Floating Dock for RAM Hits Rough Waters in Finance

[grimss]

From the JAX Daily Record:

The Riverside Arts Market has been such a success that City leaders are looking for ways to make it more accessible to boaters, but City Council members were concerned on Monday that plans for a floating dock weren’t more detailed.

Finance Committee members approved the proposed ordinance 4-3, but only after debate.

A request to appropriate nearly $400,000 from the Northbank Tax Increment District Fund to develop a floating, L-shaped dock attached to the Northbank Riverwalk so boaters could access the Riverside Arts Market from the river was presented to the Committee. Members were wary about signing off on an appropriation that they weren’t sure what the money would be spent on.

Committee member John Crescimbeni pointed out that there were different sizes listed for pilings in two different proposals present for the floating dock and he was frustrated that the plans were not more defined before funds were requested for the project.

“We are working with several different things,” said Ron Barton, executive director of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission. “The design also depends on where the budget is going to come out. We might shorten the docks if we are squeezed on price.”

The statement didn’t do much to ease Crescimbeni’s concerns.

“I would’ve thought if you were up here asking us for an appropriation, we would have been a lot closer to something more final,” said Crescimbeni. “You are getting ready to lose a vote here. I’m concerned we’re not more zeroed in on this.”

The concept for the floating dock was that it would be 210 feet long with a 60-foot-long gangway attached to the Northbank Riverwalk adjacent to the northern approach of the Fuller Warren Bridge.

Finance Chair Stephen Joost stepped down from his position to comment on the project and how it would affect future budget cycles.

“Normally, I support these kinds of bills,” said Joost. “With where the budget is, I’m going to vote no. I’m looking at the bigger picture. This money could be better used in funding something else, like our pension needs. That’s the biggest single liability the City has. Not having a floating dock isn’t going to bankrupt the City.”

The proposed ordinance was passed out of Committee by a 4-3 vote with Committee members Johnny Gaffney, Ray Holt, Denise Lee and Don Redman voting for it while Crescimbeni, Joost and Clay Yarborough voted against the bill. Vice Chair Bill Bishop abstained because he is a principal with Akel, Logan & Shafer, architects and planners and he stated there may be a potential business conflict for him with the project.

In other business, although Finance members were notified Monday of a tentative settlement with Waste Management Inc., the Committee unanimously approved increasing the special counsel fees should litigation continue.

The Office of General Counsel asked the Finance Committee Monday afternoon to make $1.2 million available to pay for special counsel to assist in pending litigation. It would be a $750,000 increase over the $450,000 already set aside.

[Charles Hunter]

Uh, Councilman Joost, I don't think Northbank Tax Increment funds can be used for the pension.  Angling for the Police/Fire Union vote next cycle?

[thekillingwax]

While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

[ChriswUfGator]

While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

1: As a demographic, boaters generally have more money than your average Joe. This is good for the arts market.

2: The best boating out there is a weekend morning, while everything's still calm. You're pretty much excluding tons of people from participating in RAM because there is currently no option to combine the two events. I bet the dock would wind up paying for itself in RAM sales.

[Miss Fixit]

While I love the market- the dock seems kinda dumb to me. I know you could bring a river taxi there but realistically, how many people would this dock really bring in on a given Saturday? It'd only really be usable one day a week and I think it would take forever to break even on it.

I don't really care about the pensions but I'm sure the money could be used on something that's not just a single day item for boaters.

1: As a demographic, boaters generally have more money than your average Joe. This is good for the arts market.

2: The best boating out there is a weekend morning, while everything's still calm. You're pretty much excluding tons of people from participating in RAM because there is currently no option to combine the two events. I bet the dock would wind up paying for itself in RAM sales.

Wonder how many of those RAM merchants are collecting and paying sales tax?

[Dog Walker]

Wonder how many of those RAM merchants are collecting and paying sales tax?

All of them except the produce vendors who are not required to.  You do NOT want to mess with the Florida Division of Revenue people about sales taxes.  You would rather deal with Guido the Enforcer any day.

[Shwaz]

Uh, Councilman Joost, I don't think Northbank Tax Increment funds can be used for the pension.  Angling for the Police/Fire Union vote next cycle?

Exactly! It's not like the $400K would solve the pension funds problem either. The education and pension shortfall need long term solutions not a bandaid.

[luis_D]

First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

[stjr]

I could see spending maybe a few bucks for a simple tie up for the River Taxi at the bulkhead.  This would benefit RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general, and could be used daily by up to thousands of passengers.  But, dockage beyond that seems like an expensive waste.  It will never pay for itself, hardly be used, and take a lot of maintenance.  Also, given the location, I wouldn't be surprised if the water is too rough many times to make a nice spot for a marina.  The request for 60 foot connecting ramp may provide a clue on this.  Has anyone researched it?

[Shwaz]

First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

There is only one private dock near RAM which isn't very large at all. It could maybe accommodate the River Taxi.

[Shwaz]

I could see spending maybe a few bucks for a simple tie up for the River Taxi at the bulkhead.  This would benefit RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general, and could be used daily by up to thousands of passengers.  But, dockage beyond that seems like an expensive waste.  It will never pay for itself, hardly be used, and take a lot of maintenance.  Also, given the location, I wouldn't be surprised if the water is too rough many times to make a nice spot for a marina.  The request for 60 foot connecting ramp may provide a clue on this.  Has anyone researched it?

A 200' dock is hardly a Marina... and wouldn't "RAM, the River Walk, the Cummer, 5 Points,and Riverside, in general" also benefit from recreational boat traffic?

[ChriswUfGator]

First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

A: I own a boat and I'd visit RAM in my boat.

B: There is no existing dock (that is not on private property, and I'm really not out to be trespassed) anywhere near the RAM site than can accommodate my boat.

C: The docks nearby are all private. If you want to get Fidelity or Haskell or whatnot to open their docks to the public for RAM, then that may be a solution. My understanding is that this was already broached, and that for liability purposes the companies showed no interest in participating.

[scaleybark]

Boaters try to use the three private docks along that section of river all the time, but they get chased away.  I think a dock under the bridge would be used almost every day.  The city could charge a docking fee, or provide some utilities for a fee, to help pay for the upkeep.  I'm not sure how that would be enforced though.  Perhaps they could use parking meters (or docking meters).

[luis_D]

First of all, a market research survey needs to be conducted that asks people who attend the market and own boats whether they would visit RAM in a boat. A question on the survey should also ask all attendees of RAM whether or not they would utilize the water taxi. Data should be presented to the council before any money is spent on a new dock.

Second, alternatives to building another structure there should be explored such as rebuilding existing docks in the area or asking for permission to utilize private docks. Use of private docks could be funded by vendors at RAM if they see, based on the data in the surveys, if the dock would bring more customers. If businesses at RAM can't muster up the demand then I agree that we can't justify subsidizing the cost through city funds.

I don't know what kinds of boats the existing docks can support but I know that there are some within walking distance of RAM.(3 blocks)

A: I own a boat and I'd visit RAM in my boat.

B: There is no existing dock (that is not on private property, and I'm really not out to be trespassed) anywhere near the RAM site than can accommodate my boat.

C: The docks nearby are all private. If you want to get Fidelity or Haskell or whatnot to open their docks to the public for RAM, then that may be a solution. My understanding is that this was already broached, and that for liability purposes the companies showed no interest in participating.

There are other docks south of Memorial Park, which might still be able to be used if the owners were approached with some sort of compensation package. These docks would require that visitors walk through a good chunk of Riverside's commercial areas in order to get to RAM. Selling business leaders in Five Points on the dock idea might count for more when it comes to proposing this project to the council.

Haskell might be more approachable now that they are losing St. Joes but that is for the suits to figure out. 

The docks being private means that each owner has the flexibility to strike a deal for use with RAM. In whatever agreement that could be reached they could iron out any liability issues. Money would have to exchange hands between the dock owner and RAM, which means that it would need to be a good investment for RAM organizers.

At the end of the day I simply propose that research should be done to investigate whether or not a dock will make for a good business decision. After all, it is called Riverside Arts Market.

[Shwaz]

The idea of a millionaire homeowner turning over their private dock for public use is a stretch. Like Chris mentioned liability insurance needed would most likely be astronomical. I think you would find any of these docks both commercial & residential would need substantial improvements to handle the smallest boat traffic.

I'm kinda surprised by adversity towards the RAM water access improvement... $400K... is it really that much?