Can Downtown Survive?

[tufsu1]

no....when dining at the varied establishments downtown, I usually walk or ride my bike  

[urbanlibertarian]

"If anything, maybe it is too good....I say this because one can hit 10 straight green lights on State/Union by going about 40mph."

I can corroborate this.

[Captain Zissou]

"If anything, maybe it is too good....I say this because one can hit 10 straight green lights on State/Union by going about 40mph."

I can corroborate this.

I can too, but I usually go about 45.

[ChriswUfGator]

Because the Southbank and Riverside Avenue (Brooklyn) are officially considered a part of DT.

Tufsu was acting like that figure was dispositive in the context of this debate, which was clearly never about Riverside, LaVilla, or the Southbank. And I find this especially ironic, when the very reason those areas have been more successful than the original urban core is in fact the lack of parking meters and asinine enforcement policies.

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core. Whatever study still says that must be printed on papyrus...

[ChriswUfGator]

but really....have you ever driven downtown...the traffic signal timing is practically

That's only true on State and Union Streets, which are surrounded by a total wasteland of vacant lots, and which are just conduits for everyone connecting to/from I-95 and the suburbs over by Arlington and Regency.

Most of those people aren't there for any reason that has anything to do with downtown, they're just there because that happens to be the conduit between 95 and one of our largest suburbs. I wouldn't even call them part of downtown, and they should be made into raised expressways to remove the artificial separation of Main Street and the core.

The rest of the street grid downtown isn't nearly as well synched up, and because of the asinine 1-way setup, you have to drive in giant squares and wait at a bunch of lights because you couldn't simply make a turn onto the street you were going to.

[cline]

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up? 

[ChriswUfGator]

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up?  

We'll talk about that when Tufsu posts the sources of the data claiming 18,000...

Until then, I'm not playing the double-standard game, where someone gets to blurt out whatever figure they want and then demand sources from me when I point out it's ludicrous. That in itself is ludicrous. The figure of less than 6k came directly from a horse's mouth on this one, and that figure is from last year, before taking into account the departure of Modis and the impending departure of Life of the South. Both, incidentally, left citing parking as a major concern.

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up?  

I can corroborate this.  I heard (as did the metrojacksonville board) directly from the mouth of two DVI board members that the official figure downtown is less than 6000 people.

Damn, Stephen, you just took all the fun out of it! I think it's hilarious when people blurt out random figures that make no sense, and with no documentation, and then turn around and demand that you provide enough research for a senior thesis in order to disagree with their unsupported claims. I was going to toy with that mouse just a little longer...

[cline]

Damn, Stephen, you just took all the fun out of it! I think it's hilarious when people blurt out random figures that make no sense, and with no documentation, and then turn around and demand that you provide enough research for a senior thesis in order to disagree with their unsupported claims. I was going to toy with that mouse just a little longer...

The numbers came from DVI (as was mentioned earlier in the thread).  DVI's own website states that the core has over 18,000 workers.  

http://downtownjacksonville.org/about-downtown/demographics-and-statistics/

[ChriswUfGator]

Damn, Stephen, you just took all the fun out of it! I think it's hilarious when people blurt out random figures that make no sense, and with no documentation, and then turn around and demand that you provide enough research for a senior thesis in order to disagree with their unsupported claims. I was going to toy with that mouse just a little longer...

That's interesting considereing DVI's website states that the core has over 18,000 workers.  

http://downtownjacksonville.org/about-downtown/demographics-and-statistics/

Those figures are outdated, as I've pointed out from the beginning...

DVI's board knows the true current figure, and it's less than 6k.

[tufsu1]

That's only true on State and Union Streets, which are surrounded by a total wasteland of vacant lots, and which are just conduits for everyone connecting to/from I-95 and the suburbs over by Arlington and Regency.

actually Main/Ocean work pretty well too...as do Forsyth/Bay.

[tufsu1]

And I still say there's no way in hell there's 18,000 workers in the Northbank core.

Do you have any data to back this up?  

I can corroborate this.  I heard (as did the metrojacksonville board) directly from the mouth of two DVI board members that the official figure downtown is less than 6000 people.

I call BS on this....the City alone has about 7,000 employees (and most of them are downtown).

If you have some data to back up your assertion, please provide.

[cline]

Damn, Stephen, you just took all the fun out of it! I think it's hilarious when people blurt out random figures that make no sense, and with no documentation, and then turn around and demand that you provide enough research for a senior thesis in order to disagree with their unsupported claims. I was going to toy with that mouse just a little longer...

That's interesting considereing DVI's website states that the core has over 18,000 workers.  

http://downtownjacksonville.org/about-downtown/demographics-and-statistics/

Those figures are outdated, as I've pointed out from the beginning...

DVI's board knows the true current figure, and it's less than 6k.

So the report that came out last month with those numbers is outdated?

[acme54321]

Am I correct in assuming that this 6k number does not include the southbank?  Possibly this 18k number includes the southbank and the brooklyn area?  (Both of which I would consider downtown)

[ChriswUfGator]

Damn, Stephen, you just took all the fun out of it! I think it's hilarious when people blurt out random figures that make no sense, and with no documentation, and then turn around and demand that you provide enough research for a senior thesis in order to disagree with their unsupported claims. I was going to toy with that mouse just a little longer...

That's interesting considereing DVI's website states that the core has over 18,000 workers.  

http://downtownjacksonville.org/about-downtown/demographics-and-statistics/

Those figures are outdated, as I've pointed out from the beginning...

DVI's board knows the true current figure, and it's less than 6k.

So the report that came out last month with those numbers is outdated?

Yes, exactly. Because in the time since then, Life of the South has announced they are probably relocating, and they have almost 400+ workers downtown. Additionally, MPS announced they are relocating, and they have an even larger number. The 6k figure was as-of-now, but because those two large corporations are relocating to the Southside (just like everyone else who left because of the asinine parking policies) the true figure is lower. Unless you see some wisdom in using figures that include hundreds of workers who will be leaving in a few months to plan the future?

[ChriswUfGator]

Am I correct in assuming that this 6k number does not include the southbank?  Possibly this 18k number includes the southbank and the brooklyn area?  (Both of which I would consider downtown)

Those aren't downtown for the purposes of this debate, because the asinine parking policies at the heart of this debate aren't present in the Soutbank or Brooklyn. In fact, the Southbank has picked up a lot of the people who've been pulling out of the original core for the exact reason that parking isn't an expensive hassle. So including the Southbank in the figure simply disguises the impact of the parking policies in place in the core.