High Speed Rail is Dead, Time for STREETCAR JACKSONVILLE

[thelakelander]

or quicker if you utilize all potential funding avenues.

As long as everyone recognizes that we maybe looking at 10 to 20 years to establish anything substantial, then we're on the same page.

And even longer if we don't push for it today.  Or it could happen sooner.

[Dashing Dan]

You don't have to build anything new to get more people onto transit.  The ideas I'm most interested in involve changing existing bus operations (to make better use of the skyway and possibly to include new "trolley" routes); and policies to promote better access to existing transit facilities (like complete streets).  More effective marketing, using social media, might also help.

Dan, nice conservative sounding idea, but:

ridership on bus routes, even BRT, is a fraction of rail
Cities with massive Bus improvements INCLUDING BRT- HAVE NOT experienced corresponding economic development. Development, especially large projects follows the rail.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not advocating anything that would forestall the kinds of investments in rail and transit that we all seem to want. I'm only suggesting that we start setting the table while we wait for dinner to arrive.  I love rail - I just want it to work.

Also, what's "conservative sounding" about being pragmatic?

[thelakelander]

While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.

The estimate is $36 million between 5 Points and DT. The mobility plan would pay for this because it's an alternative to widening Park or Riverside Avenues. Building public support for something to the stadium is separate issue that will require a different funding mechanism. Try focusing on the DT TCEA. It could probably fund an extension itself. Right now, it's paying for streetscapes and being raided for needs outside of DT.

[thelakelander]

 Dashing Dan, we're on the same page. I keep bringing up costs, timelines and funding mechanisms for a reason. Dreaming is one thing. However, in reality you'll need both short (0-5yrs) and long term solutions.

[thelakelander]

Stephen, I'll have to get back with you on that one. I don't have the info in front of me right now.

[tufsu1]

While this may make more sense, I think there would be more public support for getting some kind of transit to the sports complex first.

The estimate is $36 million between 5 Points and DT. The mobility plan would pay for this because it's an alternative to widening Park or Riverside Avenues. Building public support for something to the stadium is separate issue that will require a different funding mechanism. Try focusing on the DT TCEA. It could probably fund an extension itself. Right now, it's paying for streetscapes and being raided for needs outside of DT.

How much would widening Riverside Avenue cost?

a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

[tufsu1]

Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

ok wait....so you'd only purchase 2 cars...that's not gonna cut it.

Assuming it takes 40 minutes round trip from Riverside tgo downtown (a fair assumption), the best you could do is 20 minute headways....and what happens when one car needs to be serviced?

[dougskiles]

a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

[Ocklawaha]

Heritage Streetcar - 2 VINTAGE cars available in Australia, rebuilt, ADA compliant, beautiful "other century" craftsmanship, DELIVERED to JAXPORT for under $500,000 - about 250,000 EACH.

ok wait....so you'd only purchase 2 cars...that's not gonna cut it.

Assuming it takes 40 minutes round trip from Riverside tgo downtown (a fair assumption), the best you could do is 20 minute headway's....and what happens when one car needs to be serviced?

Holy shit TU, have you gone completely brain dead on us? Jeffrey asked about costs and I threw some ball park figures at him, including the example of the two safety cars in Australia. Nowhere did I say we'd build a system with just two cars... especially a transit-operating museum hybrid, where more equipment elevates the status as transit but also as a working museum.

So how "could we" build a 2 car system? Yeah, probably, and it would probably work just fine as long as we're talking the length of Water Street and Independent Drive. A VERY ELEMENTARY starter line just to expose the population to streetcars again (after a 75 year absence). These two cars would be EXCELLENT candidates for such a thing as they'd come to us with complete parts and back-up support (from the Australian System they were retired from), and they'll tweak them to order for things like AC, ADA, etc. in their shops before shipping them.

I would suggest for something the length of what we at MJ have proposed and what Lakelander has in the Mobility Plan, we're realistically looking at 8-12 cars. Since the "guts" of the many varieties of cars are similar or the same, we would get ahead of Tampa with an interesting spectrum of cars... an operation more like Baltimore OR Dallas Heritage Lines, then it would be Tampa or Little Rocks.

Smile TU, SOMEBODY has to give you a hard time.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

maybe I misunderstood....Ennis said that streetcar is in the Mobility Plan insted of widening Riverside Ave or Park Street...then Stephen asked how much the widening would cost.

The assumption for streetcar is that it runs on the existing street...so no ROW would not be needed

[tufsu1]

Smile TU, SOMEBODY has to give you a hard time. [/b]
OCKLAWAHA

why...because ChriswUF is MIA?

[peestandingup]

Arguing over specifics at this point is counterproductive IMO. You all need to start coming together on campaigning for rail/public transportation in general. The general consensus here seems to think that public transit is only for poor people (and "them blacks"), so therefor they dont wanna spend any money or time on it because they think its some kind of charity case. You've absolutely gotta start opening people's minds, getting them educated & off of these bullshit notions. Even though this city (and country in general) has a rich history of rail & being kings of public transportation, it might as well been a thousand years ago as far as these people are concerned.

Now, I dont know exactly how you do that, but that it just needs to be done, because most folks here are still under the assumption that this is just how a city is supposed to be & a lot still have boners for their beloved automobiles. You might get a chance if oil prices continue to climb & people are freaking out over how to get from A to B. While they're yelling "drill baby drill", you might wanna have a solid transit solution, committee & campaign ready to go to present them with another alternative that is not only cleaner & more efficient, but negligible in cost.

Start with rallying people in the core because those are gonna be the people who benefit the most & who have also probably been around enough to know what a good transit system can do for a city.

[thelakelander]

a whole bunch...because Riverside Ave (the part that didn't just get widened) and Park would require lots of ROW acquisition....in essence, they are practically impossible to widen

I need to understand this a little better.  Are you saying we need more ROW because the streetcar would run outside of the paved road?  Or because we need to a have a minimum 4-lane road to make it possible?  If that is the case, then I think that even further makes the argument for starting the line between the Central Station and the Sports Complex.  Bay Street has 4-lanes of travel and could/should be a 2-way street.

Does the streetcar have to go back & forth on the same street?  Would it make sense for a looped system that goes east on Bay Street, around the stadium, west on Duval Street to Pearl Street and back to Bay?  My guess is that someone has a great reason as to why that is a bad idea, and I am anxious to hear it.

maybe I misunderstood....Ennis said that streetcar is in the Mobility Plan insted of widening Riverside Ave or Park Street...then Stephen asked how much the widening would cost.

The assumption for streetcar is that it runs on the existing street...so no ROW would not be needed

No you didn't misunderstand.  You are correct.  A streetcar would run in existing ROW.  The alternative would be to widen either Park or Riverside Ave.  Doing such would mean purchasing ROW and demolishing historic structures and areas like Five Points, to create the room necessary for increased roadway capacity.

In short, there's no need for a public summit to convince suburbanites of putting a streetcar in Riverside, since tax money would not be required for its construction.  This is a specific environment where mass transit is the logical and affordable answer and has already been recognized by JTA, the TPO and the city as a future congestion reliever in this certain area.

[thelakelander]

Start with rallying people in the core because those are gonna be the people who benefit the most & who have also probably been around enough to know what a good transit system can do for a city.

I would suggest to anyone trying to put some type of advocacy group together to get a better understanding of what has already been done to pave the way for implementation of reliable mass transit in the urban core.  Start by working within the system.  There are projects already planned and a couple that already have funding mechanisms set up for them.  These include BRT, the Riverside/DT Streetcar line and the S-Line through the Northside.  We don't need a public summit for these, the public has already spoken in the form of the neighborhood visioning plans that have already been adopted by COJ.  We just need to see them through and make sure they are designed and implemented to be as reliable and cost efficient as possible. Try rallying around and using them as demonstration projects to the public at large to illustrate the effectiveness of mass transit.

As for a mass transit connection to the sports district, I would suggest trying to work with the DT TCEA.  If it can be modified, it should generate more than enough funds to connect something to the sports district.  Again, we don't need to convince suburbanites of this, unless the plan is to ask them to fund it. 

[Ocklawaha]

Well you know what they say about AMTRAK and RAIL supporters? We have to hang together or the highway lobby will hang us individually.

However...

I think am at a new stage in my life, "Old railroaders never die, we just lose track..."

OCKLAWAHA