High Speed Rail is Dead, Time for STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE

[Ocklawaha]

I hate to ran on your parade but I'm just being realistic.  Nothing happens overnight.  You should know, you've been advocating for streetcars in Jax for +30 years now and we're still not there yet.  While we've made considerable progress in the last five years in educating our community on the benefits of mass transit, its still been five years.  It will most likely be another five before any real dirt turns for a streetcar line in Jax.  Even with a leader, it still takes a little time to raise capital, deal with ROW/environment/community issues, design, permit and construct.

Uh? And your point is?

Trust me Lake, your streetcar isn't going up Oak Street in Riverside because DOT decided to fund or not fund a bogus HSR project between Orlando's remote Airport - A convention center - Amusement park - The middle of nowhere - Lakeland - and a city bus stop in Tampa...

We'll get the streetcar, sooner or later, by and by, by hook or crook, if I'm dead or alive, it will happen... So go ahead and rain my friend, I'm Sanforized.

I'm just a bit surprised that you allowed Governor Scott to bitch slap the optimism out of you...

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I've always been a realist and I'm being a realist right now.  Saying developing a streetcar (especially a mobility plan related project) or expanding the skyway will take time has nothing to do with HSR.  That's a completely different project and funding mechanism.  That streetcar down Oak Street is going to take time to develop because that's how the funding structure is been established.  I know a little more about how its being set up so I'm trying to make sure things being said about it are realistic.

[Ocklawaha]

Don't believe I said I thought it would happen overnight Lake, just that it would happen, and it will. What I am saying is yes, while you know more about the inner workings of the Mobility Plan, I've probably laid more track... Thus we make a hell of a team. I'm also saying not to get too hung up on it being funded either through the traditional ways, or through the Mobility Plan, there are other ways to skin this kitty if we need to shift gears. That's where an operating museum would/could come into play, where a private venture using some of the alternate methods of producing income I've explained or a hybrid public-private partnership such as Detroit recently pulled off... (Oh and for anyone that didn't know, I'm told they now have a big lump of cash from the federal government) There is also the plain old NON-PROFIT citizen owned utility-transit operation.

All I'm holding off for right now is to see who is seated in our new government... Then it's time to raise the pole and knock down some persimmons. I trust your with me.

OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

Ock, I am with you.  And others are, too.  Keep it up!  It really doesn't matter how long it takes.  What matters is that we keep applying pressure and looking for ways to make it happen.  Sooner or later something will shake out.

Imagine if we could get anywhere near the public support for something like this that we had for getting the Jaguars?

I believe that people don't stay in pessimist mode forever.  Right now the focus is on not raising taxes, shrinking the government, etc.  And those things need to happen.  But it won't be long before the situation turns and the mindset shifts to improving the city.

I heard a quote not too long ago from Wayne Gretzky about not skating to where the puck is, but skating to where the puck is going to be.  If we focus our planning on where we are now (i.e. the current political situation) then we are skating to where the puck is.  But if we focus on where the city will be 3 to 5 years from now, we will meet the puck and slap that thing right into the net.

[thelakelander]

As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

[JeffreyS]

Lake how much would it take to build the streetcar line from 5 points to the Landing?

[thelakelander]

The Mobility Plan has $50 million set aside for a line between Park & King and Newnan/Bay Street in the initial 10-year CIE plan.  I agree with Ock that a no-frills streetcar line can be built for half of that cost but the plan hasn't been officially approved and enacted yet (As Scott as proven with HSR, don't count your chickens before they hatch).  Once it is, we still have to hope that the economy recovers to the point that enough development happens within that particular mobility zone to generate the estimates.  So in short, with our economic conditions, we'll be lucky if that zone generates $25 million by 2015/16, much less $50 million by 2020/21.  

Btw, in the event a project is constructed for less than the estimated cost, the money saved would go to other mobility plan specified projects within that particular mobility zone.  I don't have the documents in front of me but I believe commuter rail down the CSX A line would most likely be next up in that zone.  Now, what happens to Sunrail has direct bearing on the type of service frequency, costs and potential funding mechanisms involved with that particular corridor.

[tufsu1]

Folks...as Lake has noted, it is important to keep this in mind that no mobility plan projects get built until development ramps back up....and while Gov. Scott seems to be very pro-development, giving up 20,000+ jobs sure isn't going to get houses built faster.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, I have been talking to people in Springfield about organizing an effort to connect San Marco with Springfield by transit.  There are many people living in Springfield sending kids to schools in San Marco (Landon) and vice versa (Darnel Cookman).  There are also a large number of people living in San Marco who work at Shands.  And then even more who used to live in one neighborhood and now the other or work in one and live in the other.  What I'm trying to say is that there are many connections between the two neighborhoods that can be used for mutual benefit.  Hopefully soon we can speak in a unified voice that will gain some positive attention.  Your idea of holding public events is great and one that I am willing to support and participate in.

I agree, and I'll be up in town tomorrow and Friday (at least) it would be nice to get together and discuss possible group strategy.

I'm in and out today, but I'll try and respond ASAP, this afternoon? evening? ??

OCKLAWAHA

[Dashing Dan]

Folks...as Lake has noted, it is important to keep this in mind that no mobility plan projects get built until development ramps back up....and while Gov. Scott seems to be very pro-development, giving up 20,000+ jobs sure isn't going to get houses built faster.

You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

By the same token you don't have to have new mobility plan projects in order to make Jacksonville more pedestrian and bicycle friendly.  For example, a bike sharing program could be implemented without any new transportation facilities.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake how much would it take to build the streetcar line from 5 points to the Landing?

Keep in mind Jeffrey that rail system pricing INCLUDES trolley, wires, track, stations, etc... the whole operational railroad - turn key. For those that wonder WTF? Bus Rapid Transit, buses, naticul, aviation, are priced by the pieces. Rail pricing by component is rare, but would be something like...

Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

Track is often built for under $4 million a mile, in fact THAT price would include some new grading and ground work. Track on an existing roadbed, such as from Beaver Street East, along the old Springfield Rail Yard to 21st then angling over to Gateway, COULD BE DONE for around $2.5 million a mile. $900,000 for the bridge over
Long Branch Creek.

Overhead wire for a STREETCAR using trolley pole is light and cheap, compared to constant tension cantenary on a heavier built line, or a line using pantograph. The only savings found on a pantograph type overhead is the spacing of the poles is greater, meaning fewer can be used, otherwise TROLLEY POLE wins. Even the most expensive system can be built for $2 million a mile, but using a trolley pole that could be brought down by more then 3/4, +/-.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

best guess bottom line , 5 points to the landing  Ock?

[Ocklawaha]

You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

Dan, nice conservative sounding idea, but:

ridership on bus routes, even BRT, is a fraction of rail
Cities with massive Bus improvements INCLUDING BRT- HAVE NOT experienced corresponding economic development. Development, especially large projects follows the rail.

JEFFREY Correct, starter line would run from NEWNAN/BAY down NEWNAN to INDEPENDENCE to WATER to PARK to 5-POINTS or PARK AND KING.



OCKLAWAHA

[dougskiles]

As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

And even longer if we don't push for it today.  Or it could happen sooner.

[dougskiles]

best guess bottom line , 5 points to the landing  Ock?

While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.