Can Downtown Survive?

[Fallen Buckeye]

Changing one way streets to two way will benefit pedestrians and DT businesses at the expense of motorists (slower speeds) and taxpayers (cost of the switch).  I'm a DT resident and I'm leaning in favor of it.

Although you could argue that if the business environment is better then they would pull in more tax dollars in the long run. Basically it's an investment.

[RockStar]

Um, are the one way streets really that confusing to people? Because that's just sad. Country mouse needs to visit city mouse more often...

No they're not confusing, it's just annoying. Who wants to drive in 10-block circles waiting at 50 red lights just to try and get to something that's located on a 1-way street? It's a hassle, and same as the parking meters and draconian enforcement policies, people will get sick of hassles and quit coming.

10 block circles and 50 red lights? Which downtown are you talking about?

[ChriswUfGator]

I agree with JC - It is legitimate for us to determine the merits of eliminating one-way streets in downtown.  There could be unintended consequences if we move forward without weighing the advantages and disadvantages.

As for me, I would personally prefer a trip around the block to make a left hand turn over waiting for oncoming traffic to clear so I could make that left-hand turn. 
Furthermore, there is also the danger of those who would rather gamble and make a risky left-hand turn in front of oncoming traffic than yield for a few more seconds.

Then incorporate turn arrows in the left-turn lanes. Problem solved.

[ChriswUfGator]

Um, are the one way streets really that confusing to people? Because that's just sad. Country mouse needs to visit city mouse more often...

No they're not confusing, it's just annoying. Who wants to drive in 10-block circles waiting at 50 red lights just to try and get to something that's located on a 1-way street? It's a hassle, and same as the parking meters and draconian enforcement policies, people will get sick of hassles and quit coming.

10 block circles and 50 red lights? Which downtown are you talking about?

This one. And I may have been exaggerating to make a point...but not by much.

Most people have to go in large circles downtown (well, squares to be accurate), waiting at a bunch of redlights in the process, to get anywhere because of the 1-way street grid. Eliminating that would make things much more user-friendly. The 1-ways were implemented to handle a level of traffic that our downtown hasn't seen in 30 years and probably will never see again.

At this point, it's just an unnecessary hassle that serves no purpose. Why not get rid of it.

[ChriswUfGator]

Besides, most of the intersections down there have big "No Turn on Red" signs anyway, so it's a moot point...

No they don't...I do it all the time...the only ones that restrict turns on red are those with very high pedestrian crossings

As for your parking assertions....downtown has 44,000 total parking paces w/ 20,000 being in the core...this includes the garages/lots that charge....metered spaces only accounts for about 1,600.

Employment is 51,000 in all of downtown, with 18,000 in the core itself.

How many people do you think would use the pay lots/garages if all the street parking was free with no restrictions?

Tufsu, that 51,000 figure is outrageously inaccurate. I suspect it probably includes at least the Southbank, probably some other areas that shouldn't be getting lumped in as well, and what's the date on that? The study you got that figure from is probably printed on papyrus...

There's a few thousand workers on the Northbank, max. And most of those are probably working for the City in one capacity or another and have their own dedicated parking anyway. 51,000 people, no way that's accurate.

[JC]

51,000 seems pretty high, where does that number come from?

[thelakelander]

Employment is 51,000 in all of downtown, with 18,000 in the core itself.

Tufsu, that 51,000 figure is outrageously inaccurate. I suspect it probably includes at least the Southbank, probably some other areas that shouldn't be getting lumped in as well, and what's the date on that? The study you got that figure from is probably printed on papyrus...

There's a few thousand workers on the Northbank, max. And most of those are probably working for the City in one capacity or another and have their own dedicated parking anyway. 51,000 people, no way that's accurate.

51,000 (which happens to be down from the 60,000 it had about 10 years ago) includes the Southbank, Riverside Avenue, LaVilla and the Northbank.  The 18,000 tufsu1 mentioned represents the Northbank core.

[vicupstate]

The one way streets and the meters need to go.  The sooner the better.  Parking DT could still be time-limited but free.  That would prevent office workers from leaving the garages.  

Jax has one of the most unfriendly, inconvenient DT's I have ever experienced from a pedestrian or motorist standpoint.  It is more difficult for any kind of retail establishment to thrive on a one-way street.  They often become speedways.

[ChriswUfGator]

Employment is 51,000 in all of downtown, with 18,000 in the core itself.

Tufsu, that 51,000 figure is outrageously inaccurate. I suspect it probably includes at least the Southbank, probably some other areas that shouldn't be getting lumped in as well, and what's the date on that? The study you got that figure from is probably printed on papyrus...

There's a few thousand workers on the Northbank, max. And most of those are probably working for the City in one capacity or another and have their own dedicated parking anyway. 51,000 people, no way that's accurate.

51,000 (which happens to be down from the 60,000 it had about 10 years ago) includes the Southbank, Riverside Avenue, LaVilla and the Northbank.  The 18,000 tufsu1 mentioned represents the Northbank core.

Absolutely no way there's even 18,000 on the Northbank, that figure by itself, even broken out of the 51k figure, is still outrageously inaccurate. 5,000 or so is probably a fair representation, and even that would probably have to include all the city government workers who have their own dedicated parking and so aren't part of this debate anyhow.

And why is he throwing around that 51,000 figure anyway, if he knows that includes Riverside and the Southbank? That's completely misleading.

[thelakelander]

Because the Southbank and Riverside Avenue (Brooklyn) are officially considered a part of DT.

[CS Foltz]

Light sequencing, I believe is the perview of either DOT or JTA and is somewhat antiquated in design and timing! Certain stretches are on timers and biased for traffic flow but I would have to ask why? Timing lights has been a proven instrument for maintaining traffic flow all over the US of A! Speed limits are set and lights are sequenced to allow traffic to move at that predetermined speed! If downtown is going to have one ways moved around to account for the magnificent BRT coming, I would hope that some one somewhere has taken light timing into account.................but somehow I think this has not been considered! Bay Meadows is supposed to be on an ITS System and if it is............it is a really really dumb computer! Rush hour still is the pits! Just add some more bus stops on two lane roads without a bus pull off and watch the traffic flow to a stop......great planning! Looking forward to more of this outstanding planning and vision!

[Fallen Buckeye]

Light sequencing, I believe is the perview of either DOT or JTA and is somewhat antiquated in design and timing! Certain stretches are on timers and biased for traffic flow but I would have to ask why? Timing lights has been a proven instrument for maintaining traffic flow all over the US of A! Speed limits are set and lights are sequenced to allow traffic to move at that predetermined speed! If downtown is going to have one ways moved around to account for the magnificent BRT coming, I would hope that some one somewhere has taken light timing into account.................but somehow I think this has not been considered! Bay Meadows is supposed to be on an ITS System and if it is............it is a really really dumb computer! Rush hour still is the pits! Just add some more bus stops on two lane roads without a bus pull off and watch the traffic flow to a stop......great planning! Looking forward to more of this outstanding planning and vision!

We already have a monorail to move people within the downtown area and hopefully street cars within a few years. That would mean buses don't need to really run so much through downtown which makes those bus stops not so much of a problem. If we are able to attract residents because of dense walkable development patterns and pedestrian features are in place hopefully car traffic is reduced anyways except during special events. And for those who still insist on getting through Dodge as quick as possible they could take State/Union or 95 which could be left as is more or less. The real crux of the matter is that it isn't one magic bullet to solve the downtown situation. It's an intelligent, comprehensive approach that considers all factors that will bring back downtown because all of these problems are related.

[tufsu1]

Light sequencing, I believe is the perview of either DOT or JTA and is somewhat antiquated in design and timing!

nope...most of the signal timing systems in Florida are maintained by local governments...in the case of downtown Jax, its COJ Public Works.

And if you don't believe the job #, take it up with JEDC or DVI....each year they provide a report...I have quoted the 2009 annual report which was recently publshed.

While I think the 18,000 figure seems a bit high for the core in 2010, your 5,000 estimate is grossly low...I'm willing to bet there are more than 5,000 workers in the BOA and Modis buildings combined....heck, the Modis building alone is probably over 1 million square feet of leasable area....assuming 3 workers/1000 sf and only 50% occupancy, you still get 3300+ employees

[CS Foltz]

OK............COJ Public Works appears to be as talented as the folks at JTA when it comes to traffic control! As I have posted before, we are busy bandaiding most of our problems, if at all, traffic....downtown revival, mass transit system that is actually cost effective and user friendly......we have a ton of problems and all we do is discuss, consult and study! One of these days we might get on top of an issue before it gets out of hand! I am really looking forward to the coming elections .....it is past time to get something positive accomplished, other than spending tax dollars like there is an endless supply!

[tufsu1]

ok...we get it....you don't like anything related to COJ or JTA 

but really....have you ever driven downtown...the traffic signal timing is practically flawless....progression is good and most vehciles get through one one signal.

If anything, maybe it is too good....I say this because one can hit 10 straight green lights on State/Union by going about 40mph