First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?

[zoo]

The key is to control sprawl

Exactly. Maybe it can't be eliminated, but it shouldn't be encouraged or facilitated with this obscene Outer Beltway idea. No Outer Beltway, less sprawl in Clay County -- sounds like control to me.

[copperfiend]

Outer Beltway............Isn't that I-295/9A?  Isn't Edgewood Ave is the origninal "inner" belt way?

Pretty much.  This will essentially be our third beltway.  So if we want to see the end result, we can easily take a look at the development patterns around the first two.

Third rate motels? fast food joints?

[thelakelander]

Bingo!  Don't expect much Class A office space to develop around a toll road.  You think parking rates downtown are a problem?  Imagine having to drop $10 - $20 dollars a day to get to the office (the cost of gas and wear and tear on your vehicle excluded).  Also don't expect much industry either.  Industry springs around rail corridors, not out of the way toll roads.

[north miami]

The "beltway" is not the brainchild of appropriate, modern day 'growth management' but rather booster ideal promoted since the 60's and 70's.Clay county Chamber of Commerce,key landowner drivers such as Reinhold/Jack Myers.Erroneous promotions as "alleviation" and 'alternative' to Blanding Blvd,which has been compromised by the same booster outlook.And they got away with it.

[north miami]

For related but typically ignored aspect see Florida Times Union  jacksonville.com Ron Littlepage Feb. 26 piece "Long term vision...." and North Miami comment.

[north miami]

Here I come, ladies and gentlemen! This is going to be my first major post and rolling in full swing by joining the causes in supporting smart solutions for Jacksonville and its greater area of their own ongoing and annoying issues. I have been lurking this website for over a year and half, and I felt like I should make my move...


The answer: Another road project?! Are you -bleepin- kidding me?! I have lived in Orange Park for almost 20 years and watched its intense growth. Orange Park actually has gotten worse and lost its own charm as a small town. I personally think Orange Park is dead. It is now full of business rubbish since it resembles as a "Las-Vegas of business." The Beltway proposal is not going to help the overall situation at all in congestion. It is hard to determine if it will have an impact on an area or few.

[north miami]

Outer Beltway............Isn't that I-295/9A?  Isn't Edgewood Ave is the origninal "inner" belt way?

Pretty much.  This will essentially be our third beltway.  So if we want to see the end result, we can easily take a look at the development patterns around the first two.

.....and Atlanta.

[stjr]

This is a post of mine from a 9B thread:

The question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:

(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.

There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so.  Could it be due to campaign contributions?  Back room deals?

[ChriswUfGator]

Who pays for the police?

Probably me, when I forget to plug in my radar detector. lol

[north miami]

This is a post of mine from a 9B thread:

The question I have is when are the residents, businesses, and political leaders of DUVAL County that support 9B and the Outer Beltway going to realize:

(1) these highways mostly benefit and promote residents moving to St. Johns and Clay Counties
(2) cost Duval taxpayers in additional infrastructure and traffic burdens within Duval
(3) fail to deliver significant offsetting revenues to Duval to pay for such burdens as most of these road users live and shop in the adjacent counties
(4) negatively impact business and residents in Duval County by siphoning off higher income residents and new businesses to the adjacent counties
(5) divert state monies from Duval mass transit projects, road improvements, and other state funded programs such as education.

There is absolutely no SANE and RATIONAL reason for Duval County politicos, if they truly represent Duval residents, to support these projects and yet they are all lined up to do so.  Could it be due to campaign contributions?  Back room deals?

Entrenched within the 'Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce' are individuals such as Clay County Reinhold Corp./Jack Myers
The Northeast Florida Regional Planning Council mirrors regional wild eyed development aspirations.

We will "realize" the implications at precisely the time at which it is too late-"Inevitable" is the term commonly employed to create a community/political climate where alarmism alternates with complacency and sense of futility.

[spuwho]

It's easy to say there are no reasons to build I-795 today, low population density, big river to cross, urban population drainage. However, it will not always be like that. To assume what we desire today is the way it will always be is very short sighted. NE Florida is destined to a be a very large logistics hub with much Asia based cargo coming through its ports. Those companies have to base themselves somewhere. There are "spin off" companies as well that will be supporting those larger firms. They will locate in low cost areas with good transportation infrastructure.

Even if it doesn't make sense to build today (toll or otherwise) it does make sense to start acquiring ROW today in anticipation of the future needs. We may not be alive when it finally comes to full fruition, but at least those with some foresight saw the needs of the future and responded appropriately.

A good example was the I-355 (& Extension) in Illinois. In the late 1980's it was debated up and down and all around about whether the thing was needed, the state had continued to acquire ROW since the 1950's in anticipation that the need would develop. By 1986 it was determined that the suburban density had reached a point that it was feasible to run as a tollroad.

It originally opened in 1989 and within 2 years it was so busy, plans started immediately to take it to 3 lanes. (Completed 1993) They recently completed the extension to Joliet and again, it was debated up and down and all around that it wasn't needed. Economic growth in the area was grown threefold. It attracted major distribution centers for its excellent locale within all routes to 3 states.

Now, in 1995 the same politicos who got I-355 worked out decided they wanted to do it again and this time tried to push through the Fox Valley Freeway to relieve traffic from IL-59. It failed miserably. Why?  Many reasons, the most important, the state never acquired any ROW in the projected path. Expensive, many home relocations and no economic benefits doomed it from the start.

It has now moved west of the Fox River. The Prairie Parkway is now being proposed. Just like the I-795 beltway in NE Florida, low population density, large river to cross (Illinois River), but the strategic value is huge as it will connect the inter-Rockford/Chicago corridor with the future Chicago airport planned for Peotone, and further into Indiana to I-65 to serve as a major reliever to the I-65/I-80/I-294 Chicago bypass. (parts of which were built in 1956 and reaching capacity)

It won't be built at the earliest 2020/2025, but they are getting the ROW now (less expensively), so as the population and business moves outward the placement is already there.

I-795 is not and will never be a Jacksonville commute zone. If anything it will provide access to the 9A/I-295 ring for easy Jaxport access. All business commutes in the future to Jax in NE Florida should be looking at non-auto alternatives. The issues that "ring roads" like this present is that they support a disproportionate amount of ring commuting, meaning someone working at Cecil will live in Nocatee, not off Normandy Road. This is what drive transit planners bonkers.

I-795 may not justify itself today, but it is strategic to NE Florida's future. It may not be in our near lifetime to use, but it has value in its planning. At the least ROW acquisition should continue.

[Mattius92]

While the points against the creation of I-795 are very good. Jacksonville has been for years a place of uncontrolled sprawl. I-795 will in the long run create more of that. However it does help two of our biggest assets: Jaxport and Mayport. However the introduction of Commuter Rail and improving the existing infastructure will totally beat spending $1.8 billion on the outer beltway. While I know that I-795 will be built. I am just hoping that better ideas for the Outer Beltway will be thought of.



JTA commuter rail project map. Now thats a smart idea.

[thelakelander]

With I-95, I-295 and 9A right up the street, the "help" for JAXPORT and Mayport will be minimal at best.  However, what this road will really do is allow greater access to the highway network for new developments springing up in that area.  Like rail, it will become an economic generator.  However, what it generates will be automobile based due to current land use regulations.

[St. Auggie]

spuwho, I think you will find that the sprawl haters on here would bring that up  as a reason against building the outerbeltway.  My favorite part though about the 355 expansion was that they started it, put up supports for overpasses etc, and then it SAT there for years before they started it again and finished it.

[thelakelander]

After seeing our city budget continuing to go belly up because of the strains low spread out development puts on its ability to provide basic municipal services, can you blame Jacksonville residents for wanting to see change?