Discussion about the fair share of Jaguars Economics

[BridgeTroll]

Since the Romans... and probably before... goverments have "subsidized" sporting event stadiums.  Many of them are mixed use... the Fl-Ga this weekend, (thousands of folks who have NO other reason to be here) Monster truck show, concerts, HS championship games, etc.

Many more than a "few rich guys" benefit from that stadium... lets start with the players and coaches, trainers, vendors, maintenance.  Then there are the businesses that these folks spend their money in.  Of course the charities and events sponsored by players and coaches... this goes WELL beyond the Weavers 21 million.

I understand you don't care about football in the least... that's fine.  I understand there are plenty of "other" ways for the city to spend money... I get it.

The folks in Minnesota are arguing this right now.  If enough people feel as you do about the subject... the Vikings will move.  Simple.  But have no doubt... another city... or cities... will anxiously stand in line to have a chance to build a stadium to house them.

Jacksonville is LUCKY... DAMN Lucky to have the Jags... appreciate that.

[JeffreyS]

Rarely is any one QOL improvement going to give equal benefit to everyone.  Bike lanes are great and we should all pay even though some do not ride bikes. Think Boat ramps, Riverwalks, even airport subsidies.  If we can only invest in things everyone uses we won't invest in any QOL project. That is what investing in the NFL is.

[wsansewjs]

The title of this thread should be renamed to...

"A disillusional discussion about the economic impact of the Jacksonville Jaguars team"

-Josh

[BridgeTroll]

First... I never implied DD was socialist for his views.  His points are valid and salient.  I simply disagree with his premise and apparently yours that Jacksonville gets...

nothing proportional in return

Some owners and groups are able to build their own stadium... (Jerry Jones)  I think thats awesome. 

As far as conservative or socialist... Apparently I am as socialist as you are conservative.  I guess we can put that stereotype away now...

[BridgeTroll]

Im not sure what you are implying, Bridge Troll.

Are you saying that the Weavers are only contributing to Charity as a business ploy?

No... quite a way back I listed a very small slice of what the community "gets back" from the Jags and the Weavers.

[BridgeTroll]

Watch this DD...  This is just one player... in a word... inspirational.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650

This is from an EX coach...

The Jay Fund’s Board of Directors approved the Now and Forever Endowment Campaign in 2007.  We successfully raised $5 million dollars of funding to continue the Jay Fund’s mission to provide financial and emotional assistance to families in the Jacksonville community in perpetuity.  This campaign yields funds, which are kept permanently invested, to generate income for grantmaking to  be used to ensure that The Jay Fund can meet the direct financial and emotional needs of future Jacksonville community families affected by childhood cancer.  One-hundred percent (100%) of the income from the endowment will be used to support families in the Jacksonville area.  None of the funds raised from this campaign will be used for operating expenses.

http://tcjayfund.org/

Not enough??  Check this out...

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062307/met_179533193.shtml

Weavers select 38 charities for grants

They are giving $21 million to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofits.
MATT COLEMAN

WEAVER GRANTEES

Agency Amount

Amelia Island Museum of History $100,000
Betty Griffin House $500,000
Boys and Girls Clubs of Nassau County Foundation $100,000
City Rescue Mission $100,000
Clara White Mission $500,000
Community Connections $1 million
Community Foundation in Jacksonville $1 million
Community Hospice of Northeast Florida $500,000
Douglas Anderson School of the Arts $500,000
Dreams Come True $300,000
Florida Ballet $100,000
Gateway Community Services $400,000
HabiJax $1 million
Historical PAL of St. Johns County $50,000
Hope Haven $600,000
Hubbard House $1 million
Jacksonville Children's Chorus $125,000
Jacksonville Public Library $200,000
JASMYN $200,000
Jewish Family and Community Services $1 million
Local Initiatives Support Corporation-Jacksonville $750,000
Micah's Place $500,000
OneJax $350,000
Operation New Hope $100,000
PACE Center for Girls-Jacksonville $1 million
Pine Castle $100,000
Planned Parenthood of Northeast Florida $350,000
Quigley House $500,000
Ronald McDonald House $500,000
Sanctuary on 8th Street $200,000
I.M. Sulzbacher Center for the Homeless $1 million
The Bridge of Northeast Florida $1 million
United Way of Northeast Florida-Full-Service Schools $1,625,000
Volunteers in Medicine $500,000
We Care Jacksonville $1 million
Women's Center of Jacksonville $500,000
WJCT Public TV/Radio $1 million
Youth Crisis Center $750,000

Total $21 million

In an unprecedented show of philanthropy, Jacksonville Jaguars co-owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver announced Friday $21 million in donations to 38 Northeast Florida nonprofit organizations.

The Weavers personally donated to groups they selected based on various educational, cultural and social contributions to the community. The United Way of Northeast Florida's full-service schools received the most with $1,625,000. Ten others were given $1 million.

Delores Weaver referenced the biblical verse "To whom much is given, much is expected" as an inspiration for her and her husband. She said after being married 52 years and achieving a level of economic comfort, writing the check was easy.

"We came from humble beginnings, and it's just great to be given the opportunity to help these deserving people," she said. "The organizations provide a tremendous service to the community and they deserve every penny."

Wayne Weaver said during the news conference at Jacksonville Municipal Stadium that the decision was made to give one large sum of money instead of smaller amounts over a period of time. He said this would allow the agencies to decide how the money would be allotted.

Gregory Gross worked as a consultant for the Weavers throughout the yearlong process. He said the amounts and organizations were determined based on the input of the Weavers and the Jacksonville Jaguars Foundation. Grants and endowments were given after determining the needs of the individual groups.

"The Weavers did something unique by allowing the organizations to determine what their grant money will be used for," Gross said. "We hope this gesture will expand the dialogue and cause other benefactors to dig deeper."

Nina Waters, president of the Community Foundation in Jacksonville, said the more than $9 million in endowments will be stationed with her organization. She said the endowments accrue 5 percent of the total investment for the various nonprofit organizations annually.

Melanie Patz, a vice president of the United Way of Northeast Florida, said the agencies gift will go toward the full-service school in Springfield and the operation of a new school in the Sandalwood community. Patz said the schools help the academic success of students by providing medical services and support for disadvantaged children.

Donna Gallagher, president of the Pace Center for Girls, said she was told Pace would be receiving a gift from an anonymous donor and learned two weeks ago it was the Weavers.

"This donation is a statement about the Weavers' sincere and philanthropic devotion to the community," Gallagher said.

The gifts came at an opportune time as Mayor John Peyton is considering reducing the city's $11.4 million allotment for public service grants by $10 million.

Greg Frazier, director of development for Community Connections, said his program took its $1 million donation completely as an endowment, which doesn't get spent but generates money. He said the decision was made in the best interest of his agency considering the financial climate for many nonprofits.

"It's very difficult trying to build an endowment when you're a nonprofit organization," Frazier said. "This donation is going to have a tremendous effect on Community Connections because we now have a safety net under us for when we're dealing with the economic challenges of funding."

Wayne Weaver first rose to prominence as the owner of shoe store chains Shoe Carnival and Nine West. He became the majority owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars in 1993 after the city won the expansion bid for a new National Football League franchise.

Combined with the Weaver Family Foundation, the Weavers have donated a total of $42 million to local nonprofit agencies.

"Growing up, no one ever told us that our money can make a difference," Delores Weaver said. "Now we know that however much money you have in your pocket ... it all adds up and it can help change peoples' lives for the better."

Is any of this "quantifiable" or "tangible" enough??

Somehow... I do not think any of the above are business ploys.  But thats just me...

[BridgeTroll]

And do you think that the NFL franchise is the sole source of the weaver's income?

I have no idea...

Please watch the video...

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=7145650

[wsansewjs]

The reports are saying that almost all of the stadiums will need to be replaced by 2020, so these next few years the blackmail and pressure tactics are going to probably become pretty intense.

I can definitely vouch you for that since I went to Everbank Field few weeks ago, and I saw the condition the stadium resides in... It is cracking faster than you can say crack.

-Josh

[BridgeTroll]

Only you are talking quid pro quo arrangement with the NFL... not I.

You are a business man Stephen.  You have leased space and run businesses.  In the case of the Minnesota Vikings... he bought a business that was leasing the Metrodome.  The place is old... it is a dump.  The roof caved in last year.  His lease is up this year and the facility he is leasing is substandard... by any measure.  He needs a place to run his business and has informed city and state officials that if he cannot find one locally he will have to look elseware.

I am sure you have had similar circumstances in the past.  The fact that we are talking about a publicly built facility makes the question of whether or not tax dollars should be spent for the facility makes the question relevant.  The people (government) can decide it is not worth it... and in that case the owner has no choice but to shop for another space.  The people (government) can decide it is a worthy investment and build a facility that suits the owners needs.

If you were still running a restaurant ( I wish you would BTW) you would not do so in a facility that did not suit your needs or was substandard.  You would ask that the owner renovate to your standard... or move.

This is hardly blackmail... it is business.

[downtownjag]

I didn't go to the library today, I'd like to know why I have to pay for that as well.

[Dashing Dan]

There are lots of things - like schools - that benefit the community as a whole in addition to the people who use them directly.  My house didn't burn down last year but I'm glad we have a fire dept.

If we put all of these things under a microscope and the football team comes in ahead of the library, that would surprise me.

[duvaldude08]

NFL stadium have always been a sticking point with most cities. There are times the current stadium is not even paid for, and they are required to build a new one. Leaving the city screwed. I actually think this just happened recently. (the team escapes me right now.) But other than that, I do see more positive than negatives of having an NFL team for sure.

[downtownjag]

There are lots of things - like schools - that benefit the community as a whole in addition to the people who use them directly.  My house didn't burn down last year but I'm glad we have a fire dept.

If we put all of these things under a microscope and the football team comes in ahead of the library, that would surprise me.

Doesn't matter, according to the basis of your arguement.  I didn't use it, I don't need it, but I'm paying for it.  Fire & police are necessary for public safety, so that's a poor analogy.

[JeffreyS]

Is there any subject this city talks about more than the Jaguars.  Seriously to debate if the Jags are a net positive for the city is to have had your head in the sand.  My wife can't stand football and yet the Jags add to the feeling she has that Jax is not just a podunk town she left her beloved St. Louis to be stuck in.  It is now a bigger part of the fabric of identifying the city we live in than Andrew Jackson ever was.  It is bigger than Lynyrd Skynyrd, the TPC or the St. Johns river in terms of what outsiders know and residents identify themselves with. If we spend too much on them according to some bean counter it is still better than getting a good deal on a transit system. (that I lobby for, pray for and would love.)

[Shwaz]

http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/JacksonvilleJaguars/index.htm

JAGUARS SEEK $148 MILLION IN STADIUM UPGRADES
December 4, 2008
Copyright 2008 MediaVentures

Jacksonville, Fla. - The Jaguars want the city to spend $148 million renovating Jacksonville Municipal Stadium - more than it cost to build 15 years ago.

Mayor John Peyton said it's time to start thinking about a slew of recommendations in a 2-year-old Jaguars-commissioned architectural review, which range from repaving the parking lot to replacing seating and upgrading video equipment.

Two days ago he said a slowing economy will prevent the city from finishing the Better Jacksonville growth management plan on time. The stadium came up as he was asked him questions about the city's other infrastructure needs.

"These are 30-year-life-type deals," Peyton said of the stadium. "It's an ongoing city obligation we expect to honor."

Still, he said at this point he's unsure where the money would come from. Routine maintenance, not part of the renovation proposals, is costing the city $1 million to $1.5 million annually.

The Jaguars' report comes from sports architect HOK Sport, which helped design the stadium. It has sat virtually untouched since its February 2007 publishing.

Peyton said he has had informal discussions with Jaguars owner Wayne Weaver about the stadium. He said Weaver has been reasonable about the city's budget concerns but would like to get moving on at least $100 million of the projects.

Peyton said he is certain Weaver is committed to keeping the team in Jacksonville and that attitude isn't being used as leverage to open the city's checkbook.

The stadium cost $140 million to build in the mid-1990s. A subsequent $63 million renovation added a number of amenities including new escalators and the Bud Zone. Peyton said those were inexpensive investments that reaped dividends when the city hosted Super Bowl XXXIX. The Jaguars have made more than $20 million in lease payments since the team's inception, according to city records. That money goes into a fund that helps pay stadium debt.

so, the jaguars had paid about 20 million dollars in lease payments from the founding of the team in 1995 till 2008.  Thats 13 years. 

So about 1.55 million dollars per year.

In order to pay back the original construction (203 million)  it would only take about 133 years for the city to recoup its investment on the sheer real estate transaction.

Im assuming that we made the additional 148 million dollars in improvements?  So thats only another hundred years of lease payment to pay back.

if you count the million dollars that comes from the Jaguar Foundation, then that would cut the total down to maybe 115 years for the city to recoup the investment.

hmmm...........



hmmm.............


What kind of business arrangement were you talking about again, Bridge Troll?

You numbers here are a bit skewed.

The original build-out for the Jaguars was $121 million in 1995. Peyton added another $63 million to accommodate the Super Bowl which in hindsight increased the seating capacity and hurt the team by raising the bar needed to  avoid the blackout number.

The naming rights deal has provided additional funds and advertising dollars that city has a share in + all the other events that are held in the stadium aside from the Jags games... and most of the events except for maybe the Mosnter Truck shows wouldn't happen if not for the upgraded stadium.

At the end of the day this stadium belongs to the tax payers of Jacksonville. It will require maintenance not just to keep the Jaguars but to continue attracting everyone from Lady Gaga to Motor Cross to U2. I chalk it up to the cost of being metropolitan.