many of the posters on this and the SPAR forum who are continually negative but when confronted with the fact that they do not attend meetings or functions use the excuse that they have to work. I understand that people have different responsibilities but you can't base your opinions on second hand information that is often filled with rumor and innuendo.

You're right Springfield Girl, SPAR neighborhood meetings aren't as well attended as some other groups in the neighborhood. I was attempting to be inclusive and perhaps even charitable to SPAR.

Actually, I think we do know each other -- and if my suspicions are right, we usually get along quite well.  :)

You've got me curious now.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on September 21, 2008, 05:11:12 PM
I agree, so as someone who has been attending SPAR neighborhood and board meetings, being a member of many neighborhood organizations and volunteering on an regular basis since 2001 I'm pretty informed. To say that neighborhood meetings are well attended which is not the case makes me question your post. I have been attending board meetings for years and have always been allowed to speak. I am one of the biggest cheerleaders for Springfield and I do know many of the posters on this and the SPAR forum who are continually negative but when confronted with the fact that they do not attend meetings or functions use the excuse that they have to work. I understand that people have different responsibilities but you can't base your opinions on second hand information that is often filled with rumor and innuendo.

I think the point of this discussion is it is even occurring, and there are many giving input. If this was on the SPAR board it would have been locked or deleted by now. People are not always going to agree, that doesn’t mean the conversation shouldn’t happen. By trying to silence even the complainers, you are just letting things simmer and eventually boil over. Why not have the discussion? People are feeling disenfranchised, you can see that from these posts, it needs to be addressed. Also what is wrong with new leadership? What is wrong with transparency? What is wrong with being held accountable? Why should the relationship between SPAR and SRG be so close as to make people wonder at all? I don’t understand the defensiveness.....I am happy the conversation can occur here without being shut down. People should be able to voice an opinion without being called a  whiner or griper, this is part of the issue people ARE complaining about! I am also VERY interested in what some of the urban experts on here think about Springfield and what should be happening.

I also agree that we probably all know one another, and have met face to face several times...and at neighborhood activities/functions...and yes, we all do get along.

Uptowngirl, once again, you've nailed it....if this (and a few other threads) were on the spar forum, it would've been locked and probably a few of us banned. Nor do I understand the hostility. Because open discussions such as this can lead to a solution...but then again, it's a matter of the council members not really listening to our concerns. They should be interacting with the members, as a forum can be a great source of information sharing, ideas, etc and as I said, solutions.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with any one of us expressing our dissatisfaction, even our anger over issues, especially when you feel they've been falling upon deaf ears. There's a growing resentment within our community, and it's creating a deeper void because many feel that the council members don't want to hear from us.

As one of the "negative" posters, I just wanted to say that what I have posted is not demonizing SPAR Council.  Odd that someone would use that phrase.  What I posted and what I know is based on personal experience.   The negatives posted by all of the "negative" posters about the current SPAR Council is pretty much spot on.  From personal knowledge.  

None of that means that everyone involved is bad and that nothing good comes out of SPAR Council.  It is the few that have the most say that seem to be the issue.  Some, as I stated before, have tried their best, but with the Executive Director seemly in charge instead of a real board, what can you expect?  Having board members that are friendly to the developers, if they do not actually work for the developers, directly or indirectly, doesn't help either.  The developer's agendas rarely coincide with what the community as a whole wants or needs.  The developers biggest concern is normally their own bottom line.  Actually as it should be, but should they have any real influence over the future of the community as a whole?  

Not all developers are bad for Springfield, either. For example, there are some amazing live/work row buildings being built on 6th. The 3rd and Main project will benefit Main's lagging streetscape.

Developers will likely (eventually) buy and build on 8th and Main. The issue is how SPAR (and the city) will interact with those developers and to what degree developers will be intergrated into a comprenhensive SPR plan. SPAR will have to evolve into a more masterful urban planning entity if they really want to solicit, manage, and hold accountable future neighborhood investors.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 21, 2008, 06:35:20 PMI am also VERY interested in what some of the urban experts on here think about Springfield and what should be happening.

Springfield has so much potential and the revitalization process is a simple one.  Just typing off the top of my head, here are some things that need to be accepted for commercial revitalization (in no particular order).

1. Accept the market for what it is

The retail studies showcase some interesting information, but if their main purpose is to attract national retailers, they may be a waste of time.  The reason they may be a waste is that major retailers already have this type of information on hand.  No one is going to trick a Publix, Target or even a Panera Bread to come in, based off a small neighborhood study that isolates itself from the surrounding neighborhoods.  If there is really a market for their product, they will find a way to get in on the action.

2. Focus on existing and local businesses

Inner city commercial revitalization techniques typically start with local mom and pops coming in to create a district with a special vibe.  Then the national guys end up following them.  Springfield should rally and infill around its existing local assets.  These would include the places like Shanty, the Pearl, the bike shop, Chan's, Carl's, Jerome Brown's, Three Layers, etc.  Places like KFC, Popeye's, Captain D's, Krystal, etc. should also be embraced, considering these are successful businesses that Downtown can not even attract.  So focus on helping the people already there improve their properties to create that unique Springfield vibe, before going after outsiders.

3. Embrace Density

I once read an article where someone had bragged about the neighborhood's population falling below 6,000, as if it were a good thing.  Springfield is a urban community that was developed to have and support a population density twice as large as it is today.  Main and 8th will never meet their potential if a dense collection of multi-family projects isn't encouraged to rise in the neighborhood.  Btw, when I mean neighborhood, I don't mean just 8th and Main.  A diverse mix of multifamily projects should be encouraged on ALL residential streets.  Afterall, that's how the community originally developed.

4. Push for Connectivity 

Why promote Springfield and Downtown as isolated islands?  If you combine their assets and promote them together, they pack a powerful punch.  This will also make it much easier to take advantage of the traffic traveling down State and Union.  Most see this area as no man's land, but considering those streets carry as much traffic as our suburban highways, they should be filled with a ton of retail serving the entire inner city.  Also, don't forget about the parks lining Hogans Creek.  The urban core was at its best when that park system was viewed as Jacksonville's Central Park.  Btw, the same goes for the neighborhoods to the north.  Some joint redevelopment efforts between Metro North and Springfield would also be beneficial to both communities.  Last, but not least, Springfield residents should really rally around bringing a commuter rail line to the S-Line.  Connecting this neighborhood with the rest of the city by rail will do more for this community then anything currently being pursued.

Thank you, Lakelander; All excellent points.

Springfield stands to gain a great deal from commuter rail. I would hope that the S-Line would be something that SPAR would really get behind. Since the city and JTA are just warming to the idea of rail, a push in that direction from neighborhood associations like SPAR and RAP would be a boon to the cause.

I would add that SPAR's problems with urban planning are shared, in large part, by the city government. The city itself does not have a robust urban planning vision or an active commitment to positive downtown/Springfield development. While SPAR's job would be easier if the city invested in revamping their planning, this forum demonstrates that SPAR has abundant neighborhood resources that they (for a variety of reasons) choose to under-utilize.

I'm still not sold on the idea that going through SPAR is the only way to get some life on Main Street.  Imo, SPAR is not the key player here.  Its the existing businesses and property owners.

It is the upturning of noses towards those businesses and people deemed beneath them, and the desperate desire to achieve "urban professional" status which harms Main Street and all of Springfield. 

What's the general population of residents upturning their noses, verses those who don't and the people who still drive down Main to get to places they enjoy?  For example, Chan's doesn't have "urban professional" status, but they have carved out a niche for their product.  The same goes for Jerome Brown's, Hola and a collection of other businesses.  I think the commercial corridors could be a pretty happening place, if a larger collection of local establishments that appeal to a larger crowd (the true market) operate in a manner where they complement each other.  But we will need to get to the point of where we view Main as the Northside's premier N/S commercial corridor, as opposed to an isolated 12 block strip through Springfield.

The desire to isolate Historic SPR from downtown and the Northside is highly detrimental, and one of the worst urban planning missteps in SPAR's vision.

The posture that most current Main Street businesses are temporary until "something better" comes along stifles small business growth and alienates a majority of the neighborhood residents.

The laser focus on larger developments on Main and 8th--especially during the economic downturn--is also problematic. Plenty of successful business operate tucked away on the residential streets, increasing the mix of uses and walkability of the neighborhood as a whole.

Many of SPAR's core leaders speak of Springfield in isolation as means of combating crime issues. However, they fail to recognize that economic development that reflects the diversity of the area's residents is the best way to reduce crime. Vibrant, busy neighborhoods tend to be safer neighborhoods.

I could not agree more with these posts. I have also been monitoring the discussion on the SPAR forum board. It appears steps have been taken to "squash" the conversation on that side (similar to what has been posted here about volunteers and whining and complaining) here are some exceprts, you be the judge is this how board members (or former board members) should be addressing concerns of the neighborhood?

" I have heard of many of the "evils" of SPAR, and invariably what it boils down to is not what is, or is not in the SPAR Mission (which is extremely broad) it is about who likes or dislikes who, and what personalities get along, or dont."

"To the request to have more board members post I would say that several used to fairly often but quit when it became non productive."

"The problem I have is with the people who complain about SPAR the organization and its volunteers but don't make their presence or their opinions known. We as residents ARE SPAR. Anytime I have had residents come to me with issues I have taken them to the group. So have most of the other board members. The majority though have never given us any more than "SPAR doesn't represent me" or "SPAR needs new leadership"."

"Go to the source, look for the facts, get involved and ask questions instead of complaining about things that are too late to change and accepting as truth everything you hear on the street."

"You're joking right? I think you should be the first to apply to replace one of the ousted VOLUNTEER board members. I'm sure your positive attitude would contribute so much more to the organization than any of the current members possibly could."

"The few vocal, negative posters here that are demonizing and misrepresenting SPAR should look into the facts."

"I'm so tired of hearing people say that SPAR doesn't represent them."

"Work for issues you believe in and quit griping when things don't go your way."

"So you think the studies are invasive and annoying but SPAR doesn't represent you. Maybe they should employ a crystal ball?"


I think you can see a trend in responses, why should the neighbors bring anything up when this is the type of answers they receive? Perhaps if members (besides developers) could speak up at meetings people could get their points, intrests and needs across? As to the very last quote, SPAR has NO business knowing someone's income, none at all. As stated by a former board member on the SPAR forum: It is also my view that SPAR is a tool of people who volunteer, not some sort of government entity that is there to do our every whim and bidding"  So why do we get census requests from SPAR? It seems to be trend here, we are not the government, but when it suits our needs we are.

Now, if you take a step back and look at comments here and try to take your personal sense of offense out of it, you will see people ARE providing feedback to SPAR, in a forum that can not be squashed, that allows them to state it how it is without being shutdown, locked down, or banned. This is an opportunity if you so choose to hear from people in the neighborhood, and work for the betterment of the neighborhood. People don't go to the meetings because nothing comes out of it. Emails sent to SPAR are not answered or answered weeks later. No one (except certain individuals) are allowed to speak at meetings. A list of sub-committees and groups was listed earlier, but who determined these were the issues/groups that would fit the needs of the neighborhood? (btw, the wine club (while fab and fun) is not really something I would consider as a "tool of SPAR" unless SPAR includes in their mission drinking and eating as a goal? SACARC is part of the Woman's Club not SPAR, as are several other groups mentioned. In fact I think you could argue tht these individual groups, and most importantly the Woman's Club actually do MORE for the neighborhood than SPAR.

So perhaps it is not that people are not making their wants and needs known, perhaps it is SPAR who is not listening? Perhaps SPAR is not communicating enough, or listening when neighbors are trying to communicate with you?

Why don't you list at least five major items SPAR has done in the past year right here?

Why don't you address the rumors going around the hood? If we should go to the source, then consider this going to the source:

What has SPAR done for the neighborhood lately?

Why have board members quit?

Why are board members selected and not voted in as replacements? I know of some that were selected by the board just a couple of months prior to a vote.

Why is the community not informed of resignations, and then offerred the chance to throw their hat in the ring, even if the board is going to decide who gets the opening?

Did SPAR use funds from the general fund to pay for "pet projects"?

Why doesn't SPAR at least attempt to get representation from each quadrant for the board? I can think of two quadrants that are almost completley ignored.

Why do the neighbors not receive meeting minutes?

Why are there so many members with actual ties to or quasi ties to one person in the neighborhood?

Why did SPAR decide to not publish how board members vote on items?

Why was Louise given a "lifetime postion" without a vote from the neighborhood?

Why has SPAR decided to concentrate on commerical developement with out input from the neighborhood?

What exactly is SPAR's Urban plan?

What is SPAR working on?

What is goign on with the Crime fund? Where are they patrolling, who are they arresting, why if private funds are being used are the arrests being reported being lumped in with the everyday arrests being made by patrol and vice officers? How does SPAR (and neighbors) know their money is being spent wisely?

Here is a list of questions, no slamming of SPAR. I would think addressing these could go a long way towards creating a cohesive neighborhood. Shouldn't everyone living here have a say in the plans for the neighborhood? Since speaking up at the meeting is not an option for "just residents". forum discussions are squashed, and meeting minutes non-existent, then communication needs to happen in a new way.






Edited becasue I did forget to add that a few of these comments are from former board members*****

There are some good questions here.

I would add:

How does SPAR see SPR as an essential part of downtown and the surrounding communities?

What large-scale urban planning initiatives would SPAR like to see, and support, for Jacksonville as a whole?

Will SPAR commit to actively support commuter rail in Jacksonville and transit-oriented development in SPR and the urban core?

What are SPAR's plans for working with the city to bring concrete development incentives to SPR? Will these target only large-scale developers? What LISC incentives are SPAR developing and planning to introduce?

What does SPAR define as affordable housing? What is being done to promote affordable housing initiatives in SPR? Does SPAR reach out to the affordable housing programs of surrounding neighborhoods?

How is SPAR reaching out to all existing SPR businesses, even those who do not regularly participate in SPAR?

Many of the posters here have expressed the need for greater communication between SPAR and residents and a desire for greater organizational transparency. However, many board resignations are for personal and family reasons. It is problematic to read all resignations as a referendum on SPAR itself.

I appreciate most all of the posters here contributing to an issues-based discussion. I hope that we all continue to refrain from the rumor, rancor, and name-calling that undermines these types of discussions elsewhere.



__________
Edited for typo.

First I would like to give congrats to Met Jax for having an admin that calls out posters on your site and discloses them and their identities on others.

Second, this is typical of the game being played in the neighborhood today. Legit questions asked, childish responses and actions taken. I believe this is the same thing that happened to Stephen (wow same person too!)

How to carry on a civil discourse with people like this? Doesn't Met Jax have some rules?

Since one of SouthernNolaBelles alter egos over at MetroJacksonville asked question specific to our discussion, and since she is temporarily banned, is unable to do so here, I will repost her specific questions, and answer them from my point of view.


Quote:
Why don't you list at least five major items SPAR has done in the past year right here?
These are only things I am aware of, I am certain there is more
The Monthly Roundtable meetings are extemely important. I know Joan is upset about them being during business hours, but that is the only time that SPAR is able to get represenatives from city departments and agencies.

Heritage Days was a pretty massive undertaking

Restore Jacksonville partnership with RAP

Developing a partnership with LISC, and establishing what has to happen to kick commercial development in the butt to get it going

Quite a bit of time was spent preparing for Summertime in the City (a Main St music festival), which due to things outside of our control, did not happen.

Why don't you address the rumors going around the hood? If we should go to the source, then consider this going to the source:
As someone who has spent a significant amount of time trying to flush out many of these rumors it is often a complete waste of time. SPAR should do a better job of communicating what it does. This is a criticism I have always had, but SPAR doesnt have the resources for a full time rumor buster, and those of us dumb enough to have tried, have been time and again sucked into controversies for simply trying to get the questiosn answers.

What has SPAR done for the neighborhood lately?
Redundant question.

Why have board members quit?
As I am the only one who quit recently, I have already stated that family health concerns, and work were the main motivators. I wont claim to know others motivations.

Why are board members selected and not voted in as replacements? I know of some that were selected by the board just a couple of months prior to a vote.
Appointments are a way for SPAR to fill certain voids. It is important SPAR have people from the all areas of the community. Alex, for instance, was appointed. I submitted Alex' name because he is very knowledgeable in technological areas, and I felt he was a strong representative for an area of the neighborhood that felt disenfranchised. I also thought his penchant for whistle blowing would help SPAR stop seeming "secretive" as has been claimed..

Why is the community not informed of resignations, and then offerred the chance to throw their hat in the ring, even if the board is going to decide who gets the opening?
Not all resignations are filled with appointments. I would assume my former seat will be up for a vote in October.
Did SPAR use funds from the general fund to pay for "pet projects"?
Can you be more specific? SPAR has a minut amount of resources, the vast percentage of which goes to employees salarys and day to day bills (at least it used to)

Why doesn't SPAR at least attempt to get representation from each quadrant for the board? I can think of two quadrants that are almost completley ignored.
To my knowledge, there is representation from every quadrant. It used to be (and may still be) in the by-laws that there be a member from each quad.

Why do the neighbors not receive meeting minutes?
Why dont neighbors who want them simply ask for them?

Why are there so many members with actual ties to or quasi ties to one person in the neighborhood?
I assume that you mean we are all somehow tied to Mack. I am not sure how the board members are tied to him. One board member has a long working relationship with him, but she is very much her own person. Is there a reason why people who know or work with him should be excluded?

Why did SPAR decide to not publish how board members vote on items?
A simple yes or no vote doesnt speak to the reasons behind the vote.

Why was Louise given a "lifetime postion" without a vote from the neighborhood?
She was not given a lifetime position, to my knowledge (this may have changed, and I am simply not aware) She serves at the will of the board, and can be replaced or removed at any time by way of board vote.

Why has SPAR decided to concentrate on commerical developement with out input from the neighborhood?
Nothing is done in a vacuum. Nothing is done without input. It is impossible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time, so often, a large percentage of the community will feel the prioroties are all wrong when another large percentage agree. As you are aware SPAR sent out a survey, and the #1 issue on that survey was commercial development. That sounds like a mandate to me

What exactly is SPAR's Urban plan?
As I am not an urban planner, so I wont claim to know

What is SPAR working on?
Not on the board, so I wont claim to be up on things

What is goign on with the Crime fund? Where are they patrolling, who are they arresting, why if private funds are being used are the arrests being reported being lumped in with the everyday arrests being made by patrol and vice officers? How does SPAR (and neighbors) know their money is being spent wisely?
This question has been asked by you before. Accordingly, SPAR has made every effort to get JSO to be transparent, and JSO has stated quite frankly, it would be impossible to give 100% accurate data as they do not break down the arrests and activity in this manner. However, after many long discussions, LT Kenney agreed to bring monthly stats to the monthly roundtable meeting


I should again state, I am no longer a board member, and have not been to a meeting in months, so I wont claim my answers are anything but what I believe to be the answers.

It is never good manners to reveal someone's identity on a forum board with out their consent. Even people you know as friends or neighbors may wish to remain unknown here.

On this issue, the anonymity offered by this forum board is helping us focus on the merits of arguments rather than personal squabbles.

Similarly, please avoid cross-posting from SPAR's own forum boards.

The difference here is "outing people". In taking a couple (and it was literally a couple of comments, the majority came form this board) of thread pertinent comments (without revealing names) and taking someone's board identity and exposing it to everyone. As an admin of these boards, personal information can be obtained, it should NOT be shared. There is a big difference. Besides, people cross post all the time. If it is pertinent to the conversation, and names are withheld to protect posters then I do not see an issue, then it is just censorship.

as far as the forum board concerns: my personal opinion is no censor or moderating at all. let all hit the fan. we are all adults. we should be able to handle it.

Quote from: Downtown Dweller on September 22, 2008, 11:35:43 AM
The difference here is "outing people". In taking a couple (and it was literally a couple of comments, the majority came form this board) of thread pertinent comments (without revealing names) and taking someone's board identity and exposing it to everyone. As an admin of these boards, personal information can be obtained, it should NOT be shared. There is a big difference. Besides, people cross post all the time. If it is pertinent to the conversation, and names are withheld to protect posters then I do not see an issue, then it is just censorship.

Just to put one bad misconception to rest, No Administrator on this forum has outed anyone.  Our admins/moderators are me, Lunican, Steve, Jason, Jbm32206, Ocklawaha and Riversidegator (national politics).

DTP is listed as an moderator is he not?

As a side note I could care less, as I say nothing I won;t say to people in person. I just find it distrurbing that DTP is listed as a moderator on this and is outing people on other forums.(Moderators: jbm32206, downtownparks)

No one is censoring anyone. In fact, this has been a very robust and mostly issue-centered debate.

I'm not a fan of cross-posting because it leaves a large number of MetroJacksonville readers out of the part of the discussion taking place on the SPAR forum boards. Downtown Dweller's first post collected quotes from other posts, provided a context, and proposed some good questions. I wish someone would have provided answers to them on this board, addressing some of the issues raised by other posters as well.

This is a great discussion...let's not let it get weighed down.

Quoting the SPAR forum boards answer to Downtown Dweller's post: Developing a partnership with LISC, and establishing what has to happen to kick commercial development in the butt to get it going

What is the current relationship with LISC and what programs will the LISC/SPAR partnership introduce?
What are its development goals?
Who will its incentive target?
Who on SPAR most regularly meets with the people from LISC? Who has imput on the these programs? Who will shepherd them in the neighborhood?
Are there reports, survey data, proposals, etc. from the LISC/SPAR partnership that residents and SPAR members may view?

Quote from: Downtown Dweller on September 22, 2008, 11:56:27 AM
DTP is listed as an moderator is he not?

As a side note I could care less, as I say nothing I won;t say to people in person. I just find it distrurbing that DTP is listed as a moderator on this and is outing people on other forums.(Moderators: jbm32206, downtownparks)

DTP, is no longer a moderator.  He resigned and was replaced by Ocklawaha.  If you see any threads where screen names are being outed, let a moderator know by sending them a PM.

SPAR can't win. What one resident thinks is right for the neighborhood another thinks is totally wrong. I've posted that no one entity can handle everything, and lucky for us we have many groups to get involved in. The majority of people in the neighborhood find their cause and work tirelessly to meet their goals without getting involved with any of the forum boards. If you want to know the truth it's out there. SPAR has open meetings that anyone can attend, a monthly roundtable meeting with representatives from all city departments that is open to the public, a newsletter mailed out monthly, email updates, a staff on call in the office five days a week and far too many functions to mention here. I don't know how they can be anymore transparent. I go to meetings and speak up, I read the newsletters and email updates, I call and stop in at the office when I need more information and I choose to see the glass half full. I've tried but I can't argue with people who get upset about being called whiners but find it okay to use the derogatory and false term  LOLA'S to further an agenda.

What is a LOLA?

I think many valuable questions have been raised here which are deserving of answers. I have collected quite a few of them and brought them before the full SPAR board.

I believe answers should be coming from the full board and be representative of SPAR's stand on these issues. Answers should be compiled by the individual subject matter experts and be approved or voted on by the board.

While I also encourage and think it to be beneficial for individual board members to communicate their views on forum boards they can not replace a unified answer coming from SPAR as an organization. It would however help the membership to get to know the views of individual board members so they know who to vote for the next time.

Better communication has been one of the issues I have tried to address as a board member for some time now. While meetings are open to the public I think it is also important to post an agenda before hand and minutes afterwards.

Regarding board meetings I think guests should only be allowed to speak if they are on the agenda. If someone wants to discuss a particular topic they can be put on the agenda. Due to limited time available for the board meeting it would not be practical for everyone to be heard. Some items may need to be deferred to the next meeting.

At the SPAR general meetings I believe there should be more interaction with the membership. This should be the place to exchange ideas, answer questions and provide a forum for open discussion. I wish more board members would attend the general meeting and participate in such discussions.

I appreciate all the input and feedback which has been provided thus far.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on September 22, 2008, 12:23:14 PM
SPAR has open meetings that anyone can attend, a monthly roundtable meeting with representatives from all city departments that is open to the public, a newsletter mailed out monthly, email updates, a staff on call in the office five days a week and far too many functions to mention here. I don't know how they can be anymore transparent.

Many of the concerns voiced here in previous posts about the need for greater transparency called for increased fiscal transparency (especially in regards to special funds), disclosure about possible conflicts of interest, publication of survey and report results, and publication of full meeting minutes (including executive meetings).

AlexS already noted that he is catching up with publication of SPAR Board meeting minutes on the SPAR forum boards. That's a positive step. As of a few days ago, the SPAR forum only had minutes through 2006 published. AlexS is also taking questions to the board, which is sincerely appreciated and another positive step.

SPAR does send a weekly update, though I would call them far from thorough. They are a good reminder of upcoming events, profile big news like the hiring of the new planner, and solicit needed donations. Occasionally, they mention the appointment of someone new to the board. A recent note called for neighbors to share their vision for SPR and SPAR. That's what many of us are doing here: formulating a vision with concrete urban planning goals for SPR (and beyond) that we can advocate.

You know, I dont usually chime in on this stuff but I have a few free minutes...

2 years ago when we were planning opening in Springfeild, I was more than a little concerned about how the neighborhood powers that be would react to my bussiness. I deal in street art and heavy metal, beer and Hip Hop, arts and entertainment, youth and noise.... things not generally rumored to be embraced by SPAR and the traditional LOLAs that I had been warned about.

And two years later, I have to say, everyone pretty much has been welcomeing and helpful. Now I dont know what they belive to be their misson- and I have never been to a SPAR meeting... but...

4 guys in there 30-40s I that have been involved in SPAR council (I will call them D-D-P-and M) have always been great customers and support.
P has went the extra mile, donating fans, coolers, tools, and volunteer hours to the bike co-op and record store.

If there ever has been a problem with noise or traffic, almost everyone from the SPAR side of the hood has been respectful and level headed about voiceing their complaints. And I have complied the best I can to make a positive, not negative impact on the hood.

Even when I met Ms. Despain, I found her to be sweet, sharp, helpful, and very informed on putting events together, permit proccesses, insurance issues, ect.

And SRG- and Mack specifically, as a small bussiness owner I can say he is the only one around in power that "gets it". They are making constant positive progress, and really the ONLY developmental progress I see being made in the neighborhood. See, Mack is cool as a cucumber. He is a PBR drinking, classic rock loving pretty normal guy. And even though we have an age difference between us, we have a good working relationship- he really does want to see more pubs, more bike shops, more record shops and is actively moving to make it reality. He always has a wealth of "fatherly" advice everytime we speak.

SPAR, Animal care, mommies club, and SAMBA have all been an asset to my bussiness. They include me to vend at their events, they hire me for DJ services, and sometimes frequent my establishment.

Look guys, you have crackheads wandering the neigborhood like zombies. You got some backward ass rednecks in your neighborhood. Transexual hookers and abandoned buildings are the norm.... my point is you are fighting between yourselfs when the real enemy is the people who are not involved in neighborhood bussiness or organizations.

Now again, I stay un involved in neighborhood politics and SPAR processes and gossip on purpose. So maybe my opinion on the matter is not 100% valid. Maybe they do need a revolt. But again, as a young small bussiness owner, I am glad to have a neighborhhood association, small bussiness association, animal care club, ect. ect. on my side.

I

Crime is definetely an issue. Maybe SPAR should "make the cops do something about it". That sounds like too simple of an awnser.

All I am saying, as a small bussiness owner and me being who I am, I had a preconcived notion that these people were gonna be a bunch of dicks. They have not, in fact they have been 100% freindly and helpful. At least to my face:)

Yes, they probably could do more if they reorganized. I would be willing to volunteer my time and efforts to make them stronger, anytime they ask. And if I needed help with a permit for the bike shop or a neigborhood watch or something, I would ask them and they would help me. No questions asked.

And I stand by the fact that Mack is cool a as a cucumber!!!

Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2008, 02:49:40 PM
Why are the tall palmetto bushes being allowed to grow up and block sight lines all the way down main street, protecting the criminals that are coming back from being observed?

On 7th street this weekend, the bus benches had people interacting on them all night.  Both of them on catty corners of the street.

On 8t and Main, there was a 400 pound man making packet transfers with guys on bicycles all night.

On the bus shelter in front of the old Premier grocery store there was a hooker performing fellatio totally hidden in the obscurity of the Palmettos on both Friday and Saturday Nights.

At 5th and Main, there were three guys there until about 4am walking back and forth to more bicycle guys.

At the Halsema building there was crack trade being conducted without any let up in the business until 3 am.

On Hubbard, between 7th and 8th there is all kinds of troubling activity happening in the dark and out of site.

Lights are out all the way down Main, and even across from Shantytown, the street light is so clogged with dead insects that it no longer really illuminates the building.

These are things that the neighborhood needs to get a handle on before they multiply (as they have over the past two months)  The problems will exacerbate as the buildings previously owned by Van Horn empty out.

Did anyone manage to pull the fairly expensive banners out of the historic light poles installed on Main Street during the Hurricane?  Or were they all torn to peices?

No the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge.

Quote from: fatcat on September 22, 2008, 11:40:49 AM
as far as the forum board concerns: my personal opinion is no censor or moderating at all. let all hit the fan. we are all adults. we should be able to handle it.

That's pretty much the case, but I don't allow personal attacks and I would ask that people refrain from certain profanity...personal/good judgment is what we ask and hope for

Thanks for the comments, Triclops. Do not worry; it goes without saying that your opinion is 100% valid. 

I am very glad to see SPAR and the neighborhood supporting your businesses. Shantytown indeed serves as central gathering place for several current and former SPAR board members. I know your places appear on my bank statements pretty regularly. :)

A long while ago, Mack asked the "young professional" set what they wanted to see in SPR, given the parameters of what would work in the neighborhood right now. I give him credit for cornering most of us at one time or another, at some neighborhood event, and asking us questions. He listened to stories of student loan debt that handicapped house buying power, places like the Pearl and Shanty drawing crowds of people into the neighborhood at night, rents in Five Points going up and driving beloved local places out of business--places that would be drawn to Springfield with fair commercial rent. Many noted moving here because of the proximity to downtown and the diversity of the community. I made a special point of thanking him for working out an arrangement for the Darty property with you all. I thought it represented a huge leap forward in thinking about successful local businesses and Main St. properties.

Most of us are willing to give credit where it is due, be it to a person or an organization. However, past accomplishments and do not mitigate the fact that some very real issues still exist here.

All of the criticisms and critics here cannot be painted with one brush. Some want a clean state with leadership; others want more responsive leadership. Personally, there are several board members who I think are a good fit for the job. I would advocate a shift in focus and a minor reorganization.

This thread has put several issues on the table, I hope they are heartily discussed throughout Springfield. Hopefully, open and issues-driven discussion can help form a more cohesive, more urban planning savvy, and more vibrant neighborhood.

And that's exactly what most of us want...and the first step is to have open and solution driven communication.

Jbm32206 has upped the challenge to

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 22, 2008, 04:49:33 PM
solution driven communication

.

I like it. And I will now co-opt it.

I guess now that van Horne has left the scene we only have SPAR to blame for the failings of the neighborhood or even of certain individuals.   ;)

No one is blaming SPAR for lack of progress?  Ok.  Perhaps I misread the multiple posts which blamed SPAR for not providing services and not helping the neighborhood enough.    ;)

SPAR developed a strategic plan this year in May. I have started posting some details about it here:
http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4129

I personally think that a 2 hour SPAR board meeting once a month does not provide enough time to cover all the complex issues at hand.

I believe the SPAR board should better utilize modern technology like the forum board and email more. The way I could envision things to work is the following:

SPAR general meeting, forum board and email can be utilized to gather pressing issues from the membership and stay in touch. Issues are catgorized, prioritized and assigned to sub committees.

Subcommittees consisting of one or more SPAR board members, SPAR members and volunteer subject matter experts discuss potential solutions and recommendations for the issues presented.

The outcome of the subcommittees is then taken back to the stakeholders for comments. Ultimately the SPAR board selects the best solution from the subcommittee and takes it forward as SPAR recommendation to e.g. City departments, JSO, JEA, ...

Alexs, this is exactly what I've been trying to say is needed, and you've nailed it...

Thanks, AlexS. Your responses and actions today are sincerely appreciated.

I would love to see the whole of this strategic plan when it is available for members. As of now, the information is rather vague.

I am especially interested in seeing what benchmarks are set for the measurable targets within the stated categories of "restore, revitalize, engage residents, lead the Organization."

I am also saddened by the lack of rail transit and downtown connectivity as a "Wild Successes" goals.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on September 22, 2008, 05:48:25 PM
I would love to see the whole of this strategic plan when it is available for members. As of now, the information is rather vague.

Please check again. I have added the details.

There have been a lot of very good posts here.  Hopefully this type of dialog can continue.  Since others have mentioned Mack by name, so will I.  Mack has his own ideas about things and if you are on his good list, good for you, if not, watch your back.  That’s OK and I actually like Mack.  His vision for Springfield as I came to know it is not what is - at least as I see it - what is best for Springfield in the long term.  But people can and do disagree on things all the time.  Just SOP, as I see it.

What should not be tolerated is the handling over of control of an community organization to a select few so they can insure their future profits.  And that is, I’m afraid, is what has happened with SPAR Council.

quote Stephendare: - and to comment on a few things….

The set of problems described in this thread are EXACTLY why the neighborhood split into two groups for over 10 years. SPAR was deprived of city monies and became a loose cannon of occasional effectiveness that tried for a decade to overcome a property giveaway and financing debacle that drove many of the early pioneers out of the neighborhood. - Pretty much the way I was told it was.

Historic Springfield Community Council was formed by Phil Neary to do the actual hard work (that is no longer being done btw) of restoring the neighborhood. Phil Neary did not form HSCC - it was actually a result of the primary study used to create the historic district and make up the guidelines and overlay.  And yes, Phil Neary (and Lisa for that matter) did more for this community than most realize.  Also, Phil, with all his “power”, actually still recognized that he “worked at the discretion of the board, who in turn, knew that they worked for the community as a whole.

At the beginning of this decade, powered by involvement by many in the arts community and the backing of the developers and a generally positive vibe, SPAR began to resurge. Seems like this is pretty accurate.

A few years ago, SPAR and HSCC decided to stop being at cross purposes and merge. This was actually in response to two things.  First, SPAR was trying to talk to the city again and the city said they would be happier if Springfield spoke from one organization and, and this is the real biggy , Phil Neary was ready to step down and move on.  Not to detract from Pam, but Phil was so entrenched that it was hard to replace him. Pam also had it hard as an ED for the new organization for many,  many reasons, none of which were her doing.

The city would condone the merger only under the requirement that the democratic institutions of HSCC (widespread neighborhood involvement and buy in and representation from all four of the arbitrary 'quadrants', an accounting process, and accountability to the members) was instituted. This was actually a requirement for the organization to receive it’s substantial grant every year.  Nothing more. Which it gave up a year or two earlier than it would have dried up on it’s own?

After months of negotiation the two organizations merged and seemed to be honestly trying to retain the best qualities of both. (positive vibe and energy from the new SPAR group and actual organization and accountability from HSCC), but it seems as though that has failed.  Actually, not true.  The organization was sort of “ruled by an iron hand“- the same hand that rules it today - from the first meeting on.  Why I left.


One of the best things I have heard from this latest discussion is that AlexS is on the board.  If he doesn’t get beaten down first, he is one who can help get the changes needed in and enforced. 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2008, 10:03:13 PM
4. Push for Connectivity 

Why promote Springfield and Downtown as isolated islands?  If you combine their assets and promote them together, they pack a powerful punch.  This will also make it much easier to take advantage of the traffic traveling down State and Union.  Most see this area as no man's land, but considering those streets carry as much traffic as our suburban highways, they should be filled with a ton of retail serving the entire inner city.  Also, don't forget about the parks lining Hogans Creek.  The urban core was at its best when that park system was viewed as Jacksonville's Central Park.  Btw, the same goes for the neighborhoods to the north.  Some joint redevelopment efforts between Metro North and Springfield would also be beneficial to both communities.  Last, but not least, Springfield residents should really rally around bringing a commuter rail line to the S-Line.  Connecting this neighborhood with the rest of the city by rail will do more for this community then anything currently being pursued.

Does Downtown or Metro North have a neighborhood organization comparable to SPAR ? Who would SPAR best discuss such alliances with ?

DVI and the JEDC for downtown and Metro North for Metro North.  Btw, Metro North has a representative who attends all the SAMBA general monthly meetings.

Metro North Community Development Corporation
Ronald Pauline, executive director
3105 N. Main St.
(904) 358-1224

Downtown Vision, Inc.
Terry Lorince, executive director
214 N. Hogan Street, Suite 120
(904) 634-0303

Jacksonville Economic Development Council (JEDC)
Ron Barton, Executive Director
1 West Adams Street, Suite 200
(904) 630-1858

Stephendare - to illustrate what I meant by the "iron Hand" comment:  When the by-laws were re-written for the merger, the number of board members was reduced from the old HSCC days.  By the way, HSCC had specific positions just for renters and "absentee" business owners as well as dividing it up into the four quadrants. Four board positions were "reserved" - not to be used at first.  The idea was that these positions could be used for things like getting an accountant on the board, or perhaps someone from the churches - whatever the future may indicate was needed.  Initially, they were to be appointed by a board vote. At the first meeting Louise just announce the four new board members she appointed.  I took her aside and told her that was against the by-laws and she did not have the authority to do that.  She was very nice about it and said she didn't realize that (Yeah, right!) and that it would be done properly.  We had a retreat a couple of weeks later.  The four "appointees" were there - even though it was for board members only - and a "vote" was held there to make it all "legal".  Anyone care to guess who (other than Louise) the four were very friendly with? 

Shortly after that, SRG people came in with the "security fund" idea.  I was against it as I still do not believe that an organization such as SPAR Council should be the the security business.  It strikes me as against the mission of such an organization.  I also still wonder why and what business or tax benefit there was to running the security for their projects through SPAR Council, a non-profit.  There must be one or else why would the do it?  And believe me, at the time, it was obvious that was all it was - making the cost of their security a donation to a non-profit organization.

I was pretty much treated the way many of the more current board members have stated.  Kept out of the real decision making and used only when needed.  You would go to a board meeting, have a discussion and it would be very apparent that the outcome of the vote was decided long before.  And, some time ago, the original by-laws were changed to give Louise the power to appoint who she wanted to the board.  I have not read the latest by-laws so I don't know whether that has been changed again or not. 

More recently, in conversations with a board president,  I was promised one thing from him and Louise basically told me they weren't doing it.  I realized what she meant was: she didn't agree to it, and it made no difference what the president or other board members said.  Sorry, but in most organizations, the board and it's chairman or president has more say about policy than a "hired" Executive Director.  All of this sort sounds like an "iron hand" at work to me. 

SRG as a developer should not have as much influence as it does over a community organization that is supposed to represent all of the residents, regardless of their social-economic status.  SRG's position for the community is one that is a "broken window" policy.  If a building has one broken window, someone will come along and break more.  Keep the building's windows all nice and pretty and no one will break any of them.  Sounds harmless enough.  In fact, it is a common policy and has some merit when actually applied to buildings.  However, SRG's management and SPAR Council seem to apply it to people.  Those they consider undesirable, whether they be people or businesses, become the broken window and to fix it, you simple get them out of the community.  If you don't, more of the undesirables will come, if you get rid of them, then the "building" will be pretty again.

Of course, we want the crime gone.  Of course we want the criminals some where else.  But lets be real about who they are and lets support the people that have been the real supporters of the business on Main Street and not try to get rid of them because they do not meet someone's standard of income or social status.  I think that once the real demographics are accepted, real progress can be made on the commercial corridor.  Still, look at Metro North as the leader here.  Not SPAR Council.  Not unless radical changes are made in it's "management".

Sorry - I found my soap box a bit.  Hope I at least answered your question.

QuoteSRG's position for the community is one that is a "broken window" policy.  If a building has one broken window, someone will come along and break more.  Keep the building's windows all nice and pretty and no one will break any of them.  Sounds harmless enough.  In fact, it is a common policy and has some merit when actually applied to buildings.

With all the talk back and forth, I went and asked Mack about his "broken window" theory. He had this to say (not verbatim, but close, so I have taken the liberty of using quotes)...

"Who doesn't want to live in an area that's clean?!? Broken window theory is not my theory. It has been studied nationwide, even worldwide, by sociologists, scholars, and institutions and people who are way smarter than me. Please post this description of broken window theory from Henry Cisneros, former secretary of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) on my behalf."

-------------------
This explanation of the "broken window" theory was written by Henry G. Cisneros when he was Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. It was published in a series of essays titled "Defensible Space: Deterring Crime and Building Community" - January 1995.

James Q. Wilson and George Kelling developed the `broken windows' thesis to explain the signaling function of neighborhood characteristics. This thesis suggests that the following sequence of events can be expected in deteriorating neighborhoods. Evidence of decay (accumulated trash, broken windows, deteriorated building exteriors) remains in the neighborhood for a reasonably long period of time. People who live and work in the area feel more vulnerable and begin to withdraw. They become less willing to intervene to maintain public order (for example, to attempt to break up groups of rowdy teens loitering on street corners) or to address physical signs of deterioration.

Sensing this, teens and other possible offenders become bolder and intensify their harassment and vandalism. Residents become yet more fearful and withdraw further from community involvement and upkeep. This atmosphere then attracts offenders from outside the area, who sense that it has become a vulnerable and less risky site for crime. The "broken window" theory suggests that neighborhood order strategies such as those listed below help to deter and reduce crime.

- Quick replacement of broken windows
- Prompt removal of abandoned vehicles
- Fast clean up of illegally dumped items, litter and spilled garbage
- Quick paint out of graffiti
- Finding (or building) better places for teens to gather than street corners
- Fresh paint on buildings
- Clean sidewalks and street gutters
--------------------

"Doing these things doesn't just make Historic Springfield a better place for SRG (remember I live in the community with my family, so it's important to me as a resident). It makes it a better place for ALL area residents."

right...and Bagrin agrees it is has merit for buildings, but not for people. 

Quote from: sheclown on September 24, 2008, 06:55:28 PM
right...and Bagrin agrees it is has merit for buildings, but not for people. 

sorry. i am a little lost here. "broken window theory" applies to people?

Zoo -

Yes, I agree and it is great when applied to structures and a physcial location like a block in a neighborhood.  But you didn't quote this part of my post:

  However, SRG's management and SPAR Council seem to apply it to people.  Those they consider undesirable, whether they be people or businesses, become the broken window and to fix it, you simple get them out of the community.  If you don't, more of the undesirables will come, if you get rid of them, then the "building" will be pretty again.

When applied to people and businesses, it is just plain wrong and determental to the community.  The definition you posted didn't say anything about applying it to eliminate various social economic classes from a neighborhood, did it?

To answer how it can be applied to people, just look at the recent issue over 2007-1046 inolving SF per person for special uses.  Special uses are facilites like half way houses for addiction issues, assisted living facilites and rooming houses.  What is the most likely social economic class that needs and uses that type of facility?  Mack and SRG - remember they hired Alberta Hipps as a paid lobbyist - stated for the record that these types of facilites breed crime - though no proof of that exists - and so these facilities should not be in Sprinfgield.  These facilites and the people who use them become the "broken window" and the "fix" is to move them out of the neighborhood. The feeling was that if these "special uses" were gone, then the crime is gone too.  And the real median income goes up so you can tell perspective business owners how great Springfield is. So, you can also see how someone could apply the broken window theory to an income level within Springfield.  Get rid of low income residents and you can more easily "fix" the commercial development inside of the historic district. This is how Mack thinks - based on my conversations with him.

even if SPAR WERE "revolting", do you know how BORING that would be????  :)  maybe revolt is too strong of a word.  revolt is Che Gueverra-style or Bay of Pigs-style. 

strider I disagree with you about using the SF as an example of broken window applies to people. The Sf required is the same as every one else .

I live in Springfield.  I haven't seen any specific statistics on rooming or halfway houses.  I just recently moved here.  From what I have observed the rooming houses are much more of a problem than halfway houses.  The last one in my area was shut down right before I moved in.  From what my neighbors told me it was crime infested.  Constant police and drug activity.  It is being restored into a single family residence.   

QuoteHowever, SRG's management and SPAR Council seem to apply it to people.  Those they consider undesirable, whether they be people or businesses, become the broken window and to fix it, you simple get them out of the community.  If you don't, more of the undesirables will come, if you get rid of them, then the "building" will be pretty again.

Strider, I think the key word in this part of the quote is "seem". I can't speak for anyone but myself here, but I don't care if the person living next to me makes $40k less annually, or $40k more annually. Economics alone do not make someone "undesirable" to me (again, not speaking for anyone else). However, if either one of those neighbors is dumping garbage in their yard, allowing their home to crumble to the ground, or selling drugs/sex from their front porch, then I do find them undesirable. I think that is the only way "broken window theory" can be applied to people -- through these types of behaviors that are proven to attract more of the same and affect the safety of a neighborhood.

With regard to economics, it costs nothing to put garbage where it belongs. Painting a house, fixing a porch or replacing a window is a bit tougher, and I don't think anyone has figured out how to solve this. (If any posters out there have the answer to how to financially help everyone who wants to fix their house but can't, please post it!) I don't buy that selling drugs/sex is the only way to afford it, and people that do this are thus forced into this choice.

If you're looking for a local scapegoat for what are much larger social issues, then I guess SRG and SPAR are the logical choices as they have the highest public profile. But I would suggest these issues were here, and in other urban neighborhoods around the country, long before SRG and SPAR showed up. SRG and SPAR "seem" to me to be applying broken window theory to structures, streetscapes and their own lots to improve the safety and appeal of the area for everyone in it.

That's just how I see it, and you're free to disagree...

QuoteNow, deviations from the young yuppie uppermiddleclass norm are indications of a 'broken window', and must be discouraged at all costs.

This is the perception out there in the community, and doesnt reflect at all upon the excellent advice implied in the original broken window theory.

Stephen, I wholeheartedly disagree that "deviations from the young yuppie uppermiddleclass norm are indications of a 'broken window'" and that "this is the perception out there in the community." If that were the case, would Ian of Shanty have had such great things to say about SRG, SPAR or Springfield's residents?

I haven't seen or heard evidence from any of my neighbors that if someone isn't young yuppie uppermiddleclass they are undesirable or a broken window. In discussions of who has been here, who is here, or who is coming here, there is appreciation for a diverse population. I'm not sure why you seem to be experiencing something other than that.

Bottom line is, if everyone were applying broken window theory to structures, streetscapes and lots, this community would be a lot cleaner and safer.

Zoo,

I appreciate your stance on the Broken Window Theory.  I have just seen it applied to both a class of people and various businesses by some of the people involved with SPAR Council and SRG.  Perhaps I was trying to be a little too PC with the "seems"  - it wasn’t just that it seemed like, it was.  I am not looking for a local scapegoat and resent that implication.  It was and is what is happening.  Again, not all the residents or members of SPAR Council share this belief.  Many are truly trying to do the right thing and working hard to make a better community for everyone.  It is just easy to get caught up in the "fight" sometimes and do and say the wrong things.

Anytime someone says a group of people "breeds crime - if they weren't here, the crime wouldn't be either" not only are they very naive, but they are applying the broken window theory to that group of people in that they are not considering the individuals, but lumping them all together and the fix for the community is to get rid of them all.  Unlike when you just fix a window, getting rid of the group of people you may not like doesn’t really fix anything.  It makes things worse.  You say you can not see that in this community?  Hopefully it is because it simply is not how you believe, but as it has been applied to me, I have no choice but to see it.

As to Mack and SRG, he - they are just doing what they are supposed to be doing - doing their best to make money off of Springfield.  The point is, what is best for him is most likely not the best for the community as a whole in the long term.

Alta,

Just the name "rooming house" means crime infested to some.  I have heard places called crime infested with one police call in years and I know some are truely crime infested - or were as most have been closed through the years.  A properly run rooming house can be a positive unless you don't like that social economic class of people in your community at all.  Halfway houses are better in that they have better supervision.  There were legitimate issues raised in the recent discussions and most of the halfway houses have done their best to address these issues.  Eliminating the legally licensed places would do nothing but insure illegal places take their place.

Joe

QuoteNo the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge.

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.

Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

Quote from: zoo on September 25, 2008, 11:59:41 AM

QuoteNo the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge.

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.


Agree, but why is Springfields in such terrible condition while other areas are just fine?


Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

It does not take much study to understand these two bus stops (not just one) are used ONLY for drinking and drugs


SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

Why would my income mean anything in regards to getting trolly service?


SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

I don't get this? SRG is paying the city to pick up garbage all over the nieghborhood? Please explain more, I and I am sure others were not aware we had an extra garbage day....I have not seen that at my home

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

I have seen this and it is awesome, I was not aware SRG did this though-good job!


SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

This is still a HUGE failure. The street sweepers are hit or miss, you may see them twice in one week and not again for six months. There is no schedule so people can not move their cars in preperation so it is almost a waste of time. Perhaps the "schedule" is one specific area of the neighborhood but it is not happening here. I would also like to see some normal mosquito control, this also does not happen unless we request it. This is the first southern city I have lived in that does not have a standard mosquito control program

SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

House next door to mine is falling down and you can not walk down the sidewalk as the yard is so overgrown. There has been a sign up for months but nothing. The vacant lot behind me is not much better. I have not seen a lot of progress on this front, except when residents that actually care get ticketed for putting their trash cans out before 5PM

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

SRG has done a lot around the shopping cart issue. They have done WAY more than should have ever been expected of them. The failure here is with the stores (owners of carts) and JSO (who will not arrest or ticket people for theft)

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I agree that SRG has done a lot for the neighborhood. My only issue is the neighborhood (or SPAR) is not SRG's bank account either. If the neighborhood does not feel they should fund private security then that should be that. This is the only complaint I have, because I truly believe SRG does a LOT for this neighborhood

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

I agree with this too, but the personalities need to work together. I know plenty of people who have tried and been rebuffed as they were "not part of the crowd" or did not "just go along". This is a serious issue, it goes both ways.

Just my 2 cents

Quote:
"No the banners still flap in the wind on their broken arms waving over the dead plants in the median near the dead trees that line the street and the new razor wire that tops the fence near the corner of 1st and Main.  Trash still lines main street and the JTA still hasn't put a can in at the 2nd and main stop.  Saw a half eaten bag of chicken wings on the street there today along with a lovely shopping cart.  The way I see it if these little things can't be properly handled by SPAR then the big stuff is probably going to be FUBAR.   Overgrown lots and demolition by neglect, yeah can't really say things have gotten much better since the merge."

Here are some more details in the interest of all being informed...

Springfield residents (I think some who were involved with SPAR?) worked with the COJ on the neighborhood-driven design that incorporated historic lightpoles with banner arms in the updated commercial corridors.
SRG paid for, and continues to pay for, the production and installation of banners that are put on those light poles. This isn't cheap, and along with landscape maintenance, should be the responsibility of the COJ, not SRG or SPAR.


Agree, but why is Springfields in such terrible condition while other areas are just fine?

This is a City issue. The COJ is, apparently, in somewhat of a fiscal crisis with the property tax rollback vote early this year (that Gov Christ felt should be applied statewide), the expense of the Journey program, infrastructure maintenance expenses, and on, and on, and on... I don't validate or invalidate these claims, but keep in mind Springfield didn't historically have a very good city-tax payment record, and that is changing. Like you, I don't think it's too much to ask COJ that more of the increase in tax revenue from Springfield be spent in our neighborhood (and I can testify that SPAR is asking). But govt is slow and traditionally affected by self-interest.


Bus stops, including the historic ones on "new" Main and 8th and the non-historic ones on other roads, are the responsibility of the JTA. SPAR has a positive working relationship with JTA, but govt bureaucracy is SLOW! I know for a fact that SPAR issued a request to JTA to remove the stop across from Premier (right after it closed) altogether. I believe JTA's response has been to conduct a survey of all of the bus stops in the area, and assess future transportation plans' needs for the stops.

It does not take much study to understand these two bus stops (not just one) are used ONLY for drinking and drugs

Totally agree. Govt is slow. Go take pictures -- it might scare the perpetrators off, and they can be used in the study  ;).

SPAR and SRG spent months working with JTA to get a trolley (vehicles like ones that run downtown) route in Springfield, which is projected to start in Fall 2009 (because bureaucracy is slow). And btw, JTA's willingness to listen to Springfield at all began when SPAR presented them with the results of the community surveys/studies that some are so offended by. We may not like it, but data is what municipal and commercial interests use in decision making. To some extent, complaining works too, but unlike data, it isn't irrefutable.

Why would my income mean anything in regards to getting trolly service?

Because income brings retail, and retail brings city revenue, and city revenue pays for Trolley service. The chicken/egg side of this equation is that Trolley brings retail!

SRG has paid for neighborhood cleanup since 2006. That year SRG paid for pickup 6 days per week on 1st-12th Sts. In 2007, they had to cut back to 2 days/week on Thursdays on the West side and Fridays on the East side (note these are the days after COJ trash pickup b/c city workers strew garbage all over the place as part of their "process").

I don't get this? SRG is paying the city to pick up garbage all over the nieghborhood? Please explain more, I and I am sure others were not aware we had an extra garbage day....I have not seen that at my home

SRG does not pay the City for the provision of an extra city trash receptacle pick-up day. SRG pays and manages David Williams/The Ark (229-5490) and his team for the Springfield Litter Patrol. He and his team do a great job (much more diligent and prideful of the work they do than COJ workers), and I hope you have seen his green Ark truck and his team of guys usually wearing yellow vests. If you haven't seen them, look harder. If you do see them, say "Hi" and "Thanks" :)

SPAR, SRG and David Williams of the Ark have also worked with the Sheriff's office to get an inmate pickup crew to come and do cleanup of big piles on Mondays.

I have seen this and it is awesome, I was not aware SRG did this though-good job!


SPAR has worked with COJ to get semi-regular visits from street-sweeping crews. I'm sure some don't like street-sweeping, but imho it does make the community seem better maintained.

This is still a HUGE failure. The street sweepers are hit or miss, you may see them twice in one week and not again for six months. There is no schedule so people can not move their cars in preperation so it is almost a waste of time. Perhaps the "schedule" is one specific area of the neighborhood but it is not happening here. I would also like to see some normal mosquito control, this also does not happen unless we request it. This is the first southern city I have lived in that does not have a standard mosquito control program

I somewhat agree on this one, as well. The street-sweeping program is not consistent and mosquito program would be appreciated. But I disagree that some street-sweeping is no better than no street-sweeping. Conversations have been had b/w SPAR and some Neighborhoods dept workers regarding scheduling regular street-sweeping. At this time, I'm guessing 3 things are preventing this from happening:
1. COJ budgets required to do it consistently
2. The speed of govt
3. The hell some residents would raise about having to move their cars from one side of a street to the other or be ticketed. Without the ticketing/forced-moving component, regular street-sweeping won't be any more effective than some street-sweeping.


SPAR has been in contact with property owners who are allowing their properties to be demolished by neglect, but cannot legally force them to do anything. Only COJ code enforcement can attempt to force negligent property owners to do something, and they are. I think this is why some renovation is still being done in these very tight economic conditions. This applies to overgrown lots, as well.

House next door to mine is falling down and you can not walk down the sidewalk as the yard is so overgrown. There has been a sign up for months but nothing. The vacant lot behind me is not much better. I have not seen a lot of progress on this front, except when residents that actually care get ticketed for putting their trash cans out before 5PM

It is a bummer that you are not seeing it working right by you. But this is a speed of govt issue -- they have to go through all of the processes required by City law to ensure the owners have had more than enough opportunity and ability to comply. I'd bet SPAR has contacted the owner of the properties, as they have a letter drive to negligent owners once/year (funding and personnel resources probably prohibit greater frequency -- maybe building a relationship with SPAR through volunteering with this would suit your interests?) Or, if you haven't already, you can always try to work it out with the owners yourself.

Shopping carts are the responsibility of the stores that offer them for customer use. In SRG's early days in the neighborhood, they paid for pickup and disposal of thousands of carts. SPAR is building relationships with Winn-Dixie and other local commercial entities regarding this and other issues.

SRG has done a lot around the shopping cart issue. They have done WAY more than should have ever been expected of them. The failure here is with the stores (owners of carts) and JSO (who will not arrest or ticket people for theft)

I think some responsibilities have been assigned to SPAR that should not be (why isn't every resident/owner responsible for THEIR OWN homes, lots, trash, etc?), and SRG has improved the community through significant non-builder expenses. SRG is not Springfield's bank account, and I am grateful that a developer is willing to spend these dollars for the benefit of the ENTIRE community (although I've no doubt cleanliness has a positive sales affect, as well). To the extent they can, I believe SPAR, SRG, SAMBA, SIAWC, SACARC, Mommies Group, Wine Society and all of the other Springfield organizations (I didn't miss any intentionally) are "being the change they want to see", and in many cases pressuring municipal agencies to step in where it's COJ responsibility.

I agree that SRG has done a lot for the neighborhood. My only issue is the neighborhood (or SPAR) is not SRG's bank account either. If the neighborhood does not feel they should fund private security then that should be that. This is the only complaint I have, because I truly believe SRG does a LOT for this neighborhood

SRG has contributed $50,000 to SPAR this year alone, has put more than $100,000 (not including personnel time) into SPAR's security fund, has paid more than $150,000 for the Litter Patrol, helped to fund the LISC/MetroEdge study with other area developers that led to a partnership with LISC and THEIR contribution of $50,000 to SPAR, gave $10,000 for the Klutho Park fountain restoration, has consistently sponsored (financially) various community organizations' events, and went way on a limb to build 4 over-the-top (cost-wise) spec homes for the Symphony Showhouse to show non-Springfielders who would venture into the community that it had changed for the better (don't know what the build cost was, but the PR cost for that event exceeded $25,000, which of course helped SRG, too). This is only a glimpse at SRG's financial expenses on behalf of THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

SPAR and SRG also researched, went to Tallahassee and pushed the Community Contribution Tax Credit program through council so SPAR could more easily attract charitable donations from private corporate and foundation donors in and near Springfield (let's get some donations from some of the companies downtown!)

Funds raised through this program HAVE to go to SPAR's 3 approved projects, which include: Residential Safety & Security, Commercial Corridor Revitalization, and Hogan's Creek Parks Improvements. BUT... money has to be donated (by outside private donors, we hope), before SPAR can start spending it. SPAR needs help fundraising, and maybe volunteering in this effort would resonate with some residents?

SRG does not, and I think it can not, use SPAR funds per laws governing 501(c)3s. Imho, if all SRG cared about was the realization of business profit in Springfield, it's employees and principals would be living somewhere cleaner, safer, and certainly not as critical of more than $1/2 million dollars worth of community investment.

I don't want to offend -- and I tried like hell to figure out a way to put this without sounding righteous -- but everyone with any level of interest in Springfield should do less "vocalizing the change we want to see" and more "being the change we want to see," and this community will only get better.

I agree with this too, but the personalities need to work together. I know plenty of people who have tried and been rebuffed as they were "not part of the crowd" or did not "just go along". This is a serious issue, it goes both ways.

At the risk of sounding all Cum-by-ya (and with shame at having to quote any politician), build bridges people, not walls!

Stephen, seems "perception is reality" really applies here. If a wall is perceived, then there is a wall. :(

I don't speak for SPAR, but I would guess that anyone wanting to "scale" some perceived wall would be welcomed as a volunteer with negligent property owner letter drives, or the Comm Cont Tax Credit program fundraising drive (which should get revved up soon). May not seem like the most exciting way to make a difference, but it would help!

Cum-by-ya;)

Quote from: stephendare on September 25, 2008, 03:36:15 PM
zoo.

the organization needs a new direction.

It just does.

WOW!!!  :o :o I believe that is the weakest argument I've ever read from you!!! You are usually so eloquent with big words I need to look up in a dictionary to understand. All you come back with is that?? I guess this debate is over... Zoo-Winner   Stephen- Loser

Just a quick note here:  While I'm sure the avid supporters of SPAR Council and SRG truly believe all that money donated to SPAR Council by SRG and it's principles was just because they are concerned, nice people.  It couldn't possibly have anything to do with having their way in Springfield, controling a community organization or influencing the city and other organizations like LISC.  And this influence they gain wouldn't just be to help further their own goals - mostly a community that is developed to their standards and desires, regarless of what the majority in the community may want.  Of course some of what they want coincides with what is good for the community, but rarely will it be what is best for the entire community in the long term.  What has been posted in earlier posts about 50K donated to SPAR Council by a developer - if SRG had given that to a city council person, a lynch mob would be forming even as we speak.  Having a developer give money when it is not forced to and being that involved in the politics of the community should be raising red flags, not getting you all fuzzy eyed and speaking out saying how great they are.  Free help is seldom free.  This great help of SRG's is about as far from free as you can get. This thread is about the issues with SPAR Council.  This is but one of them, though perhaps the biggest one.   Perhaps to resolve these issues and put an end to discussions like this, all they have to do is rename the organization - SRG Council might fit.

"SRG does not, and I think it can not, use SPAR funds per laws governing 501(c)3s. Imho, if all SRG cared about was the realization of business profit in Springfield, it's employees and principals would be living somewhere cleaner, safer, and certainly not as critical of more than $1/2 million dollars worth of community investment. "

Zoo, this makes it sound like Springfield is a filthy, crime ridden, worthless place to live. Do you live in Springfield? Do you work for SRG?

I am not sure if anyone could downplay what SRG has done for the neighborhood. As I myself have posted SRG has done a LOT.

The thing here is not what SRG has or has not done for the neighborhood; it is the fact that NO individual or builder, or business should be deciding the future of the neighborhood. The neighborhood should be deciding this. While many separate groups, individuals, and or businesses have invested time and money in the neighborhood, not one should be allowed anymore persuasion or 'rights" then the other. This is a group effort, and as such everyone’s options should be taken into account. Everyone should get a say in the future of our neighborhood, how money and time is spent within our neighborhood organization. If one is allowed to talk at meetings all should be allowed, or if the rules state no one talks but board members then only board members talk. It is not a “gift” for praise if it is really a purchase of power.

Unless you feel otherwise?

I also think that one of the discussions going on right now at the SPAR forum is on track with this discussion:

My latest post from that forum:

Section 3. NUMBER OF DIRECTORS. The Board shall have between 10 and 15 Directors.

Up to four positions will be available to allow the Board to appoint members who have specific
skills useful to the community or who may not have been available at the time of the election.

At least 2/3 of the Board members must be residents of Springfield Historic District.

Section 4. TERMS AND ELECTION OF DIRECTORS. The membership shall elect Directors
at the annual meeting. A Director shall serve a term of three years.

To ensure experienced leadership, approximately one-third of the Directorships shall be
elected or appointed in alternate years.

All Directors will be limited to 2 consecutive terms, or no more than 6 consecutive years.

An appointed member may serve a three-year term and be reappointed by the Board or stand
for election for an additional term.


The above is from the SPAR Council "about us" link to the by-laws dated as revised June 2008.
The way this is written now, they may never have to hold elections.
The only reason I can think of to have written the by-laws this way
is to insure the board's make-up is favorable to a special interest group - like SRG.

That's nice, but.....

Also from the By-laws dated as revised June 2008:

ARTICLE 8 - NOMINATION PROCESS
Section 1. BOARD ASSESSMENT. To ensure the Board has a diversity of skills and
representation, the Governance Committee is responsible for recruiting, screening and interviewing candidates before nominating a slate of candidates at the annual membership meeting.
Prior to recommending candidates, the Governance Committee is responsible for assessing
the Corporation’s expertise and talents to determine gaps in skills and other important representation such as gender, residency, ethnicity, etc. In addition, the Committee will review the attendance of current Board members to consider renewing their terms once they have expired.
Based on the interview and supplemental information requested of the candidate, the
committee will decide whether the candidate will be nominated. Candidates can only be nominated at the annual membership meeting once they have been interviewed and voted by the Governance Committee and the Board. There will be no nominations accepted from the floor.


So, not only does this mesh very nicely with the idea of only appointing board members, it also puts a tremendous amount of influence in the hands of a few  on the committee.  It specifically allows the committee to make sure the only persons nominated and on the ballot in any way are to their liking - whether it is race, gender or who they work for.  Of course, you have to have an election at all for this to matter much.  

In addition,  nowhere in the above nor anywhere else in the by-laws (revised June 2008) is anything that  gives the Governance Committee the authority to not hold elections  if they decide not too.  It states they are in charge of the nomination process and holding the elections, which is bad enough, but the by-laws also states that there should be an election of about 1/3 of the board members.

Of course, as they do not have to hold elections at all anymore, I don’t see why Meeks just didn’t come out and say that instead of using a reason that is against the by-laws.   Perhaps he needs to read the by-laws before making those kinds of statements? By and by, the Governance Committee does not have the authority to appoint board members as he implies in his statement either!

Quote from: movedsouth on September 26, 2008, 03:42:33 PM
Today's SPAR weekly update includes a clarification by Jack Meeks:

Quote
The revised bylaws create a  Governance Committee to determine if the board has a need for specialized skills and experience and to appoint or arrange for elections of individuals to fill vacant positions. The bylaws provide for 10-15 director positions. Because there are currently 12 board members, a determination was made by the Governance Committee that no additional directors would need to be elected at the annual meeting this year."

This is outrageous! I am sorry but SPAR pulled this same stuff last year. They appointed board members two months in advance of the election, taking away the ability of the members to vote, again this year appointing board member (s?) right before an election and then stating they won't hold elections at all. We have had several in the neighborhood wanting to throw their hat in the ring and now they will be silenced...why? There is a lot of concerns in the neighborhood and now we will not even be able to effect the change that many board members posted here in response to those concerns, we SHOULD make if we felt so strongly.

This is a joke.


BTW, June 2008? I never saw anything about this in meeting minutes, of course that is about the time they stopped sending them.

You're right, they did slip one in right before the last election and they've done it again...and they're slowing taking away any options for the members. And people wonder why we're upset...

Someone might just check and insure that a vote by the membership ratified this latest revision of the by-laws as that is normally the only way it can be done.  Of course with this board.....

Well I can tell you that I've not heard anything to that effect....

me either... but hey they are working FOR us, the members and obviously know what is better for us no?

Oh yeah, I forgot...they know what's better for us and what we want without needing our input...they just need our money

Quote from: stephendare on September 25, 2008, 06:25:28 PM

pretty compelling post there, sox.

You might have read the previous posts.  I dunno.  Its good to hear that you have the habit of looking up words that you dont understand though!

tell me, do they tend to be words over a certain number of syllables or just a particular branch of education?

Anyways, its refreshing that I don't have to dumb the writing down.

As long as there are dictionaries, I suppose we will all get along just fine.

and incidentally, Zoo and I are not arguing.  I expressed my opinion after she posted which kind of activities would be welcomed by the SPAR board on the part of its critics.

Apples and oranges.  not an argument.

Dude, my post was not meant to be a dig at you. I guess it was more of a compliment, if only in my apparently small mind..I found it humorous after the both of you having such long and pointful posts, for you to come back with that. Kinda like "It just does cause I said so!"  that's all..

Typical gestapo tatics being used on neighbors trying to voice displeasure at SPAR picking their own board members again, and not having elections.. it is sad, very, very, very, sad.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 26, 2008, 07:47:37 PM
Typical gestapo tatics being used on neighbors trying to voice displeasure at SPAR picking their own board members again, and not having elections.. it is sad, very, very, very, sad.

It'll be even sadder when the majority of the members don't renew this time around. Who will they be representing when their membership consists of the board and their spouses???

They keep changing the rules to meet the wants of the select few and to hell with the membership. It has me so angry, that I'm one of those who will most likely NOT renew my membership, for they continue to demonstrate that they could care less about the members, other than our money.

Quote from: soxfan on September 27, 2008, 08:18:32 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 26, 2008, 07:47:37 PM
Typical gestapo tatics being used on neighbors trying to voice displeasure at SPAR picking their own board members again, and not having elections.. it is sad, very, very, very, sad.

It'll be even sadder when the majority of the members don't renew this time around. Who will they be representing when their membership consists of the board and their spouses???

That would be the same people they are representing now (themselves).

Who decided that yet again right before the election time to appoint another board member, and then decide we won’t have elections. We need a SPAR revolt, this proves it.

I challenge the board members who have been posting here; especially the one's who have been calling us all whiners and complainers to please justify this. To please explain why you tell us to get involved and volunteer, then take away any opportunity to do so? With a lot of neighbors complaining, and then a lot of talent stating they would like to run for the board, this is just stupid.

Who in the heck does SPAR think they are? This is not a kingdom, where you can just make decisions and everyone has to go along. SPAR can not exist if the neighborhood is divided. SPAR can not exist with only a couple of backers. SPAR can not function with out the neighborhood, and with out the neighborhood SPAR loses all credibility with the city.

Everyone here can see some neighbors posting they have concerns, but what you don't see are the majority in the neighborhood who are not members and are not involved with SPAR because they feel SPAR does not and does not want to, represent them. I talk to these people all day, they live in homes here all around us and are ignored. Some are new renters, some are old renters, some are new home owners, some have owned their homes since the 60's. These people are completely ignored, SPAR is not trying to represent them, doesn’t even reach out to them. Unless you make over 45K/year they don't want to even know about you, don't really want you to respond to their surveys (you bring the average down), would PREFER you move. God forbid one of YOU decide to run for a board position, and then they would have to acknowledge you are here.

Sorry for the passionate rant, but this is so frustrating. Even SPAR members are not listened to, much less Springfield residents.

I find it despicable and under-handed, at best...appointing people to the board, when an election would be just weeks away. This is exactly why people are saying the SPAR and SRG are one of the same, and that they don't give a damn about the membership...not as long as they have SRG to give donations...so I'm sure they won't miss my membership renewal fee

In reviewing the by-laws, revised june 2008, the board has control of the revising the by-laws as well, so they have sucessfully created a closed loop system of government.  There is no longer any need for elections, there is no longer any need for input from the membership and soon, there may not be much need for most of the board members.  SPAR Council can be very quickly made into a virtual dictatorship. If it isn't already.

Yes, a "revolt" seems like a good idea.  Perhaps instead of continuing to discuss an organization that is no longer in the community's control, we should be discussing a new organization and take back the control through the new organization.

They're true...they've changed the bylaws to meet their own needs, thwarting any upcoming elections. They've placed into positions, the people they want.

I have followed this thread since the beginning.  I do not live in Springfield, and do not have more than a genuine interest in seeing that area revamped.  I have no grudge with SPAR nor anyone else.  But as a uninvested, disinterested observer I would say that the membership has been had by the leadership of SPAR.  You are being used.  Many home owners associations in the suberbs operate the same way... a select few hold sway over the poor unwashed masses knowing that they alone know what is best for the community.  Oh they say they want your input... but in the end they will do as they please...

Just my humble opinion... :)

Well, that's about what we've got here...so you've pretty much gotten the picture

So how do we go about starting a new organization that inlcudes EVERYONE?

not sure, but it could be something to look into

We'd need a name, a mission & a meeting place.  Not necessarily in that order.  I say, let's meet over a mocha frap & discuss it.

that's what I was thinking

mmmmmm.... Three Layers and a black and white cake who is in???!!!!

Of course we're in!  And not just for the cake!  Name the date and time.  We also need to bring in as many others as possible.  Starting a new organization is not as hard as it sounds.  I have ideas....

I'm in.

Black and white...that's my favorite...I'm in!

hi, i like the new org idea. can someone start a new thread for it?

Jmb, can you do this for us? And leave a forwarding address?

Anyone can start a new thread...for now though...I suggest we leave it here as we can always separate the threads.

I posted this on JaxOutLoud and I know I am not suppose to cross post so please give the newbie a break.

I think it is time for the residents of Springfield to call for a vote of confidence on the current board members.
I have to admit I have no understanding of Roberts Rules and reading Florida Statutes makes my head hurt so I won’t pretend to understand, but as a laymen, I can’t believe that there are no safeguards in place (laws and rules)to prevent what is taking place with the current board.
I have learned over time that perception can be more damaging then the truth. Even if SPAR thinks everything is alright in the neighborhood and finds it easier to declare that some of us are complainers and hooligans just amazes me, instead of saying wow maybe there really is a problem and then work on the issues presented to them.
The latest announcement of no elections does nothing more than fuel the perceptions that the board is tainted. So maybe it is time to resurrect HSCC

Quotethat perception can be more damaging then the truth.

Bingo!

It's okay to cross post, I've had links to here and other forums.

Anyway, I feel that's an excellent idea you have, and would fully support a vote of confidence and the possibility of either resurrecting HSCC or simply begin a new neighborhood organization. What's happening with SPAR is a serious problem, that they're flat out ignoring.

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 28, 2008, 11:04:10 AM
What's happening with SPAR is a serious problem, that they're flat out ignoring.

Let's set aside for a moment the recent bylaws change and the perception that the board does not listen to you.
What would be your ideal strategic plan for 2009 ?
What should be the top priorities for SPAR to work on ?
How would you go about achieving your target goals ?
Let's assume your plan includes staff for an office or any other types of expenses, how would you fund them ?
How would you assure you have the proper talent on the board to achieve your mission ?
How would you get the input of the full community (about 6000-12000 people) rather than the 100-300 SPAR members ?

Once the community is convinced that an alternate plan is better than the current plan of SPAR, change will happen.

It is generally easier to criticize what is being done than to come up with a way to do it better. I found some interesting reading at the link below and quoting part of it.
http://www.realinnovation.com/content/c071112a.asp

QuoteCriticize

Criticize all new ideas. Point out some of the weaknesses and flaws that will prevent an idea’s success. The more experienced a leader, the easier it is for that leader to find fault with other people’s ideas. Looking askance at the "new" is anything but new:

    * Decca Records turned down the Beatles
    * IBM rejected the photocopying idea that launched Xerox
    * DEC turned down the spreadsheet
    * Various major publishers turned down the first Harry Potter novel

The same thing happens in all types of businesses. New ideas tend to be partly-formed so it is easy to reject them as "bad." New ideas often diverge from the narrow focus previously established and are, thus, easily discarded. Every time a new idea is criticized, the person with the idea is disinclined to waste further time presenting more suggestions. Criticizing sends a message that new ideas are not welcome and that anyone who volunteers them is risking criticism or ridicule.

Quote from: AlexS on September 28, 2008, 11:42:15 AM

Quote from: jbm32206 on September 28, 2008, 11:04:10 AM
What's happening with SPAR is a serious problem, that they're flat out ignoring.

Let's set aside for a moment the recent bylaws change and the perception that the board does not listen to you.
What would be your ideal strategic plan for 2009 ?
What should be the top priorities for SPAR to work on ?
How would you go about achieving your target goals ?
Let's assume your plan includes staff for an office or any other types of expenses, how would you fund them ?
How would you assure you have the proper talent on the board to achieve your mission ?
How would you get the input of the full community (about 6000-12000 people) rather than the 100-300 SPAR members ?

Once the community is convinced that an alternate plan is better than the current plan of SPAR, change will happen.

It is generally easier to criticize what is being done than to come up with a way to do it better. I found some interesting reading at the link below and quoting part of it.
http://www.realinnovation.com/content/c071112a.asp

QuoteCriticize

Criticize all new ideas. Point out some of the weaknesses and flaws that will prevent an idea’s success. The more experienced a leader, the easier it is for that leader to find fault with other people’s ideas. Looking askance at the "new" is anything but new:

    * Decca Records turned down the Beatles
    * IBM rejected the photocopying idea that launched Xerox
    * DEC turned down the spreadsheet
    * Various major publishers turned down the first Harry Potter novel

The same thing happens in all types of businesses. New ideas tend to be partly-formed so it is easy to reject them as "bad." New ideas often diverge from the narrow focus previously established and are, thus, easily discarded. Every time a new idea is criticized, the person with the idea is disinclined to waste further time presenting more suggestions. Criticizing sends a message that new ideas are not welcome and that anyone who volunteers them is risking criticism or ridicule.

Well since the idea of creating a new organization just came up, and several people have voiced they would like to participate, and it has only been a couple of hours....I would think any group willing to look into this would need to have a little time to discuss, and plan this out. I can't imagine a plan being developed over night, I mean after all SPAR has had years to plan and reach their goal of cutting out the members.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 12:06:33 PM
Well since the idea of creating a new organization just came up, and several people have voiced they would like to participate, and it has only been a couple of hours....I would think any group willing to look into this would need to have a little time to discuss, and plan this out. I can't imagine a plan being developed over night, I mean after all SPAR has had years to plan and reach their goal of cutting out the members.

Since the concept of criticizing SPAR isn't a particularly new one (not just a few hours) I would have thought some plans to exist by this point.
Constructive criticism usually works best. Not only say what you don't like, but also suggest on how to do it better.
I have heard many complain that SPAR isn't listening, but what is there to listen to, if no alternative ideas are presented.
In all fairness I would also like to point out that some people did present constructive ideas which I am thankful for and bringing to the full board.
I am all for making things better. I would not discard the idea of improving the existing SPAR organization rather than creating a new one just yet.

I actually agree with you.

Several points have ben brough up in the past:

more preservation, by working with the city to enforce liens on properties being demolished by neglect

more financial transparency, including understanding how the crime funds are used (not just to pay off duty JSO officers, but how the work is assigned, where they work, and why) and if the neighborhood is getting it's monies worth

More communication with transparency (which you in particular AlexS have made great strides in!)- for instance the bylaws were changed and harldy anyone new about it, elections called off and obviously even some board members did not know- or how votes are decided (which may be a mute point if the membership is no longer allowed to vote council in). Can votes not be displayed because people are just too lazy to write a paragraph on why they voted a certain way? Or is that they really don't want members to know how they voted?

More inlcusion of the entire demographics (criminals excluded) of the neighborhood. renters and low to moderate income residents are almost completely left out.

More business participation-even if it is businesses SPAR may not "like" they are here so let's work with them and see if change can be wrought-as it is obvious ignoring or out right war is not working

where is multifamily, moderate income, or workforce housing on the plan? I may have missed somthing but all I have seen is an attempt to almost squash this development. If we culd get decent, affordable housing for renters we could see some of the "problem" properties go away- hookers and drug dealers do not want to live in a building of law abiding families and workers.

let the neighborhood be more involved. If talking at board meetings is not allowed-it isn;t allowed for ANYONE. Find a way to get more input from the neighborhood residents, some of who gave up on going to meetings long ago. If money is spent on banners, did the residents decide this? was there something else this money could have been spent on such as landscaping, garbage cans, fixing up some of the bus benches? ( I like the banners but some things go a lot further to making the neighborhood look nicer then broken banners)

give the board back to the residents, let them vote on issues, candidates, and appointments.

This is off the top of my head, I am sure I could come up with some ideas given a bit of time...but this has all been communicated to SPAR over the years.

Quote from: AlexS on September 28, 2008, 12:22:26 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 12:06:33 PM
Well since the idea of creating a new organization just came up, and several people have voiced they would like to participate, and it has only been a couple of hours....I would think any group willing to look into this would need to have a little time to discuss, and plan this out. I can't imagine a plan being developed over night, I mean after all SPAR has had years to plan and reach their goal of cutting out the members.

Since the concept of criticizing SPAR isn't a particularly new one (not just a few hours) I would have thought some plans to exist by this point.
Constructive criticism usually works best. Not only say what you don't like, but also suggest on how to do it better.
I have heard many complain that SPAR isn't listening, but what is there to listen to, if no alternative ideas are presented.
In all fairness I would also like to point out that some people did present constructive ideas which I am thankful for and bringing to the full board.
I am all for making things better. I would not discard the idea of improving the existing SPAR organization rather than creating a new one just yet.

I would also rather revamp SPAR, but you tell me how we're going to do that with those set into permanent positions? These are the ones that are changing the bylaws and appointing those whom they wish, instead of opening up the positions for others to apply for, let alone allowing the members to vote for.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 12:37:01 PM
I actually agree with you.

Several points have ben brough up in the past:

more preservation, by working with the city to enforce liens on properties being demolished by neglect

more financial transparency, including understanding how the crime funds are used (not just to pay off duty JSO officers, but how the work is assigned, where they work, and why) and if the neighborhood is getting it's monies worth

More communication with transparency (which you in particular AlexS have made great strides in!)- for instance the bylaws were changed and harldy anyone new about it, elections called off and obviously even some board members did not know- or how votes are decided (which may be a mute point if the membership is no longer allowed to vote council in). Can votes not be displayed because people are just too lazy to write a paragraph on why they voted a certain way? Or is that they really don't want members to know how they voted?

More inlcusion of the entire demographics (criminals excluded) of the neighborhood. renters and low to moderate income residents are almost completely left out.

More business participation-even if it is businesses SPAR may not "like" they are here so let's work with them and see if change can be wrought-as it is obvious ignoring or out right war is not working

where is multifamily, moderate income, or workforce housing on the plan? I may have missed somthing but all I have seen is an attempt to almost squash this development. If we culd get decent, affordable housing for renters we could see some of the "problem" properties go away- hookers and drug dealers do not want to live in a building of law abiding families and workers.

let the neighborhood be more involved. If talking at board meetings is not allowed-it isn;t allowed for ANYONE. Find a way to get more input from the neighborhood residents, some of who gave up on going to meetings long ago. If money is spent on banners, did the residents decide this? was there something else this money could have been spent on such as landscaping, garbage cans, fixing up some of the bus benches? ( I like the banners but some things go a lot further to making the neighborhood look nicer then broken banners)

give the board back to the residents, let them vote on issues, candidates, and appointments.

This is off the top of my head, I am sure I could come up with some ideas given a bit of time...but this has all been communicated to SPAR over the years.

Exactly!

No AlexS, let’s not, see this is typical, answer question with more question delivered in such a way as to make the original questioner seem unknowledgeable of what’s really going on. Of course it is easier to ask question then providing answers.
Has SPAR answered the question of the perceived voting irregularly last year?
Have they provided any answers to why they changed the by-laws?
Have they provided a reason for appointing someone and canceling an election? 
Who gave the executive director the power to appoint anyone? The most glaring example the SHADCO appointment. Sure anyone can nominate someone, but to have the first person nominated then, seconded, then accepted all in one fluid moment, is wrong. I bet no one will advise the SHADCO members of this, so we will just show up and have a new chairperson.
AlexS,  I assume some of your questions will be raised and need to be dealt with and that most of us have the fortitude to take on SPAR. So now we have to find out if some of us are up to this daunting task.

Uptown girl, you've got a good list started, and I look forward to working on the details with you.

Deportman and JBM, you both have made very good points.

AlexS - you need to go back and try again.  Read everyone's posts on all the forums and then come back and explain how trying to fix an organization that no longer represents this community at all nor wants any input from the community is going to help any of us.  How, and this is a biggy, can we even begin with no say in the organization at all?

I marked my responses in orange. I have answered your questions, so will you answer mine now ?

Quote from: deportman on September 28, 2008, 12:54:45 PM
No AlexS, let’s not, see this is typical, answer question with more question delivered in such a way as to make the original questioner seem unknowledgeable of what’s really going on. Of course it is easier to ask question then providing answers.
If people want me to change things (I am a board member listening after all) then I need to know what members want changed. That is why I am asking questions and for no other reason. I need to understand what is asked of me.

Has SPAR answered the question of the perceived voting irregularly last year?
Yes, over and over. Those asking the question just did not like the answer. At some point this needs to be put to rest as the outcome will not change any more. It does not serve anyone to bring this up over and over again.

Have they provided any answers to why they changed the by-laws?
I have explained that on the SPAR board and probably here also. It was mostly based on a LISC consultant reviewing our bylaws and suggesting changes needed to grow as an organization. Although I don't agree on how it was done.
Have they provided a reason for appointing someone and canceling an election?
Appointing Jack Meeks was allowed by the bylaws and a unanimous decision. I think he is a valuable addition to the board. Canceling the election I don't agree with and am still challenging (see my post on the SPAR board).

Who gave the executive director the power to appoint anyone? The most glaring example the SHADCO appointment. Sure anyone can nominate someone, but to have the first person nominated then, seconded, then accepted all in one fluid moment, is wrong. I bet no one will advise the SHADCO members of this, so we will just show up and have a new chairperson.
Louise was not acting as SPAR Executive Director at that meeting as far as I know. She was acting as Shadco member. Second, the position was the one of vice chair and not chair.  Third, all that happened was nominate someone, second the nomination and the person accepting the nomination. No vote has taken place yet. That will be next month.

Yes, you're a board member and the only one listening, and even when you have taken our suggestions, they've been voted down or not even given the respect of someone seconding them. That makes me feel confident that SPAR is listening.

As for last years election...I personally contacted both the president, vice president with my concerns, and only the VP responded and we had a good chat, but nothing was resolved. In fact, he agreed with my suggestion to have a committee to oversee the elections...but alas, no elections, no need for any further response.

Clear and simple, the bylaw changes should have gone before the membership, otherwise, they're merely overseeing themselves, and that's wrong.

It was my understanding that the position of which DeSpain has was more or less a position that would have no voting power....that it's more or less a nicety since she's served SPAR for so long.

AlexS - you know that I have answered your questions on the SPAR Council forum, so I won't again here.  You have also PM'd me and I have not revealed anything from a PM to me nor will I.  I tell you this in public to remind you that I am showing you respect and still intend to.  That said:

You need to start answering some questions yourself.  Not generic answers, but more details.  Post or send us to the links in the LISC info that says the community organization board of directors shall remove the voting rights from the membership, close themselves off from any real input from the community and allow themselves to be the only voice they themselves listen too.   Or did the LISC suggest getting board members with specific talents and backgrounds and this is the response SPAR Council had to that request? 

Your comments about bringing up the past voting issues as being non-productive are very true.  The SPAR Council board did indeed address this issue and came up with a permanent solution.  No more elections required so no more chance of any irregularities in the election process. 

Yes, Jack Meeks was a great addition to the Board.  I do have to ask, who or which special interest group is he great for?  It certainly was not the community at large when he, as the only committee member, decided not to have elections and did so when it is not legal for him to do so according to the by-laws he is supposed to uphold.

Finally, we come to you listening to us.  From your most recent posts, I would like to ask: who is it you are listening to?  Because it doesn't seem like it is the people posting the facts on this and other forums.  It does seem like you are trying too hard to play the middle here and you will find yourself out in the cold if you are not careful. If you truly take some of what we are saying to the board to try to get changes, you will be ridiculed by them, if you do not, you will lose our trust.  It will come down to being your decision.  Simply chose what is best for you, I for one will not hold anything against you.

Undone:

PROBLEM ONE: The Class War

LISC has publications that deal with the negative effects of gentrification on a neighborhood. Perhaps that should be addressed. Say, let's get a PLAN to deal with different income levels including protecting our affordable housing and respecting those businesses deemed "less desirable". 

PROBLEM TWO: Let them eat cake.

Half of the time, the "few" don't even know how presumptuous they appear and how insulting it is to the unwashed masses.

Have an election for goodness sake, even if it is "less efficient" it is more respectful.


PROBLEM THREE: keeping one's pants on

A community organization NEEDS to be VERY cautious about accepting "help" from developers. Why is this a difficult concept to understand? Who gets a free lunch?  Either set limits to donations or make it clear what the donors are getting in return.  The perception of a corruption is pretty darn strong here.

PROBLEM FOUR:  preservation vs. revitalization

Understand that these two noble goals are often at odds with one another.  SPAR should ALWAYS place preservation before revitalization.  Once lost, is lost forever.

My responses in orange.

Quote from: strider on September 28, 2008, 02:14:17 PM
You need to start answering some questions yourself.  Not generic answers, but more details.  Post or send us to the links in the LISC info that says the community organization board of directors shall remove the voting rights from the membership, close themselves off from any real input from the community and allow themselves to be the only voice they themselves listen too.   Or did the LISC suggest getting board members with specific talents and backgrounds and this is the response SPAR Council had to that request? 
LISC suggested getting board members with specific talents and backgrounds. They also suggested the Board Member Skills Matrix.

Your comments about bringing up the past voting issues as being non-productive are very true.  The SPAR Council board did indeed address this issue and came up with a permanent solution.  No more elections required so no more chance of any irregularities in the election process.
I think the best way may be to come up with specific suggestions of bylaws amendments. I could then make a motion to bring it up for a vote. Ideally we would have large community attendance during this board meeting. The suggestions should mention Article x, section y, paragraph z which currently read '...' should be amended to '...'. Let's work together on change rather than against each other.

Yes, Jack Meeks was a great addition to the Board.  I do have to ask, who or which special interest group is he great for?  It certainly was not the community at large when he, as the only committee member, decided not to have elections and did so when it is not legal for him to do so according to the by-laws he is supposed to uphold.
In hindsight it may not have been the best decision to appoint him one month before elections. At the time there was no vacancy (10-15 board members required, had 14) but yet we appointed him. At time of election only 12 board members are expected and yet he chooses not to have elections. I agree, this does not look good.

Finally, we come to you listening to us.  From your most recent posts, I would like to ask: who is it you are listening to?  Because it doesn't seem like it is the people posting the facts on this and other forums.  It does seem like you are trying too hard to play the middle here and you will find yourself out in the cold if you are not careful. If you truly take some of what we are saying to the board to try to get changes, you will be ridiculed by them, if you do not, you will lose our trust.  It will come down to being your decision.  Simply chose what is best for you, I for one will not hold anything against you.
I try and listen to all parties and form my own opinion. Must be the Libra in me which tries to stand in the middle and balance things out.

My big fear is that also the 10-15 people which are vocal and outspoken here on the forum (including myself) may not be representative of the community (Historic Springfield) opinion at large. I personally would like to see more of a grassroots effort to find out what the community really wants. Considering there are about 70 or so city blocks, it should be possible for one person to cover 1 block and talk to everyone there. So 70 volunteers would be needed or 35 if each person covers 2 blocks.

I have posted a survey on the SPAR board which I wanted to do some time ago.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/t/stremitz/docs/Survey_6412676_2132008.pdf
I was even willing to pay for it on my own. People with internet access could participate online, people without could fill out the survey in writing and the volunteers type them in. I was utilizing surveymonkey.com. In retrospect the focus of the survey may have been too narrow. On the other hand you don't want too many questions, otherwise no one fills them out. Coming up with good questions to ask would be a start.

Based on the first survey there could be follow up efforts for specific groups (or gather group membership during the initial survey). Then you could break down what home owners, renters, business owners, developers and other groups want. Each group should be represented in meetings to come up with a plan.

Once the plan is complete, it needs to be broken down into actionable items to accomplish the mission. It may be challenging to gather enough volunteers who are willing to put in the time. I recall the Dog Walkers efforts where many would be involved in discussions but few would attend the actual walks due to numerous excuses (not to detract from topic here, just using as example as I was personally involved). Most just wanted someone else to solve the issues for them. I tell you what I want and you fix it, right ?

AlexS: The real truth is that the majority of the residents in Springfield do not have a clue as to what is going on.  No one has been there in years who was willing to get the real word out there.  Not everyone is on the forum nor do they want to be. So, yes, going door to door with the information may be the only way to get a true read on the real opinion and needs of the residents.  If we are going to do that, then I would suggest also asking if they want a new organization as even I am concerned that otherwise it would be time poorly spent if we can not successfully bring about change to the current SPAR Council.

In response to your answers - so LISC is making sensible suggestions and the current SPAR Council board is going way beyond them to insure total control of what  is going to happen between SPAR Council and LISC.  Gee, do you think someone sees some money to be made with the LISC involvement?

Before we go in front of the board with suggested changes, how do we find out if more than 1/2 of the board members would be willing to make those changes?  My gut tells me that most want it the way it is and nothing is going to change because we simply ask them.

I'm a Libra too, but when I get smacked across the face, the only way to get the balance back is to smack back.  I do feel for ya buddy, you are in a bad position here.

That's because most people are not involved and could care less

Quote from: strider on September 28, 2008, 05:23:13 PM
Before we go in front of the board with suggested changes, how do we find out if more than 1/2 of the board members would be willing to make those changes?  My gut tells me that most want it the way it is and nothing is going to change because we simply ask them.

I think the changes should be suggested regardless. Every board member will have to voice their opinion publicly. So we will find out where everyone stands.

Regarding going door to door and suggesting a new organization I am a bit confused. Many people may not even know about the current one (SPAR).

I doubt that there is a resident in Springfield who doesn't know what SPAR is.  Most of them think that SPAR hands out the COAs and gives permission to "do things".

I think a survey is an EXCELLENT idea.  I'll volunteer.

People may not be following the political dancing here, but they all know what they need and want from their community organization.  It would be a guide to keep us all on track.

This would solve part of one of the problems.

I’ll volunteer too, but I have to tell you I cause people to either run out the back door and windows or hide in closets.  8)

Quote from: sheclown on September 28, 2008, 06:03:33 PM
I doubt that there is a resident in Springfield who doesn't know what SPAR is.  Most of them think that SPAR hands out the COAs and gives permission to "do things".

I think a survey is an EXCELLENT idea.  I'll volunteer.

People may not be following the political dancing here, but they all know what they need and want from their community organization.  It would be a guide to keep us all on track.

This would solve part of one of the problems.

I think your right. I talk to many neighbors up here in the forgotten quadrant and that is exactly what they think SPAR is.

I also hear a lot about how much better it was in the "old days" and how much SPAR has changed. There is a real feeling of disfranchise with half our neighbors, usually low to moderate income and/or renters. I have had many tell me SPAR used to care, but now they only car eif you have money. Living in several urban areaw and emerging neighborhoods I can tell you part of the charm is the great mixture of backgrounds, ethnicities, lifestyles, and traditions. A true melting pot is what an urban area should strive for. If you just want rich white people then move to the suburbs.

AlexS, I too will volunteer. I will volunteer to help beef up your survey or create a new one, and get it out to the neighborood. I will also volunteer to collect and analyze the findings. I will volunteer to go through the by-laws and articles and help craft ammendments to be submitted. I will also go to all the meetings needed to have the ammendments presented, and take detailed notes on who votes how and what they say.  if SPAR is to be saved and revamped, this would be a critical step.


btw, I think I could get some more volunteers to help too. (one holdback is a LOT of people think SPAR can hurt them, turn them into the city and such...this is a real obstacle to be faced

 

HEY!  Can I be on Deportman's team?

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 06:55:28 PM

Quote from: sheclown on September 28, 2008, 06:03:33 PM
I doubt that there is a resident in Springfield who doesn't know what SPAR is.  Most of them think that SPAR hands out the COAs and gives permission to "do things".

I think a survey is an EXCELLENT idea.  I'll volunteer.

People may not be following the political dancing here, but they all know what they need and want from their community organization.  It would be a guide to keep us all on track.

This would solve part of one of the problems.

I think your right. I talk to many neighbors up here in the forgotten quadrant and that is exactly what they think SPAR is.

I also hear a lot about how much better it was in the "old days" and how much SPAR has changed. There is a real feeling of disfranchise with half our neighbors, usually low to moderate income and/or renters. I have had many tell me SPAR used to care, but now they only car eif you have money. Living in several urban areaw and emerging neighborhoods I can tell you part of the charm is the great mixture of backgrounds, ethnicities, lifestyles, and traditions. A true melting pot is what an urban area should strive for. If you just want rich white people then move to the suburbs.

AlexS, I too will volunteer. I will volunteer to help beef up your survey or create a new one, and get it out to the neighborood. I will also volunteer to collect and analyze the findings. I will volunteer to go through the by-laws and articles and help craft ammendments to be submitted. I will also go to all the meetings needed to have the ammendments presented, and take detailed notes on who votes how and what they say.  if SPAR is to be saved and revamped, this would be a critical step.


btw, I think I could get some more volunteers to help too. (one holdback is a LOT of people think SPAR can hurt them, turn them into the city and such...this is a real obstacle to be faced

And, how do we do this?  You are right, some are going to think we are gathering data which will only ultimately hurt them. 

Well some way to make the feedback/survey anonymous?  A bunch of crazy white people coming up to your door with a clip board and questions won’t work…trust me we already have that in the SPAR board! There needs to be a way to have everyone feel included and I am not sure I have an answer ?

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 07:10:39 PM
Well some way to make the feedback/survey anonymous?  A bunch of crazy white people coming up to your door with a clip board and questions won’t work…trust me we already have that in the SPAR board! There needs to be a way to have everyone feel included and I am not sure I have an answer ?

Good point. 

Thanks Sheclown,

Uptown why would people be afraid of SPAR.  Now that ticks me off.
And now a very good reason to dismantle SPAR.

why can't you create or fine tune your survey, then we make self address, stamped envelopes, I am willing to donate $75.00 for stamps and take a Saturday to put them in mail box's. then see where the chips fall.

You know you can count on me to help!

Deportman...people, disenfranchised, would be afraid of a SPAR member knocking on their door.  

And, really, what has SPAR done for them?  Increased property values?  You have to own the property (or want to sell a property) for that to benefit you.  Otherwise, it is increased rent or RE tax.

Security Force?  The people I have talked to resent the off-duty officers who stop them when they are riding their bikes (because they may be a little scruffy) and ask to see ID and try to find out where they live.  Many, I believe, would rather have the crime around than the perception of persecution that this security force instills.  You say, "if they aren't doing anything wrong, why would they care?"  There are many social reasons for this.  Fear of those in power is the main thing.  ESPECIALLY if those in power are trying to run them off.  And, they are, aren't they?

First Fridays?  I don't think so.  Mommies' club?  Yeah, right.

See where I'm going?

But, door-to-door it would have to be.  It is, IMO, the only way to truly poll all of the citizens in SPR.  AND, it is ALL of the citizens in SPR who ought to count.  (Not just the lovely).

I started a thread in SPAR's forum for questions and concerns to submit to the next SPAR meeting.  Let's get a list of them together b/c we need to submit them several days before the meeting.  The meeting is on October 18th and I believe our questions/concerns need to be formally submitted the week before.

Good, I've already placed a few

Sheclown I understand now, this is the third time I hear why some resident would like to keep the property and streets messed up just so their rent won’t go up.

REVOLT!!!!!

I'm a new resident to Springfield.  Renters aren't good hear unless they have a good landlord. 

Quote from: alta on September 29, 2008, 02:39:30 AM
I'm a new resident to Springfield.  Renters aren't good hear unless they have a good landlord. 

What? Clarify that please

Quote from: deportman on September 28, 2008, 10:46:47 PM
Sheclown I understand now, this is the third time I hear why some resident would like to keep the property and streets messed up just so their rent won’t go up.

It is a matter of losing their homes, not just a matter of 'rent going up.'  We need to protect the affordable housing we have in the neighborhood in order to keep the diversity. 

Sorry, I guess I could have phrased that better.  Landlords that don't take care of their properties or care about the tenants (Flagship Properties).  There are still many that do a great job of both. 

So let me be sure I understand your position, sheclown. You are:

Anti-SPAR
Anti-SRG
(Those 2 are the easy ones to figure out ;-)!

Anti-Crime prevention
Anti-Clean & beautiful
Anti-First Fridays
Anti-Mommies Group

Did I understand your posts correctly? If not, please clarify your position on these issues. If these are the positions you are attempting to implement community-wide, I don’t believe your stance is reflective of the majority in Historic Springfield.

What has SPAR done for you? Here are more details on each of the 3 Community Contribution Tax Credit Program projects:

Residential Safety & Maintenance - Community lighting, alleyway cleaning, maintenance, and depending on funds raised, grading and resurfacing. SPAR has even spoken to multiple paint companies about donating paint so homes/businesses facing financial challenges can be maintained.

Commercial Corridor Revitalization - Cleanliness, security, lighting (COJ puts the historic lightpoles in on the corridors, and SPAR has to pay for the electricity and bulb replacement), and job creation â€" that’s right, new retail on the corridor provides opportunities for full or part-time employment

Hogan’s Creek Parks Improvement â€" Cleanliness and beautification such as historic lighting, seating, the Skateplaza, etc. And this is only the tip of the parks system iceberg. SPAR is working diligently to have the system revitalized to include restoration of  Klutho’s historic elements, re-engineering of the stormwater system so the community’s streets don’t flood, and remediation of the polluted creek and areas that have soil contamination.

The first 2 of these projects will require hundreds of thousands of dollars to implement. The third will require patient, but pressured, work with multiple city departments, and millions of dollars.

Here’s more info on LISC…National mission statement:

“Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) is dedicated to helping nonprofit community development organizations transform distressed neighborhoods into healthy and sustainable communities of choice and opportunity -- good places to work, do business and raise children. LISC mobilizes corporate, government and philanthropic support to provide local community development organizations with:

- loans, grants, and equity investments;
- local, statewide, and national policy support;
- technical and management assistance.

LISC is a national organization with a community focus. Our program staff is based in every city and many of the rural areas where LISC-supported community development takes shape. In collaboration with local community development groups, LISC staff helps identify local priorities and challenges, delivering the most appropriate support to meet the needs.”

And an additional tidbit from LISC’s “Who We Are” section:

“By providing capital, technical expertise, training and information, LISC supports the development of local leadership and the creation of affordable housing, commercial, industrial and community facilities, businesses and jobs.

I’m not sure why SPAR’s partnership with LISC is a bad thing for low- to moderate-income residents, unless you are also…?

Anti-working
Anti-business
Anti- jobs
Anti-childraising
Anti-affordable housing

We know you’ve got a problem with the by-laws and current board make-up. But do you really have issues with the LISC partnership and the programs included in SPAR’s Community Contribution Tax Credit Program?

Imho, I don’t see how these things can NOT help the community improve for EVERYONE…

Quote from: sheclown on September 28, 2008, 08:08:50 PM
Security Force?  The people I have talked to resent the off-duty officers who stop them when they are riding their bikes (because they may be a little scruffy) and ask to see ID and try to find out where they live.  Many, I believe, would rather have the crime around than the perception of persecution that this security force instills.  You say, "if they aren't doing anything wrong, why would they care?"  There are many social reasons for this.  Fear of those in power is the main thing.  ESPECIALLY if those in power are trying to run them off.  And, they are, aren't they?

First Fridays?  I don't think so.  Mommies' club?  Yeah, right.

See where I'm going?

No, I don't. What's the matter with First Fridays? Everyone is invited and some of the "disenfranchised" have shown up to a party or two and have been welcomed.  The Mommies' group? Are you serious?? My wife has been involved with them on and off for the last 5 years. Where is there a problem with them?? When they have Halloween parties at the Women's Club and ALL of the neighborhood children attend?? (including the "disenfrachised" children) When we do the hay ride for trick or treating around the neighborhood and the "disenfranchised" join in and jump on the trailers for the ride?? And as far as the Security funded police, if they're out there stopping these "disenfranchised" when they are riding around on their bikes at night without lights, that's their JOB!!! I want them stopping these people because these are the people that are out there at night selling drugs, doing drugs, robbing our houses, breaking into our cars, stealing the copper off of our air conditioners.. This is how the police can weed some of these "disenfranchised" out from the thieves and thugs.. To say that they would rather have the crime around than to be stopped and questioned by the police is just stupid. They say it because it's not usually their stuff that's being stolen. I don't have a problem with a cop stopping me when I'm out riding on my bike at night but that doesn't usually happen because I obide by the laws and have lights on my bike. If they don't want the cops stopping them then obey the laws and don't give them a reason to. If these are the "disenfranchised" that you are referring to, then you're right I do want them out.

Quote from: zoo on September 29, 2008, 11:57:28 AM
So let me be sure I understand your position, sheclown. You are:

Anti-SPAR
Anti-SRG
(Those 2 are the easy ones to figure out ;-)!

Anti-Crime prevention
Anti-Clean & beautiful
Anti-First Fridays
Anti-Mommies Group

Did I understand your posts correctly? If not, please clarify your position on these issues. If these are the positions you are attempting to implement community-wide, I don’t believe your stance is reflective of the majority in Historic Springfield.

What has SPAR done for you? Here are more details on each of the 3 Community Contribution Tax Credit Program projects:

Residential Safety & Maintenance - Community lighting, alleyway cleaning, maintenance, and depending on funds raised, grading and resurfacing. SPAR has even spoken to multiple paint companies about donating paint so homes/businesses facing financial challenges can be maintained.

Commercial Corridor Revitalization - Cleanliness, security, lighting (COJ puts the historic lightpoles in on the corridors, and SPAR has to pay for the electricity and bulb replacement), and job creation â€" that’s right, new retail on the corridor provides opportunities for full or part-time employment

Hogan’s Creek Parks Improvement â€" Cleanliness and beautification such as historic lighting, seating, the Skateplaza, etc. And this is only the tip of the parks system iceberg. SPAR is working diligently to have the system revitalized to include restoration of  Klutho’s historic elements, re-engineering of the stormwater system so the community’s streets don’t flood, and remediation of the polluted creek and areas that have soil contamination.

The first 2 of these projects will require hundreds of thousands of dollars to implement. The third will require patient, but pressured, work with multiple city departments, and millions of dollars.

Here’s more info on LISC…National mission statement:

“Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) is dedicated to helping nonprofit community development organizations transform distressed neighborhoods into healthy and sustainable communities of choice and opportunity -- good places to work, do business and raise children. LISC mobilizes corporate, government and philanthropic support to provide local community development organizations with:

- loans, grants, and equity investments;
- local, statewide, and national policy support;
- technical and management assistance.

LISC is a national organization with a community focus. Our program staff is based in every city and many of the rural areas where LISC-supported community development takes shape. In collaboration with local community development groups, LISC staff helps identify local priorities and challenges, delivering the most appropriate support to meet the needs.”

And an additional tidbit from LISC’s “Who We Are” section:

“By providing capital, technical expertise, training and information, LISC supports the development of local leadership and the creation of affordable housing, commercial, industrial and community facilities, businesses and jobs.

I’m not sure why SPAR’s partnership with LISC is a bad thing for low- to moderate-income residents, unless you are also…?

Anti-working
Anti-business
Anti- jobs
Anti-childraising
Anti-affordable housing

We know you’ve got a problem with the by-laws and current board make-up. But do you really have issues with the LISC partnership and the programs included in SPAR’s Community Contribution Tax Credit Program?

Imho, I don’t see how these things can NOT help the community improve for EVERYONE…

So please posts updates on the items listed here

Has SPAR gotten paint? Whose house will be painted first?

Is Hogan's Creek gettign cleaned up and when does it start?

When will we get help with our alleyways? No one has EVER come to help clean up the alleyway here....

When are those new jobs coming and where can people apply?

When does work on the storm drain system start and how is SPAR going to pay for that?

What historic elements are missing in Klutho park and when will they be added back?

While LISC is new to the game and may be able to deliver, if they are cutting out the membership then they ARE bad for our neighborhood.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2008, 01:03:16 PM
While LISC is new to the game and may be able to deliver, if they are cutting out the membership then they ARE bad for our neighborhood.

LISC never had any intention to cut out the membership (at least not as far as I know). LISC suggested getting board members with specific talents and backgrounds. They also suggested the Board Member Skills Matrix.

The provision that the board can appoint board members was already in the bylaws at least since the 2006 revision (and I don't have any older ones).

I'm sorry zoo.  I tried reading all of your post and got bored.  What was the question again?

Zoo, your post is a great example of what we have come to expect out of SPAR Council.  Lots of "I've done that and We've done this".  Not much proof that much if any of it was accomblished by the people in charge of SPAR Council. 

You are also taking comments made out of context and twisting the meaning into something you want it to be.  Also a favored tactic of SPAR Council.  So, what position do you hold with SPAR Council?

And for the record, as I have done my research, I see nothing wrong with LISC, but I do see something terribly wrong with the current SPAR Council and it's favored "son" SRG being in control of what LISC is willing to give.   

Quote from: AlexS on September 29, 2008, 01:33:12 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2008, 01:03:16 PM
While LISC is new to the game and may be able to deliver, if they are cutting out the membership then they ARE bad for our neighborhood.

LISC never had any intention to cut out the membership (at least not as far as I know). LISC suggested getting board members with specific talents and backgrounds. They also suggested the Board Member Skills Matrix.

The provision that the board can appoint board members was already in the bylaws at least since the 2006 revision (and I don't have any older ones).

I remember the older by-laws as being some of the positions and not giving the board total control with the right to appoint rather than elect. I'd like to see those older ones. Do you think if I stopped by the SPAR Council office they'd let me see em?

Quote from: strider on September 29, 2008, 03:15:34 PM
I remember the older by-laws as being some of the positions and not giving the board total control with the right to appoint rather than elect. I'd like to see those older ones. Do you think if I stopped by the SPAR Council office they'd let me see em?

I am sure they'd let you see them (the 2006 bylaws). Until recently they were posted on the SPAR web site until they were replaced by the 2008 ones which is now posted there. The parts quoted below have been left unchanged from the 2006 version until today.

QuoteArticle 7 section 3
Up to four positions will be available to allow the Board to appoint members who have specific skills useful to the community or who may not have been available at the time of the election.

QuoteArticle 7 section 4
An appointed member may serve a three-year term and be reappointed by the Board or stand for election for an additional term.

QuoteArticle 7 section 9 (now section 7)
VACANCIES. Resignations of directors shall become effective immediately or on the date specified therein and vacancies will be deemed to exist as of such effective date. The remaining Directors shall fill by a majority vote any vacancies on the Board of Directors and such director so appointed shall serve for the remainder of the term of the directorship so vacated.

I don't think anyone has kept track about who was appointed for special skills and what these special skills were. So it's hard to tell if the 4 board members are used up already.
I believe Lisa, Gerry and Alex were appointed for vacancies. So was Jack.

Quoteuptowngirl:
So please posts updates on the items listed here

Has SPAR gotten paint? Whose house will be painted first?

Is Hogan's Creek gettign cleaned up and when does it start?

When will we get help with our alleyways? No one has EVER come to help clean up the alleyway here....

When are those new jobs coming and where can people apply?

When does work on the storm drain system start and how is SPAR going to pay for that?

What historic elements are missing in Klutho park and when will they be added back?

While LISC is new to the game and may be able to deliver, if they are cutting out the membership then they ARE bad for our neighborhood.

All fair and reasonable questions...and I'd like to know the answers to all of them.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 06:55:28 PM
I will volunteer to go through the by-laws and articles and help craft ammendments to be submitted. I will also go to all the meetings needed to have the ammendments presented, and take detailed notes on who votes how and what they say.  if SPAR is to be saved and revamped, this would be a critical step.

If we want the suggested bylaw amendments on the agenda for the Oct 13 board meeting, I would need to have them by Oct 9 to get them on the agenda.

Quote from: AlexS on September 29, 2008, 03:43:28 PM

Quote from: strider on September 29, 2008, 03:15:34 PM
I remember the older by-laws as being some of the positions and not giving the board total control with the right to appoint rather than elect. I'd like to see those older ones. Do you think if I stopped by the SPAR Council office they'd let me see em?

I am sure they'd let you see them (the 2006 bylaws). Until recently they were posted on the SPAR web site until they were replaced by the 2008 ones which is now posted there. The parts quoted below have been left unchanged from the 2006 version until today.

Ok, so the "will they let me see em?" part was a bad attempt at humor.  It's why I do not make my living as a stand up comic! Otherwise, thanks for posting this.

QuoteArticle 7 section 3
Up to four positions will be available to allow the Board to appoint members who have specific skills useful to the community or who may not have been available at the time of the election.

Yep, this is actually from the original by-laws and makes good sense.  Appoint the talent you may need when you may need it to supplement the hard working volunteers.

QuoteArticle 7 section 4
An appointed member may serve a three-year term and be reappointed by the Board or stand for election for an additional term.

First, this also was intended for only those four appointee board slots - for that particular talent when you needed it.  Not appoint four people friendly to your way of thinking.

And to compare to the current:

Section 4. TERMS AND ELECTION OF DIRECTORS. The membership shall elect Directors
at the annual meeting. A Director shall serve a term of three years. To ensure experienced
leadership, approximately one-third of the Directorships shall be elected or appointed in alternate
years.All Directors will be limited to 2 consecutive terms, or no more than 6 consecutive years.
An appointed member may serve a three-year term and be reappointed by the Board or stand
for election for an additional term.

I would think the purpose of the changes are to insure they can appoint the entire board if they wish and not have those pesky elections at all.  Why else change what was actually a pretty good by-law?

QuoteArticle 7 section 9 (now section 7)
VACANCIES. Resignations of directors shall become effective immediately or on the date specified therein and vacancies will be deemed to exist as of such effective date. The remaining Directors shall fill by a majority vote any vacancies on the Board of Directors and such director so appointed shall serve for the remainder of the term of the directorship so vacated.

So this brings up the question, did the recent appointees occur because someone left and so the new appointees should only be serving until the end of the term of those they replaced?  Oh, wait a minute, they handled this above - no need for elections so it no longer matters!.

I don't think anyone has kept track about who was appointed for special skills and what these special skills were. So it's hard to tell if the 4 board members are used up already.

And this makes no difference what so ever as they no longer have to have elections so who was appointed and why really doesn't matter anymore.  The wording changes made in June 2008 did far more damage to this organization and this community than anything else has in years.  It removed the membership and by default, the entire community, from having any say in what LISC and SPAR Council is planning for this neighborhood.  They have successfully eliminated the community in Springfield, it is now nothing but a future developement of SPAR Council.  

I believe Lisa, Gerry and Alex were appointed for vacancies. So was Jack.

And why were thse appointed?  I can make a guess here - please note this is only my opinion and nothing else.

Lisa - while she is somewhat a wild card, she does have close connections to SRG and while she may initially disagree, she may be convinced into going their way.

Gerry - will be SRG, money and power all the way.

Alex - to help apease the masses through this transition. They are hoping they can control him the way they have others.

Jack - again, he will side with the developers on the vast majority of issies.  He did not get as successful as he is without believing he knows better than thou, so he will side with them.

Just think about some of the past issues - all of the appointees mentioned have been on the same "side" as SRG and friends.  Including Alex, who at least came around on some issues when the real facts are given to him. He is the one I look to to help with any transition of power back to the community, if it happens at all.

Quote from: AlexS on September 29, 2008, 06:03:12 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 28, 2008, 06:55:28 PM
I will volunteer to go through the by-laws and articles and help craft ammendments to be submitted. I will also go to all the meetings needed to have the ammendments presented, and take detailed notes on who votes how and what they say.  if SPAR is to be saved and revamped, this would be a critical step.

If we want the suggested bylaw amendments on the agenda for the Oct 13 board meeting, I would need to have them by Oct 9 to get them on the agenda.

Well batman when should we all meet at the bat cave? (code word for 3 layers!)

Let's make it this week.  Let's work on a solid list of concerns with suggestions and try to get Alex to put us on the agenda. 

Wednesday 7:30PM Bat Cave?

see ya there.

REVOLT Party!!!

Quote from: Driven1 on September 29, 2008, 10:22:25 PM
REVOLT Party!!!

Dude, if your all for a revolt, why don’t you go to Pakistan, North Korea may be even Iran.
Let me know how that works out for you.

SPAR isn't perfect but the pastures are always greener elsewhere right? 

Quote from: alta on September 30, 2008, 01:24:59 AM
SPAR isn't perfect but the pastures are always greener elsewhere right? 

Alta i think you missed a post, this is to review the by-laws and articles and see what they said, what they say now, and if there maybe are some improvements that could be made. I wouldn't really call that a revolt, I would call that members doing what members are supposed to have a right to do (normally).

Quote from: alta on September 30, 2008, 01:24:59 AM
SPAR isn't perfect but the pastures are always greener elsewhere right? 

This could be considered a true revolt.  The membership, and therefore the community at large,  lost it's right to a voice and now, the membership and the community of Springfield is going to tell SPAR Council that it won't allow that to stand.  That is the bottom line, and all the other issues about Springfield brought up on this forum and others are details and do not matter nearly as much as this one single thing.  Democracy normally allows you to “revolt” through the election process.  With the power to force change on SPAR Council through elections taken away, the membership does indeed have to "rise up" and revolt.

Well, most "Organized" "Organizations" have by-laws that protect the organization.  Getting on the board and making changes could be a little difficult if you don't have the backing of you guessed it, the board.

Organize your community.  Use Community Organizers.  And REVOLT!!!

Quote from: strider on September 30, 2008, 08:25:16 AM

Quote from: alta on September 30, 2008, 01:24:59 AM
SPAR isn't perfect but the pastures are always greener elsewhere right? 

This could be considered a true revolt.  The membership, and therefore the community at large,  lost it's right to a voice and now, the membership and the community of Springfield is going to tell SPAR Council that it won't allow that to stand.  That is the bottom line, and all the other issues about Springfield brought up on this forum and others are details and do not matter nearly as much as this one single thing.  Democracy normally allows you to “revolt” through the election process.  With the power to force change on SPAR Council through elections taken away, the membership does indeed have to "rise up" and revolt.

OK I understand, it's just that the word revolt makes me feel very unease.

Okay, let's say "confrontation" instead of "revolution."

rebellion.
uprising.
mutiny in the hood.

I respect that people want change for the greater good.  I hope it all works out to benefit everyone.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2008, 08:52:27 PM
Wednesday 7:30PM Bat Cave?

I won't be in town for this. Just thought I'd let you all know.

I'll be there at 6:30...see ya'll there!

Quote from: AlexS on September 30, 2008, 11:02:10 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 29, 2008, 08:52:27 PM
Wednesday 7:30PM Bat Cave?

I won't be in town for this. Just thought I'd let you all know.

No rush to meet then since I believe ALEXs was the one who volunteered to help us present any suggested changes to the board.

Quote from: uptowngirl on October 01, 2008, 07:00:24 AM
No rush to meet then since I believe ALEXs was the one who volunteered to help us present any suggested changes to the board.

I would present them to the board. But I thought the membership was unhappy with the bylaws and wanted them changed. The suggested changes still need to come from the members.

Quote from: sheclown on September 30, 2008, 08:27:33 PM
Okay, let's say "confrontation" instead of "revolution."

I like Challenge as in SPARC or C/SPAR, the Spar Challenge, just not opportunitiy please.

I know AlexS and I trust him to keep his word.  AlexS has said he won't be in town tonight, but he has stated he will be at the board meeting. If we are going to have any chance to get SPAR Council to listen to us, we need to do this now.  AlexS not being at the proposed meeting does not change anything as he is simply willing to be the messenger. If we give him reasonable demands and we go to the "open" board meeting to support him, we actually have a very small chance to make this work. But it needs to be now.  We can not allow "them" too much time to circle the wagons.  It is bad enough they know everything that we post as it is, more time works in their favor.

Let's keep the meeting and let's keep the schedule to get our demands to them for the next Board meeting.
I'll see you all tonight.

I don't know if you guys will have me but as a board member I would be glad to be at the meeting and take your questions and requests to the full board. I am very much my own person and lived in Springfield before I started selling real estate. I do sell SRG homes along with historic homes but my goal is to make Springfield the best it can be. I consider Mack more of a friend and neighbor than a boss and regardless of what people think, he does not tell me what to do, say or think. I was asked to join the board in a real estate capacity to keep the group informed of goings on in the market. There are several other Realtors involved also whether it's Reggie, writing his newsletter column, Amanda taking charge of the 5K run, Teresa working tirelessly for the Mommies Group or Joe and Chris heading up a Heritage Days Committee. I was one of the 3 members who voted to make the board votes public and I was the loudest defender of keeping the forum board open. I am often frustrated my written text on these boards does not always relay the intent of my posts but be assured that my love for this neighborhood is the reason I am involved. In the end I think we all want what's best for Springfield.

Springfield Girl, you are right on! As Stoder previously posted we need to keep the personal out of it and do what is best for the neighborhood.

My main concerns are:

Voting for board members and even appointees
Voting on by-law changes
Transparency

really that is it... I do not have a personal ax to grind, just strongly believe in the above three items, so I would LOVE to have you there!

I agree. I think SPAR would be a better organization and I think more people would be happy with the goings on if we could get more resident's input. I honestly don't know how to do it though. I did email the other board members to suggest that we go back to a question and answer format at the general meetings instead of a guest speaker or social function type meeting. In my early days in Springfield residents brought up issues affecting their property, area etc. at meetings and got information, ideas and advice from other residents. It helped to talk about shared issues and brainstorm. I have had discussions through the years with other neighbors about forming a homeowners association of sorts. Not in the, tell people what color to paint their house type of way but neighbors talking about issues that effect their property, families and quality of life. This may be a way for residents to come up with a concensus of expectations for the neighborhood. This could be taken by representatives to SPAR or not and dealt with within the organization depending on what the residents want.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on October 01, 2008, 03:03:21 PM
I agree. I think SPAR would be a better organization and I think more people would be happy with the goings on if we could get more resident's input. I honestly don't know how to do it though. I did email the other board members to suggest that we go back to a question and answer format at the general meetings instead of a guest speaker or social function type meeting. In my early days in Springfield residents brought up issues affecting their property, area etc. at meetings and got information, ideas and advice from other residents. It helped to talk about shared issues and brainstorm. I have had discussions through the years with other neighbors about forming a homeowners association of sorts. Not in the, tell people what color to paint their house type of way but neighbors talking about issues that effect their property, families and quality of life. This may be a way for residents to come up with a concensus of expectations for the neighborhood. This could be taken by representatives to SPAR or not and dealt with within the organization depending on what the residents want.

I like that!

So do I...and I look forward to seeing everyone this evening!

Thank you Springfield Girl.

Here's the summary of issues of concern to be submitted at the board meeting:

QuoteExecutive Director

* Should have no voting privileges
* Have term limitation
* Should be elected by the board members
* Should have staggered terms

Bylaws

* Review, for possible revision
* Should not be changed unless ratified by membership vote
* Must require elections for a board members, with no appointments

Agenda

* Should be posted prior to scheduled meeting
* Require minutes to be taken and posted

Transparency

* Post board meeting notes (for all boards, committees)
* List items, voting record for each item
* Members should refrain from voting to eliminate conflict of interest

Thank you to everyone who took the time to come to this meeting. The conversation was lively and enjoyable. Opening lines of communication this way can only be a good thing.

Thank you Joan for doing this so quickly! 

Thank you Springfield girl for being there.

Good talk, good coffee, meaningful fellowship.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As promised in an earlier post, here are the proposed changes to the by-laws that a few of us met about and discussed. I have had it reviewed to ensure that it reflects what was discussed. It is only a rough draft and is only a proposal. Changes and modifications to this proposal are invited. This has been posted on the Spar forum, Developement Concerns, here and MetroJacksonville.

I have listed the current by-law section that we would like to see changed and then our proposed solution to the problem. This is the format requested by one of the current board members. I will try to keep an updated list of suggested changes and perhaps we can meet again to finalize this proposal.

Proposed amendments to the SPAR Council by-laws, June 2008 revision

ROUGH DRAFT ONLY - for review by the membership and interested community members.

Current: Article 7, Section 3. Number of Directors. The board shall have between 10 and 15 directors.

Proposed: Article 7, Section 3. Number of Directors. The board shall have between 11 and 15 directors. At all times, the number of directors shall be an odd number.

This change is suggested as elsewhere the Executive Director position loses it’s voting rights and it does make sense to insure that an odd number of members are on the board. While it was not on the list, it was a point made by a couple of people at the discussion and so here it is for further discussion.

Current: Article 7, Section 4. Terms and Election of Directors. The membership shall elect Directors at the annual meeting. A Director shall serve a term of three years. To ensure experienced leadership, approximately one-third of the Directorships shall be elected or appointed in alternate years.

An appointed member may serve a three year term and be reappointed by the Board or stand for election for an additional term.

Proposed: Article 7, Section 4. Terms and Election of Directors. The membership shall elect Directors at the annual meeting. A Director shall serve a term of three years. To ensure experienced leadership, at least one-third of the Directorships shall be elected in alternate years.
An appointed member may serve until the next election and then must stand for election to serve a full or additional term.

These changes ensures elections every year. This is the heart of why the discussion took place to begin with. As revised in June, 2008, the by-laws enable the current board to appoint new members without ever having to hold an election again.


Current: Article 8, Section 1. BOARD ASSESSMENT. To ensure the Board has a diversity of skills and representation, the Governance Committee is responsible for recruiting, screening and interviewing candidates before nominating a slate of candidates at the annual membership meeting.

Prior to recommending candidates, the Governance Committee is responsible for assessing
the Corporation’s expertise and talents to determine gaps in skills and other important representation such as gender, residency, ethnicity, etc. In addition, the Committee will review the attendance of current Board members to consider renewing their terms once they have expired.

Based on the interview and supplemental information requested of the candidate, the
committee will decide whether the candidate will be nominated. Candidates can only be nominated at the annual membership meeting once they have been interviewed and voted by the Governance Committee and the Board. There will be no nominations accepted from the floor.

Proposed: Article 8, Section 1. NOMINATION PROCESS. The Board, prior to an election, will appoint a Steering Committee Chairman from the general membership. The chairman of this committee shall recruit two to four additional committee members from the membership. This Committee will nominate members of the organization for the vacant seats. They will be responsible for assuring that all potential candidates understand the qualifications and duties of a Director. The applications must be validated before the names can be put into nomination. The slate of candidates will be advertised to the membership one month prior to the election. The Committee will also conduct the election at the Annual Meeting.

There is concern over the power of the Governance Committee so it was suggested that it be replaced with a steering Committee. I freely admit that I am unclear as to the best way to accomplish this, so please feel free to …help! It was my impression that the members of a steering committee should be from the general membership rather than the Board. I assume there is some standard way of saying this?


Current: Section 3. ELECTION PROCESS. Elections for the Board will be held at the Annual
Membership meeting.

The election shall be conducted by the Governance Committee. Each verified member shall receive a ballot listing the nominees for the Board. Prior to the voting, the candidates will have an opportunity to make a one-minute self- introduction.

Proposed: Section 6. ELECTION PROCESS. Elections for the Board of Directors will be held at the Annual Membership meeting. Elections for open board seats shall be adequately publicized within the Corporation's service area via newsletter, website, mailings, etc. An ample opportunity shall be given to all service area residents to become members of the Corporation and, thus, eligible to participate in the election process.

The election shall be conducted by the Steering Committee. Each verified member shall receive a ballot listing the nominees for the Board of Directors.


This is to just eliminate the Governance Committee from this section and replace it with the Steering Committee.


Current: Article 9, Section 4. SECRETARY. The Secretary shall maintain, all corporate records, except the
financial records. The secretary shall ensure the recording of all the minutes of the Board and the
Corporation meetings and will give all notices as are required by law or these Bylaws, and generally,
will perform all duties incident to the office of Secretary and such other duties as may be required by
law, by the Articles of Incorporation, or by these Bylaws. All records will be maintained in the
organization office.

Proposed: Article 9, Section 4. SECRETARY. The Secretary shall maintain, all corporate records, except the financial records. The secretary shall ensure the recording of all the minutes of the Board and the Corporation meetings. These minutes and recordings shall include the voting history of all Board members on all votes. The secretary will also give all notices as are required by law or these Bylaws, and generally, will perform all duties incident to the office of Secretary and such other duties as may be required by law, by the Articles of Incorporation, or by these Bylaws. All records will be maintained in the
organization office.

Not sure if this is where it belongs. But it must be in the by-laws. As mentioned in the recent discussion, it is the best way for the membership to see how well the elected board members are representing them. It also allows for a open discussion as to why things were voted on the way they were.

In addition to the above, it does seem like the membership needs some additional assurance that things are remaining “transparent”. We can use some input as to how best to achieve that. It does seem that a lot of the requested “transparency” such as working for someone who might benefit by a vote is already addressed in the by-laws “code of ethics”.


Current: Article 10, Section 9. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR. The Board shall have the power to hire an Executive Director to serve at the Board's discretion and to carry out the policies and programs established by the Board. The Executive Director shall be an ex-officio member of the Board and shall have the same rights and privileges as all other Board members, including, the right to vote.

Proposed: Article 10, Section 9. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR. The Board shall have the power to hire an Executive Director to serve at the Board's and membership’s discretion and to carry out the policies and programs established by the Board and the membership. The Executive Director shall be given a __ year(s) contract, and is to be reviewed annually by a Steering Committee.

This change simply removes the voting rights of the executive director and ensures that the position is as an employee, not an equal to the elected Board members. The term will also have to be decided. In addition, as an employee, they may serve as many terms as both parties wish.?

Let’s face it, the executive director is the face most often in front of others from the city, other organizations, etc. In my mind, it makes no difference whether the position is paid or not. While it is currently not a paid position, it has been in the past and may be again someday, finances permitting. The person who holds that position must be accountable to the entire membership and should not be voting, etc. but rather acting as an advisor to the Board. Their input is critical, but the power to vote should rest with the elected board. This change actually protects both parties. If the position can not vote it is much harder to assume inappropriate behavior yet it recognizes the importance of the Executive Director’s input and influence.

Current: Article 11, Section 3. BOARD GOVERNANCE COMMITTEE. The Board Governance Committee (the “Governance Committee”) shall consist of up to five members and shall be open to the membership. The President will appoint the Chairperson of this committee who shall be a current member of the board. The Chairperson and the President will jointly appoint other members to serve on the Governance Committee. The Governance Committee is responsible for ensuring the nomination process for both Directors and Officers is carried out annually consistent with the process outlined in Article 8. It is also responsible for insuring these Bylaws are periodically reviewed and relevant and that the Corporation’s committee structure is functioning.

Proposed: Article 11, Section 3. Removed entirely.

Due to changes proposed earlier, there is no longer any need for the governance committee. Some also felt that this committee had too much power. This could be where more information about the Steering Committee(s) is located.


Current: Article 12, Section 5. AMENDMENTS. The Bylaws may be amended at anytime by a vote of the 2/3 majority of Directors at a meeting where a quorum is present.

Proposed: Article 12, Section 5. AMENDMENTS. The Bylaws may only be amended at anytime by a vote of the 2/3 majority of the membership at a meeting where a quorum is present. A special meeting may be called for this purpose.


This is to ensure that the rights of the membership and community can not be removed again by the Board by modifying the by-laws.

Wednesday night @ 6:30, a group of us will gather at 3 Layers to discuss the latest developments in the SPAR Council By-Laws situation. 

Join us ... drink some coffee, eat some cake. 

good luck.  by-laws are never any fun.  But you gotta have 'em and good ones at that.

I've followed this thread for a while now.  It seems that some comments are fair and reasonable.  However, some seem contradictory to what I think the community wants and desires.  If you are knowledgable of trends in the nonprofit sector, some of the recent actions are right on track.  Reading what is being proposed as changes to the by-laws will ultimately not strengthen the organization.  There should be a Governance committee.  The chair of any committee of the board must be a board member.  The committee can consist of the general membership, but ultimately its chair reports to the Board.  And that includes nominating.  Most boards are moving away from that anyway and moving to a Board Development committee that assesses the needs of the organizational leadership and strives to identify specific skills and functions needed for the organization to successfully meet its mission.  The Executive Director, while having no voting rights, serves exofficio to the Board.  They are employed by the Board and is accountable to them, not to the general membership.  Their sole function is to carry out the mission of the organization as established by the Board. 

It seems that many feel the course of SPAR is off track.  You might be better served with starting a new organization that focuses on those issues you feel most important.  There is nothing wrong with having several organizations serving the neighborhood.  If SPAR has been successful with somethings in the past, yet chooses to beginning working on other issues, then a new organization could be formed to pick up the old mission of SPAR.  There are a number of talented individuals in Springfield.  I know that you can figure out something.  If you feel that SPAR is shutting you, the residents, out of their actions, then stop fretting over it in this forum and start something new and fresh and relevant to your desires.

Quote from: City Slicker on October 12, 2008, 02:12:20 AM
I've followed this thread for a while now.  It seems that some comments are fair and reasonable.  However, some seem contradictory to what I think the community wants and desires.  If you are knowledgable of trends in the nonprofit sector, some of the recent actions are right on track. 

How can taking the community membership's voice away be right on track? Are voting rights being canceled across the country?  Do these non-profit community organizations routinely do this? 

Do they give the executive director voting rights? 

Please supply a list of these non-profit community organizations so we can contact them and find out how they are working things out.

Exactly and it amazes me that others cannot see the problem here...

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2008, 04:51:15 PM

The primary concern seems to be that the board has become a closed circuit of decision makers answerable only to themselves, but with the benefit of using the money and legitimacy of the entire neighborhood based membership.

It is the 'legitimacy of the entire neighborhood based membership' that I find scary.  The only way to have an effective community organization, is to represent the community -- how can SPAR Council negotiate for the neighborhood and  yet not allow the membership to participate in meaningful ways?  I don't understand why the board members who do not like the election-canceling decision aren't up in arms about it?  I think the executive board really pulled a fast one on them.  And, I might add, will continue to do so.  They should be the ones leading the fight here.

But perhaps, if I followed the non-profit trends more closely, I would understand.  Yeah, right.

The  SPAR website (http://www.sparcouncil.org) is up-to-date and includes SPAR responses to some issues raised in this thread.

You can also go here:

http://jaxoutloud.com/forum/showthread.php?p=75613#post75613

to see a discussion on this topic

QuoteJaxByDefault:The  SPAR website (http://www.sparcouncil.org) is up-to-date and includes SPAR responses to some issues raised in this thread.

I don't see responses...other than this

Quote· A Q & A Session is on the agenda for the November General Membership Meeting Thursday, November 20th at 7PM at Karpeles to discuss recent changes to the SPAR bylaws. The Q&A session is intended to involve all SPAR members in the process of recruiting board members who are willing to contribute to the LISC/SPAR plans for the neighborhood and the commercial corridor revitalization efforts. At this meeting, procedures for filling board vacancies under the new bylaws and the use of a matrix to determine the types of skills needed by the board (fundraising, event planning, advertising, marketing, etc.) will be reviewed â€" as well as plans for engaging the community in the recruitment of potential candidates with those skills.

What else am I missing on their site?

ahhh...responses.

Quoteas well as plans for engaging the community in the recruitment of potential candidates with those skills.

That's my favorite line....they already made it pretty clear that they don't need the members input

There will be another meeting, Wednesday the 29th at Three Layers

Isn;t there some general meeting tonight that they want everyone to come to but nothing is goingt o go on at it?

In order to meet the deadline for submitting questions for the board to respond to...those interested: we'll get together on Wednesday, November 5th at Three Layers at 6:30 PM.

Quote from: jbm32206 on October 23, 2008, 04:50:52 AM
There will be another meeting, Wednesday the 29th at Three Layers

So is this meeting today still happening in addition to the one on Nov 5 ?

Just to clarify - We moved the meeting from today, October 29th to next Wed., November 5th. 

Thanks for clearing that up...it was early when I posted it and was running late....

What time are we meeting tomorrow at 3 layers?

6:30 PM

Some of us who are concerned about the recent changes to the SPAR Council by-laws are meeting again tonight.  As this is the day after we got to vote for the most important office in the land, it is very appropriate that we address an issue that prevents us from voting or even having a say  in the affairs of Springfield.  Minor in the big scheme of things, but major in our little community.

Our nation cast it’s vote yesterday for change.  We all hope that the change will be good;  good for us, good for the country.  The SPAR Council board of directors voted for change too.  But it is change that common sense says is not for the good, at least not for the common good. 

We urge you to come out and join us for this meeting.  We intend to use it to insure the right questions are asked on the 20th of November and to find a way to insure we get real answers.  And to talk about how we too can make some changes for the good of all of us.

Keep stumping Strider. What "change" do you speak of in S'field? Positive change in the community, which I don't think anyone can deny is happening, or just change in leadership the ensure the community does not change?

QuoteBut it is change that common sense says is not for the good, at least not for the common good.

Your common sense and mine say very different things. You must not be talking to the "commoners" (your choice of labels, not mine) who are happy to not have drugs being sold on their corner or trash in their front yards.

And a majority is not made up of those most vocal, but of those with greater numbers. I hope the turnout on Nov 20 is statistically representative of the community (though I'm doubtful, even if it is, this thread and it's underlying negativity will be allowed to rest).

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2008, 06:54:00 AM
Keep stumping Strider. What "change" do you speak of in S'field? Positive change in the community, which I don't think anyone can deny is happening, or just change in leadership the ensure the community does not change?

QuoteBut it is change that common sense says is not for the good, at least not for the common good.

Your common sense and mine say very different things. You must not be talking to the "commoners" (your choice of labels, not mine) who are happy to not have drugs being sold on their corner or trash in their front yards.

And a majority is not made up of those most vocal, but of those with greater numbers. I hope the turnout on Nov 20 is statistically representative of the community (though I'm doubtful, even if it is, this thread and it's underlying negativity will be allowed to rest).

HA HA!!! You are absolutely right, the neighborhood should not know what is going on, nor should they care, nor should they want to be involved, nor should they get to vote.... I mean heck let's just start lettign a select few hand pick all our leaders???!!!!

btw, where do you live that you do not have trash in your yard or drugs being sold within a block of you? I would guess in one of the areas (limited areas) the crime fund officer are directed to wrok in (something the majority of the neighbors don't get to enjoy!)

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2008, 06:54:00 AM
Keep stumping Strider. What "change" do you speak of in S'field? Positive change in the community, which I don't think anyone can deny is happening, or just change in leadership the ensure the community does not change?

QuoteBut it is change that common sense says is not for the good, at least not for the common good.

Your common sense and mine say very different things. You must not be talking to the "commoners" (your choice of labels, not mine) who are happy to not have drugs being sold on their corner or trash in their front yards.

And a majority is not made up of those most vocal, but of those with greater numbers. I hope the turnout on Nov 20 is statistically representative of the community (though I'm doubtful, even if it is, this thread and it's underlying negativity will be allowed to rest).

So, I should accept having an organization that claims to represent my best interests but tells me that getting home and to bed on time is more important than keeping the community it represents properly informed or having a say in how it is represented?  (As strider was informed by the president of SPAR Council when asked why only pre-submitted questions were being accepted for the Nov. 20th meeting.) Accept that a select few, only those on the current board, decide that they are the only ones that know what is best for the community and tell us all that we can not be trusted to elect the "right" people to the board so no elections? (Based on comments made by the Executive Director during a phone call to strider).

You seem to be giving SPAR Council's leadership credit for the "positive" changes in the community.  Are you not forgetting how those changes actually occurred?  Did they not occur from the hard work of the many volunteers over many years?  And by several organizations, not just the current SPAR Council? And did those changes not occur during the time that SPAR Council was still concerned with "restoration" and while those same people who are now being excluded from the decision making process still had a vote and many were actually on the board?  I think you are giving too much credit to too few.

As to the "commoners"  - by the way, talking about the "common good" and "commoners" are two different things but your interpretation shows your feelings on the subject - I can talk to one person who firmly believes that the - just as a "for instance" - security fund is a wonderful thing and then, as someone else has posted here, two people who live across the "hood" that believe otherwise. You of all people, Zoo, should know that statistics can be made to "say" pretty much whatever you want them too. 

It is very odd that you, and we know who you have business ties to, accuse us of wanting a change in leadership.  We haven't said that.  What we have said is that we want a voice in who that leadership is. We want a SPAR Council board that has been elected by the community it claims to represent.  Your statement: "..change in leadership the ensure the community does not change?" tells me that you believe that positive change is only possible with the current leadership. I have to ask why?  Why are you and the SPAR Council board so afraid of the possibility of having elected board members? Why is it that you feel the need to have total control of who is on the board?  That give us reasons to be concerned as to what kind of changes you and the board have in mind.  And are those new changes actually going to be positive?

Strider, you and I have spoken in person, and I told you I am not a afraid of a change in leadership, or a vote to elect leadership, or a change in bylaws to ensure some members of the community get to go through the process. And to Stephen's/Dan's points, I'm hopeful all will stop with personal attacks.

I don't claim to represent the community or anyone in it. But just as you might be able to name 100 people that are unhappy with what SPAR is doing, I could just as easily name 100 people who are happy. Putting that into perspective, there are approx 4500 people living within the historic district boundaries (feel free to contact Jim at Ulrich Research to get info on how many would be statistically representative - and if it's 100, yes, either side could "make the numbers say what they want").

You have been claiming to represent the community, and its dis-satisfication with the elected (10) and appointed (4) board. That's right, 10 of them were elected by the members of the community that wanted to have a voice at the time -- were you there? Why didn't you put your boardmember nominations on the ballot then?

SPAR is not a governing, nor enforcement, entity. It is a non-profit charity, that if it can raise the funds, could do whatever COJ, HPC, its own bylaws, its board, and a majority of residents would support it doing. I have seen no evidence of a majority other than through votes that have already occurred. If there is a differing majority, then future elections (which I support wholeheartedly) will bear that out.

I'll be fine with the outcome of future elections. The real question is will you be, if all of your stumping merely results in un-elected boardmember candidates?

Zoo, From information I was given, at least 4, possibly 5 were appointed prior to Jack Meeks, who would be either 5th or 6th.  Then, I know at least two, maybe three - one of which was an appoinment from what I can gather, have or will be leaving the board.  We can only assume the replacements will be appointed. 

Your post was fine.  You did forget to mention that while the majority of the board was elected, there is no longer any requirement that there be elections anymore.  Which is sort of the entire point of this discussion.  It is not about getting "our" nominations of the ballot, but just hoping to get a ballot at all.

If you wish to discredit our little movement here, that's fine.  Do your best.  But you should recognize that we have not been reprsenting ourselves as "representing the entire community", rather, we are attempting to insure that SPAR Council actually tries to represent the entire community.  Alittle difficult for the organization to actually do that if they never hold elections again.

To be honest, worrying about how the by-laws were changed to make it possible not to hold elections may be a mute point.  It seems that evidence exists that at least the executive board isn't bothering to follow the by-laws anyway.

So, if speaking out about how I feel this is just wrong and if a group of others agree and speak out as well means we are "stumping", so be it.  At least it is for a good cause.  What are you "stumping" for?

As for the small group of concerned Springfield residents, I'm one of them. I find it wrong that the board has changed the bylaws to where elections are no longer required and likely not to be held. This is upsetting as a member and a resident, for it takes away the opportunity of choice as to whom I feel is best to represent the interests of the neighborhood.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 06, 2008, 08:47:38 AMdont you know zoo. We are being kept out of the process. We arent being allowed to have a say in what happens in our neighborhood. SPARs Stalinist like approach to governing the community (Even though its not a governmental body) has excluded MILLIONS from the process.

Hahaha. It will be impossible to quiet the axe grinding, shy of SPAR implementing ever demand, and unanimously electing Strider as the grand poobah,(I dont think it will stop, regardless). Once he has been elevated to control, he can stop the evil Jack Meeks and Mack Bissetts of the world, and help the common man by putting five or six dudes in every house.

angry and demeaning PM in 5....4....3....2..

If you don't feel the need to be part of the solution, why are you so intent on trying to belittle those who are trying to find one? There's absolutely no need for personal insults or attacks, and they won't be tolerated.

What could possibly be wrong about questioning a policy which eliminates the community's participation in these elections?  

It is a community organization, for crying out loud.  

As for attacks by others, they've been and will continue to be dealt with, and you know that. As a moderator, I will not tolerate personal attacks...so yeah, I'll deal with it. You can be as shrill as you want, but I ask that you, like everyone else, refrain from making personal attacks.

Now, as a Springfield resident that's part of this movement...how was this thread started as an attempt to smear you?

Quote from: ApearsonGreat thanks.  Although your seriously flattering yourself with a greatly exagerated sense of importance if you think this thread was started with you in mind.

I started it, so I can guarantee you that you simply are responding to imaginary attacks.

thanks.

Really APearson??? I wasnt aware we had ever exchanged posts before...

QuoteYou did forget to mention that while the majority of the board was elected, there is no longer any requirement that there be elections anymore.  Which is sort of the entire point of this discussion.

I didn't forget to mention it. I didn't mention it because the point has been made ad infinitum, and I didn't think it needed to be mentioned AGAIN, as SPAR will be hearing concerns regarding the bylaws at the Nov 20 meeting (though that appears to be unsatisfactory to you, as well, since SPAR is not conducting this business on YOUR terms).

How many times is this point going to be re-posted and re-discussed? SPAR will be hearing your concerns ALREADY! As for what I'm stumping for:

1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2008, 10:30:46 PM
1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

A great list that everyone in the community, regardless of skin color, or economic status should be able to agree on.

Please....let's keep this thread on the topic and stay away from making it personal...it shouldn't be, and those conversations should be handled through private messaging. To make this into personal issues takes away from the topic.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 06, 2008, 08:36:34 PM

Sheclown, I have no interest in dealing with you.

Except...here you go.[/color]

I have stated time and again I though not holding the elections was dumb. I also told that thought to Louise. How transparent is your non-profit?

You are freakin' kidding right?  How transparent are we?  After the hounds were called out last year, we've had all government agencies stomping through our lives:  local, state, federal. 

The benefit to having our lives on public display, btw,  is that we came through clean.  Transparent, oh yeah.  

Quote from: downtownparks on November 07, 2008, 07:49:37 AM
Yikes. Sounds pretty hard core... Do you feel your industry shouldn't be regulated?

Stop.  Think.  Breath.  OK, then look at the fact that 1)  We, as a non-profit, are a private non-profit and cater to a very select group unlike SPAR Council who claims to represent everyone in Springfield. 2) The fact that pretty much any agency you can think of has been called and has been in to see us sort of indicates that our "industry" is pretty well regulated. We did, by the way, pass every "inspection". 3) This past history has no bearing on this discussion except for you who wishes to smear us and therefore this little movement.  4) This discussion also has proved that SPAR Council could not stand up to the scrutiny that was brought to bare on our non-profit and the executive board knows it. 

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2008, 10:30:46 PM

QuoteYou did forget to mention that while the majority of the board was elected, there is no longer any requirement that there be elections anymore.  Which is sort of the entire point of this discussion.

I didn't forget to mention it. I didn't mention it because the point has been made ad infinitum, and I didn't think it needed to be mentioned AGAIN, as SPAR will be hearing concerns regarding the bylaws at the Nov 20 meeting (though that appears to be unsatisfactory to you, as well, since SPAR is not conducting this business on YOUR terms).

How many times is this point going to be re-posted and re-discussed? SPAR will be hearing your concerns ALREADY! As for what I'm stumping for:

1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

Yes, a very good list and a worthwhile list.  A list that everyone in Springfield can agree on. But, as pointed out to even presidential campaigns, how do you get there?  Idealistic goals are only just that, goals, and mean little without a plan and a way to achieve them.  So, if we start breaking down each of those goals to see if SPAR Council is working in a manor that will properly achieve those goals, what will we find?  Is SPAR Council actually working to achieve those goals for every resident?  Only some of them?  Are they using one of the "goals" to get rid of a group of current residents (other than criminals, of course.) because they don't want them here?  Are they using the cover of working towards these goals to achieve something else entirely?  Something the board doesn't want to discuss with the membership nor the community?

Without the transparency that we are asking for, we can not get the answers to these questions.  Without the transparency  that some on the board seem afraid of, speculation can and will run wild.  There is a possibility that all of the changes and all of the instances of ignoring the by-laws were done without malice; with good intentions, but the harder they resist a true discussion about it, the more they appear to be hiding.

You, Zoo, sort of criticized me for even bring this discussion up again.  Yet, all I did initially was make a post to try to get people to come out for a meeting.  You opened this discussion up again.   I will agree though, that it still does need to be discussed whether the November 20th meeting has been held yet or not.  The actual language used to describe the purpose of this meeting, the attitude of the executive board and the facts presented say that no change is intended.  In this case, no change means no elections and no real transparency.   There are past and current board members involved with this discussion and all agree on one thing:  SPAR Council has gone in a bad direction by eliminating elections, excluding the membership from decisions and ignoring the by-laws. 

Quote from: strider on November 07, 2008, 09:14:17 AM
Yes, a very good list and a worthwhile list.  A list that everyone in Springfield can agree on. But, as pointed out to even presidential campaigns, how do you get there?  Idealistic goals are only just that, goals, and mean little without a plan and a way to achieve them.  So, if we start breaking down each of those goals to see if SPAR Council is working in a manor that will properly achieve those goals, what will we find?  Is SPAR Council actually working to achieve those goals for every resident?  Only some of them?  Are they using one of the "goals" to get rid of a group of current residents (other than criminals, of course.) because they don't want them here?  Are they using the cover of working towards these goals to achieve something else entirely?  Something the board doesn't want to discuss with the membership nor the community?

Without the transparency that we are asking for, we can not get the answers to these questions.  Without the transparency  that some on the board seem afraid of, speculation can and will run wild.  There is a possibility that all of the changes and all of the instances of ignoring the by-laws were done without malice; with good intentions, but the harder they resist a true discussion about it, the more they appear to be hiding.

There are past and current board members involved with this discussion and all agree on one thing:  SPAR Council has gone in a bad direction by eliminating elections, excluding the membership from decisions and ignoring the by-laws. 

Nicely put Strider. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is important to set emotions and past differences aside and focus on the facts and underlying root causes. Only a frank and honest discussion of a diverse group will provide an actionable plan with broad support.

The issues to be addressed go way beyond SPAR, Springfield and even Jacksonville. But if we can find solutions for Springfield maybe we be an example.

Issues influencing our plans and needing to be considered are:
- downturn of the economy (recession)
- high unemployment rate of 6.5% (highest since 1994)
- dried up credit market residential and commercial
- housing bubble and high mortgage defaults (foreclosures) and declining home values
- pending healthcare bubble (this may by far exceed the 700 Bil rescue package; some estimate it around 11 tril or more)
- how does current legislature affect preserving and restoring historic structures vs. demolition
- income disparity (some can afford a $500,000 home in SPR, others barely afford rent on $15,000 annual income) yet we all live next door and share the same infrastructure and services
- perceived class war and gentrification with all it's various interpretations
- reduced budget for JSO and other city services
- which businesses do residents want here vs. which businesses are economically viable right now
- how to engage residents in open dialog, active participation and constructive criticism (say what's wrong and offer a solution)

Thanks, AlexS.  Your list is very much part of the issue here.  We all have a very difficult road ahead of us.  We can only hope that we can get down it and back to where we want to be in a reasonable number of years. SPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.  However,  transparency, elections and the willingness to actively discuss issues are needed to achieve that.

QuoteSPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.

Are you kidding me?

Quote from: zoo on November 07, 2008, 04:02:58 PM

QuoteSPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.

Are you kidding me?

So, you don't think they can?  I guess I am guestioning if some of the board even wants to, but I believe SPAR Council as an organization can and has in the past.  Of course, I am talking about helping the entire community....

Honestly, Strider, I'm just getting a bit tired of the whole "community was progressing so great when we were in charge" bit. Granted, I've only been here since 2005, but when I showed up, the place still looked like hell. In the three years I have been here, there has been great positive change, in my experience for anyone that wanted to be involved (and this is your sticking point).

Since 2005, I have attended many meetings of SPAR and SAMBA, and many community events sponsored by the Mommies Group, SACARC, SRG, SIA/WC, residents, etc. Yet in that time, I never met you or sheclown. I met the SPAR boardmembers. I met the SAMBA boardmembers. I met many of the residents and businessowners. All were very welcoming to me (but you'll probably say that's because I'm white and earn a bit of money to spend/contribute, or because I'm such a simpleton, I just jumped behind their cause/methods). I met Stephen Dare, and yes, I met one or two of the others that attended your first 3 Layers meeting. But in those 3 years, and at all of those meetings, you weren't there.

It is garbage that the community is worse off for these organizations, and all of the hard work they have been doing in recent years, just because you weren't involved/leading/giving your input. Now maybe some of the orgs work was made possible by groundwork laid by HSCC, or the old SPAR, or whomever. I thank them for the early work, as I know it was every bit as difficult as work being done now.

We will have to disagree on when the community began to get "better", and we will have to disagree on our versions of what better is. To me, and to many (I guess this will come down to a contest of numbers in the end), better is now.

Step in, have a voice, attempt to make your version of positive change - I welcome it. The more people doing things for the community the better. But don't presume the community will jump on your bandwagon, and that SPAR should do the same. You can attack me if you want (and I expect if from sheclown) but I'm done with this thread.

See you on the 20th.

It seems that if all the time and effort spent arguing over which group is better than the other was spent in buying and rehabbing buildings in Springfield, things would be a lot farther along than they are now.

Quote from: stephendare on March 29, 2008, 11:25:02 AM
As a rule I stay out of SPAR politics...

Ahhh, if only.

Quote from: RiversideGator on November 08, 2008, 12:05:24 AM
It seems that if all the time and effort spent arguing over which group is better than the other was spent in buying and rehabbing buildings in Springfield, things would be a lot farther along than they are now.

The people who are 'arguing' are in fact residents, who have either bought and fixed up or purchased a new home...and we're all the ones who have donated countless volunteer hours towards the betterment of Springfield and continue doing so. We're the ones who know how much it's changed, we're the ones who have poured our heart and souls, not to mention money, labor and ongoing effort into making this a real turn-around neighborhood.

Springfield has come a long, long way and as a whole, is much, much better than it once was 10 years ago. We still have some issues, but overall, this has turned into a great neighborhood, the crime has been reduced greatly and comments such as yours are ones made by people who really haven't a clue as to how much this area has changed.

Springfield politics is a year round thanks giving diner party  :D :D :D

Quote from: fatcat on November 08, 2008, 08:58:59 AM
Springfield politics is a year round thanks giving diner party  :D :D :D

SOOOO TRUE!

I just don’t get the argument here. The base issue is voting. Why would anyone argue about the right of members to vote, vs. the board just appointing members?

I personally could care less what went on 10 yrs ago (or whenever), but why take away the members voice? I personally did not renew my membership, and if it is determined SPAR does not change their mind about the wording mandating voting by the membership, and start following their own by-laws I will not renew my membership. I don't think SPAR cares, since they are obviously getting enough money from other places, but it may also impact my volunteerism to their programs too. I am not against anything else per se, but this needs to be fixed, and doesn't really seem like something to be argued over.

I joined SPAR not too long ago, seems like I have a lot to look forward too! I love drama.

Zoo made a couple of comments about how bad Springfield was in 2005 and how much better it is today. Let's see, what was main street like in 2005?  Was Boomtown still there?  Was Epicurean still open?  I do know that not too long before that, you could safely walk at night from 9th and Main to the Springfield Cafe(?) at Main and 5th.  You could, if you did it early enough, buy a gift at The Springfield Emporium, Catch dinner at the Epicurean and then go get a drink at Boomtown and then, if you were really brave, go get entertained at Eden.

But of course, the older organizations that apparently only laid some ground work had nothing to do with this.  And of course, are at fault for the fact that for years now, that same stretch of Main looks like a waste land?  See, Zoo’s statement "but when I showed up, the place still looked like hell" isn't exactly true.  It may have "looked like hell" again, but not still. 

Now, I guess I could blame the huge step backward that Main Street took a few years ago on SPAR Council, but I know that would not be fair.  There were many reasons.  Truthfully, I am not sure if SPAR Council has the answers to fix the problem and I am concerned about whether they are looking in the right places, but the issue is not one that can be fixed easily by any one organization or developer or anyone for that matter.

But I do believe it is important to insure that if a local organization says that commercial development is their goal and they also say they represent the entire community, then they sure as H...eck should at least give the entire community the chance to be heard. And a chance at being among those who make the decisions.

This statement: On the other hand, I don't think that any of this will "solve" anything. Even back in the "glory days" when Stider and his "developer" buddies were running things, people were tripping over themselves to tell me how bad/useless SPAR was. Including many of the same people that are now posting about how great things used to be.

Besides being so far from the truth that the poster obviously  has no grip on reality, it also helps make the point that a select few are doing their best to minimize this issue and maximize the point that a couple of us are not very well liked by some in this community.  Odd that a couple of people on “our” side in this were among the most obviously against “us” before.  A common problem can bring people together that would not otherwise work together.  But ignore that part of this, it has no business here.

I never ran anything when it came to nieghborhood organizations.  I have no clue what “developer buddies”  he is talking about.  There were none.  I simply was an elected member of a board.  I did what was needed, but many more had been doing much more before I came along.  SPAR was in trouble.  HSCC was strong.  A merger happened.  HSCC and SPAR ceased to exist and now we have SPAR Council.  Or at least we are supposed to have.  Not SPAR, not HSCC, but SPAR Council.  With an elected board. That actually follows it’s own by-laws.  It is that what we are asking for again today.  Doesn’t seem like too much to expect.

Yup. I clearly have no grip on reality.

Its almost like if I believed halfway houses, detox centers, and empty store fronts are GREAT for the community and that Louise, Jack, and Mack are baaaaad for the community.

That would be a weird thing to believe.

Moderators there are. Only I have not yet begun to defile myself. A bottle of rum and a 5th of Rebel Yell later, someone else  can kill the bury that did we... HIC!

HEE HEE

My busy with railroads ande trens de Jacksonville Y mi cuidad.

OCKLAWAHA

Another moderator is also now here...and personal insults and attacks will not be tolerated. If they continue, the posts will be removed. If you cannot discuss this issue without making it a personal assault upon another, then don't bother posting.

no blood, no foul.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 10, 2008, 04:03:32 PM
I wasnt aware there were any personal attacks, aside from the emails I get from Stephen. I am speaking specifically to the issues. Sorry if you dont agree with my take on it.

Why assume my warning and/or request to keep the personal assaults out of the posts, were directed at you

I am in favor of having elections and an open organization. I have asked that the topic of elections be added on tonight's SPAR Board agenda. The meeting is at 7pm and open to the public.
My recommendation to the full board will be to hold elections as originally outlined in the Articles of Incorporation. Nominations on Jan 15, 2009 and elections on Feb 19, 2009.

I am one of those who deeply respect his stance, and thank him for all of his hard work and effort!

Basically, that's all I want also, to have SPAR more open and to have the elections....I'm not wanting to get rid of anyone, I'm not wanting to see the organization fall apart. It needs to be more responsive to the community as a whole, and that includes holding elections and not all appointments. Let the membership have that input.

Quote from: strider on November 10, 2008, 01:13:49 PM
Besides being so far from the truth that the poster obviously  has no grip on reality, it also helps make the point that a select few are doing their best to minimize this issue and maximize the point that a couple of us are not very well liked by some in this community.

I personally dont care if you are liked, or not liked. Your full of bluster (among other things) and pissed about the hoops you had to jump through last year. It would no doubt make you a happy, happy man to be able to pass a little pain back along to SPAR, and those who back SPAR.

QuoteOdd that a couple of people on “our” side in this were among the most obviously against “us” before.  A common problem can bring people together that would not otherwise work together.  But ignore that part of this, it has no business here.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Nothing more, nothing less. Those few people "on your side" havent exactly come out and said "I love halfway houses, there should be one on every corner" you are a means to an end. Change, or pain for SPAR. Eitherway, cool.

QuoteI never ran anything when it came to nieghborhood organizations.  I have no clue what “developer buddies”  he is talking about.  There were none.

Really? What was Castles of Jacksonville? Glory Homes? Did you guys not build a couple of new homes? Were you not one of the few listed contractors on the list of approved contractors for those who applied for the SHARP grant?

Quote...Not SPAR, not HSCC, but SPAR Council.  With an elected board. That actually follows it’s own by-laws.  It is that what we are asking for again today.  Doesn’t seem like too much to expect.

So are you going to join in order to vote when the elections are held?

Quote from: downtownparks on November 10, 2008, 09:59:01 PM
I just wonder if Strider or Stephen will join the organization so they can cast a vote....

Do you mean to say that, after all the talk, Stephen is not even a SPAR member? 

Well I let my membership expire, since I couldn't really have any input the way things were, I figured why join?

Anyway, AlexS has captured the root of the issue, I thank him for his service, and he truly listens, cares, and takes the best away from every discussion. THANK YOU!

I did not go to the meeting, and may not attend any others, as it is apparent (to me) that bringing up complaints or concerns about SPAR gets you one thing....recriminations and lectures. I think SRG, Meeks, and Louise have all done good things for this neighborhood. I think there are even more individuals that have done wonderful things for this neighborhood that are never mentioned nor recognized. (How about a certain feisty lady on 7th who organizes some HUGE parties/events for the hood???) Or another cool chick off of Walnut that can tell you the history of every scrap of wood in the neighborhood? Or perhaps the residents of Hamsterdam who monitor and maintain our borders, keeping the rest of us safe at their own risk? (Go Hampsterdam!!!)

It is sad really, that there are some in this neighborhood that let their personal issues get in the way of progress. SPAR exists because of the neighborhood, no neighborhood, no SPAR. The neighborhood exists because of the residents, no residents, no neighborhood (the neighborhood does not exist because of SPAR; this is what seems to get lost...). It seems it would be natural that the residents, in the neighborhood, should be able to voice complaints, concerns, and have an overall voice in the neighborhood if they so choose (not all will, some will want to go to the cocktail parties and that is it) without being beat up every time.

Just bring back the vote, make a more open organization so members understand the limitations and authority of the organization (this alone will cut back on half of your perceived attacks), but first and foremost quit beating up on the residents that are concerned and do care. Work should be done to bring these same people into the fold; they actually care and are willing to work for the neighborhood....no matter your personal issues.

Uptowngirl, you voiced almost verbatim, how I feel. I also let my membership lapse, as I find it a waste of money, when my voice (vote) has been silenced. I totally agree with everything you said, and I feel that it's also the way many of the neighbors feel, even if they don't voice their views.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 09:46:37 AM
Its very apparent that Downtown Parks only motivation was to come on this thread and sling mud at his neighbors while gnawing old bones.

Actually, DTP is back on the boards because a couple of his neighbors talked to him at a SPR cocktail party, thanked him from hooking them with the MetroJacksonville crowd as it has made them most happy, and said that they missed having another Springfield voice on the forum boards.

We do not all have to agree, but we do all have to be civil.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 10:11:23 AM
I do hope that one of them has a crisp new dollar in her purse for later on tonight however.

I don't get that remark. Can you explain ?

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 09:46:37 AM
Its very apparent that Downtown Parks only motivation was to come on this thread and sling mud at his neighbors while gnawing old bones.

DTP came to last nights board meeting to support what I was trying to do. I appreciate that. He also wants elections and SPAR to be open. Thanks DTP.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 10:36:15 AM
So how did it go last night AlexS?

The wording below is from my recollection and does not reflect the official minutes taken.
A motion was made by Gerry that the governance committee present a plan when to have elections and details about it at the next board meeting. The motion carried 8:1. (Alex was against it).
Alex made a motion to have nominations on Jan 15, 2009 and elections on Feb. 19, 2009 (as written in the Articles of Incorporation). The motion was defeated 3:6 or 2:7. (Lisa and Alex supported it, unclear about Derek).
I felt the majority wanted to wait and hear the input from the Q&A session on Nov. 20 before laying out a definite plan.

It shouldn't matter what happens at the meeting on the 20th, they need to abide by the bylaws.

I also still have issue with the make up of the governance board, all self appointed members of the executive board, isn't it?

Nothing else was on the agenda to be discussed.
I also plan on making suggestions on how to align FL statutes, Articles of Incorporations and Bylaws and remove some contradictions. This will be done by proposing amendments to the Bylaws. Once every thing is aligned and less ambiguous it will be much easier to follow. Currently there is much room for various interpretations of the text. I was hoping to get that done for the board meeting yesterday, but due to work commitments could not get it ready in time.

I apologize to ALexS that I missed the meeting as I told him I would be there.  A business issue came up and had to be dealt with.

Quote from: AlexS on November 11, 2008, 10:53:41 AM

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 10:36:15 AM
So how did it go last night AlexS?

The wording below is from my recollection and does not reflect the official minutes taken.
A motion was made by Gerry that the governance committee present a plan when to have elections and details about it at the next board meeting. The motion carried 8:1. (Alex was against it).
Alex made a motion to have nominations on Jan 15, 2009 and elections on Feb. 19, 2009 (as written in the Articles of Incorporation). The motion was defeated 3:6 or 2:7. (Lisa and Alex supported it, unclear about Derek).
I felt the majority wanted to wait and hear the input from the Q&A session on Nov. 20 before laying out a definite plan.

I firmly believe that this is a result of the "bad press" - the discussions on this forum as well as others.  It is why people should speak up when they see an organization do something that is not in the best interests of the community it serves. It does sound like they may actually have elections sometime in the next few months.  That is progress as I do believe that elections would not have occurred this year at all without a group of people speaking out.  This group does very importantly include Alex and Lisa as board members who cared enough to listen and act.

I do wonder how they expect input from the Q & A session when all questions had to be submitted in advance.  Normally that type of arrangement does not allow for input from the floor and that is exactly how it was being described by the President. So, does this mean that they have decided to open this meeting up as a true discussion?  If so, KUDOs to them.

QuoteI also plan on making suggestions on how to align FL statutes, Articles of Incorporations and Bylaws and remove some contradictions. This will be done by proposing amendments to the Bylaws. Once every thing is aligned and less ambiguous it will be much easier to follow. Currently there is much room for various interpretations of the text.

And that should be the next step. It will be required to insure that the community regains and retains it's voice in the future actions of SPAR Council. 

Quote from: stephendare on November 10, 2008, 05:23:34 PM

Quote from: AlexS on November 10, 2008, 05:16:48 PM
I am in favor of having elections and an open organization. I have asked that the topic of elections be added on tonight's SPAR Board agenda. The meeting is at 7pm and open to the public.
My recommendation to the full board will be to hold elections as originally outlined in the Articles of Incorporation. Nominations on Jan 15, 2009 and elections on Feb 19, 2009.

Thanks Alex.  You are a good guy, and have consistently been a diplomat and mediator since this thread reincarnated.

Your spirit of leadership is appreciated and admired by many.

Agreed.  I would also add the word "brave" to the description.

Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2008, 09:46:37 AM
No.  Im not a SPAR member.  Why should I be, and what opinions do you think I havent backed up with actions and example?

I used to be, and I was on the board.

But SPAR hasnt represented my interests for a while.

In any case, River, as a resident of Riverside, why are you weighing in on this at all except to insert mischief as a result of no one speaking to you on the national politics board?

I have family ties to Springfield and a great interest in seeing its revival.  It is as simple as that. 

I find the drama there to be strange and counterproductive.  I think people should stop worrying about what others think and do and should instead get to work on making the entire neighborhood better one house and one building at a time.  There is enough success to go around if you work hard so no need to tear someone else down.

I'm not sure what drama here in Springfield to be strange or counterproductive. I'm left to assume that you're talking about the issue with SPAR. If that's what you're talking about, we have every right to stand up and speak our minds, this is a neighborhood organization and it was working towards shutting out our voices...which is wrong.

Now as for those of us that actually live here, the ones that are active, we most certainly do work on improving the area and have all along. As for working one house, one building at a time...that's all well and good, depending on what you think we should be doing. I know for myself, that I've been active since I moved here 10+ years ago, but that doesn't include doing what neglectful or absentee owners are responsible for.

I assume I don't need to point out the irony of your accusing someone of being narcissistic.

Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2008, 09:32:05 AM
For example, you would think that a cooperative renovation and restoration group would have available experts and tools for rent for the DIY community that built both neighborhoods back to livable.   RAP always provided this, in fact I rented my first drum sander and learned how to use it from RAP.

I think that's a great idea.
Do you know any available experts who would be willing to volunteer ?
Any ideas on how to finance these tools ? Are there any grants for this kind of thing ?
Any ideas about someone who could help with obtaining a cooperative loan to finance such a DIY project ?

Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2008, 09:32:05 AM
Well thanks River for saying something so true that it contradicts your previous statements and intent.

Let us proceed forward on the effort then.

Having been a member of RAP for a few years from 1987-1991, and having renovated a structure or two in the area, I can tell you that in no way does SPAR resemble the brilliant example set by RAP.

Part of that is because the springfield neighborhood faced significantly different issues than Riverside, as ghetto as Riverside had managed to become by the mid 80s.

For example, you would think that a cooperative renovation and restoration group would have available experts and tools for rent for the DIY community that built both neighborhoods back to livable.   RAP always provided this, in fact I rented my first drum sander and learned how to use it from RAP.

A community patrol or neighborhood safety watch seems like it would be a natural idea, and again RAP provided those things based on volunteers back in the early days.  SPAR on the other hand apparently spends 100 grand or thereabouts with heavy subsidy from one of the local residential developers to purchase security guards.

RAP encouraged the spread of CPTED ideas in order to cut crime.  (Crime Prevention Through Environmental Design)  simple common sense rules significantly cut crime in Five Points, and they are the very same ideas that John Allen and I implemented when we opened Boomtown.

RAP provided 'this old house' style seminars for renovationists as well as historical lectures about the structures and architecture of the neighborhood, as well as having the specialty tools necessary for such work available for free to members.

This is how you improve a neighborhood one structure at a time, one house at a time with the contributions coming in from volunteer memberships.

When it came time for large Riverside infrastructure improvement projects, the neighborhood groups plus RAP worked together to put together a plan and garnered the support of Ginny Myrick, the councilwoman for Riverside/San Marco before the districts changed.  She was a renovationist and a very tasteful woman to boot and the two neighborhoods made sure that their representative reflected the needs and values of the neighborhood.

Thus the Duck Pond renovations, the improvements to Boone Park, the CPTED work that was done in the Five Points neighborhood in 1990, the resurfacing of the roads and the groundwork for the renovation of Park and King was completed.  In fact, I attended all of the Charettes for both Park and King and Five Points when Ted Pappas announced the effort back at the time.

As a result, RAP's strategy was not completely dependent on developer money and city largesse in order to be realized.

However, with no criticism intended, this is the situation that SPAR finds itself in right now, exactly as the economy crashes with developers snuffing out like candles left and right and a significant portion of the neighborhood funded by the exact type of loans that catalyzed the economic crisis.

While the Obama Administration will be pumping cash into the cities, is there anyone thinking forward to how best to utilize this money?

I think waiting on Obama to send $$ to Springfield is the wrong idea.  Grass roots local efforts always work better than federal efforts.

And, I do understand that Springfield fell much farther than did Riverside so it has a different set of problems but the principles of self-reliance together with community activism will work.  It just takes time but not forever.  Just 10 years ago, Riverside was in significantly worse shape than it is now.  But through a lot of hard work and cooperation with the JSO, Riverside has made major strides.  Springfield can do the same so long as people continue to work at it and minimize the interpersonal conflicts and drama.

That is assuming Riverside is in better shape that Springfield...I think that is debateable. I think Riverside may have more commercial business, but not sure it is any better in any other way. In fact I would be willing to argue if it is safer or not..... ;D

Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2008, 09:32:05 AM
A community patrol or neighborhood safety watch seems like it would be a natural idea, and again RAP provided those things based on volunteers back in the early days.  SPAR on the other hand apparently spends 100 grand or thereabouts with heavy subsidy from one of the local residential developers to purchase security guards.

The details about this SPAR program can be found at the link below. They are off duty JSO officers and not security guards.
http://www.sparcouncil.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4151
SPAR is the organizer of the crime fund. How much or how little every one donates is up to the individual donors. It is restricted donation money which has to be paid out to the JSO officers.
I personally don't see anything wrong for a residential developer to donate large amounts for additional security. It is better for the developer and better for the community. A win-win situation. One crook off the street no matter where in SPR is one less who can do harm. After all it does not matter where they are caught, as we all know they roam around.
I would also prefer that JSO would take care of all the criminals in the area and be proactive. Maybe one day we won't need a security fund or Shadco meeting, but today I believe we still do and it's a good thing we have it.
Why would anyone have an issue or not appreciate if someone else donates their money to make the neighborhood a better place ?

OK, AlexS, I'll bite.

The security fund exists only because SRG benefited in some way.  Whether it made the "donation" more credible for tax purposes rather than just spending the money on security as a business expense or some larger benefit, I do not know.   There was a reason they wanted it to be run through a non-profit.  You know what?  That's perfectly OK.  Absolutely nothing wrong with that.  As long as the fund is there to help everyone in the community.  There has been some discussion that it has not been.  Some have suggested that it was run in a way that had the extra officers only in areas that SRG wanted them in.  That means some areas of Springfield never saw the extra efforts.  There seems to be either an inability to come up with proof of this one way or the other or just a lack of proof exists. I don't really know. I do know that the apparent resistance of the executive board on some fronts indicate they either want to hide something or just don't care if the information gets out or not.  All that attitude does is fuel more fear that they are up to something and causes mistrust of things like the security fund.

You asked what's wrong with a developer donating money?  Nothing.  As long as everyone in the community recognizes that there is something in it for the business that makes the donation or they would not do it. A business does not spend it's money to go find a better tax donation credit only to not partake of it themselves.  Again, nothing wrong with that, but everyone must realize that it would not have been done if the business didn’t benefit from it. And like some people often do, sometimes businesses that make those donations expect something extra in return.   If the organizations give that extra to the businesses, it’s bad on them, for the business is just doing what it should do and watching out for it’s bottom line.  What I have said all along is that the community's best interests may not be served by the same thing as what is best for a particular company's bottom line.  Which is why there should be some amount of distance between those businesses and the community organizations.

me too me too me too  ;D

I would be very happy to volunteer.  I have worked on many of these houses and love talking about them.  I think having workshops would be a great idea. 

For the record, Riverside is safer than Springfield in general. However, each has their own areas that aren't very nice and neither is as safe as Avondale or San Marco. Neither is overly dangerous though either.

Historic Springfield is quite safe, and I don't agree with your 'for the record'....the majority of what's reported as happening here in Historic Springfield, isn't. Actually, there's very little crime that happens in this square mile neighborhood.

For the record.  Crime is significantly lower in Springfield than in Riverside.  I know that's hard to believe for people that watch the news about a shooting in "Springfield" that was acutally at 30th and Main.  I pulled the crime data recently.  Look it up online at www.coj.net 

After my family sent me crime stats on the 32206 zip code, that compared to Newark, NJ I did some digging around on my own and came to the realization, that just as Alta said, there is very little crime inside Springfield.  I guess it is just the surrounding areas that make Springfield seem unsafe.  It does seem though, that since I have been on this forum that a lot of crime has been happening in Riverside.  But maybe that is just a perception issue.

Off topic, but I am very excited to say that we finally have a move date in which we will be moving to Springfield!  I am looking forward to being a part of the community and this forum has really helped me learn a lot about Jacksonville before our move.

Michelle

Just to add to this discussion, there is a thread about appointments and such in the SPAR Council Board part of the forum that brought up the fact that the current President, Secretary and one other board member were elected in 2005 and so their terms were up this past October.   This means that technically, they are not legally on the SPAR Council board anymore - since the elections that were supposed to be held in October were not held at all.  Nor is there any evidence that they have been appointed back on the board by the board.  So at least two key members of the current administration  should not be conducting SPAR Council business.  And this even by the “new and improved” by-laws passed in June, 2008. Interesting, no?

I find it quite interesting....and it all seems to tie into them not having elections...until of course, those of us that have spoken up about it

Did anyone understand the recent SPAR news letter?

Circumstances beyond anyone’s control have resulted in a delay of the question and answer session scheduled for next week. A close family member of SPAR President, Claude XXXX, is ill and has been hospitalized. Additionally, Jack XXX has been required to be out of town for several days, and cannot be available for the meeting. Given the situation, there will not be a General Meeting in November. The SPAR Open House, where the community is invited replaces the December meeting, therefore the Question & Answer session will be re-scheduled for January 2009. As you are aware, the election, appointment of additional board members etc. is being reviewed by the Governance Committee. Work is still being done. We apologize for having to postpone the Q&A Session but invite you to continue to submit questions.

Huh? Isn't this the same reasons we couldn't have the October meeting? Now we wait until Jan 09????!!!

Then this piece...what the heck does this mean????!!!

Here’s a sample question received by the SPAR Office:

Q: What would I do if I wanted to open a rooming house in Springfield?

A: One strategy would be to undermine SPAR, an organization that is actively working to prevent any new rooming houses from opening in the historic district.

That's a crock, and they know it....if the questions had to be submitted prior to the meeting, then what difference does it make who of the board is there? They've had plenty of time to get their answers together, and present them. Plus, I'm sure they're picking the questions they want to answer.

As for that sample of questions...I agree...huh? I can't think of anyone who would've submitted a question like that...and their answer isn't very professional...isn't there already an ordinance or whatever in place, to prevent any new places from opening? So that's a non-issue and certainly not one that pertains to what's happening....such as the changing of bylaws, appointments without elections...etc...

While I appreciate the ever warm and glowing praise from such a man of character, the question had nothing to do with me. I am not a board member, I have nothing to do with the weekly update, and aside from going to Mondays meeting to back up Alex, I have had no communication with anyone of note.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 14, 2008, 08:58:05 PM
While I appreciate the ever warm and glowing praise from such a man of character, the question had nothing to do with me. I am not a board member, I have nothing to do with the weekly update, and aside from going to Mondays meeting to back up Alex, I have had no communication with anyone of note.

I am note sure who or what this is in reference too? I have only seen two women post wuestions about the weekly update?

It would be my guess that considering some of who is involved in this tread that someones posts have been deleted....

You are correct. It was suggested by "certain posters" that the question was my doing.


It was not.

If posts were deleted...just for the record...it wasn't by me. And also for the record...I don't believe that you, DTP, or anyone really submitted that question. I feel it's a ploy to try and throw the real issue off track, especially with the latest turn of events.

Quote from: soxfan on November 15, 2008, 08:41:26 AM
It would be my guess that considering some of who is involved in this tread that someones posts have been deleted....

Every member has the ability to delete their own posts.

 

QuoteCircumstances beyond anyone’s control have resulted in a delay of the question and answer session scheduled for next week. A close family member of SPAR President, Claude XXXX, is ill and has been hospitalized. Additionally, Jack XXX has been required to be out of town for several days, and cannot be available for the meeting. Given the situation, there will not be a General Meeting in November. The SPAR Open House, where the community is invited replaces the December meeting, therefore the Question & Answer session will be re-scheduled for January 2009. As you are aware, the election, appointment of additional board members etc. is being reviewed by the Governance Committee. Work is still being done. We apologize for having to postpone the Q&A Session but invite you to continue to submit questions.

So, just to sort of set the record straight, this important meeting (that some of us were basically told to cool it until the meeting occurred) has been postponed for the sake of having Claude, the acting president and Jack, the acting chair of the Governance committee, be able to attend this meeting.  If one actually wanted to have this Q&A session occur in a timely fashion (as one would expect for such an important meeting), one could, of course, schedule a special meeting as the by-laws allow. 

Which of course, brings up the by-laws.  Over on the SPAR Council's own forum, it had been disclosed that technically, per the by-laws, Jack Meeks was not legally appointed.  Also, as Claude Moulton was elected in 2005, his term on the board has expired.  So, what we have here is a very important meeting being postponed so that two people who are not even legally on the board can attend.  Oh, and did you catch this: "the election, appointment of additional board members", sort of saying, elections? Ya, right!  Just freakin' hilarious!

Then we have "THE" sample question and, hey, even a sample answer.

QuoteQ: What would I do if I wanted to open a rooming house in Springfield?

A: One strategy would be to undermine SPAR, an organization that is actively working to prevent any new rooming houses from opening in the historic district.

I get the giggles every time I think of "them" sitting down and actually putting that in print.  It is just too hilarious for words. And I just can't find the right "smiley face" that it deserves.

I have a sample question and answer too:

QUESTION: If you are illegally on the Board of Directors of an organization and do not want to give up your seat for some reason that only you and a few cronies know about, what would you do?

ANSWER: Postpone elections indefinitely, ignore the by-laws, keep your membership in the dark as much as possible and attack any who would have the audacity to call you out on it.

We've seen one answer (albeit irrelevant).  Are there anymore?

Perhaps one about the missing election?  The illegal appointments?  The expanding terms of office?

How about the by-law changes?  Uptowngirl, were answers to any of these in the newsletter?

I'm not UTG...but I can answer that...NO

ah...yeah...problem is...you never can tell if any given thing is destined to blow over or blow up. 

I think it's a good idea to post each question and their responses. The forum would be an ideal place for it. Not only would this allow for everyone to know what's been asked, but to have a response from the board. Since the questions had to be submitted, that tells me that they want to have prior knowledge and prepared answers.

I would venture to say, that the reason the questions haven't been posted and or answered on the spar forum, update and/or newsletter...

• It would mean actually intending to respond to them.
• Having their answers made public

The only question which has been answered was a sarcastic attempt to discredit members of this community, members who have a right to question the authority of this community development corporation. 
[/b]

Okay SPAR Council, now that you've gotten that off your chest, how about getting real?

(http://oldtoolsforsale.com/smiley3/haha6.gif) Thanks, my monitor now has coffee on it!

Well I was aksed to give them the benefit of the doubt (which I did) and then this... Is Barbara even allowed on the board? Her term is up, she has no business here in the neighborhood, she does not live in the neighborhood, and I have as yet seen one single skill she has to offer (was previously told she was an attorney whcih is false), and instigation she seems to follow her every post/writing/email. In fact the only thing I see she has going for her is her friendship with the executive director.

Note to SPAR: Time to clean house... and you have started out this mission on the WRONG path.

I couldn't agree with you more....B. Sweet was appointed as a business seat on the board in 2005. It would seem that her term is up. There's also others, who have reached the end of their term, and I've yet to see a notice by spar, letting us know what seats are open so that those interested could toss their hats into the ring. But of course, that would mean holding an election and of course that opens up the possibility of losing their hold over the board and it's actions. Oh, and let's not forget that they selected a governance board...made up of themselves...hello...does that offer credibility to how this organization's been running?

"There's also others, who have reached the end of their term, and I've yet to see a notice by spar, letting us know what seats are open so that those interested could toss their hats into the ring."

  So.....Who are the interested candidates, and, what are their qualifications.

Wouldn't it be more helpful to actually have a listing of what positions are open and what qualifications are needed before anyone wants to announce they'd like to run for them? But of course, that would require spar to do the right thing, by listing openings and actually holding an election, instead of the select few making appointments.

Besides that, the executive board made up the governance committee, of themselves....and aren't they the ones who are supposed to oversee applicants? So isn't it their responsibility also, to let the neighborhood and or membership know of openings and what, if any, qualifications are expected of applicants to meet? Hell, they haven't even decided to hold elections...which should've been held by now.

Quote from: uptowngirl on November 16, 2008, 07:33:33 AM
Well I was aksed to give them the benefit of the doubt (which I did) and then this... Is Barbara even allowed on the board? Her term is up, she has no business here in the neighborhood, she does not live in the neighborhood, and I have as yet seen one single skill she has to offer (was previously told she was an attorney whcih is false), and instigation she seems to follow her every post/writing/email. In fact the only thing I see she has going for her is her friendship with the executive director.

Note to SPAR: Time to clean house... and you have started out this mission on the WRONG path.

[/i]

What happened to her title company that rented space in the SPAR building?  Did that close or did it move?

Quote from: jbm32206 on November 16, 2008, 09:01:58 AM
Wouldn't it be more helpful to actually have a listing of what positions are open and what qualifications are needed before anyone wants to announce they'd like to run for them? But of course, that would require spar to do the right thing, by listing openings and actually holding an election, instead of the select few making appointments.

Besides that, the executive board made up the governance committee, of themselves....and aren't they the ones who are supposed to oversee applicants? So isn't it their responsibility also, to let the neighborhood and or membership know of openings and what, if any, qualifications are expected of applicants to meet? Hell, they haven't even decided to hold elections...which should've been held by now.

I agree that elections need to be held and the bylaws need to be followed and not changed without the memberships approval. On that I agree.
 
  That said, I'm just trying to find out if you folks really have anybody that wants to volunteer their time to the SPAR board or do ya'll just love to listen to yourselves about how you are advocating the "truth and justice" for all sentiment.

Quote02roadking: I'm just trying to find out if you folks really have anybody that wants to volunteer their time to the SPAR board or do ya'll just love to listen to yourselves about how you are advocating the "truth and justice" for all sentiment.

First of all, I think this goes beyond people just wanting to listen to themselves and advocating for truth and justice...and I find that rather insulting to those of us, (myself included) who have been out spoken about the wrong doings of the spar board.

There's nothing wrong with speaking up and we certainly have every right to do so. I refuse to sit back silently and allow that to happen. It's a shame that others will and are allowing it to happen...but that's one's choice. If it bothers you or anyone else to 'listen' then don't...simple as that. Nobody is forcing anyone to read this thread (and the others on other forums) If you, or anyone else has a differing opinion, then of course, that's their choice as to whether or not to join in on the discussion or start their own thread(s)

Along those lines, if you or anyone else is content with how things are being handled, content with the board changing bylaws to suit their agenda, to do away with the need for members to participate in electing members of the board, then silence is of course what will allow that to continue. However, if you or anyone else is not happy with how the board changed the bylaws or how the board had not made public any positions available and have not held an election when there should certainly be one, then speaking up is the right option.

I, for one and there are several others...who are not at all happy with the manner in which the bylaws were changed. Not happy at all with no elections. Not at all happy that the executive board appointed only their own members to serve on this governance committee, which is to oversee positions available for the board and who they will deem qualified to even run for any open positions. It's all extremely prejudice and slanted. This, IMO, is not working together with the membership, nor the community in which this organization is supposed to be serving. They self appoint, they decide how the bylaws will meet their needs/wants and the membership and community are no longer a part of the mix. This is wrong and anyone with good conscience knows it.

Thanks for the answer to my question. ;)

You bet  :)

Jbm32206, your post was an excellant response to that quote. Just to go one step further:

There have been some good people willing to run for SPAR Council office.  At the last election, a few good people did and a couple did get elected and a couple did not.  Then there was an outcry over possible election discrepancies. To be honest, that seemed to be somewhat reasonably explained away.  However, the recent lack of elections, the lack of willingness to follow the by-laws at all and now the executive board basically slapping the membership in the face has given huge credibility to the fact that the complaints over the last election were valid.  In the face of this, I'm not sure anyone has bothered to really consider whether they would be willing to run or not. Why would they when it has become obvious that even if the elections were to be held, the final outcome may very well be predetermined.

The Executive Director made the argument to me for appointments that they actually had a good marketing person on the ballot a couple of elections ago and she did not get elected.  I took her meaning to be that only by appointments could "they" get the people they wanted.  I have been to a recent board meeting and it very much seemed to me that if a board member did not want to follow the "party line", then they were belittled and , in one case, almost physically threatened.  It did not make me want to run for a board position.  Not unless I can see at least a willingness to listen and make the proper changes to insure the voice of the entire community will be listened too.

We have been asking for changes and a willingness to be open to both phrase and dissension.  It is time to ask for more.  The current executive board is half made up of people who are not even legally on the SPAR Council board at this point.  Then look at the Governance Committee that is charged with the setting up and running of elections.  This  is the committee that illegally determined that no elections were needed and it is also mostly made up of those same people who are not legally on the Board at this point.

It is time to call for those people to step down.  Let the rest of the board set up elections and I do believe you will see more than enough candidates to fill the open positions.  Good, qualified people who have the best interests of the entire community at heart.  It is what is needed.  It is what is right.

You guys are killin me.... :D

Quote from: 02roadking on November 16, 2008, 11:12:49 AM
You guys are killin me.... :D

Dude, what is your friging point???

Does that mean the old saying's true...truth hurts.... :o

Quote from: deportman on November 16, 2008, 11:32:10 AM

Quote from: 02roadking on November 16, 2008, 11:12:49 AM
You guys are killin me.... :D

Dude, what is your friging point???

I was not making a point. I just asked a question and I got a stump speech. That's all.
     

Quote from: 02roadking on November 16, 2008, 09:51:15 AM
 
I agree that elections need to be held and the bylaws need to be followed and not changed without the memberships approval. On that I agree.
 
  That said, I'm just trying to find out if you folks really have anybody that wants to volunteer their time to the SPAR board or do ya'll just love to listen to yourselves about how you are advocating the "truth and justice" for all sentiment.

It was the last part of this statement which was taken as offensive and sort of negated the first part.

So, to answer the first part of this statement (from "That said..." to "...SPAR board") the answer is yes, there is talent out there ready, willing and able.  But, the important point here is that most all posters have supported the people currently in power.  They are just dissatisfied with the way the power has been handled recently.  They have questions.

As to the second part of this statement....as Deportman stated "what's the friggin point?"

Quote from: 02roadking on November 16, 2008, 12:34:38 PM

Quote from: deportman on November 16, 2008, 11:32:10 AM

Quote from: 02roadking on November 16, 2008, 11:12:49 AM
You guys are killin me.... :D

Dude, what is your friging point???

I was not making a point. I just asked a question and I got a stump speech. That's all.
     

Here is the non-stump speech.

There are people who would be willing to run and sit on the board, but not if they get the crappy treatment others have when they want the board to follow it's own rules.

There are/were plenty of people on the board that have tried to do the right thing and have been verbally attacked and/or back stabbed for supporting the boards own rules. From what I understand from several former board members it is a complete joke.

Why in the world would anyone want to sit on a board with some fo the people who want to do what they want to do period? They will not listen, will not budge, and then send out an email written by someone not even ELIGIBLE to be on OUR board, which does not make sense, and is just a swipe at certain people <she> and her friends do not like.

Personally who cares, I don't anymore.... I will sit back and watch and laugh as they lose more and more face not only with the neighborhood, but with the city, and LISC too.

I was not making a point. I just asked a question and I got a stump speech. That's all.
     

[/quote]

Here is the non-stump speech.

There are people who would be willing to run and sit on the board, but not if they get the crappy treatment others have when they want the board to follow it's own rules.

There are/were plenty of people on the board that have tried to do the right thing and have been verbally attacked and/or back stabbed for supporting the boards own rules. From what I understand from several former board members it is a complete joke.

Why in the world would anyone want to sit on a board with some fo the people who want to do what they want to do period? They will not listen, will not budge, and then send out an email written by someone not even ELIGIBLE to be on OUR board, which does not make sense, and is just a swipe at certain people <she> and her friends do not like.

Personally who cares, I don't anymore.... I will sit back and watch and laugh as they lose more and more face not only with the neighborhood, but with the city, and LISC too.
[/quote]

 





Even though I am a SPAR member, at least I think I still am, I really am out of the loop with all this. I haven't even been to a general meeting in a few years, maybe longer. I try to stay away from most drama, but after 29 pages on this thread, I just had to throw my question out there. No insults were intended, it's just was my perception of this thread.
  Uptowngirl, thanks.
 
 

Quoteand now the executive board basically slapping the membership in the face has given huge credibility to the fact that the complaints over the last election were valid

Unlike strider, sheclown and jbm, I am a SPAR member, and I don't feel slapped in the face at all b/c members of an under-appreciated volunteer board have life/professional issues that require their immediate attention (and of course the holiday season alone is enough to complicate calendar coordination). Many other members feel the way I do, so please stop mis-representing us all by speaking for "the membership" and/or "the community."

Some non-members have figured out how to use this board, and others, to suit their purpose of undermining current efforts. I've heard it from the horses' mouths that the City and LISC do not want to deal with bickering factions in this neighborhood (it's ONE of the reasons they stayed out of here so long!) So this non-member group is in the process of undermining a lot more than SPAR!

Remember how the city paved the entire east side in 2007, sends street sweepers into Springfield for the first time in 30 years, plants trees, upgrades electrical infrastructure so the grid can handle our computers/peripherals, locks down the dog park at night and keeps a city worker at Confederate during daylight hours, mows Klutho (at least more frequently), and finishes underground infrastructure projects/roadway projects on Main/8th?!?!?

Now I know the COJ hasn't handled all of these things perfectly - I've seen a few complaints re: piles of dirt left on the corner by the street-sweeping equipment, or a few dying trees b/c the COJ had money to do it, but not right. But if anyone doesn't see these things as positives for the community, then we will have to agree to disagree. And if you want more of these types of things to stop happening, then hop on strider and sheclown's bandwagon - the COJ will bug out of here b/c it's too much trouble. That may stink, but that is the reality.

I wouldn't claim everything is handled perfectly the way it is. Unlike some post-ers, I don't think it's realistic to expect perfection from an all volunteer board (that some seem to just want to complain about rather than take part in) when our own federal gov't can't get entitlement programs, the tax system, healthcare, education, foreign policy, etc. right, and our own municipal gov't is underfunded/resourced for just the infrastructure issues facing it.

Springfield's problems aren't as big as our nation's, or even our city's, but I expect these groups to make the best effort to make progress - and that is what SPAR is doing. Again, all anyone who wants proof of this firsthand has to do is call SPAR and ask how they can help. They will be contributing, and will have the opportunity see all of the progress SPAR's under-appreciated board is helping to make.

I'd like to hear strider and sheclown's plans for attracting businesses to our commercial corridors or revitalizing the park system (and please be sure to include timelines, budgets, and funding sources). I haven't heard a plan from them for any actual positive neighborhood change? Please submit an outline of what you would do to improve Springfield (and we've already gotten that you would adhere to bylaws, get rid of certain boardmembers, make sure others are added through the elective process - this is fine, but what can you bring to this community after that?)

So while trash may still get left on my corner and aging underground pipes are creating holes in our newly paved streets, I'll take an under-appreciated volunteer board, made up of real people with other life/work concerns like yours and mine, working hard with an under-funded charitable organization (LISC) and an under-funded municipal govt, to make any positive change ANY DAY, over a few folks who aren't members, and who don't live in the community, who want to complain and disrupt successful relationships with orgs that now want to contribute to improvement.

Btw, SPAR is not technically a community development corporation (a non-profit that develops affordable housing). But if that is what strider/sheclown think is needed here, perhaps they should legitimize their own organizations, and become the Springfield CDC.

So Zoo I assume you agree Barbara Sweet should cease and desist any further work on SPAR's behalf because she does not live or EVEN work here, also her time is up.

btw, while I let me membership expire (since I have no say now), I do volunteer time to SPAR and other organizations in the neighborhood as well as live here (two homes owned actually).

Basing eligibility to join in regards to living or working in the community is a bit of a red herring. Certainly if someone like Tony Allegretti wanted to sit on the board, I personally would be cool with it. I can think of any number of Springfield boosters who don't technically live or work here that I would have no problems serving on the board.

That said, there is the issue of tracking of board terms. There doesn't seem to be any positive control over that, and its causing some serious discrepancies in regards to when terms began or end.

Barbara Sweet did have an office in Springfield (2 of them, actually), and it is my understanding she plans to have an office here again, though not until the appropriate space on the commercial corridor is available. I do not think anyone should vacate a board spot based on information that is relayed on this board - not until I have investigated the previous election timelines myself, or been informed of it from someone I believe is trustworthy, would I think that appropriate.

I'm sorry you let your membership expire. If you volunteer for SPAR, you definitely have a say as you are there on the front lines. What activities have you participated in/led? What about them should have been done differently? To whom did you voice your opinion? I think you participated in the Citigroup clean up, and I appreciate you for it! Thx.

Quote from: zoo on November 17, 2008, 11:46:17 AM
Barbara Sweet did have an office in Springfield (2 of them, actually), and it is my understanding she plans to have an office here again, though not until the appropriate space on the commercial corridor is available. I do not think anyone should vacate a board spot based on information that is relayed on this board - not until I have investigated the previous election timelines myself, or been informed of it from someone I believe is trustworthy, would I think that appropriate.

I'm sorry you let your membership expire. If you volunteer for SPAR, you definitely have a say as you are there on the front lines. What activities have you participated in/led? What about them should have been done differently? To whom did you voice your opinion? I think you participated in the Citigroup clean up, and I appreciate you for it! Thx.

Zoo my only issue is the removal of the vote, everything else is secondary (such as not following by-laws and the term limits). Bottom line if SPAR can get the vote issue resolved, and then clean up their practices as applicable I have no issues. I do reserve the right to critique actions as they come up as should anyone in an open free society.

OK, Zoo, let's take a look at what you are trying to say here:

QuoteSome non-members have figured out how to use this board, and others, to suit their purpose of undermining current efforts. I've heard it from the horses' mouths that the City and LISC do not want to deal with bickering factions in this neighborhood (it's ONE of the reasons they stayed out of here so long!) So this non-member group is in the process of undermining a lot more than SPAR!

To start with, even non-members, per both the articles and the by-laws are represented by SPAR Council.  Your meeting are supposedly open so others may attend.  Non-members, once you claim to be representing them, earn the right to speak out.  They of course, must join before they can vote or run for office. So, other than pointing out severe irregularities to the by-laws, the lack of even following them and the fact that some of your "under appreciated" volunteers are still sitting on the board illegally, how is it that we two are undermining anything?  Pointing out what is truly an injustice to the membership and the community is undermining it?  You need to go figure out what undermining is, because you obviously do not have a clue.  But, of course, we know who you work for so that does explain your position on this, doesn't it?

That dislike on the cities part about not wanting to deal with bickering factions is very true.  It is why HSCC was formed and why many were nervous about the merger between HSCC and SPAR.  It was hoped the new organization would be above the shenanigans that happened at SPAR.  The recent actions of SPAR Council's executive committee has proven the Nay-Sayers correct.  I would expect the city to be cautious about dealing with an organization that doesn’t know enough to follow it's own by-laws and to deal with a group of people who kept themselves in "power" illegally.   Besides, what we have heard is that the city is nervous and not comfortable with SPAR Council (or rather, some of the people who are "running" SPAR Council) as it was.

QuoteBtw, SPAR is not technically a community development corporation (a non-profit that develops affordable housing). But if that is what strider/sheclown think is needed here, perhaps they should legitimize their own organizations, and become the Springfield CDC.

No, SPAR Council was not set up like a CDC.  But, from the actions I have seen, that seems to be the likely intent of those in "power" at the moment. They seem to be justifying some of their actions by comparing SPAR Council to other organizations - which are CDC's. LISC is certainly charged with affordable housing as a primary goal so the fact that LISC and SPAR Council are partnering at all supports the idea that SPAR Council is going towards being a CDC.  It isn't our goal, but what appears to be the path being taken.

The rest of your post is just "stumping".  It's what you accuse us of doing all the time and, hey, it's your right too.  But keep in mind that everyone here has the right to form their own opinion from the facts, so let's keep to the facts.  Trying to make this out to be by only myself and Sheclown and no one else, trying to give us credit for what your "under appreciated" volunteer executive committee has done, which is undermine the integrity of the entire SPAR Council organization and this community,  is incorrect and unfair to the residents of this community.  We did not change the by-laws, we did not ignore the by-laws nor did we stay in place past our terms or accept illegal appointments.  Your “under appreciated” volunteer executive committee did.  Give them the credit they deserve.

Quote from: zoo on November 17, 2008, 11:46:17 AM
Barbara Sweet did have an office in Springfield (2 of them, actually), and it is my understanding she plans to have an office here again, though not until the appropriate space on the commercial corridor is available. I do not think anyone should vacate a board spot based on information that is relayed on this board - not until I have investigated the previous election timelines myself, or been informed of it from someone I believe is trustworthy, would I think that appropriate.

I'm sorry you let your membership expire. If you volunteer for SPAR, you definitely have a say as you are there on the front lines. What activities have you participated in/led? What about them should have been done differently? To whom did you voice your opinion? I think you participated in the Citigroup clean up, and I appreciate you for it! Thx.

So it's okay for one person to have a say because they're letting their membership expire and yet they also volunteer....funny thing is..you list me as a non-member, it just so happens that I didn't renew because of this issue with the board and no elections....oh, and I happen to do a hell of a lot of volunteering. Let's see, SACARC, Block Captain and more, but I suppose that's not good enough for me to be allowed to complain. Not that I need to justify myself to you, or anyone else. I'm entitled to complain, I'm entitled to bring it into the open, what I feel the board is doing wrong.

CDC or HOA or whatever , member or nonmember , whatever SPAR does affects everyone in the community. I dont know who governs or regulates this type of organization , but that is who needs to be notified of any illegal          activity with this organization . Maybe starting a new group is order here .

Here are the facts:

1. You have complained about boardmembers, board business and board bylaws. SPAR has agreed to address these issues. The schedule under which they have agreed to address these issues is not rapid enough for you, so you continue to beat a dead horse.

2. The SPAR board has not excluded any member from attending a meeting, or assisting through volunteerism.

3. When SPAR calls any city department to get an answer to a question or arrange a meeting, the city is pleased to return calls, meet, and discuss the feasibility of SPAR's requests. Please tell us how the city responds when you call them (if you ever have regarding anything other than your own private interests)?

4. Few of the "intents" you have inferred, based on the "actions you have seen" in this entire thread have been factual in any way, so it follows that your last one isn't either. LISC has 6 community objectives, and is partnered with SPAR under the commercial corridor revitalization initiative (they call it CMAS).

5. Since SPAR is not going to develop affordable housing, your window to start the Springfield CDC is still open - please, go for it.

6. I, and other informed-by-choice-and-action post-ers, are wasting our time attempting to reason with someone who just has an axe to grind (over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over). You have proven yourself repetitive, irrational, and uninformed about the current state of the community overall.

I'll see you and your 10 supporters at the SPAR meeting in 2009.

WOW!

I think this is getting a little personal. It isn't about grinding axes, or who likes who or who does how much in the neighborhood. We all live here or own homes here right? This started out for me about the vote, about taking the voice away from the neighbors. In investigating why this occurred, other issues within SPAR came to light which should be addressed too. I could care less who hates who or who volunteers more time. I want the best neighborhood I could possibly have. Yes there are some who have mostly negative things to say about SPAR, perhaps that is their experience, but so far there have also been a couple of posters that have NOTHING negative to say at all either. Both sides need to meet in the middle for the betterment of the neighborhood period.

Show down!

Question: Who is Zoo and who is Strider? Assume they are both Springfield residents and possible current / one time SPAR members. I'd like to know their names (at least last names) so when I attend the meetings I know who's who.

Thanks.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 17, 2008, 03:21:21 PM
Show down!

Question: Who is Zoo and who is Strider? Assume they are both Springfield residents and possible current / one time SPAR members. I'd like to know their names (at least last names) so when I attend the meetings I know who's who.

Thanks.

LOL!!! I think we will be able to tell real quick based on the posts....

Very good post, UTG....I wanted to make sure this stayed in the appropriate thread.

QuoteQuote from: uptowngirl on Today at 08:13:17 AM
This whole deal just sucks. I am sorry but it does.

Everyone wants a great neighborhood. Really, the complaints are pretty small:

More input from the neighborhood (for those that want some), better communication, voting ability; follow our own by-laws.

So SPAR is going to have a meeting...sometime, maybe January now. So what? We should not even be having discussions around why SPAR does not follow its own rules, about why they would attempt to change the rules to take the voice of the neighborhood away from the many and give it to the few. People can come on here and scream about how much SPAR does for the neighborhood (and it does) but that does not negate the issue at hand, SPAR is not following it's own rules, has people on the board that are not eligible, or whose term has ran out, and has attempted to change the by-laws to take the vote away from the neighborhood. As long as this is in place SPAR DOES NOT SPEAK FOR THE NEIGHBORHOOD (and the city will figure that out unless changes are made). SPAR could just clean themselves up you know, they do not need to meet with the community to acknowledge the issues and fix them. This has been going on for a while, long enough to have fixed the issue and been done with it, but instead SPAR has chosen to go down the path of dragging it out as long as possible with many different excuses, and personal attacks by one of the most divisive soon to be, should be already, board members. If they couldn't meet on a specific date in October, why not change the date, now November (same thing), now December (same thing), how about January...think we will actually meet then? For what? If SPAR has the best of the best on the board then just fix yourself! It should not be too hard with all the great talent. If you are not eligible to participate on the board then step down, have elections and let’s all get on with our lives. SPAR does not know who is or is not eligible and/or whose term is up? Well what a freaking JOKE! If you can’t figure this out, then why should anyone trust this board to make decisions for the neighborhood???

Quit making excuses, attacking the voice of dissent, and fix your damn self….

This thread has been split, in order to remain on topic. There is a new thread so that others can continue to discuss the business corridor in Springfield. This thread is intended to continue the discussion of SPAR

Ok, we have had a lot of posts about what was done by SPAR Council, but we have yet to have a definitive reason why.  So, here is the list as we know it:

1) The executive board is not following the by-laws.  This is in written record and from current board members. 

2)The elections were supposed to be held last October.  No one had the authority to not hold elections until the current board changed the by-laws June of  2008 to allow for appointing OR electing all board members.  This was once explained as a way to get the “right” people and talents on the board.  At the same time, the Governance Board was formed.  It was charged with  choosing candidates with the “right” talents and abilities and actually running the elections.  Instead, it illegally, as the by-laws do not give it this power, determined to not have elections. This is also in written form as minutes of meetings and votes and the actual by-laws.

3) The current Chairman of the Governance Board was appointed the end of last year. His appointment was illegal because he had already served 6 years and though it was “determined” at some point that if one year passed after someone’s  last term, they could serve again, this man was appointed before one year was officially up.  We were told by a current board member that the board was told “it didn’t matter” by the executive committee.  Just another point of not following their own by-laws.  In addition to this issue, the appointment process was not legal per the by-laws.  Also in written form and from past and current board members.

4) Recently, the names of the board members elected and appointed in various years was posted.  Several people who are past and current board members have been involved with this.  Based on this information, it is evident that at least three board members should have been up for re-election this past October.  Some believe the total number based on some appointments could be six board members.  This is based on the actual by-laws and the fact that it does not seem that these people were reappointed as is possibly allowed by the June, 2008 by-laws.  The question was asked if they had been re-appointed, but it was not answered and at least one current board member seems to agree that they needed to have been reelected or appointed to be legally on the board right now.

So, those four issues seem to be what is truly relevant  in this discussion.  If any wish to try to discredit me and this list, please remember that it is not really my list.  It belongs to the group that is made up of members, past members, past board members and current board members of SPAR Council and is indeed based on fact that can be supported in black and white.

I present this list so I can ask a question and the relevant issues can be readily available.

Who benefits or profits by each of these actions? Answer that and we will know why it was done.

So...there has been some talk about having the Q & A General Meeting in early December, in order to get it accomplished in 2008 and prior to the holidays. The 4th is the date being discussed.

As I agreed to do in the SPAR Forum, I will continue to be the "gatherer" of questions and forward them to the SPAR Board.

Please email me if there have been any updates since the last batch I received from Strider (bagrin) on October 16th. The earlier the better in the event some research is required...like "what was the revenue for July 2001?"

Thanks,
Phil
[former VP, now just a V]

fil888 "at" bellsouth "dot" net [I cannot access this email at work, so please excuse any delays in response]

From the weekly update - or so I've been told.  Seems like after a year or two, they removed me from the update list!  Wonder why?!?!  ::)

QuoteThe SPAR Board Question & Answer Session has been rescheduled for December 4th at 7PM at the SPAR building. The Springfield Community has always had great support from the City of Jacksonville - that support continues in the very best possible way. Attending this meeting will be our City Councilman, Dr. Johnny Gaffney, Deputy City Manager, Kerri Stewart, and Chief for Zoning and Code Enforcement, Derek Igou. If there are additional questions, please submit them in writing to sparoffice@sparcouncil.org before close of business on Monday December 1st.

So this begs the question to be asked....what is this meeting supposed to be about again?

Either they don't expect the Q & A to last very long and maybe having these guests for other issues? It doesn't make any sense at all. They still haven't updated their webpage, as this is still showing...which clearly states the reason for the Q & A:

QuoteA Q & A Session is on the agenda for the November General Membership Meeting Thursday, November 20th at 7PM at Karpeles to discuss recent changes to the SPAR bylaws. The Q&A session is intended to involve all SPAR members in the process of recruiting board members who are willing to contribute to the LISC/SPAR plans for the neighborhood and the commercial corridor revitalization efforts. At this meeting, procedures for filling board vacancies under the new bylaws and the use of a matrix to determine the types of skills needed by the board (fundraising, event planning, advertising, marketing, etc.) will be reviewed â€" as well as plans for engaging the community in the recruitment of potential candidates with those skills.

What does code enforcement & Dr Gaffney have to do with elections and broken bylawe ?

From what I'm reading, it looks like the Q & A session will be a chance for the general membership to discuss other topics as well.  The guests may be there to answer some questions.

The guests would have absolutely nothing to do with the board members, the changing of the bylaws and the fact that there's not been an election to replace expired terms and or resignations. This has all the earmarks of an attempt to side step the real issues. As for allowing open discussion, I don't see that happening, not if questions had to be submitted prior to the meeting...to me, that sounds like questions will be selected and answers predetermined. Having to submit questions does not give the appearance of an open discussion forum.

The Q & A was supposed to address those concerns, which again...would not relate to any of the guests. This was what SPAR has on their website, regarding the Q & A, so you tell me...how does this relate to the guests?

QuoteA Q & A Session is on the agenda for the November General Membership Meeting Thursday, November 20th at 7PM at Karpeles to discuss recent changes to the SPAR bylaws. The Q&A session is intended to involve all SPAR members in the process of recruiting board members who are willing to contribute to the LISC/SPAR plans for the neighborhood and the commercial corridor revitalization efforts. At this meeting, procedures for filling board vacancies under the new bylaws and the use of a matrix to determine the types of skills needed by the board (fundraising, event planning, advertising, marketing, etc.) will be reviewed â€" as well as plans for engaging the community in the recruitment of potential candidates with those skills.

Quote from: Dark Knight on November 22, 2008, 06:37:47 AM
What does code enforcement & Dr Gaffney have to do with elections and broken bylawe ?

Absolutely nothing...they're making an attempt to side step the real issues!

Questions were to be submitted prior to the meeting in the event research was needed. I believe one of the questions submitted already was "what has SPAR done towards preservation recently?" (I am paraphrasing). Having an answer for you AT the meeting sure beats, "I'll have to get back witcha' on that one."

If I am at a meeting advertised as a "Q & A Session," I am going to ask my questions, in a civil manner, regardless of who is there from the COJ.

Not sure where inviting peeps from COJ is an "attempt to side step the real issues." Are you going to be afraid to ask questions in front of Dr Gaffney? Not me....

Phil

Perhaps the Governance Board has hired off-duty code enforcement officers.  ;D

Cool.  Do you really think we will be able to "ask" questions?

Ask away. Please.

It is my desire that this meeting brings people together and clears the air. Or at least puts a face to everyone's name: residents, forum posters, and SPAR Board members.

I am pretty sure this is not going to be Thunder Dome. But just in case I am bringing my high frequency whistle.

Phil

Quote from: FinnegansWake on November 22, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
I am pretty sure this is not going to be Thunder Dome. But just in case I am bringing my high frequency whistle.
Phil

HA HA HA!!! I am sure you are right, but just in case I am bringing a plastic poncho, coverage my man, coverage.

Having to submit questions prior to the meeting, for research, is fine...but as board members, they should already know
* why they changed the bylaws
* why they haven't had elections
* why the governance committee consists of hand picked members
* why they haven't let anyone know what positions are open
* what terms are expired...(which takes you right back to open positions)

Well, they do. So I expect you to be front and center on December 4th asking those five specific questions.

Phil

I've got one. Why was AlexS asked to resign from the board?? He was the only member of said board that made attempts to quell the revolt.. Is he wrong for standing up for the people he represents???

Quote from: FinnegansWake on November 22, 2008, 08:20:35 AM
Well, they do. So I expect you to be front and center on December 4th asking those five specific questions.

Phil

I thought you submitted them for us?

Quote from: soxfan on November 22, 2008, 08:24:26 AMI've got one. Why was AlexS asked to resign from the board?? He was the only member of said board that made attempts to quell the revolt.. Is he wrong for standing up for the people he represents???

Good question Soxfan....he had been working with everyone to try and resolve the issues...and it's a shame that he was treated so unfairly by some of the other board members. That alone has given more insight as to the board's intentions

Joan - I did submit them. But this is an important meeting, and your listing of those questions tells me they are specifically important to you, so I reasoned that you will be there to hear the answers firsthand. I expect everyone to have a list of the questions they want answered, specifically.

Phil

I do intend to be there and I will have my list

Quote from: soxfan on November 22, 2008, 08:24:26 AM
I've got one. Why was AlexS asked to resign from the board?? He was the only member of said board that made attempts to quell the revolt.. Is he wrong for standing up for the people he represents???

Because the chair of the governance committee and president felt that my actions hurt the public image of SPAR, frustrated other board members and wasted the time of the board. I did not contribute either enough money myself or raise funds which is currently the #1 priority. I was also told that other valuable board members have resigned because of me or were planning to do so.

Alex, You were a valuable member of the board.

SPAR would do well to designate a board member in charge of neighborhood relations. This is a niche role that SPAR's leaders have overlooked to their detriment. A membership liaison board member would probably have been able to solve many of the issues raised in these threads and prevented the current backlash.

Quote from: stephendare on November 22, 2008, 01:39:48 PM
AlexS, are you fu*#ing kidding?

What is the point of having a voting board if the job of board members is to simply agree with the party line?

Alex, Im sorry these little petty despots have apparently mistaken what a voting board is supposed to be about.

This is the actual proof in the pudding that the SPAR organization has become worse than the perception of it.

So let me get this straight,  You didnt toe the party line in public, represented the actual residents of the neighborhood, engaged in public and open debate and discussion as you are required to do by the spirit of the non profit charter and were told that you were out of line?

The City needs to be informed of these outrageous actions.

Who on earth is the 'governance chair'?
Its probably time to review the SPAR charter with the city.

Jack Meeks is the chair of the Governance Committtee who was appointed by the president.

I was also accused of conspiring with a small group of people with ulterior motives to take down SPAR. I never thought that trying to get the corporation to follow it's own Articles and Bylaws would be a conspiracy. Neither should be providing (already public but not readily accessible) information to the membership and general public.

Quote from: stephendare on November 22, 2008, 01:39:48 PM
Its probably time to review the SPAR charter with the city.

SPAR Council is a non-profit business entity charterd with the State of Florida. It has IRS 501(c)3 tax-exempt status.
Springfield Preservaton and Restoration INC, the predecessor organization, listed the same address and filed a name change petition to become SPAR Council. Springfield Preservation and Restoration INC is the organization name on the Duval Co. business tax rolls.

SPAR Council's information is available at: http://www.sunbiz.org/corinam.html (Search term: Springfield Preservation).
Duval Co. records at: http://fl-duval-taxcollector.governmax.com/collectmax/search_collect.asp?l_nm=owner&site=collect_search&sid=7D02E4959FB94544971323DC3DD7DC8F.


Articles of Incorporation, bylaws, and books of a 510(c)3 are legally open.

Non-profits and not-for-profits are no more legally bound by the "spirit of the their charters" to be community based than any other business. There are some very legal, calculating, and successful non-profs out there that have not a scintilla of community imput. I am certainly not advocating this approach for SPAR as it does run afoul of their stated purpose on their 990s and within their Articles of Incorporation.

Money?

Quote from: AlexS on November 22, 2008, 01:33:21 PM
.. I was also told that other valuable board members have resigned because of me or were planning to do so.

oh, for goodness sake.

Anyone who has met you, understands immediately, that you are, thoughtful and methodical -- that your mind works like a machine which needs all of the facts -- your attempt to understand this situation ought to be emulated, not attacked.

Quote from: AlexS on November 22, 2008, 01:33:21 PM
I did not contribute either enough money myself or raise funds which is currently the #1 priority.

yeah, what's the deal about the money? 

Quote from: AlexSI was also accused of conspiring with a small group of people with ulterior motives to take down SPAR. I never thought that trying to get the corporation to follow it's own Articles and Bylaws would be a conspiracy. Neither should be providing (already public but not readily accessible) information to the membership and general public.

Man o man, have they lost their minds?! That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet....of all people...you're one of the most up-standing, up-front people I've ever met. You challenged anyone who questioned anything about the workings of spar, stood up for the board, and made damn sure that things were made clear...and they dare accuse you of conspiring against them. Geez, that's about as paranoid as one could get. Clearly, that have no desire to have people of such high standards and of moral character on that board...not when they can turn on someone like you! How disgraceful, they should be ashamed of themselves. And for anyone still on that board, who hasn't stood up in protest...well...they're no better than those who have made such shameful accusations. The spar board has lost any respect, I held.

Quote from: jbm32206 on November 22, 2008, 06:00:16 PM

Quote from: AlexSI was also accused of conspiring with a small group of people with ulterior motives to take down SPAR. I never thought that trying to get the corporation to follow it's own Articles and Bylaws would be a conspiracy. Neither should be providing (already public but not readily accessible) information to the membership and general public.

Man o man, have they lost their minds?! That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet....of all people...you're one of the most up-standing, up-front people I've ever met. You challenged anyone who questioned anything about the workings of spar, stood up for the board, and made damn sure that things were made clear...and they dare accuse you of conspiring against them. Geez, that's about as paranoid as one could get. Clearly, that have no desire to have people of such high standards and of moral character on that board...not when they can turn on someone like you! How disgraceful, they should be ashamed of themselves. And for anyone still on that board, who hasn't stood up in protest...well...they're no better than those who have made such shameful accusations. The spar board has lost any respect, I held.

I sure wish I had a dime for every "I'm sure there is a very logical explanation for what they are doing..." that Alex said.

I could donate it to SPAR in his name and maybe they would vote him back on the island.

Quote from: stephendare on November 22, 2008, 02:16:04 PM
Strider, how on earth are you going to 'reform' an organization that is this far off course?

Sorry, I was in the middle of the river today and not on the computer.  Some interesting things from ALexS.  I will add to what he said.  I did go to the board meeting in October, though I had to miss November’s and Gerry Troy all but came over the table at him and it seemed like Mr. Troy had Claude's blessing. It was very obvious that if you dared to question any of the executive boards decisions, you were belittled and threatened.  It is of no great surprise to me that they threatened AlexS off the board because they only want people who will do their bidding.  The message here is:  If you can think for yourself and if you believe that a neighborhood organization should actually have the best interests of the community at heart, there is no place for you on the SPAR Council board.

We can now begin to guess why it was important to ignore the by-laws and get Jack Meeks on board.  We can now begin to see that there is indeed a conspiracy developing here.  And it is not from me.  Whether any wish to believe it, if the board had just said "Yep, we goofed, we need to go ahead and have elections” , I would have shut up and more than likely, every single one of them would have been re-elected.  By doing that, they would have stopped us digging and we would have not even realized everything they have done.  Now?  Now the community needs to recognize that this is not about a few residents just thinking that they know better than us.  It isn’t even about a  few large egos.  This is most definitely about something else.  Something that we, the residents and business owners, are not supposed to know about because if we did, we wouldn’t like it and perhaps could stop it.  It is time to ask, who profits?

Let’s face it, if this group of people who have performed a hostile takeover of the non-profit called SPAR Council were actually the nice, hard working, selfless volunteers some have tried to portray them as, how would you have reacted to being told that you were knowingly ignoring the by-laws, not listening to your membership and staying on past your legal term?  I would have said, "Hey, you think you can do better?  Have at it."  But then again, if they actually were those selfless, hard working volunteers with nothing personal to gain, would we have the issues we now have?

Some of you won’t like it that I just “attacked” the executive/ governance committee - which is Claude Moulton, Louise DeSpain, Jack Meeks, Barbara Sweet and…did I miss someone?  If so I apologize.  Right now, they all deserve it.  They got rid of a man that I know is truly a hard working, selfless volunteer who was being a voice of reason.  That tells me they do not want reason.  They are grasping for some apple that we can not yet see and it is not for the resident's benefit, but their own.

Reform?  I think for now, it would be immense fun to “follow the money” - see who profits.   Afterall, it is the “Number One priority”.   If we do that.....reform is sure to follow.

Wasn't it already realized that Jack Meeks was appointed to the board illegally, and isn't Barbara Sweets' term expired? So how are they sitting on the governance board, who are the ones to oversee elections and filling of open positions?

QuoteBecause the chair of the governance committee and president felt that my actions hurt the public image of SPAR

Ok, Alex. This is kind of sucky. However, I do have to throw out 2 things that strike me:

1. Bad PR is something that everyone that wants Springfield to succeed should be concerned about.

2. Any other non-profit organizational board having members that were felt to negatively impact the public perception of the org, would likely do exactly what Alex has indicated SPAR did. I'll suggest some examples:

- What if Habijax had someone on its board that publicly claimed they don't give a lick about building homes for low-income First Coasters, and their volunteers shouldn't either?

- What if Second Harvest had a boardmember that publicly claimed that those who need food assistance are just lazy slackers, and should get a job or starve?

- What if Downtown Vision had a boardmember that publicly claimed their real interest was growth in Jacksonville Beach because that's where the real urban fun was happening?

- What if a Jacksonville Zoo boardmember was found to be planning a trip to Chile to enjoy a guided jaguar hunting excursion?

- What if a MOCA boardmember publicly stated that contemporary art is not worth having in a city the size of ours?

These scenarios may seem ridiculous, but it's because these org's boards have members, appointed and elected, whose values/goals are aligned with theirs. It would probably seem even more ridiculous if someone who is a die-hard supporter of arts, but not contemporary art, ran for a MOCA board seat with hopes of changing MOCA's mission to featuring only antiquities.

This past summer, I sat in a SPAR board planning meeting that had each of the org's 4 strategic "buckets" on easels in the 4 corners of the room. When the independent, non-profit effectiveness leader suggested that SPAR boardmembers get up and stand by the bucket they felt was most important, 3 of the four room corners had the majority of boardmembers standing in them. Alex stood alone, briefly, in the 4th corner.

It is easy feel angry, frustrated, and betrayed. SPAR critics will do well by keeping the heated rhetoric to a simmer and devoting the energy to the growing list of questions. SPAR already feels cornered and under attack, inflamed rhetoric just encourages the leaders to entrench and further reject community input. It probably doesn't help to feed their claims of a band of axe-grinding rabble rousers. Why play to their unfair characterization?

I encourage people to start posting their questions to the Working Group: Questions for the SPAR Board thread. The more questions are shared, prepared, and discussed, the more familiar that people will be with the issues raised. Also, it will permit a larger group to evaluate how well SPAR addressed all of the questions posed.

Quoteorg's 4 strategic "buckets" on easels in the 4 corners of the room.

Respectfully... I ask... What were the strategic buckets to choose from??

Quote from: zoo on November 22, 2008, 06:50:33 PM

This past summer, I sat in a SPAR board planning meeting that had each of the org's 4 strategic "buckets" on easels in the 4 corners of the room. When the independent, non-profit effectiveness leader suggested that SPAR boardmembers get up and stand by the bucket they felt was most important, 3 of the four room corners had the majority of boardmembers standing in them. Alex stood alone, briefly, in the 4th corner.

...and was crucified shortly thereafter.

We've already posted and submitted our questions. As for quieting and/or calming the voicing of our concerns and outrage...I for one, will not be silenced. I think it's absolutely shameful that such an outstanding board member was placed into an unfair situation which resulted in a resignation. If the board was so concerned about negative perceptions, then they should've taken that into consideration when they didn't hold elections, and didn't decide to hold a question and answer session until there was enough public outcry. The board should feel under attack, as it's being put...they brought this on themselves. I suppose they simply didn't expect anyone to take notice or to speak out about what's going on....well it sure has been getting the attention it deserves.

Here's the answer to BridgeTroll's question, as posted on sparcouncil.org/forums by AlexS (thanks) on Sept 22:

QuoteMeasurable targets were set for each of the four main categories:

Restore
50 homes or structures in Springfield

Revitalize
Promote four infrastructure projects for Springfield
Complete two high visibility beautification projects
Two hot spots - drugs gone
Promote two high impact developments
Support ten new businesses to open or expand

Engage Residents
2-3 activities per month that bring residents together
2 big events per year that are fundraisers; 1000 plus people

Lead the Organization
Board devlopment
Fundraising
Increase membership to 300 members
Staffing and other expenses

Here a summary of activities based on the above 4 categories.

Restore
Library of information CARE Reports
COA mentoring
HITZ
Historic Preservation Commission monthly
Code Enforcement-site visits, coordination, endangered structure letters
LUZ/Cny Council
Baseline Surveys
Project review for new developments
Office hours - walk-in's and phones
Block Captains monthly meeting and reports Contractors and craftsmen list
Baseline and inventories of spaces

Revitalize
Roundtable monthly meeting with City
SHADCO/JSO
JSO-Direct hot spots, etc.
Block Captains monthly meeting and report
Security Fund
Beautification Fund
Advisor to business and developers on businesses and improvements
Office hours-walk-in's and phone
Newsletters & Website & Marketing tools

Commercial Corridor Program
Coordinator of Metro Edge Market Study
Managing Commercial Outreach Program-take tours, meet, look at space, selling to CB's, facilitate
Marketing strategy and materials
Manage Revitalization Committee
Commercial space revitalization tool kit
Retail Attraction and Deal Making training program
Springfield Area Merchants and Business Association coordination
Metro Edge Market Study Implementation
Leasing Strategy
Clean up program
Education

Engage Residents
Heritage Days
Newsletters
Website
Flyers
October Fest
Community Calendar
Membership Meetings with programs on relevant topics and membership recruitment
Board Meetings
Committee Meetings
Office hours-walk-in's and phones
Support activities of other organizations

Lead the Organization
Board Development
- Committee/Board Meetings should have a quorum
- Regular1y scheduled committee meetings
- Executive Committee meeting between regular Board meetings
Financial Managemen/SPAR Finances
Fund Raising each board member personally responsible
Dues and increasing membership through programs
Contribution letters
Membership meetings
Staffing-paid, volunteer and other
Planning
Training
Office Management-supplies, equipment, etc

After showing Alex the door, failing to adopt a comprehensive development plan, and too few steps to improve a fiscal transparency (among other things), odds are that there is no way that I will renew my SPAR memberships in 2009. I wish the organization well, but my efforts and money will go to downtown organizations with a better grasp on urban planning.

Trust me, all of the things you mention make me furious as well. However, I have noticed that some of the most influential people on SPAR react poorly in situations like this. I do not want to give the SPAR leadership the excuse to tune out valid and constructive criticism, dismiss legitimate concerns, and justify their governing actions as protectionist. I would hate for us all to be treated to a smoke and mirrors show on the 4th. If the SPAR leadership is going to entrench, get defensive, and brush-off membership concerns, I want those in attendance to see such reactions as unprovoked obfuscation (read: a temper-tantrum).

Cool heads should prevail here. ...if they don't, then the villagers can take to torches and pitchforks.

Like you, I've allowed my membership to lapse and will not renew. I have no desire to show support to an organization that has acted in the manner in which this one has. I feel that our chances of getting sincere responses to our questions is already not going to happen. I also feel that this attempt to hold a Q & A about these issues is only because they feel forced to do so, and not because they feel they've done wrong....I really hold little to no hope of actually seeing the current board redeeming itself and doing the right thing. That's evidenced by what happened to Alex. They've pretty much brushed off the concerns, and as I said, feel this Q & A is only an attempt to make it appear they care to listen...but if they truly wanted to do the right thing, then none of this would've happened in the first place. They knew what they were doing, and they did it anyway. I just think they didn't expect any of us to speak up about it.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 22, 2008, 07:30:21 PM
...
Trust me, all of the things you mention make me furious as well. However, I have noticed that some of the most influential people on SPAR react poorly in situations like this. I do not want to give the SPAR leadership the excuse to tune out valid and constructive criticism, dismiss legitimate concerns, and justify their governing actions as protectionist. I would hate for us all to be treated to a smoke and mirrors show on the 4th. If the SPAR leadership is going to entrench, get defensive, and brush-off membership concerns, I want those in attendance to see such reactions as unprovoked obfuscation (read: a temper-tantrum).

Cool heads should prevail here. ...if they don't, then the villagers can take to torches and pitchforks.

This, is outside of our control.  Furthermore, you are saying if we behave ourselves, maybe they will listen?  Look at what happened to Alex?  What does previous history tell us?  No.

I don't know why anyone is assuming that any one of us would conduct ourselves in anything less than civil or would be out of line. Just because we express our outrage doesn't mean we're out of control.

Quote from: zoo on November 22, 2008, 06:50:33 PM
This past summer, I sat in a SPAR board planning meeting that had each of the org's 4 strategic "buckets" on easels in the 4 corners of the room. When the independent, non-profit effectiveness leader suggested that SPAR boardmembers get up and stand by the bucket they felt was most important, 3 of the four room corners had the majority of boardmembers standing in them. Alex stood alone, briefly, in the 4th corner.

Maybe you would not mind explaining to everyone what the 4th corner stood for.

That would be nice to know, since we're left wondering...although I have a good idea as to which one, knowing the caliber person you are.

When I posed the question I was hoping everyones positions would be revealed...

Okay, I'm missing something b/c I see about nine buckets. ???

Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 23, 2008, 08:59:29 AM
When I posed the question I was hoping everyones positions would be revealed...

and they should've been, otherwise the answer doesn't really answer a thing....and has only created more confusion and speculation.

I would like to hear who stood in which corners and why Alex stood in the corner that he did. Alex, in my opinion, has ALWAYS been the type of person to get all the facts possible before making his educated decisions. He ALWAYS puts forth 110% effort into things he believes in. If Alex stood in a corner alone to show his support for something, I guarantee he had a damn good reason for it.. I don't personally know the others on the board, but I do know Alex, and I have stood up with him in the faces of drug dealers and pimps to the point of violence and know without a doubt that if Alex believes in it, He will not back down from his position.  I would support Alex's decisions and ideas no matter what because I know that he does extensive research before he makes his opinions public. Alex is transparent, what you see is what you get. Alex went so far as to defend SPAR to alot of us, when he thought we were in the wrong in our opinions of them. I don't see how SPAR could even think that Alex was bad for them, he didn't speak bad about the organization to anyone, all he did was try to resolve differences between them and the people they are supposedly representing. All Alex was doing was what he and all the others on the board are SUPPOSED to do, REPRESENT THE MEMBERS OF THE ORGANIZATION.. How can SPAR accurately represent it's members when their members are kept completely in the dark?  TRANSPARENCY IS ESSENTIAL!!!! NOT NEGOTIABLE!!! Not if they're expecting to get any of my money or support..

Actually SoxFan you do (did) know some of the other Board members. Me and Dan are two. Thomas Love, Jay Fisher.

And for the record, there were (are) Board members who totally disagree with not having elections. And do not understand why Alex was treated the way he was. I am, or was anyway, one of those peeps. I really liked having Alex on the Board.

There is a mix of people on the SPAR Board. Young, old, wealthy, not so wealthy, business owners, and workers. Hope you all get to know them at the December meeting.

Phil

AlexS stood in the Restore corner. And the reason I indicated he did so "briefly" is because when he saw he was alone, he quickly joined a different corner. I don't remember which one, but I hope he'll come on and post which bucket came second for him (if he remembers).

Because I am doing this from memory, and was studying what was happening with the Restore bucket, I don't recall which other boardmembers stood in which corners. Best I remember is that Engage Residents and Revitalize were approx equally split as most supported, and Leadership of the Org in a close 3rd.

I agree SPAR should be transparent, and in my experience it has been. I am not a boardmember, and the reason I attend meetings, stop by the office, and offer my volunteer involvement is because I don't expect transparency to be delivered to my doorstep.

Quote...failing to adopt a comprehensive development plan,...

The strategic directions AlexS posted on SPAR's site, and I subsequently posted on this thread, are the basis of SPAR's adopted comprehensive development plan. It has the support of the majority of SPAR boardmembers, and its creation incorporated advisement by Springfield's residents, business owners and development interests, civic representatives, and experts in the areas of urban sociology, redevelopment and planning.

It was clear at that meeting AlexS was in the minority on the board, and his desired direction was not as much a priority for the organization as it was to him. Personally, I like Alex and respect his attempts to bridge the gap, b/c if there is one thing this thread proves, it's that different priorities/opinions exist in Springfield (not news to most).

I'm hopeful AlexS is offered a board seat on the new Springfield CDC, whose strategic direction and focus should be structure restoration. He'll do a great job!

Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2008, 12:46:12 PM
After listening to these shenanigans and watching the total non commitment to dealing with the new situations posed by the economy, I simply cannot fathom whats going on.

There is every indication that SPAR needs totally revisited.

Maybe dissolved and reformed.

I expect you will be there at the December 4th meeting, correct?

Phil

Quote from: zoo on November 23, 2008, 12:42:06 PM
AlexS stood in the Restore corner. And the reason I indicated he did so "briefly" is because when he saw he was alone, he quickly joined a different corner. I don't remember which one, but I hope he'll come on and post which bucket came second for him (if he remembers).

If memory serves correctly, I moved to the revitalize corner. Crime and neighborhood safety was part of this and has always been a priority for me. Since this was a team exercise and I seemed to be the only one interested in Restore, I joined a different corner.

Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2008, 01:01:40 PM
I will unfortunately be in Boca Raton/Fort Lauderdale on business that week, but even so I can't imagine what I would do there.

That's too bad. I would have expected from your numerous threads regarding SPAR, and the questions you raise, that you would want to be there.

To improve SPAR Council and the neighborhood. Bring solutions and ideas to the table. Meet the members of the Board and get to know them. Ask your questions face to face.

Strider (bagrin) came out from behind his keyboard and attended the October Board meeting, which I thought was a very cool thing to do. He is highly critical but he also has ideas to improve the Board.

Phil

Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2008, 01:47:51 PM
Also I have a few questions I would like to ask about the divisions of people who are apparently unwelcome in the neighborhood that are listed here.

'group homes'.
'alcoholics'
'crime elements'
and drug dealers.

How many people have to live in a place before its a group home?
What about the residents of several upscale houses who have five people living in them and who are for a fact, bona fide alcoholics?  When they eventually go through treatment, will they be unwelcome in the neighborhood?  Will their memberships to SPAR be revoked and will they then be asked to leave in no uncertain terms?

What about the number of people in the neighborhood who have sat on the SPAR board, or who show up at the mixers who do coke with regularity?  If they sell a gram to friends over at the party following the Home Tour, are they officially on the undesirable list?  Will the 'security force' pull them over and question them?  Will anyone call the cops on them?

What about the copious amount of pot that gets smoked in the neighborhood?  Are the rolling papers that are sold at Walgreens as pernicious as the 'rose in a glass tube'?  Should we make sure that the Walgreens is boycotted and pressured until they stop selling the rolling papers?

Lol!!!!

+1,000,000

If organizations really want to make it their goal to get rid of "alcoholics", as defined objectively by the DSM, then my entire street would disappear, along with the most financially successful residents of my neighborhood. The university club would lose half its members, and the yacht club would lose 97% of its members. There would be maybe 2 boats left in all the marinas in town, and the mayor's all-important football/stadium fetish would be dead, since 99.9999999999% of their fan base would be gone. Not to mention nobody would ever find a lawyer when they needed one. Or a pilot.

The truth is, nobody wants to get rid of "alcoholics", they just want to get rid of the poor ones. Alcoholic drinking a 40oz in the park? Bad...how disgusting...get out of here! Alcoholic on their 5th martini at the bar at FYC? Hello Dr. XXXXXXX! So nice to see you!

People are such f*ing hypocrites.

Zoo,

The plan developed with LISC, from what has been posted, appears to be a loose set of goals with no concrete action plan and no disclosed fund allocation.

A comprehensive urban plan for Springfield would address issues of connectivity with surrounding neighborhoods, FCCJ, and downtown. It would include specific goals for development that would support transit. It would have identified the most likely areas for clustered commercial development and lobbied for better tax incentives and business start-up grants. Devising a master development strategy would let Springfield lead a reluctant city government on progressive urban planning issues in the area.

If Springfield had a such a plan, it would never have agreed to a Main St. project that favored landscaping over walkability and medians over access. With a better plan, SPAR would likely be involved with city issues like FCCJ's expansion, public transit planning, and downtown redevelopment. If there was a plan, more SPAR board members and neighborhood citizens would understand why the area needs increased density throughout, not just single-family homes.

Going to conventions to sell the neighborhood to national retailers evidences that several members of the SPAR leadership do not understand how national retailers choose potential locations nor do they understand the basic economic progression of neighborhood revitalization.

I am glad that SPAR finally has an urban planner. That is an excellent move. Let's see his ideas.

The science of cities.  How cool. 

I have been a small business owner off and on for most of my adult life.  I've never thought in terms of "connectivity with surrounding neighborhoods" or clustering businesses together. 

This is definitely an education for me. 

Quote from: FinnegansWake on November 23, 2008, 12:36:56 PM
Actually SoxFan you do (did) know some of the other Board members. Me and Dan are two. Thomas Love, Jay Fisher.

And for the record, there were (are) Board members who totally disagree with not having elections. And do not understand why Alex was treated the way he was. I am, or was anyway, one of those peeps. I really liked having Alex on the Board.

There is a mix of people on the SPAR Board. Young, old, wealthy, not so wealthy, business owners, and workers. Hope you all get to know them at the December meeting.

Phil

Phil, aside from you, Dan, Lisa, Derek, and Alex I really don't know any of the other players. I know some of the names but none of the people, at least not enough to form a fair opinion of them. Most of the peeps that I know are off the board now and when talking to most of them say that their experience on the board was much less than fulfilling. I was pissed off at the way Alex was asked to leave the board. That took alot of balls for them to do that, especially considering that Alex was trying to be the liason between the board and alot of also pissed off members or used to be members. Alex was the only piece of transparency left on that board. I'll admit that I was not totally on board with this whole thing and still don't totally trust everyone involved,  but, at least there is nothing hidden over here. I'm not totally on board for overthrowing and tar and feathering every remaining board member. I DO think that SPAR has some splainin to do though. I think Louise has done an amazing job and I am still working with her to see a project of mine to fruition. She has helped me see a mini version of this project happen and I think she is definitely an asset where she is. SPAR just needs to be more transparent. That is my problem with the organization...

I'm also not out to 'tar and feather' nor have anyone thrown off the board. I'm ticked off at how the board treated Alex, which was totally out of line and unfair. It leaves me with the overwhelming feeling that they don't want good relations with the neighborhood, and their refusal to become more transparent has been another issue that I don't like at all. This organization should be completely transparent, it should be willing to work with the neighborhood (and it's members) and not just those with the financial ties to builders and realty...of which pretty much makes up the board and it's strongest supporters.

I also agree that Ms. DeSpain has done wonderful things for spar and haven't a problem with her remaining in the position that she's in. It all comes down to lack of being willing to have the members and neighborhood as stake holders, which we most certainly are. I feel that spar has tunnel vision and fails to see the rest of the neighborhood and the people. IT seems that if you're not involved with a builder, if you're not the business they want, then they don't give a damn about having you a part of the greater good

Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 23, 2008, 07:53:28 PMIf Springfield had a such a plan, it would never have agreed to a Main St. project that favored landscaping over walkability and medians over access. With a better plan, SPAR would likely be involved with city issues like FCCJ's expansion, public transit planning, and downtown redevelopment. If there was a plan, more SPAR board members and neighborhood citizens would understand why the area needs increased density throughout, not just single-family homes.

In fairness, almost nobody on the board even lived in the community when the Main St Plan was hatched, let alone was part of the planning. In fact, Strider and one of his business partners were part of the planning. Perhaps he can shed some light on the walkability of the design.

The lack of bike lanes, cut through's, and utter lack of a pedestrian plan fall directly on the shoulders of those who came up with the plan between 1999-2002. It was originally supposed to go all the way to 20th, but was scaled back. After the first 4 blocks went grossly over budget, the city had to get a new pot of money, as the first pot was dry. That is why there has been a 4 year gap between the two portions being worked on.

Secondly, Chris and "other posters". When has anyone said anything against alcoholics? Is this a red herring thrown out there because of statements about halfway houses? First, its worth mentioning that most peoples feeling are that no MORE halfway houses should be allowed. The ones that were there before the overlay, and worked to get a compromise in place against some very upset neighbors, should have no more problems from the community. The compromise was worked out, and that should protect those who are here now.

Personally, I don't think its right when one neighborhood carries a disproportionate share of the social services burden. We have all talked about the clustering of homeless shelters downtown has hurt the development of the core. The same holds true for Springfield. The people being treated in Springfield are from all over the city and country. There should be access to services in every community, yet the answer in this city is "lets send the recovering addict to where they can fall off the wagon nice and hard".

In regards to the organization of SPAR, I agree with Soxfans assessment. I think there needs to be some things addresses and fixed, and I think that Alex being encouraged out the door is total BS, but I am not ready to get out the pitch fork and torches and start burning effigies of "developers" along Main St.

You classifying everything as something I know "nothing about" is stupid.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 23, 2008, 08:50:09 PM
In regards to the organization of SPAR, I agree with Soxfans assessment. I think there needs to be some things addresses and fixed, and I think that Alex being encrouaged out the door is total BS, but I am not ready to get out the pitch fork and torches and start burning effigies of "developers" along Main St.

That generally sums up my take on the matter, too.

I'm a lone wolf in this dog fight. I'm not meeting with any group or part of any faction. After meeting with Alex, at his request shortly before he resigned, the JaxByDefault household volunteered to help SPAR with a legal clean-up of the conflicts in their Articles of Incorporation and bylaws. Our donation of services was refused by other SPAR leaders as Alex was told not to worry about those issues. To demonstrate that there's no grudge held here on our end: the offer still stands. Alternatively, they could hire an impressive downtown firm at $350 per hour to perform the same service. (Note: SPAR's 990s list no expenses for legal fees thanks to the pro bono  services of neighborhood and board member lawyers. By contrast, they spent over $1200 on independent accounting fees in tax year 2007.)

I respect several members of the current SPAR board. I'm less than impressed with many of SPAR's actions over the last year and a half, but think that if the organization is willing to listen to criticism, acknowledge some of their problems, and address some of these concerns, than it will be better for Springfield as a whole.

However, I do have many concerns about SPARs current urban planning and development accumen. This is a critical time for the neighborhood's development over the next decade (and beyond).

If I am not mistaken, JaxByDefault, because at the time SPAR was still getting City grant money, SPAR was required to do annual audits for the city. Finnegans can correct me if I am wrong as he was the treasurer at the time.

Sounds fair. My only intent was to point out that the Springfield shark tank is pretty generous with their time.  ;)

Jaxby Default,

You are the voice of reason.

Why not take the free leagl help? Unless you really don;t care about following your own by-laws.

This is the root issue. I am sure everyone can come up with a complaint or two or three, but when SPAR quit following it's own by-laws it truly went to far for many.

Even if it is 10 or 12 people who have identified this issue, met on it, and tried to address it I think we can all agree: if SPAR can not follow it's own by-laws there are issues. I find it interesting that there has been some comments around "no one really cares but this small gorup of troublemakers". Maybe so. But this in and of itself is an issue. No one cares that an organization does not follow it's own rules? Well no one cared that CEO's were getting 50MM bonuses, or having retreats at a cost of 10K/night, or investing in toxic mortgages until it was too late either...Rules are made for a reason, benidng them may be OK, outright breaking them, and flaunting it in the face of the people one is supposed to be representing is outrageous.

Quote from: FinnegansWake link=and for the record, there were (are) Board members who totally disagree with not having elections. And do not understand why Alex was treated the way he was. I am, or was anyway, one of those peeps. I really liked having Alex on the Board.

Phil

Yeah, I've heard that...so if this is true (and yes, I heard other members were in agreement about the election or rather, lack there of) then why did things not change? Why then, was it only Alex that was bullied into resigning? Why haven't those others who felt that not having elections was wrong, not made a firm stance or stood up in support of Alex? Most of all...why are they still sitting on the board...just how much support did they really express or feel...makes me wonder. For to me, since Alex is the only one who was bullied into resigning, and the others who claim to support the need for elections...why weren't they bullied off the board, or why didn't they leave on their own in a show of support? I would suggest that it's because they have their own agenda which is more important than doing the right thing about the changing of bylaws and/or not having elections.

Quote from: JaxByDefault on November 23, 2008, 09:24:21 PM

Quote from: downtownparks on November 23, 2008, 08:50:09 PM
In regards to the organization of SPAR, I agree with Soxfans assessment. I think there needs to be some things addresses and fixed, and I think that Alex being encrouaged out the door is total BS, but I am not ready to get out the pitch fork and torches and start burning effigies of "developers" along Main St.

That generally sums up my take on the matter, too.

I'm a lone wolf in this dog fight. I'm not meeting with any group or part of any faction. After meeting with Alex, at his request shortly before he resigned, the JaxByDefault household volunteered to help SPAR with a legal clean-up of the conflicts in their Articles of Incorporation and bylaws. Our donation of services was refused by other SPAR leaders as Alex was told not to worry about those issues. To demonstrate that there's no grudge held here on our end: the offer still stands. Alternatively, they could hire an impressive downtown firm at $350 per hour to perform the same service. (Note: SPAR's 990s list no expenses for legal fees thanks to the pro bono  services of neighborhood and board member lawyers. By contrast, they spent over $1200 on independent accounting fees in tax year 2007.)

I respect several members of the current SPAR board. I'm less than impressed with many of SPAR's actions over the last year and a half, but think that if the organization is willing to listen to criticism, acknowledge some of their problems, and address some of these concerns, than it will be better for Springfield as a whole.

However, I do have many concerns about SPARs current urban planning and development accumen. This is a critical time for the neighborhood's development over the next decade (and beyond).

That was/is a very generous thing for you to do.  It also points out what a great job Alex was doing.  He's a  --here's a problem...here's a solution-- kinda guy.

Quote from: downtownparks on November 23, 2008, 09:48:13 PM
If I am not mistaken, JaxByDefault, because at the time SPAR was still getting City grant money, SPAR was required to do annual audits for the city. Finnegans can correct me if I am wrong as he was the treasurer at the time.

Correct. Required and complied with. I have not been the treasurer for awhile now, so I cannot attest to any more audits. But Mark F. was a far better treasurer than I and kept the books in good shape.

Phil

If anyone wants to see a good discussion on how people feel about Main Street and the what and why of the planning, you can start by going to http://sparcouncil.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3872&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30 (http://sparcouncil.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3872&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30)
The first 2 to 3 pages of the thread are on subject.  And Downtownparks, I'd like the Main Street project to "fall on my shoulders" as it is a big plus to those who actually got it done, but I can not take that credit.

Also, if SPAR Council only paid $1200.00 for a full audit, they did pretty good.  I remember that it was indeed required and we used to budget $2500.00 for it. When you consider that the grant was for $50K, the few hoops you had to jump through were very much worth it. I believe there is still money out there, but from a different federal source so perhaps research could be done to see if SPAR Council could get some of it for operating expenses. The current board may not want to though as you do have to spend the money the way you say you will or they won't give it to you.  You can't just decide to change things on your personal whim. You have to be accountable for how those funds are spent.

Jaxbydefault, that was a very generous offer and one they should have taken you up on.  As far as I know, the only lawyer on the board is Claude Moulton and he is real estate law.  From the state of the by-laws, he is not well versed in corporate law.  We do have the right to ask why they did not take you up on the offer.  I seem to remember that they stated that one of the reasons they changed the by-laws was so that they could appoint the right, needed talent on the board.  Here we have an issue where the by-laws have been shown to contradict themselves and a lawyer or lawyers have offered to help free, and they refuse.  Hmmmm.  Makes me wonder what they are hiding and what is really going on.

Quote from: jbm32206 on November 24, 2008, 07:32:57 AMYeah, I've heard that...so if this is true (and yes, I heard other members were in agreement about the election or rather, lack there of) then why did things not change? Why then, was it only Alex that was bullied into resigning? Why haven't those others who felt that not having elections was wrong, not made a firm stance or stood up in support of Alex? Most of all...why are they still sitting on the board...just how much support did they really express or feel...makes me wonder. For to me, since Alex is the only one who was bullied into resigning, and the others who claim to support the need for elections...why weren't they bullied off the board, or why didn't they leave on their own in a show of support? I would suggest that it's because they have their own agenda which is more important than doing the right thing about the changing of bylaws and/or not having elections.

My last meeting was in October (this was the meeting Strider attended). I had requested that elections be placed on the agenda and when it did not show up on the printed agenda I brought it up anyway. The issue was briefly discussed, but not really to my satisfaction. It was also pointed out by me that elections WERE required, after I counted on my fingers the remaining Board members that remained after one left for health reasons. It was decided to discuss it further at the next meeting (which kind of pissed me off...but it happens).

Alex had a private meeting with a Board member, not at a Board meeting. I wonder if anyone will bring this issue up at the next Board meeting? Like, "hey, where is Alex and why did he feel the need to resign?" I can't speak for what the individual Board members have done to express their opinion on this issue. I asked him to stay on the Board to keep contributing and to, if anything, call the Board member's bluff.

And to your question asking why people did not resign en masse...there have things that I have agreed with and disagreed with over the past 3 years. There were times I was pretty pissed at some of the actions of the Old Guard (long gone by now). But I was not going to quit the Board just because I was pissed off. I felt there was way too much work to be done. I was not at the last Board meeting but I believe the elections were discussed and they will be held in January. This did not happen by magic, but by people on the Board stating their case.

And that is a rather gigantic leap of logic that because people did not resign en masse they have their own agenda. It's called being mature and possessing the desire to work from within to change things.

Phil

Quote from: strider on November 24, 2008, 09:17:51 AMAlso, if SPAR Council only paid $1200.00 for a full audit, they did pretty good.  I remember that it was indeed required and we used to budget $2500.00 for it. When you consider that the grant was for $50K, the few hoops you had to jump through were very much worth it.

For some reason the amount $4k sticks in my head. It was still a good price (I got 5 quotes) and the CPA who performed the audit went above and beyond and did an excellent job.

Phil

QuoteSPAR would likely be involved with city issues like FCCJ's expansion, public transit planning, and downtown redevelopment. If there was a plan, more SPAR board members and neighborhood citizens would understand why the area needs increased density throughout, not just single-family homes.

JBD, you make good suggestions - so good, in fact, they are consistent with what SPAR has been doing! Here are some details:

SPAR has had positive working relationships with FCCJ Downtown Campus President, Edyth Abdullah, and Executive Dean, Linda Fife, for several years. FCCJ has openly been amenable to many suggestions SPAR has made. However, they have a board, and limited budgets, just like SPAR, and SPAR is not in a position to make FCCJ do anything. If you have relationships/learning/influence that can expedite FCCJ's planning and increase their engagement further, please offer that!

Re: transit, SPAR has attended at least 3 meetings since summer 2007 with JTA representatives, including Mike Miller, Michael Blaylock, and staffers from the transit planning and operations depts. The result of these meetings has been an early 2008 application for federal grant funding for the Springfield trolley route, set to begin in Fall 2009. SPAR has also made repeated requests, via the newsletter and forum board, for community members to attend and participate in any JTA public meetings that affect Springfield's transit interests (i.e., FCCJ Rosa Parks station meetings, and input on BRT route up Boulevard/Jefferson and State/Union). I have attended some of these meetings and find, other than Louise, I am the only Springfielder there.

QuoteGoing to conventions to sell the neighborhood to national retailers evidences that several members of the SPAR leadership do not understand how national retailers choose potential locations.

The need for increased density is something SPAR has understood since taking part in the Retail Development Task Force meetings in Summer/Fall 2006 (engaging those attempting to grow retail downtown). Retail attraction is not just based on quantity of numbers, but quality of numbers, as well - something SPAR also seems to understand, as the org has spent the past 3 years (2006-2008) trying to gather demographic information that accurately reflects this changing community. JBD, you are absolutely correct in your assessment that many community members don't understand the importance of density and demographics, as there is often quite a bit of complaining about receiving and being asked to fill out surveys. Another thing that many don't want to accept is that density doesn't happen overnight, or with the wave of a magic wand - it takes time, and developers.

SPAR is not working that closely with downtown redevelopment folks, as the JEDC has made it quite clear they are not interested in working with Springfield. Springfield is not included in their definition of downtown, is not part of their BID or their CRA. JEDC is the master developer for downtown, insists that downtown has to happen before Springfield, and views the residential success Springfield has achieved as a competitive threat (because #s and density matter). Again, if you have relationships/learning/influence that can change the minds of Ron Barton, Paul Crawford and the board of the JEDC, please join the effort!

SPAR has been suggesting, for at least 2 years, that NOW is the time to establish a BID for the commercial corridors. It hasn't for two reasons:
1. The political climate in Jacksonville makes it unlikely that Springfield would get the support to get such an endeavor passed, and;
2. Springfield small businesses do not support the extra expense.

SPAR is further legitimizing to engage interests that have viewed it as a collection of LOLAs, and to compete with further threats to the community's progress (Brooklyn, JEDC's pet project). The back and forth on this board doesn't just confirm the outsiders' views of Springfield as a nest of bickering neighbors, it does damage to ANY neighborhood group's ability to be taken seriously. Other than your post, I've seen little evidence that anyone gives a thought to the perception of Springfield by those outside the community! Well they should, as Springfield is not a self-supporting island.

And I will reiterate that all of this information re: what SPAR has been doing has been available to anyone who wants it - and in some cases, was delivered to member doorsteps through the newsletter! Show up at SPAR's offices and make a request for it. You may not get it right that second (the folks there are actually working!), but expect they will make an effort to gather the information you request. That is the way it has always worked in my experience with SPAR.

Quote from: strider on November 24, 2008, 09:17:51 AM
the only lawyer on the board is Claude Moulton and he is real estate law.  From the state of the by-laws, he is not well versed in corporate law.  ...  Makes me wonder what they are hiding and what is really going on.

These are really simple issues that anyone with a law degree or relevant business experience can handle. Claude Moulton is more than competent to handle these types of legal matters. He's a fine attorney.

Sitting down with the Articles and bylaws, what becomes most evident is that they have been tinkered with overtime without making sure they are still in accord. While the bylaws have been amended, I don't think anyone has checked the articles since 2002 (or long before). It's not the most important issue for an organization as the likelihood of facing a derivative suit by members is almost nil, but tidy legal is like tidy accounting -- it let's everyone know where things stand.

As for the recent bylaws changes, there is no dispute that the leadership pursued them the wrong way. As I've said before, if LISC wanted to changes in the organizational structure to ensure institutional memory, then changes should have been proposed, publicized, and given an opportunity for membership discussion. I think some of the changes would have withstood membership scrutiny if explained; others, like the governance committee getting to decide a slate of candidates, likely would not have.

Zoo,

Alas, you and Louise were not the only people to represent Springfield's interest at transit meetings. I am part of an organization that has representation at almost every public JTA meeting, has pushed JTA to reconsider potentially damaging proposals, and advocates rail transit in Jacksonville.

I am dubious of SPAR's reliance on the Ulrich study over the MetroEdge study, which I think paints as clearer, more honest, and more workable picture of the neighborhood. There is significant development and change happening on Main, but none of it in the historic district. All of Main street's woes cannot be attributed to economic downturn and construction. The Cesery project is going ahead as it has been in the works for years, but for a myriad of reasons other developers were not yet attracted to developing this area. Also remember that we are dealing with road construction now because some members of the community did not want to deal with it while Springfield hosted the Symphony Show House.

Most national retailers will not take a chance here until indies are successful for a number of years. Bloc development grants, property tax freezes and abatements for those restoring and revitalizing commercial property, and other incentives are the best immediate means of putting businesses into the existing fabric of Main Street. There needs to be more attention paid to organic growth while chasing larger-scale projects. As many nationals also location match, there are many that will not enter a neighborhood until after another business with similar location criteria. The population of Historic Springfield alone is not enough to support a lot of retail. Connectivity is vital.

You will get no argument from me that this city's government is terrible at urban planning and development. There are numerous city proposals on the table that are damaging to the urban core and Springfield in the long run.

Going to the SPAR office to get information is not alwasy feasible. Some of us are chained to our desks and phones. Posting or emailing is a better option, but when emails and phone calls are not returned, this does not work.

A lot of us "are working too", the same or longer hours than the Spar Office!

If a drop in can be handled, then an email or phone call should be even easier, it takes less time and allows the office to research and respond on their time frame. The only issue comes up with an extended (there should be some type of acceptable SLA like most businesses have) or no response at all. Really, to try to demand people call or visit during normal working hours is a little unreasonable in this day and age of phones, email, and websites.

QuoteAlas, you and Louise were not the only people to represent Springfield's interest at transit meetings. I am part of an organization that has representation at almost every public JTA meeting, has pushed JTA to reconsider potentially damaging proposals, and is involved in lobbying for rail transit in Jacksonville.

Glad to hear someone else has been there, although I don't recall any specific Springfield questioning from anyone other than Louise - have we ever met? If not, we should, so all efforts can be coordinated and presented from a position of stronger community support.

QuoteI am dubious of SPAR's reliance on the Ulrich study over the MetroEdge study, which I think paints as clearer, more honest, and more workable picture of the neighborhood.

I have seen no evidence of anyone relying on one report more than any other (and if there was, it would be in favor of the MetroEdge study, which was conducted by a group with much experience in the urban commercial redevelopment space). All of the data collected in recent years makes up the community's story, not any one piece of it.

QuoteThere is significant development and change happening on Main, but none of it in the historic district. All of Main street's woes cannot be attributed to economic downturn and construction. The Cesery project is going ahead as it has been in the works for years, but for a myriad of reasons other developers were not yet attracted to developing this area.

Other developers have been attracted and interested, and have been driven away by 3 of the myriad of other reasons, that have also been discussed ad infinitum on this forum and others. 1. Elevated valuation by those willing to sell (Uniform Man is a good example); 2. Unmotivated/unskilled ownership, and; 3. Uninhabitable space are the primary problems affecting the south end of our commercial corridor. In the recently posted Springfield Development Assessment, some properties and pricing in this section of the commercial strip were listed, and I'm hopeful some in the development community will take a second (or third, or fourth) swing at some of them.

QuoteAlso remember that we are dealing with road construction now because some members of the community did not want to deal with it while Springfield hosted the Symphony Show House.

Actually, the reason 5th-12th didn't happen earlier has also been mentioned on this board, and it wasn't because of the Symphony Showhomes (although I'm sure many a Symphony supporter was glad to not have to drive through the suspension-killing, dust-bowl that is our current Main St). The COJ had not budgeted appropriately for the 1st OR 2nd phases of the project, and had to determine where and when they could find funding to resume the improvement.

QuoteBloc development grants, property tax freezes and abatements for those restoring and revitalizing commercial property, and other incentives are the best immediate means of putting businesses into the existing fabric of Main Street.

Totally agree, and if you ask SPAR, I'm sure they would say the same. I have attended meetings with COJ exploring the ideas of BIDS, property tax freezes and abatements, and development grants. In this economic climate, the first two don't stand much of a chance (again, if you have the necessary influence, please use it to fix that).

Development grants do exist through the Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Trust Fund, which SPAR and SAMBA promote in their literature. Premier Pharmacy used it, Bill Cesery used it, Azar Sausage has used it, and SRG will use it. When it comes to smaller businesses on the corridor, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

QuoteConnectivity is vital.

You will get no argument from me that this city's government is terrible at urban planning and development. However, there are numerous city proposals on the table that are damaging to the urban core and Springfield in the long run.

This is a chorus we've all been singing for some time (btw, I don't know if the city is terrible at it, as much as it is driven by geographically-driven political interests - the GOBN). Maybe if we keep singing connectivity together, the City Council will listen.

This post is just so Zoo doesn't have the last word.....and to remind everyone that this thread is about.....what the meeting on Dec 4th is supposed to be about.

Quote from: FinnegansWake on November 24, 2008, 09:19:49 AM
Alex had a private meeting with a Board member, not at a Board meeting. I wonder if anyone will bring this issue up at the next Board meeting? Like, "hey, where is Alex and why did he feel the need to resign?" I can't speak for what the individual Board members have done to express their opinion on this issue. I asked him to stay on the Board to keep contributing and to, if anything, call the Board member's bluff.

I did not feel the meeting was so private. It was supposed to be the SPAR president and chair of governance committee. The president did not show due to family matters. The content of the meeting however seemed very orchestrated.

I'm not at all surprised

"SPAR has had positive working relationships with FCCJ Downtown Campus President, Edyth Abdullah, and Executive Dean, Linda Fife, for several years."

This is promising. Why doesn't SPAR fill board vacancies with someone from FCCJ, or the commercial corridor north of the historic district, or a downtown development group? This would encourage dialog outside of the historic district, promote neighborhood connectivity, and allow for joint development planning. Also, it would be a far better use for appointment powers than continuing to replace elected members with former board members and friends who all happen to agree with the executive leadership.

"SPAR has attended at least 3 meetings since summer 2007 with JTA representatives, including Mike Miller, Michael Blaylock, and staffers from the transit planning and operations depts. The result of these meetings has been an early 2008 application for federal grant funding for the Springfield trolley route, set to begin in Fall 2009."

While JTA's faux trolley to be is not an optimal form of transit, a service similar to the line that operates in Riverside could work well for the neighborhood. I would encourage you meet with some of the members of MetroJacksonville to discuss routing and establish a system that could feed into possible rail development. I would also highly encourage SPAR to support rail in Jacksonville. 

"The need for increased density is something SPAR has understood since taking part in the Retail Development Task Force meetings in Summer/Fall 2006 ….Retail attraction is not just based on quantity of numbers, but quality of numbers… many community members don't understand the importance of density and demographics.. Another thing that many don't want to accept is that density doesn't happen overnight, or with the wave of a magic wand - it takes time, and developers."

Density may not occur overnight, but there is no question that some aspects of the current overlay are counterproductive to neighborhood development. Density does not have to occur only at the hands of developers. The promotion of conversion of residential structures to single-family homes destroys density.

Duplexes, townhomes, and apartments do not diminish property values and they are a necessary part of dense urban living. Why not permit people who purchase a long vacant structure to keep it a multi-unit property? People are forced to put a second door on their exterior if their home was once a duplex -- why not encourage those properties to remain or be converted back into duplexes? This is a pro density policy that does not require developers, is beneficial for the neighborhood, and in no way destroys the historic fabric of the community.

The overlay needs further revision to address live-work units and other urban hybrids. Otherwise, we slow developers and renovators by making them go through the PUD process. It also makes the neighborhood appear as though our leadership is not keeping on the cusp of development trends.

Louise has bragged before that Springfield is becoming less dense with larger single-family homes. She may have seen the light on urban density issues since, but the attitude remains pervasive in the neighborhood and among some of its leaders.

Your "quality of numbers" argument brings up another problem. Historic Springfield has a population of 6,000. Many national retailers and service providers need a service base of 20-30,000 to invest in a neighborhood. Springfield's retail base will therefore always be dependent on our surrounding neighborhoods. There are very successful businesses that are currently working on Main that draw from the entirety of the surrounding area. They serve the needs of the actual, not perceived or target-surveyed community. (For example, the MetroEdge study indicated that Springfield currently had all of the restaurants that the immediate community could support.)

If SPAR's development goal is to take Springfield as an isolated island of people with professional incomes and make it an upscale destination, then it would need to attract boutique retail, hipster bars, art galleries, and restaurants that offer something unique. Suburban standards and national retailers will not draw people from San Marco, Riverside, Avondale, or the suburbs. The start up costs of these businesses are high, especially when shouldering renovations costs.  Hence, without concrete small business funding vehicles, cheaper commercial rents, and susbtantial owner investment in the existing commercial fabric, this is economically difficult to achieve within 5 years.

SPAR's immediate development goals need to be "urban scale," not just "upscale"

"SPAR has been suggesting, for at least 2 years, that NOW is the time to establish a BID for the commercial corridors. It hasn't for two reasons:
1. The political climate in Jacksonville makes it unlikely that Springfield would get the support to get such an endeavor passed, and;
2. Springfield small businesses do not support the extra expense."

This neighborhood counts as residents at least: one active registered lobbyist, two individuals with former lobbying and/or community organizing experience, one with state legislative experience, two professional grant writers and professional fundraisers, three developers, and umpteen lawyers, bankers, and business people. SPAR is wasting the resources of many neighborhood talents by failing to engage the community.

At this point, SPAR needs to decide if it wants to become a CDO and shift its focus or if it wants to maintain its current structure and mission and structure. It is obvious that the organization has moved away from preservation as a chief objective, leaving a huge void that I hope another organization can fill.


Other than your post, I've seen little evidence that anyone gives a thought to the perception of Springfield by those outside the community! Well they should, as Springfield is not a self-supporting island.

SPAR has some significant self-created handicaps of negative perception to overcome within the city and among local business owners and developers. They would do well to acknowledge and address these rather than dismissing criticism as the product of people not committed to their neighborhood.

People who have invested in homes and businesses here care deeply about the perception of this neighborhood to outsiders. SPAR speaks for Springfield in many venues; we have a vested interest in making sure the organization meets its goals, acts ethically, spends donated funds wisely, represents the interests of the whole neighborhood, and supports the best possible development plan for the area.

Very well said JBD. The dismissive attitude that some of the board members have taken must end.

Excellent post JBD, I don;t think anyone has summed it up so well in one post!!!

JBD, recently while inquiring about the status of board members, and the decisions of appointments vs elections, it was suggested that one such appointment would be Dr Abdullah, or someone of her choosing.

This is the sort of appointment I am good with.

I can also say, about a year an a half ago, I arranged a meeting with people from Corrine Browns office to talk about Hogans creek and transit issues. The Congresswoman now sits in a position that could very much help Jacksonville get significant spending on rail, should the city simply push for it. When I arranged this meeting, I invited several board members of MetroJacksonville as well. I did this as a SPAR board member.

Yes, I remember this.  We had a few MetroJacksonville guys at that meeting. We stand in a unique position with rail funding since the concept has the backing of Corrine Brown and John Mica.  Unfortunely, we're still fighting to get city leaders on board.

DTP: You have a solid record of service on behlaf of urban parks and transit issues.

I agree that the political climate is likely to improve for rail projects. Many people have worked hard to lay a great foundation for rail in Jacksonville, but the city and some leaders at JTA do remain skeptical and slow to act. Perhaps if the city and JTA are shown the money available they will take an increased interest in some of the fantastc available proposals. We're on it.

I believe it isnt about knowing everything. Its about trying to help put people that DO KNOW something in a position to make things happen. Lake, Lunican, FSUJax, Ock, and several others are knowledgable, passionate advocates. If I can help by arranging a meeting or getting them on an adgenda for a civic organization like CPAC, I am going to do that if I am able.

Louise, Jack, and a couple of others on the SPAR board are very good at doing this. Where they fall down is in the knick knacky, everyday procedural stuff that people here are paying attention to. I stated in an email to the board that I believe SPAR is doing more good now than it has since I have been around Springfield, but in regards to brushing off the critics, they do so at the risk of the organization. As the person who nominated AlexS to the board, I take his resignation personally, and hate to see them needlessly shooting themselves in the foot. Elections and By-laws are a tedious, but necessary step to a larger picture.

SPAR can fix this. Relativly easily if they so choose. We aren't talking about earth rattling things here. Hold elections. Get the terms sorted out and on the record, and follow its own by by-laws. And above all, include the community as much as possible. Give us an organization we can root for. SPAR will never be able to make everyone happy, but it shouldnt give up completely either.

As an example of thinking about issues of connectivity, clustering, and transit in the context of comprehensive development plans, the following is an excellent post from thelakelander in another thread when asked to identify a cluster development plan for downtown JAX:

Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2008, 01:27:27 PM
My main focus would be to create a vibrant pedestrian oriented atmosphere.  Imo, its easier to get 3 or 4 blocks working than it is to immediately tackle two square miles.  I believe this can be done with better use of what we already have in place. 

The heart of the Northbank between the Landing and Hemming Plaza would be my starting spot.  Instead of streetscapes, pocket parks, kiddie fountains and studies, I'd spend more time figuring out how to squeeze more vibrant use out of what's there already and encourage infill in between.  This could include giving tax breaks/incentives to building owners who flip their street level interior uses inside out, selling off city owned property in the core and working with JTA to make better use of the skyway stations.  It could also include removing city offices out specific first floor locations of public buildings and dedicating the space for retail/cultural uses.  To help fund public improvements I'd sell off the land underneath the Landing (provided Sleiman immediately moves forward with opening the courtyard up to Laura and flipping retail spaces to face Independent Drive).  I'd also issue affordable RFPs to rid the city of underutilized properties like the Snyder Memorial.  The money made from this pot would then go to help fund components of a long term Downtown Master Plan (ex. wayfaring signage, better lighting, grants/loans to refurbish historic structures, cleaning Hemming Plaza, building out the base of the library parking garage and then giving out cheap leasing rates to get it filled, etc.).

In the meantime, this does not mean I'd ignore the rest of the area.  There should be something set in place to make sure that every single private sector project in downtown's boundaries fit into the long term vision of the Downtown Master Plan.  So, say you're FCCJ, JTA or anyone else with plans to expand or build new facilities.  You can bet your bottom dollar there will be heavy public influence to make sure your use is designed to add life to the street.  This means, no more LaVilla 3's would get any where near final approval without properly addressing the street.  If you're SPAR or any other neighborhood group.  You can bet City Hall will be at your planning sessions to make sure connectivity will happen with the downtown core.

So what is SPAR's take on Springfield?

Dan, that's pretty much what the issue is, and what has most of us so upset...that even though we feel that overall, spar is doing good...but how they're manipulating the positioning of board members and turning their backs to the membership/community, isn't good at all...and in all honesty, if the board doesn't work to fix this, it could indeed, lend itself to the demise of the organization's credibility and overall stability.

This has been a wonderful discussion today.

JBD, thank you for singing the same song! I hope your suggestion of appointing integral people from Springfield-connective orgs is taken better from you than it has been from SPAR, DTP, or myself. Perhaps you should volunteer to fill AlexS' vacant spot?

Quote from: zoo on November 26, 2008, 08:48:09 AM
JBD, thank you for singing the same song! I hope your suggestion of appointing integral people from Springfield-connective orgs is taken better from you than it has been from SPAR, DTP, or myself. Perhaps you should volunteer to fill AlexS' vacant spot?

Zoo, once again, I think you've missed something.  For starters, there has always been the ability for SPAR Council to appoint up to four board members.  Those positions were for getting various talent or representatives from various other organizations on board when needed.  Our issues are not with that idea, but the others issues that have been brought up here that you seem to keep dismissing.

Besides, I now believe that it was a mistake to allow any appointed board members. (other than to replace a member resigning.)  To begin with, those appointments have never really been used the way they were intended, even from the first board meeting of the “new” SPAR Council. Then, even with the option of appointing four board members, we have been told it was not enough.  So, rather than appointments to the board, the idea of an advisory board makes much more sense to me.  This allows for getting the talent the organization needs without requiring this large commitment of three years or more on the board, having to attend every meeting, ETC.  It would seem that your goal of having the "right" people involved would be served better through an advisory board as one set of experts could be involved in one project and a whole new set of experts for the next one.  Easier to get the best talent right when you need it.

Overall, You are not singing the same song as JBD.  Some of the words may be the same, but the tune is completely different.  And why would anyone want to take AlexS’s board position?  So they could be ridiculed and threatened if they happen to be a voice of dissent to the executive committee?  And, I have to ask, have you been appointed yet?  You do seem like you would fit right in.

Quoterainbows beaming out of the asses of unicorns

So THAT explains what I saw down at Hogans Creek and Beaver...

Damn! Wow!

Just Damn!

Damn!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: zoo on November 26, 2008, 08:48:09 AM
JBD, thank you for singing the same song! I hope your suggestion of appointing integral people from Springfield-connective orgs is taken better from you than it has been from SPAR, DTP, or myself. Perhaps you should volunteer to fill AlexS' vacant spot?

Yeah, that's funny, maybe offer a lobotomy as a side gift.  Perhaps one should start questioning why the high turnover of so many with "fresh ideas".  They (board members) can't run new officers off fast enough.  They suck them in and the minute they question anything, buh-bye.  They have the "core klan" working their own agenda, that do whatever they can to feed the rest very limited information and shut them down every time they question some of the less than ethical tactics.  These are people that can not even manage to follow the basic Robert Rules.  New board members are nothing more than same circus different clowns.

Don't forget...the meeting...the Q & A is this Thursday evening at the spar building

word.

Quote from: fsu813 on December 04, 2008, 03:12:45 PM
word.

hopefully

QuotePosted by Jaxbydefault:
SPAR Revitalization Strategy Open House
On December 16, 11 AM to 2 PM (at the SPAR building), the community is invited to the SPAR Open House to see the recommendations and maps that represent SPAR's draft revitalization and leasing strategy. At that time you will be invited to comment and make suggestions concerning the draft strategy. From the SPAR Weekly Update, 12-05-08.

The problem with this is, those of us that work during the day cannot attend.

perhaps the leasing strategy and the draft could be posted on SPARs forum?

Just like they've posted the open positions for the board.....which they said they would, but I've not seen it yet. It shouldn't be that difficult to do.

In their defense, it was indicated that the board was being told by the Governance Board what was open and who was needed at tonight's board meeting.  Perhaps they will post after that? We might all know this if they had posted the agenda for tonight's meeting as they seemed to indicate in the answers they handed out that they do......

So now they're going to hold elections on January 15th, yet the applications and/or resumes are to be in the office by the 5th? Boy, that really gives membership time to get to know those running, doesn't it? I'm also curious as to why they need a pastor/rabbi or any faith-based community liaison...for what purpose would this help with the mission? Just what mission are they on?

QuoteSPAR is soliciting nominations for specific board of director positions. The specific skills needed are those with backgrounds in accounting; commercial banking; fundraising; a church pastor, rabbi or faith-based community liaison. SPAR is looking for applicants who have these specific skills and understand what it means to serve on the board and to be accountable to the mission and needs of the organization.

SPAR will hold an election on the 15th of January at the General Meeting. Applications and resumes must be submitted by January 5, 2009

http://www.sparcouncil.org/ (http://www.sparcouncil.org/)

Well, I went ahead and put my name in for a position on the SPAR Council.  I tried to deliver a resume today in person, but the door was locked so I just shoved it through the door so someone should get it first thing.  So, who else has "thrown their hat in the ring"?

Of course, as some may not qualify per their matrix, just because you say you want to won't mean you will be on the ticket. I am not clergy, and while I am not officially in fundraising, it is something I have done a lot of.  Still, there should be four positions minimum on the ballot if they do the right thing.  I certainly could qualify for either Claude's or Barbara's slots if they have them stand for re-election as they should. Besides, has anyone seen the matrix as it was applied to the existing board?  Are they qualified per the matrix for the board either?

The board meets next Monday and will make these decissions and then a vote on Thursday.  It should prove interesting.  We will get to see if the executive committe will do the right thing or simply continue to disregard the parts of the by-laws that do not meet their needs and wants as they have been so far.

COOL , I think you would be an asset to the community . Best of luck.

a post from SPAR forum from Strider:

Re: SPAR board election 2008
Quote:
Four applications have been received for the three open SPAR Board of Director positions. The applications are being reviewed by the Governance Committee and recommendations will be made to the full board at the January meeting on Monday 1/12/09. In order to promote an open discussion and questions relating to the candidates credentials as outlined in the resumes, this will be a closed meeting. No other business will be conducted. The Slate of Candidates will be presented for approval to SPAR Members at the SPAR General Meeting on Thursday January 15th 7PM at Karpeles Museum.



OK, so I just got around to reading this today and hmmmm, the discussion about which of the four people who would like to be on the SPAR Council board is going to make it to the actual ballot is a closed meeting? So no one but the board, who has proven incapable of following it’s own by-laws, gets to even hear the discussion? And from this announcement, it seems like we, the membership, very well may not get to know who is even on the ballot until we show up for the election itself?

I suppose that they could post the minutes of the Board meeting, like they sort of indicated they did at the recent Q & A session, but gee, I never saw anything posted from the last ones except the “unofficial” ones posted by a quest, and quests are not allowed at this very important meeting.

Are the actions all of us have been discussing here on the various forums really the actions you would expect out of selfless, hard working volunteers who are honest and have integrity? Or are these actions the actions of people who have their own agenda and are taking steps to insure those they do not like and those who may have opinions that differ from their own are excluded from any decision making process.

The only reason to exclude the general membership and community guests from this very important meeting is to insure they can corrupt and control the process. I am posting this to challenge the Executive Committee to prove me wrong. Post that this meeting is now open so the membership you are supposed to represent can see how you make this very important decision and can begin to have some faith that you recognize the fact that you are here to represent them, not yourselves.

That's just wrong...and to me, nothing has changed...their behind closed door meetings just fuel suspicions.

I was at the last board meeting , they did not appear comfortable with guests . I sensed a lot of tension when I walked in , I think guests were not expected .

No, they don't like guests they don't expect...I've always gotten that impression whenever I've attended meetings too

decisions made. only 3 listed for 3 open positions so we either vote yea or nay? there really isn't any getting-to-know-the-candidate needed since this is who was picked. reminds me of my timeshare board elections.

QuoteIn response to the following notice delivered to SPAR Members by email via SPAR Weekly Update on December 12 & 19 2008 and posted on the official SPAR Website homepage, SPAR received several applications.

“SPAR is soliciting nominations for specific board of director positions. The specific skills needed are those with backgrounds in accounting; commercial banking; fundraising; a church pastor, rabbi or faith-based community liaison.  SPAR is looking for applicants who have these specific skills and understand what it means to serve on the board and to be accountable to the mission and needs of the organization. SPAR will hold an election on the 15th of January at the General Meeting.  Applications and resumes must be submitted by January 5, 2009. “

Upon review of the applications and resumes received, The SPAR Board of Directors recommends the following three individuals for approval by the membership to fill the three vacant board positions.

1) Church pastor, rabbi or faith-based community liaison

Pastor Reginald Leroy Gundy is Pastor of Mount Sinai Missionary Baptist Church and has extensive experience in community and civic organizations, counseling, coaching and special events. 

2) Accounting; commercial banking

Michael Acampora is Sr. Vice-President at Raymond James and Associates and an Investment Advisor with a background in accounting and business banking.

3) Fundraising

Marguerite Feldmann brings strong fundraising, communication credentials and volunteer recruitment experience from 30+ years work with the American Red Cross and other non-profit associations.

SPAR Members in good standing as of noon on Thursday 1/15/09 may vote to approve/not approve the slate of candidates either at the SPAR General Membership Meeting on Thursday January 15th 7PM at Karpeles Manuscript Museum, or by submitting an absentee ballot in person during regular business hours (9AM-3PM) at the SPAR Office no later than Noon on Thursday 1/15/09.

This isn't an election....what a joke

you are correct. This is the appointed to be voted on by the board members. Someone should ask them to release the names of the people running for the open seats that are to be voted on by membership.

But you are not correct:

Based on this:
Quote:
The Slate of Candidates will be presented for approval to SPAR Members at the SPAR General Meeting on Thursday January 15th 7PM at Karpeles Museum.

And this:
Quote:
Upon review of the applications and resumes received, The SPAR Board of Directors recommends the following three individuals for approval by the membership to fill the three vacant board positions.

Then this:
Quote:
SPAR Members in good standing as of noon on Thursday 1/15/09 may vote to approve/not approve the slate of candidates

To clarify from the “unofficial Board Meeting minutes: Found over at MetroJax if nowhere else.


Quote:
Governance Committee has determined that it has 10 directors and needs 5 more. They intend to fill three by appointment and 2 by election.

The three appointees will be 1.) an educator 2.) a treasurer 3.) a marketing person. Announced and voted on was the educator position. Linda Fife Shannon, of FCCJ will be one of the appointees. No mention was made about particulars of the other two.

The elected positions will be filled by election on January 15th. By Monday Jan 5th, all names for nominees must be submitted to the governance committee. On Monday January 12th board meeting, the governance committee will give a report to the board and the board will vote on nominations. There will be a general election on January 15th.


Notice that they have not included a marketing person in their latest round of “appointments”. Does that mean they have appointed someone already and not told us? And, as one person had been appointed already, then assuming the marketer has been appointed, that only leaves three left to put on the board. Also, they very generously “gave” the membership an extra board member to vote on. Of course since we are basically just approving their “appointments by default”, they really haven’t given us members anything. At all. JBM32206 is correct, it isn't an election at all.

So I went to the recent (Monday - 02/09/09) board meeting.  This was the first time the “new” board met after the “election”.  It is of interest not only for that reason, but also as a follow up on the various issues that were raised recently.

Apparently this meeting was “as soon as possible” after the election as this meeting was where the “re-organization” of the executive board took place. In the past, this special meeting was held immediately after the election as in many cases some board members were leaving and new ones coming on board.  The post election board does not seem to be following the by-laws anymore than the pre-election board did.

The Governance Committee actually decided who was going to be on the executive committee.  I don’t remember reading that in the by-laws either.  SPAR Council still has basically the same executive committee - with Jack Meeks as Treasurer (also head of the Governance Committee) , Kharis Quaintance as vice (A new addition and possibly the good one), Claude Moulton as Pres and Barbara Sweet as Secretary.  As a side note, as we all know that Claude and Barbara were supposed to be up for reelection and a quick check of the board meeting minutes show they were not simply appointed again, so apparently if you just continue to hold your office until the Governance committee decides you can stay on as President and Secretary, you do not have to be re-elected or re-appointed to the board, you automatically are.

Some of you may remember that a couple of  years ago, back when SPAR Council actually had real elections, Jennifer Holbrook was on the ballot.  She was not elected on to the board.  This was one of the reasons Louise Despain told me the board needed to be able to appoint more people, the membership could not be trusted to put the right people on the board.  So, effective on Monday, the newest board member is officially Jennifer Holbrook.  I’m sure she will fit right in.

There were a couple of good presentations.  Expect to be hit up for money soon.  And look for some campaigning for a rubber wheeled trolley on behave of  Mack as he really thinks it is a good idea.  Also look at a lot of the crime fund going towards concentrating efforts on getting Sammy’s “straightened out” so that 3rd and Main can be safe.  Perhaps if Shands didn’t think 3rd and Main was going to be safe, then they shouldn’t have entered into the contract to start with.  Of course, what if there wasn’t really a contract?

Overall, don’t look for your ideas to be brought up, discussed or acted on unless they happen to be the same as those people who are on the executive committee.   They have proven they do not have to listen to the membership and can do whatever they want to. 

If you want it to be different, all you have to do is go to meeting and speak up, both here on the forums and in person.  They had elections, such as they were, because some of you spoke up.  If there is something important to you, you must make sure you are heard loudly and often, otherwise, the SPAR Council executive committee, as has been proven, will not listen and will do whatever they wish.

The most interesting thing in this current addition of "SPAR Speak" is:

QuoteComing Soon: The SPAR General Meeting, Thursday, October 29th, 7pm, 1321 N Main St.

There will be some great presentations at the SPAR General Meeting including:

An Update on the Hogan’s Creek/Park Plan
A chance to meet the new JSO Zone Commander for Zone 1
A presentation from JTA on the great new Community Shuttle

And why is this important? Well, try this from the by-laws:

Quote
Section 6. ANNUAL MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS. Once a year during the month of October,
or as soon as practical thereafter, at a time and place designated by the Board , the membership shall
elect Directors from a slate of candidates presented by the Governance Committee of the Board and
transact any other business as may properly come before the meeting.

Of course, I guess you could say there is an out as it does sort of say as close as possible, but one would think that there would be talk about the upcoming election. Now, I know that I am, though I am a member, purposely kept out of the loop on a lot of things, like the August 7th “SPAR Speak”, but still, this is something that shouldn’t have to be hidden for any reason. In fact, after last year, it should have been yelled out about from the roof tops. But, alas, nothing, not a peep.

Yep, the current dictators at SPAR Council certainly have the best interests of “their” people at heart. We, the general public, just don’t know who those people are…it certainly isn’t us.

So...instead of an election, there will be a pep rally?

As if the last time there was a real election.... ::)  They select whom they want and maybe, just maybe they'll allow the membership to give their approval. Not that it matters, because it doesn't

Glad I live in St. Johns lol.

No...you miss a lot not being here.

We are vocal.  We are all passionate about our beliefs.  And we are fighters or we would not have chosen this place. 

We need changes here in this neighborhood.  But we need changes throughout the world, don't we?  We need to stop being so frightened of boogeymen, in whatever form they take, and realize that we are no better nor any worse than the man standing next to us.  That evil hides in sweet smelling places and good is often hidden from view.  And finally, we need to see and think for ourselves and not buy into what others tell us.

I'd like to have SPAR sit down with us and talk to us about our "sober houses" just as I would have liked for them to talk to us about our halfway house years ago.  But we were the "boogeymen" , not so pretty on the outside and scary as hell.  And then to justify their fears, they stirred hatred up against us. 

But really, none of this has anything to do with the lack of elections, by-law irregularities, except it comes from the same place of entitlement.  They are fine upstanding citizens and we are not.  End of story.  Door slams shut.  And in the meantime, countless feelings get hurt, and men, these guys whose self-esteem is in the toilet already, get to read about how their neighbors think they are vile.

Some of the finest people I have ever met have lived under a bridge. 

Anyone know why the forum part of the SPAR Council site is "is currently unavailable."  Seems a little odd is all, normally the entire site goes down, not just a part of it. 

Actually it happens quite often with the SPAR site, but no, I don't know why.

Probably needs a good cleaning..... ;D

Forum part is down just so they don't have to listen to all of the complaints! Makes perfect sense to me.....I say the natives need to get restless big time!

I say the 5 or 6 people who are constantly bashing & complaining about SPAR have thier work cut of for them.

How to create more contraversy and slanted, one-sided propaganda with the same information?

Hmmmm. Time to put thier heads together. Perhaps pull an all-nighter.

I'm all for fixing whatever problems there are. 100%.

- I'm not sold that by producing an email that has no context to it, that a problem exsits with SPAR demo'ing houses that otherwise wouldn't be or shouldn't be. Obviously. Anyone that just goes by that and assumes anything conspiratorial or devious is grasping at straws. Not saying there couldn't be something, but not based on what's come out of your mini-crusade.

- Who says SPAR has a problem "coexisting" with anyone? Besides the usual suspects. I'm sure there are some who don't like it, for whatever reason....political i assume, but there's no question more people view SPAR as a positive, a unifier, a change-maker, a news maker, and an effective tool in getting things done. The same people with, just coincindece i'm sure, past conflicts with SPAR aren't going convince anyone that SPAR is undermining the integrity of the neighborhood. Not to mention that many of these people don't even live in the 'hood.

If I thought these were problems then, hell yea, let's fix them. But from everything I see it's a handfull people not liking SPAR's agenda and making a lot of noise about it, while at the same time exaggerating any misdeeds and neglecting any positives that they are responsible for.

That's how I see it at the moment. Of course that could change. I'm certainly not 'sainting' anyone.

Quote from: fsu813 on October 20, 2009, 08:33:39 AM
I'm all for fixing whatever problems there are. 100%.

- I'm not sold that by producing an email that has no context to it, that a problem exsits with SPAR demo'ing houses that otherwise wouldn't be or should be. Obviously. Anyone that just goes by that and assumes anything conspiratorial or devious is grasping at straws. Not saying there couldn't be something, but not based on what's come out of your mini-crusade.

Perhaps you are looking at the wrong email.  We are talking about the one in which the Executive Director of SPAR is bitching and demanding that houses be demo-ed and is upset with the city officials in the historic department because they are not tearing them down at her request.

Is that the one that has "no context?" 

By "no context", while the email as written can be quite disturbing, there are still follow up questions and evaluations that need to be considered before jumping to conclusions. 

For example, I'm still waiting to see the list of buildings (and images of them) described in the email?  Are we talking about non-significant structures that may be older than 50 years or buildings that contribute to the area's architectural and historic makeup.  An example of a non historic structure could be a plain jane concrete block garage built in someone's backyard in 1958 (making it 51 years old).  Has anyone talked to Joel?  What is his response to the email?  He should be able to shed some light on this situation from his perspective since he's directly involved and is the city's preservationist.  I think this is the type of context fsu813 and many others are looking for.   This type of information can either make or break this entire argument.

I am not very good at this so I may have already sent this message though in a slightly different format.  I suggest that you go take a look at the minutes of the HPC meeting prior to this so called email and see who did and who didn't stand up for demolition.  It was a triangle between the owner of the building, HPC and Code.  It is an issue of who decides, between HPC and Code, and I have great respect for both parties.   I also suggest that the promise made when joining this web be kept and some little decency be shown.  As they say you may disagree without being disagreeable. If I have sent this twice - sorry

For what it is worth here is my statement,  I did write two letters but I am sure under the sunshine law you will be able to find them.

If that is a true email the present interpretation is incorrect  Re the Bungalow on Hubbard
Eva had been told by code that the building was not viable.  Eva did not wish to have the city take it down, it would have meant a 10,000 lien against the property.  She approached the HPC for permission to take it down herself, she did not pay the $200 for a COA.  At the meeting the HPC turned down her request for demolition, saying that code was not the decider, but an engineer’s report was required.
The next day Eva called me, she was furious angry, why?  Because Louise HAD NOT stood up at the meeting to support the request for demolition.  I told her I would look at the bungalow and take pictures and if I thought it was not safe I would write a letter to Louise and Joel.  I told her to pay $200 for a COA request and get it back on the agenda and to get an engineer’s report.  It went back on the agenda but the engineer, agreeing that the building was gone,  would write a letter for a fee of $425.  All this for a bad property, I believe its date is 1920, that was already costing money more that 5 times it s current value.
It stands next door to a restored property which is a throw away, it is sad.
As I said before when I was in the place taking photos a beam came down and I got out of there fast.  I then wrote two letters below is the one I believe I sent and I BELIEVE IN RESTORATION.
The letter

July 22nd 2009

Joel McEachin, Planning
Louise DeSpain SPAR


I write this letter in support of Eva Ayre’s request to be allowed to demolish what is left of a bungalow at 1819 Hubbard.  I say what is left because very little is left, and nothing that could be called historic.  The floors are almost non existent, the walls float away from the sides, the roof beams are severely charred from a previous fire.  It has not been a viable home for a long time now, it is hard to believe that people did exist in there within the last few years, their shower was a hose over a cinder block wall.   I am a firm believer in preservation and restoration and, never thought I would write such a letter, but in this case the building is gone.  It has not one contributing feature.
Eva bought it, and paid too much and held the mortgage, believing that she was helping a friend who said he would rebuild it.  He walked away leaving her a with a large debt.  Bringing this house back would not be a restoration but a complete rebuilding, costing well over $100,000.  The market in Springfield will not bear that kind of cost right now, so this represents severe financial hardship for Eva.
She can get an engineer to write a letter saying the building is gone, but at a cost of $425.00.  Then it would come before the committee and most probably be approved for demolition, it is such a waste of time and her money.  I went in there to take photos for Eva and while I was doing it a beam came down in the little back room, I got out of there very quickly.
Eva owns four buildings on her property, all beautifully restored and maintained, even through the worst times of blight on her particular street.  She was the only “light” around.  She is a restorer and would not seek to do this unless forced to do so, as she currently is.  Please help her.



Christine Farley
402 6th Street East
Springfield 32206


I apologize for the names contained herein but this farce has gone on long enough, Louise was caught in a triangle of code, HPC and a resident, (all good faith people) it was no win, whichever way she went she was blamed.

It is my understanding that the Vinas houses had been previously approved and came back on the agenda for some reason.











Christine Farley
402 6th Street East
Springfield 32206


I apologize for the names contained herein but this farce has gone on long enough, Louise was caught in a triangle of code, HPC and a resident, (all good faith people) it was no win, whichever way she went she was blamed.

It is my understanding that the Vinas houses had been previously approved and came back on the agenda for some reason.

Thanks for your insight Chris and welcome to Metro Jacksonville.  This is the type of credible information this topic needs to put things in their proper space, regardless of how people from opposing sides may feel.  With that said, this tends to suggest that the city's code enforcement department may be responsible for many demolitions. 

Being a property owner in the neighborhood, I can tell you that they can do just as much damage in the neighborhood, costing people a ton of money in the process.  For example, my project at 6th & Main is an active construction site with an official building permit.  Nevertheless, I've been sent nasty letters telling me to clean up the lose construction materials on the site in two weeks or less.  From a personal perspective, I can do that and it would cost me a couple of hundred dollars because I would have to do it again in another week, when the roofing guys come out.  Money doesn't grow on trees (this is a recession after all), so what do you think happened?

I took my chances on getting the project as complete as possible to pay for one site clean up as opposed to two, three weeks after their "deadline".  If I were in a situation where I had purchased a structurally unsound property but did not have the financial resources to immediately improve the site, I don't know what I would do.  Imo, when it comes to demolitions, the city and code enforcement may be the bigger player here.

I realize I will hardly be seen as a non-partisan party here as I am a former SPAR board member, and have pretty strong opinions about what Joe and Gloria are attempting to do with their "rentals", however.... it sure seems like there is a ton of posturing by everyone involved, and that both parties are fully engaged in a good old fashion pissing contest. Add to that a healthy heaping of angst ridden rabble rousing, and this whole thing is a much bigger mess than it needs to be.

It is time for the parties directly involved in this issue to sit down at a table and hash this out, and knock off this public smear fest.

Thanks Chris, for putting more insight into this little saga that was create by a single email. Your an angel.

tephen wrote
have heard conflicting stories about the building that you photographed,, and your rationale seems to be that it was an eyesore for eva and on the boundary of an already improved property.  Do you mean to imply that it should have been taken down partially because of its effect on Ayres property?
unquote


Stephen the statement above is not what was meant at all

I looked at the bungalow only on its own merits and if I thought it could be saved I would have said so.  Go look at it - buy it but it will take 55,000.  While there take a lookk at the one that Patrice Bennett restored behind the shop, much money went into it, it would not sell, it would not rent, and now it is being stolen bit by bit,  the fence has been cut to get the airconditioning equipment out and I told the HPC that I could see that one coming on the agends at some point  BUT in spite of this I said what I said about the blue bungalow based only on the fact that it is gone!
I will get the minutes of the HPC meeting

In this whole thing     HONI SOIT QUI MAL Y PENSE

Now that Chis Farley has cleared this issue up, revealing nothing devious in nature, no wrong doing, and nothing to be ashamed about, i think this issue is wrapped up with a nice little bow.

So what did we find out?

That there are a group of 5 or 6 people who are willing use information out of context, exaggerate it, twist it, make wild assumptions, & throw people under the bus to try make as much uproar as they can. They have a vendetta and aren't afraid to irresponisbley drum up contraversy, even if they have little to go on. And they certainly won't admit a mistake once they are proven to be chicken-little's.

One thing is for certain: chicken-little's have credibility issues.

"Louise complains that if he has his way Springfield will never be able to demolish historic builldings."

 Stephen, not trying to be a Azz, but, the email actually it says to demolish a house in the Historic District. To me, that is not the same.
 While I'd rather not have any demo's of any historic structures, there are a few structures I would not cry about if they dissappeared from the District.

What a shock another SPAR-defending newbie pops out of the woodwork...

I think what's going on is that COJ (and others) took notice of the uproar SPAR's actions have been creating online, and now their natural response is to deal with this the same way they deal with everything, ranging from their historical preservation mandate to their rigged internal elections.

They are here to try and stack the deck.

I think we've actually exceeded the moon river pizza thread with 0-post count newbies who all seem to know a little "too much" about this topic they've clearly registered just to post in. I think the mods should start doing IP checks on all these newbies who've mysteriously come out of the woodwork just to defend SPAR.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 20, 2009, 12:43:36 PM
What a shock another SPAR-defending newbie pops out of the woodwork...

I think what's going on is that COJ (and others) took notice of the uproar SPAR's actions have been creating online, and now their natural response is to deal with this the same way they deal with everything, ranging from their historical preservation mandate to their rigged internal elections.

They are here to try and stack the deck.

I think we've actually exceeded the moon river pizza thread with 0-post count newbies who all seem to know a little "too much" about this topic they've clearly registered just to post in. I think the mods should start doing IP checks on all these newbies who've mysteriously come out of the woodwork just to defend SPAR.

I guess you were appointed Springfield thread police while I was on hiatus? Sorry if I have a new name, I chose to retire the old one.

So, do you have anything constructive to add to all of this, or is it your sole intent to point out the new posters?

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 20, 2009, 12:43:36 PM
What a shock another SPAR-defending newbie pops out of the woodwork...

I think what's going on is that COJ (and others) took notice of the uproar SPAR's actions have been creating online, and now their natural response is to deal with this the same way they deal with everything, ranging from their historical preservation mandate to their rigged internal elections.

They are here to try and stack the deck.

I think we've actually exceeded the moon river pizza thread with 0-post count newbies who all seem to know a little "too much" about this topic they've clearly registered just to post in. I think the mods should start doing IP checks on all these newbies who've mysteriously come out of the woodwork just to defend SPAR.

Why would anyone need to investigate anyones IP addresses, my goodness.  Even if the topic may get a little heated, at the end of the day this is just a forum where people can join and leave as they want.  Nobody is on trial here, legally. ;)

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2009, 12:38:25 PM
fsu are you seriously this tone deaf?

The three or four people from spar are here basically saying 'nothing to see, move along people', and its not working.  nice try.

SPAR cannot be allowed to continue its shockingly negative actions.

For the record, I have recieved four emails from readers asking if you have a vendetta against spar because your posts are making them seem like a bunch of overconfident bigots,(my summation of the various comments) and Ive told each one that I have no idea what your real platform is.

If Im correct you are one of the true believers who bought an SRG house and were told that the neighborhood would quickly 'come around', you know, get whiter and wealthier, am I wrong about that?

Have you looked into the City's Code Enforcement Department?  To me, it seems this is where the demolition fire trail leads to.  Knowing other small property owners across town, I'd say its also bigger than Springfield.

Wow.  I don't see it how you're presenting it, which goes back to the "context" issue I mentioned earlier this morning.  Its hard to base a theory on anything out of the email that has been presented here.  In reality, SPAR has no true control over code enforcement.  Buildings are falling all over town because the city is putting property owners in a situation where the only financially sound solution (for the owner) is demolition.  Any idea on how the code enforcement departments are run in Savannah and Charleston and how those operations differ from Jacksonville's?  My guess is this has more to do with Jax's blighted building stock being destroyed than SPAR running city hall.

Its larger.  The moonscapes in Brooklyn, LaVilla, DT, the Cathedral District, the Eastside, Sugar Hill, New Springfield, fill in another neighborhood name here, are proof that the demolition issue exceeds Springfield's boundaries.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2009, 01:21:35 PM
SPAR should be providing a solution to all that.

Instead, they have used their position to decide which buildings should be demolished, apparently for financial considerations, and over the objections and opinion of the person with a college degree on the subject who was hired by the city to help make those determinations.

This is the very crux of the argument.

When it suits SPAR, the historic details are very relevant.  When it suits the financial considerations of property developers, bombs away.

In that case I take it that you will never give me a hard time over planning decisions I make at SPAR based on my Masters Degree in Urban Planning? ;)

Stephen,

your recent track record of assumptions & judgments isn't very good, this issue is case in point.

Unfortunatley, your assumptions aren't improving. You stated:

"If Im correct you are one of the true believers who bought an SRG house and were told that the neighborhood would quickly 'come around', you know, get whiter and wealthier, am I wrong about that?"

- Umm......yes, you are wrong about that. Waaaaay off. I lived in the 'hood for a over a year before my wife & I purchased a 100 year old home. Do you really think an SRG owner would have a Kanye West qoute as thier sig? I've lived in transitional neighborhoods before and am comfortable / familar with the process.


"For the record, I have recieved four emails from readers asking if you have a vendetta against spar because your posts are making them seem like a bunch of overconfident bigots,(my summation of the various comments) and Ive told each one that I have no idea what your real platform is."

- platform? jeez. I'm not a politican, I don't have a "platform". Also, my comments haven't been presumptious or authoritarian......quite the opposite. I'm in the 'don't jump to conclusions' camp. Not sure that could generate any emails, but people do bring thier own baggage to thier world perspective though. One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

Also, I had to get a COA recently. There was no mention of curtains (another attempt to exaggerate and skew, i guess). They made it pretty clear that outside changes have to be approved while inside anything goes.

When's the next MetroJax meeting? Perhaps i'll stop by and say Hi. Meet you guys formally. I'm nice.

Quote from: stephendare on October 20, 2009, 01:21:35 PM
SPAR should be providing a solution to all that.

Instead, they have used their position to decide which buildings should be demolished, apparently for financial considerations, and over the objections and opinion of the person with a college degree on the subject who was hired by the city to help make those determinations.

This is the very crux of the argument.

When it suits SPAR, the historic details are very relevant.  When it suits the financial considerations of property developers, bombs away.

Can you prove this by posting the data to back these claims up?  

1. A list of buildings demolished by SPAR (this would offer evidence of a pattern or trend).

2. How did the demolished buildings bring money to SPAR (this would directly tie SPAR financially to the pattern or trend).

3. What is Joel's opinion on these specific projects? (does he really believe no house in Springfield should be demolished, including the non contributing structures?)

This type of information would give your side of this debate more credibility because facts are facts.  As you know, when the Metro Jacksonville group officially backs a project or ideal, we cover these types of bases to shore up our argument (ex. BRT DT transit mall, commuter rail, etc.) before laying out our case.

fsu813, the next Metro Jacksonville meeting is tonight at Hola mexican restaurant on Main Street.  We'll be there from 6pm to about 9pm.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 20, 2009, 12:43:36 PM
What a shock another SPAR-defending newbie pops out of the woodwork...

I think what's going on is that COJ (and others) took notice of the uproar SPAR's actions have been creating online, and now their natural response is to deal with this the same way they deal with everything, ranging from their historical preservation mandate to their rigged internal elections.

They are here to try and stack the deck.

I think we've actually exceeded the moon river pizza thread with 0-post count newbies who all seem to know a little "too much" about this topic they've clearly registered just to post in. I think the mods should start doing IP checks on all these newbies who've mysteriously come out of the woodwork just to defend SPAR.

using the rule of you should have posted a certain number of post on things you don't care about before you can post about SPAR (would the same rule apply if they had come out bashing SPAR and had never posted before) maybe there should be a rule that says you have to had actually lived in springfield for a certain number of years before you can bash it.

I agree, I wouldn't even mind seeing FSU813 throw in his hat.  The point is...let there be ELECTIONS! 

Say what you will about Dan, he cares about this neighborhood.  Doug and Doris, they are stellar.  Ennis and Adrienne would class the place up.  Alex would make sure the research is done.  And I believe Lisa, in her way, is fair (albeit needs some education on substance abuse issues).  I would join and vote for any and all of them.

But things cannot remain as they are.  The vision for Springfield needs to take in consideration all of the people who live here, all of the businesses who operate here.  Anything less, simply will not work. 

QuoteGive Lisa Simon, Ennis Davis, Adrienne or Joe Lerner, Oak S'an, maybe even Dan Blanchard and particularly Doug VanderLaan a crack at things.

Sincere thanks for the mention, but we're not interested. The Lerner-Hyder household is currently enjoying an extended Springfield sabbatical. This neighborhood is exhausting.  :)

Tonight?

Hoped it wasn't.

Do you meet weekly or monthly?

weekly.

Is the revolt the reason the SPAR forum has not been accessible for the past couple of days?

Quote from: Johnny on October 21, 2009, 10:32:38 AM
Is the revolt the reason the SPAR forum has not been accessible for the past couple of days?

It does seem a bit odd just as things were heating up the SPAR forum board was brought down....

Quote from: JaxUnicorn on October 21, 2009, 12:33:05 PM

Quote from: Johnny on October 21, 2009, 10:32:38 AM
Is the revolt the reason the SPAR forum has not been accessible for the past couple of days?

It does seem a bit odd just as things were heating up the SPAR forum board was brought down....

I've heard in the past that senior board members were never fans of the forum and wanted it closed long ago.  Unfortunately it shows some backwards thinking and a lack of vision on their part.  I believe one of the SPAR forum's biggest value was that it provided realistic insight into the neighborhoods advantages and challenges for potential newcomers.  Myself and a few others never would have moved to Springfield without the information we gathered from honest and engaged residents on that forum.  I'd rather have new residents know exactly what they're getting into when moving to Springfield.  Because of the open discussion most newcomers realize they need to do a lot more than move in and just mow their lawns. 

Just recently a soon to be Jax resident found the forum and decided to move Springfield.  He put a contract on a house sight unseen. It's a historic house that will need significant reno.

I was very critical of the way the recent firestorm was presented by some posters on both SPAR's and MJ's forum, however, the issue presented was legitimate and deserves a response regardless of the medium it was presented.  The firestorm could have been spelled if some response was provided even if it was to meet and discuss offline (which I think would be the most appropriate solution).  A follow up could then have been posted online. 

Closing down the forum only legitimizes some of the complaints about SPAR, whether they are accurate or not.  Didn't Iran recently close down Internet service providers and cell phone communication throughout the entire country when legitimate questions were raised to their leadership?  Has it helped to legitimize government opposition in the eyes of the rest of the world?

I really have an issue with your comparison of SPAR to Iran. Don't you think that's just a bit over-the-top? Honestly?

I mean, Iran's elections are far less rigged and BS'ey than SPAR's...

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 21, 2009, 01:31:44 PM
I really have an issue with your comparison of SPAR to Iran. Don't you think that's just a bit over-the-top? Honestly?

I mean, Iran's elections are far less rigged and BS'ey than SPAR's...

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Lol.

Before anyone runs with that comparison understand that my intent was not to compare SPAR and Iran.  It was to point out how actions can affect the perception of legitimacy. 

I am neither a critic or defender of SPAR about the issues that have arisen recently.  I believe its a legitimate question that deserves a response.  I am only critical about them closing their forum.


disclosure:  I am a paying member of SPAR and, like others, am undecided about renewing.

Quote from: untarded on October 21, 2009, 01:26:08 PM
I've heard in the past that senior board members were never fans of the forum and wanted it closed long ago.  Unfortunately it shows some backwards thinking and a lack of vision on their part.  I believe one of the SPAR forum's biggest value was that it provided realistic insight into the neighborhoods advantages and challenges for potential newcomers.

Closing down the forum only legitimizes some of the complaints about SPAR, whether they are accurate or not. 

It is correct that opinions have been split among the SPAR board about the forum board for a long time. Ideas have been kicked around if posting by full name should be required, only SPAR members should be allowed to post or only certain portions of the forum should be kept. Much discussion was spent on this and it seems to get revisited.

Not quite sure about "senior board members" as all board members are equal and elected for a maximum of two three year terms. Perhaps you mean the Executive Board members.

Based on inquiry I have heard that the SPAR forum has not been permanently shut down, but is down due to technical issues. We will see ...

Of course if SPAR would announce such things through either a notice on the forum itself, the main web site, this forum or Facebook then not everyone would have to speculate about the reasons and think of conspiracy.

Quote from: untarded on October 21, 2009, 01:26:08 PM

Quote from: JaxUnicorn on October 21, 2009, 12:33:05 PM

Quote from: Johnny on October 21, 2009, 10:32:38 AM
Is the revolt the reason the SPAR forum has not been accessible for the past couple of days?

It does seem a bit odd just as things were heating up the SPAR forum board was brought down....

I've heard in the past that senior board members were never fans of the forum and wanted it closed long ago.  Unfortunately it shows some backwards thinking and a lack of vision on their part.  I believe one of the SPAR forum's biggest value was that it provided realistic insight into the neighborhoods advantages and challenges for potential newcomers.  Myself and a few others never would have moved to Springfield without the information we gathered from honest and engaged residents on that forum.  I'd rather have new residents know exactly what they're getting into when moving to Springfield.  Because of the open discussion most newcomers realize they need to do a lot more than move in and just mow their lawns. 

Just recently a soon to be Jax resident found the forum and decided to move Springfield.  He put a contract on a house sight unseen. It's a historic house that will need significant reno.

I was very critical of the way the recent firestorm was presented by some posters on both SPAR's and MJ's forum, however, the issue presented was legitimate and deserves a response regardless of the medium it was presented.  The firestorm could have been spelled if some response was provided even if it was to meet and discuss offline (which I think would be the most appropriate solution).  A follow up could then have been posted online. 

Closing down the forum only legitimizes some of the complaints about SPAR, whether they are accurate or not.  Didn't Iran recently close down Internet service providers and cell phone communication throughout the entire country when legitimate questions were raised to their leadership?  Has it helped to legitimize government opposition in the eyes of the rest of the world?

As a responsible party in this "outing", I agree with you.  It most certainly could have been handled better, quieter, with more dignity IF commication with SPAR or the executive board was at all possible.  Joe went in to talk to Louise about the Thrift Store and about the sober houses and that turned into Louise's claims that Joe physically threatened her (laughable to anyone who knows Joe) and a banning of Joe from SPAR's headquarters.  Additionally, Joe was advised by SPAR's legal council, the president, that he was to have no contact with SPAR staff members.

I gotta ask...what's a person to do?

Claude's letter:

Quote
August 29, 2009

Address

It was just reported to me that you verbally assaulted Lousie DeSpain at the SPAR office this morning, putting her in real fear of physical assault.  This was witnessed by several persons.

This is to advise you that you are prohibited from entering the SPAR building or having any contact with SPAR staff.  If you make any attempt to enter the SPAR building, the Sheriff's office will be contacted immediately to have you ejected as a trespasser.  We will also seek a restraining order against you.

GOVERN YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY.

Very truly yours,
Claude Moulton, president

And by the way, Joe is a dues paying member of SPAR.

Wow!!! I leave town for 3 months and all h-lls breaks loose

I did approach a well-connected person in the neighborhood and said that Springfield was going to get dragged through the mud unless things change. 

All I got was a shrug.

And things have only gotten worse.

We have a well-connected person in Springfield?  ;D

If someone is a dues paying member of SPAR how can they keep him from entering the SPAR building.If he pays his dues he is part owner of SPAR?????

I suppose by saying he threatened a little old lady.

Quote from: sheclown on October 21, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
I did approach a well-connected person in the neighborhood and said that Springfield was going to get dragged through the mud unless things change. 

All I got was a shrug.

Can that be translated into words which a simple guy like me can understand ?
What needs to change ?
What exactly means "Springfield gets dragged through the mud" ?

Does SPAR have to abide by the Florida sunshine laws the same as HOA's

Quote from: Matt McVay on October 21, 2009, 04:36:33 PM
Communication is definitely not their strength and quite possibly the cause for a lot of issues.  The newsletter is nice, but it would be good to have an HPC meeting report and the arguments SPAR made for or against a COA or Demo, etc.  They need to make the organization more transparent.

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. 

Quote from: samiam on October 21, 2009, 04:46:40 PM
Does SPAR have to abide by the Florida sunshine laws the same as HOA's

No. It's covered by Florida Statutes Chapter 617. CORPORATIONS NOT FOR PROFIT.

When we found out that SPAR, especially Louise and Claude, were meeting with Gaffney and the city in an attempt to draft legislation, or modify legislation that would in essence redefine “family” in an attempt to outlaw our rentals,  we knew we were headed down a bad road.  It is a foolish move on SPAR’s part, a losing battle that puts this neighborhood, once again, in front of city council waving dirty underwear for the world to see.  Jason Teal, from General Counsel,  tried to tell them this back in July, and they banned him from the neighborhood.

I did look around for help in approaching SPAR.  I had hoped someone would stop them from walking down this path.   But really, who wants to deal with this?   I couldn’t get anyone’s attention.

Fast forward and confirmation is given to me by the city that something is headed for city council.  I had no choice but to order copies of emails to the city officials to try and figure out what is going on, since we haven’t heard from Gaffney nor any of the other players.

It was during the search for information about the new legislation that we came upon Louise’s email.

We have long known that SPAR has ceased to be a friend to old houses.  We have also known that the executive board is acting as if it answers to no one.  The current “knock-em-down” email just restated the obvious.  We have stated on numerous occasions that SPAR ought to be more concerned about historic preservation than a personal agenda against me and Joe for winning the half house battle and more importantly for having the gonads to question their No Election/Stinkin’ Bylaw problems of last year.

This email got everyone’s attention.

We have a problem.  We need to deal with it.  If we don’t deal with it now, we will deal with it in front of city council, in the Folio, in federal court.   

It can get worse.

SPAR's emails are available if they are communicating with someone with the city.

It seems to me your relishing the role of mud slinger.

Also, fwiw, I looked into the issue of changing the number of people who can live in a house. I was told that there is no such effort, they are simply looking to have the city enforce its own laws at this point.

Quote from: Dan B on October 21, 2009, 05:14:07 PM
It seems to me your relishing the role of mud slinger.

Also, fwiw, I looked into the issue of changing the number of people who can live in a house. I was told that there is no such effort, they are simply looking to have the city enforce its own laws at this point.

Why would this entail additional legislation? 

Quote from: sheclown on October 21, 2009, 05:12:14 PM
Jason Teal, from General Counsel,  tried to tell them this back in July, and they banned him from the neighborhood.

we can't get rid of hookers and dealers on the corners and thugs slithering over from jefferson street but we can somehow keep Jason out of the neighborhood??

Quote from: Dan B on October 21, 2009, 05:14:07 PM
It seems to me your relishing the role of mud slinger.

Dan...folks pretty much always know where they stand with me.  I'm a lousy poker player and I wear my heart on my sleeve.

I wish things weren't the way they are here in Springfield.    How can anyone think it is enjoyable to be held in such contempt?

Imagine walking into a room knowing that everyone is talking about you and speaking about you behind your back.  Calling you all manner of vile names.

Joe helps me with that.  The first time I went to a SPAR board meeting, I was terrified.  I walked in and everyone stared.  I looked over at Joe, cool cucumber.  Joe has taught me that I can go anywhere and if people don’t accept me then it is their problem, not mine. He is the bravest man I have ever met.  He has also taught me that if I let people get to me, I immediately lose.

But to answer your question, yeah, I laughed like hell when I found that email

too bad some feel the need to "drag Springfield through the mud".

if anyone's noticed, Channel 4 News has had 2 positive reports on the neighborhood in the past 2 weeks.

how about people keep thier personal arguments / issues / agendas to themselves. involving everyone else (ie, bashing on online forums) just makes things worse. people only hear part of the story. people pick sides. it's just a mess.

It isn't a personal argument.  It affects the whole neighborhood, potentially the whole city. 

It affects many lives.

Quote from: Dan B on October 21, 2009, 05:14:07 PM
It seems to me your relishing the role of mud slinger.

Also, fwiw, I looked into the issue of changing the number of people who can live in a house. I was told that there is no such effort, they are simply looking to have the city enforce its own laws at this point.

Another SPAR-defending newbie...hmm

Quote from: stephendare on October 21, 2009, 07:10:15 PM
nah.  its the same guy you identified last time.  For whatever reasons he changed his screen name again.

You can tell by the tone and assumptiveness.

Or...maybe it's not a guy at all?  ;)  ;D

It's Dan.  He's okay and entitled to his opinion, although quite often he's wrong. ;D

He's not a bogus screen name.

Quotehow about people keep thier personal arguments / issues / agendas to themselves. involving everyone else (ie, bashing on online forums) just makes things worse. people only hear part of the story. people pick sides. it's just a mess

.

I, for one, will be happy to comply with that when SPAR Council starts using the truth about things rather than lies and innuendo, starts actually following their own laws like they seem to be insuring everyone else does, stops dragging the names of people they do not like through the mud in e-mails to city council and city officials and during meetings with those same city officials, and if the leadership of SPAR Council makes a public apology for those lies and innuendo they spread to the innocent men and women that they are trying to evict from their neighborhood.  To get any respect, SPAR Council has to first earn that respect.  They have done quite the opposite.

The three structures mentioned in the Email from Louise herself.  The justification for them so far was that a board fell out of the ceiling and Eva Ayres wanted them gone as she felt they had an impact on her property


The  above is such a distortion and completly ridiculous
Shame on you.  No battle is won with such tactics

You know the worst thing that you can do in this liffe is become boring and this just happened.

I have to agree with Chris.  Stephen, you can do better than that.  Provide the factual documented information to back your accusations.  That's what I was getting at earlier and still believe this argument needs to validate it one way or the other.

Lake, you've just invited the propogandist to re-post... AGAIN! (yawn)

Quote

QuoteJason Teal, from General Counsel,  tried to tell them this back in July, and they banned him from the neighborhood.

we can't get rid of hookers and dealers on the corners and thugs slithering over from jefferson street but we can somehow keep Jason out of the neighborhood??

"banned from the neighborhood" -- that, along with much of this thread, is hilarious.

ok Lake.

  In three years, SPAR has had over $300,000 in unexplained expenses as registered on their 990s.  Other organizations break "other"  on a schedule.  SPAR offers no explanation. 

Has anyone ever tried to get an accounting of this, members, board?  Or is the neighborhood okay with having its money so loosely handled? 

Fact is...it is hard to get information when there is no transparency.  I guess that's why there is no transparency.

 ok Zoo.

What about the petition to have Jason removed as legal counsel on this in spite of the fact that he has been involved in this from day one?  Why is Shannon Eller now writing any new legislation?

Perhaps, banned from participating in any SPAR business in the neighborhood would be more accurate.

Fact:  According to SPAR's bylaws, elections are to be held in October...

Who is running for office this year?  When are the elections?

Zoo, you're an appointed board member -- have any answers? 

There is NOTHING unexplained in the budget. Every month the board gets a full breakdown of what is happening with the budget. These mysterious "other expenses" are security fund.

Think what you will about me, but Phil Collins was the treasurer for my entire time on the board, and he can attest to the accounting from 2005-2008, which seems to be whats being called into question.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2547/4014544563_d7ba45de61_b.jpg)

As someone just following along with the conversation, what is the security fund?

A fund that was set up, though SPAR, to pay for off duty police officers to patrol Springfield.

This is where the vast majority of the money from SRG went.

Quote from: Dan B on October 22, 2009, 08:44:35 AM
There is NOTHING unexplained in the budget. Every month the board gets a full breakdown of what is happening with the budget. These mysterious "other expenses" are security fund.

Think what you will about me, but Phil Collins was the treasurer for my entire time on the board, and he can attest to the accounting from 2005-2008, which seems to be whats being called into question.

Dan, it is odd that fellow past board members have said that everyone has not been able to get the right information about this concern, as well as others.  Yes, as it appears no where else, the security fund is obviously part of that "other “ amount.  No argument there.  But, unless the security fund cost about 84K that year and 141K another year, there is still 20K to 80K worth of explaining to do.  I know Phil Collins and I also know how things are done over at SPAR Council.  I have no doubt that Phil Collins would not put up with improper activity under his watch, however I also know that it is not unreasonable that Phil Collins, even as treasurer, was kept in the dark about more than a few things.  Phil needs to speak up here if he does indeed know what the complete explanation is.

Quote from: sheclown on October 22, 2009, 07:39:48 AM
Fact:  According to SPAR's bylaws, elections are to be held in October...

Who is running for office this year?  When are the elections?

Zoo, you're an appointed board member -- have any answers? 

The security fund varied from year to year. Thats absolutely the case. Its not like there was a fixed amount in the fund, it was based on what people donated to the fund, and while its true that SRG gave the lions share, it wasn't the only one to donate money to it.

Im all for calling for accountability, but what you and Gloria are doing at this point is muckraking. Your looking for any possible impropriety to throw out there, and hope it sticks.

If you want to bash them on their preservation record, you have some strong arguments. But knock off the rest of this silliness.

We have been told that the security fund was 60 to 65K.  Perhaps Phil can confirm this number.  Like I said, still a lot of explaining left to do.

Meanwhile, Dan, lack of following the by-laws, lack of transparency and lack of elections coupled with others, not just us, saying that they can't get explanations, the lies about what the overlay says and the personal attacks against us is all just silliness?  Hmmm, interesting. 

Quote from: strider on October 22, 2009, 09:28:24 AM
We have been told that the security fund was 60 to 65K.  Perhaps Phil can confirm this number.  Like I said, still a lot of explaining left to do.

Meanwhile, Dan, lack of following the by-laws, lack of transparency and lack of elections coupled with others, not just us, saying that they can't get explanations, the lies about what the overlay says and the personal attacks against us is all just silliness?  Hmmm, interesting. 

I didn't say anything about the by-laws. I also didnt say anything about the personal attacks. I am equally frustrated at SPARs inability to follow its own by-laws. SPAR is weaker today as an organization because of this inability, and the tendency to circle the wagons when one if its own board members calls this type of stuff into question is frustrating to watch, especially when one WANTS to see the organization thrive.

It does seem to me, however, that you have made it just as personal. Pointedly so, in-fact. Threats of dragging "Springfield through the mud" is a pretty bold thing to proclaim. You can claim the high road if you want, but anyone who has any sort of knowledge of whats going on here knows your just as dirty.

The thing that nobody seems to be talking about is, this has nothing to do with the houses that were deemed legal last year. This is all over the issue of what is a legal use of a single family house.

The questions being asked right now of the city, while perhaps uncomfortable for you, and controversial to others, are legit questions raised as a direct result of your actions. You have effectively martyred yourself for the cause.

For the record, I am against any change to the number of unrelated people living in a house, because of my personal experiences in the Navy. The issue at hand is not roommates, but businesses or non-profits using single family, residentially zoned houses to house people.

Quote from: strider on October 22, 2009, 09:28:24 AM
We have been told that the security fund was 60 to 65K.  Perhaps Phil can confirm this number.  Like I said, still a lot of explaining left to do.

The security/crime fund is a variable expense. Essentially depending on how much money was donated in the previous month, that's how many hours off-duty officers will be contracted the next month. So whatever comes in, will be spent. Don't think there is any irregularity there. The 990 must have been according to guidelines as it was accepted by the state.
I agree that there may be more transparent ways in accounting to separate out restricted donations (crime fund, ARK cleanup, etc.) which are pass through and unrestricted donations used for operating expenses.

Okay, so if there are no financial irregularities on the 990s, why not just list "crime fund" or "lawn service" as expenses?  Why not do as the other community non-profits do?

How is that NOT a valid question?

Quote from: sheclown on October 22, 2009, 10:08:29 AM
Okay, so if there are no financial irregularities on the 990s, why not just list "crime fund" or "lawn service" as expenses?  Why not do as the other community non-profits do?

How is that NOT a valid question?

Sure it is. Its not the one that has been asked, but it is a valid question.

Are you offering up your guys to do this sort of work?

I think this a genral  "i don't like SPAR" thread.

Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2009, 10:49:54 AM
Regardless of anyones personal issues, almost everyone involved agrees.

Change is needed.  Whether its because of 'transparency' or 'mission' or integrity, it seems apparent that there is consensus that there is a problem--the difference simply being one of magnitude.

The tank is toxic, its time for a water change.  Seems pretty simple, and it doesnt seem  like there is a bunch to be gained by tearing each other to peices for continuing to express the common sentiment.

Should SPAR continue?

Who will lead it?

What will its Mission be?

How can the problems be solved, and who will replace the income now that the age of real estate speculation is over?

Or should this new group SHARP be left to start with a clean slate?

Stephen, tell us a little more about this new group SHARP. I've seen you mention it a few times, but haven't really heard any details. Who is it that is starting it? What will be the mission of the group? What type of skills will its members/staff have?

Just a comment about the Form 990 and why the expenses aren't brokern out...understand that the 990 is an IRS form and is not intended to replace detailed financial statements.  If an organization elects to lump everything into "Other" expenses there is nothing wrong with that per se.

Whether they should be providing detailed financial reports to their entire membership is another matter.  Some do, some don't.  Personally I think any non-profit should provide as much detail as is necessary to satisfy its members/constituents.  But I don't think their 990 is an example of something that the organization has done "wrong."

Quote from: sheclown on October 21, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
I did approach a well-connected person in the neighborhood and said that Springfield was going to get dragged through the mud unless things change.  

All I got was a shrug.

And things have only gotten worse.

i find this odd, given that you (collectively speaking) say you have such a vested interest in springfield. as someone that lives with animals, even they don't pooh or wee where they sleep and eat.  anything bad that happens in jacksonville/northeast florida already happens in springfield (ask anyone in the press, they print it so it must be so) so honestly - that's kinda like putting a flea in black pepper.
if there is such a desire for a "revolt" / changing of the guard, given that they suck at taxes, don't communicate, and are just overall no longer what's best for "springfield", why not just start your own, bigger, better, faster, more fuel efficient organization. this may come as a shock, they ain't going to change and any though that you have along those lines is truly unrealistic.  seriously, if you think that jumping up and down, holding your breath till you turn blue and pooping in your pants is going to make them - will leave you looking like a smurf with stinky pants.  i think stephen posted on one of the threads that a new group was started.  it is my understanding (and i really know nothing about spar other than the fact that they do not represent my beliefs) that they do not get government funding so the money issue will just boil down to who the new group wants to get in bed with.  
if you go to a restaurant and the service sucks and you get food poisoning over and over- really, do you keep going back?

cindi,

i've said this time & time again.

if you don't like SPAR then create your own organization. noone has been willing to put the time, effort, & money into doing so.

what does that tell you?



Stephen,

you've inferred many accusations. doesn't seem like you have any documents to back them up. these things leave paper trails which can be had.....if there's anything to find.

also, you'vbe been given legit answers to some of your questions. you just don't agree with what you hear.

Quote from: Dan B on October 22, 2009, 09:45:10 AM


I didn't say anything about the by-laws. I also didnt say anything about the personal attacks. I am equally frustrated at SPARs inability to follow its own by-laws. SPAR is weaker today as an organization because of this inability, and the tendency to circle the wagons when one if its own board members calls this type of stuff into question is frustrating to watch, especially when one WANTS to see the organization thrive.

It does seem to me, however, that you have made it just as personal. Pointedly so, in-fact. Threats of dragging "Springfield through the mud" is a pretty bold thing to proclaim. You can claim the high road if you want, but anyone who has any sort of knowledge of whats going on here knows your just as dirty.

The thing that nobody seems to be talking about is, this has nothing to do with the houses that were deemed legal last year. This is all over the issue of what is a legal use of a single family house.

The questions being asked right now of the city, while perhaps uncomfortable for you, and controversial to others, are legit questions raised as a direct result of your actions. You have effectively martyred yourself for the cause.

For the record, I am against any change to the number of unrelated people living in a house, because of my personal experiences in the Navy. The issue at hand is not roommates, but businesses or non-profits using single family, residentially zoned houses to house people.

Dan
I agree with you whole heartedly.

I will now duck as I will be jumped on now as a "newbie" or "sock puppet".  

I am just another Dan that lives in the hood.  Been here for a long time and was once on the SPAR board.

In light of what happened to the poor little girl in OP, I can't help but wonder if maybe our efforts could be of much better use than 45 pages of mud-slinging on a forum...

Quote from: Johnny on October 22, 2009, 11:27:33 AM
In light of what happened to the poor little girl in OP, I can't help but wonder if maybe our efforts could be of much better use than 45 pages of mud-slinging on a forum...

One of my coworkers said yesterday... and I quote..... "Nothing brings a community together like a child abduction".

I didn't say it.

Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2009, 11:11:53 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2009, 06:42:11 AM
I have to agree with Chris.  Stephen, you can do better than that.  Provide the factual documented information to back your accusations.  That's what I was getting at earlier and still believe this argument needs to validate it one way or the other.

Lake, I have made no accusations,  firstly.

Second, I have already substantially answered the questions you printed, which were easily taken from the various threads.

I am not the one who supported demolitions, nor was I aware that the demolitions would then be purchased by the developers in the neighborhood, and I have nothing to prove.

The appearance is there of collusion, and SPAR needs to provide the proof that there was none.

Why exactly have Louise and Claude been silent on this issue?

It seems as though a statement would have cleared this up the first day if none of this was true.

What is pissing them off is their own emails.

Why did Louise try to undercut the Historic Preservation Officer?
Why is the organization advocating the demolition of structures that the HPO deems salvageable?
Why did SPAR continue to accept money from the developers after it was clear that they were financially benefitting from SPARS support of the demolitions?  Why didnt SPAR simple let SRG administer its own 'police fund'?

Why is SPAR targetting an individual and slandering him across the city to force him to abandon his properties and investments into the neighborhood
Why is Louise similarly undermining Jason Teal because he told her the law doesnt allow her to do that?

Why is she demanding that the City Council person draft legislation which will affect the entire neighborhood, without telling anyone in the neighborhood what that is?

Why is SPAR in the business of this secrecy, negative actions, attacks, and the like?

All this controversy over these subjects, and no legitimate answers or explanations about them.

If the truth is somehow contrary to the witnesses of a dozen people and the content of the emails--which are hardly open for interpretation, why not simply explain?

In any case, there is the question of leadership.   If all this is just a figment of the imagination of so many people in both springfield and downtown, why is this organization simply letting the neighborhood polarize instead of simply coming clean, saying whats so and moving on?

I think the answers are obviousl

Stephen,

Claude and Louise are silent because every claim you've made is baseless and full of conjecture. If your "arguments" had any substantive merit they would be on the front page of MetroJacksonville right now, as I know you have tried to have them published there.

Just because something is floated out onto the internet does not mean its credible and worthy of being addressed.

If you are so sure about all of the accusations you have thrown out there, go interview Sean Kelly, Councilman Gaffney, Joel, Jason Teal and all the other actors in your play and have them go on the record to corroborate your ideas. Until then it is just baseless conjecture and not worthy of being addressed.

If you truly care about the well being of Springfield, go all in on the formation of "SHARP". That would be a lot more productive for the community than going on an anti-SPAR witch hunt and trying to draw negative attention to the neighborhood.

stephen,

you must have been good at the early 90's video game "Deflector".

Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2009, 11:53:44 AM
jth.  If by 'baseless' you mean supported by their personal emails, and the direct witness of dozens of people, then I concur.  Obviously that whole silly floating in the internet thing is kindof important to them since they shut down your own forum to prevent people from talking about it anymore.

There was discussion within our board as to whether to print on the front page, not really any of your business, btw..  But I concurred with the opinion that it was being substantively handled in our forums which have heavy readership.  Unlike your fantasy version where there was an 'attempt' to print something that was denied, it simply isnt at that point yet.   So, while im sure the arthur conan doyle novels are interesting, you should read them closer.  Sherlock, you arent.

As an employee of SPAR, thanks for your input.  What, the receptionist was too busy to type up something?

The real answer is that Louise and Claude cannot answer these questions.  Nice try jeremy, but FAIL.

There was no discussion within the board of MetroJacksonville whether or not to print the information on the front page. You wanted to put the information there and the others thought it was baseless and without factual evidence. I was told this firsthand by someone who would know.

Classy post by the way.

I would like to see factual documentation that Stephen is boring. ;D

Quote from: danno on October 22, 2009, 11:26:35 AM

Quote from: Dan B on October 22, 2009, 09:45:10 AM


I didn't say anything about the by-laws. I also didnt say anything about the personal attacks. I am equally frustrated at SPARs inability to follow its own by-laws. SPAR is weaker today as an organization because of this inability, and the tendency to circle the wagons when one if its own board members calls this type of stuff into question is frustrating to watch, especially when one WANTS to see the organization thrive.

It does seem to me, however, that you have made it just as personal. Pointedly so, in-fact. Threats of dragging "Springfield through the mud" is a pretty bold thing to proclaim. You can claim the high road if you want, but anyone who has any sort of knowledge of whats going on here knows your just as dirty.

The thing that nobody seems to be talking about is, this has nothing to do with the houses that were deemed legal last year. This is all over the issue of what is a legal use of a single family house.

The questions being asked right now of the city, while perhaps uncomfortable for you, and controversial to others, are legit questions raised as a direct result of your actions. You have effectively martyred yourself for the cause.

For the record, I am against any change to the number of unrelated people living in a house, because of my personal experiences in the Navy. The issue at hand is not roommates, but businesses or non-profits using single family, residentially zoned houses to house people.

Dan
I agree with you whole heartedly.

I will now duck as I will be jumped on now as a "newbie" or "sock puppet".  

I am just another Dan that lives in the hood.  Been here for a long time and was once on the SPAR board.

Hey Danno! And while you may be accused of being a newbie, this is only because you havent posted regularly since MetJax days, but I think most on here remember you fondly!

Hooplady, if you are who I think you are, and you say that there is nothing wrong with the 990s, then I will close my mouth on this after I make one last statement.

Some of you, who have been on the board, have said in private that you are concerned about the muddy record-keeping.  I understand not wanting to discuss it here, but you need to make sure that financial records, of all things, are perfectly clear.  Do it in the privacy of the SPAR building, if you want, but do it and don't let fear or intimidation keep you from the records.

If this had been done years ago, when the concerns were first brought up, it would not be an issue now.

There is absolutely nothing wrong as far as the law and the IRS is concerned about listing a bunch of stuff as "Other".  The fact that most non-profits we have checked break it out proves nothing but that SPAR Council is not very transparent.  It is the circumstantial evidence that surround this issue that makes us question the easy answers.  Want this 990 issue to go away?  Provide the community to which the organization claims to represent honest answers to the questions and it can be put to bed.

So, Sheclown, I disagree with the stance that this should be handled any way but very publicly.  The 990 ‘s and the information they are based on are indeed public record and everyone who SPAR Council claims to represent should have full access to that information.  Much of this kind of stuff (not being transparent) is done without malice, to that I will agree.  It doesn’t make it right and it certainly opens everything up to a negative interpretation.  And Alex, someone once on  the board told me those security fund numbers recently.  If they are incorrect, please provide the correct numbers.   

Quote from: sheclown on October 22, 2009, 12:23:25 PM
Hooplady, if you are who I think you are, and you say that there is nothing wrong with the 990s, then I will close my mouth on this after I make one last statement.

Some of you, who have been on the board, have said in private that you are concerned about the muddy record-keeping.  I understand not wanting to discuss it here, but you need to make sure that financial records, of all things, are perfectly clear.  Do it in the privacy of the SPAR building, if you want, but do it and don't let fear or intimidation keep you from the records.

If this had been done years ago, when the concerns were first brought up, it would not be an issue now.

Gloria, every year I was on the board one of the people I trust most in the world was working the books, and we went through yearly audits because our city grant at the time required it. This does not say that I am happy with the level or clarity of communication to the community, or how every issue is handled, but I feel pretty confident that the books were not being cooked.

I cant speak to what has happened since the spring of last year, when I stepped down due to family illnesses, but from 2005-2008, I was at almost every monthly meeting, and VERY involved int he organization.

Claude and Louise are silent on these issues because they have no good answer.  We have seen their attempts at answers before and there is seldom much truth in them. It is odd that I, for one, get dragged through the mud regularly but if I do the dragging in defense of myself and more importantly, the innocent people effected by this harassment, then I am doing wrong.  Has any of you ever gone to Louise and Claude and said, you shouldn’t say that the overlay says four or five unrelated adults can't live together in a single family house because it's not true?  How about, as code enforcement has checked that rental house three or four times, perhaps it is actually legal and we shouldn't harass the tenants anymore? I suspect the answer is no.  Rather, many of you jump on that band wagon and  promote the lies and innuendo rather than try to stop it.

Until  SPAR Council learns to begin using the truth rather than it’s lies to further whatever their current unfounded complaint is, they risk getting the community dragged through the mud.  Sheclown, for instance, has no choice.  She asks questions, gets an answer and then later learns that answer was a lie.  She cares about Springfield, but realizes that Springfield has been here a long time and it will be here a long time after we are all gone.  It can handle the mud slinging  but the innocent people who will be effected by these issues can not. We both will defend them and will do what it takes to get the truth out there.  It appears that SPAR Council may have indeed been doing more harm to this community than all the mud slinging on both sides combined.

And Stephen, I've had those kinds of phone calls from Louise myself, though not over this issue yet.

Thanks Dan.  I'm good with that.

Quote from: Dan B on October 22, 2009, 10:12:43 AM

Quote from: sheclown on October 22, 2009, 10:08:29 AM
Okay, so if there are no financial irregularities on the 990s, why not just list "crime fund" or "lawn service" as expenses?  Why not do as the other community non-profits do?

How is that NOT a valid question?

Sure it is. Its not the one that has been asked, but it is a valid question.

Are you offering up your guys to do this sort of work?

We helped in one cleanup with Doug doing Ionia Street. I think Matt McVay was running it.  It was a great experience for them, especially to go to ShantyTown afterward for the cookout and to be a part of the neighborhood.

I have volunteered them several times since, but we haven't coordinated anything and I always get the feeling that we are not wanted.  We were scheduled for the last cleanup, but then it got moved and it was too much to reorganize it for the guys again.  We have volunteered for the community garden, the one that Ray is doing.

If you do want our guys, let me know.  They want to be a part of this neighborhood.  And we would love to get involved in something positive.

Quote from: stephendare on October 22, 2009, 10:58:06 AM

Quote from: Dan B on October 22, 2009, 08:44:35 AM
There is NOTHING unexplained in the budget. Every month the board gets a full breakdown of what is happening with the budget. These mysterious "other expenses" are security fund.

Think what you will about me, but Phil Collins was the treasurer for my entire time on the board, and he can attest to the accounting from 2005-2008, which seems to be whats being called into question.

Really?  So then that would be easy to find, and account for, right?

Phils a good guy, Im sure he can tell everyone himself.

Someone emailed me and said I was being summoned.

I don't have the energy to read everything in this thread, plus I really need to get back to work, however...

- I was the Accountant for SPAR for...I don't know...2 years?
- The books were not "cooked".
- The books were audited by a CPA and found to be "A-OK"
- I'm trying to remember the whole Security Fund scenario...but I believe those funds were to be kept totally separate from the other funds...and they were.
- the Board got a financial report with individual copies passed around, every meeting, and any questions were addressed prior to the end of the meeting. This was true under my rein, and later when I became VP and someone else took over the accounting.
- I'm not on the Board anymore...I served my 3 years and retired to my chalet on Laura St.

Peace,
Phil

Quote from: Matt McVay on October 22, 2009, 01:30:52 PM
just to add, several people commented that it was great to have them there.

Thanks Matt.