http://www.news4jax.com/money/26680230/detail.html
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Just as Jacksonville homeowners are paying sky-high electric bills for keeping their homes warm during December's record cold weather, some of the same people having trouble paying their JEA bills are being asked to pay an additional deposit.
The city-owned utility calls it deposit reassessment, and report a 50 percent increase in January in the number of current customers having to pay a deposit.
Francia Paulino was one of many people standing in line Monday to pay an electric bill that had doubled over the previous month. She isn't required to pay an additional deposit but spoke about them.
"We don't have jobs or anything and we have to give up more money -- money that they are not going to give back anyway," Paulino said. "That's ridiculous."
The JEA has a formula that gives all customers 1,000 points, but they lose 100 points for each bounced check and another 100 points if the become two months behind and their power is shut off. If a customer's points drop below 800, the utility is assess a deposit.
"We do assess deposit when you reach a threshold, as far as your credit score with JEA," said utility spokeswoman Gerry Boyce.
Once customer who contacted Channel 4's Jim Piggott after his power was disconnected for two days now has to pay $740 just to keep his electricity on.
"How is this working with people and not pouring salt in a wound?" Shawn G. wrote in an e-mail "How is it moral or ethical for them to charge outrageous deposits if you are already struggling?"
JEA said it can work with people and spread that deposit payment over several months, but they have to charge those with a problem payment history more to protect its other customers from having to pay for their losses.
"What we try to do is limit or lessen the number of write-offs we have," Boyce said.
In the north they call it the Mafia and in Jax they call it JEA
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 01, 2011, 01:34:59 PM
In the north they call it the Mafia and in Jax they call it JEA
+1000!!!!!
This happened to me years ago when I was habitually late with my payments. I was consistently 2 months behind when they hit me for a $500 add-on deposit. Even though I was late, I always paid... and in lump sums. The $500 seemed to be an exorbitant amount and I was furious... not that it mattered. What are you going to do, take your business to another provider?
I really do not know what has happend to JEA, it surely isnt the same company my grandparents and great-grandparents used to work for. very sad. the same could be said about COJ and JTA.
Short answer to your question, no, there's nobody who actually likes JEA. Except maybe the GOB's running it and getting rich off it. Even then they probably still hate the service but just like the $$$.
And then you have the "Well if you paid your bill on time it wouldn't be a problem" guys, not to mention the "we still have the lowest rates in never-never-land" crowd.
I was just talking about this with some of my NYC friends while I was down in Miami this weekend who have apartments similarly sized. 400 dollar a month bills are unheard of, one of them actually audibly gasped.
I've been hit with this late tax (and I call it a tax because you will most likely never.. ever.. see that money again. And you have no choice but to pay it) and it sucks. Because the reason you're running behind on your bill is because you don't have the money to pay it. Tack on the JEA late fee, a reconnection fee if necessary, and throw in a deposit 2.5 times the size of the bill and you're screwed.
If there's a reason that pay-day loan shark places exist in Jacksonville, it's JEA.
It's 2 steps shy of a mafia racket. "Gee, it sure would be a shame if we had to cut your power off or raise your rates. You know, if you give me a little extra scratch I can make sure that we can have a 'peaceful neighborhood'. Wouldn't want anything to happen to that pretty little elderly grandmother of yours. If ya catch my drift."
OK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
OK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
And when the bills are unpaid because of the doubling of rates since 2005?
And when this money goes to make loans and equity investments in other businesses linked to management?
And when the same people who's power is being disconnected actually own the utility?
What then?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
OK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
Many people are being penalized right now for late payments or problems they may have had 12 months ago...
People may have fixed their situations from past problems (ie, unemployment, reduction of hours, increase in utilities and/or expenses) yet they are still being hit with $500 + deposit requirements.
Well, well, well.....
I guess for those of you unfortunate people who can't seem to pay your electric bills, it's time to cut back on your expanded cable, drop the imports and start drinking Natural Light and maybe quitting smoking should be in the cards.
Wait, I rushed to judgement again, silly me.
I'm sure all of the people having problems with their JEA bill have already trimmed their budgets as far back as they can, they don't drink or smoke, eating out is just a rich person's deream and it's just the power of the megamonopoly kicking them while their down on their luck.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
OK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
Still nothing? I had three suggestions off the top of my head. Certainly someone here has concrete solutions...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 07:53:21 PM
Still nothing? I had three suggestions off the top of my head. Certainly someone here has concrete solutions...
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 01, 2011, 07:50:57 PM
it's time to cut back on your expanded cable, drop the imports and start drinking Natural Light and maybe quitting smoking
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 01, 2011, 07:50:57 PM
Well, well, well.....
I guess for those of you unfortunate people who can't seem to pay your electric bills, it's time to cut back on your expanded cable, drop the imports and start drinking Natural Light and maybe quitting smoking should be in the cards.
Wait, I rushed to judgement again, silly me.
I'm sure all of the people having problems with their JEA bill have already trimmed their budgets as far back as they can, they don't drink or smoke, eating out is just a rich person's deream and it's just the power of the megamonopoly kicking them while their down on their luck.
Good idea since everyone fits into your broad brushstroke picture of society...I didn't realize everyone had expanded cable, drank and smoked?
Turn off your sarcasm filter and read it again.
So what you're saying, is that anyone who is unhappy with JEA should just shut up because they're all obviously a bunch of drunk smokers with a comcast habit? Way to generalize.
So what about the working parents making minimum wage? Should they shut up because they didn't go to college? What about the aforementioned elderly lady with no family.. or no family close enough to assist her? Should she shut up when it's 23 degrees out in winter and she has no heat because she can't afford to heat her house? (Ohh, don't give me the that "there are plenty of social services willing to help" bs either.)
You're so willing to accept that a utility that we, the residents of this fair city are supposed to own is shifting money off to the GOB network at our expense. Why? Are you getting a cut? Just asking.
You know what - I redact my last statement. It's not because people can't afford to pay their bill, it's because they're writing bad checks to pay their bills or let their service get shut off.
In the case of the former - you should stop writing checks because you apparently don't know how to balance your account.
In the case of the latter - you should learn some basic money management skills and not let your account hit 60 days - they will turn off your power & your water. They will charge you an additional fee to turn them back on. And they provide several options to extend your payments if you find yourself in a bind.
I was just informed me that if I was having a problem making this month's payment she could: a.) roll everything to a future date, b.) spread this payment over a period of 4 months or c.) put my account on a 3 day hold so I can come in and speak with a supervisor at one of the branch offices.
So, what say you now?
BTW the deposit..... it's just that, a deposit. The money will be applied to your account when you bring your 'JEA' rating back up - with interest I might add, but I think I'll just keep my money in a CD and pay my bills somewhat on time.
I’m wondering how much money exists within the JEA deposit holding fund. If one were to assume perhaps 600,000 accounts in Duval County, with 20 percent being commercial with an average of $4,000 for a deposit (my deposit is currently $9,100.00), and with 80 percent being residential having an average deposit of perhaps $250, then the total in the deposit fund may be 600,000 x .20 = 120,000 x 4,000 = $480,000,000 for a total of commercial deposits. Then for residential.. 600,000 x .80 = 480,000 x 250 = $120,000,000 or for a total of commercial and residential deposits of $600,000,000. In any case, the total deposit fund must be somewhere between $500,000,000 and $600,000,000. I may be way off, as I’ve done no research, and have only guessed at the probable figures and percentages. If it’s close, it’s a lot of money to be held. Is it proper? Is it really needed? Is it legal? Of course, it is the policy.
It would be interesting to see the statistics on file at JEA, showing how much money is lost to those who skip town owing JEA. This info may allow anyone to determine if the deposit scheme is appropriate, valid and necessary, or ultimately, even legal. I've been in business for thirty-five years, and have so far paid every penny owed to JEA, which is probably approaching a million or so dollars. Late last year my deposit was increased from $2,000 to $9,100. Was a shocker. I guess they think I am about to go down and stick them with a big loss. After paying almost a million dollars reliably over thirty-five years, they want to burden me with a $9,100 deposit. Sounds sort of fishy to me. I could have used that money to buy books; and then if I had anything left, I could buy food and beer.
You're bringing another element into the equation: if you HAVE paid your bills/ARE PAYING your bills on time, then why are they still holding a deposit? I had to pay a deposit when I first started my account and have been hit with 1 other deposit requirement in 10 years (bounced check - part of the reason I don't use checks anymore - I am one of those people after all, but I can admit it.) But after another few good years of service, I was credited the deposit with interest, and haven't seen another one in a good 5-6 years.
When we bought our latest home, my electric bills went up considerably, but i've been 3 years here, and still no other deposit requirements. Right now, all that I 'owe' JEA is what's on my current statement. If this is mis-information, then someone please correct me.
How do other utilities handle late payers? ...maybe JEA could look into those methods.
I am still in favor of disbanding JEA and opening up the bids to other utilities. Also, cut or re-negotiate all pensions of the dismembered JEA entity. I find it hard to believe that we are remotely within the cheapest rates in the country. On top of that, water shouldn't cost as much as it does either.
JEA seems to be one of the most dysfunctional,poorly run organizations in the state.
Q1. Is this $500-600 million in an untouchable escrow account?
Q2. Is this an interest bearing account?
Q3. If an interest bearing account, is that reserved for the account holders or can JEA dip in?
Q4. If reserved for the account holders, when can they draw the interest?
QuoteHow do other utilities handle late payers? ...maybe JEA could look into those methods.
I am still in favor of disbanding JEA and opening up the bids to other utilities. Also, cut or re-negotiate all pensions of the dismembered JEA entity. I find it hard to believe that we are remotely within the cheapest rates in the country. On top of that, water shouldn't cost as much as it does either.
JEA seems to be one of the most dysfunctional,poorly run organizations in the state.
Here ya go Chip...
http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp
When I first moved to JAX I had an auto pay set up because I travel so much for a year everything was fine until a merger at my bank occurred and my auto pay schedule was inadvertantly messed up, the payment date changed from the 5th of each month to the 15th of each month. Needless to say I started getting hit by the JEA deposit mafia (keep in mind this is like 4 or 5 days late payment, even Mortgages get 15 days!), and because I was away travelling I had no idea. Since the deposits were not paid my power was turned off. It ended up costing me $1800 in deposits to get the power turned back on. I sent JEA the letter from my bank to show, that the dates had been changed outside of my control, to no avail they wanted that $1800 in deposits or I was going to get no power. Keep in mind, I did not owe them for any usage, this was a deposit they felt they were due because the bill had been paid 4 to 5 days late over three months, and the power cut off due non payment of the deposit. Now tell me that is not a complete racket!!! I did pay the deposit as I wanted electricity, I did not get any of it back until I moved and cut the electric off three years later, (after never being late again over three years!) and then I got less than my deposit- no interest.
When I got my thousand dollar Dec bill (no change to my usage from Nov or Oct or Sept)I paid it because I can, I complained because the bill is BS, but I paid it. I was lucky because I make enough I could and still pay my other bills and eat. But I am LUCKY, most people cannot absorb an unexpected thousand dollar loss in one month. For a lot of people that is half their monthly take home pay. My house was COLD, I used the fireplaces. I feel sorry for anyone who actually used their heater. I think it is obnoxious to say people who do not pay their bill are drunken smoking cable watchers. This month my bill is HALF of December, and yet I have still made no changes to my usage. Where else do you purchase goods where they just make up the price every month and tell you AFTER you are billed then charge you outrageous sums if you can;t pay the imaginary costs they just came up with, and then cut your power if you don;t pay a deposit (a deposit is based on future use,which is not yet consumed and so not yet behind!)
Fantastic story Uptown, you've completely changed my entire perception of JEA. ::)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 09:29:39 AM
Fantastic story Uptown, you've completely changed my entire perception of JEA. ::)
Don't worry, I don't think anyone was expecting you to let those pesky "facts" get your way. ;D
I'm ok with JEA - well from their power production side. From what I hear, they have decent power plants and they run them pretty well. I like the idea of them building their own fiber network. I don't have any major complaints about my power quality except a flicker once every so often.
As for their customer service & finances, I don't want to think about it. Luckily I never had to deal with them but the stories I hear from them is terrifying.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 06:35:13 AM
QuoteHow do other utilities handle late payers? ...maybe JEA could look into those methods.
I am still in favor of disbanding JEA and opening up the bids to other utilities. Also, cut or re-negotiate all pensions of the dismembered JEA entity. I find it hard to believe that we are remotely within the cheapest rates in the country. On top of that, water shouldn't cost as much as it does either.
JEA seems to be one of the most dysfunctional,poorly run organizations in the state.
Here ya go Chip...
http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp
Wow, good find Bridge Troll. So I guess its an even more compelling reason to demand a switch to our neighbors at FP&L considering that thy are about 15% cheaper than JEA.
Oops... looks like the practice is pretty common...
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/fpl-florida-power-amp-light-c166876.html
QuoteI am writing in hopes someone out there gets angry enough to file a class action lawsuit against FPL for unfair utilities practice. I lost my employment Jan. 8 2009 and because of a mistake on an account (Nov.of 2008) the check was returned. I found out this happened and I paid it by cash right away, but today Feb.20 2009 I received a threat from FPL that if I did not send an additional deposit of $184.00 by Feb 24 2009 power would be shut off. I wanted to see if others were having the same problems with Florida Power & Light so I checked online and was not surprised to find many complaints. I did however noticed something interesting, FPL demanding different amounts from different customers.
I was wondering do they (FPL) set these extra deposits on a whim?
If you want to know what to do, write Gov. Charlie Crist and tell him what this bully is allowed to do to all of us. Want real change? Fight Back!!
Looks like the deposit practice is actually a state law. It is required.
http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3012775
QuoteA check with the Florida Public Service Commission shows there have been 93 deposit-related complaints from FPL customers during the past 60 days. Cindy Muir, a spokeswoman for the state regulator, said the number is an increase of 33 complaints from the same time period last year. It is unclear how many of those complaints are specifically related to late-payment deposits, Muir said.
FPL spokesman Mayco Villafana said the company's deposit policy follows state regulations and is enforced to cover bad debt expenses, which have been increasing.
FPL follows state regulations and requires a deposit to secure payment of bills from new account holders or late payers. The deposit can't exceed twice the average monthly charges for electric service over a 12-month period. On average, the deposit totals $200 or more.
Except JEA is asking for additional deposits of $500 - $700. I thinks it's kinda funny BT that you spend your morning scouring the internet for proof of other utilities companies ramrodding their 'dead-beat' customers. I'm all for personal accountability... but standing up for a monopoly provider that gets away with these drastic penalties and grossly over charging a bulk of customers without even reading their meters is silly.
-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable.... anything more than that is an abuse of power. Any other company with at least 1 competitor would never get away with this.
Here it is... Click on the word doc...
https://www.flrules.org/gateway/ruleNo.asp?id=25-6.097
Quote25-6.097 Customer Deposits.
(1) Deposit required; establishment of credit. Each company’s tariff shall contain their specific criteria for determining the amount of initial deposit. Each utility may require an applicant for service to satisfactorily establish credit, but such establishment of credit shall not relieve the customer from complying with the utilities’ rules for prompt payment of bills. Credit will be deemed so established if:
(a) The applicant for service furnishes a satisfactory guarantor to secure payment of bills for the service requested. For residential customers, a satisfactory guarantor shall, at the minimum, be a customer of the utility with a satisfactory payment record. For non-residential customers, a satisfactory guarantor need not be a customer of the utility. Each utility shall develop minimum financial criteria that a proposed guarantor must meet to qualify as a satisfactory guarantor. A copy of the criteria shall be made available to each new non-residential customer upon request by the customer. A guarantor’s liability shall be terminated when a residential customer whose payment of bills is secured by the guarantor meets the requirements of subsection (2) of this rule. Guarantors providing security for payment of residential customers’ bills shall only be liable for bills contracted at the service address contained in the contract of guaranty.
(b) The applicant pays a cash deposit.
(c) The applicant for service furnishes an irrevocable letter of credit from a bank or a surety bond.
(2) Refund of deposits. After a customer has established a satisfactory payment record and has had continuous service for a period of 23 months, the utility shall refund the residential customer’s deposits and shall, at its option, either refund or pay the higher rate of interest specified below for nonresidential deposits, providing the customer has not, in the preceding 12 months.
(a) Made more than one late payment of a bill (after the expiration of 20 days from the date of mailing or delivery by the utility).
(b) Paid with a check refused by a bank.
(c) Been disconnected for nonpayment, or at any time.
(d) Tampered with the electric meter, or
(e) Used service in a fraudulent or unauthorized manner.
QuoteI thinks it's kinda funny BT that you spend your morning scouring the internet for proof of other utilities companies ramrodding their 'dead-beat' customers.
Not doing anything of the sort Shwaz. I do like to see "facts" rather than "this happened to me" anecdotes. Once the facts are established I would be more than happy to argue what is legal, or fair, or whether the law should be changed.
I would think you would appreciate that...
Yeah, people relating their personal experiences on a forum... how strange. This debate of what actions are legal with in FL administration code is a debate of 1. No one here is claiming JEA is acting outside of the law.
The consensus here is that these measures are not well received.
... and apparently no one loves JEA
Quotehttp://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/07/12/daily34.html
QuoteJacksonville Electric Authority tied for the next-to-last ranked position in customer satisfaction, according to the 2010 Electric Utility Residential Customer Satisfaction Study released by J.D. Power and Associates.
JEA scored 602 points on a 1,000-point scale in the South Region: Midsize Segment - two points higher than last year.
Residential customer satisfaction is measured in the study by examining power quality and reliability, price, billing and payment, corporate citizenship, communications, and customer service.
JEA dropped to the 25 position from 22 last year. Utility companies averaged 643 in the South Region: Midsize Segment and 630 overall.
Read more: JEA gets low score from J.D. Powers | Jacksonville Business Journal
Dont know about you Shwaz... but I learned something about the whole issue this morning rather than just complain about it.
Chip asked...
QuoteHow do other utilities handle late payers? ...maybe JEA could look into those methods
I provided an answer other than... "yeah dude... they suck".
Complaining to JEA, FPL, Clay, etc... is not going to do you any good. The complaints
clearly should be directed to the Florida Public Service Commission who regulates the Utilities.
Clearly... the Utilities do not have a choice in the matter.
Apparently...
"unwarranted" deposits added to peoples bills is NOT a reason to hate JEA. It may very well be a reason to hate the FPSC.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 10:59:55 AM
Dont know about you Shwaz... but I learned something about the whole issue this morning rather than just complain about it.
Chip asked...
QuoteHow do other utilities handle late payers? ...maybe JEA could look into those methods
I provided an answer other than... "yeah dude... they suck".
Complaining to JEA, FPL, Clay, etc... is not going to do you any good. The complaints clearly should be directed to the Florida Public Service Commission who regulates the Utilities. Clearly... the Utilities do not have a choice in the matter.
Apparently... "unwarranted" deposits added to peoples bills is NOT a reason to hate JEA. It may very well be a reason to hate the FPSC.
Well more than that. You approached this thread with an agenda and disdain for those who question the measures of this local monopoly...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 01, 2011, 06:43:00 PM
OK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I'm sure a pig just flew by outside my window, but I totally agree with Schwaz.
JEA has overstepped any reasonable measures required to protect itself from bad debts, and is just building a cash pool to earn additional investment income from while they sit on other peoples' money. There is no reason that somebody with your average $250/mo bill should have to pay a $1k deposit, yet that happens all the time. They shut off your utilities once you get past a month late, what's the point of requiring these huge deposits?
And FWIW, JEA is county-owned and is exempt from the PUC and deposit regulations. If JEA was held to that rule about not exceeding 2 months' average useage, you wouldn't see everybody having to cough up $1k deposits, and in one case on this thread a $10k deposit.
Also, I think that in all fairness, they should be required to set up an installment payment plan for the deposits separate from the utility bills. The current practice of assessing the deposit to the current month's bill and then disconnecting power if the accountholder is unable to pay the $1k additional charge JEA tacked on by the next statement date is pretty outrageous.
Full disclosure; I have had no bounced checks, JEA has never required a deposit from me, and I've not had my power disconnected. Unlike some members of the Teabagger peanut-gallery around here, I just have this weird thing called "empathy" and the ability to place myself in "someone else's shoes" and I can see what a problem JEA's behavior would be for some folks.
An installment plan is another reasonable option... unfortunately you find the words reasonable or fair in any JEA mission statement.
Good lord... ::) JEA is doing what virtually ALL utilities do. I am sure there are one or two Utilities that are as benevelant and caring as you guys say JEA should be. Please... by any and all means... show me. THEN JEA can be approached with a real and workable alternative to their greedy and evil ways.
This is what I said... and I stand by it!
QuoteOK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I have provided facts as to
WHY JEA acts as it does... perhaps one of you can provide an alternative to their methods. Perhaps a suggestion? Solution?
Who is stealing something? Is JEA, FPL, Clay and virtually every Utility in North America doing something illegal? Sounds like something a good attorny should be able to handle...
BridgeTroll, the rest of them require 2 months' average usage as a deposit. JEA requires $1k or more, for no reason.
For the second time, JEA as a wholly-owned operating unit of a county government is not subject to regulation by the state or PUC, and is not subject to these deposit requirements. JEA routinely requires deposits that far exceed the state guidelines, and far exceed the amount other utilities charge.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 01:23:16 PM
Good lord... ::) JEA is doing what virtually ALL utilities do. I am sure there are one or two Utilities that are as benevelant and caring as you guys say JEA should be. Please... by any and all means... show me. THEN JEA can be approached with a real and workable alternative to their greedy and evil ways.
This is what I said... and I stand by it!
QuoteOK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I have provided facts as to WHY JEA acts as it does... perhaps one of you can provide an alternative to their methods. Perhaps a suggestion? Solution?
In your haste to prove that JEA are the good guys you either didn't have time to read the other posts in this thread or maybe you just passed them off as "anecdotal"...
Suggestions were made.. they may not have been as condescending or sarcastic as yours.. but suggestions all the same
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable....
Chris also pointed out that you maybe incorrect and JEA is not governed by the state guidlines you provided... and even if they are / were the inflated deposit amounts requested are much higher than allowed... also in the links you provided.
Here's one more suggestion you can choose not to read; Why not offer our utility service contract to private companies?
:D
QuoteYes, they are stealing the use of the money.
QuoteJust because you claim that 'virtually every publicly owned utility in North America' is doing something doesnt make it true.
Certainly they should be prosecuted. Are they? have they? I really dont know. One could easily assume that a judge could tell them to cease stealing while the case is being prosecuted...
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 01:23:16 PM
Good lord... ::) JEA is doing what virtually ALL utilities do. I am sure there are one or two Utilities that are as benevelant and caring as you guys say JEA should be. Please... by any and all means... show me. THEN JEA can be approached with a real and workable alternative to their greedy and evil ways.
This is what I said... and I stand by it!
QuoteOK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I have provided facts as to WHY JEA acts as it does... perhaps one of you can provide an alternative to their methods. Perhaps a suggestion? Solution?
In your haste to prove that JEA are the good guys you either didn't have time to read the other posts in this thread or maybe you just passed them off as "anecdotal"...
Suggestions were made.. they may not have been as condescending or sarcastic as yours.. but suggestions all the same
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable....
Chris also pointed out that you maybe incorrect and JEA is not governed by the state guidlines you provided... and even if they are / were the inflated deposit amounts requested are much higher than allowed... also in the links you provided.
Here's one more suggestion you can choose not to read; Why not offer our utility service contract to private companies?
Shwaz... can we chalk up my alleged sarcasm or condescending to this medium that is not very condusive to conversation? That is not my intent.
you said...
Quote-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable....
Are they? Again... is this conjecture, is it viable?
I will say again... I am not here defending JEA. Not a big fan either. I had to fight it out with them over a bogus bill at one time also.
Well, since someone mentioned BridgeTroll's rather troubled relationship with the facts...
Direct from the Florida Public Utilities Commission;
QuoteWhat the PSC Does Not Regulate:
-Rates and adequacy of services provided by municipally
owned and rural cooperative electric utilities, except for
safety oversight.
-Electrical wiring inside the customer’s building
-Taxes on the electric bill
-Physical placement of transmission and distribution
lines
-Damage claims
-Right of way
-Physical placement or relocation of utility poles
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/publications/consumer/brochure/When_to_Call_the_PSC.pdf
Seems like BT doesn't research his claims very well. The truth is that the state does not have the authority to regulate JEA's billing or rates, and accordingly we have no state protection when dealing with JEA on billing issues or deposit requirements. They can do whatever they damn well please, and that's exactly what they do.
How in his extensive research on the business practices of "
every public utility" could he have missed this?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 01:57:36 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 01:23:16 PM
Good lord... ::) JEA is doing what virtually ALL utilities do. I am sure there are one or two Utilities that are as benevelant and caring as you guys say JEA should be. Please... by any and all means... show me. THEN JEA can be approached with a real and workable alternative to their greedy and evil ways.
This is what I said... and I stand by it!
QuoteOK... what should JEA's response be to unpaid or chronically late bills? Should they just keep adding it to next months bill? Billing forgiveness? Raise the rates of the "rich people" so those who cannot pay, do not have to?
Solutions? Suggestions? Helpful hints?
I have provided facts as to WHY JEA acts as it does... perhaps one of you can provide an alternative to their methods. Perhaps a suggestion? Solution?
In your haste to prove that JEA are the good guys you either didn't have time to read the other posts in this thread or maybe you just passed them off as "anecdotal"...
Suggestions were made.. they may not have been as condescending or sarcastic as yours.. but suggestions all the same
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 10:31:46 AM
-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable....
Chris also pointed out that you maybe incorrect and JEA is not governed by the state guidlines you provided... and even if they are / were the inflated deposit amounts requested are much higher than allowed... also in the links you provided.
Here's one more suggestion you can choose not to read; Why not offer our utility service contract to private companies?
Shwaz... can we chalk up my alleged sarcasm or condescending to this medium that is not very condusive to conversation? That is not my intent.
you said...
Quote-Late fees
-Reconnection fees
-Additional deposits of $100 or less
Are all acceptable....
Are they? Again... is this conjecture, is it viable?
I will say again... I am not here defending JEA. Not a big fan either. I had to fight it out with them over a bogus bill at one time also.
It seems to work for almost every company that has at least 1 competitor in their given market. I don't hear anyone complaining about Comcast hitting them up for an additional $1,000 because they were late on payments... and it doesn't happen with cell phone service providers even when they have you in a 2 year commitment.
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 02:07:04 PM
I don't hear anyone complaining about Comcast hitting them up for an additional $1,000 because they were late on payments... and it doesn't happen with cell phone service providers even when they have you in a 2 year commitment.
Well of course not. Since anyone in their right mind would tell them to go !@#$ themselves and switch to a competitor.
Which really highlights the problem with monopolies, doesn't it? They can do whatever they want when you've got nowhere else to go. As a side note, I'm really surprised that 2 of our 3 resident Teabaggers are always arguing in favor of JEA's draconian policies. Whatever happened to all that "free market" stuff?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 02:07:04 PM
I don't hear anyone complaining about Comcast hitting them up for an additional $1,000 because they were late on payments... and it doesn't happen with cell phone service providers even when they have you in a 2 year commitment.
Well of course not. Since anyone in their right mind would tell them to go !@#$ themselves and switch to a competitor.
Which really highlights the problem with monopolies, doesn't it? They can do whatever they want when you've got nowhere else to go. As a side note, I'm really surprised that 2 of our 3 resident Teabaggers are always arguing in favor of JEA's draconian policies. Whatever happened to all that "free market" stuff?
Putting the utilities up for private bid is an option that should be explored. As it seems hard to properly regulate a quasi government run entity.
Here's something I found interesting.
http://news.jacksonville.com/govtsalaries/ (http://news.jacksonville.com/govtsalaries/)
This comes from further down in the rules regarding deposits that were previously quoted:
"the total amount of the required deposit shall not exceed an amount equal to twice the average charges for actual usage of electric service for the twelve month period immediately prior to the date of notice."
So, I can read that as saying the JEA bean counters interpret that as using the total of 12 months of payments as the basis for new deposits. That means if you're paying $150 a month - total of $1,800 a year - then they would be justified in charging a deposit of whatever minimum they wanted up to a total of $3,600 which is twice the 12 month electrical usage charge.
You don't have to agree with my math but it would appear that the results reported in this thread do support my point. The next sentence in the rule,
"In the event the customer has had service less than twelve months, then the utility shall base its new or additional deposit upon the average actual monthly usage available",
actually states using the monthly average if your service has been less than a year, which I interpret as saying if your monthly usage is $150 then the max they can charge is $300.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 02:11:33 PM
Quote from: Shwaz on February 02, 2011, 02:07:04 PM
I don't hear anyone complaining about Comcast hitting them up for an additional $1,000 because they were late on payments... and it doesn't happen with cell phone service providers even when they have you in a 2 year commitment.
Well of course not. Since anyone in their right mind would tell them to go !@#$ themselves and switch to a competitor.
Which really highlights the problem with monopolies, doesn't it? They can do whatever they want when you've got nowhere else to go. As a side note, I'm really surprised that 2 of our 3 resident Teabaggers are always arguing in favor of JEA's draconian policies. Whatever happened to all that "free market" stuff?
I have never lived someplace where I could pick my local utility. Have you?
A better title for this thread might be "Who trusts JEA?"
Certainly not the JEA customers who could suddenly bleach their laundry in their drinking water from a spill not acknowledged for a day or two by JEA. Ooops!
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=189507&catid=3
QuoteHow in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Every Utility charges late fees, cuts off power and water after a predetermined and announced period of non-payment and many of them charge a deposit for chronic non payment... based on a point system very similar if not identical to JEA's.
Just sayin... JEA is doing nothing, that I can tell, that is out of the norm throughout the USA.
Of course if your complaint is that ALL Utilities are unfair in their treatment of users who do not pay that is another thread.
QuoteD. CUSTOMER CALL OUT (OVERTIME HOURS): A charge to recover the costs associated with providing call out service to Customers requesting emergency or non-emergency turn on and/or turn off service and the like, and that is intended to discourage unnecessary Overtime Hours requests. Efforts will be made by Authority personnel to assist the Customer with resolving turn on and/or turn off problems.
Service Charge per Trip
Performed by one (1) person $ 75
Performed by two (2) persons 150
E. CUT SEAL AND TAMPERING: See separate resolution.
F. DISHONORED PAYMENT INSTRUMENT: A charge that shall be assessed for each Dishonored Payment Instrument. It is based on Florida Statute 68.065, which is subject to change.
a) Twenty-five dollars, if the face value does not exceed $50.
b) Thirty dollars, if the face value is more than $50 but does not exceed $300.
c) The greater of $40 or 5% of the face value, if the face value is more than $300.
When a Customer has presented two (2) Dishonored Payment Instruments for their account within a twelve-month (12) period, the Authority will not accept payment instruments on the account for twelve (12) months. The Customer must pay by cash or money order until the twelve-month period is over.
G. FIELD RECONNECTION â€" DELINQUENT ACCOUNT: A charge to defray the cost of disconnecting and reconnecting Utility Service previously discontinued or ordered discontinued for cause or because of nonpayment of amounts due. This charge is in addition to the
Penalty and Late Payment Charges. Under normal circumstances, these Service Charge(s) shall be paid in full before the re-establishment of Utility Service(s).
Regular Overtime Service Hours Hours
Electric $35 $150
Electric Current Transformer (CT) 200 200 Electric Pole 75 150
Gas - Residential 35 150
Gas - Commercial Time & Materials Time & Materials
(not less than $150)
Water 35 150
If a water Customer also receives electric service from the Authority at the same Service Address and only one trip by the Authority is required to reconnect both the water and electric services, only the electric Field Reconnection Charge shall apply. However, if reconnection of the water and electric services
requires two separate trips by the Authority, such as an electric reconnect at the pole by an electric crew and a water Meter reconnect by a water crew, then the Customer shall be required to pay the applicable electric Field Reconnection Charge and the applicable water Field Reconnection Charge.
http://www.fpua.com/files/Resolutions/2005-07.pdf
Westsider, JEA isn't regulated by any commission or association, since they are technically an arm of a county government. But notwithstanding that, you've pretty much proved my point here, haven't you? If the utility is already collecting a "reconnection fee" and making money off it, and there is no chance of them actually losing much money since they're a monopoly and it's mighty hard to live without electricity, what's the point of the deposit?
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2011, 02:50:34 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
QuoteHow in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Every Utility charges late fees, cuts off power and water after a predetermined and announced period of non-payment and many of them charge a deposit for chronic non payment... based on a point system very similar if not identical to JEA's.
Just sayin... JEA is doing nothing, that I can tell, that is out of the norm throughout the USA.
Of course if your complaint is that ALL Utilities are unfair in their treatment of users who do not pay that is another thread.
Please post your source comparing PUBLICLY OWNED utility companies.
Thanks.
I will leave that for you to find. I have done most of the research and linking up to this point... I welcome your help.
sigh... here is some more...
Quote100 Largest Public Power Utilities, by Electric Customers Served, 2008
Ultimate customers served
1 Los Angeles Department of Water & Power ............CA ..... 1,461,521
2 Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority ........................ PR ..... 1,452,946
3 Long Island Power Authority .................................... NY ..... 1,111,903
4 Salt River Project .......................................................AZ ........ 939,579
5 CPS Energy (San Antonio) ......................................... TX ........ 689,339
6 Sacramento Municipal Utility District .......................CA ........ 590,677
7 JEA (Jacksonville) .......................................................FL ........ 414,769
8 Memphis Light, Gas and Water Division ..................TN ........ 410,518
9 Austin Energy .............................................................TX ........ 400,005
10 Seattle City Light .....................................................WA ........ 387,714
11 Nashville Electric Service ..........................................TN ........ 357,020
12 Omaha Public Power District .....................................NE ........ 339,657
13 Public Utility District No. 1 of Snohomish County ...WA ........ 317,612
14 Colorado Springs Utilities ..........................................CO ........ 208,257
15 Knoxville Utilities Board ............................................TN ........ 196,302
16 Orlando Utilities Commission .....................................FL ........ 188,569
17 Clark Public Utilities ................................................WA ........ 186,021
18 Tacoma Public Utilities ............................................WA ........ 166,311
19 Santee Cooper
(South Carolina Public Service Authority) .................SC ........ 162,690
20 EPB - Chattanooga Electric Power Board ..................TN ........ 158,845
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 03:50:48 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2011, 02:50:34 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 02:41:36 PM
QuoteHow in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Every Utility charges late fees, cuts off power and water after a predetermined and announced period of non-payment and many of them charge a deposit for chronic non payment... based on a point system very similar if not identical to JEA's.
Just sayin... JEA is doing nothing, that I can tell, that is out of the norm throughout the USA.
Of course if your complaint is that ALL Utilities are unfair in their treatment of users who do not pay that is another thread.
Please post your source comparing PUBLICLY OWNED utility companies.
Thanks.
I will leave that for you to find. I have done most of the research and linking up to this point... I welcome your help.
No you haven't.
You posted a bunch of rules that don't apply to JEA, don't connect to each other, and don't have anything whatsoever to do with the discussion. It's like slapping a dead pig carcass, a couple bags of planting manure, a bag of lettuce seeds, a bag of onion seeds, and some raw wheat on the dining table and saying "here hon, I made you a sandwich!"
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2011, 03:23:28 PM
um yeah, westsider. I can totally see how a maximum 40 dollar charge on bad checks and a 35 dollar cut on fee for delinquent bills is the same thing as a 500-1,000 dollar deposit, due immediately. They seem pretty much identical. ::)
QuoteCustomers who apply for Residential service will be required to post a
Minimum Security Deposit, or one equal to twice the average monthly bill
(computed as indicated below), whichever is greater. However, upon Customer
request, the UA may use a credit verification agency to obtain the Customer’s Fair,
Isaac score. Based on the score, the UA will determine one of the following deposit
levels: (1) no deposit, (2) Minimum Security Deposit, or (3) deposit equal to twice
the average monthly bill.
A Security Deposit may be waived for Customers who apply for Residential
service. Such Customers must have, within the past two (2)-year period, 1)
terminated a former UA account, and 2) had an Excellent Payment History at the
time the former account was terminated. Excellent Payment History is established
when a Customer does not incur any of the following charges within the most
recent consecutive two (2)-year period:
More than one (1) Penalty Charge per year
Dishonored Payment Instrument Charge
Field Reconnection Charge
Cut Seal Fee
Tampering Fee
When the UA determines a Security Deposit equal to twice the average
monthly bill is necessary, the average monthly bill shall be calculated as follows:
a. Existing accounts: Average the actual Total Amount Billed for the most
recent consecutive twelve (12) month period.
b. New accounts: Average the expected (estimated) Total Amount Billed for
a projected consecutive twelve (12) month period.
c. Existing accounts with less than twelve (12) months of billing history
available: For a twelve (12) month period, use a combination of the
actual monthly billing history available and the expected (estimated)
billings for those months with no actual billing history established.
Total Amount Billed is defined as the total bill rendered for electric, water,
wastewater, gas, and/or solid waste services, including applicable taxes, fees,
service charges, etc.
Security Deposits established or set for any one Utility Service (electric,
water, wastewater, gas, or solid waste) may be applied to other Utility Services.
Resolution No. UA 2002-8
Page 4 of 5
SECTION III. MINIMUM SECURITY DEPOSITS
Following are the minimum Security Deposits for Residential accounts:
Electric ..............................................................$145.00
Gas.......................................................................40.00
Solid Waste ...........................................................22.00
Water Water Wastewater
Meter Size Inside City Outside City Inside City Outside City
5/8†X 3/4†$ 30.00 $ 35.00 $ 35.00 $ 45.00
1-inch 70.00 80.00 60.00 75.00
1-1/2 inch 145.00 165.00 145.00 180.00
2-inch 425.00 490.00 250.00 315.00
3-inch 700.00 800.00 900.00 1,125.00
SECTION IV. ADDITIONAL SECURITY DEPOSITS
Upon reasonable written notice of no less than five (5) business days, the UA
may require an Additional Security Deposit on a Residential account that, regardless
of Excellent Payment History status, has incurred any of the following Service
Charges within a one (1)-year period:
One (1) Dishonored Payment Instrument Charge
One (1) Field Reconnection Charge
One (1) Cut Seal Fee
One (1) Tampering Fee
The Customer will be required to have on deposit with the UA an amount equal to
the Minimum Security Deposit or twice the average monthly bill, whichever is
greater.
http://www.fpua.com/files/res-deposits.pdf
I just needed to do a little more searching. So, I guess it seems that deposits are pretty much SOP at this Florida Publicly Owned Utility Company. I guess that makes them the devil too?
here is SMUD...#6 right above JEA
http://www.smud.org/en/residential/rates/Documents/Rule%202-06.pdf
Very similar rules...
QuoteNo you haven't.
You posted a bunch of rules that don't apply to JEA, don't connect to each other, and don't have anything whatsoever to do with the discussion. It's like slapping a dead pig carcass, a couple bags of planting manure, a bag of lettuce seeds, a bag of onion seeds, and some raw wheat on the dining table and saying "here hon, I made you a sandwich!"
And you have provided...? I welcome your help also...
Please... look something up and post it...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 04:13:34 PM
here is SMUD...#6 right above JEA
http://www.smud.org/en/residential/rates/Documents/Rule%202-06.pdf
Very similar rules...
wait...did you just provide data supporting your point?
btw...here's a public utilility here in Florida...their rates used to be pretty high because the City of Tallahassee used the utility as a way of recouping lost property tax revenue on all the non-taxable (govt.) property in the downtown and university areas....they have since come back down to earth....nevertheless, they also require deposits.
http://www.talgov.com/you/service/faq.cfm#deposits
oh..and here's another useful link....don't trust JEA's rate comparisons? Take a look at how Tallahassee shows their rates compared with other areas....still think JEA is a huge ripoff?
http://www.talgov.com/you/electric/pdf/electric_rate_factsheet.pdf
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 04:13:27 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2011, 03:23:28 PM
um yeah, westsider. I can totally see how a maximum 40 dollar charge on bad checks and a 35 dollar cut on fee for delinquent bills is the same thing as a 500-1,000 dollar deposit, due immediately. They seem pretty much identical. ::)
QuoteCustomers who apply for Residential service will be required to post a
Minimum Security Deposit, or one equal to twice the average monthly bill
(computed as indicated below), whichever is greater. However, upon Customer
request, the UA may use a credit verification agency to obtain the Customer’s Fair,
Isaac score. Based on the score, the UA will determine one of the following deposit
levels: (1) no deposit, (2) Minimum Security Deposit, or (3) deposit equal to twice
the average monthly bill.
A Security Deposit may be waived for Customers who apply for Residential
service. Such Customers must have, within the past two (2)-year period, 1)
terminated a former UA account, and 2) had an Excellent Payment History at the
time the former account was terminated. Excellent Payment History is established
when a Customer does not incur any of the following charges within the most
recent consecutive two (2)-year period:
More than one (1) Penalty Charge per year
Dishonored Payment Instrument Charge
Field Reconnection Charge
Cut Seal Fee
Tampering Fee
When the UA determines a Security Deposit equal to twice the average
monthly bill is necessary, the average monthly bill shall be calculated as follows:
a. Existing accounts: Average the actual Total Amount Billed for the most
recent consecutive twelve (12) month period.
b. New accounts: Average the expected (estimated) Total Amount Billed for
a projected consecutive twelve (12) month period.
c. Existing accounts with less than twelve (12) months of billing history
available: For a twelve (12) month period, use a combination of the
actual monthly billing history available and the expected (estimated)
billings for those months with no actual billing history established.
Total Amount Billed is defined as the total bill rendered for electric, water,
wastewater, gas, and/or solid waste services, including applicable taxes, fees,
service charges, etc.
Security Deposits established or set for any one Utility Service (electric,
water, wastewater, gas, or solid waste) may be applied to other Utility Services.
Resolution No. UA 2002-8
Page 4 of 5
SECTION III. MINIMUM SECURITY DEPOSITS
Following are the minimum Security Deposits for Residential accounts:
Electric ..............................................................$145.00
Gas.......................................................................40.00
Solid Waste ...........................................................22.00
Water Water Wastewater
Meter Size Inside City Outside City Inside City Outside City
5/8” X 3/4” $ 30.00 $ 35.00 $ 35.00 $ 45.00
1-inch 70.00 80.00 60.00 75.00
1-1/2 inch 145.00 165.00 145.00 180.00
2-inch 425.00 490.00 250.00 315.00
3-inch 700.00 800.00 900.00 1,125.00
SECTION IV. ADDITIONAL SECURITY DEPOSITS
Upon reasonable written notice of no less than five (5) business days, the UA
may require an Additional Security Deposit on a Residential account that, regardless
of Excellent Payment History status, has incurred any of the following Service
Charges within a one (1)-year period:
One (1) Dishonored Payment Instrument Charge
One (1) Field Reconnection Charge
One (1) Cut Seal Fee
One (1) Tampering Fee
The Customer will be required to have on deposit with the UA an amount equal to
the Minimum Security Deposit or twice the average monthly bill, whichever is
greater.
http://www.fpua.com/files/res-deposits.pdf
I just needed to do a little more searching. So, I guess it seems that deposits are pretty much SOP at this Florida Publicly Owned Utility Company. I guess that makes them the devil too?
It's not SOP, and you're wrong now the same as you're wrong then, because JEA routinely exceeds the state deposit guidelines, and none of the crap you are copying and pasting online actually applies to JEA, since they....for the 3rd time I've told you this....aren't a state-regulated utility.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 02, 2011, 04:15:12 PM
QuoteNo you haven't.
You posted a bunch of rules that don't apply to JEA, don't connect to each other, and don't have anything whatsoever to do with the discussion. It's like slapping a dead pig carcass, a couple bags of planting manure, a bag of lettuce seeds, a bag of onion seeds, and some raw wheat on the dining table and saying "here hon, I made you a sandwich!"
And you have provided...? I welcome your help also...
Please... look something up and post it...
As you know, I posted the list from the State's own website showing that none of the random crap you posted was applicable to JEA. I mean, I didn't realize we were going to quantity over quality here...
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2011, 04:26:56 PM
btw...here's a public utilility here in Florida...their rates used to be pretty high because the City of Tallahassee used the utility as a way of recouping lost property tax revenue on all the non-taxable (govt.) property in the downtown and university areas....they have since come back down to earth....nevertheless, they also require deposits.
http://www.talgov.com/you/service/faq.cfm#deposits
oh..and here's another useful link....don't trust JEA's rate comparisons? Take a look at how Tallahassee shows their rates compared with other areas....still think JEA is a huge ripoff?
http://www.talgov.com/you/electric/pdf/electric_rate_factsheet.pdf
Yeah, except JEA's are B.S. even in that comparison you posted.
That base rate comparison for JEA is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off. Maybe you'd want to explain why my bill shows usage of 1935 kWh and a charge for electric of $208.60? According to that rate comparison I'd have paid no more than $130. That's how far off that table you posted is.
Ok, Tufsu, so since you've posted something that blows your own point out of the water (as usual) let's do the math, shall we? The incorrect rate comparison you posted shows that 1000kWh with JEA would cost $66.30, for an effective rate of $0.0663 p/kWh. Except that's not what JEA charges, is it?
This is what JEA charges;
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/chriswufgator/JEABill.jpg)
Roughly 9 & 1/2 cents p/kWh. That's REALITY, not bogus internet B.S. That's my real bill.
And I'm paying more now, since another 9% rate increase has gone into effect since then!
Or how about this one?
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/chriswufgator/JEABill2.jpg)
So that's 1628 kWh for $176.37, or roughly the same 9 and a half cents per kWh. This is a full 50% higher than the bogus rate comparison Tufsu is posting, and that doesn't even include all the bogus fees. When you add in the "Franchise Fee" and "Public Service" fee, both of which go right back into the city's coffers, the actual effective rate is more like $0.12 p/kWh, which actually places us as one of the most expensive utilities in the entire country, let alone the state of Florida.
Enough of the bullshit from our resident peanut-gallery. These are REAL BILLS, this is what JEA actually charges.
I'm sick of hearing this same crew claim JEA is the lowest rate in Florida, it's actually the highest. One of the highest anywhere, actually. Enough bullshit, either post up your own bills (with your name blacked out) so that we can do the math, or shut the hell up with these asinine arguments that don't reflect the facts. And certainly don't reflect the bills we all get in the mail every month...
Here is an excerpt from the Public Utility Commission of Ohio Electric Customer Bill of Rights
QuoteThe electric company may not charge you
a deposit of more than 130 percent of your
estimated average monthly bill for regulated
services. The deposit may be increased or lowered
after three consecutive billing periods if the
deposit you paid differs by 20 percent or more of
the amount that would have been required based
on the actual usage, while taking into account
possible seasonal changes in your usage.
If the company keeps your deposit for more
than six months, the company has to pay at least
3 percent interest on the deposit. After 12 months,
the company will review your account and
determine if the deposit should be returned.
If your service with the company is terminated,
either by your request or disconnection for
nonpayment, the company will apply the deposit
plus any interest accrued to the final bill. You will
receive a refund of your deposit for any amount
that exceeds the amount owed in the final bill.
http://www.puco.ohio.gov/emplibrary/files/media/Publications/Brochures/ (http://www.puco.ohio.gov/emplibrary/files/media/Publications/Brochures/Electric%20Customer%20Bill%20of%20Rights.pdf)
From the stories posted here, it sounds like JEA is taking this concept and perverting it into a collection of punitive damages from customers and effectively holding them hostage until it is paid.
These deposits are meant as a hedge against nonpayment from new customers with lower credit scores, they are not meant to be used as an enormous and punitive late fee. That's what the late fees and connection charges are for.
I woulld be more than happy to pay lower utility bills. Perhaps I may need to learn more...
Please verify... I have seen nothing... but maybe I do not have access to all the sources...
Quoteand every other media source have already confirmed that the JEA is taking very unusual steps for a publicly owned utility, and solely for the purposes of benefitting the bondholders.
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2011, 04:36:37 PM
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072707/met_187215932.shtml
so part of the jea bill is actually just taxes that the city adds on?
yes...and as explained on this site before, the contribution helps keep the City budget balanced....if I recall, it was somewhere close to $100 million....so without it, millage rates would likely be increased.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 04:55:38 PM
Ok, Tufsu, so since you've posted something that blows your own point out of the water (as usual) let's do the math, shall we? The incorrect rate comparison you posted shows that 1000kWh with JEA would cost $66.30, for an effective rate of $0.0663 p/kWh. Except that's not what JEA charges, is it?
hey Chris...I know you sometimes have a difficult time reading (and instead prefer to attack)....
But note that the Tallahassee comparison said "base rate"...you and I may very well pay more than that...depends on lolts of factors, such as peak usage.
Also note that your bill includes a non-taxable fuel charge of around $75...subtract that and now your kwh rate is around $0.068.
Quote from: Lunican on February 02, 2011, 05:35:36 PM
Here is an excerpt from the Public Utility Commission of Ohio Electric Customer Bill of Rights
QuoteThe electric company may not charge you
a deposit of more than 130 percent of your
estimated average monthly bill for regulated
services. The deposit may be increased or lowered
after three consecutive billing periods if the
deposit you paid differs by 20 percent or more of
the amount that would have been required based
on the actual usage, while taking into account
possible seasonal changes in your usage.
If the company keeps your deposit for more
than six months, the company has to pay at least
3 percent interest on the deposit. After 12 months,
the company will review your account and
determine if the deposit should be returned.
If your service with the company is terminated,
either by your request or disconnection for
nonpayment, the company will apply the deposit
plus any interest accrued to the final bill. You will
receive a refund of your deposit for any amount
that exceeds the amount owed in the final bill.
http://www.puco.ohio.gov/emplibrary/files/media/Publications/Brochures/ (http://www.puco.ohio.gov/emplibrary/files/media/Publications/Brochures/Electric%20Customer%20Bill%20of%20Rights.pdf)
From the stories posted here, it sounds like JEA is taking this concept and perverting it into a collection of punitive damages from customers and effectively holding them hostage until it is paid.
These deposits are meant as a hedge against nonpayment from new customers with lower credit scores, they are not meant to be used as an enormous and punitive late fee. That's what the late fees and connection charges are for.
I have to say... I sincerely appreciate the actual data that now appears to be flowing into this debate. This is 100% better than... "JEA sux". (they may... but now we will actually know why or why not...!)
Lunican... Please explain. Why only "new customers?". Why not existing customers who move frequently? Why not landlords who take rent and do not pay the bill. There are a myriad of "hedges" an entity such as JEA must hedge against.
I have to add... even Ock might say.... "Just cause they do it that way in Ohio... does not mean that is how we do it in Florida." What about Chicago? Im guessing the furnace is is working pretty hard these days. How is the Chicago utility dealing with non payment?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2011, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 04:55:38 PM
Ok, Tufsu, so since you've posted something that blows your own point out of the water (as usual) let's do the math, shall we? The incorrect rate comparison you posted shows that 1000kWh with JEA would cost $66.30, for an effective rate of $0.0663 p/kWh. Except that's not what JEA charges, is it?
hey Chris...I know you sometimes have a difficult time reading (and instead prefer to attack)....
But note that the Tallahassee comparison said "base rate"...you and I may very well pay more than that...depends on lolts of factors, such as peak usage.
Also note that your bill includes a non-taxable fuel charge of around $75...subtract that and now your kwh rate is around $0.068.
Why would I be interested in perpetuating JEA's B.S. by removing the fuel costs, taxes, and fees from the bill and then comparing that amount to other utilities' combined rates that include these items? My whole complaint, Tufsu, is that this is exactly what JEA is doing to claim (incorrectly) that it is the lowest rate in the state when it is actually the highest. Why would I complain about that and then do the same thing?
I'm doing what JEA doesn't do, but should be doing. And what other companies do. Which is to compare the combined rate / total cost to the other providers. JEA is, based on what I've seen, the highest combined rate of all the large utilities in the state. This is just simple math, divide out the actual rate by looking at my bills...thats what we're actually paying. They can publish whatever B.S. statistic they want, it still comes back to that's what we're actually paying. The bill's the bill, it doesn't lie. Divide the cost by the useage and that's your actual combined rate. Period. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 09:43:14 PM
Why would I be interested in perpetuating JEA's B.S. by removing the fuel costs, taxes, and fees from the bill and then comparing that amount to other utilities' combined rates that include these items?
so you can prove the rate comparison I provided from Tallahassee included all the extras for the other utlities?
You're claiming JEA is the highest in the state....while I'm sure JEA's own "propaganda" wouldn't want to show that, why would Tallahassee show JEA considerably cheaper than utilities in Gainesville and Orlando?
Oh wait...I answered my own question...here's Orlando's info....note the separate base charge and fuel charge.
http://www.ouc.com/en/residential/electric_and_water_rates/electric_rates.aspx
So in essence what you're saying is that when you advertise, you should just throw the big number out there and just let it fly?
When you purchase anything - there is a listed cost and an actual cost - do you ever see the actual cost in the Sunday paper? Hell no, and why should JEA or any other gov't agency do it. The bills are transparent, they're not hiding anything so I don't see what all the fuss is over what they say it costs and what you pay.
Back to another discussion we had on the courthouse regarding re-use and buying new - the listed cost of recycling is $0 but the actual cost ends up being more (in many cases) than if you would have purchased new, but the Green Men sold you on the $0.
I'm of the opinion that JEA is just the same. The point that keeps getting brough up is why don't they blow it all up and start fresh - yeah, the same train of though of JEA sux. Another point someone brought up is the lack of an actual competitor - I've got one question, "How is the competition going to get the power to your house?" For there to be competition, they would require infrastructure that's non-existant. So I think we can put that idea to bed as well.
Since we all agree that we hate paying the bills, I think that most of us realize that our electric bills are like taxes, we can stop paying them when we die or exit the grid.
I'm not interested in smoke and mirrors Tufsu, I'm comparing combined (actual) rates to combined (actual) rates. If JEA is raising their fees and surcharges, or raising the fuel surcharge, and then touting the base rate as being low when the combined rate is astronomical, what is this possibly accomplishing besides for misleading the public? I already looked at those OUC rates, and the combined rate is lower than JEA's $0.124 /kWh.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 09:54:16 PM
So in essence what you're saying is that when you advertise, you should just throw the big number out there and just let it fly?
When you purchase anything - there is a listed cost and an actual cost - do you ever see the actual cost in the Sunday paper? Hell no, and why should JEA or any other gov't agency do it. The bills are transparent, they're not hiding anything so I don't see what all the fuss is over what they say it costs and what you pay.
Back to another discussion we had on the courthouse regarding re-use and buying new - the listed cost of recycling is $0 but the actual cost ends up being more (in many cases) than if you would have purchased new, but the Green Men sold you on the $0.
I'm of the opinion that JEA is just the same. The point that keeps getting brough up is why don't they blow it all up and start fresh - yeah, the same train of though of JEA sux. Another point someone brought up is the lack of an actual competitor - I've got one question, "How is the competition going to get the power to your house?" For there to be competition, they would require infrastructure that's non-existant. So I think we can put that idea to bed as well.
Since we all agree that we hate paying the bills, I think that most of us realize that our electric bills are like taxes, we can stop paying them when we die or exit the grid.
This isn't a sleazy used car lot, where you have to spend an hour reading every letter of the paperwork so you can haggle over the dealer fee, destination fee, prep fee, detail fee, $600 pinstripes, etc. JEA is a large publicly owned monopoly, it shouldn't be engaging in used car lot'esque deceptive advertising, claiming its rates are the lowest when they're the highest.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 09:58:10 PM
I'm not interested in smoke and mirrors Tufsu, I'm comparing combined (actual) rates to combined (actual) rates. If JEA is raising their fees and surcharges, or raising the fuel surcharge, and then touting the base rate as being low when the combined rate is astronomical, what is this possibly accomplishing besides for misleading the public? I already looked at those OUC rates, and the combined rate is lower than JEA's $0.124 /kWh.
Really, because the bill you posted here is less than what you'd pay for the same service in Orlando - $243.07
Sorry, I guess someone had to do the math for you.
Edit - you saved $8.22 with JEA this month.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 10:02:44 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 09:58:10 PM
I'm not interested in smoke and mirrors Tufsu, I'm comparing combined (actual) rates to combined (actual) rates. If JEA is raising their fees and surcharges, or raising the fuel surcharge, and then touting the base rate as being low when the combined rate is astronomical, what is this possibly accomplishing besides for misleading the public? I already looked at those OUC rates, and the combined rate is lower than JEA's $0.124 /kWh.
Really, because the bill you posted here is less than what you'd pay for the same service in Orlando - $243.07
Sorry, I guess someone had to do the math for you.
Don't put your Mattel My First Calculator away yet, lol...might want to check that math again.
Because JEA is higher than OUC on its combined rate, as the figures plainly show had you bothered to read them.
I'll go one step further:
1k kwh @ 11.182 = 111.82
+
935 kwh @ 13.182 = 123.25
+
$8
=
$243.07
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 10:04:54 PM
Don't put your Mattel My First Calculator away yet, lol...might want to check that math again.
Because JEA is higher than OUC on its combined rate, as the figures plainly show had you bothered to read them.
I keep it next to my animal sounds reference catalog - spin & say.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 10:05:36 PM
I'll go one step further:
1k kwh @ 11.182 = 11.82
+
935 kwh @ 13.182 = 123.25
+
$8
=
$243.07
Right. OUC = $0.111 p/kWh. JEA = $0.124 p/kWh. Which one's higher? Told you not to put away that calculator yet.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 10:07:52 PM
Right. OUC = $0.111 p/kWh. JEA = $0.124 p/kWh. Which one's higher? Told you not to put away that calculator yet.
I keep coming up with .1256 for Orlando & .1214 for Jax.
Maybe you should borrow my calculator.
While you're trying to figure out how to right the ship, I think you should check your credit card invoices for those APR increases: X APR until your balance reaches Y
Or maybe your car lease paperwork: X per mile for Y miles, then Z after
Or maybe your local strip club: lap dances are $5 for the first two then everyone after that is $25
We know you only went to Solid Gold because of the $5 dollar lap dances, and now you want to shut 'em down because you feel hoodwinked when they started charging you $25. "Why didn't they just say they were $25, this is bullshit."
.....I think I'm done now.
Well Westsider, JEA itself admits to $0.1237 p/kWh;
http://www.jea.com/services/electric/rates_quarterly.asp
And Orlando is $0.11 as it plainly states here;
http://www.ouc.com/Libraries/OUCDocuments/res_er_ouc_rate_tariff.sflb.ashx
The document I just posted is the actual certified tariff rate they filed with the state, the sheet you posted is just an estimate on their website. The tariff rate is what they must charge by law. That Mattel calculator must need some new batteries.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 02, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
While you're trying to figure out how to right the ship, I think you should check your credit card invoices for those APR increases: X APR until your balance reaches Y
Or maybe your car lease paperwork: X per mile for Y miles, then Z after
Or maybe your local strip club: lap dances are $5 for the first two then everyone after that is $25
We know you only went to Solid Gold because of the $5 dollar lap dances, and now you want to shut 'em down because you feel hoodwinked when they started charging you $25. "Why didn't they just say they were $25, this is bullshit."
.....I think I'm done now.
I got burned on excess mileage on a lease 10 years ago and woudn't lease a car again. I've just bought everything outright since then. Your strip club example made me chuckle though, I gotta admit you do have a funny sense of humor. That certainly comes in handy when the JEA bill comes in the mail.
OK, so we're both correct, in a wierd twisted way.
I'm basing this off of your bill BTW,
If you would just go to sleep and lay off the internet porn and hot showers at night, you might keep you usage down to 1000 kwh or below - then you WOULD ONLY be paying the 11.182 per.
But since you have the demons that you feel the need to exorcise nightly, then you runneth over the limit set by OUC at 1000 and now they get to stick it to you at 13.182 per for 935 kwh's
In your reality (mine too) it's cheaper to pay the higher Jacksonville rate - because there's no way in hell that you or I will ever be below 1000 kwh in a month.
JEA could take some simple steps to address most of these issues:
Clear and concise billing statements, actually reading the meter and charging ONLY for actual usage
Reasonable Deposits- Banking regulations have recently changed on how much a bank can charge you for a overdrawn account, mortgage fees (also regulated) provide a 15 day grace period with a late fee chargeable, but not three months worth of mortgage payments due as a deposit and certainly not immediate foreclosure proceedings because you missed one month (unlike disconnection at JEA for non payment of deposits)
Clearly delineate on bills with something like "your contribution to the city coffers" JAX should stop touting how cheap their taxes are then hide them all over the place!
Billing practices need to be looked at and regulated similar to the banking/mortgage industry (in CA it is, including increases each year, since there is no competition). Everyone likes to slam them for being money Hungary parasites, but some seem to think that is perfectly fine for a public utilities- huh?
even if JEA did all that, people would still complain about the rates....like they do in every community I've lived in!
Personally i'm sick of the waist i see everyday...about a week ago my neighbor was having his water cut off..the man arrived and sat for 45 min in front of the house..got out..did his thing..then returned to sit for another 25 min..and then left...in that time he had called and made the overlooked payment...it took 6 more hours without water for the water man to return...it took sitting in front of the house another hour to turn the water back on...which is only the turn of a knob in the front yard and takes about 15 seconds to do...this is just a taste of the waiste...
Agree Tufsu, everyone is going to complain about power, just like gas for their cars. But the cost of a good is a very different arguement. When gas was $5 a gallon I like everyone else was not happy about the cost- but I could do something, drive less, make multiple stops in one trip etc. With JEA's billing I can not use my heaters and use my fireplaces instead and still get a $1,000 bill. With taxes and franchise fee's and minimum payments due limit I still owe almost $200 a month before usage. I do not pay that at the pump, or anywhere else I can think of. IMO this is two completely different complaints.
Looks like the electric company in Dallas is facing some public outcry.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/02/03/why-was-cowboys-stadium-exempt-from-blackouts/
Again as public employees..jea workers should'nt make over the city median wage...it only makes sense to me to limit the wages of city workers...i don't know why but it makes sense to me. The wages alone for jea workers is crazy.
I do! Well at least I do now. We moved to BFE - WGV about a year and a half ago, and joined the good victims of Florida Power and Light... Nuff said! Everyone complaining about JEA should try it.
"Please God, get us back into DUVAL and I'll never complain about JEA again."
"I'll never complain about JEA again."
"I'll never complain about JEA again."
"I'll never complain about JEA again."
"I'll never complain about JEA again."
"I'll never complain about JEA again."
OCKLAWAHA
Just to compare, who are the best power companies in the country? Can someone do an article or just a small post like MetroJacksonville does when comparing Jacksonville with various different cities around the world?
Quote from: cityimrov on February 03, 2011, 08:55:05 AM
Just to compare, who are the best power companies in the country? Can someone do an article or just a small post like MetroJacksonville does when comparing Jacksonville with various different cities around the world?
There's a direct comparison to Orlando in this thread. We used Chris' electric bill for comparison and it's cheaper in Orlando if you stay under 1000 khw per month, once you exceed that the low rate jumps up about 18%-19%.
With his usage, he saved about $8 here in J'ville.
JEA is actually very well managed..........for the bondholders. They also do a better job than most delivering our utilities too. Cost? How much is within their control?
You think Florida Power & Light is bad, you should have had to deal with Tampa Electric Company. They might be better now, but twenty years ago you might as well have been in a third world country as Tampa.
I think that would be a great idea... perhaps we will find out what they are stealing from us.
Some of it... the bank owns most... :)
What is the investment capitol for? Will you be improving my house?
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:19:23 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:15:39 AM
Some of it... the bank owns most... :)
Well you wouldnt mind if I used your house in order to leverage up some investment capital would you?
You can keep the deed and all, but you won't be able to take out any equity loans or modify your mortgage until Im done borrowing your house.
Fact is, I really would like to improve my bottom line, and using your house would seriously help me out. Im not going to pay you for using it, nor will I share any of my new profits with you, but if I lose money, you might have to pay higher taxes. Also, Im not going to tell you what Im doing with the money I make from your house.
Sound good to you?
LMAO, you hit the nail on the head with JEA's deposit policy.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
What is the investment capitol for? Will you be improving my house?
No he'll just make money off it, you can't use your house while he has it, he doesn't have to tell you what he's doing with it, and he'll give it back to you whenever (or if at all) he feels like it. Sound good?
This is what JEA does with your money.
Does the money come back to me? Do I have an agreement that I get a return for your use of my house?
So... for simple guys like me...
Who are these shadowy "investors"?
How much money did they "borrow"?
Is/was there some kind of contract/agreement?
Is this illegal?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 09:32:57 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:28:39 AM
What is the investment capitol for? Will you be improving my house?
No he'll just make money off it, you can't use your house while he has it, he doesn't have to tell you what he's doing with it, and he'll give it back to you whenever (or if at all) he feels like it. Sound good?
This is what JEA does with your money.
Keeping in theme: Stephen also had a sign posted in his yard stating that if BT walked in his yard more than once, then Stephen would have the option to take BT's house. If BT stays the hell out of Stephen's yard, then Stephen would have no reason to take his house.
But times were tough, so BT had to take the shortcut through Stephens yard, so rather tan face the wrath of Stephen, BT picked up the phone and made a yard crossing arrangement with Stephen so that he had permission to do so this month. This went on for months until finally BT didn't have to go through Stephens yard anyomre, but a simple phone call prevented Stephen from ever having to take BT's house.
I was hoping for something more sinister actually...
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:51:45 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:50:43 AM
I was hoping for something more sinister actually...
I didnt mean that post to be an answer to your question.
The explanations provided in the article for the surpluses seem reasonable at first glance.
Why does this...
QuoteJEA follows financial practices that ensure: the
security of the bondholders’ investments; the
ability to borrow funds at the lowest possible
cost; and an annual contribution to the City of
Jacksonville.
not jibe with this?
QuoteIt will take a class action suit to decide whether or not it was illegal because of the byzantine accounting of the organization, but it is definitely against the mandate of the JEA charter.
Just trying to understand...
Based on the article you posted on the surplus, I'm gathering that you disagree with them keeping a surplus at all, that it should be divided up among the customers.
You may not have to buy gas at the pump, but a lot of us do. Those prices are based on the current market price of crude. They may have a surplus of 500k gallons that was paid for when barrels were $65 - Today, the barrels are trading for $105 (the numbers are made up) so the price we pay at the pump goes up to reflect that. It doesn't come down nearly as fast, but we pay for the volatility of the market from day to day.
Now imagine if JEA were to do that!
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 10:00:34 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:57:16 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:51:45 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 09:50:43 AM
I was hoping for something more sinister actually...
I didnt mean that post to be an answer to your question.
The explanations provided in the article for the surpluses seem reasonable at first glance.
Its not the fact that they had surpluses.
According to the spirit of the Charter, the surpluses are supposed to go back into the general fund to lower the cost of energy for the consumers.
In this particular incident, the director is saying, "well we were going to spend that on an outside investment that fell through, but we are going to keep the money and raise everyone's rates anyways, because we want to buy some other things in the future. We arent sure what those are, but we'll know when we see them."
Its completely contrary to the spirit of the Charter.
They said they were going to need it for future power plants right?
Quote"Even though we won't go forward with the Taylor Energy Plant, we will have to build other plants," Dickenson said.
When asked if the huge increase that customers are paying to cool their homes this summer would pay for the other projects and whether JEA is bringing in more money than ever before, JEA said yes, but added that it's costing much more to keep the electricity on.
"It actually cost more money in the summertime for our fuel," Dickenson said.
I'm assuming this is the charter that you're referring to:
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:55:08 AM
http://www.jea.com/about/pub/downloads/treepowe.pdf
QuoteJEA follows financial practices that ensure: the
security of the bondholders’ investments; the
ability to borrow funds at the lowest possible
cost; and an annual contribution to the City of
Jacksonville.
From the meeting notes:
Quote
2. In responce to Mrs. ?Whatley's December 2009 request, Debra Gras handed out an Office of General Counsel review and opinion memo on guidelines and limitations in the JEA Charter regarding additional methos of raising revenue..... Advertising on jea.com was also generally discussed.
and....
Quote
3. Current JEA credit ratings were discussed......
How are either of these not 'in the spirit of the charter?' Keep the credit rating up so the bondholders make more, and find alternative streams of revenue to increase their 'surpluses.'
Mybe rather than chastising me, you should take an e-course in business management and re-read some of your own 'contrary to your own point' postings. I hear the University of Phoenix has a good one. ::)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 03, 2011, 10:03:19 AM
Based on the article you posted on the surplus, I'm gathering that you disagree with them keeping a surplus at all, that it should be divided up among the customers.
You may not have to buy gas at the pump, but a lot of us do. Those prices are based on the current market price of crude. They may have a surplus of 500k gallons that was paid for when barrels were $65 - Today, the barrels are trading for $105 (the numbers are made up) so the price we pay at the pump goes up to reflect that. It doesn't come down nearly as fast, but we pay for the volatility of the market from day to day.
Now imagine if JEA were to do that!
JEA does worse.
At least at the gas station, you have free market competition, which keeps prices in line. And when you buy gas, you pay for the gas you buy. You don't have to pay for the gas and then get 20 more things tacked onto your bill to pay for the tanks at the gas station, or the new pumps they're planning to buy 20 years from now, only to decide they didn't want the new pumps after all but they're going to keep your money anywhow, and you don't have to pay for all of that despite their making a hefty profit on their sales as well. You just pay for your gas and go.
JEA is ridiculous, and your arguments in defense of their policies are running out of gas. Surely you must realize by now that their policies are abnormal for a utility company, and that their treatment of customers is directly contrary to their charter? Why are you defending the indefensible?
QuoteThey were changed to remove the obligation to the public, and I am hunting down a paper copy of the old charters.
Sounds good... then a comparison can be done.
QuoteInterestingly, the City Council, by statute has total legal authority over the JEA.
They could put an end to this deposit practice with a simple vote.
Why does the city council not do this? Let me ask again... Why is JEA's deposit practice more onerous than other utilities? Is there a side by side comparison out there?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 10:28:46 AM
JEA does worse.
Yeah, but. They saved you money over Orlando didn't they?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 10:28:46 AMAt least at the gas station, you have free market competition, which keeps prices in line. And when you buy gas, you pay for the gas you buy. You don't have to pay for the gas and then get 20 more things tacked onto your bill to pay for the tanks at the gas station, or the new pumps they're planning to buy 20 years from now, only to decide they didn't want the new pumps after all but they're going to keep your money anywhow, and you don't have to pay for all of that despite their making a hefty profit on their sales as well. You just pay for your gas and go.
Yeah, but. They funnel all of the taxes through their price, just like JEA - difference is, you don't see a schedule at the pump listing the amount of all the taxes that you're actually paying. Plus, the price you see at the pump reflects the trading price of crude oil that day - stuff that they will have to buy in the future - not what it costs them.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 10:28:46 AMJEA is ridiculous, and your arguments in defense of their policies are running out of gas. Surely you must realize by now that their policies are abnormal for a utility company, and that their treatment of customers is directly contrary to their charter? Why are you defending the indefensible?
Thier policies ad practices seem to be the norm rather than the exception - based on all of the information that I've read here. All that I've seen charge an initial deposit and a delinquency deposit. All pass the taxes directly through to the customer. All have a price that is pretty much in line with the others. Seems like SOP, now whether you agree or disagree with their policies is another fact altogether, but for the most part - it's all fairly transparent.
All I've seen to the contrary are stories - no facts, just stories. The bill you posted actually proved that JEA is cheaper than Orlando - that was a fact.
Found this right on the JEA website...
QuoteJEA's governing body consists of a seven-member Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council. JEA is not subject to state regulation, except for certain environmental and health matters, power plant location, electric safety and electric rate structure matters. JEA’s Board of Directors may be contacted via e-mail at jeaboard@jea.com.
Looks like they ARE subject to state regulations after all...
http://www.jea.com/about/index.asp
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 10:53:29 AM
Probably because most of the Councilpeople arent aware of this particular power. Maybe you should tell them how much smarter you are because you figured all this out, and none of them had a clue
Every year the JEA shares some of their ill gotten profit with the Council. Wow! Proof? Oh you probably mean the taxes that JEA charges us instead of the city, so what? Pick your poison
I would be willing to bet that the majority of the Council is unaware that this is required by the State Charter, since they dress it up as a gift every year. Nonsensical. What are you even saying?
Lord knows, to tell TUFSU tell it, they are handing over grandma's engagement ring to the infidels when in fact this is a prerequisite for their existence.
Also the Council has a dirty little hand in the pocket as well. In order to pretend that they werent going to raise millage rate taxes, the council simply raised the rate on the JEA, which immediately passed on the cost to the same taxpayers. as stated above - pick your poison.
I guess we're doomed either way, City's going to hike up taxes, JEA's going to raise rates every year, Unemplyment is at it's highest in years, global warming just caused us the coldest winter on record and Charlie Sheen's shenanigans is going to cost me new episodes of Two and a Half Men. I guess its time to start the revolution.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
.....go dawgs!
That's pretty insulting. If you're going to mock, then do it correctly - Go Tigers (Clemson, not Auburn - which would be War Eagles anyhow, but I'm sure you already knew that)
Should be some good info here... JEA 2009 anual report
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/fc2aa9f8#
I'm sure this is probably old news, but there is on article on MSNBC.com listing U.S. cities with the worst drinking water... Guess who's part of the top 10?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41354370/ns/business-oil_and_energy/
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 11:11:11 AM
given the intelligence of your posts, I assumed you were a Georgia fan, my apologies. I didnt realize that Tigers fans grads were on an equal footing. I will take note.
I had to fix that for you.
JEA data jackpot! PDF heaven! Rules and regs, Annual reports, Quarterly Analysis of Financial Performance, Tarrifs, Bonds, water quality,.... even board meeting minutes!
http://www.jea.com/about/pub/index.asp#board
No facts? Several have posted either the contents of their bills or their actual bill. So it is completely acceptable to pull into BP and put in 5 gallons of gas but be charged for 15 because that is the minimum they expect you to use each fill-up?
It is OK that the pump at BP says you added 15 gallons and charges you for the same, yet your car only holds 12 gallons and your gauge says you only have a 3/4 a tank?
Using the pump analogy you can plainly see the issue. We as consumers should not have to pay for something we are not getting, nor using. If I use 600 gallons of water why should I pay for 1,000 gallons? I don't pay for a full tank of gas when I do not need a full tank of gas.
If I am late by 5 days on my car payment I would pay a late fee of $45, not three car payments as a deposit. The bank would not come and boot my car because I was late 5 days.
Why should JEA?
It really is common sense, I am suprised some are having such a hard time seeing that.
QuoteIf I am late by 5 days on my car payment I would pay a late fee of $45, not three car payments as a deposit. The bank would not come and boot my car because I was late 5 days.
Why should JEA?
JEA also charges a late fee... and they are required to charge a deposit if you have trouble paying your obligations on time.
QuoteThe JEA has a formula that gives all customers 1,000 points, but they lose 100 points for each bounced check and another 100 points if the become two months behind and their power is shut off. If a customer's points drop below 800, the utility is assess a deposit.
The reason may be... and this is just conjecture... Your car can be repossesed, your home can be forclosed, collateral can be confiscated if you fail to pay on various other loans.
In the case of electricity and water... It has already been used. They cannot reclaim what has already been used. You are purchasing water and electricity on credit.
It is common practice for utilities through the entire US.
Here is a Sacramento utility...
http://www.smud.org/en/residential/rates/Documents/Rule%202-06.pdf
QuoteDeposit Required Where Credit Not Established or Maintained
Where a customer or an applicant for service does not satisfactorily establish and maintain credit in accordance with Sections E and F, a deposit may be required as security for the payment of bills. The District may, in accordance with Rule and Regulation 11, discontinue service if customer fails to make such deposit as requested by the District. The amount of such deposit for residential and commercial customers shall be the greater of 1) twice the highest estimated monthly bill or twice the highest actual customer bill, or 2) twice the average residential class monthly bill for the preceding three years, rounded to the nearest
$10, as determined and set annually by the District.
Bridge Troll for the 457'th time, JEA is not required to charge a deposit at all. They ARE NOT STATE REGULATED.
None of these rules you've been randomly posting have any bearing on JEA. JEA routinely exceeds the state deposit guidelines anyway. Would you like me to start posting the rules and regulations for utilities in Indonesia in this thread and pretending they apply to JEA? Because that's what you're doing.
This is exactly what you sound like; I mean this scene was written expressly for you and Westsider;
http://www.youtube.com/v/e1fKzw05Q5A
You might be wrong Chris...
QuoteFound this right on the JEA website...
JEA's governing body consists of a seven-member Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council. JEA is not subject to state regulation, except for certain environmental and health matters, power plant location, electric safety and electric rate structure matters. JEA’s Board of Directors may be contacted via e-mail at jeaboard@jea.com.
Looks like they ARE subject to state regulations after all...
http://www.jea.com/about/index.asp
I agree Stephen... and I think Chris and yourself are the perfect pair to begin a nationwide reformation of utility deposit practices. I showed where a very similar utility in California has a practice very similar to JEA... It is common practice and you can bet it has withstood court challenges.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:13:29 PM
You might be wrong Chris...
QuoteFound this right on the JEA website...
JEA's governing body consists of a seven-member Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council. JEA is not subject to state regulation, except for certain environmental and health matters, power plant location, electric safety and electric rate structure matters. JEA’s Board of Directors may be contacted via e-mail at jeaboard@jea.com.
Looks like they ARE subject to state regulations after all...
http://www.jea.com/about/index.asp
Yeah, except I'm not wrong. Here's the State itself saying it doesn't regulate the rates of municipally owned utilities;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 02:04:12 PM
Well, since someone mentioned BridgeTroll's rather troubled relationship with the facts...
Direct from the Florida Public Utilities Commission;
QuoteWhat the PSC Does Not Regulate:
-Rates and adequacy of services provided by municipally
owned and rural cooperative electric utilities, except for
safety oversight.
-Electrical wiring inside the customer’s building
-Taxes on the electric bill
-Physical placement of transmission and distribution
lines
-Damage claims
-Right of way
-Physical placement or relocation of utility poles
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/publications/consumer/brochure/When_to_Call_the_PSC.pdf
Seems like BT doesn't research his claims very well. The truth is that the state does not have the authority to regulate JEA's billing or rates, and accordingly we have no state protection when dealing with JEA on billing issues or deposit requirements. They can do whatever they damn well please, and that's exactly what they do.
How in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Obviously, we already covered all of that back on page 3 of this thread, and you already went down in flames on this point. You're certainly welcome to keep re-arguing it, I'll just keep re-posting the docs from the State's own PUC demonstrating you're wrong, Fine by me, but you're starting to look a bit silly.
Why not a million dollars? Looks like it is regulated!
This looks similar to the JEA policy...
http://www.smud.org/en/residential/rates/Documents/Rule%202-06.pdf
QuoteDeposit Required Where Credit Not Established or Maintained
Where a customer or an applicant for service does not satisfactorily establish and maintain credit in accordance with Sections E and F, a deposit may be required as security for the payment of bills. The District may, in accordance with Rule and Regulation 11, discontinue service if customer fails to make such deposit as requested by the District. The amount of such deposit for residential and commercial customers shall be the greater of 1) twice the highest estimated monthly bill or twice the highest actual customer bill, or 2) twice the average residential class monthly bill for the preceding three years, rounded to the nearest
$10, as determined and set annually by the District.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 02:20:45 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:13:29 PM
You might be wrong Chris...
QuoteFound this right on the JEA website...
JEA's governing body consists of a seven-member Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council. JEA is not subject to state regulation, except for certain environmental and health matters, power plant location, electric safety and electric rate structure matters. JEA’s Board of Directors may be contacted via e-mail at jeaboard@jea.com.
Looks like they ARE subject to state regulations after all...
http://www.jea.com/about/index.asp
Yeah, except I'm not wrong. Here's the State itself saying it doesn't regulate the rates of municipally owned utilities;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 02:04:12 PM
Well, since someone mentioned BridgeTroll's rather troubled relationship with the facts...
Direct from the Florida Public Utilities Commission;
QuoteWhat the PSC Does Not Regulate:
-Rates and adequacy of services provided by municipally
owned and rural cooperative electric utilities, except for
safety oversight.
-Electrical wiring inside the customer’s building
-Taxes on the electric bill
-Physical placement of transmission and distribution
lines
-Damage claims
-Right of way
-Physical placement or relocation of utility poles
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/publications/consumer/brochure/When_to_Call_the_PSC.pdf
Seems like BT doesn't research his claims very well. The truth is that the state does not have the authority to regulate JEA's billing or rates, and accordingly we have no state protection when dealing with JEA on billing issues or deposit requirements. They can do whatever they damn well please, and that's exactly what they do.
How in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Obviously, we already covered all of that back on page 3 of this thread, and you already went down in flames on this point. You're certainly welcome to keep re-arguing it, I'll just keep re-posting the docs from the State's own PUC demonstrating you're wrong, Fine by me, but you're starting to look a bit silly.
Looks like there is a conflict between the two sites. I suggest you find a clearer document.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 02:28:58 PM
This is why no one takes republicans seriously anymore. Because whenever it comes to bilking the taxpayers, the supposed 'conservatives' are the first ones to the front of the line demanding the right to be victimized by fraudulent government spending.
Thats your reply?
http://www.smud.org/en/residential/rates/Documents/Rule%202-06.pdf
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:31:20 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 02:20:45 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:13:29 PM
You might be wrong Chris...
QuoteFound this right on the JEA website...
JEA's governing body consists of a seven-member Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council. JEA is not subject to state regulation, except for certain environmental and health matters, power plant location, electric safety and electric rate structure matters. JEA’s Board of Directors may be contacted via e-mail at jeaboard@jea.com.
Looks like they ARE subject to state regulations after all...
http://www.jea.com/about/index.asp
Yeah, except I'm not wrong. Here's the State itself saying it doesn't regulate the rates of municipally owned utilities;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 02:04:12 PM
Well, since someone mentioned BridgeTroll's rather troubled relationship with the facts...
Direct from the Florida Public Utilities Commission;
QuoteWhat the PSC Does Not Regulate:
-Rates and adequacy of services provided by municipally
owned and rural cooperative electric utilities, except for
safety oversight.
-Electrical wiring inside the customer’s building
-Taxes on the electric bill
-Physical placement of transmission and distribution
lines
-Damage claims
-Right of way
-Physical placement or relocation of utility poles
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/publications/consumer/brochure/When_to_Call_the_PSC.pdf
Seems like BT doesn't research his claims very well. The truth is that the state does not have the authority to regulate JEA's billing or rates, and accordingly we have no state protection when dealing with JEA on billing issues or deposit requirements. They can do whatever they damn well please, and that's exactly what they do.
How in his extensive research on the business practices of "every public utility" could he have missed this?
Obviously, we already covered all of that back on page 3 of this thread, and you already went down in flames on this point. You're certainly welcome to keep re-arguing it, I'll just keep re-posting the docs from the State's own PUC demonstrating you're wrong, Fine by me, but you're starting to look a bit silly.
Looks like there is a conflict between the two sites. I suggest you find a clearer document.
You're starting to sound just plain dumb...
Last I checked, the State government trumps local government, no? My documentation is perfectly clear, and is directly from the state. Yours is just from the JEA website, which hardly has the authority to trump the State government. Surely being the expert consititutional scholar that you are, you would know that?
Seems like you're the one that needs clearer documentation. Of course you won't find any, since we both know I am right. So start Googling.
Click here Chris... :)
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/utilities/mcd/index.aspx
Do a search for companies regulated by the Public Service Commision.
About two thirds of the way down 3 letters will appear. Care to guess those three letters?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 03, 2011, 02:53:41 PM
Click here Chris... :)
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/utilities/mcd/index.aspx
Do a search for companies regulated by the Public Service Commision.
About two thirds of the way down 3 letters will appear. Care to guess those three letters?
The PSC doesn't regulate JEA's rates or customer deposits. They regulate JEA's interconnect agreements with other utilities, and aspects of the generation business that affect other utilities. They also review the utility's hurricane/emergency management plans. A quick search of the PSC's history with JEA (which you clearly did not bother to perform) would have shown you this;
http://www.psc.state.fl.us/utilities/mcd/associateddockets.aspx?compcode=EM862&docType=closed&count=21
Or, don't just take my word for it, why don't you post anything from the PSC saying they regulate JEA rates?
(Hint: They don't)
I concede.(PSC rate regulation) This link makes it clear... at least to me.
http://www.floridapsc.com/consumers/complaints/index.aspx
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
my reply to what?
You provided an example of another utility which is doing to same dishonest thing for the same dishonest reasons, and you seem to be saying that it justifies it.
I suppose that its ok for me to mug you as long as I can reasonably demonstrate that I followed the same basic procedure as a similar mugging in a similar neighborhood.
Like I said, Volunteer Victims social mixer at the Tea Party Express. Westsider is bringing the PBR and Bridge Troll will bring the cheetos.
Here's one for you smart guy: Find one, just one example of a utility company that does business in a way that would meet your esteemed approval. I'm sure there's one actual golden nugget out there amongst all the other gold covered shit-piles.
Anyone been to this site?
http://www.publicpower.com/flutilities.shtml
QuoteRegulation
Municipal utilities are governed either by a local city commission or by an elected or appointed utility authority. Municipal utilities are subject to all the state's laws regarding public bodies, including open meetings law, open records laws, public bidding laws. No other utility invites as much public input or operates in such an open, democratic manner. Open, accessible, governance is one reason municipals are also known as "public power" utilities.The following utilities are governed as a utility authority by an appointed board:
•KUA - Kissimmee Utility Authority
•New Smyrna Beach Utilities Commission
•JEA
•OUC - Orlando Utilities Commission
•Keys Energy
Competitive Costs
Municipal utilities have, on average, some of the lowest rates in the state. Click Here for Rate Comparison.
http://www.publicpower.com/electricrates.shtml
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 03:46:05 PM
Well crapfire, Redneck. That would sure beat taking a little responsibility for the management of the Utility that we own wouldnt it?
Hey, at the Double V (Volunteer Victims) Picnic and Parade, make sure that the BBQ sauce is the good mustardy kind! It will help you get over the taste of those clean picked bones.
Well crapfire, SD. So what JEA management responsibilitie have you taken on? Or do you just enjoy hiding behind your keyboard and claiming injustice and malfeasance by all corporations. Because, genius, you own as much stake in this fiasco as I do, yet I play along and you keep crying wolf. While your
comebacks heartfelt opinions bullshit drivel seems to infer that you actually do or know something more than you do, it's still just drivel. Because you're even more-so to blame for the problems we share becasue you've taken the first step and admitted there's actually one to begin with while I continue to get drunk off the kool-aid.
I am not against reasonable deposits, I think the guesstimate bills we get are not valid for estimating two months usage for a deposit. I beleive paying for a full tank of gas each time I go to BP regardless of what I already have in my tank is BS and no one would stand for that.
Cutting peoples power for not paying a deposit is not charging for what the actually use, but I guess since JEA charges whatever the flip they want no matter what you actually use and that is OK with ya'll.....
Not sure if this is what happened to you but many utilities are going there...
Google this... levelized/average billing
Don't really care, you should not be charged for what you are not using...who will start doing this next?
Google...
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:00:31 AM
Redneck. Considering that many of us still have the old mechanical meters, which simply gauge the amount of kilowatt hours used, how exactly do you propose that the JEA knows whether or not you were using power at 'peak' or 'offpeak' times. How exactly do you get charged the cheaper rate?
Here's your answer bright guy that knows OHhhhhh so much - Unless you make a formal request and apply for RTOD (Residential Time of Day for all of us not names Stephen Dare), you're not being charged a variable rate. As of June 2010, the standard rate is:
QuoteRate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
but if you think that the TOD Metering is the way to go, then your fee schedule is as follows:
QuoteRate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
Both services charge an additionsl $.01 per kwh for every hour above 2750 in the form of a conservation charge.
These are facts that you can check yourself, but I'm sure with your paranoia, you probably find it really difficult in doing actual research, you might prove yourself wrong and think that THEY actually got you.
So tell us again Mr. Manswers, "How do all of the Utility companies in America operate in basically the same way and you're one of the few that thinks that their modis operadi is somehow illegal, immoral or a combination of the two? How much do you add to your bill every month to help those less fortunate than you? What do you actually do to fix the issues that you see in YOUR company?
BTW, I don't expect an answer on this because any response you make won't further your cause.
On a side note, my answers are, 1.) I don't care, this is how business is done, 2.)Zero, they can take care of themselves, 3.)Nothing, because I don't see a problem. Oh yeah, I don't say one thing here and do another either. Do you?
Looks like my estimates were high on JEA customers and deposits. I have since looked at the JEA site and found on page 56 of the 2009 Annual Report that the total deposits on hand from customers at the end of 2009 was $281,189,000. This is up from $65,183,000 at the end of 2008. The year 2007 ended with deposits of $240,567,000. I hope I’ve interpreted the tables correctly. I over estimated the number of customers in my earlier blog --I had estimated the deposits to be around $600,000,000 or so. Sorry about my wild estimates.
I don’t mind paying for the JEA service as long as I believe the JEA system is reasonably efficient in all respects, and is not engaging in obscene bonuses and corrupt payouts to vendors and contractors. The online Annual Reports are humongous and difficult for me. I hope the JEA monster is audited occasionally by a responsible entity with ability and integrity.
Give a man a fish, and you can feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he will starve to death while he prays for a fish.
So $300,000,000 in excess cash for a local utility just in deposits isn't excessive? Lol....
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 03, 2011, 07:35:31 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:00:31 AM
Redneck. Considering that many of us still have the old mechanical meters, which simply gauge the amount of kilowatt hours used, how exactly do you propose that the JEA knows whether or not you were using power at 'peak' or 'offpeak' times. How exactly do you get charged the cheaper rate?
Here's your answer bright guy that knows OHhhhhh so much - Unless you make a formal request and apply for RTOD (Residential Time of Day for all of us not names Stephen Dare), you're not being charged a variable rate. As of June 2010, the standard rate is:
QuoteRate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
but if you think that the TOD Metering is the way to go, then your fee schedule is as follows:
QuoteRate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
Both services charge an additionsl $.01 per kwh for every hour above 2750 in the form of a conservation charge.
These are facts that you can check yourself, but I'm sure with your paranoia, you probably find it really difficult in doing actual research, you might prove yourself wrong and think that THEY actually got you.
So tell us again Mr. Manswers, "How do all of the Utility companies in America operate in basically the same way and you're one of the few that thinks that their modis operadi is somehow illegal, immoral or a combination of the two? How much do you add to your bill every month to help those less fortunate than you? What do you actually do to fix the issues that you see in YOUR company?
BTW, I don't expect an answer on this because any response you make won't further your cause.
On a side note, my answers are, 1.) I don't care, this is how business is done, 2.)Zero, they can take care of themselves, 3.)Nothing, because I don't see a problem. Oh yeah, I don't say one thing here and do another either. Do you?
Westsider, just because you don't elect to have a special meter installed doesn't mean they don't calculate out your peak and off-peak usage based on a computer algorithm. Actually for most of us the entire bill is generated by an algorithm that estimates usage, they have laid most of the meter readers off.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 08:45:21 PM
so, by your own explanation, the JEA advertises that it charges near the least expensive rate in the market, except that the only people who get charged that rate are people who take the time to apply for it and have special meters installed?
And it took you all day to find an answer that blows your entire argument right out of the water, except that you are too tipsy, stu, lacking in irony to realize this?
Awesome.
Whatever Steven.
You pay a higher monthly service fee and a higher rate during the peak hours. You can borrow my Mattel calculator to do the math.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
Westsider, just because you don't elect to have a special meter installed doesn't mean they don't calculate out your peak and off-peak usage based on a computer algorithm. Actually for most of us the entire bill is generated by an algorithm that estimates usage, they have laid most of the meter readers off.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying show me. That goldmine of PDFs that BT gave us has pretty much everything you need to research JEA. There are several different formulas for figuring taxes, energy spikes (for x-rays, welders, etc.) and others, but I didn't come across any general usage formula.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:15:50 PM\
Actually, I wouldnt dream of depriving you of the opportunity to practice arithmetic. Not in light of your underwhelming mastery of it.
More drivel. Stick with fiction, your mastery of the english language paints pictures, but you big words and colorful metaphors can't hide your bullshit on this subject.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:29:40 PM
But one doesnt need either 'big words' or 'colorful metaphors' to speak eloquently on the subject of your dismal math skills. One just needs a 'quote' button.
You'll have to refresh my memory as to which 'dismal math skills' you're referencing. It's all in a PBR haze at the moment, wait, I can't see a thing, you're brilliance is blinding........
I have a better idea! Instead of requoting my math that proves Chris' electric bill is lower here than if he lived in Orlando, why don't you requote something fact based about your theory that JEA is doing nothing but scamming everyone and has been for years and is planning to do for years to come. That's what I'd like to see. Bring out the 'Hearsay Diaries'
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 09:42:07 PM
Except that Chris printed his actual bill, which proved that it was um...higher.
Than what? The base number that JEA starts with - 6.334 - you mean this...
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 02, 2011, 04:55:38 PM
Ok, Tufsu, so since you've posted something that blows your own point out of the water (as usual) let's do the math, shall we? The incorrect rate comparison you posted shows that 1000kWh with JEA would cost $66.30, for an effective rate of $0.0663 p/kWh. Except that's not what JEA charges, is it?
They tell you that. It's a base number. You seem to be a smart guy, but your failure to acknowledge facts astounds me. You'd rather retort with 'Go Dawgs' and other such bullshit than just stand down. Here, I don't want you to actually have to do anything:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 03, 2011, 07:35:31 PM
Rate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
So genius, the big bad corp has everything available for you to see, being that it's a public company and all, you just choose to spit bullshit rather than face the facts. I can keep this up all night, the numbers don't lie. I do need your help with something, Steven, what is an eloquent way of saying, "Scoreboard?"
Oh wait, nevermind, I think that works just fine.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 08:47:02 PM
So $300,000,000 in excess cash for a local utility just in deposits isn't excessive? Lol....
do you have any idea how much non-profits are recommended to have in reserve?
nope...just asking a question
Glad they have so many reserves, perhaps they can start cleaning the water they charge us a minimum usage no matter what our true usage is, or that it is polluted as hell.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41354370
10 U.S. cities with the worst drinking water
Here's that list, in descending order, with the city's water utility in parenthesis:
10.) Jacksonville, Fla. (JEA)
Located on the northeast coast of Florida, Jacksonville is the state's largest city. According to EWG, 23 different toxic chemicals were found in Jacksonville's water supply. The chemicals most frequently discovered in high volumes were trihalomethanes, which consist of four different cleaning byproducts â€" one of which is chloroform. Many trihalomethanes are believed to be carcinogenic. Over the five-year testing period, unsafe levels of trihalomethanes were detected during each of the 32 months of testing, and levels deemed illegal by the EPA were detected in 12 of those months. During at least one testing period, trihalomethane levels were measured at nearly twice the EPA legal limit. Chemicals like arsenic and lead were also detected at levels exceeding health guidelines
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2011, 11:01:07 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 03, 2011, 10:57:43 PM
nope...just asking a question
cool. If you know the answer, Im very curious myself, and would like to know the context of your question. It will be nice to chat about something besides football. Lord knows, I like hearing about the Dawgs as much as the next person, but some people just take it too far!
the general concept for non-profits is to have a minimum of 6 months expenses in reserves.....and no more than 2 years
So... JEA might be simply use industry "best practices" even though they may not be specifically mandated by regulation? Who would a thunk it... things like billing, deposits and maybe even lottsa other stuff?
So an answer to a question like... "Why does JEA do xxxx xxxx when they are a municipal utility and are not regulated by the state?
Could very well be... "It may not be specifically regulated but it is an industry norm never the less. It is considered a best practice.
" So since xxx xxx is is not required and I think it is an onerous rule ... can we change it?"
"Yes... of course. All you have to do is convince the board of directors that your version of the rule is better than the current one. In fact we encourage public participation."
:)
I think the opposite is true... 8)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 03, 2011, 09:16:59 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 03, 2011, 08:49:47 PM
Westsider, just because you don't elect to have a special meter installed doesn't mean they don't calculate out your peak and off-peak usage based on a computer algorithm. Actually for most of us the entire bill is generated by an algorithm that estimates usage, they have laid most of the meter readers off.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying show me. That goldmine of PDFs that BT gave us has pretty much everything you need to research JEA. There are several different formulas for figuring taxes, energy spikes (for x-rays, welders, etc.) and others, but I didn't come across any general usage formula.
Let me send PM's to Uptowngirl and Riversideloki, they both recently busted JEA over-estimating their usage without reading the meter. That will give you the story directly from real people who've caught them at it. I am in the process of busting JEA for the same thing myself, just waiting for the next bill to drop. From what my readings are so far, their estimates are 20%+ higher than my actual usage. I learned from Uptowngirl's saga, I actually photographed the meter readout with a time and date stamp on it. Let's see them get out of that one.
Drilling is a good idea... Leaking oil is not... ;)
QuoteAs long as the rich get a little bit richer, its all good I guess. I mean, that's why we're all here isnt it?
:D That certainly seems to be the reason these discussions exist and devolve as they do. Rich v poor, corp v joe, rep v dem, lib v con. it is all extremes of black and white and us v them. Some clearly enjoy the sport of it... insults, name calling and sarcasm being the weapon of choice. We have talked at each other for the better part of two days and neither has convinced anyone of anything. Most of us understand JEA has some faults... I bet they would even admit it... But from everything I have read... in the multiple site I have visited has convinced me more than ever that JEA is run like most utilities... public or private... and is actually a pretty good one. That said... if you have a dispute on your bill... by all means... dispute it! If there is an unfair practice all you have to do is convince enough of the right people that it needs to change. You and Chris have tried to convince me for two days to little avail. Keep charging that windmill my friend... It makes for a great read!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 09:12:06 AM
QuoteAs long as the rich get a little bit richer, its all good I guess. I mean, that's why we're all here isnt it?
:D That certainly seems to be the reason these discussions exist and devolve as they do. Rich v poor, corp v joe, rep v dem, lib v con. it is all extremes of black and white and us v them. Some clearly enjoy the sport of it... insults, name calling and sarcasm being the weapon of choice. We have talked at each other for the better part of two days and neither has convinced anyone of anything. Most of us understand JEA has some faults... I bet they would even admit it... But from everything I have read... in the multiple site I have visited has convinced me more than ever that JEA is run like most utilities... public or private... and is actually a pretty good one. That said... if you have a dispute on your bill... by all means... dispute it! If there is an unfair practice all you have to do is convince enough of the right people that it needs to change. You and Chris have tried to convince me for two days to little avail. Keep charging that windmill my friend... It makes for a great read!
Kind of a curious post, when none of the sites you read and posted about actually applied to JEA, since (as you finally had no choice but to acknowledge) they aren't regulated like other utilities, meaning that your links to the PUC and PSC, and state desposit guidelines, etc., were all complete garbage since not a single one applies to JEA.
Yet you continued reposting that nonsensical garbage for 11 pages anyway, trying to muddy the argument. And none of the sites backed up your foregone conclusions, even if they did apply, which they don't. And you continue engaging in nonsensical and disinginuous comparisons of JEA to for-profit companies. It isn't one.
So this is all it takes to support an argument in your world?
QuoteYour flat assessment that this is standard behavior for a public utility, is contradicted by the JEA's own auditor, who has been quoted saying the exact opposite.
Show me.
QuoteYou then tried to conflate predatory lending practices with standard procedure for a not for profit.
Show me that they are in fact predatory. Not someones opinion.
QuoteDespite the fact that every single media source in the city has covered this as a problem,
I have read the articles about people who have a problem paying their bills. I do not doubt nor have I ever said billing mistakes do not happen. They have happened to me.
QuoteI have personallly spoken with Brian Roche, the architect of these policies on his reasoning behind them. I have also spoken with the current and former CEOs of the JEA on these matters, and I have argued at length with Marlene Murphy Roach, the vice president of Customer relations for the JEA.
Awesome. Even our attorney Chris would not allow that as evidence in an argument. perhaps you could convince those folks to join this discussion so I could ask a question. Perhaps even a verifiable quote that we can look up. I am not unreasonable.
Quoteis out of step with what the public, who owns it, thinks it should be run.
Luckily, I happen to qualify as a member of the public... guess that makes an owner too...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 09:12:06 AM
Most of us understand JEA has some faults... I bet they would even admit it... But from everything I have read... in the multiple site I have visited has convinced me more than ever that JEA is run like most utilities... public or private... and is actually a pretty good one.
Well it is curious that JEA runs like most utilities and is a pretty good one when their water is in the top ten worst (poisoned) in the United States. I am betting there are several utilities that would not agree with you!
To be fair... the vast majority of this discussion has been regarding JEA as an electric provider. I happen to agree with you regarding the water supply and would join calls to get this fixed ASAP!
Stephen what the hell are you talking about? It's not like there is ANY WAY that a nearly six-fold increase in arrests for meter tampering could possibly have ANYTHING to do with JEA's abusive and unaffordable deposit requirements. It's not like this problem suddenly started at the same time the deposit requirements went into affect. Oh wait, it did.
This is really the epitome of unfairness. We'll send you a bill for some arbitrary amount that we feel like you might have used. If you can't pay it on time, we'll arbitrarily add another $700-$10,000 to your bill as a deposit, due immediately. If you can't pay this new arbitrary assessment on time, we'll just turn your power and water off and your kids can just go without showers, food, heat, etc. If you turn the power back on, we'll have your ass arrested. It's one big fuck you.
Bridge, I just want to know one thing (that I asked earlier and got no legitimate answer to.)
What is your stake in JEA? Why are you so ardently defending them despite overwhelming of malfeasance? I know it's a bit of a crass question, but I can't think of anyone in Jacksonville that would defend JEA's practices besides bondholders, the board, employees, and contractors making a buck off of JEA.
What camp are you in?
:D OR... The deposits are required BECAUSE of the steady rise in theft and failure to pay what you use. The way this owner see's it... JEA is protecting our community asset and investment from thieves and fraudsters.
Chris... is the amount really arbitrary... or is it clearly defined when you open an account? You are exaggerating again Chris.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on February 04, 2011, 02:28:54 PM
Bridge, I just want to know one thing (that I asked earlier and got no legitimate answer to.)
What is your stake in JEA? Why are you so ardently defending them despite overwhelming of malfeasance? I know it's a bit of a crass question, but I can't think of anyone in Jacksonville that would defend JEA's practices besides bondholders, the board, employees, and contractors making a buck off of JEA.
What camp are you in?
Good question RL. I am none of the above. I am simply a customer as you are. I also am not defending JEA. They certainly do not need my feeble efforts in that regard. What I AM arguing against is the distortion, drama, undocumented claims, name-calling, heresay, and unfounded accusations by various posters. For example... Look at Chris's post critically and without emotion...
QuoteWe'll send you a bill for some arbitrary amount that we feel like you might have used. If you can't pay it on time, we'll arbitrarily add another $700-$10,000 to your bill as a deposit, due immediately. If you can't pay this new arbitrary assessment on time, we'll just turn your power and water off and your kids can just go without showers, food, heat, etc. If you turn the power back on, we'll have your ass arrested. It's one big fuck you.
How much of that rant is factual? How much of that actually describes the vast majority of JEA customers?
Quoteso, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits
We have? Show me.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 09:39:34 AM
QuoteYour flat assessment that this is standard behavior for a public utility, is contradicted by the JEA's own auditor, who has been quoted saying the exact opposite.
Show me.
QuoteYou then tried to conflate predatory lending practices with standard procedure for a not for profit.
Show me that they are in fact predatory. Not someones opinion.
QuoteDespite the fact that every single media source in the city has covered this as a problem,
I have read the articles about people who have a problem paying their bills. I do not doubt nor have I ever said billing mistakes do not happen. They have happened to me.
QuoteI have personallly spoken with Brian Roche, the architect of these policies on his reasoning behind them. I have also spoken with the current and former CEOs of the JEA on these matters, and I have argued at length with Marlene Murphy Roach, the vice president of Customer relations for the JEA.
Awesome. Even our attorney Chris would not allow that as evidence in an argument. perhaps you could convince those folks to join this discussion so I could ask a question. Perhaps even a verifiable quote that we can look up. I am not unreasonable.
Quoteis out of step with what the public, who owns it, thinks it should be run.
Luckily, I happen to qualify as a member of the public... guess that makes an owner too...
There have been several exaggerations and a few non-truths. I don't know what's so difficult in understanding the tarrif structure that Stephen and Chris don't understand. With reverting back to name calling, this is straight fact from JEA and used by other utilities when they compare their rates to ours:
QuoteRate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
This is the leveraged, base rate that every subscriber pays unless they opt for TOD service. They will install the new smart meter, if you don't already have one, and will charge you accordingly:
QuoteRate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
That 3.716 isn't an advertised rate, the 6.334 is. And to reiterate, it's the
base rate, they clearly tell you in the tarrif structure that they are going to charge you more.
I'm sorry that some of you have a hard time understanding something that seems to be fairly black and white. With regards to the deposits, they can charge you up to 2 months of your average bill as a deposit, think of first month's and last month's payments. They cannot exceed that amount - it's in their schedule:
QuoteDeposit Increases
JEA may review any established deposit waiver and/or may adjust the deposit requirement to a minimum amount equal to two (2) months average billed consumption at the current applicable rate, with no minimum amount, if an account shows that it has accumulated two (2) or more of the following infractions:
1. Payment returned from your bank
2. Service disconnected for non-payment.
If your bill routinely runs $250 with charges up to $400 in the summer and they hit you with a deposit, then it can easily be in the $600-$700 dollar range. If the stories of people randomly getting a deposit shown on their bill:
QuoteIf a deposit is adjusted under the review process, JEA will provide a deposit warning notice after the first infraction. If the second infraction occurs within the stipulated time frame the deposit adjustment will appear on the subsequent bill, containing the amount of the deposit increase required and the process necessary to avoid service disconnection. The deposit increase must be paid in accordance with the due date of the monthly bill in which it appears. Contact a JEA Customer Care Consultant for more information.
, or being required to pay a deposit for 'late payments' are true, then they truly have a case against JEA's business practices.
My thoughts have been and will continue to be that there are rarely any surprises, people just see what they want to see and ignore the rest.
These are the facts. BT posted the link several pages back, so feel free to write me off, but the truth is the truth whether you agree to it or not.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 02:42:55 PM
Quoteso, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits
We have? Show me.
Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 04, 2011, 02:55:38 PM
There have been several exaggerations and a few non-truths. I don't know what's so difficult in understanding the tarrif structure that Stephen and Chris don't understand. With reverting back to name calling, this is straight fact from JEA and used by other utilities when they compare their rates to ours:
QuoteRate $5.50 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 6.334 cent per kWh
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
This is the leveraged, base rate that every subscriber pays unless they opt for TOD service. They will install the new smart meter, if you don't already have one, and will charge you accordingly:
QuoteRate $14.30 Customer Charge, plus
Per Month 12.136 cent per kWh during On-Peak hours
3.716 cent per kWh during Off-Peak hours
plus applicable Fuel, Environmental, and Conservation Charges
Definition of
Billing Periods On-peak periods shall be defined as follows:
6 a.m.-10 a.m. - November through March, weekdays only
6 p.m.-10 p.m. - November through March, weekdays only
12 Noon-9 p.m. - April through October; weekdays only
All other periods shall be defined as Off-Peak, including weekends, New
Year's Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day and
Christmas Day.
Fuel Charge As stated in the Fuel and Purchased Power Cost Recovery Charge Policy
(Sheet No. 5.0)
Environmental
Charge As stated in the Environmental Charge (Sheet No. 5.1)
That 3.716 isn't an advertised rate, the 6.334 is. And to reiterate, it's the base rate, they clearly tell you in the tarrif structure that they are going to charge you more.
I'm sorry that some of you have a hard time understanding something that seems to be fairly black and white. With regards to the deposits, they can charge you up to 2 months of your average bill as a deposit, think of first month's and last month's payments. They cannot exceed that amount - it's in their schedule:
QuoteDeposit Increases
JEA may review any established deposit waiver and/or may adjust the deposit requirement to a minimum amount equal to two (2) months average billed consumption at the current applicable rate, with no minimum amount, if an account shows that it has accumulated two (2) or more of the following infractions:
1. Payment returned from your bank
2. Service disconnected for non-payment.
If your bill routinely runs $250 with charges up to $400 in the summer and they hit you with a deposit, then it can easily be in the $600-$700 dollar range. If the stories of people randomly getting a deposit shown on their bill:
QuoteIf a deposit is adjusted under the review process, JEA will provide a deposit warning notice after the first infraction. If the second infraction occurs within the stipulated time frame the deposit adjustment will appear on the subsequent bill, containing the amount of the deposit increase required and the process necessary to avoid service disconnection. The deposit increase must be paid in accordance with the due date of the monthly bill in which it appears. Contact a JEA Customer Care Consultant for more information.
, or being required to pay a deposit for 'late payments' are true, then they truly have a case against JEA's business practices.
My thoughts have been and will continue to be that there are rarely any surprises, people just see what they want to see and ignore the rest.
These are the facts. BT posted the link several pages back, so feel free to write me off, but the truth is the truth whether you agree to it or not.
Nobody is arguing that they don't publish a base rate, Westsider. What our point is, and has been from the beginning, is that the base rate is so far off from what you actually pay that it's laughable. When you compare the combined rates of JEA and other utilities, JEA is the highest in the state that I've found, and they even admit (in the PDF I already posted for you) that their actual combined rate is $0.124. So this discussion of "base rate" (e.g., the rate that nobody pays, before we tack a bunch of extra crap on) is kind of irrelevant, no?
And regarding the deposits, they don't charge 2 months' worth of usage, they charge far more. That's the whole problem here. In some cases, we're talking like 4-6 months' worth of usage, not just two months.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 02:55:46 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 02:42:55 PM
Quoteso, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits
We have? Show me.
Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?
I did not miss it. In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced. Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did. I would love to look at what he found...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 03:00:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 02:55:46 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 02:42:55 PM
Quoteso, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits
We have? Show me.
Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?
I did not miss it. In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced. Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did. I would love to look at what he found...
So since you noticed his post, and still implied that the deposit comment was untrue, aren't you calling him a liar?
Quote from: stephendare on February 04, 2011, 02:59:13 PM
Here in 2004, we see rate increases going into 11 million dollars of employee bonuses. Thats eleven times the amount that the JEA claims was stolen.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/121904/met_17483412.shtml
Quote
Jacksonville city leaders are less than pleased with their utility and are lashing out at JEA, which is considering its second rate increase within a few months and is giving employees $11.4 million in bonuses.
Mayor John Peyton said last week he's concerned about the timing of the bonuses, and City Councilman Art Shad is asking for an audit to show if JEA execs would've received the same bonus if they didn't split their rate increases into two parts.
One criteria for the bonus is keeping the lowest electric rates in Florida, which JEA may not have once its next increase hits in the spring. The amount of the second increase hasn't yet been determined, so it's impossible to know now if they'll still be the lowest in the state, JEA spokesman Ron Whittington said.
"Naturally, I'm concerned about the amount of the bonuses, the timing of the bonuses and the weighting of the bonuses," Peyton said.
Line employees got an average bonus of about 8 percent, while managers got an average near 20 percent.
Peyton said he looks forward to talking with JEA's board members and management. One of his first questions will be to see an analysis of bonuses at other utility companies to get a better understanding of the bonus system.
Peyton said his office has been slammed with unhappy residents. But he said there's little he can do because he doesn't control the utility. But the mayor does appoint JEA's seven board members.
Peyton's only appointment so far has been Jay Fant, "the most frugal business-minded person I know," Peyton said. Fant is an executive at First Guaranty Bank.
Peyton said his goal will be to find similar-minded people for future appointments.
"This situation certainly makes relevant the need for smart, business-minded leadership on the board," Peyton said.
Let 'em vote on it
I was one of the ones listed as Not freeking happy. I also agree that it is probably time to appoint new board members. I certainly did not see anyone in the article say that JEA "stole money".
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 03:01:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 03:00:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 04, 2011, 02:55:46 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 02:42:55 PM
Quoteso, weve established that the jea is holding up to 300 million dollars just in deposits, which would make the total amount of 1 million dollars of potential theft to be one third of one percent of the held deposits
We have? Show me.
Did you miss Ron Chamblin's post, or are you just saying/implying that he's a liar?
I did not miss it. In fact his post prompted me to look for what he referenced. Unfortunately he failed to provide a link and I was unable to find what he apparently did. I would love to look at what he found...
So since you noticed his post, and still implied that the deposit comment was untrue, aren't you calling him a liar?
Absolutely and unequivically not.
Ron clearly says in the post...
QuoteI hope I’ve interpreted the tables correctly. I over estimated the number of customers in my earlier blog --I had estimated the deposits to be around $600,000,000 or so. Sorry about my wild estimates.
Perhaps we can all take a look at them.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 03:10:47 PM
Ron clearly says in the post...
QuoteI hope I’ve interpreted the tables correctly. I over estimated the number of customers in my earlier blog --I had estimated the deposits to be around $600,000,000 or so. Sorry about my wild estimates.
Perhaps we can all take a look at them.
He also said the correct figure is a shade under $300mm, didn't he? Again, is he making that up?
Good lord Chris... quit being so childish...
He said he hopes he interpreted correctly. MEANING... he was not sure... HENCE a closer look by anyone interested is a good idea.
He may very well be 100% correct and I am certainly open to that. I really do not think it is unreasonable to look at the charts and figures myself do you?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 03:17:41 PM
Good lord Chris... quit being so childish...
He said he hopes he interpreted correctly. MEANING... he was not sure... HENCE a closer look by anyone interested is a good idea.
He may very well be 100% correct and I am certainly open to that. I really do not think it is unreasonable to look at the charts and figures myself do you?
I'm not being childish, just using a bit of theater to point out how absurd you're being with your questioning/doubting every statement that contradicts your viewpoint, despite multiple people saying the same thing, and despite multiple links already being posted in the thread demonstrating the same things you're doubting. You keep claiming this is all "opinion" yada yada yada, despite there already being sources in this very thread for everything that you're questioning.
It's just an argument tactic on your part, meant to discredit or question the support for every viewpoint you don't agree with, even when you already have to know the opposing view is well supported. The problem with that tactic is that it's being over-used, and we've now crossed over the tipping point into being just plain absurd. Your stance has devolved to the point of someone saying "the sky is blue" and your automatic response is "well that's just your opinion" or "prove it."
It's getting a little ridiculous...
OMG... I suddenly see the light! How could I have been so thoroughly duped?
JEA is a nest of thieves... stealing (sometimes openly) from the public for the benefit of a few shadowy capitalists intent on sucking the poor dry. But wait theres more! JEA is secretly poisoning the water causing us to pay our grossly unfair bills without question. Those greedy bastards are actually charging late fees on payments received a mere 20 days late! To make matters worse these greedy bloodsuckers have the balls to charge a completely unreasonable deposit to those who through no fault of their own are chronically late paying their grossly unfair bills. Need more? The list grievances is too long to express adequately...
Again... Thank you Stephen and Chris... I appreciate your patience.
Just comin around to your point of view. You are very convincing BTW.
Based on the convincing case Chris and yourself have made... I have no choice but to conclude that...
JEA is corrupt... possibly beyond salvage
JEA billing practices are clearly criminal
JEA is a prime example of capitalists stealing from the poor
JEA lies and cheats
JEA executives are criminally overpaid
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 04, 2011, 04:22:23 PM
Based on the convincing case Chris and yourself have made... I have no choice but to conclude that...
JEA is corrupt... possibly beyond salvage
JEA billing practices are clearly criminal
JEA is a prime example of capitalists stealing from the poor
JEA lies and cheats
JEA executives are criminally overpaid
So when you couldn't demand proof from everyone that the sky is blue anymore, now you resort to this new tactic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
QuoteReductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to the absurd") is a form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd consequence.
Quotethis form of proof is a logical fallacy.
:D I am certainly surprised both of you find my conversion to your point of veiw regarding JEA absurd... These are after all the very points you make. I am simply caving in to your logic. It is positively... irrefutable.
Awesome! Agreement is so much better... dont ya think?
QuoteBased on the convincing case Chris and yourself have made... I have no choice but to conclude that...
JEA is corrupt... possibly beyond salvage
JEA billing practices are clearly criminal
JEA is a prime example of capitalists stealing from the poor
JEA lies and cheats
JEA executives are criminally overpaid
I spoke to some small business owners here in my neighborhood, they are flabbergasted by the bills they have been receiving, they also state the flucuation from month to month makes no sense. The impact of these charges to SB can be castrophic.
whether you love JEA (BT and RK) or you hate them, shouldn't a basic component of their existence be the ability for the average user to understand what they are being charged for? should the average user have to guess why their bills goes from $200 to $1,000 to $600 to $200 every month when they are not making any changes to their actual usage? Shouldn't the average user be able to look at the meter and see the same damn reading on it that the JEA customer service rep is reading from their screen?
The root of the issue is JEA making up usage and peak vs. non-peak charges and their wild readings that do not match the meter attached to the property.
FYI...I got my bill today....it is $106 for electric ($172 for everything...yes the sewer/water prices are high)....subtracting the taxes (about $12) and fuel cost (about $35), my electric "base" charge is $59...and I used 774 kwh, which makes the rate $0.0762 per kwh.
btw...it is necessary for the fuel costs to be separate...as we all know, fuel prices can be very volatile...so if they were combined with the base rate, the rate would change quite regularly...which, for most utilities, would require constant PSC/PUC approval.
JEA is outrageous on their billing. I wont elaborate because I do not feel like being put under a microscope for my position.
I think some of their business practices leave A GREAT DEAL to be desired. As someone else pointed out,,,since it is that we have no alternative option for which to get utilities from , we are pretty much stuck with JEA.
For my part... I thank GOD that I am on a well of my own and NOT City Water/Sewer because my already outrageous bill would be approaching a point that I could not afford.
I think some really ridiculous salaries need to be done away with at JEA. If this is a public-owned entity , perhaps it is time for a major change. But the policies they set forth for deposits, tacking on additional deposits if someone is late once or twice is A B S U R D !
Seems to me, the middle class American is being stripped away... we will eventually end up with either filthy rich , or dirt poor, with no in-between.
So sorry guys. Careless of me to omit an address for verification. Here is the address showing the 2009 JEA deposit fund. The deposit totals are shown each year in the section titled “Notes to Financial Statementsâ€
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/fc2aa9f8#/fc2aa9f8/56
In the future I will be sure and offer the address of the source of any items for which anyone might want to verify. See what you think. Again, I'm pretty sure I'm interpreting the table correctly. The JEA customer deposits on hand for 2009 show as being $281,189,000.
Give a man a fish, and you will feed him for a day. Give him a religion, and he will starve to death while praying for a fish.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2011, 10:53:07 PM
FYI...I got my bill today....it is $106 for electric ($172 for everything...yes the sewer/water prices are high)....subtracting the taxes (about $12) and fuel cost (about $35), my electric "base" charge is $59...and I used 774 kwh, which makes the rate $0.0762 per kwh.
btw...it is necessary for the fuel costs to be separate...as we all know, fuel prices can be very volatile...so if they were combined with the base rate, the rate would change quite regularly...which, for most utilities, would require constant PSC/PUC approval.
So, by your logic, then you wouldn't have a problem if you went to a restaurant to get a $7 burger and fries, and when you got your bill you find you were charged $20 extra for the bun, $10 extra for the lettuce, and a $15 fee for the use of the plate, despite the restaurant advertising a $7 burger? Awesome man!
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
Interestingly enough, it seems certain states are charging around the same rate as JEA, but that is with tacking on some additional "green costs" for renewability (non coal energy) and recovering costs for the investment of the same. If you look at slide six in the link, you can see the break down of costs to produce each type of fuel, with coal being one of the lowest. I find it interesting that some feel JEA is charging reasonable rates based on what other utilities are charging, but are only looking at the actual rates being charged. So while during peak season LA utility is charging a slightly higher rate, and off peak about the same rate, they also are held responsible to a certain percentage to go towards renewable energy efforts and are actually investing in renewable energy options- while JEA is just adding to city coffers, or building new coal plants...
I am going to continue to dig through the multitude of data out there, but upon initial investigation comparing rates of one utility to another does not seem to be a very fair comparison. Especially when you add in the cost of living adjustment for some of the areas we are comparing rates too. CA is obviously a much higher cost area, people are paid more to compensate for that, for instance gasoline may be $4.50 a gallon in CA and $2.98 in GA.
While desperately poor may not care what that extra money is being used for when their lights are turned off, most of us would agree paying more in for renewable energy efficiencies is not a bad trade off.
http://www.lewis.ucla.edu/climate/files/TheCostsofRPSTargetsLADWPOKeefeBedrossian_f09.pdf
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 05, 2011, 09:10:33 AM
Interestingly enough, it seems certain states are charging around the same rate as JEA, but that is with tacking on some additional "green costs" for renewability (non coal energy) and recovering costs for the investment of the same. If you look at slide six in the link, you can see the break down of costs to produce each type of fuel, with coal being one of the lowest. I find it interesting that some feel JEA is charging reasonable rates based on what other utilities are charging, but are only looking at the actual rates being charged. So while during peak season LA utility is charging a slightly higher rate, and off peak about the same rate, they also are held responsible to a certain percentage to go towards renewable energy efforts and are actually investing in renewable energy options- while JEA is just adding to city coffers, or building new coal plants...
I am going to continue to dig through the multitude of data out there, but upon initial investigation comparing rates of one utility to another does not seem to be a very fair comparison. Especially when you add in the cost of living adjustment for some of the areas we are comparing rates too. CA is obviously a much higher cost area, people are paid more to compensate for that, for instance gasoline may be $4.50 a gallon in CA and $2.98 in GA.
While desperately poor may not care what that extra money is being used for when their lights are turned off, most of us would agree paying more in for renewable energy efficiencies is not a bad trade off.
http://www.lewis.ucla.edu/climate/files/TheCostsofRPSTargetsLADWPOKeefeBedrossian_f09.pdf
Hey at least JEA is doing
something with their pollution...putting it in our water! ;D A new form of recycling?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 04, 2011, 10:53:07 PM
FYI...I got my bill today....it is $106 for electric ($172 for everything...yes the sewer/water prices are high)....subtracting the taxes (about $12) and fuel cost (about $35), my electric "base" charge is $59...and I used 774 kwh, which makes the rate $0.0762 per kwh.
btw...it is necessary for the fuel costs to be separate...as we all know, fuel prices can be very volatile...so if they were combined with the base rate, the rate would change quite regularly...which, for most utilities, would require constant PSC/PUC approval.
So, by your logic, then you wouldn't have a problem if you went to a restaurant to get a $7 burger and fries, and when you got your bill you find you were charged $20 extra for the bun, $10 extra for the lettuce, and a $15 fee for the use of the plate, despite the restaurant advertising a $7 burger? Awesome man!
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
Jesus, Man!!! Don't give restaurants any ideas !!
Why not? It was working for that pizza place at the landing for a while?
*ducks*
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
except they don't have to hold public hearings and get approval from an oversight board to change their prices.
btw...all the taxes that get added to the mutility bill are no different than things like cell phone, hotel, and car rental bills.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2011, 02:54:35 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
except they don't have to hold public hearings and get approval from an oversight board to change their prices.
btw...all the taxes that get added to the mutility bill are no different than things like cell phone, hotel, and car rental bills.
They're entirely different.
Taxes on your cell phone bill don't just go straight back to your phone carrier's bottom line. JEA = COJ, and the "Franchise Fee" and "Public Service Tax" they add to our bills goes straight back to them. They aren't collecting that money to pay to the State, it just goes right back to them. If AT&T started adding random "taxes" to your bill and pocketing the money, like JEA/COJ does, they'd go to jail. So, tufsu, they are quite different things indeed.
But if you insist, please show me a phone company that adds taxes to their customers' bills and keeps the money.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2011, 02:54:35 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
except they don't have to hold public hearings and get approval from an oversight board to change their prices.
btw...all the taxes that get added to the mutility bill are no different than things like cell phone, hotel, and car rental bills.
LOL, so the CEO is a BS job at JEA- you just said it yourself !
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 05, 2011, 06:09:32 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 05, 2011, 02:54:35 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 05, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Food prices are volatile too, amd it costs money to reprint ads, so maybe restaurants should start billing like JEA?
except they don't have to hold public hearings and get approval from an oversight board to change their prices.
btw...all the taxes that get added to the mutility bill are no different than things like cell phone, hotel, and car rental bills.
LOL, so the CEO is a BS job at JEA- you just said it yourself !
please explain
"except they don't have to hold public hearings and get approval from an oversight board to change their prices."
The CEO cannot set his own prices all on his own, he can't just go build a new nuclear plant all on his own, ultimately any big decisions go to multiple parties for approval prior to being acted upon.
JEA=COJ you said it brother, who needs a CEO? It is a redundant, redundant position you just said so yourself. It is not like a private business where someone is making decisions about what to charge, how to pay for it, advertising the goods, etc etc.....
While it is clear to me and everyone else here that the CEO of JEA is stealing a large chunk of his unearned pay from the public... maybe we should get some salary figures of CEOs of similar operations just to put an exclamation point on it. :)
Some get this, some don't. BTW how many jobs like this are out there? Is there a huge competitive market for this? I think not. CEO pay across the board is outrageous period. For utilities in general, and government owned utilities in particular it is a joke. There are no other options to consumers, so there is no justification in these salaries. Utilities executives pay out pace all other city and most state governmental positions. How can the CEO of JEA be making more important decisions than the governor of Florida? Would we get a more qualified leader of our state if we just paid more???? Why is OK to support this position and not support higher pay for government workers making even more key decisions with much, much larger budgets and way more risk???
http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Florida_state_government_salary#
BTW- Governor's salary DECREASED in 2010. Not one position here makes over 200K a yr and the CEO of JEA has a more important role to play than the governor, attorney general, mayor???
undefensible. It is a government position-period.
Take a look at the salaries and benefits of the top generals and admirals who literally make life & death decisions about their "employees" and look at their qualifications. All of them have advanced degrees and many of them have Phd's and all have decades of increasingly important job experience.
Bet you that they don't make nearly as much as the JEA head does and don't have any better benefits.
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 06, 2011, 12:50:51 PM
Take a look at the salaries and benefits of the top generals and admirals who literally make life & death decisions about their "employees" and look at their qualifications. All of them have advanced degrees and many of them have Phd's and all have decades of increasingly important job experience.
Bet you that they don't make nearly as much as the JEA head does and don't have any better benefits.
you might want to check what happens when they retire from the military and join the private sector
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 06, 2011, 03:17:23 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 06, 2011, 12:50:51 PM
Take a look at the salaries and benefits of the top generals and admirals who literally make life & death decisions about their "employees" and look at their qualifications. All of them have advanced degrees and many of them have Phd's and all have decades of increasingly important job experience.
Bet you that they don't make nearly as much as the JEA head does and don't have any better benefits.
you might want to check what happens when they retire from the military and join the private sector
Which was the point, or did some miss it?
A lot of them play a lot of golf. Some of them, depending on their experience and education, go into teaching at universities and think tanks. Some of them, depending on their experience and education, go onto Board of Directors or into the top ranks of business executives where the earn LOTS more than they ever did as Generals/Admirals for a few years before the retire again.
Some of them go into public service as volunteers as well, even after their second retirement.
I had the honor (and fantastic learning experience) of serving with two retired generals and a retired admiral on the City of Treasure Island Planning Commission. At the time I was by two or three decades the youngest person on the Board and was awed by the intelligence, perception and force of character of these balding, wrinkled old men. Even in their Hawaiian shirts, Bermuda shorts showing knobby knees, the command presence was formidable.
It was deeply satisfying to watch hot-shot lawyers for developers wilt and panic under the authoritative questioning and deep knowledge of the regulations. They could make you feel like a complete fool just by their tone of voice.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 06, 2011, 03:17:23 PM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 06, 2011, 12:50:51 PM
Take a look at the salaries and benefits of the top generals and admirals who literally make life & death decisions about their "employees" and look at their qualifications. All of them have advanced degrees and many of them have Phd's and all have decades of increasingly important job experience.
Bet you that they don't make nearly as much as the JEA head does and don't have any better benefits.
you might want to check what happens when they retire from the military and join the private sector
Unless they all go to work in the JEA call center I am not entirely sure what you're getting at...
I think she is implying that they all jump into super high paid executive jobs in military contracting companies.
TUFSU
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 07, 2011, 07:22:24 AM
I think she is implying that they all jump into super high paid executive jobs in military contracting companies.
that is exactly what I implied...and it certainly applies to some retired generals.
FYI...this is what happens when you choke government down to nothing....perfect example, FDOT....the agency is the same size it was in 1976, when Florida's population was less than half of what it is now.....the only way that worked is to have consulting firms do more of the work...is that really cheaper?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 07, 2011, 08:50:24 AM
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 07, 2011, 07:22:24 AM
I think she is implying that they all jump into super high paid executive jobs in military contracting companies.
that is exactly what I implied...and it certainly applies to some retired generals.
FYI...this is what happens when you choke government down to nothing....perfect example, FDOT....the agency is the same size it was in 1976, when Florida's population was less than half of what it is now.....the only way that worked is to have consulting firms do more of the work...is that really cheaper?
They will hire consulting firms regardless of their size. Consulting contracts have become politicized in FL.
And as far as army generals, WTF exactly does that have to do with handing out 6-figure salaries to a bunch of midlevel local utility management, when that is often the sole emolpyer or sole employer at that responsibility level on their resume?
Tufsu, please go down the list of JEA employees we posted, and highlight all these retired generals on the JEA payroll. Which will be difficult because there aren't any. Until then, quit muddying the waters.
Isn't that the whole point though? People take lower paying, high responsibility jobs in government service. In some cases this is pure service, in some cases it is gain experience, in some cases it is to obtain an education/trade, and in some cases it is all of the above. When did going into government service become a way to make tons of money? That is the root issue, especially when that money is the tax payors.
Any company that is a monoply should have limits on charges and pay, JEA is not participating in free market, it's consumers do not have any alternative options other than going without power and water. Open the market up and the rules change.
QuoteAny company that is a monoply should have limits on charges and pay, JEA is not participating in free market, it's consumers do not have any alternative options other than going without power and water. Open the market up and the rules change.
The market is more open than it has ever been. Virtually any place you live in the US of A you are stuck with the utility that services your zip code. Very few if any power/energy consumers can pick between utility A,B, or C. The advances in "alternative energy" at least now allow you to lessen your dependence on the grid and I suspect more and more will take advantage of that.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 09:59:18 AM
QuoteAny company that is a monoply should have limits on charges and pay, JEA is not participating in free market, it's consumers do not have any alternative options other than going without power and water. Open the market up and the rules change.
The market is more open than it has ever been. Virtually any place you live in the US of A you are stuck with the utility that services your zip code. Very few if any power/energy consumers can pick between utility A,B, or C. The advances in "alternative energy" at least now allow you to lessen your dependence on the grid and I suspect more and more will take advantage of that.
So I can have a different provider than JEA?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 09:13:36 AM
Tufsu, please go down the list of JEA employees we posted, and highlight all these retired generals on the JEA payroll. Which will be difficult because there aren't any. Until then, quit muddying the waters.
hey...I'm not the one who brought up military generals to start with
As for agencies hiring consultants regardless of their size, you are correct....in the case of FDOT this wouild likely happen for design of facilities....but you wouldn't need consultants to sit in the District and Central offices and be an extension of staff if they were sized properly to begin with.
Quote from: uptowngirl on February 07, 2011, 10:08:33 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 09:59:18 AM
QuoteAny company that is a monoply should have limits on charges and pay, JEA is not participating in free market, it's consumers do not have any alternative options other than going without power and water. Open the market up and the rules change.
The market is more open than it has ever been. Virtually any place you live in the US of A you are stuck with the utility that services your zip code. Very few if any power/energy consumers can pick between utility A,B, or C. The advances in "alternative energy" at least now allow you to lessen your dependence on the grid and I suspect more and more will take advantage of that.
So I can have a different provider than JEA?
Just like 90% of the country... No. But you most certainly can cover your rooftop with solar panels and erect windmills in your front and back yard. 20 years ago most people did not even have that choice...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 09:59:18 AM
QuoteAny company that is a monoply should have limits on charges and pay, JEA is not participating in free market, it's consumers do not have any alternative options other than going without power and water. Open the market up and the rules change.
The market is more open than it has ever been. Virtually any place you live in the US of A you are stuck with the utility that services your zip code. Very few if any power/energy consumers can pick between utility A,B, or C. The advances in "alternative energy" at least now allow you to lessen your dependence on the grid and I suspect more and more will take advantage of that.
Except, and this is the fact you keep ignoring because it submarines your viewpoint, JEA is taxpayer owned and exists solely to serve us, not the other way around. JEA carries obligations (well, on paper anyway, in practice is another story) that other utility companies do not. So these comparisons do not work.
There are taxpayer owned utilities all across the country... JEA is not unique in that regard. Do you happen to know a zip code... any zip code... where you can pick between competing utilities?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 07, 2011, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 09:13:36 AM
Tufsu, please go down the list of JEA employees we posted, and highlight all these retired generals on the JEA payroll. Which will be difficult because there aren't any. Until then, quit muddying the waters.
hey...I'm not the one who brought up military generals to start with
As for agencies hiring consultants regardless of their size, you are correct....in the case of FDOT this wouild likely happen for design of facilities....but you wouldn't need consultants to sit in the District and Central offices and be an extension of staff if they were sized properly to begin with.
Yeah I agree with you on that. We seem to be under the perpetual misperception that outsourcing is always cheaper. It's not.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
There are taxpayer owned utilities all across the country... JEA is not unique in that regard. Do you happen to know a zip code... any zip code... where you can pick between competing utilities?
12 of the 48 contiguous states already allow this, BT. Believe it or not Texas led the way on this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation_of_the_Texas_electricity_market
You don't really do much reading before digging your heels in on these arguments, do you?
QuoteThe only relevant fact is that we own this utility, and we can decide how it is run, and who it serves.
Awesome... we can agree on this! The ONLY reason I bring it up... is the persistent lamentations that JEA is a monopoly. I am simply replying that virtually ALL utilities are monopolies... whether public or private... and that taxpayer owned utilities are hardly unique to Duval county.
I also mention that at least now... consumers can actually choose to go off the grid and supply their own power.
Good morning Stephen... :)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
There are taxpayer owned utilities all across the country... JEA is not unique in that regard. Do you happen to know a zip code... any zip code... where you can pick between competing utilities?
12 of the 48 states already allow this, BT. Believe it or not Texas led the way on this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation_of_the_Texas_electricity_market
You don't really do much reading before digging your heels in on these arguments, do you?
just what do you think I am arguing?? I am not arguing anything...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
There are taxpayer owned utilities all across the country... JEA is not unique in that regard. Do you happen to know a zip code... any zip code... where you can pick between competing utilities?
12 of the 48 states already allow this, BT. Believe it or not Texas led the way on this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation_of_the_Texas_electricity_market
You don't really do much reading before digging your heels in on these arguments, do you?
just what do you think I am arguing?? I am not arguing anything...
Well I didn't say "successfully arguing" lol...
But OK, what have you been doing for the last 18 pages of this thread, if not arguing with people?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
There are taxpayer owned utilities all across the country... JEA is not unique in that regard. Do you happen to know a zip code... any zip code... where you can pick between competing utilities?
Yep I do. In Abita Springs La (across the lake from NOLA) I had an option between companies.
http://toplocalpower.com/cheapest-electricity/louisiana/abita-springs
I chose the co-op and my bill was cheap too, nice side effect
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
QuoteThe only relevant fact is that we own this utility, and we can decide how it is run, and who it serves.
Awesome... we can agree on this! The ONLY reason I bring it up... is the persistent lamentations that JEA is a monopoly. I am simply replying that virtually ALL utilities are monopolies... whether public or private... and that taxpayer owned utilities are hardly unique to Duval county.
I also mention that at least now... consumers can actually choose to go off the grid and supply their own power.
Good morning Stephen... :)
As just shown above, not all utilities are monopolies.
12 states have already deregulated and residents can choose their provider. Expect this trend to continue.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 10:48:06 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
QuoteThe only relevant fact is that we own this utility, and we can decide how it is run, and who it serves.
Awesome... we can agree on this! The ONLY reason I bring it up... is the persistent lamentations that JEA is a monopoly. I am simply replying that virtually ALL utilities are monopolies... whether public or private... and that taxpayer owned utilities are hardly unique to Duval county.
I also mention that at least now... consumers can actually choose to go off the grid and supply their own power.
Good morning Stephen... :)
As just shown above, not all utilities are monopolies.
12 states have already deregulated and residents can choose their provider. Expect this trend to continue.
I do... and I think it is great. Monopolies run by anybody... including the government... are not good for anybody. I am really happy to see that you embrace deregulation of this industry...
Quote from: stephendare on February 07, 2011, 10:50:57 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 07, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
QuoteThe only relevant fact is that we own this utility, and we can decide how it is run, and who it serves.
Awesome... we can agree on this! The ONLY reason I bring it up... is the persistent lamentations that JEA is a monopoly. I am simply replying that virtually ALL utilities are monopolies... whether public or private... and that taxpayer owned utilities are hardly unique to Duval county.
I also mention that at least now... consumers can actually choose to go off the grid and supply their own power.
Good morning Stephen... :)
Good Morning Bridge. So now that youve mentioned that other power companies are monopolies, what point are you trying to prove?
That doesnt apply at all to the management of the one that we do own, or the inappropriate decision on the part of the Board of Directors to favor the interests of the bondholders over the interests of the public.
Perhaps you can explain how----in any way---the existence of other monopolies has a bearing on our publicly owned utility in Jacksonville?
The big counterargument against this is, if you don't make the bondholders happy, the bondholders won't lend you any money or will lend you money at a gigantic interest rate. If you don't have bonds, that means you have to self-finance the project yourself and for a billion dollar power facility, that can be very expensive to do.
What's the counter-counter augment against this?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 10:38:31 AM
12 of the 48 contiguous states already allow this, BT. Believe it or not Texas led the way on this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation_of_the_Texas_electricity_market
You don't really do much reading before digging your heels in on these arguments, do you?
The last sentence of the opening paragraph:
QuoteEnergy prices in Texas have increased substantially since deregulation.[1][2][3]
Should we peruse further down the wikipedia article and see how competition lowered the price?
1. ^ Deregulation Jolts Texas Electric Bills (Wall Street Journal, July 17, 2008)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121625744742160575.html?mod=loomia&loomia_si=t0:a16:g2:r3:c0.111415
2. ^ http://www.khou.com/business/stories/khou080528_ac_energyprices.35063d4b.html <BAD LINK>
3. ^ Shocking electricity prices follow deregulation
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2007-08-09-power-prices_N.htm
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 07, 2011, 10:48:06 AM
As just shown above, not all utilities are monopolies.
12 states have already deregulated and residents can choose their provider. Expect this trend to continue.
Some nuggets in no particular order....
QuoteWhile average prices rose 21% in regulated states from 2002 to 2006, they leapt 36% in deregulated states where rate caps expired, according to a study by Ken Rose, senior fellow at the Institute of Public Utilities at Michigan State University.
QuoteMany states are now putting their plan to deregulate on hold because lower rates have yet to be achieved in any of the deregulated states.
QuoteWhen Texas lawmakers agreed to open the state's power markets to competition back in 1999, one promise was on the tip of many tongues â€" lower prices.
"Competition in the electric industry will benefit Texans by reducing monthly rates and offering consumers more choices about the power they use," then-Gov.
George W. Bush said at the time.
Then-state Sen. David Sibley, who was a key author of the bill, put the promise more bluntly:
''If all consumers don't benefit from this, we will have wasted our time and failed our constituency," he said.
Eight years later, many consumers are calling deregulation just that â€" a failed waste of time.
Now most of these articles were written from '06 to '08, so maybe they have it all figured out now.
Gentle people, one question that I have is regarding the proposed "Nuclear" site up Georgia way that JEA has bought into......last I heard was 1.3 Billion Dollars of liability. This is due to the deep pockets of the public who have no option for alternative power source. If I were only rich enough, I would have no choice but to consider going full solar or self contained as to a power generation situation......if I were ever to win the big one, JEA look out!
JEA has heard us!
They are offering workshops to give us advice on energy usage!
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=190615&catid=3
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- It's been a cold, long winter for north Florida, and the next week will bring more temperatures in the 30s, indicating the warm weather isn't on its way yet.
The low temperatures mean compromising between comfort and cost; heating bills are high.
Beginning this evening, JEA is hosting several workshops to help residents learn how to better manage home energy usage.
The workshops will be held at the following Jacksonville Public Library locations and times:
Today, 6 - 8 p.m., West Regional Library
Tues., Feb. 15, 10 a.m. - noon, Mandarin Regional Library
Sat., Feb. 19, 10 a.m. - noon, Beaches Regional Library
Sat., Feb. 26, 10 a.m. - noon, Main Library
At the workshops, efficiency experts will offer tips to trim costs and save energy throughout the home, as well as incentives that can help offset costs.
Also at those four libraries, JEA is offering free home energy evaluation kits for anyone with a library card. Experts will be on hand to show how the kits work.
JEA's website offers a home energy analyzer that also offers advice on maximizing a home's energy efficiency.
what a great idea...
The problem, as has been repeatedly discussed, isn't usage. It's unethical billing practices, and arbitrary and excessive deposit requirements. This "home energy workshop" crap is simply more of JEA's "Use Less, We'll Still Find a Way to Charge More!" B.S.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 01:39:05 PM
The problem, as has been repeatedly discussed, isn't usage. It's unethical billing practices, and arbitrary and excessive deposit requirements. This "home energy workshop" crap is simply more of JEA's "Use Less, We'll Still Find a Way to Charge More!" B.S.
I know that...JEA's response to public outrage is simply this workshop. That is what is great...they are so out of touch
Quote from: 77danj7 on February 08, 2011, 01:43:29 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 08, 2011, 01:39:05 PM
The problem, as has been repeatedly discussed, isn't usage. It's unethical billing practices, and arbitrary and excessive deposit requirements. This "home energy workshop" crap is simply more of JEA's "Use Less, We'll Still Find a Way to Charge More!" B.S.
I know that...JEA's response to public outrage is simply this workshop. That is what is great...they are so out of touch
I figured that's what you meant, I was just grousing because they're covering up what they're doing. Their M.O. lately is to blame us for increased consumption, when in reality consumption is the same and the price has skyrocketed. I wonder how many people fall for this B.S.?
Im sure the meetings will be packed!
Quote from: 77danj7 on February 08, 2011, 01:24:55 PM
Beginning this evening, JEA is hosting several workshops to help residents learn how to better manage home energy usage.
I decided to conserve electricity and water last month and here is what happened...
Electric charges are 14.8 cents per kWh.
Water consumption at zero gallons costs $36.70.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1181768941_AUPsd-X2.jpg)
It's exactly what we've been saying all along.
Use more, we'll charge you more. Use less, and we'll still find a way to charge you more!
Why not.
QuoteCustomer Charge
Fixed monthly cost of providing service to your home. JEA must maintain your meter(s), pipes and wires whether or not electricity, water or sewer services are used.
Monthly Cost - $18.29(water) & $15.51(sewage)+ Taxes and Franchise Fees(City Mandated)
I assume you have your irrigation running through your meter since you have a 3/4" meter (5/8" is standard for residential). The 3/4" meter is costing you about $11.27/month for nothing.
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 05:21:44 PM
Why are they charging 40 bucks a month for people to not use any water?
Seems like straight up thievery.
I have heard about a flat-rate charge regardless if power was used or not. How is that legal?
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 10:03:35 PM
I have heard about a flat-rate charge regardless if power was used or not. How is that legal?
You're kidding right?
What's your cable bill every month? How much TV did you watch?
What's your phone bill every month? How many minutes did you use?
What's your natural gas bill every month? Did they even fill your tank again?
Thank you, Stephen. I agree. and NO I was not kidding with the question. sheesh.
sorry, I hit send before following up.
I do not have a natural gas bill because I do not use it, so I do not have to worry about the tank not being filled or being billed whether or not I use it. As to Cable and Phone, you make sort of a point..to which I say both of those are not necessities...not so with Electric and Water...and thank god, I have a well with the property , or I would be being raped with water and sewer charges as well.
Oh I forgot, you're for good government...
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_to_dITiFe90/Si1R9nbcVUI/AAAAAAAACks/vkv_ipFwPPk/s400/bread+line.jpg)
you must work for JEA ? :)
0______0
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 10:25:08 PM
I do not have a natural gas bill because I do not use it, so I do not have to worry about the tank not being filled or being billed whether or not I use it.
Well, they charge you a maintenance fee every so often (depends on your plan - monthly, quarterly, et...) whether you use the gas or not. Then they really rake you over the coals when you actually do fill the tank.
QuoteAs to Cable and Phone, you make sort of a point..to which I say both of those are not necessities...not so with Electric and Water...and thank god, I have a well with the property , or I would be being raped with water and sewer charges as well.
So instead their just raping you on the electricity. That is only a $5.50/month flat rate.
To make sort of a point myself, if you really want to break it down, electricity isn't a necessity, it's just used to power all of the things that make
life easier the little things that arent' really a necessity just that.
Umm... I do not natural gas-power anything. and yes they are raping us all on electricity. And I would have to agree with you on your sort-of point #3 Electricity is not a necessity, but lets just call it popular,,,and any way YOU would care to slice it ,the charges we pay for electric service is at best, a ripoff to the end-user. That is my opinion and I am entitled to that. Totally okay with me if you do not agree.
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 10:28:23 PM
Um. You are in a thread talking about how a government run institution is overcharging citizens for basic services.
This is getting old,
"What is a fair rate to pay for electricity?" You still haven't answered that one, puddinghead.
QuoteYou are defending that um....good government, puddinghead. You and the other faux liberty shouter are the only ones on the side of Big Government in this case.
You tell me it's big government from one side of your mouth and then you tell me it's being run like a private corporation with a monopoly, which is it? If it were, big government, they would have no problem rolling out a program for dear Mrs. Butterfield, who can't afford her electric bill because the SS check is a little light this month. Then Johnny Twoshoes figures out he can cry a sob story and get his bill payed by BIG GOVERNMENT too, and it continues. Instead they do run it like a business - one that's here to make money, and you don't believe this, but I do - if they didn't do it the way they were, we'd be paying 12% - 20% more than what we do now - every month.
Go read some of ChrisW's genius articles on deregulation of the electric industry and let me know how that went.
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 10:40:55 PM
Umm... I do not natural gas-power anything. and yes they are raping us all on electricity. And I would have to agree with you on your sort-of point #3 Electricity is not a necessity, but lets just call it popular,,,and any way YOU would care to slice it ,the charges we pay for electric service is at best, a ripoff to the end-user. That is my opinion and I am entitled to that. Totally okay with me if you do not agree.
Not a problem. But let me ask you the same question that I've asked everyone on this thread and others, "What is a fair amount to pay for electric service?" And I think it's a fair question. Most here tell of their extensive travels and living in other places, well, what did it cost there? Did you feel ripped off there to? How would it compare side by side with what you have now? How would you run the electric company?
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 10:45:26 PM
So are you still defending the Big Government taking your money for bs reasons?
If you call maintaining OUR infrastructure bs, then yeah, all for it.
QuoteBy the way, you still owe that 500 dollars. Can you forward a mailing address?
Why don't you give me your's, I'll send you a check. BTW, after it bounces, are you still going to let me have whatever bs I'm paying for?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 10:44:43 PM
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 10:40:55 PM
Umm... I do not natural gas-power anything. and yes they are raping us all on electricity. And I would have to agree with you on your sort-of point #3 Electricity is not a necessity, but lets just call it popular,,,and any way YOU would care to slice it ,the charges we pay for electric service is at best, a ripoff to the end-user. That is my opinion and I am entitled to that. Totally okay with me if you do not agree.
Not a problem. But let me ask you the same question that I've asked everyone on this thread and others, "What is a fair amount to pay for electric service?" And I think it's a fair question. Most here tell of their extensive travels and living in other places, well, what did it cost there? Did you feel ripped off there to? How would it compare side by side with what you have now? How would you run the electric company?
I have no experience in running an Electric Company. To answer your question as intelligently as I know how, I would charge the end user cost (Operating Costs ..that is fuel , employees with reasonable salaries. you asked my position and I am giving it. My point is there is at JEA, as there is every where,,room to make cuts. There are probably many employees that are paid a fair and reasonable salary. I feel pretty certain ( though I well COULD be wrong ) that cuts/ adjustments could be made, and we would end up paying at least 20% less on Electric , Water , and Sewer. Just my opinion. Laugh if you like. :) Hurts my feelings , not ! :)
:)
No, this is more like it;
(http://netrightdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Baghdad-Bob.jpg)
"There is NO overcharging at JEA..."
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 10:56:32 PM
Well, you certainly are a peice of work. Why didnt you just own up to communism a long time ago?
Well now that we know each other soooo well, I'll go ahead and share a pic with you guys of ole Mom and Dad....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Hl5bQduRAMc/TIwlB1NxJqI/AAAAAAAAIU4/l1NgAOE1RPs/s1600/courthouseAG+copy.jpg)
Anyway, for January I paid 14.8 cents per kWh to JEA and 10.1 cents per kWh to ComEd.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 11:15:57 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 08, 2011, 10:56:32 PM
Well, you certainly are a peice of work. Why didnt you just own up to communism a long time ago?
Well now that we know each other soooo well, I'll go ahead and share a pic with you guys of ole Mom and Dad....
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Hl5bQduRAMc/TIwlB1NxJqI/AAAAAAAAIU4/l1NgAOE1RPs/s1600/courthouseAG+copy.jpg)
You're kidding, Right? ;)
Quote from: Lunican on February 08, 2011, 05:16:25 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1181768941_AUPsd-X2.jpg)
So let's plug your usage into their bill estimator and:
QuoteMonth Usage (kWh) Delivery
Charge Energy
Supply
Charge TOTAL
Bill
Estimate
Jan 329 $22.51 $25.18 $47.69
TOTAL 329 $22.51 $25.18 $47.69
* Totals may vary due to rounding.
Wow, seems like you saved a dollar? But wait, there's more.....
If you care to read the fine print under the estimator tool you see this:
QuoteDisclaimer: The Bill Estimator Tool has been created for educational purposes only. Actual charges may vary depending on customer usage patterns, seasonal variations, or other factors. Not all possible combinations of Rates and Riders have been included in this tool. The tool does not include franchise cost additions, other applicable adders, any taxes that are applicable to ComEd service or adjustments that might be applicable under the Residential Rate Stabilization Plan.
Although every effort has been taken to ensure correct information in content and calculations, ComEd provides no warranty, express or implied, of any information in the Bill Estimator Tool. The Bill Estimator Tool is offered on an AS IS basis, and ComEd is not liable for any damages whatsoever which result from using the information contained in this web site.
Prices used herein are best-known values and will be updated, when applicable, per Tariffs on file with the Illinois Commerce Commission.
So you may qualify for some riders, but they also didn't figure in their taxes (I mean your taxes), which means that you're probably paying more there. Those are just facts.
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 11:26:09 PM
You're kidding, Right? ;)
Mostly. Mom does have blue eyes.
:) I am not here to attack anyone. I think JEA's rates are grossly high. I think they could be lower. Will it happen? not on your life. :) Not unless somehow , someway it is differently managed.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 11:32:44 PM
Quote from: Lunican on February 08, 2011, 05:16:25 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1181768941_AUPsd-X2.jpg)
So let's plug your usage into their bill estimator and:
QuoteMonth Usage (kWh) Delivery
Charge Energy
Supply
Charge TOTAL
Bill
Estimate
Jan 329 $22.51 $25.18 $47.69
TOTAL 329 $22.51 $25.18 $47.69
* Totals may vary due to rounding.
Wow, seems like you saved a dollar? But wait, there's more.....
If you care to read the fine print under the estimator tool you see this:
QuoteDisclaimer: The Bill Estimator Tool has been created for educational purposes only. Actual charges may vary depending on customer usage patterns, seasonal variations, or other factors. Not all possible combinations of Rates and Riders have been included in this tool. The tool does not include franchise cost additions, other applicable adders, any taxes that are applicable to ComEd service or adjustments that might be applicable under the Residential Rate Stabilization Plan.
Although every effort has been taken to ensure correct information in content and calculations, ComEd provides no warranty, express or implied, of any information in the Bill Estimator Tool. The Bill Estimator Tool is offered on an AS IS basis, and ComEd is not liable for any damages whatsoever which result from using the information contained in this web site.
Prices used herein are best-known values and will be updated, when applicable, per Tariffs on file with the Illinois Commerce Commission.
So you may qualify for some riders, but they also didn't figure in their taxes (I mean your taxes), which means that you're probably paying more there. Those are just facts.
Yeah OK there, Blogdad Bob...
?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 11:32:44 PM
So you may qualify for some riders, but they also didn't figure in their taxes (I mean your taxes), which means that you're probably paying more there. Those are just facts.
I don't really understand your post. I used less electricity in Jacksonville and was billed more.
JEA: 329kWh = $48.71
ComEd: 426kWh = $46.55
Quote from: Timkin on February 08, 2011, 11:38:35 PM
:) I am not here to attack anyone. I think JEA's rates are grossly high. I think they could be lower. Will it happen? not on your life. :) Not unless somehow , someway it is differently managed.
See the attached bill, I guess that means that ComEd is even grosser. I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just saying that it's not always greener..... - and using their own comparisons to prove my points.
Quote from: Lunican on February 08, 2011, 11:41:15 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 11:32:44 PM
So you may qualify for some riders, but they also didn't figure in their taxes (I mean your taxes), which means that you're probably paying more there. Those are just facts.
I don't really understand your post. I used less electricity in Jacksonville and was billed more.
JEA: 329kWh = $48.71
ComEd: 426kWh = $46.55
What's not to understand, plugged your JEA usage into
their bill estimator and it came out more expensive. I didn't see your other bill, that's why I prefaced with the rider statement and finished with probably. If I'm wrong, then so be it. - According to their own website, you would be paying more.
N.R.W.--
Do you happen to have the rate per kwh from , say 2 years ago? Was not accusing you or anyone of attacking just saying I (Timkin) was not in this debate ,intent on attacking .. I just happen to agree with the majority that JEA is Outrageous on their billing rates , and policies, even if some of them are standard . I do not think they should charge money for something a person does not use. Yes the Phone and Cable do the same thing, in a sense. One at least has the leverage of an alternative source for either of these utilities. NOT SO for electricity, unless of course you are fortunate enough to have the means for buying your own generator or Solar Power source.
On initial look, from Dec. '07 to June '10, I have found some things:
The rates increased 23.3% for 1000 kwh. [cue the fatalists]
but,
Their Operating expenses during the same time increased 19.4%
and
Their Fuel costs (part of their operating expense) increased 35.8% over the same period, so they did cut back somewhere, but I didn't crunch all the numbers to find out.
But like any good statistician, I've thrown you the ones that support my take on this - everyone's costs have gone up in the last few years, and IMO, JEA hasn't stuck it to us. They've increased our prices as their costs increase.
One thing that you should note, is that they set their price for the year. So someone has to SWAG it based on what their crystal ball tells them the market is going to do for the next 12 months.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 09, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
On initial look, from Dec. '07 to June '10, I have found some things:
The rates increased 23.3% for 1000 kwh. [cue the fatalists]
but,
Their Operating expenses during the same time increased 19.4%
and
Their Fuel costs (part of their operating expense) increased 35.8% over the same period, so they did cut back somewhere, but I didn't crunch all the numbers to find out.
But like any good statistician, I've thrown you the ones that support my take on this - everyone's costs have gone up in the last few years, and IMO, JEA hasn't stuck it to us. They've increased our prices as their costs increase.
One thing that you should note, is that they set their price for the year. So someone has to SWAG it based on what their crystal ball tells them the market is going to do for the next 12 months.
I would be terribly curious......
What has JEA's ACTUAL (NECESSARY) operating cost increases been from 07 -Present? ( I am not asking to factor in Pay Raises and Bonuses ,but they of course DO factor into the increase.)
Would COMPLETELY AGREE the cost of EVERYTHING has gone up. I still maintain.. If your cable gets ridiculously high , you have alternative choices, you can make CUTS . Same is true for Telephone , or use of your Automobile, Cuts can be made to reduce expenses. To a tiny (very tiny)degree use of electricity can save a couple of bucks.
Bottom line.. I live in the same house I lived in in 2006. Now it has a more efficient A/C Heating System than when I first moved in... Changing that out reduced the monthly bill... my electric AVERAGE during Spring /Summer /Fall Rarely cost me 120.00 /month. Cold Weather and the use of heating , as for everyone raised this somewhat but ,even so I never (until this year) had a heating bill that EXCEEDED 200.00 /month. This past month, my light bill was a shade over $300.00 yet there is still just me and I still use the same average ( actually just a little less kwh than one year ago)
My opinion is the increase has a little to do with fuel cost, some to do with taxes and MUCH to do with some of the higher-end salaries at JEA. If someone would like to , or has a way to break down JEA's actual costs I am open to listening .. Until then, I maintain they are a R I P O F F ! ! !
Quote from: Timkin on February 09, 2011, 12:32:29 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 09, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
On initial look, from Dec. '07 to June '10, I have found some things:
The rates increased 23.3% for 1000 kwh. [cue the fatalists]
but,
Their Operating expenses during the same time increased 19.4%
and
Their Fuel costs (part of their operating expense) increased 35.8% over the same period, so they did cut back somewhere, but I didn't crunch all the numbers to find out.
But like any good statistician, I've thrown you the ones that support my take on this - everyone's costs have gone up in the last few years, and IMO, JEA hasn't stuck it to us. They've increased our prices as their costs increase.
One thing that you should note, is that they set their price for the year. So someone has to SWAG it based on what their crystal ball tells them the market is going to do for the next 12 months.
I would be terribly curious......
What has JEA's ACTUAL (NECESSARY) operating cost increases been from 07 -Present? ( I am not asking to factor in Pay Raises and Bonuses ,but they of course DO factor into the increase.)
Would COMPLETELY AGREE the cost of EVERYTHING has gone up. I still maintain.. If your cable gets ridiculously high , you have alternative choices, you can make CUTS . Same is true for Telephone , or use of your Automobile, Cuts can be made to reduce expenses. To a tiny (very tiny)degree use of electricity can save a couple of bucks.
Bottom line.. I live in the same house I lived in in 2006. Now it has a more efficient A/C Heating System than when I first moved in... Changing that out reduced the monthly bill... my electric AVERAGE during Spring /Summer /Fall Rarely cost me 120.00 /month. Cold Weather and the use of heating , as for everyone raised this somewhat but ,even so I never (until this year) had a heating bill that EXCEEDED 200.00 /month. This past month, my light bill was a shade over $300.00 yet there is still just me and I still use the same average ( actually just a little less kwh than one year ago)
My opinion is the increase has a little to do with fuel cost, some to do with taxes and MUCH to do with some of the higher-end salaries at JEA. If someone would like to , or has a way to break down JEA's actual costs I am open to listening .. Until then, I maintain they are a R I P O F F ! ! !
Wasn't the reason the bill was much cheaper back then because the previous CEO did some tinkering with the rates and used up all the reserve cash till it ran out? Something like JEA was operating at a loss for a few years because the previous CEO was afraid to raise rates.
I think someone here mentioned something about that.
Possibly. Can that be proven?
Quote from: Timkin on February 09, 2011, 02:34:40 PM
Possibly. Can that be proven?
This link was provided by BT earlier in the thread, the quarterly financials give you a good overall picture.
http://www.jea.com/about/pub/index.asp
What argument?
That JEA can and will charge delinquent (residential) accounts an additional deposit?
That JEA's base rate is one of the lowest in the state?
That I don't think that JEA is some big conspiracy theory?
I haven't argues so much as disproved others' theories with facts gleaned from the web.
You still haven't told me what a fair price for electricity is. You still haven't backed up any of your name-dropping posts with a solid fact. Your theories are just that. I'm sorry if the financial side of it bores you and is too reality based, that you have to repeatedly go back to name calling and talking down, but numbers are facts and heresay is,well, heresay. My thoughts on the matter have been backed by public accounting records. You can't reasonably argue that.
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 03:33:27 PM
You have served to point out exactly that the advertised rates and claims of the JEA are false, as you are actively telling people what their bills should be, and yet they are higher. The JEA claims a low rate, which you yourself have demonstrated is not possible to get unless you order (and pay for) a special meter which tracks the time at which energy is consumed.
Their advertised rate is
not the one you get with the TOD meter, they advertise the .06 - the base rate for all residential leveraged service.
QuoteYou have not provided a clear reason why the additional profits have not been applied to a general lowering of the rates instead of a steady and repeated series of rate hikes, nor have you justified why a board of government board of directors should be allowed to accumulate a billion dollar investment pool to be deployed for the benefit of a group other than the taxpayers who own the utility.
As I'm still actually working on this. The cost of service has increased and so has the cost of running the business. Fuel costs skyrocketed compared to our rate increases. I am still plundering through financial docs to get to the bottom of it. Yes, our rates increased about 4% more than their costs, but why? I'm still working that part. The other side of it, the pool of money, I probably won't find out much on. I have no clue how much a company that size requires in liquid assets to maintain their credit ratings. I have no clue what they need for a rainy day. I am trying to figure out how/if that amount has offset their increases. This takes time and I'm not done.
QuoteIn fact, you don't even seem to be aware of what the basic criticism of the JEA actually is. You have proven this in the above referenced post, in which you seem to be fundamentally incapable of understanding that a Publicly owned Utility is not supposed to behave as a private corporation.
Why? Why shouldn't some parts of government be self-sustaining? I took Chris' comment and started researching deregulation of energy, and it has been a catastophe in every case. Nutshell version, the local company that was in place still sets the base rate that the other proveder mark-up from there, so you end up fundamentally with an oligopoly controlled by a govt ran monopoly. Talk about shady.
QuoteMore laughably, you also seem to think that you are defending Private enterprise against the 'socialists'.
A more sensible person would be embarrassed to find out that they are defending a government entity with a monopoly, considering.
The JEA was granted a monopoly based on its agreement to abide by certain principle which benefited its owners, which are the taxpayers of duval county. This fact has been blithely ignored by you.
And keeping reserves and not running the company in the hole, and by showing net worth, they keep their bond ratings up which allows them to expand without raising their prices in the sake of expansion. You keep saying that I'm blind to the facts, but I think tha you're just being naive to the reality. Who does it benefit in the long run if they gave us a 3% reduction on services? What do they do next year when fuel costs go up 25% instead of their typical 8%-9%? You're going to end up with a situation that we have in the insurance industry - no new rate increases and then BAM - we're hitting all policy holders up for an additional 40% this year becaue we had an extra hurricane. That's not good for anyone at anytime.
QuoteYour argument, if you can be said to have one, seems to revolve around the idea that this government body should be allowed to function like a very predatory private institution.
What makes your argument fail, is that you simply cannot tell the difference between the two.
In this case, they are one in the same. That's not an argument, it's just the way it is.
Ok there, Blogdad Bob...
(http://sayanythingblog.com/files/2010/11/Baghdad-Bob-746275.gif)
"There is NOTHING wrong at JEA..."
:)
This is my new fav thread, they are one and the same....just like Egypt is a democracy AND a totalitarian state, I mean they did get to mark a ballet right?!
I'll tell you what, Billy S., maybe anonymity is better for blogs. Let's drop the charade and quit belittling everything that's posted on a subject that you apparently have no knack for - business acumen and finances - both of which are being discussed here. There's no need for rumors and untruths. Actual research and a little reality check would do you some good. I'm actually pretty good at researching, BTW. ;)
Quote from: cityimrov on February 09, 2011, 03:22:56 AM
Quote from: Timkin on February 09, 2011, 12:32:29 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 09, 2011, 12:19:03 AM
On initial look, from Dec. '07 to June '10, I have found some things:
The rates increased 23.3% for 1000 kwh. [cue the fatalists]
but,
Their Operating expenses during the same time increased 19.4%
and
Their Fuel costs (part of their operating expense) increased 35.8% over the same period, so they did cut back somewhere, but I didn't crunch all the numbers to find out.
But like any good statistician, I've thrown you the ones that support my take on this - everyone's costs have gone up in the last few years, and IMO, JEA hasn't stuck it to us. They've increased our prices as their costs increase.
One thing that you should note, is that they set their price for the year. So someone has to SWAG it based on what their crystal ball tells them the market is going to do for the next 12 months.
I would be terribly curious......
What has JEA's ACTUAL (NECESSARY) operating cost increases been from 07 -Present? ( I am not asking to factor in Pay Raises and Bonuses ,but they of course DO factor into the increase.)
Would COMPLETELY AGREE the cost of EVERYTHING has gone up. I still maintain.. If your cable gets ridiculously high , you have alternative choices, you can make CUTS . Same is true for Telephone , or use of your Automobile, Cuts can be made to reduce expenses. To a tiny (very tiny)degree use of electricity can save a couple of bucks.
Bottom line.. I live in the same house I lived in in 2006. Now it has a more efficient A/C Heating System than when I first moved in... Changing that out reduced the monthly bill... my electric AVERAGE during Spring /Summer /Fall Rarely cost me 120.00 /month. Cold Weather and the use of heating , as for everyone raised this somewhat but ,even so I never (until this year) had a heating bill that EXCEEDED 200.00 /month. This past month, my light bill was a shade over $300.00 yet there is still just me and I still use the same average ( actually just a little less kwh than one year ago)
My opinion is the increase has a little to do with fuel cost, some to do with taxes and MUCH to do with some of the higher-end salaries at JEA. If someone would like to , or has a way to break down JEA's actual costs I am open to listening .. Until then, I maintain they are a R I P O F F ! ! !
Wasn't the reason the bill was much cheaper back then because the previous CEO did some tinkering with the rates and used up all the reserve cash till it ran out? Something like JEA was operating at a loss for a few years because the previous CEO was afraid to raise rates.
I think someone here mentioned something about that.
Afraid to raise rates to cover increased salaries maybe. Where did that money go? straight into their pockets. While fuel costs have increased, no doubt about it- coal is the cheapest fuel to produce electricity and our rates are just not that much lower than other areas using better, but more expensive fuel options.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 09, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
Ok there, Blogdad Bob...
(http://sayanythingblog.com/files/2010/11/Baghdad-Bob-746275.gif)
"There is NOTHING wrong at JEA..."
wait..so are you now insinuating that redneck and I are the same person ;)
Quote from: Lunican on February 08, 2011, 11:18:00 PM
Anyway, for January I paid 14.8 cents per kWh to JEA and 10.1 cents per kWh to ComEd.
So electricity in Chicago is significantly cheaper than Jax despite all of the irrelevant comments. These aren't estimates... they are actual bills side by side including all taxes, charges, and convenience fees.
Quote from: Lunican on February 08, 2011, 11:41:15 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 08, 2011, 11:32:44 PM
So you may qualify for some riders, but they also didn't figure in their taxes (I mean your taxes), which means that you're probably paying more there. Those are just facts.
I don't really understand your post. I used less electricity in Jacksonville and was billed more.
JEA: 329kWh = $48.71
ComEd: 426kWh = $46.55
It's the same story even within florida, FP&L is significantly cheaper, so is GRU and basically every other company.
When the power is out and the JEA truck pulls up -- everybody!
;D
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 27, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
It's the same story even within florida, FP&L is significantly cheaper, so is GRU and basically every other company.
not true...data shows that JEA is pretty much in the middle when it comes to utility costs in Florida
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 27, 2013, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 27, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
It's the same story even within florida, FP&L is significantly cheaper, so is GRU and basically every other company.
not true...data shows that JEA is pretty much in the middle when it comes to utility costs in Florida
Bullshit.
I have the opportunity to compare an account with FP&L to what I pay here. Not even close.
The only thing they have done in my lifetime that I appreciate is the my budget option. I absolutely love my light bill being the same amount every month, give or take a few dollars. Its alot less stressful and I can manage my money better. Otherwise, they suck
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 28, 2013, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 27, 2013, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 27, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
It's the same story even within florida, FP&L is significantly cheaper, so is GRU and basically every other company.
not true...data shows that JEA is pretty much in the middle when it comes to utility costs in Florida
Bullshit.
I have the opportunity to compare an account with FP&L to what I pay here. Not even close.
that's one utility....there are close to 30 in the state
here's some info. on the municipal ones...take a look at August 2013, note the average price (which includes base) and how JEA compares.
http://publicpower.com/electric-rate-comparisons/
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 28, 2013, 08:28:35 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 28, 2013, 08:49:53 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 27, 2013, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 27, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
It's the same story even within florida, FP&L is significantly cheaper, so is GRU and basically every other company.
not true...data shows that JEA is pretty much in the middle when it comes to utility costs in Florida
Bullshit.
I have the opportunity to compare an account with FP&L to what I pay here. Not even close.
that's one utility....there are close to 30 in the state
here's some info. on the municipal ones...take a look at August 2013, note the average price (which includes base) and how JEA compares.
http://publicpower.com/electric-rate-comparisons/
JEA distorts their numbers by not including add-ons such as the franchise fee in their reported figures that are used for comparison to other utilities. I suspect, and this is from personal experience in comparing GRU and FP&L bills to my JEA bill, and handling areas of work where I regularly come into contact with people's utility bills, that JEA is probably the second-highest in the state after key west. And this is 'supposed' to be a nonprofit publicly owned utility. Yet its rates are trounced by all manner of for-profit companies. Not endearing.
JEA I have no problem with you and paying online is Number One to me. Great Job! 8)
Quote from: stephendare on September 29, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 29, 2013, 02:57:48 PM
JEA I have no problem with you and paying online is Number One to me. Great Job! 8)
Your employees are stealing from you, but hey, at least they give you the option of enabling you to do that via the inter webs. Awesome.
Meanwhile, how are you going to pay the cops the back money you owe them again?
(Your employees are stealing from you, but hey, at least they give you the option of enabling you to do that via the inter webs. Awesome.
Meanwhile, how are you going to pay the cops the back money you owe them again?) :o WTF?
I also have no issue with JEA electric rates....the base sewer/water rate is a bit excessive though
I have lived all over the country... NO ONE LOVES THEIR UTILITY! Everyone thinks their power and water rates are too high... ::)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 30, 2013, 06:41:52 AM
I have lived all over the country... NO ONE LOVES THEIR UTILITY! Everyone thinks their power and water rates are too high... ::)
(NO ONE LOVES THEIR UTILITY!) Why Not? If you use the power and the water that is your Fault! The only things that are on in my house is my computer, refrigerator, stove, water heater, A/C set at 80, lights when I need them and my TV when I watch it. ;)
The problem with JEA water rates is that they discourage conservation. They claim that they charge more for water usage above 6,000 gallons but the high service availability charges make that not true. 2.85 cents per gallon for 2,000 gallons is very high.
Quote from: Lunican on September 30, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
The problem with JEA water rates is that they discourage conservation. They claim that they charge more for water usage above 6,000 gallons but the high service availability charges make that not true. 2.85 cents per gallon for 2,000 gallons is very high.
There are environmental impact fees that do raise the cost of water if you use an excessive amount. The reality is that you just use very little water, so of course it's going to make your cost per gallon seem really high. It's no different if you had electrical service at a place and had nothing plugged in and running off power except a nightlight that consumed a fraction of a kWh a month. If you were to do the same math on that, it's going to make it seem like you're paying hundreds of dollars per kWh. There are costs associated with ensuring a service is available to you whether or not you use a significant amount of it.
Quote from: Lunican on September 30, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
$2.85 cents per gallon for 2,000 gallons is very high.
And virtually undrinkable to boot.
10. Jacksonville, Fla. (JEA)
Located on the northeast coast of Florida, Jacksonville is the state's largest city. According to EWG, 23 different toxic chemicals were found in Jacksonville's water supply. The chemicals most frequently discovered in high volumes were trihalomethanes, which consist of four different cleaning byproducts — one of which is chloroform. Many trihalomethanes are believed to be carcinogenic.
Over the five-year testing period, unsafe levels of trihalomethanes were detected during each of the 32 months of testing, and levels deemed illegal by the EPA were detected in 12 of those months. During at least one testing period, trihalomethane levels were measured at nearly twice the EPA legal limit. Chemicals like arsenic and lead were also detected at levels exceeding health guidelines.
http://ybertaud9.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/top-10-u-s-cities-with-the-worst-drinking-water/
And even if we place a water filtration system at the sink, what about the water with which we bathe, shower, cook with, and wash our clothes? Consider that the water we absorb from a 10 minute shower may be greater than the amount we drink all day long!
Welcome to the forum DLC... 8)
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 29, 2013, 07:51:38 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 29, 2013, 03:11:11 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 29, 2013, 02:57:48 PM
JEA I have no problem with you and paying online is Number One to me. Great Job! 8)
Your employees are stealing from you, but hey, at least they give you the option of enabling you to do that via the inter webs. Awesome.
Meanwhile, how are you going to pay the cops the back money you owe them again?
(Your employees are stealing from you, but hey, at least they give you the option of enabling you to do that via the inter webs. Awesome.
Meanwhile, how are you going to pay the cops the back money you owe them again?) :o WTF?
# 1 on my list. Congratulations. For saying one of the Dumbest comments you have said in response to my Answer?"JEA I have no problem with you and paying online is Number One to me. Great Job! 8)