Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 25, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
Charitable contributions from the owners of NFL teams are a very inefficient way to redistribute wealth. They take part of the money that we give them and turn it over to recipients of their own choosing.
What we really need is something like the bounce that New Orleans got from the Saints.
Redistribute wealth?? ::) :o Lets stick to the Jags victory here... :)
A new topic might be... The Weavers Inefficient Wealth Distribution Machine.
OK, let's put it this way. If you borrow my car you should help pay for the gas.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 25, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
Charitable contributions from the owners of NFL teams are a very inefficient way to redistribute wealth. They take part of the money that we give them and turn it over to recipients of their own choosing.
What we really need is something like the bounce that New Orleans got from the Saints.
Redistribute wealth?? ::) :o Lets stick to the Jags victory here... :)
A new topic might be... The Weavers Inefficient Wealth Distribution Machine.
OK, let's put it this way. If you borrow my car you should help pay for the gas.
Perhaps... but I will pick where I fill up...
Meanwhile... back to the jags v ravens...
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 25, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
Charitable contributions from the owners of NFL teams are a very inefficient way to redistribute wealth. They take part of the money that we give them and turn it over to recipients of their own choosing.
What we really need is something like the bounce that New Orleans got from the Saints.
Redistribute wealth?? ::) :o Lets stick to the Jags victory here... :)
A new topic might be... The Weavers Inefficient Wealth Distribution Machine.
OK, let's put it this way. If you borrow my car you should help pay for the gas.
Pretty sure I bought my ticket to the Jags game so that I could go to watch a Jags game. Not really expecting anything else for my money.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 25, 2011, 04:00:01 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 25, 2011, 11:12:00 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 10:38:06 AM
Charitable contributions from the owners of NFL teams are a very inefficient way to redistribute wealth. They take part of the money that we give them and turn it over to recipients of their own choosing.
What we really need is something like the bounce that New Orleans got from the Saints.
Redistribute wealth?? ::) :o Lets stick to the Jags victory here... :)
A new topic might be... The Weavers Inefficient Wealth Distribution Machine.
OK, let's put it this way. If you borrow my car you should help pay for the gas.
Perhaps... but I will pick where I fill up...
Meanwhile... back to the jags v ravens...
As long as it's not Gate. ;)
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 25, 2011, 06:22:27 PM
Pretty sure I bought my ticket to the Jags game so that I could go to watch a Jags game. Not really expecting anything else for my money.
But I didn't go to the game and the Jags are still costing me. If you're having fun with my money, what do
I get out of it?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 25, 2011, 06:22:27 PM
Pretty sure I bought my ticket to the Jags game so that I could go to watch a Jags game. Not really expecting anything else for my money.
But I didn't go to the game and the Jags are still costing me. If you're having fun with my money, what do I get out of it?
I would argue that the Jags have brought money to the community...so if you're not supporting them, should you take advantage of the ancillary benefits of having an NFL team?
such as ?
Honestly DD Let the Jags leave town, then you will see what the benefits are. At the end of the day, the Jags are this cities identity and is responsible for alot of the growth that taking the place the 16 years. Just having a NFL team is a benefit in its self and sets you apart from the rest of the country. That alone is enough for me. I am a season ticket holder. Thats why Im a fan. I go to games and support. Im not looking them to anything for me except play ball.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 09:16:05 PM
such as ?
fine..here's one example
how much money do you think the Super Bowl brought into this community...and do you think we'd have the Adams Mark/Hyatt hotel without it?
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2011, 10:37:54 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 09:16:05 PM
such as ?
fine..here's one example
how much money do you think the Super Bowl brought into this community...and do you think we'd have the Adams Mark/Hyatt hotel without it?
+100
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 25, 2011, 06:40:49 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 25, 2011, 06:22:27 PM
Pretty sure I bought my ticket to the Jags game so that I could go to watch a Jags game. Not really expecting anything else for my money.
But I didn't go to the game and the Jags are still costing me. If you're having fun with my money, what do I get out of it?
I get what you're saying and I know we could go in circles on this (as tufsu is doing) Hard to prove that having the Hyatt is good for the city if it can only sustain itself through city subsidies and an organization like the Jags.
But can you tell me what the Saints did that you'd like to see the Jags do more of? That would probably be a better starting point for this discussion.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 26, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
But can you tell me what the Saints did that you'd like to see the Jags do more of? That would probably be a better starting point for this discussion.
In the year or two after Katrina, the Saints were generally seen as an expense that New Orleans couldn't afford anymore. Attendance was down and there was talk about moving the team to another city.
But once they got into the Super Bowl etc, the Saints became a rallying point for the city - a way for everyone to come together, leave the past behind and celebrate a new beginning.
We could use a little of that same spirit here. Maybe the Jags could help us to get it.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 25, 2011, 10:37:54 PM
do you think we'd have the Adams Mark/Hyatt hotel without it?
yes
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 06:49:41 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 26, 2011, 12:18:20 AM
But can you tell me what the Saints did that you'd like to see the Jags do more of? That would probably be a better starting point for this discussion.
In the year or two after Katrina, the Saints were generally seen as an expense that New Orleans couldn't afford anymore. Attendance was down and there was talk about moving the team to another city.
But once they got into the Super Bowl etc, the Saints became a rallying point for the city - a way for everyone to come together, leave the past behind and celebrate a new beginning.
We could use a little of that same spirit here. Maybe the Jags could help us to get it.
So all you really want is for the Jags to win the Superbowl?? Me too, buddy. me too.
However, that does nothing to support your point that the Weavers are doing less for this city than the equivalent party (the owner) from the Saints.
The owner had little to do with the civic pride that came from winning the Superbowl. I think Drew Brees had more to do with that. he moved into a historic district and restored a beautiful house and totally ingrained himself in his community. If Gabbert did the same, I'd be a fan.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 26, 2011, 09:13:16 AM
So all you really want is for the Jags to win the Superbowl?? Me too, buddy. me too.
However, that does nothing to support your point that the Weavers are doing less for this city than the equivalent party (the owner) from the Saints.
1-If it takes a Super Bowl win for us to get a lift from the Jags, then this city's investment in the Jags cannot be justified. My ambitions for the Jags are more modest than that. I was just using the Saints as an example of what a professional team might be able to do for its host city. The Cubs are losers and they still do a lot for Chicago.
2-I don't recall making any point about the Weavers doing more or less for this city the owner from the Saints.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 09:35:14 AM
2-I don't recall making any point about the Weavers doing more or less for this city the owner from the Saints.
I don't recall you making any point either.
So you want the Jags to do 'something', but you can't vocalize it in any way??
Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____
(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"
The Jags are not here to distribute wealth (enter the communism references), but if you've got a hard-working attitude and entreprenurial soul, maybe you can make some money off of them that you couldn't make with them not here. Sell shirts, hot dogs, parking... Start a not for profit that you would like them to contribute to, rather than complaining you "aren't getting yours".
Do not kid yourself, the Saints were long gone before they made it to the Superbowl. Furthermore, it's too early after their superbowl to see if the team really will support them, look at Tampa Bay as an example of the fire going out. It took an act of God to give the city a reason to rally together, which, with us having 62k+ at home games with a one win team, I don't think we need.
To get back to your statement and those of a few others; what would you like to see the Jaguars do?
I agree that probably no one knows what kind of direct positive economic impact major league sports teams have on their cities, if it exists at all. It's probably even harder to tack down the objective indirect economic stimulation they bring to the table, though a lot of folks talk about it. And there are certainly areas who get absolutely hosed. For instance Baltimore, when the Ravens convinced Marylanders to pay $200 dollars for the privilege of having (another) football team, while Art Modell gets to keep 100% of the stadium's revenue. The sports business in general can be pretty shady.
But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.
I do wish that certain things would change. For one, the blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want. The city should also replan post-game traffic direction and transportation to better connect the stadium with downtown and the urban core. Currently the system is designed to get people in and out - via car - as quickly as possible, and it's nigh on impossible to get back into downtown even if you wanted to. But these are correctable systemic problems, not problems with the Jaguars specifically.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 26, 2011, 10:04:55 AM
Quote
However, that does nothing to support your point that the Weavers are doing less for this city than the equivalent party (the owner) from the Saints.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 09:35:14 AM
2-I don't recall making any point about the Weavers doing more or less for this city the owner from the Saints.
I don't recall you making any point either.
Did you say that I had made some point about the Weavers vs the owners of the Saints, are you correcting yourself, or am I somehow misunderstanding you???
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 26, 2011, 10:04:55 AM
Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"
The problem here is that we are all paying for a benefit that cannot be quantified, or even defined.
On a dollars and cents basis, we are losing money on the Jags, so someone tell me -
If nobody watches our games and if downtown is dark during game time, what's in it for those of us who don't go to the games?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 12:25:31 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 26, 2011, 10:04:55 AM
Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"
The problem here is that we are all paying for a benefit that cannot be quantified, or even defined.
On a dollars and cents basis, we are losing money on the Jags, so someone tell me -
If nobody watches our games and if downtown is dark during game time, what's in it for those of us who don't go to the games?
RIDICULOUS. CITE, WITH LEGITIMATE SOURCES, YOU'RE LOSING CREDIBILITY. I think there are some nice homes for sale in Minnesota.
^^^Maybe you don't value my opinion, but without some substance behind these claims, I'm no longer interested in discussing.
The benefits of having the Jags here may be real, but the really important benefits are intangible.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 26, 2011, 10:43:47 AM
But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.
The blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want.
Really good points here.
Quote from: KenFSU on October 26, 2011, 12:41:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 26, 2011, 10:43:47 AM
But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.
The blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want.
Really good points here.
I am not saying I personally don't get anything out of it. I enjoy most of the games that I see on TV or hear on the radio.
I'm glad we have an NFL team here, I really am. But I still have to say that the external benefits of transit, the Jazz Festival, etc are probably easier to justify in relation to the amount of public money that is being spent on those things.
I would have expected the Saints to give up on New Orleans, or vice versa, in the years after Katrina. But for intangible reasons, it turned out to be a good thing that they stayed put.
I have the same hope for the Jags, even if they don't win a Super Bowl.
Watch this DD... This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650
This is from an EX coach...
QuoteThe Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007. We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity. This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer. One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area. None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.
http://tcjayfund.org/
Not enough?? Check this out...
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml
QuoteWeavers select 38 charities for grants
They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN
WEAVER GRANTEES
Agency Amount
Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000
Total $21 million
In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.
The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.
Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.
"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."
Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.
Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.
"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."
Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.
Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.
Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.
"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.
The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.
Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.
"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."
Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.
Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.
"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."
Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??
Clearly OWS has another place to occupy... please purchase tickets tho... :)
No argument that the sports business world is brutal and cutthroat, and only getting worse. This is a good book on the subject by John R. Gerdy and published by the University Press of Mississippi. It's pretty damning about supposed economic benefits of major league sports.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ygiy5iVC2mQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sports:+the+all-American+addiction&hl=en&ei=sUioTojmPI2TtweSkMz_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Again, though, sports aren't just an economic investment, but a cultural and quality of life one. Some things are worth spending money without expecting a monetary return.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 26, 2011, 01:55:13 PM
No argument that the sports business world is brutal and cutthroat, and only getting worse. This is a good book on the subject by John R. Gerdy and published by the University Press of Mississippi. It's pretty damning about supposed economic benefits of major league sports.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ygiy5iVC2mQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sports:+the+all-American+addiction&hl=en&ei=sUioTojmPI2TtweSkMz_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Again, though, sports aren't just an economic investment, but a cultural and quality of life one. Some things are worth spending money without expecting a monetary return.
^In other words, I don't know if it's even possible to put a monetary amount on it, but I imagine the amount the city spends on the Jaguars, mitigated by whatever direct and indirect economic benefits the team brings, and divided by the tens of thousands of people who derive benefit through attending, watching, or listening to the games, is probably comparable
per capita to other quality of life investments the city could make.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 26, 2011, 01:30:04 PM
Watch this DD... This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650
This is from an EX coach...
QuoteThe Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007. We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity. This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer. One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area. None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.
http://tcjayfund.org/
Not enough?? Check this out...
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml
QuoteWeavers select 38 charities for grants
They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN
WEAVER GRANTEES
Agency Amount
Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000
Total $21 million
In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.
The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.
Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.
"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."
Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.
Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.
"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."
Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.
Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.
Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.
"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.
The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.
Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.
"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."
Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.
Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.
"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."
Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??
Since the Romans... and probably before... goverments have "subsidized" sporting event stadiums. Many of them are mixed use... the Fl-Ga this weekend, (thousands of folks who have NO other reason to be here) Monster truck show, concerts, HS championship games, etc.
Many more than a "few rich guys" benefit from that stadium... lets start with the players and coaches, trainers, vendors, maintenance. Then there are the businesses that these folks spend their money in. Of course the charities and events sponsored by players and coaches... this goes WELL beyond the Weavers 21 million.
I understand you don't care about football in the least... that's fine. I understand there are plenty of "other" ways for the city to spend money... I get it.
The folks in Minnesota are arguing this right now. If enough people feel as you do about the subject... the Vikings will move. Simple. But have no doubt... another city... or cities... will anxiously stand in line to have a chance to build a stadium to house them.
Jacksonville is LUCKY... DAMN Lucky to have the Jags... appreciate that.
Rarely is any one QOL improvement going to give equal benefit to everyone. Bike lanes are great and we should all pay even though some do not ride bikes. Think Boat ramps, Riverwalks, even airport subsidies. If we can only invest in things everyone uses we won't invest in any QOL project. That is what investing in the NFL is.
The title of this thread should be renamed to...
"A disillusional discussion about the economic impact of the Jacksonville Jaguars team"
-Josh
First... I never implied DD was socialist for his views. His points are valid and salient. I simply disagree with his premise and apparently yours that Jacksonville gets...
Quotenothing proportional in return
Some owners and groups are able to build their own stadium... (Jerry Jones) I think thats awesome.
As far as conservative or socialist... Apparently I am as socialist as you are conservative. I guess we can put that stereotype away now... :)
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 02:50:24 PM
Im not sure what you are implying, Bridge Troll.
Are you saying that the Weavers are only contributing to Charity as a business ploy?
No... quite a way back I listed a very small slice of what the community "gets back" from the Jags and the Weavers.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 26, 2011, 01:30:04 PM
Watch this DD... This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650
This is from an EX coach...
QuoteThe Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007. We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity. This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer. One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area. None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.
http://tcjayfund.org/
Not enough?? Check this out...
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml
QuoteWeavers select 38 charities for grants
They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN
WEAVER GRANTEES
Agency Amount
Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000
Total $21 million
In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.
The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.
Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.
"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."
Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.
Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.
"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."
Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.
Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.
Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.
"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.
The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.
Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.
"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."
Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.
Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.
"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."
Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??
Somehow... I do not think any of the above are business ploys. But thats just me...
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 02:56:40 PM
And do you think that the NFL franchise is the sole source of the weaver's income?
I have no idea...
Please watch the video...
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 02:36:51 PM
The reports are saying that almost all of the stadiums will need to be replaced by 2020, so these next few years the blackmail and pressure tactics are going to probably become pretty intense.
I can definitely vouch you for that since I went to Everbank Field few weeks ago, and I saw the condition the stadium resides in... It is cracking faster than you can say crack.-Josh
Only you are talking quid pro quo arrangement with the NFL... not I.
You are a business man Stephen. You have leased space and run businesses. In the case of the Minnesota Vikings... he bought a business that was leasing the Metrodome. The place is old... it is a dump. The roof caved in last year. His lease is up this year and the facility he is leasing is substandard... by any measure. He needs a place to run his business and has informed city and state officials that if he cannot find one locally he will have to look elseware.
I am sure you have had similar circumstances in the past. The fact that we are talking about a publicly built facility makes the question of whether or not tax dollars should be spent for the facility makes the question relevant. The people (government) can decide it is not worth it... and in that case the owner has no choice but to shop for another space. The people (government) can decide it is a worthy investment and build a facility that suits the owners needs.
If you were still running a restaurant ( I wish you would BTW) you would not do so in a facility that did not suit your needs or was substandard. You would ask that the owner renovate to your standard... or move.
This is hardly blackmail... it is business.
I didn't go to the library today, I'd like to know why I have to pay for that as well.
There are lots of things - like schools - that benefit the community as a whole in addition to the people who use them directly. My house didn't burn down last year but I'm glad we have a fire dept.
If we put all of these things under a microscope and the football team comes in ahead of the library, that would surprise me.
NFL stadium have always been a sticking point with most cities. There are times the current stadium is not even paid for, and they are required to build a new one. Leaving the city screwed. I actually think this just happened recently. (the team escapes me right now.) But other than that, I do see more positive than negatives of having an NFL team for sure.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
There are lots of things - like schools - that benefit the community as a whole in addition to the people who use them directly. My house didn't burn down last year but I'm glad we have a fire dept.
If we put all of these things under a microscope and the football team comes in ahead of the library, that would surprise me.
Doesn't matter, according to the basis of your arguement. I didn't use it, I don't need it, but I'm paying for it. Fire & police are necessary for public safety, so that's a poor analogy.
Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars. Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand. My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in. It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was. It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 04:04:10 PM
http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/JacksonvilleJaguars/index.htm
QuoteJAGUARS SEEK $148 MILLION IN STADIUM UPGRADES
December 4, 2008
Copyright 2008 MediaVentures
Jacksonville, Fla. - The Jaguars want the city to spend $148 million renovating Jacksonville Municipal Stadium - more than it cost to build 15 years ago.
Mayor John Peyton said it's time to start thinking about a slew of recommendations in a 2-year-old Jaguars-commissioned architectural review, which range from repaving the parking lot to replacing seating and upgrading video equipment.
Two days ago he said a slowing economy will prevent the city from finishing the Better Jacksonville growth management plan on time. The stadium came up as he was asked him questions about the city's other infrastructure needs.
"These are 30-year-life-type deals," Peyton said of the stadium. "It's an ongoing city obligation we expect to honor."
Still, he said at this point he's unsure where the money would come from. Routine maintenance, not part of the renovation proposals, is costing the city $1 million to $1.5 million annually.
The Jaguars' report comes from sports architect HOK Sport, which helped design the stadium. It has sat virtually untouched since its February 2007 publishing.
Peyton said he has had informal discussions with Jaguars owner Wayne Weaver about the stadium. He said Weaver has been reasonable about the city's budget concerns but would like to get moving on at least $100 million of the projects.
Peyton said he is certain Weaver is committed to keeping the team in Jacksonville and that attitude isn't being used as leverage to open the city's checkbook.
The stadium cost $140 million to build in the mid-1990s. A subsequent $63 million renovation added a number of amenities including new escalators and the Bud Zone. Peyton said those were inexpensive investments that reaped dividends when the city hosted Super Bowl XXXIX. The Jaguars have made more than $20 million in lease payments since the team's inception, according to city records. That money goes into a fund that helps pay stadium debt.
so, the jaguars had paid about 20 million dollars in lease payments from the founding of the team in 1995 till 2008. Thats 13 years.
So about 1.55 million dollars per year.
In order to pay back the original construction (203 million) it would only take about 133 years for the city to recoup its investment on the sheer real estate transaction.
Im assuming that we made the additional 148 million dollars in improvements? So thats only another hundred years of lease payment to pay back.
if you count the million dollars that comes from the Jaguar Foundation, then that would cut the total down to maybe 115 years for the city to recoup the investment.
hmmm...........
hmmm.............
What kind of business arrangement were you talking about again, Bridge Troll?
You numbers here are a bit skewed.
The original build-out for the Jaguars was $121 million in 1995. Peyton added another $63 million to accommodate the Super Bowl
which in hindsight increased the seating capacity and hurt the team by raising the bar needed to avoid the blackout number.The naming rights deal has provided additional funds and advertising dollars that city has a share in + all the other events that are held in the stadium aside from the Jags games... and most of the events
except for maybe the Mosnter Truck shows wouldn't happen if not for the upgraded stadium.
At the end of the day this stadium belongs to the tax payers of Jacksonville. It will require maintenance not just to keep the Jaguars but to continue attracting everyone from Lady Gaga to Motor Cross to U2. I chalk it up to the cost of being metropolitan.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 26, 2011, 04:25:29 PM
Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars. Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand. My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in. It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was. It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)
I agree. I tell anybody that the Jaguars are our identity. " We are Jaguars" Is a very tru statement here. Before the team, people said " Jacksonville who? Where is that at? Thats not in Florida." Anytime you tell someone you are from Jax they say, " Oh yeah the Jaguars".
Quote from: duvaldude08 on October 26, 2011, 04:28:27 PM
Before the team, people said " Jacksonville who? Where is that at? Thats not in Florida." Anytime you tell someone you are from Jax they say, " Oh yeah the Jaguars".
There's a real simple explanation for this: 1:32
The advertising the city got Monday night was worth millions alone.
A 30 second spot on Monday Night Football is a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Jacksonville had a 3.5 hour advertisement.
The whole region benefits. Many Ravens fans went to St Augustine, Amelia, Jax Beach, etc. They spend money as well, talk about the city (good or bad) with their friends. Businesses see Jacksonville as a NFL city and this can help influence moves and growths.
When I made the connecting flight in Atlanta on my way home from Chicago Monday the plane was packed with Purple.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 26, 2011, 02:27:10 PM
Rarely is any one QOL improvement going to give equal benefit to everyone. Bike lanes are great and we should all pay even though some do not ride bikes. Think Boat ramps, Riverwalks, even airport subsidies. If we can only invest in things everyone uses we won't invest in any QOL project. That is what investing in the NFL is.
or how about everyone's favorite topic...transit!
fact is there is spin-off benefits that are often far more important than the direct benefits...and they are always debatable and difficult to quantify.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
The NFL is a massive, nationally tax subsidized industry that seems to generate a lot of economic activity and adds to the quality of life of sports lovers.
But at the end of the day, it is a socialized entertainment medium, and a few individuals are able to get quite rich at the taxpayers largess as a result.
Socialist? Hell, the NFL has the most capitalist mentality of any corporation you'll ever read about. They are selling a product that everyone wants, and the benefits of having it must far outweigh the negatives, or all of these cities would let the NFL walk.
The NFL asks and it gets, because no one in their right mind doesn't want to be a part of it and they'll sell their own mother's soul to get a piece.
LA has 2 private developers doing everything they can to build a stadium in hopes of luring a team. Everytime there's a leasing disagreement, the team simply points at LA and the cities cave, knowing that they're a helluva lot better off with than without.
The NFL would do just fine without any money from the cities. They would continue without a hitch. The fact that the cities pay them.... well, who's goint to say no to free money? It's not a subsidy if you don't need it. Cities are paying a pretty penny to be 1 of the 32 under the shield.
Socialist? ::)
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 26, 2011, 04:25:29 PM
Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars. Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand. My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in. It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was. It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)
Dont get me wrong, Jeffrey.
I agree with you completely. But theres no reason to pretend that the deal is anything other than what it is. The NFL is a massive, nationally tax subsidized industry that seems to generate a lot of economic activity and adds to the quality of life of sports lovers.
But at the end of the day, it is a socialized entertainment medium, and a few individuals are able to get quite rich at the taxpayers largess as a result.
I agree with you as well. I am just sure it is worth it.
I looked it up so that I was sure what it meant,
Quotecap·i·tal·ism (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
The NFL produces and distributes an amazing product. A product that is so amazing that city governments CHOOSE to finance their infrastructure in order to have them around. You're kidding yourself if you think that the NFL needs all of the money that cities contribute to these teams. If Jacksonville didn't want to pay for a stadium, then they would go to the next town that wanted the NFL and the next, and the next until they found a home. You currently have 2 developers trying to outbid each other to build the next NFL stadium. There's a team in Minnesota that is thinking of a no-vote raise in taxes to keep their team in town. Hell, even in the little town of Green Bay, WI (after using a lot of public money for a renovation) the team is able to issue worthless stocks at $200 ea. and people are lining up to buy them, just to hang them on the wall.
The NFL is so large and so marketable, that they break record after record for more money for each TV deal they negotiate - they could survive alone on TV Deals and Advertising, but who wants to be the mayor that lost the NFL? It's not a subsidy because it's unneeded. It's a total popularity contest, and that fact alone has every public official's arm tied behind his back. They don't have to pay, but they will - more and more and more. Because in the overall scheme of things, elected officials would probably rather be known as the guy who raised taxes 2% to keep the team around rather than the guy who lost an NFL team. Only one of those is forgivable (re-electable)
I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this. And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.
The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue? The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants. The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.
I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect.
And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers. And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 26, 2011, 07:55:46 PM
I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this. And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.
The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue? The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants. The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.
I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect.
And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers. And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.
Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau. The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money. Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility. it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region. BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.
Since we are talking about sports facilities... the Baseball grounds appear to have been built solely for the Suns. Worth it? What about the Arena?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 27, 2011, 06:43:06 AM
Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau. The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money. Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility. it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region. BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.
I was aware of this. The Packers are the only publicly owned franchise and were the only team during the lockout that had thier books open for the world to see. The Palace that Jerry built is another stadium that is open all the time. He hosts all types of events, has a Cowboys museum, a very large art collection, and he built his own - every dime that gets spent inside that building monday through saturday goes in JJs pocket. So you can't tell me that it can't be done.
Another thing about Cowboy Stadium is that since it's privately owned, the programming is privately done - and done to make a profit. Can you imagine all the events that would be going on at Everbank if WW had a division solely responsible for bringing events to the stadium? (and don't give me any, "That's what SMG is for crap." :) )
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Do you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?
In reality they cannot.
No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.
Here's the thing with businesses and revenue streams: when one dries up they find another or they modify the business.
ESPN used to offer free programming for the cable providers. All of their revenue was generated through ad sales. They were the first cable network to ge to the distributors and say, we are going to charge you $x/subscriber if you want to broadcast our channel - and the cable companies ate it up. When ESPN got the rights to the NFL (Mid to late 90's) They went back to the cable companies and basically bent them over. Their next contract was a 20% increase over what they were receiving, with a 20% increase each year for the next 4 years, with the understanding that if the cable operators didn't agree to those terms, ESPN would pull the programming and the terms would be almost double if they changed their mind! That's insanity, but the cable operators knew they needed ESPN, and with it, ESPN brought the NFL to cable.
That's the power of the NFL - it more than doubled the premiums ESPN was recieving over the course of 4 years.
My point is, they don't need the government. They would do just fine without. Why are they going to turn down free money?
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2011, 12:40:10 AM
Do you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?
In reality they cannot.
No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.
are you kidding...what data do you have that shows 75% of NFL revenues comes from government?
the top 2 revenue sources for the league are its TV contracts and ticket sales.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 27, 2011, 06:43:06 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 26, 2011, 07:55:46 PM
I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this. And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.
The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue? The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants. The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.
I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect.
And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers. And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.
Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau. The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money. Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility. it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region. BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.
Since we are talking about sports facilities... the Baseball grounds appear to have been built solely for the Suns. Worth it? What about the Arena?
I believe the city plans to subsidize the improvements needed for Everbank using the increased bed tax downtown.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 26, 2011, 07:45:53 PM
I looked it up so that I was sure what it meant,
Quotecap·i·tal·ism (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
The NFL produces and distributes an amazing product. A product that is so amazing that city governments CHOOSE to finance their infrastructure in order to have them around. You're kidding yourself if you think that the NFL needs all of the money that cities contribute to these teams. If Jacksonville didn't want to pay for a stadium, then they would go to the next town that wanted the NFL and the next, and the next until they found a home. You currently have 2 developers trying to outbid each other to build the next NFL stadium. There's a team in Minnesota that is thinking of a no-vote raise in taxes to keep their team in town. Hell, even in the little town of Green Bay, WI (after using a lot of public money for a renovation) the team is able to issue worthless stocks at $200 ea. and people are lining up to buy them, just to hang them on the wall.
The NFL is so large and so marketable, that they break record after record for more money for each TV deal they negotiate - they could survive alone on TV Deals and Advertising, but who wants to be the mayor that lost the NFL? It's not a subsidy because it's unneeded. It's a total popularity contest, and that fact alone has every public official's arm tied behind his back. They don't have to pay, but they will - more and more and more. Because in the overall scheme of things, elected officials would probably rather be known as the guy who raised taxes 2% to keep the team around rather than the guy who lost an NFL team. Only one of those is forgivable (re-electable)
This too rosy a depiction. The NFL keeps up its quality product - and the pricetag - by operating a total monopoly over professional football. If cities want
any professional football, they must court the NFL on the NFL's own terms. And it's not as if some other group of millionaires could just start their own competing league; whenever another league has become a threat in the past, the NFL has fought them tooth and nail, either to the point that they fold or the NFL buys them out.
Additionally, unlike other sports like baseball and hockey, and soccer and rugby in other countries, the NFL doesn't even operate a minor league; its "minor league" is college football, which is
also heavily subsidized by the schools and even taxpayers
As I say, I do think the NFL has been a great quality of life buy for Jacksonville and lots of other places. I want us to do what it takes to make the Jags a permanent, competitive franchise in this old football town. But if things continue on this path, pro football may end up being played exclusively in billion dollar, mostly taxpayer funded stadiums in the country's largest cities.
I think I disagree regarding your minor league point. If this is true then virtually every employer in the US is paying for a subsidized minor league. If you want to view a college education (including sports education) as the minor league... then it applies to everyone... not just the NFL.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 27, 2011, 09:47:09 AM
This too rosy a depiction. The NFL keeps up its quality product - and the pricetag - by operating a total monopoly over professional football. If cities want any professional football, they must court the NFL on the NFL's own terms. And it's not as if some other group of millionaires could just start their own competing league; whenever another league has become a threat in the past, the NFL has fought them tooth and nail, either to the point that they fold or the NFL buys them out.
When they were just starting out the two main leagues, the NFL and the AFL, made a business decision to merge - it was highly contested and neither leauge really wanted it, but the general sentiment was they could expand together more profitably than separately - what an understatement. In the US, the NFL is king and there isn't any competition to take the crown away. The NFL has no problem with other leagues operating - CFL, AFL, EuroLeague, UFL and even the now defunct XFL - they don't compete with the NFL, they don't take talent away from the NFL, they only reinforce the simple fact that for kids coming up, it's NFL or bust.
Quote
Additionally, unlike other sports like baseball and hockey, and soccer and rugby in other countries, the NFL doesn't even operate a minor league; its "minor league" is college football, which is also heavily subsidized by the schools and even taxpayers
The damage that football players do to their bodies from highschool on is too extreme to really maintain a minor league. That's why the NFL has no problems with all of the other football leagues. The contracts for players in the NFL are set-up on a pay-me-know system. They get huge signing bonuses and decent yearly pay. They are also unguaranteed. It's truly a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately mentality, and that's the way the business is set up. You're not on the hook for all 5-6 years of their contract, so why would you need a place to stash a player if he's not performing up to the pro-level? You don't. You cut him.
Baseball is sort of an odd-duck the way it operates. Sure, players get signing bonuses, but not nearly in the amount of the NFL guys. Once signed (typically 3-5 years, the same as the NFL), they report to their minor league affiliate and may never make the bigs, but the payday in baseball is arbitration, and they're not eligible until they've had 3 years of service (2 if they're in the top 20% or so of their position) - that's when the A-Rod money starts to come - if they've proven themselves. It's a good plan for someone that you're going to be on the hook for $30M over 4 years whether they play or not. That's why you don't get too many Jamarcus Russell / Ryan Leaf types in baseball.
QuoteAs I say, I do think the NFL has been a great quality of life buy for Jacksonville and lots of other places. I want us to do what it takes to make the Jags a permanent, competitive franchise in this old football town. But if things continue on this path, pro football may end up being played exclusively in billion dollar, mostly taxpayer funded stadiums in the country's largest cities.
I think that you're mostly right on this point, but the business model of the NFL doesn't support it. There's revenue sharing among the teams for a few reasons - it levels the playing field and gives the league parity. Sure they want LA tv money, but they're not going to sacrifice alienating a part of the country to do it - that's why it's on the cities to decide whether they want a team badly enough. I keep hearing the word, 'subsidy' thrown around with regard to the NFL stadiums. In all honest I think a better word would be ransom. The NFL doesn't need the city's money to operate. Period.
But we agree that it's a QOL issue, and these cities and counties realize that they're a lot better off with the NFL than without - so they pay the NFL the king's ransom they demand.
QuoteDo you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?
In reality they cannot.
No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.
I started to make a long post about this.. but then I erased most of it b/c it's clear you haven't studied the issue in earnest or possibly just have a pre-concieved notion of the subject that allows you to bend your opinions to match your thesis.
About 65% of an NFL team's revenue stream comes from their tv contract, not local government.
Plus, you haven't even bothered to research(admittedly) how much the city actually receives from its contracts with the various concessions and parking vendors, bed tax, surcharge on ticket sales... nor take into account the revenue brought in from the GBA(which includes FL/GA), various LiveNation events at the stadium and private functions through HomeField Events... all a result of the stadium being there.
That's not even to discuss the macro issues of the team's payroll(in a town that is starving for high paying jobs-they have a payroll that is almost twice the size of my company and our 2100 high-wage jobs), out of town guests who all spend money in town, businesses that make money from the Jaguars(there are a TON) etc.
Quote from: stephendare on October 26, 2011, 04:43:19 PM
Quote from: jandar on October 26, 2011, 04:34:49 PM
The advertising the city got Monday night was worth millions alone.
A 30 second spot on Monday Night Football is a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Jacksonville had a 3.5 hour advertisement.
The whole region benefits. Many Ravens fans went to St Augustine, Amelia, Jax Beach, etc. They spend money as well, talk about the city (good or bad) with their friends. Businesses see Jacksonville as a NFL city and this can help influence moves and growths.
Jandar, Im willing to play along here.
Fringe, the fox television show, regularly features Jacksonville as part of its storyline. Should we mail JJ Abrams a 200 million dollar check?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_(TV_series)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_(Fringe)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Fringe_Jacksonville.jpg)
I'll play along even more.
I don't care for Fringe, not my type of show, so who cares if he wants money or not, same with other movie producers.
The stadium is used by more than the Jaguars. The original 121 million could be broken down like this:
10 home games by the Jaguars, 1 FLA/GA game, 1 Gator Bowl Game. Just that alone means that of the 121 million, 100 million went to the Jaguars.
Take into consideration all of the other things, Monster truck shows, (1 almost every year since the new stadium was built as well as other things.
So lets take this formula: 10 home games, 1 monster truck, 1 gator bowl game, 1 FLA/GA game, 2 misc events per year (another college game or concert). That comes out to 80 million for the Jaguars, or 8 million a year over 10 years. Concessions and parking are paid 50% to the city, so the city makes some money back, so figure around 4-5 million a year for the first ten years the Jaguars were in existence.
Wow, thats expensive let me tell you.
How much is spent annually on Libraries that most people don't use, or on the Skyway which isn't used?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 27, 2011, 10:18:58 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on October 27, 2011, 09:47:09 AM
This too rosy a depiction. The NFL keeps up its quality product - and the pricetag - by operating a total monopoly over professional football. If cities want any professional football, they must court the NFL on the NFL's own terms. And it's not as if some other group of millionaires could just start their own competing league; whenever another league has become a threat in the past, the NFL has fought them tooth and nail, either to the point that they fold or the NFL buys them out.
When they were just starting out the two main leagues, the NFL and the AFL, made a business decision to merge - it was highly contested and neither leauge really wanted it, but the general sentiment was they could expand together more profitably than separately - what an understatement. In the US, the NFL is king and there isn't any competition to take the crown away. The NFL has no problem with other leagues operating - CFL, AFL, EuroLeague, UFL and even the now defunct XFL - they don't compete with the NFL, they don't take talent away from the NFL, they only reinforce the simple fact that for kids coming up, it's NFL or bust.
The NFL doesn't mind leagues that don't really compete with it, but it absolutely does fight to maintain its monopoly any time another league becomes a threat. This happened with the AAFC in the 1940s, the AFL in the 60s, and the USFL in the 1980s. With the AFL, NFL owners actively tried to buy out AFL owners, and the league expanded into prospective AFL markets to shut them out. In the end the leagues merged largely on the NFL's terms. With the USFL, they were taken to court and actually lost an anti-trust suit, but were only fined $3 and their competition had to fold. As such they can run up the costs.
Clearly this isn't just an NFL issue; all the Big 4 leagues are like this. But unlike baseball and hockey, which operate/partner with minor leagues, which in turn base teams in cities that don't have major league teams, the NFL uses the college football system for its developmental pool. This was what my comment about "minor leagues" was in regards to. I absolutely do not mean that a college education is "minor league" for life.
Quote from: fieldafm on October 27, 2011, 10:29:33 AM
QuoteDo you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?
In reality they cannot.
No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.
I started to make a long post about this.. but then I erased most of it b/c it's clear you haven't studied the issue in earnest or possibly just have a pre-concieved notion of the subject that allows you to bend your opinions to match your thesis.
About 65% of an NFL team's revenue stream comes from their tv contract, not local government.
Plus, you haven't even bothered to research(admittedly) how much the city actually receives from its contracts with the various concessions and parking vendors, bed tax, surcharge on ticket sales... nor take into account the revenue brought in from the GBA(which includes FL/GA), various LiveNation events at the stadium and private functions through HomeField Events... all a result of the stadium being there.
That's not even to discuss the macro issues of the team's payroll(in a town that is starving for high paying jobs-they have a payroll that is almost twice the size of my company and our 2100 high-wage jobs), out of town guests who all spend money in town, businesses that make money from the Jaguars(there are a TON) etc.
This is a good point. As opposed to other things the city could spend money on, the Jaguars (and the stadium) also directly and indirectly stimulate economic activity that can mitigate the great cost to the taxpayer. I tend to doubt it exceeds the costs by a whole lot, but that's where the quality of life benefit comes in. Especially for a mid-sized, up and coming city trying to find its identity like Jacksonville, it's hard to imagine another quality of life investment that could do so much for so many.
Quote from: stephendare on October 27, 2011, 12:09:24 PM
Well then again Jandar, it was your argument that it was worth a couple of million bucks partially because of the media exposure. If we are being even in our considerations, then wouldnt JJ Abrams, the creator of Fringe be entitled to some money as well? ;)
The city comes close to breaking even every year on the Jags. The few million it costs broken into years like I did is offset by concessions and parking.
And all of those events that you mentioned were hosted in Jacksonville before the Jaguars, without the expensive remodeling.
If JJ Abrams actually filmed in Jacksonville and requested some funding from the city, Im sure they would help.
The Gator Bowl was about to be relegated to a lower tier due to the stadium, and the FLA/GA game was about to be cancelled due to the condition of the old Gator Bowl. Many alumni from both schools wanted it moved back to home schools.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 27, 2011, 06:43:06 AM
BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.
I meant 'worthless' as they don't gain value or pay dividends. I'm sure that most Packers fans would kick me out of their house, albeit in a really nice way and probably with a to-go plate, if I called their framed stock certificate 'worthless'.
And here it comes next week:
Quote
GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP)â€"The Green Bay Packers’ stock sale may begin as early as next week.
In a letter published on the Utah Department of Commerce’s website, a law firm representing the Packers has requested feedback from state regulators on a proposed stock sale that would begin “on or around†Nov. 15. According to the document, shares may be sold online and will be more expensive than in past salesâ€"perhaps $250 each.
The Packers, the NFL’s only publicly owned team, have been planning what would be their fifth stock sale. This one would raise funds for renovations at Lambeau Field. There are 112,205 shareholders who own approximately 4.75 million shares. Shares include voting rights, but their value won’t appreciate and there are no dividends.
A team spokesman says the Packers continue to prepare for a potential stock sale and are not able to discuss specifics. It is unclear how many states the team has contacted.
The letter was reported by Bloomberg News earlier Tuesday.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on October 26, 2011, 12:25:31 PM
The problem here is that we are all paying for a benefit that cannot be quantified, or even defined.
On a dollars and cents basis, we are losing money on the Jags, so someone tell me -
If nobody watches our games and if downtown is dark during game time, what's in it for those of us who don't go to the games?
We may not ever be able to quantify the benefit of having a sports team here, but some cities are going to be in a better position to justify having pro-sports in their towns....
QuoteMiami May Lose $200M From NBA Lockout
Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:41 amWritten by: Ben Maller\0020 1973 351
LeBron James might disappear in the fourth quarter of playoff games, but should the NBA regular season vanish, a big chunk of the South Florida economy may go up in smoke.
Economists tell CBS Miami that South Florida may suffer $200 million in losses if there is no pro basketball this year. Need an example of the shortfall? CBS reports parking near the American Airlines Arena is now going for three bucks.
And the lockout will do major damage to other cities, too.
In Cleveland, WOIO reports up to 35 percent of downtown restaurants' annual revenue comes from NBA games.
Portland says no Blazers games translates to a $59 million hit, Oklahoma City claims it will lose $60 million if Kevin Durant doesn't play, and Tony Parker's Spurs are worth an astonishing $90 million to the businesses of San Antonio.
Though Miami will feel it the worst, some believe the whole reason for the lockout itself is the Heat's ability to add James and Chris Bosh last year during free agency. Small market owners want to make sure that never happens again.
Of course, it's not just local cities that will need a major league stimulus plan. Bloomberg reports that Tuesday is the day pro basketball players were supposed to get their first paychecks of the 2011-12 NBA season. With
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the games on hold, the NBA's players are missing out on an average game check of $425,000.
As a whole, the National Basketball Association has an annual revenue of about $4.3 billion, with more than $1.1 billion of that figure coming from gate receipts last season.
http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201111/south-floridas-eye-popping-economic-hoops-losses
Cities like Memphis have a lot of their own money tied up in NBA teams. At least for this year, that money appears to have been wasted.
^They're also talking about losing revenue generated by sports teams after they've spent tons money on getting the teams in the first place. And they never stop paying. No matter how expensive and "state of the art" your stadium or arena is one year, it's considered outmoded within a few decades. And the taxpayers better cough up the dough for a new one, or the team will move. The NBA is even worse about that than the other leagues.
I don't care to discuss the MLB, NBA or NHL, they don't apply to Jax, so why bother? The economics of the Jags are more than the number of games in the stadium or the number of monster truck jams or concerts at the stadium, the question to ask yourself is, if the Jags were not here, who would pick up the charitable slack? 14 million a year in charity to the local community from Wayne and Delores Weaver. Delores Weaver put up 8 million of her OWN money, not Wayne's, to buy the school in Riverside and fix it up.
Terrence Knighton was seen with Tyson Alu Alu on Tuesday night giving out dinners to 500 needy families, something Knighton wanted to do in his new city ( he is not from Jax) as a way of saying thanks and giving back. Who provides for the families in his stead otherwise? The charitable foundations ranging from Toni Boselli to former head coach, and current Giants Coach, Tom Coughlin and his Jay Fund. Who picks up the slack if all of this was somewhere else? Jax has a great thing going with the Jags, love the team or hate them year to year, they are good for Jacksonville and our community benefits in more ways than you can imagine, other than direct costs.
QuoteSince we are talking about sports facilities... the Baseball grounds appear to have been built solely for the Suns. Worth it? What about the Arena?
Baseball Grounds have been used for ACC baseball championships and you can use the stadium for other activities as well, just last month part of it was opened for the Zac Brown Band concert and concessions were sold from it before the show. The Arena is home to close to 20 high school graduations, as well as baton twirling competitions and the annual circus. A concert is put on there from time to time, but SMG manages both facilities for the City and is responsible for booking events.