Metro Jacksonville

Well, the worst of several high speed rail plans that I've seen in my lifetime has gone down in flames, much to the benefit of the high speed rail movement in the United States. I'd rather have NO railroad system then a BAD and dysfunctional railroad system...

But here in JACKSONVILLE we have new fish to fry...  STREETCAR...
and this thread is about STREETCARS and URBAN TRANSIT.

It's smart, clean, and could well be funded by the end of this year...

For those that are interested the JACKSONVILLE HISTORICAL SOCIETY has a series on their website, STREETCAR I, II and III. Included is the following excerpt:

GETTING THERE FROM HERE -- Forty minutes to Ortega Island, and thirty to the Trout River on the Northside:  This is how long it took some of Jacksonville's streetcars to run from the downtown area in 1931, according to that year's Comprehensive City Plan.  Other travel times from downtown included ten minutes to Springfield and twenty-five to the vicinity of today's FCCJ Kent Campus on the Westside.  Is the present JTA bus schedule very much faster, especially considering any transfers from vehicle to vehicle?

The streetcar system did leave a lot to be desired, however, in the opinion of the City Plan from 1931.  The document stated that the local residents most affected were African Americans, who relied on trolleys more than white inhabitants did.  In the Plan's words, "As the town grew, its colored areas grew likewise, adjacent to the white areas.  As a result, the several separate and distinct colored areas came into being.  But now with the advent of business and industry into some of those old areas, the residents there are being forced father and farther from their places of labor to the point in some instances that domestics are required to travel on street cars an hour or more before reaching their destinations...  And as the city increases in population and area, this situation will become even more acute... (A)t this time, a domestic residing in the neighborhood of Davis and Eighth Street will consume 40-45 minutes in continuous riding time in going from her home to the site of her day's work in Avondale, regardless and irrespective of waits and transfers!  This state of affairs is not only unfair to the negro element but likewise unfair to those dependent upon them for domestic service.  This condition is due to the routings of the transit system with its bottle neck at Broad and Bay and the obsolete system of looping."

Within a few years of the report, however, the city's streetcars would lose their battle with (Motor Transit - National City Lines - GENERAL MOTORS) buses.  Springfield, for example, had its trolley cars replaced by these competitors in June 1934.  According to a Jacksonville Journal article from July 6, 1934, the last remaining streetcar lines in the city operated in the areas of La Villa, South Jacksonville, Kings Road, Edison-Fairfield (the Eastside), and Florida Avenue (today's A. Philip Randolph Boulevard on the Eastside).  And in December 1936, Jax streetcars would make their final runs.

So as usual, I picked up the challenge to the streetcars reputation:

"Davis and Eighth Street will consume 40-45 minutes in continuous riding time in going from her home to the site of her day's work in Avondale, regardless and irrespective of waits and transfers!"


It should be pointed out that our streetcar system had many miles of private
right-of-way, such as the median of Main, as well as alongside Grand, Baltic
and many other streets. As a result the comparison of travel times between
the streetcars and today's JTA in the article are misleading.

Based on the anecdotal times in the story:
40 minutes to Ortega from 8th and Davis
30 minutes to the Trout River from downtown. (which btw, the streetcars
never quite reached)

Today's times based on the JTA TRIP PLANNER, are the same at best, and much
worse in many cases.

THIS IS JTA TODAY:

5:50 AM...................6:00 AM...........6:24AM
Leave Pearl & Bay      RosaParks        48th & Main

The times above are 34 minutes for the CT-1 from downtown to 48th and Main,
a trip the streetcar made in 30 minutes.

"A domestic traveling from 2700 Davis to the Ortega Village" Is in for a
surprise...

The trip starts with the M-5,  From Davis to Rosa Parks
Where we transfer
The next phase is on the WS-2 which takes us to Roosevelt Plaza
Where we transfer
The final link is aboard the Ortega - NAS Neighborhood Shuttle
TOTAL ELAPSED TIME?

Streetcar - 1930 - 40 minutes with one transfer.
JTA Modern Bus - 2011 - 1 hour and 20 minutes with two transfers!

How about downtown to the vicinity of KENT CAMPUS FSCJ?

STREETCAR - 25 MINUTES
JTA = 27 MINUTES

# Go to: Rosa Parks Station, Hogan St. & Union St.
# Board: J.T.A. W.S.12 Line/Murray Hill-Edgewood at 7:00 pm (next 8:00 pm)
# Fare: Pay $1.00
# Get Off: F.S.C.J. Kent Campus at 7:27 pm

BY THE WAY, the streetcar system issued a transfer which allowed one to pass
from one car line to another in a single trip for a single fare. JTA, unlike
most every other transit agency in the world, can't spell  T R A N S F E R. For fear of losing dollar per passenger in extra fare - Makes one wonder how many MORE people would use the system if transfers returned?

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...I hate to tell you this...but the chances of street car in Jax. or any transit in Florida was dealt a huge blow today....we'll have a hard time funding these things w/ all local dollars, and the Feds aren't going to be too enthused about helping Florida with rail projects for a while.

With fuel prices soaring ,,,and seemingly never-ending skyrocketing prices,  It seems now , more than ever before , it is time to take a closer look at alternative transportation methods such as this.

The Feds ..The Feds...The Feds....   are killing us .

That is the exact thought I had today lets jump ahead of the rest of the State.

Agreed...the sooner the better.  Enough !

^Preach it.

We need a bigger voice for it.  Metro Jacksonville is great and reaches many people.  But I'm not sure it is enough provide a critical mass of supporters.  Ultimately we are going to need to start advertising on billboards and television.

We all need to support transit in general, not just streetcars, high speed rail, commuter rail, or whatever.  With TOD and a policy on complete streets, we could get a lot more benefit out of the transit system that we already have, and if  we don't have TOD and complete streets in place beforehand, we won't benefit much from rail.  So let's get moving!

Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2011, 10:30:16 PM
whatever.  Because neither the national press or the feds missed the fact that we have an asshole for a governor?

Sometimes the defeatism is just breathtaking TUFSU.  Youve patiently explained for three years how nothing is possible and things are working out just fine.

hey...I'm not the one supporting a candidate for Mayor that sounds more and more like the Governor every day (check out his new TV ad)...and he even mentions that he is friends with the Governor during stump speaches.

Though I'm not knowledgeable enough to debate you all on this, as a believer in public transportation, I thought I'd throw a few perceptions / thoughts out as a commoner (after all, commoners need convincing).  

If the Skyway had never been started, I would wholeheartedly be into the Streetcar thing; it's less expensive and operates at eye level, which probably draws more people into riding it.  

When I lived up north, debates on public transit often included the contention that transferring from one system to another is where time starts to add up.  I believe I've seen that disputed on Metrojacksonville.  

From my view, I'd be enamored with the idea of parking / living anywhere downtown, north or southbank, and only needing to ride the Skyway to get to the sports complex, convention center, "amusement park", Friendship Fountain, MOSH, Riverside etc., etc..      

The Skyway can't go everywhere, and there's enough room for both the Skyway and streetcars I assume, but I get a bit queasy thinking of not first trying to extend that system than add streetcars (for example, going to the sports complex  -- I think I've seen arguments about using streetcars to get there).  

After the Acosta bridge $'s, maintenance center, operations center, development of a knowledge base, does it remain so prohibitively expensive for extensions so as to not push for extensions first?  

So, in sum, I guess what needs to be clearly explained to someone like me are: the finances (Skyway: sunk costs versus "throwing good money after bad", new extensions; costs of new systems, ) and the perception that adding diff't types of transit causes a travel burden.

All the ideas I read here are great.  I just don't know how to conceptualize the overall plan and come to my own firm opinions when I see the push for Streetcars.

Enjoy the weekend everybody and thanks for sharing your knowledge!      
 

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 24, 2011, 10:12:36 PM
Ock...I hate to tell you this...but the chances of street car in Jax. or any transit in Florida was dealt a huge blow today....we'll have a hard time funding these things w/ all local dollars, and the Feds aren't going to be too enthused about helping Florida with rail projects for a while.

BULL SHIT!

Scott isn''t the Mayor, isn't the Council, isn't Jacksonville...

Scott isn't Mass Transit, isn't High Speed Rail, isn't...

We have a mobility plan which with final approval makes Scott largely irrelevant.

We don't need FLORIDA

We don't need UNCLE SAM

WE ARE JACKSONVILLE STREETCAR!

OCKLAWAHA

I actually agree with tufsu1 on this one.  At some point people are going to have to start dreaming and begin relating funding issues with real timelines.  Scott's moves are really screwing up things and the domino effect will definitely impact local mass transit plans.

On the mass transit side, the majority of the listed mobility plan projects were intended to assist, not totally fund.  If we can't get state support for commuter rail, it will be delayed because the money or desire to raise taxes just isn't there.  In addition to this, there's also a push by the development community to take away concurrency altogether, so at this point, its still not a giving that the mobility fee will become a reality.  

Furthermore, in the event that it is, there are only two rail-based projects in the 10-year CIE.  
One is a fully funded $50 million streetcar line between DT and Park & King.  The other is a 25% local match (meaning you still need 25% state, 50% federal) for the north commuter rail corridor.  Thus, in 10 years, if everything worked out to plan, all we would have that we don't have now is a 3.5 mile streetcar line to Riverside in operation.

Btw, here is a list of all the priority projects projected to be funded by the mobility plan between now 2020.

Zone 1 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between I-95 and Baymeadows Road) - $27 million

Zone 2 - Southside Blvd (4 to 6 lanes between JTB and Beach Blvd) - $40.1 million

Zone 3 - New Berlin Road (2 to 4 lanes between Pulaski and Cedar Point Rd) - $39.5 million

Zone 4 - Dunn Avenue (2 to 4 lanes between New Kings and I-295) - $23.8 million

Zone 5 - Trout River Blvd (2 to 4 lanes between Old Kings to New Kings Rd) - $6.1 million

Zone 6 - Normandy Blvd (4 to 6 lanes between 103rd St to I-295) - $54.3 million

Zone 7 - Streetcar (downtown to Riverside-King Street) - $50 million

Zone 8 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between JTB and University) - $27 million

Zone 9 - North Commuter rail corridor (DT to Zoo Parkway) - $20 million


Just in case everyone is interested, here is a list of all the mass transit projects listed in the Mobility Plan.  However, all aren't anticipated to be completed until 2030/2035.

1. Commuter Rail (DT to Airport Center Drive) - $31.25 million as 25% local match by MP ($125 million total).

2. Commuter Rail SE (DT to Avenues Walk) - $20 million as 25% local match by MP ($80 million total).

3. Commuter Rail SW (DT to I-295) - $29 million as 25% local match by MP ($117 million total)

4. Streetcar (DT to Park & King) - $50 million fully funded by MP

5. Skyway (Kings Ave to Atlantic Blvd) - $21 million fully funded by MP


This would be my advice at this point.

1. Make sure a visionary mayor is elected next month. Get the wrong person in and the MP could be up in smoke as well.

2. Focus on better utilizing the Skyway to increase ridership and cut down O&M costs before 2017.

3. Integrate DT/urban core land use development plans with skyway corridor, BRT, future commuter rail and streetcar alignments.

4. In the short term, focus on improving mass transit connectivity in the urban core.  We're stretching ourselves to thin trying to force mass transit all over a suburban city. Instead, we'll get more bang for our buck by focusing on areas that can actually support it and expanding from there.

5. Continue to educate others on the importance of mass transit and work to find creative solutions to funding problems.

Quote
Zone 8 - Philips Highway (4 to 6 lanes between Emerson and University) - $27 million

I'd say this is 100% not needed.  I drove this route every day for 15 months and never once felt like traffic was too much for the rode capacity.  Fixing the signaling at Bowden/University and Philips would be a better and cheaper fix.

My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

 

Quote from: thelakelander on February 25, 2011, 09:54:01 AM
My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.

Quote from: stephendare on February 25, 2011, 10:04:28 AM

QuoteThis would be my advice at this point.

1. Make sure a visionary mayor is elected next month. Get the wrong person in and the MP could be up in smoke as well.

2. Focus on better utilizing the Skyway to increase ridership and cut down O&M costs before 2017.

3. Integrate DT/urban core land use development plans with skyway corridor, BRT, future commuter rail and streetcar alignments.

4. In the short term, focus on improving mass transit connectivity in the urban core.  We're stretching ourselves to thin trying to force mass transit all over a suburban city. Instead, we'll get more bang for our buck by focusing on areas that can actually support it and expanding from there.

5. Continue to educate others on the importance of mass transit and work to find creative solutions to funding problems.

exactly.

I agree - Lakelander has nailed it for us.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 25, 2011, 10:07:46 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 25, 2011, 09:54:01 AM
My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.

JTA does have a plan to completely redo the intersection of JTB/I95/Philips however the ultimate fix is like $140MM so the likelihood of that happending anytime soon is not all that great.  

You are corrrect though, Philips really doesn't have any capacity issues right now except at a few intersections during the peak hour.  Philips and Shad road could probably use dual WB left turn lanes and that would help.  The intersection at University is probably beyond hope during the peak hour outside of building an overpass.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 25, 2011, 10:07:46 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 25, 2011, 09:54:01 AM
My bad, its not the stretch between Emerson & University.  Its the stretch between University and JTB.  Thus, it would address the intersection you just mentioned.

^ That is probably more needed, but again I think a signaling change at the intersection of JTB and Philips, or the proposed redo of that entire stretch of road from Belfort to Philips, would be a more effective remedy.  Philips highway isn't fantastic to drive on, but I think the capacity of the road is fine.  Dealing with the many intersections you have are the bigger problem, IMO.  

A rail line paralleling Philips would do much more for that area.  Imagine how many people would be sitting at the intersection of Philips and JTB, see a train whiz by them, and then start to use that as their daily commute option.

You can't see the tracks from Philips.  Nevertheless, when speaking about Philips and the future of transit oriented development along that corridor, significant road improvements will have to be made.  Right now, its a rural divided road with poor lighting, no sidewalks, no curb & gutter and no bike facilities.  All of these things, which are essential for walkability and urban development, would be included in road projects being funded by the mobility plan.  Thus, in this case, a widening in this particular area complements future commuter rail plans (even though those commuter rail plans have now been made more complicated to pull off with Rick Scott in Tallahassee).

Btw, the mobility plan projects address transportation capacity issues that are estimated to happen on roadway segment links by 2030.  It isn't intended to fund today's capacity issues.

Does anyone know if the Jackson Square project is completely dead or is there a possiblity it may be resurrected?

I believe its just indefinitely delayed until the economic improves.  Nevertheless, its something I wouldn't count on becoming reality before 2015.  With no reliable transit in place, a dead housing market and a poor economy, it will be a while.

Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board Chairman Michael Cavendish and Executive Director Michael Blaylock will be riding the transit system Friday in  order to talk to riders about their experiences.

Cavendish, who became the chairman of JTA's board in January, stated when elected  he wanted to hear what riders had to say.

This will be one of several trips he has planned during his tenure.

Cavendish and Blaylock will spend two hours riding the bus and trolley system before reviewing the Skyway.

I picked this up from the TU. Just thought it might be a good way to get face time with the powers that be.

Quote from: stephendare on February 25, 2011, 10:03:26 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 25, 2011, 08:02:43 AM

Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2011, 10:30:16 PM
whatever.  Because neither the national press or the feds missed the fact that we have an asshole for a governor?

Sometimes the defeatism is just breathtaking TUFSU.  Youve patiently explained for three years how nothing is possible and things are working out just fine.

hey...I'm not the one supporting a candidate for Mayor that sounds more and more like the Governor every day (check out his new TV ad)...and he even mentions that he is friends with the Governor during stump speaches.

What on earth does this have to do with the notion that our relationship as a state or a city is irreparably damaged by our asshole governor, or that no one will be able to get federal funding for a project.

Ocklawaha is kidding himself if he thinks we can just fund it municipally, or even privately on a local level, but I would posit that the federal government can read the same newspapers that we can, and can see the same statewide outrage that we can, and can come to the same conclusions as everyone else.  This isnt a parent child relationship that Florida has with them after all.

This sorta goes back to what I brought up in another thread & what many others have been saying. Now that the HSR project is dead, we need to focus efforts locally (all over the state) to get our transit systems up to snuff. That's why we need a good Mayor here with vision who can work with the Administration for grants to help with cost (Scott can just suck it if he doesn't like it). But, it could go the other way too. If we get a Mayor in here that's been "Teabagged", then you can pretty much kiss it goodbye for a while.

But I'd much rather have seen that HSR money be split up & gone towards local transit, with the intention of connecting them up with HSR later. I think that's a healthier way of doing it.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 25, 2011, 05:01:27 AM
We need a bigger voice for it.  Metro Jacksonville is great and reaches many people.  But I'm not sure it is enough provide a critical mass of supporters.  Ultimately we are going to need to start advertising on billboards and television.

I wonder if there is any way MetroJacksonville could partner up with a local TV news agency to provide segments from time to time about stories related to urban development on the local news. I know people have mentioned a full on MetroJax tv show, but maybe this would help get a foot in the door for new ideas minus the production costs of an entire new television show.

Quote from: stephendare on February 25, 2011, 10:03:26 AM
What on earth does this have to do with the notion that our relationship as a state or a city is irreparably damaged by our asshole governor, or that no one will be able to get federal funding for a project.

Ocklawaha is kidding himself if he thinks we can just fund it municipally, or even privately on a local level, but I would posit that the federal government can read the same newspapers that we can, and can see the same statewide outrage that we can, and can come to the same conclusions as everyone else.  This isn't a parent child relationship that Florida has with them after all.

NOPE, not kidding myself...or you...or anybody else. There are only about 10,000 things we can do to bump up our intra-city transportation.

Reconfigure bus routes, adding frequencies where needed and getting the system acting like BRT. This can be done with careful surgical cutting in area's where it's not needed or redundant.

Streetcar, I'M TALKING HERITAGE STREETCAR, vintage, authentic, period streetcars and a system economical enough that many places have them built by volunteer railroad nuts, and donations. Can be done, has been done, been there done that.

Keep in mind that with Streetcar and/or Interurban's or Light Rail in general, modern cars can and do operate on the same track as the vintage cars...

Step 1, get basic starter line up and running
Step 2, collect some very cool period vehicles
Step 3, blend the operation with JTA-BUS-SKYWAY
Step 4, down the road expansion can include modern LRV'S and modern fixtures...

EXPANSION TO GATEWAY MALL from downtown, using the Beaver Street Alignment over Hogans Creek and turning north between Springfield and Eastside, 100% (or nearly so) of the grade is in place and city owned.

Commuter Rail can be done using a similar model, used but excellent equipment, a handful of RDC cars, simple platform/bus shelter stations, and expand from there.
In case of the line North, Uncle Sam can be pulled in as well as "UNCLE SCOTT," under the label of PORT ACCESS and EXPANSION. The "s" line is key to both Port and Commuter Rail, why not use what we have to get those matching dollars?

Belt Line Railroad around the Northside, 100% within the 300+ foot right-of-way of the JEA Electric Transmission Lines. JPA could get the grants for this project completely from the freight and intermodal aspect. Add a spur to the Airport Free Trade Zone, and we can pull in JAA. Not to mention about 1,000 sources of other creative grants ranging from emission abatement to wetlands protection. Rail would be used (an industry standard called relay) ...and doesn't Gate make CONCRETE?

Certainly I have no visions of the citizens and city financing the SANTA FE or ROCK ISLAND. Think I've been in the business long enough to know something about how to do this for a song...

...Which according to TUFSU and the doomsday crew, we'll need as we beg for pennies on streetcorners to fund our police and fire.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, its not so much "doomsday" as it is being able to acknowledge and accept the reality that politics at a state and federal level (even in other communities) have a direct impact on our own local needs.  Funding and funding relationships with other parties are very important concerns that must be taken care of regardless what type of streetcar, BRT or whatever system is being proposed.  The sooner we can accept this, the sooner we can plan and push forward in a logical achievable manner.

Thus, all the "doomsday crew" is pointing out is that it will be a more time consuming and difficult challenge to push massive mass transit projects forward if we have to overcome a bad state/federal working relationship.  Personally, I rather make sure good working relationships remain at the local, state and federal level.  If this can happen, things can move forward in five years instead of us having to wait another 20 or 30.

Quote from: stephendare on February 25, 2011, 06:27:12 PM
Establishing a rail system, and a city wide trolley network is a completely different thing from 'bumping our intra city transportation'.

Leave that kind of conflation to TUFSU, please. ;)

I can't personally speak about rail and trolley, but the intra-city issue with JEA can begin to be fixed with a, as Ock put it, "...a careful surgical cutting" of existing routes to eliminate redundancy.  I have offered several ideas on this based upon ACTUAL FIELD KNOWLEDGE and not sitting behind a keyboard proclaiming incorrect truths.  I know the busses that I use daily.  I know that they overlap services in a ridiculous manner.  I have e-mailed JTA about my concerns, and from my limited vantage point, options that could correct them.   Does anyone here realize how many busses circulate through downtown before starting their trip?  I don't either, but it's most of them - look at the JTA signs on Bay, Newnan & Hubbard Sts - there are at least 10-15 busses that pass those stops every loop.  How many times do busses stop nearby a skyway station on the way to Rosa Park? I don't know, but most of them that come in from the southwest.  Look at the JTA signs that are across / right down the street from a skyway station.

My biggest peeve is that of those who complain and bitch about 'the system,' but refuse to actually try and use it.  We're not talking about journeys to the outer edges of civilization, just the typical 'intra-city' access that JTA needs to focus on.

Really no different then it has ever been, yeah we have a blank in Tallahassee, but the FTA is another thing altogether. Remember HSR was very much on the front burner, and the cheerleaders were all in place when Jacksonville got NOTHING from the Tiger Grants, and the Florida East Coast train, arguably the best long distance passenger route in the County, was turned down flat. Obama was in TOTAL control when that happened and I don't see a dimes difference in then and now except that the TEA PARTY faction has gained strength and is totally hostile to public transit.

Just for the sake of argument, what would be the state of things like Streetcar, Commuter Rail or the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL project had we approved the HSR plan? Wouldn't have changed a thing, we wouldn't have gotten the tiger grants locally, and the FEC trains would still be unfunded. What would be a certain disaster is what would have happened had we allowed the HSR to go to bid, built and failed which would have brought down not just our railroad but possibly some huge multi-national corporation like TALGO, or BOMBARDIER. They would be faced with a delima of bad choices, cut their losses and run (dumping it on the taxpayers), bankruptcy protection (with the same net effect), find a loophole and back away as fast as possible - likely to NEVER do business in our country again, or bite the bullet, cut things to the bone and allow the railroad to hobble along hemorrhaging negative cash flow, while nailing the coffin of HSR in our country. 

Maybe I see things this way as a railroader, because since 1971, to get ANYTHING RAIL out of the Federal Government and most states has been like a having a Proctologist pull your teeth. Amtrak has been "dying" for 40 years, as the "progressive conservatives" labeled railroads as "a 19th Century Technology." Randal O'Toole, Heritage Foundation, The Pew Charitable Trust, Reason Foundation, etc... have been launching an insane attack on rail long before Scott became governor, or turned down the Florida project funding.

No I disagree, NOTHING HAS CHANGED, at least since May 1, 1971 not a damn thing has changed for those of us who are veterans of the railroad wars. 

Here is a sampling of what I mean:

QuoteHigh-Speed Rail - A Big-Ticket Item That Drives Deficits

June 11, 2009 - By Diana Furchtgott-Roth

Proponents of high-speed rail have exaggerated its benefits. Transportation jobs can be created through expansion of highways, using private funding from tolls rather than taxpayer dollars. And additional high-speed rail is unlikely to ease traffic congestion, because traffic congestion occurs within cities, rather than outside them. Evidence from Japan and Europe indicates that expansion of rail does not stop increases in road transportation and therefore would not reduce dependence on foreign oil. In fact, the opposite has occurred. Since high speed rail was built, rail has lost market share to cars. 
SOURCE:  Manhattan Institute for Policy Research  - 2009
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/miarticle.htm?id=4798

QuoteAIR TERROR SAVES AMTRAK?

America’s scarcely used passenger rail service (Amtrak had a total of 22.5 million passengers in 2000â€"less traffic than the Charlotte airport had that year) has an uncanny knack for survival. From time to time the profligate son gets spanked by fiscal conservatives, but he can ultimately count on support from a network of mayors, governors, and Congressmen who are determined to see the Amtrak gravy train keep rolling through their districts. While train service brings relatively little economic benefit to the areas it serves, politicians have convinced themselves that the political benefits are immense, according to transportation specialist Ron Utt of the Heritage Foundation. “There are a lot of mayors who think they’d be important if they had high-speed rail service,” he says.
SOURCE: American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
http://www.aei.org/docLib/20030117_amtrak.pdf

QuoteSocialism Is Coming to America

By Cliff Kincaid  |  September 23, 2008

Amtrak remains in many ways not only a typical state-owned corporation, modeled on the now obsolete mid-20th Century European-Socialist template, but also to a large extent modeled on the even more obsolete private-American railroad model.  Plous points out that Amtrak must be tied to government in order to maintain its privileged access to America’s privately owned freight railroads.  If it weren’t for the law that allows Amtrak access passenger trains would be put on a siding for hours while freight trains had priority of passage.  The connection with government also helps the passenger train industry obtain insurance at reasonable rates.  For these reasons, Plous says, “these essential resources cannot be unbundled from Amtrak or from Government.”

He concludes, “a great deal of Amtrak can â€" and should â€" be unbundled, and most of the unbundled components can be successfully relocated in the private sector.

SOURCE: Accuracy in Media Foundation
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/socialism-is-coming-to-america/

QuoteAmtrak's Legacy of Financial Failure

This year Amtrak is celebrating its 25th anniversary. The train system first came under government ownership during the Nixon administration. At the time, the marriage between the railroad and the federal government was called an "experiment" to make money-losing passenger rail service profitable again.

Yet Amtrak continues to rely on public subsidies. Between 1971 and 1981, annual federal appropriations to Amtrak rose from $140 million to $850 million. [5] During the Reagan administration, the railroad received an average annual subsidy of $600 million a year. In the 1990s Amtrak subsidies have been climbing again. In 1995 taxpayer subsidies exceeded $1 billion. While in the hands of the government, Amtrak need not worry about such matters as a bottom line profit and loss statement. Congress has proven time and again that it is willing to lend a financial hand.

There is little evidence that, over its 25 years as a federal enterprise, Amtrak has made progress toward financial self-sufficiency. Indeed, in recent years Amtrak management has been agitating for more than a $1 billion infusion of funds for the purchase of new trains and equipment. These taxpayer subsidies appear to continue because of supposed national benefits of Amtrak service.
SOURCE: Cato Institute - 1996
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-266.html

QuoteTHE WAR ON CARS
by Alan Caruba

Like most Americans, I had always been vaguely aware that the cost of owning a car, buying a new one, and the general use of cars nationwide, had been rising for years. We were told that this was necessary to “clean the air”, “become more energy efficient”, and “increase the use of mass transit...”

...Slowly, I became aware of a virtual war on drivers (and truckers) being orchestrated by the Federal government which, in turn, imposed mandates upon the States...

...What really is happening on our highways and roads? Well, in 1997, the death rate on the nation’s roads fell to a record low. The U.S. Department of Transportation concluded there were 1.6 deaths per 100 million miles traveled. Mind you, despite efforts to get Americans to use trains have totally failed. The future of Amtrak, established in 1970, is very shaky. Since its inception, the number of miles traveled by car has risen by two thirds to more than 2.8 trillion.
SOURCE: AMERICAN POLICY CENTER - 1999 - http://americanpolicy.org/property-rights/the-war-on-cars.html

QuoteAmtrak service wastes taxpayer's money and hurts private companies

I have been very critical of Amtrak service, especially the second train that was added between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. First of all, Amtrak service competes with private intercity transportation services, like charter buses and more importantly the airline industry. Amtrak’s public subsidy places airlines at a competitive disadvantage and there are examples where some airlines have had to cut service.

Secondly, the higher ridership on Amtrak was mostly a result of the Winter Olympics held in Vancouver B.C., so it’s not surprising that more people used the service.

Finally, according to the WSDOT press release, 138,000 trips were taken on the four trains between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. That equals 378 daily trips, or 95 trips per day, per train.

Amtrak loses millions of dollars per year to operate its trains. These loses are subsidized by taxpayers. Spending millions of dollars in public money to carry 378 people between Seattle and Vancouver B.C. is laughable and unnecessary when there are plenty of other travel alternatives.

Amtrak’s public subsidy wastes taxpayer’s money and hurts private companies. If Amtrak wants to continue this service, then users should fully cover their own transportation costs, not taxpayers.
SOURCE: WASHINGTON POLICY CENTER - JAN 2011 -  http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/blog/post/amtrak-service-wastes-taxpayers-money-and-hurts-private-companies

RICK SCOTT, didn't invent this stuff, in fact he is a Johnny-come-lately to the whole "highway-airline monopoly movement," and quite the ammature, I predict he won't be the last either, he is just one more of hundreds.

Those articles?...Sadly, I could have included another 50-100 foundations, institutes and think tanks, and THOUSANDS of pages of anti-rail propaganda.

Since this thread is supposed to be about STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE, you might find it interesting to know that you will no longer find GENERAL MOTORS, FIRESTONE, PHILLIPS 66, STANDARD OIL, GREYHOUND, MACK TRUCKS, YELLOW COACH, all once partners in NATIONAL CITY LINES, or their foundations out slinging mud at streetcars and interurban's.

There are 3 reasons for this:

1. They successfully destroyed the rail transit industry of the early-mid 1900's.
2. They were successfully sued and found guilty of a conspiracy to destroy rail transit.
3. Today, somewhat wiser, you WILL find their names as principal contributors to the ultra-conservative think tanks and foundations that are working to eliminate any residual rail services we have left in this country.

So to all of you that think the sky is falling with Rick Scott, for those of us in the railroad industry those clouds have been swirling about our feet for years.

OCKLAWAHA

The ability to compete for federal funding and overcoming a bad state/federal working relationship has nothing to do with being a railroader. What is your timeline and estimated costs for everything you talk about? How much federal and state funding assistance do you anticipate?

Just an observation Lake, those of us in railroading have been watching the carpet being yanked out from under us for so long we have calloused butts. The point being that after the 200th project goes up in flames, you get the feeling this one is no different. This HSR project is going to change things maybe for all the newbies (most MJ crew and readers) but for us old timers, it's the same old shit, different day. I don't know how long Faye, Mtrain or LPBrennan have been dreaming, praying and fighting for more trains but if any of them read this and respond, I believe they'll have a similar opinion about our future...IE: SAME OLD SHIT DIFFERENT DAY.

Watching the ATLANTA-JAX proposal move forward without and local or regional momentum, might be a tip of the cards from the Obama Administration that says we are still very much on the front burner here in JACKSONVILLE. We are unique because we are on the map of two DIFFERENT high speed rail "companies," and in the vision of a third. Only Chicago will beat us in the number of high speed railroad companies though we'll probably never have as many trains.

As for time line, many of the improvements could start tomorrow, the easier items such as:

Ramping up the bus shelter-ad program
Bus route rationalization and consolidations
Aggressive leasing program for SKYWAY station vendors

This could be taken all the way down to details, such as a "transit fan shop," where transit collectors, rail and bus buffs etc. could buy the typical fan trappings, and have sets of JTA photos, toys, tee shirts, hoodies, posters, and large framed shots and art available at a price.
*http://www.transitmuseumstore.com/drupal/?utm_source=site&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=nytm-home
*http://www.ctagifts.com/d/?utm_source=home&utm_medium=website&utm_campaign=cta-home
*http://www.zazzle.com/san+francisco+muni+gifts

As for streetcar and Skyway, I would set several dates for public meetings but I'd do them in a "rally in the park" format... add music and a few baby kissing politicians. Meetings with the local branch of groups such as National Railway Historical Society, Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, Monorail Society etc. and organize a JACKSONVILLE TRACTION and JACKSONVILLE MONORAIL groups which will help with planning, volunteer restoration, cleaning, mechanics, operations, etc. As you know Lake, this was started in Troy, WI and Baltimore, and IS DONE in Dallas and several other places (Tucson was doing it but I'm not sure today with the new system going in).  If we line up the ducks now, by the time the mobility plan passes review, we could experience immediate changes.

Each group would solicit for donations of labor, talent, materials, from throughout our community. While we would certainly have a vision on a map, we wouldn't be trying to build it all at once, start small and grow into it. As the mobility plan (or other resources) come into play, some of these early methods would shift to standard practices, but I would NOT exclude our volunteer groups. Standard practice could mean modern light rail vehicles or streetcars, monorails, track, signal, wire, upgrades.

This assumes a hybrid of LONG TIME museum practice, a transit academy for young people, and current modern transit system. Building the streetcar line one block at a time, again using as many volunteer's as we can organize. I'd also be working with the National Guard, Sea Bee's, Army Engineers, Army Corps of Railway Engineers, Naval Reserves and Sea Scouts, Boy, Girl, Eagle, scouts etc.


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TUTJjOQRD1I/AAAAAAAAEKM/Vo6xviCksdA/s288/MYtrolleyimage-1.jpg)

How many years and how much cash are we talking? Even building a volunteer led system could take years, when dealing with public ROW, design, public works, FDOT, JEA, JTA, permitting and COJ regulations. What's the time line for your plan? You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date. To be honest, what you describe seems to be at least a decade away from reality (assuming everything went right, start to finish).

FYI, the mobility fee projects are intended to alleviate traffic choke points, not create a mass transit system. If the improvement is not already apart of the mobility plan project list, mobility plan money can't be spent on it. So assuming you want to modify the plan's project priorities, you're going to have to wait at least 5-10 years on that alone or go after another funding method.

I am with Ock on this.  The HSR project was a DOG that would have given rail in general a black eye. A resident of Tampa is not going to drive to the rail station and pay to ride HSR to Orlando when it is less than two hours, by car, door to door from any point between the two cities. 

Also, I don't know about Orlando but Tampa is not the most rail friendly city in the country anyway.  It's my understanding that Hillsborough County voted against a one-cent local sales tax that would have funded several mass transit projects including light rail.  I almost believe that residents of Tampa would not have ridden an establish HSR out of spite.

Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of people in Florida, not just Jacksonville, DON'T WANT RAIL. Be it HSR, light rail, street car or trolley. 

On a note besides Floridian's disdain of rail...

I know the federal grant was supposed to fund HSR but wouldn't it have been better spent to fund intra-city, urban mass transit projects like the streetcars that Ock suggests in this thread?  Wouldn't 2.4 billion been able to establish or improve rail systems in all four major cities in Florida? 

If the feds are going to grant Florida money to improve transportation infrastructure then maybe they should let Floridians decide which type of infrastructure that grant should go towards.

We really need to get away from this idea that the $2.4 billion should be used for other things. Reality is that this is simply not going to happen. The feds are trying to create a national wide HSR network. The $2.4 billion is a part of the funds that have been set aside for this. Florida had a shovel ready project that made it eligible to receive HSR money from that particular federal pot. If we don't have a project, that money will go to a state that does.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2011, 02:55:04 PM
We really need to get away from this idea that the $2.4 billion should be used for other things. Reality is that this is simply not going to happen. The feds are trying to create a national wide HSR network.

Which is an awesome idea but Floridians aren't ready for it so it probably wont start here.  The majority of residents in Florida are uninformed to the benefits of rail if not completely ignorant to it.

A few weeks ago there was an incident on a light rail that made national news.  Correct me if am wrong but I believe it was a shooting in San Francisco?  The incident became a topic of discussion among my team at work and the main question that circled the discussion was "What is light rail?".

No one on my team of eleven people even knew what light rail was except for one person who said "I think they have one of those in D.C.".  It was sad.

We basically have two options with the $2.4 billion:

1. Use it to establish an intercity rail line between Tampa and Orlando, which is phase 1 of a statewide system.

2. Use it to establish intercity rail lines in other states with similar shovel ready projects.

All talk of using it to invest in other modes of transit, ports, sending it back to the treasury or whatever is a waste of time.  All of these are things we should be working on irregardless of if HSR happens or not.  Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2011, 03:45:16 PM
Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

Oh yeah, millions of Floridians like you, me and the rest of the MetroJacksonville faithful :).  But there are also millions of Floridians who either don't care or who are sold by Scott's propaganda that tax payer's are going to end up having to foot the bill for this project.

You are right though.  Scott should have let the private sector bid on this.  It may have been a DOG as it was currently projected but the private sector may have found a way make it work.  Especially if it was their profits that were on the line and not the taxpayer's money.  Keeping taxpayer's from being fiscally responsible for these types of projects is a good step forward in selling Floridians on rail.     

You would be surprised.  The majority of people I'm in contact with in Central Florida (regardless of party affiliation) thinks he's crazy to pass without it at least going to bid to determine its true feasibility first.  You're never going to get a deal on any type of passenger rail system where all you have to provide is the ROW (which happens to already be in place).  That, combined with the fed's $2.4 billion and a chance to lead the US HSR market are the things that make it feasible for the private sector to participate.  As mentioned, in the past, I'm not crazy about the plan that has been developed so far either.  However, I see no problem with having the private sector bid on it.  Like you, I believe any party willing to risk their name and livelyhood on it would find ways to modify it into a workable product.  If they can't, they'd just pass and it wouldn't get built anyway.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 26, 2011, 11:20:07 AM
As for streetcar and Skyway, I would set several dates for public meetings but I'd do them in a "rally in the park" format... add music and a few baby kissing politicians. Meetings with the local branch of groups such as National Railway Historical Society, Railway and Locomotive Historical Society, Monorail Society etc. and organize a JACKSONVILLE TRACTION and JACKSONVILLE MONORAIL groups which will help with planning, volunteer restoration, cleaning, mechanics, operations, etc. As you know Lake, this was started in Troy, WI and Baltimore, and IS DONE in Dallas and several other places (Tucson was doing it but I'm not sure today with the new system going in).  If we line up the ducks now, by the time the mobility plan passes review, we could experience immediate changes.

Each group would solicit for donations of labor, talent, materials, from throughout our community. While we would certainly have a vision on a map, we wouldn't be trying to build it all at once, start small and grow into it. As the mobility plan (or other resources) come into play, some of these early methods would shift to standard practices, but I would NOT exclude our volunteer groups. Standard practice could mean modern light rail vehicles or streetcars, monorails, track, signal, wire, upgrades.

Ock, I have been talking to people in Springfield about organizing an effort to connect San Marco with Springfield by transit.  There are many people living in Springfield sending kids to schools in San Marco (Landon) and vice versa (Darnel Cookman).  There are also a large number of people living in San Marco who work at Shands.  And then even more who used to live in one neighborhood and now the other or work in one and live in the other.  What I'm trying to say is that there are many connections between the two neighborhoods that can be used for mutual benefit.  Hopefully soon we can speak in a unified voice that will gain some positive attention.  Your idea of holding public events is great and one that I am willing to support and participate in.

I thought Lori Boyer's suggestion of linking neighborhood shuttles with the skyway's end points was a great short term (0-5 years) idea for gaining better use out of the skyway, while also tying our urban core districts together.  Doing such will allow for the necessary time (+5 to 20 years) needed to accomplish and complete proposed projects in the LRTP, Mobility Plan and some of Ock's ideas.

Absolutely we should have neighborhood shuttles.  But until the skyway comes across the RR tracks, people won't have much of an incentive in San Marco because the shuttle will get stopped by the train as often as the cars do.  That is what killed it last time they tried the 'trolley' in San Marco.  We need to find a way to provide enough incentives for private developers to create true TODs at Kings Avenue, Lasalle Street and Atlantic Blvd that would pay for the extension of the skyway.  I am beginning to believe that this initiative will not come from any government agency and will have to be citizen led.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2011, 03:45:16 PM
We basically have two options with the $2.4 billion:

1. Use it to establish an intercity rail line between Tampa and Orlando, which is phase 1 of a statewide system.

2. Use it to establish intercity rail lines in other states with similar shovel ready projects.

All talk of using it to invest in other modes of transit, ports, sending it back to the treasury or whatever is a waste of time.  All of these are things we should be working on irregardless of if HSR happens or not.  Btw, judging from the political fallout, there are millions of Floridians who believe Rick Scott is crazy for not allowing this thing to be bid on by the private sector before pulling the plug.

And the Florida taxpayer will pay the same amount either way.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 26, 2011, 05:51:35 PM
Absolutely we should have neighborhood shuttles.  But until the skyway comes across the RR tracks, people won't have much of an incentive in San Marco because the shuttle will get stopped by the train as often as the cars do.  That is what killed it last time they tried the 'trolley' in San Marco.  We need to find a way to provide enough incentives for private developers to create true TODs at Kings Avenue, Lasalle Street and Atlantic Blvd that would pay for the extension of the skyway.  I am beginning to believe that this initiative will not come from any government agency and will have to be citizen led.

I agree, but it will require time (years) to make an extension a reality. In addition to selling the idea of extending the skyway (this is a difficult sell by itself), you've got to acquire land from the private sector (ex. FEC), and deal with the Overland Bridge project. That project alone could easily push a completion date to the later half of this decade.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2011, 11:29:08 AM
How many years and how much cash are we talking? Even building a volunteer led system could take years, when dealing with public ROW, design, public works, FDOT, JEA, JTA, permitting and COJ regulations. What's the time line for your plan? You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date. To be honest, what you describe seems to be at least a decade away from reality (assuming everything went right, start to finish).

All it takes is a LEADER! Mayor, Civic Council, DDA, Chamber... Someone to call and preside over a meeting where we can lay it all out.

I mean, really Lake, this isn't like I just walked in from the tobacco barn and decided to build me one of them thar trolley lines in Jacksonville. Hell it's like Pablo always said, sure there's push involved, but there could never be any deal without some pull too. This project, like Commuter Rail, Beltways, or pogo sticks has got to be wanted before it gets its act together. Since I've been involved with the streetcar project from it's creation for 30 years, my observation is it has NEVER had such a demand, desire, acceptance like it does today.

Public ROW, public works, permitting and COJ regulations, should all be IN HOUSE for a local design-finance-build. As streetcar can be economical enough to be 100% local, there should be no need to involve FDOT beyond any state design regulations.

As for JTA, JEA, JAA, and JPA, all of which could play roles in streetcars, commuter trains, Skyway's or BRT, they are primarily JACKSONVILLE authorities and the official "State Agency," moniker could be played like a drum.

"You can leave out the years it will take to convince the city and JTA to abandon what's been planned to date?"  Is this the same Lakelander that's been posting here for 5+ years or have you been smoking some of TUFSU or FAYE'S blend?  Lake, JTA is ALREADY ON BOARD FOR A STREETCAR, and similarities? Hell you and I drew 99% of their plan! It's already been stated that Mike Blaylock would love for a group like McKinney Avenue Streetcar to step up as the coordinator-designer-builder-operator... And Mike Blaylock has a keen interest in doing a major league railroad and transportation museum around JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL. Since every candidate for mayor and at least half the City Council races are in favor of streetcar, I'd say we have a very good chance of pulling this off... Imagine JACKSONVILLE LEADING the nation in something?

• Jacksonville Commuter Rail - MAKING HISTORY EVERY DAY - Ride the pioneer streamliner "Mark Twain Zephyr" to work, return home on the "Orange Blossom Special," "Sunniland," or "Palmland..." with original equipment!
  Jacksonville Traction Company - Lowest price per mile fixed rail project in the world and making a profit on every run...  Without going into too much detail here, please recall the "wasted heat" plan I explained to MJ... PURE PROFIT.

As you know Lake, there are several creative ways that I explained would cover our O & M and even turn a profit and have money to reinvest. (Yes Mike, Brad and James - give me a call). We have the opportunity to turn our municipally owned railroad right-of-ways, into raging profit centers that finance transit and transit improvements.

As for time? Depends on the new government, but if our guesses are right, we'll have the ability to hit the ground running...and soon. Once the streetcar has an official body behind it, with the blessing of COJ, JTA, NRHS, R&LHS etc. I would expect to see the first run within 5 years, maybe before the end of the new mayors first term.

Why am I so optimistic? Hopefully the threat of an impending national railroad disaster is over, which means the FTA, DOT, FRA and others might actually have sufficiently recovered from their zombie powered delusions to focus on some projects that will serve a real purpose and without involving corporate rats in Fantasyland.

Any other old Vietnam era vets out there? Do you remember the training question that went something like, "What do you do if your cut off from your unit, and find yourself surrounded by 300 enemy soldiers?" Remember that answer? The one you learned - and believed - and lived - under penalty of falling down a flight of stairs in the middle of the night? There is only one correct answer, and maybe that explains my beliefs...

OCKLAWAHA

I hate to ran on your parade but I'm just being realistic.  Nothing happens overnight.  You should know, you've been advocating for streetcars in Jax for +30 years now and we're still not there yet.  While we've made considerable progress in the last five years in educating our community on the benefits of mass transit, its still been five years.  It will most likely be another five before any real dirt turns for a streetcar line in Jax.  Even with a leader, it still takes a little time to raise capital, deal with ROW/environment/community issues, design, permit and construct.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 26, 2011, 09:42:01 PM
I hate to ran on your parade but I'm just being realistic.  Nothing happens overnight.  You should know, you've been advocating for streetcars in Jax for +30 years now and we're still not there yet.  While we've made considerable progress in the last five years in educating our community on the benefits of mass transit, its still been five years.  It will most likely be another five before any real dirt turns for a streetcar line in Jax.  Even with a leader, it still takes a little time to raise capital, deal with ROW/environment/community issues, design, permit and construct.

Uh? And your point is?

Trust me Lake, your streetcar isn't going up Oak Street in Riverside because DOT decided to fund or not fund a bogus HSR project between Orlando's remote Airport - A convention center - Amusement park - The middle of nowhere - Lakeland - and a city bus stop in Tampa...

We'll get the streetcar, sooner or later, by and by, by hook or crook, if I'm dead or alive, it will happen... So go ahead and rain my friend, I'm Sanforized.

I'm just a bit surprised that you allowed Governor Scott to bitch slap the optimism out of you...

OCKLAWAHA

I've always been a realist and I'm being a realist right now.  Saying developing a streetcar (especially a mobility plan related project) or expanding the skyway will take time has nothing to do with HSR.  That's a completely different project and funding mechanism.  That streetcar down Oak Street is going to take time to develop because that's how the funding structure is been established.  I know a little more about how its being set up so I'm trying to make sure things being said about it are realistic.

Don't believe I said I thought it would happen overnight Lake, just that it would happen, and it will. What I am saying is yes, while you know more about the inner workings of the Mobility Plan, I've probably laid more track... Thus we make a hell of a team. I'm also saying not to get too hung up on it being funded either through the traditional ways, or through the Mobility Plan, there are other ways to skin this kitty if we need to shift gears. That's where an operating museum would/could come into play, where a private venture using some of the alternate methods of producing income I've explained or a hybrid public-private partnership such as Detroit recently pulled off... (Oh and for anyone that didn't know, I'm told they now have a big lump of cash from the federal government) There is also the plain old NON-PROFIT citizen owned utility-transit operation.

All I'm holding off for right now is to see who is seated in our new government... Then it's time to raise the pole and knock down some persimmons. I trust your with me.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I am with you.  And others are, too.  Keep it up!  It really doesn't matter how long it takes.  What matters is that we keep applying pressure and looking for ways to make it happen.  Sooner or later something will shake out.

Imagine if we could get anywhere near the public support for something like this that we had for getting the Jaguars?

I believe that people don't stay in pessimist mode forever.  Right now the focus is on not raising taxes, shrinking the government, etc.  And those things need to happen.  But it won't be long before the situation turns and the mindset shifts to improving the city.

I heard a quote not too long ago from Wayne Gretzky about not skating to where the puck is, but skating to where the puck is going to be.  If we focus our planning on where we are now (i.e. the current political situation) then we are skating to where the puck is.  But if we focus on where the city will be 3 to 5 years from now, we will meet the puck and slap that thing right into the net.

As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

Lake how much would it take to build the streetcar line from 5 points to the Landing?

The Mobility Plan has $50 million set aside for a line between Park & King and Newnan/Bay Street in the initial 10-year CIE plan.  I agree with Ock that a no-frills streetcar line can be built for half of that cost but the plan hasn't been officially approved and enacted yet (As Scott as proven with HSR, don't count your chickens before they hatch).  Once it is, we still have to hope that the economy recovers to the point that enough development happens within that particular mobility zone to generate the estimates.  So in short, with our economic conditions, we'll be lucky if that zone generates $25 million by 2015/16, much less $50 million by 2020/21.  

Btw, in the event a project is constructed for less than the estimated cost, the money saved would go to other mobility plan specified projects within that particular mobility zone.  I don't have the documents in front of me but I believe commuter rail down the CSX A line would most likely be next up in that zone.  Now, what happens to Sunrail has direct bearing on the type of service frequency, costs and potential funding mechanisms involved with that particular corridor.

Folks...as Lake has noted, it is important to keep this in mind that no mobility plan projects get built until development ramps back up....and while Gov. Scott seems to be very pro-development, giving up 20,000+ jobs sure isn't going to get houses built faster.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 26, 2011, 05:02:11 PM
Ock, I have been talking to people in Springfield about organizing an effort to connect San Marco with Springfield by transit.  There are many people living in Springfield sending kids to schools in San Marco (Landon) and vice versa (Darnel Cookman).  There are also a large number of people living in San Marco who work at Shands.  And then even more who used to live in one neighborhood and now the other or work in one and live in the other.  What I'm trying to say is that there are many connections between the two neighborhoods that can be used for mutual benefit.  Hopefully soon we can speak in a unified voice that will gain some positive attention.  Your idea of holding public events is great and one that I am willing to support and participate in.

I agree, and I'll be up in town tomorrow and Friday (at least) it would be nice to get together and discuss possible group strategy.

I'm in and out today, but I'll try and respond ASAP, this afternoon? evening? ??

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 08:16:44 AM
Folks...as Lake has noted, it is important to keep this in mind that no mobility plan projects get built until development ramps back up....and while Gov. Scott seems to be very pro-development, giving up 20,000+ jobs sure isn't going to get houses built faster.

You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

By the same token you don't have to have new mobility plan projects in order to make Jacksonville more pedestrian and bicycle friendly.  For example, a bike sharing program could be implemented without any new transportation facilities.

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 27, 2011, 07:42:52 AM
Lake how much would it take to build the streetcar line from 5 points to the Landing?

Keep in mind Jeffrey that rail system pricing INCLUDES trolley, wires, track, stations, etc... the whole operational railroad - turn key. For those that wonder WTF? Bus Rapid Transit, buses, naticul, aviation, are priced by the pieces. Rail pricing by component is rare, but would be something like...

Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

Track is often built for under $4 million a mile, in fact THAT price would include some new grading and ground work. Track on an existing roadbed, such as from Beaver Street East, along the old Springfield Rail Yard to 21st then angling over to Gateway, COULD BE DONE for around $2.5 million a mile. $900,000 for the bridge over
Long Branch Creek.

Overhead wire for a STREETCAR using trolley pole is light and cheap, compared to constant tension cantenary on a heavier built line, or a line using pantograph. The only savings found on a pantograph type overhead is the spacing of the poles is greater, meaning fewer can be used, otherwise TROLLEY POLE wins. Even the most expensive system can be built for $2 million a mile, but using a trolley pole that could be brought down by more then 3/4, +/-.

OCKLAWAHA

best guess bottom line , 5 points to the landing  Ock?

Quote from: Dashing Dan on February 27, 2011, 10:16:38 AM
You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

Dan, nice conservative sounding idea, but:

ridership on bus routes, even BRT, is a fraction of rail
Cities with massive Bus improvements INCLUDING BRT- HAVE NOT experienced corresponding economic development. Development, especially large projects follows the rail.

JEFFREY Correct, starter line would run from NEWNAN/BAY down NEWNAN to INDEPENDENCE to WATER to PARK to 5-POINTS or PARK AND KING.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2011, 06:45:23 AM
As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

And even longer if we don't push for it today.  Or it could happen sooner.

Quote from: JeffreyS on February 27, 2011, 10:37:05 AM
best guess bottom line , 5 points to the landing  Ock?

While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.

or quicker if you utilize all potential funding avenues.

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 11:05:29 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2011, 06:45:23 AM
As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

And even longer if we don't push for it today.  Or it could happen sooner.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2011, 10:40:32 AM

Quote from: Dashing Dan on February 27, 2011, 10:16:38 AM
You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

Dan, nice conservative sounding idea, but:

ridership on bus routes, even BRT, is a fraction of rail
Cities with massive Bus improvements INCLUDING BRT- HAVE NOT experienced corresponding economic development. Development, especially large projects follows the rail.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not advocating anything that would forestall the kinds of investments in rail and transit that we all seem to want. I'm only suggesting that we start setting the table while we wait for dinner to arrive.  I love rail - I just want it to work.

Also, what's "conservative sounding" about being pragmatic?

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 11:06:29 AM
While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.

The estimate is $36 million between 5 Points and DT. The mobility plan would pay for this because it's an alternative to widening Park or Riverside Avenues. Building public support for something to the stadium is separate issue that will require a different funding mechanism. Try focusing on the DT TCEA. It could probably fund an extension itself. Right now, it's paying for streetscapes and being raided for needs outside of DT.

 Dashing Dan, we're on the same page. I keep bringing up costs, timelines and funding mechanisms for a reason. Dreaming is one thing. However, in reality you'll need both short (0-5yrs) and long term solutions.

Stephen, I'll have to get back with you on that one. I don't have the info in front of me right now.

Quote from: stephendare on February 27, 2011, 11:26:16 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on February 27, 2011, 11:21:01 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 11:06:29 AM
While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.

The estimate is $36 million between 5 Points and DT. The mobility plan would pay for this because it's an alternative to widening Park or Riverside Avenues. Building public support for something to the stadium is separate issue that will require a different funding mechanism. Try focusing on the DT TCEA. It could probably fund an extension itself. Right now, it's paying for streetscapes and being raided for needs outside of DT.

How much would widening Riverside Avenue cost?

a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

ok wait....so you'd only purchase 2 cars...that's not gonna cut it.

Assuming it takes 40 minutes round trip from Riverside tgo downtown (a fair assumption), the best you could do is 20 minute headways....and what happens when one car needs to be serviced?

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 06:59:29 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

ok wait....so you'd only purchase 2 cars...that's not gonna cut it.

Assuming it takes 40 minutes round trip from Riverside tgo downtown (a fair assumption), the best you could do is 20 minute headway's....and what happens when one car needs to be serviced?

Holy shit TU, have you gone completely brain dead on us? Jeffrey asked about costs and I threw some ball park figures at him, including the example of the two safety cars in Australia. Nowhere did I say we'd build a system with just two cars... especially a transit-operating museum hybrid, where more equipment elevates the status as transit but also as a working museum.

So how "could we" build a 2 car system? Yeah, probably, and it would probably work just fine as long as we're talking the length of Water Street and Independent Drive. A VERY ELEMENTARY starter line just to expose the population to streetcars again (after a 75 year absence). These two cars would be EXCELLENT candidates for such a thing as they'd come to us with complete parts and back-up support (from the Australian System they were retired from), and they'll tweak them to order for things like AC, ADA, etc. in their shops before shipping them.

I would suggest for something the length of what we at MJ have proposed and what Lakelander has in the Mobility Plan, we're realistically looking at 8-12 cars. Since the "guts" of the many varieties of cars are similar or the same, we would get ahead of Tampa with an interesting spectrum of cars... an operation more like Baltimore OR Dallas Heritage Lines, then it would be Tampa or Little Rocks.

Smile TU, SOMEBODY has to give you a hard time.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 07:32:43 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

maybe I misunderstood....Ennis said that streetcar is in the Mobility Plan insted of widening Riverside Ave or Park Street...then Stephen asked how much the widening would cost.

The assumption for streetcar is that it runs on the existing street...so no ROW would not be needed

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2011, 07:47:04 PM
Smile TU, SOMEBODY has to give you a hard time. [/b]
OCKLAWAHA

why...because ChriswUF is MIA?

:)

Arguing over specifics at this point is counterproductive IMO. You all need to start coming together on campaigning for rail/public transportation in general. The general consensus here seems to think that public transit is only for poor people (and "them blacks"), so therefor they dont wanna spend any money or time on it because they think its some kind of charity case. You've absolutely gotta start opening people's minds, getting them educated & off of these bullshit notions. Even though this city (and country in general) has a rich history of rail & being kings of public transportation, it might as well been a thousand years ago as far as these people are concerned.

Now, I dont know exactly how you do that, but that it just needs to be done, because most folks here are still under the assumption that this is just how a city is supposed to be & a lot still have boners for their beloved automobiles. You might get a chance if oil prices continue to climb & people are freaking out over how to get from A to B. While they're yelling "drill baby drill", you might wanna have a solid transit solution, committee & campaign ready to go to present them with another alternative that is not only cleaner & more efficient, but negligible in cost.

Start with rallying people in the core because those are gonna be the people who benefit the most & who have also probably been around enough to know what a good transit system can do for a city.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 08:34:44 PM

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 07:32:43 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

maybe I misunderstood....Ennis said that streetcar is in the Mobility Plan insted of widening Riverside Ave or Park Street...then Stephen asked how much the widening would cost.

The assumption for streetcar is that it runs on the existing street...so no ROW would not be needed

No you didn't misunderstand.  You are correct.  A streetcar would run in existing ROW.  The alternative would be to widen either Park or Riverside Ave.  Doing such would mean purchasing ROW and demolishing historic structures and areas like Five Points, to create the room necessary for increased roadway capacity.

In short, there's no need for a public summit to convince suburbanites of putting a streetcar in Riverside, since tax money would not be required for its construction.  This is a specific environment where mass transit is the logical and affordable answer and has already been recognized by JTA, the TPO and the city as a future congestion reliever in this certain area.

Quote from: peestandingup on February 27, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
Start with rallying people in the core because those are gonna be the people who benefit the most & who have also probably been around enough to know what a good transit system can do for a city.

I would suggest to anyone trying to put some type of advocacy group together to get a better understanding of what has already been done to pave the way for implementation of reliable mass transit in the urban core.  Start by working within the system.  There are projects already planned and a couple that already have funding mechanisms set up for them.  These include BRT, the Riverside/DT Streetcar line and the S-Line through the Northside.  We don't need a public summit for these, the public has already spoken in the form of the neighborhood visioning plans that have already been adopted by COJ.  We just need to see them through and make sure they are designed and implemented to be as reliable and cost efficient as possible. Try rallying around and using them as demonstration projects to the public at large to illustrate the effectiveness of mass transit.

As for a mass transit connection to the sports district, I would suggest trying to work with the DT TCEA.  If it can be modified, it should generate more than enough funds to connect something to the sports district.  Again, we don't need to convince suburbanites of this, unless the plan is to ask them to fund it. 

Well you know what they say about AMTRAK and RAIL supporters? We have to hang together or the highway lobby will hang us individually.

However...

I think am at a new stage in my life, "Old railroaders never die, we just lose track..."

OCKLAWAHA

DT TCEA.??

QuoteTransportation Concurrency Exception Area: Downtown was recently designated as a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA) to promote mixed-use development tied into mass transit options to mitigate the impacts of development on the downtown and surrounding roadway system.

http://www3.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville-Economic-Development-Commission/Downtown-Development/TCEA.aspx

Quote from: peestandingup on February 27, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
The general consensus here seems to think that public transit is only for poor people (and "them blacks"), so therefor they dont wanna spend any money or time on it because they think its some kind of charity case. You've absolutely gotta start opening people's minds, getting them educated & off of these bullshit notions. Even though this city (and country in general) has a rich history of rail & being kings of public transportation, it might as well been a thousand years ago as far as these people are concerned.

Now, I dont know exactly how you do that, but that it just needs to be done, because most folks here are still under the assumption that this is just how a city is supposed to be & a lot still have boners for their beloved automobiles.

JTA? ARE YOU READING THIS? ...HERE'S MY TAKE.

You are right in many ways my friend, Jacksonville's good citizens as a whole wouldn't know good mass transit if they were run over by the bus! Worse, I think many of our COWFORD COWBOY leadership is completely clueless, maybe even worse off then the general population who for the most part seem to have seen streetcars in old reruns of "Nash Bridges" on the tube.

JTA is doing a TERRIBLE JOB of getting out and meeting the community...

Send those buses out for events all over town, get them to blood bank drives, parade of homes, campuses, fairs, shows, conventions and events.  Bus shows up and if there is a way to get it involved as a shuttle, DO IT. Car shows? Monster Trucks? Baseball? Beaches? BE THERE! Elementary schools through high schools that have a truck day event should be counting on JTA being a primary display, hell take the kids and parents around the neighborhood, and leave them with the a litter bag filled with candy, route map, cardstock buses and streetcars to build, schedules, and those dynamite little bus flashlights.


Get some REAL PUBLIC RELATIONS AND MARKETING going in the City and Transit System. Create transit events, and join in others to make JTA a community player.

"EXPOSE YOURSELF TO TRANSIT..." National No Pants Transit Day (GOING INTO IT'S 11TH YEAR) could become just another fun festival in town... and it WOULD star JTA. TV would carry it all over the state and people watching would laugh and think what a crazy and fun bunch, hardly the stuff Welfare and Food Stamps are cut from. People that would take off their pants (no nudity) to ride a bus are MUCH MORE LIKELY to be college and university age students and their friends, the very crowd who might not otherwise EVER use transit.

Get those buses together with the regional malls, town centers and large shopping complexes. No, we're not talking about a bus that runs to the mall, how about A BUS THAT RUNS IN THE MALL? Everyone complains about Town Center being a nightmare for pedestrians, SO STRING IT TOGETHER... Run from UNF through the entire curbside plaza to Costco or Best Western Bay Meadows. Get those INDY-YUPPIES on the buses free or at a deep discount like a flat .25 cents.  When you get Mr. and Mrs. Yup-Yup to ride from Publix to the Apple Store, and if you make it enjoyable and convenient, they'll be many times more likely to ride again, where it REALLY counts, taking one more car off the road as "CHOICE RIDERS."

Get JTA involved with large companies, such as the Southbank Corporations that operate extensive van pools, create "subscription bus services," with major employers and schools. Offer substantial breaks for Companies that agree to XX people using transit daily, allow them to build or expand without adding parking, offer tax incentives, operate the subscription schedules like a traditional door to door jitney. EXPOSE PEOPLE TO TRANSIT!

Coordinate services from St. Augustine, Green Cove Springs, Middleburg, Starke, Macclenny, Callahan, Kings Bay/Kingsland, Fernandina Beach... Even if it's just one or two runs in the morning and afternoon, make those the most desirable, comfortable, amenity filled hours of the day - but only aboard the bus! Work with the City to allow access to Downtown by St. Augustine, Fernandina and Clay Transit. Use a reciprocal agreement with the other regional agencies. For example the 5:30a, and 7:30a inbound runs from DOWNTOWN St. Augustine would use regular JTA coaches and drivers, and the 6:30a and 8:30a inbound would use St. Augustine SUNSHINE BUS, all the way into DOWNTOWN Jacksonville. EXPOSE JAX TO SUNSHINE BUS AND ST. AUGUSTINE TO JTA! In the evening rush, at those heavy stops on Bay Street, there should be 5-6 DIFFERENT buses from as many agencies, even though operation is coordinated and fixed in advance, it gives the illusion of a large choice of commuter accommodations.

Make standard buses, on route segments that are proposed for BRT, START ACTING LIKE BRT. Spiff up the schedules, add runs, betterment of stops, frequent headway's in rush periods. Break the mold - make the EXPRESS FLYER buses into "motor coach cruisers."  How about wifi, coffee/OJ and the morning paper, danish, 110 volt outlets, tables, reading lights, tinted glass, adjustable curtains and/or blinds,  individual air, overhead bins, office center on board, leather seats, restroom equipped?

There's a lot more, but this is enough to get the wheels turning. GO FORTH AND EXPOSE YOURSELF TO TRANSIT.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2011, 07:32:43 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 27, 2011, 06:57:26 PM
a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

Doug, here is a little map that I think shows the optium options for Streetcar North. Something I noted in your comment that we need to make clear to everyone. STREETCARS DON'T NEED STREETS! For all practical purposes they are a type of train, and can operate on regular railroad type track, though because of their light construction, they cannot operate on active freight track without a physical or temporal lockout ability for safety.

In round ONE of the streetcar war, back in 1980, the city rejected the streetcar and went with the Skyway because according to their study...

"streetcars are old, slow, little, AND MUST OPERATE IN THE STREETS AND COMPETE WITH AUTOMOBILES!" And people wonder why I think so highly of JTA'S "experts?"

Let's bust the myths:

Streetcars are about as old as tomorrows product, they can be bought off the shelf or special ordered in variations that more closely resemble space vessels then traditional trolleys. However traditional bodies on modern streetcars are great for atmosphere and cut the cost in half!

Slow? The Cincinnati and Lake Erie Railway, lightweight interurban streetcars, beat an airplane in a 1930's race at just under 100 mph, later another of their cars broke the 100 mark at Columbus Grove Oh... Let's see one of JTA'S buses or the Skyway match that.

Little? How's 8 feet wide and 120 feet long with an articulated multi-part body? Somewhere around 3x the seating capacity of the largest buses...oh yeah, and if we need more seats, we CAN couple another car and form a train, with a single operator, for as many seats as we want.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 27, 2011, 11:39:54 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on February 27, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
The general consensus here seems to think that public transit is only for poor people (and "them blacks"), so therefor they dont wanna spend any money or time on it because they think its some kind of charity case. You've absolutely gotta start opening people's minds, getting them educated & off of these bullshit notions. Even though this city (and country in general) has a rich history of rail & being kings of public transportation, it might as well been a thousand years ago as far as these people are concerned.

Now, I dont know exactly how you do that, but that it just needs to be done, because most folks here are still under the assumption that this is just how a city is supposed to be & a lot still have boners for their beloved automobiles.

JTA? ARE YOU READING THIS? ...HERE'S MY TAKE.

You are right in many ways my friend, Jacksonville's good citizens as a whole wouldn't know good mass transit if they were run over by the bus! Worse, I think many of our COWFORD COWBOY leadership is completely clueless, maybe even worse off then the general population who for the most part seem to have seen streetcars in old reruns of "Nash Bridges" on the tube.

JTA is doing a TERRIBLE JOB of getting out and meeting the community...

Send those buses out for events all over town, get them to blood bank drives, parade of homes, campuses, fairs, shows, conventions and events.  Bus shows up and if there is a way to get it involved as a shuttle, DO IT. Car shows? Monster Trucks? Baseball? Beaches? BE THERE! Elementary schools through high schools that have a truck day event should be counting on JTA being a primary display, hell take the kids and parents around the neighborhood, and leave them with the a litter bag filled with candy, route map, cardstock buses and streetcars to build, schedules, and those dynamite little bus flashlights.

If they are reading it, I doubt they care. I think they clearly know the deal, but I also think there are bigger forces at work here. Like I said, they've made public transit so bad that the only people who actually use it are those who are less fortunate & have no other choice, which in turn gives it a bum rap. The forces & influence of big oil/big auto are immense. They've basically forced everyone into the auto racket under the pretense that these things give us "freedom" & "individuality", when in reality its the exact opposite.

Its an old game they've been playing across the country for decades now, all the way back to National City Lines. I honestly think a lot of people just dont realize it & have just swallowed whatever the system has been feeding them. Which is why the best thing is to wake people us & make them realize exactly what's going on here.

This should be required viewing for anyone in this country over the age of 16: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=68X2MWAE