SPAR revolt?

[jbm32206]

As for attacks by others, they've been and will continue to be dealt with, and you know that. As a moderator, I will not tolerate personal attacks...so yeah, I'll deal with it. You can be as shrill as you want, but I ask that you, like everyone else, refrain from making personal attacks.

Now, as a Springfield resident that's part of this movement...how was this thread started as an attempt to smear you?

[downtownparks]

Great thanks.  Although your seriously flattering yourself with a greatly exagerated sense of importance if you think this thread was started with you in mind.

I started it, so I can guarantee you that you simply are responding to imaginary attacks.

thanks.

Really APearson??? I wasnt aware we had ever exchanged posts before...

[zoo]

You did forget to mention that while the majority of the board was elected, there is no longer any requirement that there be elections anymore.  Which is sort of the entire point of this discussion.

I didn't forget to mention it. I didn't mention it because the point has been made ad infinitum, and I didn't think it needed to be mentioned AGAIN, as SPAR will be hearing concerns regarding the bylaws at the Nov 20 meeting (though that appears to be unsatisfactory to you, as well, since SPAR is not conducting this business on YOUR terms).

How many times is this point going to be re-posted and re-discussed? SPAR will be hearing your concerns ALREADY! As for what I'm stumping for:

1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

[downtownparks]

1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

A great list that everyone in the community, regardless of skin color, or economic status should be able to agree on.

[jbm32206]

Please....let's keep this thread on the topic and stay away from making it personal...it shouldn't be, and those conversations should be handled through private messaging. To make this into personal issues takes away from the topic.

[sheclown]

Sheclown, I have no interest in dealing with you.

Except...here you go.[/color]

I have stated time and again I though not holding the elections was dumb. I also told that thought to Louise. How transparent is your non-profit?

You are freakin' kidding right?  How transparent are we?  After the hounds were called out last year, we've had all government agencies stomping through our lives:  local, state, federal. 

The benefit to having our lives on public display, btw,  is that we came through clean.  Transparent, oh yeah.

[strider]

Yikes. Sounds pretty hard core... Do you feel your industry shouldn't be regulated?

Stop.  Think.  Breath.  OK, then look at the fact that 1)  We, as a non-profit, are a private non-profit and cater to a very select group unlike SPAR Council who claims to represent everyone in Springfield. 2) The fact that pretty much any agency you can think of has been called and has been in to see us sort of indicates that our "industry" is pretty well regulated. We did, by the way, pass every "inspection". 3) This past history has no bearing on this discussion except for you who wishes to smear us and therefore this little movement.  4) This discussion also has proved that SPAR Council could not stand up to the scrutiny that was brought to bare on our non-profit and the executive board knows it. 

[strider]

You did forget to mention that while the majority of the board was elected, there is no longer any requirement that there be elections anymore.  Which is sort of the entire point of this discussion.

I didn't forget to mention it. I didn't mention it because the point has been made ad infinitum, and I didn't think it needed to be mentioned AGAIN, as SPAR will be hearing concerns regarding the bylaws at the Nov 20 meeting (though that appears to be unsatisfactory to you, as well, since SPAR is not conducting this business on YOUR terms).

How many times is this point going to be re-posted and re-discussed? SPAR will be hearing your concerns ALREADY! As for what I'm stumping for:

1. A clean community
2. A safe/drug-/crime-free community (to the extent any Jax community can be crime-free)
3. A walkable community
4. A sustainable community

Yes, a very good list and a worthwhile list.  A list that everyone in Springfield can agree on. But, as pointed out to even presidential campaigns, how do you get there?  Idealistic goals are only just that, goals, and mean little without a plan and a way to achieve them.  So, if we start breaking down each of those goals to see if SPAR Council is working in a manor that will properly achieve those goals, what will we find?  Is SPAR Council actually working to achieve those goals for every resident?  Only some of them?  Are they using one of the "goals" to get rid of a group of current residents (other than criminals, of course.) because they don't want them here?  Are they using the cover of working towards these goals to achieve something else entirely?  Something the board doesn't want to discuss with the membership nor the community?

Without the transparency that we are asking for, we can not get the answers to these questions.  Without the transparency  that some on the board seem afraid of, speculation can and will run wild.  There is a possibility that all of the changes and all of the instances of ignoring the by-laws were done without malice; with good intentions, but the harder they resist a true discussion about it, the more they appear to be hiding.

You, Zoo, sort of criticized me for even bring this discussion up again.  Yet, all I did initially was make a post to try to get people to come out for a meeting.  You opened this discussion up again.   I will agree though, that it still does need to be discussed whether the November 20th meeting has been held yet or not.  The actual language used to describe the purpose of this meeting, the attitude of the executive board and the facts presented say that no change is intended.  In this case, no change means no elections and no real transparency.   There are past and current board members involved with this discussion and all agree on one thing:  SPAR Council has gone in a bad direction by eliminating elections, excluding the membership from decisions and ignoring the by-laws. 

[AlexS]

Yes, a very good list and a worthwhile list.  A list that everyone in Springfield can agree on. But, as pointed out to even presidential campaigns, how do you get there?  Idealistic goals are only just that, goals, and mean little without a plan and a way to achieve them.  So, if we start breaking down each of those goals to see if SPAR Council is working in a manor that will properly achieve those goals, what will we find?  Is SPAR Council actually working to achieve those goals for every resident?  Only some of them?  Are they using one of the "goals" to get rid of a group of current residents (other than criminals, of course.) because they don't want them here?  Are they using the cover of working towards these goals to achieve something else entirely?  Something the board doesn't want to discuss with the membership nor the community?

Without the transparency that we are asking for, we can not get the answers to these questions.  Without the transparency  that some on the board seem afraid of, speculation can and will run wild.  There is a possibility that all of the changes and all of the instances of ignoring the by-laws were done without malice; with good intentions, but the harder they resist a true discussion about it, the more they appear to be hiding.

There are past and current board members involved with this discussion and all agree on one thing:  SPAR Council has gone in a bad direction by eliminating elections, excluding the membership from decisions and ignoring the by-laws. 

Nicely put Strider. Couldn't have said it better myself.

It is important to set emotions and past differences aside and focus on the facts and underlying root causes. Only a frank and honest discussion of a diverse group will provide an actionable plan with broad support.

The issues to be addressed go way beyond SPAR, Springfield and even Jacksonville. But if we can find solutions for Springfield maybe we be an example.

Issues influencing our plans and needing to be considered are:
- downturn of the economy (recession)
- high unemployment rate of 6.5% (highest since 1994)
- dried up credit market residential and commercial
- housing bubble and high mortgage defaults (foreclosures) and declining home values
- pending healthcare bubble (this may by far exceed the 700 Bil rescue package; some estimate it around 11 tril or more)
- how does current legislature affect preserving and restoring historic structures vs. demolition
- income disparity (some can afford a $500,000 home in SPR, others barely afford rent on $15,000 annual income) yet we all live next door and share the same infrastructure and services
- perceived class war and gentrification with all it's various interpretations
- reduced budget for JSO and other city services
- which businesses do residents want here vs. which businesses are economically viable right now
- how to engage residents in open dialog, active participation and constructive criticism (say what's wrong and offer a solution)

[strider]

Thanks, AlexS.  Your list is very much part of the issue here.  We all have a very difficult road ahead of us.  We can only hope that we can get down it and back to where we want to be in a reasonable number of years. SPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.  However,  transparency, elections and the willingness to actively discuss issues are needed to achieve that.

[zoo]

SPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.

Are you kidding me?

[strider]

SPAR Council can help with that if they choose to.

Are you kidding me?

So, you don't think they can?  I guess I am guestioning if some of the board even wants to, but I believe SPAR Council as an organization can and has in the past.  Of course, I am talking about helping the entire community....

[zoo]

Honestly, Strider, I'm just getting a bit tired of the whole "community was progressing so great when we were in charge" bit. Granted, I've only been here since 2005, but when I showed up, the place still looked like hell. In the three years I have been here, there has been great positive change, in my experience for anyone that wanted to be involved (and this is your sticking point).

Since 2005, I have attended many meetings of SPAR and SAMBA, and many community events sponsored by the Mommies Group, SACARC, SRG, SIA/WC, residents, etc. Yet in that time, I never met you or sheclown. I met the SPAR boardmembers. I met the SAMBA boardmembers. I met many of the residents and businessowners. All were very welcoming to me (but you'll probably say that's because I'm white and earn a bit of money to spend/contribute, or because I'm such a simpleton, I just jumped behind their cause/methods). I met Stephen Dare, and yes, I met one or two of the others that attended your first 3 Layers meeting. But in those 3 years, and at all of those meetings, you weren't there.

It is garbage that the community is worse off for these organizations, and all of the hard work they have been doing in recent years, just because you weren't involved/leading/giving your input. Now maybe some of the orgs work was made possible by groundwork laid by HSCC, or the old SPAR, or whomever. I thank them for the early work, as I know it was every bit as difficult as work being done now.

We will have to disagree on when the community began to get "better", and we will have to disagree on our versions of what better is. To me, and to many (I guess this will come down to a contest of numbers in the end), better is now.

Step in, have a voice, attempt to make your version of positive change - I welcome it. The more people doing things for the community the better. But don't presume the community will jump on your bandwagon, and that SPAR should do the same. You can attack me if you want (and I expect if from sheclown) but I'm done with this thread.

See you on the 20th.

[RiversideGator]

It seems that if all the time and effort spent arguing over which group is better than the other was spent in buying and rehabbing buildings in Springfield, things would be a lot farther along than they are now.

[downtownparks]

As a rule I stay out of SPAR politics...

Ahhh, if only.