Discussion about the fair share of Jaguars Economics

[duvaldude08]

Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars.  Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand.  My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in.  It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was.  It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)

I agree. I tell anybody that the Jaguars are our identity. " We are Jaguars" Is a very tru statement here. Before the team, people said " Jacksonville who? Where is that at? Thats not in Florida." Anytime you tell someone you are from Jax they say, " Oh yeah the Jaguars".

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Before the team, people said " Jacksonville who? Where is that at? Thats not in Florida." Anytime you tell someone you are from Jax they say, " Oh yeah the Jaguars".

There's a real simple explanation for this:  1:32

[jandar]

The advertising the city got Monday night was worth millions alone.
A 30 second spot on Monday Night Football is a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Jacksonville had a 3.5 hour advertisement.

The whole region benefits. Many Ravens fans went to St Augustine, Amelia, Jax Beach, etc. They spend money as well, talk about the city (good or bad) with their friends. Businesses see Jacksonville as a NFL city and this can help influence moves and growths.

[JeffreyS]

When I made the connecting flight in Atlanta on my way home from Chicago Monday the plane was packed with Purple.

[tufsu1]

Rarely is any one QOL improvement going to give equal benefit to everyone.  Bike lanes are great and we should all pay even though some do not ride bikes. Think Boat ramps, Riverwalks, even airport subsidies.  If we can only invest in things everyone uses we won't invest in any QOL project. That is what investing in the NFL is.

or how about everyone's favorite topic...transit!

fact is there is spin-off benefits that are often far more important than the direct benefits...and they are always debatable and difficult to quantify.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

The NFL is a massive, nationally tax subsidized industry that seems to generate a lot of economic activity and adds to the quality of life of sports lovers.

But at the end of the day, it is a socialized entertainment medium, and a few individuals are able to get quite rich at the taxpayers largess as a result.

Socialist?  Hell, the NFL has the most capitalist mentality of any corporation you'll ever read about.  They are selling a product that everyone wants, and the benefits of having it must far outweigh the negatives, or all of these cities would let the NFL walk. 

The NFL asks and it gets, because no one in their right mind doesn't want to be a part of it and they'll sell their own mother's soul to get a piece.

LA has 2 private developers doing everything they can to build a stadium in hopes of luring a team.  Everytime there's a leasing disagreement, the team simply points at LA and the cities cave, knowing that they're a helluva lot better off with than without. 

The NFL would do just fine without any money from the cities.  They would continue without a hitch.  The fact that the cities pay them.... well, who's goint to say no to free money?  It's not a subsidy if you don't need it.  Cities are paying a pretty penny to be 1 of the 32 under the shield.

Socialist?

[JeffreyS]

Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars.  Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand.  My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in.  It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was.  It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)

Dont get me wrong, Jeffrey.

I agree with you completely.  But theres no reason to pretend that the deal is anything other than what it is.  The NFL is a massive, nationally tax subsidized industry that seems to generate a lot of economic activity and adds to the quality of life of sports lovers.

But at the end of the day, it is a socialized entertainment medium, and a few individuals are able to get quite rich at the taxpayers largess as a result.

I agree with you as well. I am just sure it is worth it.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I looked it up so that I was sure what it meant,

cap·i·tal·ism (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

The NFL produces and distributes an amazing product.  A product that is so amazing that city governments CHOOSE to finance their infrastructure in order to have them around.  You're kidding yourself if you think that the NFL needs all of the money that cities contribute to these teams.  If Jacksonville didn't want to pay for a stadium, then they would go to the next town that wanted the NFL and the next, and the next until they found a home.  You currently have 2 developers trying to outbid each other to build the next NFL stadium.  There's a team in Minnesota that is thinking of a no-vote raise in taxes to keep their team in town.  Hell, even in the little town of Green Bay, WI (after using a lot of public money for a renovation) the team is able to issue worthless stocks at $200 ea.  and people are lining up to buy them, just to hang them on the wall.

The NFL is so large and so marketable, that they break record after record for more money for each TV deal they negotiate - they could survive alone on TV Deals and Advertising, but who wants to be the mayor that lost the NFL?  It's not a subsidy because it's unneeded.  It's a total popularity contest, and that fact alone has every public official's arm tied behind his back.  They don't have to pay, but they will -  more and more and more.  Because in the overall scheme of things, elected officials would probably rather be known as the guy who raised taxes 2% to keep the team around rather than the guy who lost an NFL team.  Only one of those is forgivable (re-electable)

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this.  And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.

The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue?  The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants.  The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.

I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect. 

And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers.  And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.

[BridgeTroll]

I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this.  And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.

The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue?  The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants.  The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.

I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect. 

And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers.  And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.

Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau.  The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money.  Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility.  it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region.  BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.

Since we are talking about sports facilities... the Baseball grounds appear to have been built solely for the Suns.  Worth it?  What about the Arena?

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau.  The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money.  Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility.  it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region.  BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.

I was aware of this.  The Packers are the only publicly owned franchise and were the only team during the lockout that had thier books open for the world to see.   The Palace that Jerry built is another stadium that is open all the time.  He hosts all types of events, has a Cowboys museum, a very large art collection, and he built his own - every dime that gets spent inside that building monday through saturday goes in JJs pocket.  So you can't tell me that it can't be done. 

Another thing about Cowboy Stadium is that since it's privately owned, the programming is privately done - and done to make a profit.  Can you imagine all the events that would be going on at Everbank if WW had a division solely responsible for bringing events to the stadium?  (and don't give me any, "That's what SMG is for crap."  )

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

Do you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?

In reality they cannot.

No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.

Here's the thing with businesses and revenue streams:  when one dries up they find another or they modify the business.

ESPN used to offer free programming for the cable providers.  All of their revenue was generated through ad sales.  They were the first cable network to ge to the distributors and say, we are going to charge you $x/subscriber if you want to broadcast our channel - and the cable companies ate it up.  When ESPN got the rights to the NFL (Mid to late 90's)  They went back to the cable companies and basically bent them over.  Their next contract was a 20% increase over what they were receiving, with a 20% increase each year for the next 4 years, with the understanding that if the cable operators didn't agree to those terms, ESPN would pull the programming and the terms would be almost double if they changed their mind!  That's insanity, but the cable operators knew they needed ESPN, and with it, ESPN brought the NFL to cable. 

That's the power of the NFL - it more than doubled the premiums ESPN was recieving over the course of 4 years.

My point is, they don't need the government.  They would do just fine without.  Why are they going to turn down free money?

[tufsu1]

Do you really think that the NFL can afford to give up the money from local governments?

In reality they cannot.

No business could give up 75% of its revenues and survive.

are you kidding...what data do you have that shows 75% of NFL revenues comes from government?

the top 2 revenue sources for the league are its TV contracts and ticket sales.

[Shwaz]

I think there's already a good contingent of the public that realizes this.  And there are more that realize it, but don't care - as long as the games are on on Sundays.

The only distinction that I'm trying to make is that the NFL doesn't need the money from the local governments, but what corporation in their right minds is going to turn down revenue?  The NFL has plenty of cash to operate wherever it wants.  The cities are making a choice to keep the teams, damn the consequences.

I think Mayor Payton even said it, "Sometimes, that's just the cost of us having the NFL" or something to that effect. 

And the only team that has made its fan base 'owners' is the Packers.  And they generate money by selling the worthless stocks that I mentioned before - and their fans love them for it.

Even the Packers asked Brown county quite a few years ago to subsidize the renovation of Lambeau.  The county added .5% to their sales tax to come up with the money.  Of course Lambeau is now a 24/7/365 facility.  it hosts conventions, concerts, weddings, meetings, and is a huge money generator for the region.  BTW... if you want to buy a piece of the Pack they will be selling "worthless" stock again next year to add around 10,000 seats, a new video and sound system.

Since we are talking about sports facilities... the Baseball grounds appear to have been built solely for the Suns.  Worth it?  What about the Arena?

I believe the city plans to subsidize the improvements needed for Everbank using the increased bed tax downtown.

[Tacachale]

I looked it up so that I was sure what it meant,

cap·i·tal·ism (kp-tl-zm)
n.
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

The NFL produces and distributes an amazing product.  A product that is so amazing that city governments CHOOSE to finance their infrastructure in order to have them around.  You're kidding yourself if you think that the NFL needs all of the money that cities contribute to these teams.  If Jacksonville didn't want to pay for a stadium, then they would go to the next town that wanted the NFL and the next, and the next until they found a home.  You currently have 2 developers trying to outbid each other to build the next NFL stadium.  There's a team in Minnesota that is thinking of a no-vote raise in taxes to keep their team in town.  Hell, even in the little town of Green Bay, WI (after using a lot of public money for a renovation) the team is able to issue worthless stocks at $200 ea.  and people are lining up to buy them, just to hang them on the wall.

The NFL is so large and so marketable, that they break record after record for more money for each TV deal they negotiate - they could survive alone on TV Deals and Advertising, but who wants to be the mayor that lost the NFL?  It's not a subsidy because it's unneeded.  It's a total popularity contest, and that fact alone has every public official's arm tied behind his back.  They don't have to pay, but they will -  more and more and more.  Because in the overall scheme of things, elected officials would probably rather be known as the guy who raised taxes 2% to keep the team around rather than the guy who lost an NFL team.  Only one of those is forgivable (re-electable)

This too rosy a depiction. The NFL keeps up its quality product - and the pricetag - by operating a total monopoly over professional football. If cities want any professional football, they must court the NFL on the NFL's own terms. And it's not as if some other group of millionaires could just start their own competing league; whenever another league has become a threat in the past, the NFL has fought them tooth and nail, either to the point that they fold or the NFL buys them out.

Additionally, unlike other sports like baseball and hockey, and soccer and rugby in other countries, the NFL doesn't even operate a minor league; its "minor league" is college football, which is also heavily subsidized by the schools and even taxpayers

As I say, I do think the NFL has been a great quality of life buy for Jacksonville and lots of other places. I want us to do what it takes to make the Jags a permanent, competitive franchise in this old football town. But if things continue on this path, pro football may end up being played exclusively in billion dollar, mostly taxpayer funded stadiums in the country's largest cities.