First Coast Outer Beltway: Should it be Built?

[CS Foltz]

I agree! Just more inroads for developers that the taxpayers get to pay for...........and they wonder why we have urban sprawl! Not good for anyone other  than developers plain and simple! Infact, I think we need to declare a moratorium on more roads, interchanges and the like till we know beyond doubt we need to do it!

[heights unknown]

Not needed.  Would create a lot of jobs, but all in all it's not really needed.

"HU"

[hightowerlover]

[reednavy]

Bleh!

[jandar]

Most people state that Blanding/US17 traffic could be lessened by Light Rail.
1. Where would you place the stations?
2. Where do you run the trains from/to?
3. How do you propose to have people get to JTB/Gate Parkway/Southpoint every day and back?
4. What is the average commute time from Middleburg to JTB/Southpoint daily during rush hour and back?

If the beltway is moved slightly north, and crosses at Hibernia/Switzerland:
5. Where would the houses be built up at?
6. Would you bemoan another bridge, or would you still widen/redo the shands even if the beltway does not exist?

If Clay and St Johns are bedroom communities:
7. How would you entice the workforce to move back to JAX and stop commuting?
8. Could/Would Duval Schools compete (as a whole) to Clay or St Johns Counties?

If you could build a higher/denser work area:
9. Which side of town would you build it on and why?
10. Should any side of town be favored for growth over another?

[brainstormer]

No, No, No!  I hate everything about this proposed beltway and agree with all previous statements against building it.

[reednavy]

It is fairly simple to me. Do we need better and more ways to get into Jax from the burbs', yes. Do we need better connectivity, oh hell yes. Do we need another one or two river crossings, yes. Mass transit (rail and ferries), we needed that yesterday.

The suburbs need better ways to get into the principal city of the metro area, but this isn't the way to do it. There much cheaper and better methods than this money pit.

[thelakelander]

Here's my take.  

Most people state that Blanding/US17 traffic could be lessened by Light Rail.
1. Where would you place the stations?

Without diving too much into this, I'll go with what JTA has drawn up.

2. Where do you run the trains from/to?

See above.  Those routes would be my rail transit spines.  I would take the buses currently serving these routes and redeploy them to connect and serve areas not along the transit spines.  In the end, you would have an integrated transit system.

3. How do you propose to have people get to JTB/Gate Parkway/Southpoint every day and back?

Four options.

1. Drive on the existing streets and deal with whatever future traffic congestion brings your way.
2. Take CSX A line to downtown and transfer to FEC line.
3. Take CSX A line to I-295, connect to express bus across Buckman to Avenues, transfer to FEC line.
4. I'd scrap the Outer Beltway, but advocate for a new river crossing between the Buckman and Shands.  As a part of it's construction, I'd include lanes for transit service so you could have an express bus that connects the rail lines in Clay and St. Johns Counties.

4. What is the average commute time from Middleburg to JTB/Southpoint daily during rush hour and back?

Who would want to live in Middleburg and work near JTB?  Doesn't sound time or cost efficient.  Nevertheless, according to JTA's commuter rail feasibility study it would take 41 minutes to go from Doctors Inlet to JTB via commuter rail (CSX A into DT and transferring to FEC line).

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-commuter-rail-study-update-costs-and-ridership

If the beltway is moved slightly north, and crosses at Hibernia/Switzerland:
5. Where would the houses be built up at?

I'd be in favor of not encouraging additional unsustainable sprawl development so I'd shoot for a new bridge tying CR 210 with US 17 at Fleming Island.  It would be controversial, but I'd prefer taking out a few houses along the waterfront instead of having a $1.8 billion toll roll carve up the countryside.

6. Would you bemoan another bridge, or would you still widen/redo the shands even if the beltway does not exist?

I'd add another bridge and redo the Shands when the time came.  If you really want to impact traffic a completely separate bridge to divert trips off existing roads is your best answer, imo.

If Clay and St Johns are bedroom communities:

They are, no ifs about it.

7. How would you entice the workforce to move back to JAX and stop commuting?

I could care less if Clay and St. Johns residents moved to Jax or not.  In Jax, I'd focus on creating an urban core that can't be replicated in the suburbs to give First Coast residents a true choice in living and lifestyle options.  In Clay and St. Johns, I'd favor sustainable development over continued sprawl.

8. Could/Would Duval Schools compete (as a whole) to Clay or St Johns Counties?

I really see no difference between the school systems other than the fact that Duval has older economically depressed areas, which drag down the overall image.  Give Clay and St. Johns time and as they age and urbanize, they'll go through the same growing pains.

If you could build a higher/denser work area:
9. Which side of town would you build it on and why?

Primarily along transit lines and in area where a significant amount of public infrastructure already exists. Why?  Because it would be cheaper for taxpayers (road cost us more than anything else), preserve undeveloped land, parks, cut down on greenhouse gas emissions and vehicle miles traveled.

10. Should any side of town be favored for growth over another?

Yes.  Growth should be steered towards areas that have already been developed.  Imo, there are sections of Blanding that need just as much redevelopment as Jacksonville's urban core.  I see no need to sprawl out over the countryside when we have tons of areas in the region that can accommodate future growth needs.

[thelakelander]

I wonder would a ferry work if it connected CR 210 to Fleming Island?

[Charles Hunter]

Well the Mayport ferry loses money.

Did anybody go to the Hearing tonight?  Ock, isn't that in your neck of the woods (or fairways)?

[Lunican]

Does anyone know how many years of ferry operation could be funded by the cost of a new bridge? It might be interesting to figure that out.

[thelakelander]

Well the Mayport ferry loses money.

So does the Buckman, Fuller Warren, Acosta, Main, Hart, Matthews and Dames Point Bridges.  Despite the cooked numbers, the Outer Beltway, like the Southern Connector, will too.  However, I wonder what the loss rate will be compared to actual bridge construction and maintenance.

[Charles Hunter]

Point. 

[reednavy]

As much as we want another crossing between the Buckman and Shands Bridges, it will be nearly impossible. You have nearly completely developed shoreline on the Clay side that can be, and much of the St. Johns side is developed and/or about to be. Unless eminent domain is used, it ain't gunna happen. We're talking about multi-million dollar riverfront estates on the St. Johns side and the Clay side has sizeable homes, but a much larger number, including Fleming Island.

FDOT seriosuly needs to take a step back and realize the only necessity right now is a new, higher, and wider Shands Bridge crossing.

Between this and the Rivertown development, the state might as well take back the Scenic Route designations on S.R. 13 between Switzerland and Picolata.

[Ocklawaha]

Well the Mayport ferry loses money.

Did anybody go to the Hearing tonight?  Ock, isn't that in your neck of the woods (or fairways)?

Yes, it is in my neighborhood (sort of but WGV goes from Philips Highway to the St. Johns River, the Community "town center" is at WGPWY and I-95, and I'm South of Orangedale or Cedar Creek off SR-13) but No, I opted for MetroJacksonville's board meeting tonight, I will try and catch the March 2 date at the Clay County Fairgrounds, which is just over the river from me.

Don't assume boys and girls, the Hibernia area is pretty sparse, and using current road alignments one could get all the way to the waterfront fairly easily. The SR 210 side (which is really Greenbriar Road) is wide open on the St. Johns end and for whatever it's worth there is a HUGE airport hidden across from the schools on Greenbriar, which in the right hands could conceivably be rebuilt into something. My best guess short of it's complete destruction would be in developing a recreational, lake, equestrian trails, golf? and use the (abandoned) Switzerland Naval Air Station as a fly-in upper income estate community.

From a purely transportation guy prospective, I can see almost no value in this beltway. On the Westside we would get more bang for the asphalt buck if we laid a new slab between JAX and STARKE, as a 4 lane, limited access route from using either:

1. I-10 West to Lenox Avenue West, to Old Middleburg Road, Southwest to Taylor Road, and hence SOUTHWEST on new right of way, over Branon Field - Chaffee, over Cecil Commerce Parkway, through Jennings State Forest, over Live Oak Lane, to power line right of way, just east of Clay Hill Elementary School and SR 218, over SR-218 and follow power right of way to US-301 just north of Lawtey.  Where existing roads are effected they would be widened and rebuilt into a parkway with transit/LRT right of way built in.

2. From I-295 and Morris Avenue, a new expressway running DUE WEST from I-295 along power line right of way (parallel to, and just south of Morris) to Old Middleburg Road just below Morris, and hence Southwest per above.

3. A combination of both of the above with more emphsis on Parkway rather then Expressway interchanges.

Otherwise the only parts of this whole Outer Beltway/I-795 (complimentary roadways) scheme that makes any sense at all is the upper St. Johns County , I-95 - 9-B - I-295, and perhaps as far as SR 210. While it could be argued that there is enough traffic now or in the near future for these roads I still wouldn't support building the beltway to achieve it.

The other "sense" is the replacement of the Shand's bridge... ("WELL DAMN! STEPHEN, JUST DAMN!", The ancient one speaks, this will be the second Shand's replacement in my lifetime!!  ...Don't worry girls, Verile, vigorous, potent, and all the time you need! Age DOES have it's benefits!) But even that is not worth wrecking the fantastic infrastructure investment that the Navy made in building such a fantastic PORT/AIRPORT for Green Cove Springs. NO RESIDENT OF CLAY-DUVAL-ST. JOHNS -NASSAU-BAKER-FLAGLER-PUTNAM, SHOULD EVEN CONSIDER ALLOWING THEM TO TRASH THIS FACILITY BY RUNNING ROADS ACROSS THE END OF IT'S RUNWAYS!

To the "Gondola Clowns." Uh? Hello? This IS viable mass transit, at a low cost, and it works. I have been a party to building 2 lines as MASS TRANSIT. Further, they are NOT GONDOLA'S, they are properly called "ROPE CABLE TRAMS" or "ROPE CABLE CARS" or "ROPEWAY'S".  While it IS FUNNY to think of them running out in the belt way boonies, as an alternate way over the river, in an urban setting, they are wonderful. They work well as a self contained system, with feeder connections, for example  Edward Waters College-Florida College Downtown or toss in JU and UNF... Another thought, SHAND'S - ST. VINCENT'S - BAPTIST Hospitals. LOL! I'd love it man, I just can't see much demand from Momma and Poppa Gus's COWS!

OCKLAWAHA