It is claimed that conservatism has no foundational document (http://www.kirkcenter.org/kirk/ten-principles.html). Conservatism supposedly has no Das Kapital or a Mein Kampf from which it can draw its meaning and purpose. Conservatism is alleged to be without ideology or dogma. Instead conservatism is supposed to be based on what leading conservative thinkers and writers throughout history have said it means.
But this puts conservatism in the position of being dependent on principles that were formulated by people that are identified as conservatives without having any hard and fast criteria that can be used to identify conservatives in the first place. If we define conservatism by what leading conservatives want, we must identify leading conservatives without knowing what conservatism means. This gives politicians, the news media and the internet population at large carte blanche to define conservatism as it suits them. Conservatism can be lauded or lambasted at the merest whim. People can make conservatism up as they go along. Conservatism has, therefore, become the depository for everything that liberals dislike and the refuge for every libertarian who is really a scoundrel at heart.
But conservatism is based on certain core ideological beliefs. Conservative ideology is universal; it is not dependent on the conservative practitioner’s day and age; on his race, gender or religion; on his social class, nationality or his form of government. Conservatism is not based simply on what people that we today choose to identify as conservatives wanted in the past. Conservatism is not something ephemeral that can be made up to suit somebody’s political purpose or private agenda. There are certain things- certain ideologies- that naturally make a conservative a conservative.
Conservatives have a natural longing for stability while liberals, and their libertarian brethren, are perfectly happy with chaos. The purpose of conservatism is to establish and maintain a stable, functional and self-sustaining society. Conservatism’s purpose and the conservative’s longing for stability give conservatism certain inherent ideological components.
American conservatism has nothing to do with the American Revolution, the U.S. Constitution or the Founding Fathers. Conservatism transcends these things. Your views on the proper purpose, size or scope of government does not determine whether or not you are a conservative. Your acceptance of certain core ideological axioms makes you a conservative.
I. Social contract
Each generation is indebted to the ones that came before it and is obligated to the ones that come after it.
A. Tradition
Society is based upon and must uphold tradition to the extent that tradition stabilizes society.
B. Environmental conservation
1. Individuals must be willing to forgo maximum immediate profit for the sake of long-term sustainability. No generation is entitled to exhaust whatever natural resources it may have inherited from its forefathers.
2. Extract the greatest material benefit from the resources that are used by using resources in the most efficient manner.
C. Economic stability
1. Favor sound monetary policy to stabilize market prices and discourage speculation that can create market bubbles that will inevitably burst causing societal upheaval.
2. Avoid excessive debt that can hamper the ability of future generations to deal with whatever socio-economic and national security problems that may arise.
II. Interrelationship between property and liberty
A. Stabilizing influence of property
1. Societal upheaval can put the property at risk.
2. A property owner is more likely to respect the property of others in order to insure that others respect his own property.
B. Property rights
1. Individuals must be able to acquire property.
2. Individuals must be able to sell property.
3. Property rights cannot be absolute. Society has a right to regulate property rights so no one can infringe on the property rights of others by exercising an absolute right of his own.
III. Interrelationship between property and power
A. Wealth equals power
1. Wealth must be regulated as power is regulated.
(a) Regulate the wealthy so they cannot oppress the poor with their power.
(1) Guaranteed human rights for all individual regardless of wealth.
(2) Guaranteed broad but otherwise limited civil rights coupled with an upwardly mobile society that offers the chance of acquiring civil rights in the future (by coming of age or acquiring property for example).
(3) Impose taxes that allow private property to be used for public benefit since people who enjoy society’s protection for their property have a moral obligation to sustain society.
(4) Oppose laissez-faire economics since unregulated capitalistic markets concentrate wealth (and poverty) because the profit motive exacerbates human nature and allows individuals to sack, maim, pillage and destroy; lie, steal, cheat and kill for the sake of profit.
(b) Regulate the poor so they cannot oppress the wealthy with their numbers.
(1) Oppose democratic societies in favor of republican/royal government where the will of a momentary majority does not automatically determine government policy.
(2) Oppose progressive taxation and income re-distribution schemes as immoral; taxes can be used as a regulatory tool, but no one should be obligated to pay more taxes simply because they can afford to do so.
IV. Importance of society/government as a means to protect inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, i.e., property.
A. The individual and society exist in partnership with each being dependent on the other.
1. Participating in society is not voluntary because society is necessary to impose order on individual humans that are by nature orderless.
(a) Society has a right to impose its will on the individual and thereby maintain law and order while upholding traditions in order to stabilize society.
(b) Nobody has a right to rebel against a legitimate government and all lawful means of redress must be exhausted before force can be used against an illegitimate government meaning that a majority can impose its will on a minority so that being in the minority does not gain you any rights or privileges that are inconsistent with public order and society’s preservation.
2. Society has an obligation to protect its constituent parts against the individual actions of its constituent parts.
(a) Nobody has a right to engage in behavior that puts society, i.e., other people, at risk regardless of whether or not the individual believes his behavior is victimless.
(b) Government has a right to use force against the governed in order to maintain its own sovereignty meaning that government can regulate access to the means by which the governed can use force.
3. Individuals may act outside of the confines of society and may use deadly force if necessary whenever society cannot take timely action to protect life or property from criminal behavior.
B. Society is a living organism.
1. The more varied the constituent parts of society are the more buffered the society is meaning a greater variety of constituent parts gives society a greater stability.
(a) Society must recognize the divergent natural abilities (such as physical strength and intelligence) of its constituent parts and understand that these divergent natural abilities will lead to inequality that society must more-or-less accept.
(b) Society must try to even out gross socio-economic inequality that could lead to societal disruption (conservatives are opposed to the mass concentration of both wealth and poverty), but society cannot wantonly expend its resources in an endless effort to achieve equality among its constituent parts.
(c) Society has the right to impose a certain amount of conformity on individuals for the sake of insuring societal cohesion between its constituent parts.
2. Society must uphold human rights to life, liberty and property consistent with public order and the insurance of society’s future.
C. Government
1. Society is greater than the sum of its constituent parts.
(a) Collective action by society serves a needful purpose by promoting the commonwealth of society.
(b) Government must have the power to do whatever needs to be done to promote the commonwealth of society whenever the constituent parts of society cannot or will not take action.
2. Government is a reflection of the governed
(a) Individuals must not become dependent on their government for their daily sustenance lest the government assume undue power unto itself.
(b) Government’s powers must be divided into separate but mutually dependent departments so no part of the government can assume undue power unto itself.
(c) The government must be answerable to the governed lest it abuse the governed.
(d) The government must be responsive to the governed lest the governed rebel against the government because it cannot meet the needs of the governed.
V. Self-evident truths of human nature
A. Humans are by nature self-serving, self-centered and greedy brutes as evidenced by the whole of human history.
B. Human nature is not alterable by natural means; putting others ahead of one’s self is the antithesis of human nature and no individual, when left to his own devices, will ever do it.
1. Human society is inevitable; otherwise human beings will destroy each other because they cannot live peaceably in a state of nature.
2. All human society can do is compensate for human nature by imposing its will on the individual so as to prevent the individual from harming others or harming himself in a way that drains society’s resources.
C. Faith or religion may be able to overcome human nature in that an individual may be prompted to give consideration to others for the sake of faith or religion.
1. Society cannot legitimately impose its will on the individual in matters of faith or religion but personal conscience does not automatically give an individual a right to separate himself from society or shirk his obligation to maintain society.
2. Society has an obligation to allow and even encourage faith and religion consistent with public order; nobody should have to forfeit his faith/religion for the sake of gaining human or civil rights or forfeit his human or civil rights for the sake of peacefully practicing his faith/religion.
VI. Human biology is unalterable by any natural means
A. Biology makes men and women distinct from each other with natural strengths and weaknesses; a man cannot naturally be a woman, nor can a woman naturally be a man.
1. Men and women are mutually dependent on each other due to their respective biological functions.
2. Society must uphold and maintain the distinction of men and woman for the sake of its own survival.
VII. Society driven by human nature cannot be perfect because human nature is not perfect
A. Change is inevitable
1. Human societies are always subject to the forces of the natural environment that can wreak wholesale changes to society that society is powerless to stop.
2. Societal inertia naturally leads to conflict
(a) People that have comfortable lives naturally want to preserve the status quo.
(b) People who feel themselves oppressed will naturally seek to better their situation.
B. Each generation has a moral obligation to confront the shortcomings of the generations that came before it so as to not perpetuate these shortcomings on posterity and thereby allow the failures of past generations to accumulate and put society at risk; no generation is so great that its posterity is obligated to maintain its failures.
C. Change for the mere sake of change is folly
1. All change, regardless of how necessary it may be, must be weighed against the long-term disruptive effects it may have on society; change is not automatically change for the better.
2. A perfect society is impossible due to the imperfection of human nature so it is pointless to constantly strive for utopia- something that can never exist; furthermore the desire for perfection leads invariably to a desire for change for the sake of change and this puts society at grave risk.
3. It is better to accept society as it is and wait for change to come in the natural course of events than it is to risk society’s total destruction caused by immediate change whose long-term consequences cannot be anticipated.
D. Restorative change
1. Experience shows what has worked well in the past.
2. Society should always encourage restorative change.
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 09:43:28 AM
jaxnative,
I stopped reading the essay when it asserted the 'liberals are content with chaos'.
Since this isnt true, yet is asserted as fact, what chances are there that any of the rest of it is true?
I guess you know nothing of the 1960s.
In other words Stephen it's about them being against everything except what THEY want and believe!
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 10:04:03 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 09:53:43 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 09:43:28 AM
jaxnative,
I stopped reading the essay when it asserted the 'liberals are content with chaos'.
Since this isnt true, yet is asserted as fact, what chances are there that any of the rest of it is true?
I guess you know nothing of the 1960s.
What on earth does the 1960s have to do with such a defining remark?
The 1960s were a product of liberalism. The 1960s were chaotic. Therefore liberals want chaos. Liberal practices such as welfare without obligation and sex outside of marriage lead to the dissolution of the family unit. The result has been the destruction of America's stable society, i.e., chaos.
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 10:21:12 AM
This appears to be an abridgement of the following essay, its interesting the parts that you seem to have added.
In any case, I don't think that this is a very good description of conservatives anyway. Its a better description for authoritarianism, but not American conservativism.
It is claimed that conservatism has no foundational document (The Kirk Center - Ten Conservative Principles by Russell Kirk). Conservatism supposedly has no Das Kapital or a Mein Kampf from which it can draw its meaning and purpose. Conservatism is alleged to be without ideology or dogma. Instead conservatism is supposed to be based on what leading conservative thinkers and writers throughout history have proposed.
But this puts conservatism in the position of being dependent on principles that were formulated by people that are identified as conservatives without having any hard and fast criteria that can be used to identify conservatives in the first place. If we define conservatism by what leading conservatives want, we must identify conservatives without knowing what conservatism means. This gives politicians, the news media and the internet population at large carte blanche to define conservatism as it suits them. Conservatism can be lauded or lambasted at the merest whim. People can make conservatism up as they go along. Conservatism has, therefore, become the depository for everything that liberals dislike and the refuge for every libertarian who is too cowardly to admit that they have anything in common with liberals.
But conservatism is based on certain core ideological beliefs. Conservative ideology is universal; it is not dependent on the conservative’s day and age; on his race, gender or religion; on his social class, nationality or his form of government. Conservatism is not based simply on what people that we today choose to identify as conservatives wanted in the past. Conservatism is not something ephemeral that can be made up to suit somebody’s political purpose or private agenda. There are certain things- certain ideologies- that naturally make a conservative a conservative. Conservatives have a natural longing for stability while liberals, and their libertarian brethren, are perfectly happy with chaos. The purpose of conservatism is to establish and maintain a stable, functional and self-sustaining society. Conservatism’s purpose and the conservative’s longing for stability give conservatism certain inherent ideological components.
American conservatism has nothing to do with the American Revolution, the U.S. Constitution or the Founding Fathers. Conservatism transcends these things. Your views on the proper purpose, size or scope of government does not determine whether or not you are a conservative. Your acceptance of certain core ideological axioms makes you a conservative.
I. Each generation is indebted to the ones that came before it and is obligated to the ones that come after it.
A. Society is based upon and must uphold tradition to the extent that tradition stabilizes society.
B. Society must conserve natural resources for future use.
1. Extract the greatest material benefit from the resources that are used by using resources in the most efficient manner.
2. Individuals must be willing to forgo maximum immediate profit for the sake of long-term sustainability.
C. Maintain economic stability.
1. Favor sound monetary policy to stabilize market prices and discourage speculation that can create market bubbles that will inevitably burst causing societal upheaval.
2. Avoid excessive debt that can hamper the ability of future generations to deal with whatever socio-economic and national security problems that may arise.
II. Property and liberty are mutually dependent
A. Owning property gives the owner a vested interest in preserving society lest societal upheaval put the owner’s property at risk since a property owner is more likely to respect the property of others because he wants others to equally respect his own property.
B. Individuals within society must have a right to the fruits of their own labor and must have a right to acquire property so as to maintain their own liberty.
III. Wealth equals power and must be regulated as power would be regulated.
A. Regulate the wealthy so they cannot oppress the poor with their power.
1. Guaranteed human rights for all individual regardless of wealth.
2. Guaranteed broad but otherwise limited civil rights (to vote or hold office for example) coupled with an upwardly mobile society that offers the chance of acquiring civil rights in the future.
3. Impose taxes that allow private property to be used for public benefit since people who enjoy society’s protection for their property have a moral obligation to sustain society.
4. Oppose laissez-faire economics since unregulated capitalistic markets concentrate wealth (and poverty) because the profit motive exacerbates human nature and allows individuals to sack, maim, pillage and destroy; lie, steal, cheat and kill for the sake of profit.
B. Regulate the poor so they cannot oppress the wealthy with their numbers.
1. Oppose democratic societies in favor of republican/royal government where the will of a momentary majority does not automatically determine government policy.
2. Oppose progressive taxation and income re-distribution schemes as immoral.
IV. Society is of vital importance.
A. The individual and society exist in partnership with each being dependent on the other.
1. Participating in society is not voluntary because society is necessary to impose order on individual humans that are by nature orderless.
a. Society has a right to impose its will on the individual and thereby maintain law and order for the benefit of society as a whole.
b. Nobody has a right to rebel against a legitimate government and all lawful means of redress must be exhausted before force can be used against a legitimate government meaning that a majority can impose its will on a minority so that being in the minority does not gain you any rights or privileges that are inconsistent with public order and society’s preservation.
2. Society has an obligation to protect its constituent parts against the individual actions of its constituent parts.
a. Nobody has a right to engage in behavior that puts society, i.e., other people, at risk regardless of whether or not the individual believes his behavior is victimless.
b. Government has a right to use force against the governed in order to maintain its own sovereignty.
B. Society is a living organism.
1. The more varied the constituent parts of society are the more buffered the society is meaning a greater variety of constituent parts gives society a greater stability.
a. Society must recognize the divergent natural abilities (such as physical strength, intelligence) of its constituent parts and understand that these divergent natural abilities will lead to inequality that society must accept.
b. Society must try to even out gross socio-economic inequality that could lead to societal disruption (conservatives are opposed to the mass concentration of both wealth and poverty), but society cannot wantonly expend its resources in an endless effort to achieve equality among its constituent parts.
2. Society has the right to impose a certain amount of conformity on individuals for the sake of insuring societal cohesion between its constituent parts.
C. Society must uphold human rights to life, liberty and property consistent with public order and the insurance society’s future.
V. Self-evident truths of human nature:
A. Humans are by nature self-serving, self-centered and greedy brutes as evidenced by the whole of human history.
B. Human nature is not alterable by natural means; putting others ahead of one’s self is the antithesis of human nature and no individual when left to his own devices will ever do it.
1. Human society is inevitable; otherwise human beings will destroy each other.
2. All human society can do is compensate for human nature by imposing its will on the individual so as to prevent the individual from harming others or harming himself in a way that drains society’s resources.
C. Faith or religion may be able to overcome human nature in that an individual may be prompted to give consideration to others for the sake of faith or religion.
1. Society cannot legitimately impose its will on the individual in matters of faith or religion.
2. Society has an obligation to allow and even encourage faith and religion consistent with public order; nobody should have to forfeit his faith/religion for the sake of gaining human or civil rights or forfeit his human or civil rights for the sake of peacefully practicing his faith/religion.
VI. Human biology is unalterable by any natural means in that biology makes men and women distinct from each other with natural strengths and weaknesses that make men and women mutually dependent on each other with each having natural biological functions that society must uphold and maintain for the sake of its own survival.
VII. Change is inevitable.
A. Human societies are always subject to the forces of the natural environment that can wrought wholesale changes to society that society is powerless to stop.
B. Each generation has a moral obligation to confront the shortcomings of the generations that came before it so as to not perpetuate these shortcomings on posterity and thereby allow the failures of past generations to accumulate and put society at risk; no generation is so great that its successors are obligated to maintain its failures.
VIII. The inevitability of change is not license for change.
A. Change for the mere sake of change is always wrong.
1. All change, regardless of how necessary it may be, must be weighed against the long-term disruptive effects it may have on society.
2. A perfect society is impossible due to the imperfection of human nature so it is pointless to constantly strive for utopia- something that can never exist; furthermore the desire for perfection leads invariably to a desire for change for the sake of change and this puts society at grave risk.
B. It is better to accept society as it is and wait for change to come in the natural course of events than it is to risk society’s total destruction caused by immediate change the long-term consequences of which nobody can anticipate.
Both versions are my work.
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 10:36:26 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States
There is no "conservatism in the United States". As I stated in my essay conservatism is universal. It is not dependent on time or place. Conservatives, no matter where they live or when they live, always want the same thing: stability.
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 10:46:15 AM
In other words Stephen it's about them being against everything except what THEY want and believe!
Huh?
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 09:43:28 AM
jaxnative,
I stopped reading the essay when it asserted the 'liberals are content with chaos'.
Since this isnt true, yet is asserted as fact, what chances are there that any of the rest of it is true?
That is the point were I stopped thinking that it was a real attempt at a stated philosophy and it started to appear to be simple minded rhetoric. Which is a shame because even though it does not line up exactly with my personal beliefs it appeared as though it was going to be a thoughtful take on conservatism.
So it looks like "conservatism" is America as it existed in the 1950's. Jim Crow laws, sexism in the workplace, back-alley abortions, white males only political system.
Jaxnative, I was there. It was bad. It's better now. Seems like individual freedom and diversity in the workplace and political sphere frightens you. You think it's chaos because you don't understand it or like it.
Western Liberal Democracy has had episodes of turbulence and the conservatives of western aristocracy had just as many.
Individualism seems to be the thing that Conservatives long for but refuse to embrace. I admit that is more true of Republicans than other conservatives.
WOW jaxnative, just WOW! To actually proclaim that all liberals want chaos is jaw dropping. That is the biggest BS statement of all.
I realize now that you just wanted to pull a prank on the people who come here...
It's funny and it worked.
Congrats!!!!
It's kinda like a solo Flash Mob....
Love it.....
by the way jax native...Did you grow up in the 60's. Were you born in 1968? Just curious
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 10:56:54 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 03, 2011, 09:43:28 AM
jaxnative,
I stopped reading the essay when it asserted the 'liberals are content with chaos'.
Since this isnt true, yet is asserted as fact, what chances are there that any of the rest of it is true?
That is the point were I stopped thinking that it was a real attempt at a stated philosophy and it started to appear to be simple minded rhetoric. Which is a shame because even though it does not line up exactly with my personal beliefs it appeared as though it was going to be a thoughtful take on conservatism.
What qualifies you to comment on what conservatism is and is not? Have you studied the workings of and history behind our current socio-economic and political system?
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 03, 2011, 10:57:37 AM
So it looks like "conservatism" is America as it existed in the 1950's. Jim Crow laws, sexism in the workplace, back-alley abortions, white males only political system.
Where in hell do you get this from?
QuoteJaxnative, I was there. It was bad. It's better now.
Did you have crack cocaine in the 1950s or AIDS? What about a double digit high school dropout rate or gang warfare in the streets? Was what has just happened in the Brooklyn area of Jacksonville possible in the 1950s or is it the result of 1960s liberalism?
QuoteSeems like individual freedom and diversity in the workplace and political sphere frightens you.
Where in hell do you get this from? There is a difference between liberty and license.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
Western Liberal Democracy has had episodes of turbulence and the conservatives of western aristocracy had just as many.
Examples? Documentation?
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 11:01:17 AM
Individualism seems to be the thing that Conservatives long for but refuse to embrace. I admit that is more true of Republicans than other conservatives.
Conservatives see society and individuals as mutually dependent on each other. Liberals and libertarians are the ones that emphasize individualism at the expense of societal cohesion.
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:11:04 AM
WOW jaxnative, just WOW! To actually proclaim that all liberals want chaos is jaw dropping. That is the biggest BS statement of all.
I realize now that you just wanted to pull a prank on the people who come here...
It's funny and it worked.
Congrats!!!!
It's kinda like a solo Flash Mob....
Love it.....
You know absolutely nothing of history. Name one single liberal practice or policy or goal that does not lead to chaos that threatens society's survival.
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:12:33 AM
by the way jax native...Did you grow up in the 60's. Were you born in 1968? Just curious
I was born in 1968. However, my generation is still suffering from the damage done by our baby boomer parents' 1960s liberalism. My generation is the first to grow up raised by babysitters and daycare because our mothers believed it was more important for them to have careers than it was for us to have mothers. My generation is the first to grow up in an environment where drug abuse is both rampant and socially acceptable. My generation is the first to grow up with a failed school system. My generation is the first to endure divorce and promiscuity as the rule rather than the exception.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 12:09:45 PM
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:12:33 AM
by the way jax native...Did you grow up in the 60's. Were you born in 1968? Just curious
I was born in 1968. However, my generation is still suffering from the damage done by our baby boomer parents' 1960s liberalism. My generation is the first to grow up raised by babysitters and daycare because our mothers believed it was more important for them to have careers than it was for us to have mothers.
Um, so, conservatives are angry about being weaned early?
Quote from: DeadGirlsDontDance on September 03, 2011, 12:38:19 PM
Um, so, conservatives are angry about being weaned early?
My mother was physically incapable of carrying a baby to term and never should have gotten pregnant. But she was pregnant anyway before she was 17 years old. I was born 10 weeks premature. I spent the first 2 months of my life in an incubator. The next workday I was handed over to a babysitter.
My parents were divorced before I was 6 years old. My mother didn't think I was worth demanding child support for, and my father never paid the child support the judge ordered him to pay anyway. I haven’t seen my father more a few dozen times in the past 30 years and there’s been absolutely no contact with him since 1983, and my mother has never cared that my father has abandoned me.
My mother usually worked 50-60 hours a week under the guise of making ends meet, but for all practical purpose I've never had anything to show for it. My current crippling and potentially life-ending medical problems are a direct result of the physical neglect I endured while growing up because my mother simply didn’t give a damn.
So I have every right to resent women who abandon their children for a career. If you have an issue with my attitude then you can go to Hell.
Jax,
1. "first with a failed school system" Not. Duval County schools were actually dis-accredited for years in the late '50's and early 6o's. They were double sessions too as the first of the boomers came along.
2. "Drug abuse rampant and socially acceptable now" And then. Four martini lunches and mother's little pink pills. Everybody was taking tranquilizers which were new. Everybody smoked like chimneys.
3. "First to endure divorce and promiscuity". Absolutely laughable. Not as much divorce, maybe, but just as many with separate bedrooms or living apart. There were brothels on Bay Street and whole swarms of professional ladies who came to Jacksonville during the summer when families were in the mountains of North Carolina and Dads moved into the air-conditioned hotels downtown. Even my grandparents didn't live together after their first few years of marriage.
You've watched too much Ozzie and Harriet.
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 03, 2011, 02:20:56 PM
You've watched too much Ozzie and Harriet.
+1
Seems like he's longing for something that never really existed in the first place.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 01:51:28 PM
Quote from: DeadGirlsDontDance on September 03, 2011, 12:38:19 PM
Um, so, conservatives are angry about being weaned early?
My mother was physically incapable of carrying a baby to term and never should have gotten pregnant. But she was pregnant anyway before she was 17 years old. I was born 10 weeks premature. I spent the first 2 months of my life in an incubator. The next workday I was handed over to a babysitter.
My parents were divorced before I was 6 years old. My mother didn't think I was worth demanding child support for, and my father never paid the child support the judge ordered him to pay anyway. I haven’t seen my father more a few dozen times in the past 30 years and there’s been absolutely no contact with him since 1983, and my mother has never cared that my father has abandoned me.
My mother usually worked 50-60 hours a week under the guise of making ends meet, but for all practical purpose I've never had anything to show for it. My current crippling and potentially life-ending medical problems are a direct result of the physical neglect I endured while growing up because my mother simply didn’t give a damn.
So I have every right to resent women who abandon their children for a career. If you have an issue with my attitude then you can go to Hell.
Oh dear!
You are to be a potential spiritual mentor to my children?
We all have issues. That's why God invented clothing and therapy.
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 03, 2011, 02:20:56 PM
Jax,
1. "first with a failed school system" Not. Duval County schools were actually dis-accredited for years in the late '50's and early 6o's. They were double sessions too as the first of the boomers came along.
Tell me something I don't already know. Now tell me how failing schools didn't become a national problem in the 1970s and 1980s when my generation was in school.
Quote2. "Drug abuse rampant and socially acceptable now" And then. Four martini lunches and mother's little pink pills. Everybody was taking tranquilizers which were new. Everybody smoked like chimneys.
That is my whole point. The baby boomers created the drug culture that my generation has had to deal with.
Quote3. "First to endure divorce and promiscuity". Absolutely laughable. Not as much divorce, maybe, but just as many with separate bedrooms or living apart. There were brothels on Bay Street and whole swarms of professional ladies who came to Jacksonville during the summer when families were in the mountains of North Carolina and Dads moved into the air-conditioned hotels downtown. Even my grandparents didn't live together after their first few years of marriage.
What was the illegitimacy rate before the Boomers’ sexual revolution compared to what it is now?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/dec/01/20061201-084845-1917r/
In 1960 only 5.3% of total births in the U.S. were to women who were not married.
In 2005 36.8% of total births were to women who were not married.
Illegitimacy aggravates (if it doesn’t in fact cause) an assortment of social pathologies.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/365483/poverty_and_the_single_parent.html
In 2003 27.5% of the children who were living in poverty were also living in a non-married parent household. And 42.3% of the children who were being raised by an unmarried mother were living in poverty.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2002/04/The-Effect-of-Marriage-on-Child-Poverty
In the mid-1990s only 8.2% of the children who were living in two-parent households were living in poverty. 35.2% of the children who were living in single parent households were living in poverty.
http://patriot.net/~crouch/adc/jds.html
“Children reared in fatherless homes are more than twice as likely to
become male adolescent delinquents or teen mothers, according to a
significant new study by two economists at the University of
California, Santa Barbara.â€
http://patriot.net/~crouch/adr/kids.html
70% of the people who are serving long-term prison sentences grew up without a father.
60% of adolescents who are in prison for rape grew up without a father as did 75% of adolescents who are in prison for murder.
Children without fathers are 3 times more like to fail in school, require psychiatric care or commit suicide as adolescents.
Children without fathers are 40 times more likely than children with both parents to experience child abuse.
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2011, 03:03:44 PM
You are to be a potential spiritual mentor to my children?
What makes you think I would want to be the spiritual mentor of your children? If you are any indication, they probably wouldn’t be worth the effort.
^Uh, you are the guy who wants to start a Christian private school, correct?
Quote from: Tacachale on September 03, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
^Uh, you are the guy who wants to start a Christian private school, correct?
And that obligates me to enroll
your children? There will be selection criteria that children whose parents are liberals, libertarians or false Christians will not be able to meet.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 05:51:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 03, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
^Uh, you are the guy who wants to start a Christian private school, correct?
And that obligates me to enroll your children? There will be selection criteria that children whose parents are liberals, libertarians or false Christians will not be able to meet.
Oh this oughtta be good...for business!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 03, 2011, 06:18:00 PM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 05:51:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 03, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
^Uh, you are the guy who wants to start a Christian private school, correct?
And that obligates me to enroll your children? There will be selection criteria that children whose parents are liberals, libertarians or false Christians will not be able to meet.
Oh this oughtta be good...for business!
I don't recall saying anything about running a business- because the school will not be a business. The school I want to open will be a non-profit operation. Any money that comes in over and above the school's operating costs will be used for expansion and then to set up a scholarship fund.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 03:43:38 PM
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2011, 03:03:44 PM
You are to be a potential spiritual mentor to my children?
What makes you think I would want to be the spiritual mentor of your children? If you are any indication, they probably wouldn’t be worth the effort.
Your inclination toward prejudice is showing. I understand you are feeling a bit inundated by all the "liberals" piling on, but you should try to address issues without the emotional baggage.
I was actually rooting for you to make a conservative stand, as a few do here. The more you post, however, the more I see an emotional reactionary rather than a steady conservative.
You claim your intention to run some sort of school, which has a basis in Christian faith. My post was "for the sake of argument" as I would not subject my children to the whims of a religious zealot with anger management issues.
I already did time of my own at Trinity Christian Academy, while my wife was sentenced to Bishop Kenny.
BTDT
Uh...hate to jump into the middle of such a spirited discussion, and I know this is going to sound like straight hyperbole and overkill, but jesus jax-native68, you sound insane!!
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2011, 08:07:13 PM
Your inclination toward prejudice is showing.
The Constitutions of both the United States and the State of Florida give me a right to practice my religion without interference. And my religion requires me to be prejudiced against people that do not accept it. Get over it.
Quote from: ben says on September 03, 2011, 08:26:34 PM
Uh...hate to jump into the middle of such a spirited discussion, and I know this is going to sound like straight hyperbole and overkill, but jesus jax-native68, you sound insane!!
And all you libs sound like a generation of vipers.
You are confused jax native...
It's getting kinda creepy in here...
And yes I do know my history. I am a boomer and I am older than you, but I am definitively not as bitter as you.
My whole reason for making the joke earlier today is I really did think you came here to create your own "chaos," and you have succeeded admirable.
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ : Mathew 25
promote the general welfare : The preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. :Thomas Jefferson
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 11:58:51 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
Western Liberal Democracy has had episodes of turbulence and the conservatives of western aristocracy had just as many.
Examples? Documentation?
You need me to cite ninth grade history and civics?
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 09:18:22 PM
And all you libs sound like a generation of vipers.
Award for creepiest metrojax posting of 2011.
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
but I am definitively not as bitter as you.
Your generation has nothing to be bitter about. You were allowed to do as you pleased, when you pleased and where you pleased. When you slept around society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you got high society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you implemented no-fault divorce society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you abandoned your children to daycare and babysitters society no longer told you that you were wrong.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 11:01:50 PM
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ : Mathew 25
promote the general welfare : The preamble to the Constitution of the United States of America
The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government. :Thomas Jefferson
What is your point other than to illustrate the fact that Jesus put the burden of social welfare on His Church, not the taxpayers or the government?
The Bible commands: II Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
Raising generation after generation on welfare is not pleasing to the Lord God.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 11:03:56 PM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 11:58:51 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 03, 2011, 10:59:50 AM
Western Liberal Democracy has had episodes of turbulence and the conservatives of western aristocracy had just as many.
Examples? Documentation?
You need me to cite ninth grade history and civics?
If you expect me to give credence to your claim, yes.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 01:23:51 AM
Sorry, ive been away from this conversation all day, as Ive been filming.
I have to say, jaxnative68 that you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Neither about liberals, nor about conservatives.
Ive never heard so much drivel in my life.
Well then tell me what your education is so I can judge whether or not you are qualified to make such assertions.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 01:35:28 AM
equality of the races
A conservative goal since inequality of the races in a multi-racial society presents the risk of social upheaval, i.e., chaos. The people who supported Jim Crow and fought to maintain it were reactionaries, not conservatives. A reactionary is so afraid of change that he is willing to risk wholesale revolution rather than agree to change of even the most incremental size. If you had bothered to actually read all of what I posted, you would have known this.
Quoteand the food and drug administration.
Again, a conservative idea. No legitimate conservative is in favor of laissez-faire economics because human nature sees to it that whenever someone is left to their own devices to exercise their rights in order to maximize their own individual self-interest they will invariably infringe on the rights of others. Thus a conservative’s goal is to regulate rights for the individual in order to maximize rights for everyone. Furthermore, laissez-faire economics means buyers and sellers in the unregulated free market have no expectation that they can trust each other. Thus the free market dissolves and chaos is created.
QuoteVoting rights for women.
A liberal policy that lead directly to the feminist movement of the 1960s which lead to the dissolution of the family unit which lead to the destruction of the stable functional and self-sustaining society that conservatives want.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
but I am definitively not as bitter as you.
Your generation has nothing to be bitter about. You were allowed to do as you pleased, when you pleased and where you pleased. When you slept around society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you got high society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you implemented no-fault divorce society no longer told you that you were wrong.
And it has never dawned on you that there is, in fact, nothing "wrong" either morally or in reality with any of the above?
Never dawned on you that the society you grew up in did all of that (and then some) but simply hid it while preaching what they didn't practice? Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck. Many of us enjoy alcohol or other things. None of us enjoy being saddled with someone who makes us unhappy.
Welcome to real life.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 03, 2011, 05:51:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 03, 2011, 03:58:11 PM
^Uh, you are the guy who wants to start a Christian private school, correct?
And that obligates me to enroll your children? There will be selection criteria that children whose parents are liberals, libertarians or false Christians will not be able to meet.
With your positive, amiable attitude, I'm sure you'll be successful in your venture.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/chriswufgator/TrumanShowMJEdition.jpg)
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
but I am definitively not as bitter as you.
Your generation has nothing to be bitter about. You were allowed to do as you pleased, when you pleased and where you pleased. When you slept around society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you got high society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you implemented no-fault divorce society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you abandoned your children to daycare and babysitters society no longer told you that you were wrong.
But jax native I did none of those things. The baby boom generation did not destroy this country or the world. The children of baby boomers are responsible too. So many people born after me feel entitled and my generation is responsible for that. Many mothers work outside the home to make the spoiled brats of your generation able to have all the crap we didn't have. If anything my generation wanted to give their children more than they had and a better life than they had. We just created a society of greedy and selfish "me" people. So even if you are right, it is not just my generation, but yours and most since.
And noone told you that conservative policy only helps the wealthy....and noone told you to stop drinking and smoking and now we have 75% of the older generation dying of lung cancer and alcoholism....but of course that's ok because the conservative perfer everyone sick of cancer right?...
Think of your fellow man
Lend him a helping hand
Put a little love in your heart
You see it's getting late
Oh, please don't hesitate
Put a little love in your heart
And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see
Another day goes by
Still the children cry
Put a little love in your heart
If you want the world to know
We won't let hatred grow
Put a little love in your heart
And the world (and the world)
will be a better place
All the world (all the world)
will be a better place
For you (for you)
And me (and me)
You just wait (just wait)
And see, wait and see
Take a good look around
And if you're looking down
Put a little love in your hear
t I hope when you decide
Kindness will be your guide
Put a little love in your heart
And the world (and the world)
will be a better place
And the world (and the world)
will be a better place
For you (for you)
And me (and me)
You just wait (just wait) And see
People, now put a little love in your heart
Each and every day
Put a little love in your heart
There's no other way
Put a little love in your heart
It's up to you Put a little love in your heart
C'mon and Put a little love in your heart
Source: http://lyrics-a-plenty.com/p/put_a_little_love_in_your_heart.lyrics.php
Quote from: avonjax on September 04, 2011, 09:46:48 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 08:26:55 AM
Quote from: avonjax on September 03, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
but I am definitively not as bitter as you.
Your generation has nothing to be bitter about. You were allowed to do as you pleased, when you pleased and where you pleased. When you slept around society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you got high society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you implemented fault divorce society no longer told you that you were wrong. When you abandoned your children to daycare and babysitters society no longer told you that you were wrong.
Greedy selfish mean people...sounds just like the republican party doesn't it?....conservative republicans are all about me..not we...and they say they are pro American...no..they are pro rich people who make all of the rules....how many poor boys are on the rule making committee?
But jax native I did none of those things. The baby boom generation did not destroy this country or the world. The children of baby boomers are responsible too. So many people born after me feel entitled and my generation is responsible for that. Many mothers work outside the home to make the spoiled brats of your generation able to have all the crap we didn't have. If anything my generation wanted to give their children more than they had and a better life than they had. We just created a society of greedy and selfish "me" people. So even if you are right, it is not just my generation, but yours and most since.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator link=topic=13092.msg242712#msg242712Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck.
Your vulgarity speaks volumes for your intelligence. If you expect people to read what you post, let alone give it any credence, you owe them the courtesy of not subjecting them to your lack of class.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 09:46:23 AMAll of these things are and were liberal, not conservative.
Prove it.
You should note that the world's first social security system was created by Imperial German Chancellor Otto von Bismark. The socialists in Germany were clamoring for social revolution so Bismark created a social security system to take the wind out of the socialists’ sails. Bismark is known to historians as an arch-conservative.
You should also read up on Edmund Burke, the man historians credit as the founder of Anglo-American conservatism. http://praxeology.net/EB-EIP.htm
The people you take as being conservatives are actually libertarians and reactionaries.
Well at least we know have the clearest definition of conservatism so far; Prussian militarism and Imperialism = arch-conservatism. Not a hint of democracy or equal rights anywhere, just authoritarianism.
True colors are showing.
Quote from: avonjax on September 04, 2011, 09:46:48 AM
The baby boom generation did not destroy this country or the world.
You are utterly delusional.
QuoteThe children of baby boomers are responsible too.
Who do you think taught my generation to behave as our parents did if not our parents, the Baby Boomers?
QuoteMany mothers work outside the home to make the spoiled brats of your generation able to have all the crap we didn't have.
You are merely proving my point. The generation that endured the Great Depression and fought and won World War II was community-minded and utterly self-sacrificing. But then they produced the Baby Boomers without instilling in them the values that made it possible to endure the Great Depression and win World War II. Society dissolved with the advent of the Boomers and the Boomers perpetuated the disaster into succeeding generations.
QuoteIf anything my generation wanted to give their children more than they had and a better life than they had.
What is better- a mother who spends time on her children or a mother who spends money on her children to compensate for the fact that she won’t spend time with her children?
QuoteWe just created a society of greedy and selfish "me" people. So even if you are right, it is not just my generation, but yours and most since.
Again, where do you think my generation learned it from if not the generation that raised us?
Quote from: Garden guy on September 04, 2011, 09:50:49 AM
And noone told you that conservative policy only helps the wealthy....and noone told you to stop drinking and smoking and now we have 75% of the older generation dying of lung cancer and alcoholism....but of course that's ok because the conservative perfer everyone sick of cancer right?...
What are you babbling about?
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 10:05:24 AM
Thank god for the 1960s actually.
They made this country more moral, better, and finer. They strengthened our institutions, rekindled hope in our people, and provided a blueprint for happiness that the world has marveled after.
What made the sixties turbulent wasnt people marching and demonstrating for equality in the civil rights movement, but rather the narrowminded evil people who firebombed and beat the marchers, and hung the advocates, and shot the leaders of the crusade.
The only evil associated with the student activism was the calling out of Federal troops to gas and shoot at them by ronald Reagan in California, and eventually the murders of students at Kent State. Why? For peacefully marching against a war.
And the lynchings, beatings, murders, electrocution, imprisonment, eviction, by 'conservatives' against people for the crime of being gay.
And the lynchings, murders, electrocution, imprisonment, eviction, lobotomization, prison rapes and worse by 'conservatives' against people for the crime of being mentally ill.
Its bizarre that people look back at the sixties, and the literal assassinations of liberal leaders like John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X, the mass violence committed by the Klan in every state of old Dixie, the beatings of gay and lesbian people by thugs, the rape of gays, lesbians and prostitutes by cops, the firebombings of suspected communists, the schoolyard bullying, the casual acceptance of brutal domestic violence, and a history of child abuse that is so horrific, most old timers simply dont talk about their childhood 'discipline' and seem to not notice it.
Instead, like jaxnative, they look at the protests and claim 'Turbulence'.
Which is complete bullshit.
And Jaxnative, im surprised at you, buying into such a childishly flawed view of the past.
Im sorry your mom didnt like you as much as you feel she should have, but that isnt anyone's fault but hers---the rest of the world simply cannot pay for your flawed family dynamics. You just have to suck it up and be a man about it.
I just lost my breakfast.
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator link=topic=13092.msg242712#msg242712Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck.
Your vulgarity speaks volumes for your intelligence. If you expect people to read what you post, let alone give it any credence, you owe them the courtesy of not subjecting them to your lack of class.
What lacks class is to pretend that there are 'vulgar' words. We do like to fuck, at least most of the human race does, and I bet you do too. Does this make you vulgar?
You can all go to Hell.
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator link=topic=13092.msg242712#msg242712Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck.
Your vulgarity speaks volumes for your intelligence. If you expect people to read what you post, let alone give it any credence, you owe them the courtesy of not subjecting them to your lack of class.
What lacks class is to pretend that there are 'vulgar' words. We do like to fuck, at least most of the human race does, and I bet you do too. Does this make you vulgar?
You can all go to Hell.
Ah, rational discourse!
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 04, 2011, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:39:13 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 04, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator link=topic=13092.msg242712#msg242712Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck.
Your vulgarity speaks volumes for your intelligence. If you expect people to read what you post, let alone give it any credence, you owe them the courtesy of not subjecting them to your lack of class.
What lacks class is to pretend that there are 'vulgar' words. We do like to fuck, at least most of the human race does, and I bet you do too. Does this make you vulgar?
You can all go to Hell.
Ah, rational discourse!
dog walker, i love you.
jax-native68, what the hell's wrong with you lately?
Quote from: jax-native68 on September 04, 2011, 11:19:26 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator link=topic=13092.msg242712#msg242712Never dawned on you that this is human nature? We're human. We like freedom. We like to fuck.
Your vulgarity speaks volumes for your intelligence. If you expect people to read what you post, let alone give it any credence, you owe them the courtesy of not subjecting them to your lack of class.
My lack of class, eh? What an odd notion. Personally, I happen to agree with you, but not for the reason you think. Most other people wouldn't agree with us on that. What matters to them, I went to the best boarding schools, my family came over on the boat with William Penn, I'm well-educated, I'm not poor. I can discuss any topic with whatever minimum amount of eloquence and feigned interest is required. To most people, all of that tripe constitutes class. Those are the same people who call a word choice classless. As you did. Which is artificial, and ironic. What matters is not what you say in life but who you are. Most people concerned with class don't have it. I've met better people than I could ever be, who simply never caught a break in life. I have more money, and I can use bigger words. I could even avoid saying "fuck" to fit in with your definition of "class." That hardly means I have any. In fact, if you get down to the nitty-gritty here, simply following all of this to its natural conclusion, I suspect you'd probably agree that conforming to your artificial expectations would be a classless act. After all, when has pretending to be anything but what you are, in order to please someone else, ever been classy? Such make-believe may often be an easy and incomplete answer to difficult questions, but that sort of charade is about as classless as it gets.
Take that advice or leave it. Your choice. Life is awfully short to hamstring yourself, and others, with unrealistic expectations.
jax-native, you sound like a serial killer
Today is Labor Day.
Welfare-The govt. will pay you if you don't work
Glorified Welfare-2005-1007
Our city is broke.
501-c- So as to have the ability to stick your hand out. c-conservative??
When is the next Pub Crawl?
Who wants to kayak Hogans Creek? We'll Make it Happen.