Can Mayport and a cruise ship terminal co-exist?

[thelakelander]

Expect the cruise ship terminal debate to probably heat back up this year.  Can a cruise ship terminal and Mayport co-exist?

City Needs Cruise Terminal at Mayport

Submitted by Abel Harding on Sun, 02/07/2010 - 01:25.

It's time for Jacksonville to restart the discussion over the future of a cruise terminal.

The existing, temporary terminal sits on the future site of South Korean shipper Hanjin's new terminal and the agreement reached by the company and the International Longshoremen's Association has thrust the issue back to the forefront.

The new Hanjin terminal is slated for a mid-2013 opening, which leaves plenty of time for a hearty dialogue.

JaxPort purchased property in Mayport and had hoped to build a new cruise terminal on the site. Faced with vocal opposition and a sagging economy, the board tabled the idea last year.

JaxPort CEO Rick Ferrin has repeatedly highlighted the profitability of the industry and the revenue it generates for port operations.

"We are committed to keeping the cruise business in Jacksonville," JaxPort spokeswoman Nancy Rubin said as the city welcomed the return of Carnival cruise ship Fascination last week.

Florida's sour real estate environment has driven home the need for a diversified economy. A thriving cruise terminal could lure tourists to an area of the state that hasn't traditionally attracted many of them.

Strategically, a Mayport site for a cruise terminal makes the most sense. East of the Dames Point bridge and power lines, the location could attract the larger ships that are beginning to dominate the industry.

The Mayport Waterfront Partnership, an advisory group that counsels City Hall on Mayport issues, has fought the proposed terminal. It has also lodged code violation complaints with the city, objecting to what it termed a "blighted" chain-link fencing that encompasses JaxPort's property.

Luring code enforcement officers to a fishing community dotted with abandoned cars and distressed properties may not be in the best interest of the group.

Driving around the fishing community founded in 1562, it's hard not to envision how a properly constructed cruise terminal could revitalize it.

David Kulik, the new chairman of JaxPort's board, says the city needs to identify a new site by late 2012.

Kulik said the board is open to other options, but that Mayport remains at the forefront of the sites being considered.

Citing the investments Charleston, S.C., has made to attract cruise ships and the interest by the Georgia Ports Authority in attracting cruise business, Kulik says he hopes the city can get behind a new location.

"If we went back [to Mayport] and had an open discussion, we'd probably have more people responding," he said.

Ultimately, the City Council should make the decision based on what benefits the city as a whole, not necessarily what pleases a few property owners.

If the port can design a terminal and adjacent parking garage that adds character and nostalgia to Mayport, along with a smattering of retail, why shouldn't the community get behind the effort?

South Carolina and Georgia are working to capitalize on our dithering.

In 2009, 185,000 passengers boarded cruise ships at Jacksonville's current terminal. Identifying a permanent home for the terminal would only help position the city to attract even more.

Let's start the conversation.

http://jacksonville.com/interact/blog/abel_harding/2010-02-07/city_needs_cruise_terminal_at_mayport

[CS Foltz]

Mr. Kulik knows not what he speaks off! Going back today and opening a discussion again would get the same responce that took place last time. Vesco (John Rood) bought up waterfront property delibertly, not only to build more condo's but to build a Cruise Terminal. If Mayport is so enthused why have they not said.....oh yes we want a cruise terminal and all the traffic that goes with it and yes we want our water front bought up so we  can become like Neptune and Jax Beach denied acess to what was our beaches. Mayport does not seem very enthused at all.........but Jaxport sure is! What is wrong with this picture?

[thelakelander]

Can a middle ground be found?  Both have needs.  JaxPort needs a cruise terminal site east of the Dames Point and Mayport needs an economic shot in the arm.  It may be possible through good design and coordination with the community to develop a product that makes both sides winners.

[strider]

Mayport already is a navy base, so would a cruise ship terminal really harm the "historic" parts of Mayport?  By making Mayport a destination; in other words, embracing the cruise ship terminal, opening small B&B's, more restraunts and small stores so that the cruise ship people like to come early and/ or stay that extra day, as we do when we go on a cruise, then Mayport wins. And so does all of Jacksonville. I would think that the shrimpers some worry about need to collectively bargain their needs to insure they benefit from the terminal that would potentially hurt them, but that would be something the promoters of the cruise ship terminal should be more than willing to do.

[simms3]

We are not talking about taking up beach property here CS.  The property that we speak of is old docks along the riverfront that need replacing anyway.  Shrimp boats, the ferry, and Singleton's are the tenants in the area we speak.  If done properly, all can still coexist with Cruise ships, albeit in a cleaner, safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.  It is my humble opinion that these "residents" are one of three things: not so bright, a little misguided, or want to remain in the poorhouse.  They could be all three, actually.  If it comes down to it, the port and city council should just use imminent domain in this case and not include any of the old in the new.  That will really get them upset haha!  No seriously, I love Singleton's, used to go in there all the time (traveled by boat), and the shrimp boats, while a dying industry already, are cool.  What would be cooler is a nice new cruise port, a few condos across the street, a revamped marina, a rebuilt SIngleton's that still retains its character (could also be a tourist draw), same thing with Safe Harbor, and a rebuilt area for the shrimp boats.  The ferry can be part of the draw/operation.  These people that cannot see how all of this could hugely line their pockets and/or help them out should not be taken into consideration in the proposals if all they want to do is keep progress out and offer no legitimate explanation as to why.

[JeffreyS]

Can a middle ground be found?  Both have needs.  JaxPort needs a cruise terminal site east of the Dames Point and Mayport needs an economic shot in the arm.  It may be possible through good design and coordination with the community to develop a product that makes both sides winners.

A middle ground will be found as soon as the Nimbys realize this one is happening. All pretense of there being some debate about that is window dressing.
Now the sooner the residents change tactics and start demanding this and that to allow the terminal to come the more they will get out of the deal.  IMO the locals should be able to determint their own fate on this one(even though they are wrong not to want this). However they will lose this fight and should start thinking get what I can out of this.

[avonjax]

Forgive me Mayport, but you have become so depressed it's painful to drive through your little hamlet. I really love the foundations of the old buildings that line the waterfront. With such a small population and a major allergy against development and taxes, you will surely only deteriorate to the point of being a complete ghetto. God forbide the ferry ever closes down. Save the handfull of historic sights. Boost the economy of everyone. Wake up Mayport. You can't bring back the past and you don't have the economy to stop the continual depressed condition of you little village.

[Ocklawaha]

Mr. Kulik knows not what he speaks off! Going back today and opening a discussion again would get the same responce that took place last time. Vesco (John Rood) bought up waterfront property delibertly, not only to build more condo's but to build a Cruise Terminal. If Mayport is so enthused why have they not said.....oh yes we want a cruise terminal and all the traffic that goes with it and yes we want our water front bought up so we  can become like Neptune and Jax Beach denied acess to what was our beaches. Mayport does not seem very enthused at all.........but Jaxport sure is! What is wrong with this picture?

Nothing at all CS, we are Mayport! Mayport is simply a community within Jacksonville, which could easily have exited the City they love to trash, back in Consolidation. Traffic? What traffic? The Port is already talking building new access roads to Mayport and who knows, if the village pushed it, perhaps a streetcar from Downtown Atlantic and Neptune Beaches to Mayport...  Meanwhile the cars come in over a day, they park, stay a few days to a few weeks, then drive off as the ship disembarks, no rush hour conditions need prevail.

History Lesson For Mayport Mills...
Hanging on to the Mayport waterfront like Atlantic or Neptune Beaches is really a bad comparison. The US Coastal Defense had a battery at "May Port Mills" in the late 1850's. By 1861 this became Fort Steele, enlarged, enhanced, and abandoned by the Confederate State Troops. In 1862 The Federal invaders created a US Naval Coaling Station at May Port. By 1893, the village was served by three railroads, The Jacksonville and Atlantic; The Jacksonville, Mayport and Pablo Beach; and The Mayport Terminal Company, and by 1900 the Navy was joined by the railroads in creating one vast coal dump at Mayport. Hardly the French Riviera, by the end of WWII the Navy had it's own facility east of Mayport, and the railroads had converted to bunker fuel oil or diesel. This left a few old wharves and a railroad depot on stilts to sag and rot into the river, but not before it was claimed by a large post war Shrimping Fleet. Today the commercial fishing industry is on the skids in the Southeast, and our new fearless leader in Washington, seems bent on killing off whatever is left of the commercial industry and is now starting to cut deeply into the sport fishing industry.

With the military having sought out it's own quarters, the coal ships long gone, and the fishing industry drying up, just what part of the community should we save? By and Large, it's GONE and the residents who live there are largely transplants attracted to cheap housing offered in a depressed area. JPA has gone FAR, FAR, above what would be offered by most States or Ports in this country and Mayport still spits and hisses. Imagine a chance at a real "main street," a hotel or two, some retail and better housing and it costs you nothing!

We should all have such a problem!

OCKLAWAHA

[samiam]

What is the population of Mayport. I drove there every day to work for 7 years. All that is there is a few cinder block building and a few shacks. If there is anything historical left it could be Incorporated into the terminal

[samiam]

The population of the actual village cant be more that 50 to 100. The village is miles from the rest of mayport

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen.........I am really in a quandary about this one! The thought of losing another Historic Shrimping Community does distress me..........one more slice of old Florida disappearing! More condos and water front apartments and a Cruise Terminal to boot? What do the inhabitants get out of the deal...........jobs at the Terminal? Most Terminals I have been to are kind of self contained except for power and waste! Other than that a standalone entity! Shrimpers could band together, but for what.......a place to turn around outside of the channel or maybe new docks or maybe jobs at Jaxport? Something is wrong with this picture and I just can't put a finger on the issue other than it feels wrong for some reason. I don't think a Rood run empire in that area would be conducive to Mayport continuing to exist in any fashion and the use of eminent domain would be a curse that would affect Jacksonville for quite some time! Eminent domain should be a last resort not a first resort and if used, the only ones that get what they want would be the Cruise Terminal and that is flat out wrong!

[mtraininjax]

Money will prevail and all that will remain of Mayport in a few years is the name. Take pictures now, it will be gone before 2014. Money and power will push it off the map.

[thelakelander]

Gentlemen.........I am really in a quandary about this one! The thought of losing another Historic Shrimping Community does distress me..........one more slice of old Florida disappearing!

Why does it have to be either or?  Why can't history be preserved and strengthened with good well designed integrated infill?

More condos and water front apartments and a Cruise Terminal to boot? What do the inhabitants get out of the deal...........jobs at the Terminal?

There's no market for condos, so that idea may be DOA.  However, with JaxPort funding a new terminal the inhabitants could get new shrimping docks, park space, retail space and more tourist visiting the area out of the deal.  These things could also help save the ferry from eventually disappearing and also strengthen the dying shrimping/seafood industry there.  If I were a resident of the area, I would be trying to get as much out of JaxPort as possible to not only preserve the remaining history but also improve the quality, atmosphere and economic conditions of the community.

Most Terminals I have been to are kind of self contained except for power and waste! Other than that a standalone entity!

Check out Tampa's terminal.  There's a retail/entertainment complex, floating ship museum and an aquarium adjacent all connected to DT and Ybor City by a streetcar.

Shrimpers could band together, but for what.......a place to turn around outside of the channel or maybe new docks or maybe jobs at Jaxport?

Just to toss out a few ideas......how about new docks, supportive facilities (ex. cold storage,etc.) and a fresh seafood market at the terminal to sell their catch to the new tourist? 

Something is wrong with this picture and I just can't put a finger on the issue other than it feels wrong for some reason. I don't think a Rood run empire in that area would be conducive to Mayport continuing to exist in any fashion and the use of eminent domain would be a curse that would affect Jacksonville for quite some time! Eminent domain should be a last resort not a first resort and if used, the only ones that get what they want would be the Cruise Terminal and that is flat out wrong!

Instead of drawing the line in the sand and getting ran over in the process, it may be to Mayport's best interest to identify the vision for their community (assuming they don't already have one) and work with JaxPort and JaxPort's money to help finally get them there.

[CS Foltz]

lake ...I agree to a point! Give me an example of "good well designed integrated infill"? Not being sarcastic big guy but none come to my mind right out of the blocks! Proposed Transportation Center really bites the big one so that is not one...........Prime Osburn is not a convention center persay nor is it a train station any longer. River Walk on one side is bricks and concrete and the other side is nothing but rotted wood and I  won't say anything about the $kyway! In Jacksonville not much comes to mind and based on that Mayport would probably get the short end of the stick also! Several people have issue's with Jaxport and the management there (all live in Mayport by the way)ranging from Code being contacted with supposed violations(none were found) and Jaxport itself, debris and falling fences(Code enforcement did not even bother to show up). There is some animosity between the two groups but from my view, I would like to see something worked out where there is no losers but that's not up to me! Mayport will disappear but if I were there, not without a fight! Oh....and Mayport did not have a vision of any kind last time I talked to that group other than staying as was

[thelakelander]

lake ...I agree to a point! Give me an example of "good well designed integrated infill"?

You want a local example or just any example?  Norfolk's new terminal is pretty will integrated with it's surroundings.  It was built in a tight spot adjacent to Nauticus, the USS Wisconsin and Town Point Park.  I could see something similar being done in Mayport with a Mayport theme of course.  All it takes is both sides working together to achieve the goals they want.

Norfolk has entered the next chapter in its storied maritime history by opening a new, $36 million Half Moone Cruise & Celebration Center (www.cruisenorfolk.org). It’s located downtown adjacent to Nauticus, the maritime attraction and museum which displays the U.S.S. Wisconsin, a World War II era battleship.

http://www.southerncruising.com/NewsRelease.aspx?NewsId=32

The city works hard to make your cruise from Norfolk VA as easy and pleasant as possible. The Norfolk cruise terminal dock is at a beautiful waterfront park and museum; not a dirty industrial district like in other ports.

A new cruise terminal for Norfolk opened in 2007. The new terminal is called the Half Moone Cruise and Celebration Center; named for a fort that once stood at the site. The 80,000-square-foot terminal has 33,000 square feet of space for events and a 54-foot mermaid image cast in the floor tile of its entrance.

Cruise ships in Norfolk dock next to Nauticus, the national maritime museum. It is well worth your time to tour Nauticus and the Battleship Wisconsin before or after your cruise.

http://www.norfolkvisitor.com/cruisenorfolk.html

Mayport will disappear but if I were there, not without a fight! Oh....and Mayport did not have a vision of any kind last time I talked to that group other than staying as was

Mayport is already disappearing due to changing demographics and economics.  Under the right circumstances, working with JaxPort could save the community, imo.