Discussion about the fair share of Jaguars Economics

[Captain Zissou]

2-I don't recall making any point about the Weavers doing more or less for this city the owner from the Saints.

I don't recall you making any point either. 

So you want the Jags to do 'something', but you can't vocalize it in any way?? 

Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"

[downtownjag]

The Jags are not here to distribute wealth (enter the communism references), but if you've got a hard-working attitude and entreprenurial soul, maybe you can make some money off of them that you couldn't make with them not here.  Sell shirts, hot dogs, parking... Start a not for profit that you would like them to contribute to, rather than complaining you "aren't getting yours".

Do not kid yourself, the Saints were long gone before they made it to the Superbowl.  Furthermore, it's too early after their superbowl to see if the team really will support them, look at Tampa Bay as an example of the fire going out.  It took an act of God to give the city a reason to rally together, which, with us having 62k+ at home games with a one win team, I don't think we need.

To get back to your statement and those of a few others; what would you like to see the Jaguars do?

[Tacachale]

I agree that probably no one knows what kind of direct positive economic impact major league sports teams have on their cities, if it exists at all. It's probably even harder to tack down the objective indirect economic stimulation they bring to the table, though a lot of folks talk about it. And there are certainly areas who get absolutely hosed. For instance Baltimore, when the Ravens convinced Marylanders to pay $200 dollars for the privilege of having (another) football team, while Art Modell gets to keep 100% of the stadium's revenue. The sports business in general can be pretty shady.

But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.

I do wish that certain things would change. For one, the blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want. The city should also replan post-game traffic direction and transportation to better connect the stadium with downtown and the urban core. Currently the system is designed to get people in and out - via car - as quickly as possible, and it's nigh on impossible to get back into downtown even if you wanted to.  But these are correctable systemic problems, not problems with the Jaguars specifically.

[Dashing Dan]

However, that does nothing to support your point that the Weavers are doing less for this city than the equivalent party (the owner) from the Saints. 

2-I don't recall making any point about the Weavers doing more or less for this city the owner from the Saints.

I don't recall you making any point either. 

Did you say that I had made some point about the Weavers vs the owners of the Saints, are you correcting yourself, or am I somehow misunderstanding you???

[Dashing Dan]

Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"

The problem here is that we are all paying for a benefit that cannot be quantified, or even defined. 

On a dollars and cents basis, we are losing money on the Jags, so someone tell me -

If nobody watches our games and if downtown is dark during game time, what's in it for those of us who don't go to the games?

[downtownjag]

Let's build from here: "I want the Jags to _____(specific things that are actually possible go here)________"

The problem here is that we are all paying for a benefit that cannot be quantified, or even defined. 

On a dollars and cents basis, we are losing money on the Jags, so someone tell me -

If nobody watches our games and if downtown is dark during game time, what's in it for those of us who don't go to the games?

RIDICULOUS.  CITE, WITH LEGITIMATE SOURCES, YOU'RE LOSING CREDIBILITY.  I think there are some nice homes for sale in Minnesota.

[downtownjag]

^^^Maybe you don't value my opinion, but without some substance behind these claims, I'm no longer interested in discussing.

[Dashing Dan]

The benefits of having the Jags here may be real, but the really important benefits are intangible.

[KenFSU]

But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.

The blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want.

Really good points here.

[Dashing Dan]

But I don't see the Jaguars as an economic investment only, I see them as a quality of life investment. Tens of thousands of people go to the games and even more watch at home or quality local establishments. I listen to them on the radio, because I'm broke and don't have TV. You say you don't personally get anything out of it, but you could say that about literally anything that requires public money that you don't personally use: museums, public transit, the Jazz Festival, etc.

The blackout rule should be illegal for any team whose stadium was built with public money. The people paid for it, they should be able to watch games however they want.

Really good points here.

I am not saying I personally don't get anything out of it.  I enjoy most of the games that I see on TV or hear on the radio. 

I'm glad we have an NFL team here, I really am.  But I still have to say that the external benefits of transit, the Jazz Festival, etc are probably easier to justify in relation to the amount of public money that is being spent on those things.

I would have expected the Saints to give up on New Orleans, or vice versa, in the years after Katrina.  But for intangible reasons, it turned out to be a good thing that they stayed put. 

I have the same hope for the Jags, even if they don't win a Super Bowl.

[BridgeTroll]

Watch this DD...  This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650

This is from an EX coach...

The Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007.  We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity.  This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to  be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer.  One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area.  None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.

http://tcjayfund.org/

Not enough??  Check this out...

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml

Weavers select 38 charities for grants

They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN

WEAVER GRANTEES

Agency Amount

Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000

Total $21 million

In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.

The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.

Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.

"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."

Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.

Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.

"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."

Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.

Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.

Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.

"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.

The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.

Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.

"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."

Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.

Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.

"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."

Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??

[BridgeTroll]

Clearly OWS has another place to occupy... please purchase tickets tho...

[Tacachale]

No argument that the sports business world is brutal and cutthroat, and only getting worse. This is a good book on the subject by John R. Gerdy and published by the University Press of Mississippi. It's pretty damning about supposed economic benefits of major league sports.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ygiy5iVC2mQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sports:+the+all-American+addiction&hl=en&ei=sUioTojmPI2TtweSkMz_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Again, though, sports aren't just an economic investment, but a cultural and quality of life one. Some things are worth spending money without expecting a monetary return.

[Tacachale]

No argument that the sports business world is brutal and cutthroat, and only getting worse. This is a good book on the subject by John R. Gerdy and published by the University Press of Mississippi. It's pretty damning about supposed economic benefits of major league sports.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ygiy5iVC2mQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Sports:+the+all-American+addiction&hl=en&ei=sUioTojmPI2TtweSkMz_Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Again, though, sports aren't just an economic investment, but a cultural and quality of life one. Some things are worth spending money without expecting a monetary return.

^In other words, I don't know if it's even possible to put a monetary amount on it, but I imagine the amount the city spends on the Jaguars, mitigated by whatever direct and indirect economic benefits the team brings, and divided by the tens of thousands of people who derive benefit through attending, watching, or listening to the games, is probably comparable per capita to other quality of life investments the city could make.

[BridgeTroll]

Watch this DD...  This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650

This is from an EX coach...

The Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007.  We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity.  This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to  be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer.  One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area.  None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.

http://tcjayfund.org/

Not enough??  Check this out...

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml

Weavers select 38 charities for grants

They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN

WEAVER GRANTEES

Agency Amount

Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000

Total $21 million

In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.

The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.

Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.

"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."

Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.

Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.

"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."

Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.

Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.

Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.

"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.

The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.

Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.

"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."

Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.

Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.

"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."

Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??