War against suburbia

[BridgeTroll]

There appears to be not much demand by families with children to live downtown.  We have a choice here.  If you live in NYC there are plenty of places to raise a familiy in the middle of the city.  The burbs are pretty big there tho also...

[nestliving]

My family loves living downtown. So does my daughter. It's the best playground in town!

[tufsu1]

But you cannot raise a family in a single home in Downtown.

So you're saying you couldn't raise a family in Berkman Plaza?  Or what about City Place, I know I've seen kids in there before.  There's also the old firestation that would certainly be large enough to raise a family.  Also, there is the Parks at the Cathedral.  I know for a fact there are families there. 

correct cline...Parks has a community pool, its own internal pocket park to throw the ball around, and kids ride their bikes/skateboards on the internal driveway.

And of course there are multiple parks for kids in the area, like Metro Parks' Kids Kampus

[Overstreet]

...............Its just not really legal/permitted for them to raise small children in urban areas.

They are driven like cattle into the suburbs.  Its hard to say that someone would choose that lifestyle.

If you consider the inconveniences of the suburbs (remoteness, expense, the average two hours spent per day in commutes, the lack of entertainment options, the lack of cultural institutions and opportunity) there has to be a very powerful trope that would make that hellish existence preferable to urban life.................

I'll guess your use of sarcasm was well intentioned. Either way you are making broad assumptions that may not hold true.

Not everybody’s commute is two hours a day. Not all jobs are downtown.  Entertainment, restaurants, grocery stores and services follow the people.  

What does downtown have?

Instead of fighting the burbs y’all would be better served making urban dwelling sound better to attract people that want to live there.  SPAR arguments do not make it attractive.  Bars and night clubs (the entertainment district) does not make it attractive to families.  Complaining about the only grocery store does not make it sound attractive.  High densities and rundown apartment buildings costing the city tax money do not sound attractive.

[Overstreet]

But you cannot raise a family in a single home in Downtown.

And its really hard to find a place to legally raise a family down here.

Raise a family in a single home or a single family house?

What about the Cathedral townhomes at Chruch and Market?

[Overstreet]

..............Im glad that this discussion has expanded.  Because I don't think people realize that most people are not really 'choosing' suburbia.  They are having it chosen for them by a legal trope whose influence is so subtle but profound that they dont realize what is driving the choice itself.....

Not at all. I know people that moved to 210 from Mandarin because they wanted a bigger house and to get to St Johns county schools. I know people in Port Saint Joe, a town of 2,000, that sold out and moved to Wewa because it was getting too crowded. People are not staying away from downtown living cause of codes and zoning.

Personally zoning has nothing to do with my choice to live in burbs. I don't like all the concrete downtown. I don't like my neighbors sharing a wall of my house. I have had four vehicles and one driver. I could do that down town I just couldn't afford it.  

I used to visit my Aunt who lived on the loop in Chicago. Didn't like it there either.  Oh and that thing about connecting to your neighbors in higher densities, BS. You can ignore your neighbor next door in an apartment building just as easy as in the suburbs.

We used to have a row house in South St Louis. Porches in line and close to the street. Neighbor was a sidewalk away from the side wall of the house, both sides.  The bells from the church tower were nice, but the noise from the neighbor shouting for her dog, kids, husband, etc I could do without. The drunks across the street were entertaining but not at 2am.  There wasn't room for the cars in the garage. Everybody fought for the prime spots on the street. The locals would steal the downspouts off the garage in the alley. The gang down the street cornered a guy on our back step and were about to beat him down. We don't not live there because the zoning laws forced us out to the burbs.  

[BridgeTroll]

My family loves living downtown. So does my daughter. It's the best playground in town!

I think that is great!  It is a choice you have made and you are happy with it.  Same decision is made by those in the burbs...

MY point in this particular discussion is that there should not be an US against Them attitude by either the urbanists or the folks who choose otherwise.

Suppose for example... all the folks living in the burbs suddenly "saw the light" and decided to move to the core.  What would happen to those cool lofts?  What would happen to your quality of life?  Do you really think 100,000 more folks in the core would be BETTER?  For Who?

[BridgeTroll]

Zoning controls where you live overstreet.  By definition.

Disagree... Demand, cost and choice determine where people live.

[Overstreet]

But you really don't have a choice to live downtown even if you didnt like a particular kind of urban experience, right?

Take a look at our historic downtown.  The hotels and giant business buildings were right next door to mansions and rooming houses.  In particular pay attention to the lovely Homes on Duval Street and surrounding Hemming Park.

You don't have that choice now.

It would not be permitted.

But you can have that out in the suburbs to a certain extent.

The point is that you don't know what you would choose if it were legal and there were a few generations of like minded people who had already altered the landscape.

Zoning controls where you live overstreet.  By definition................

It is a rhetorical statement.

[BridgeTroll]

And 'Choice"  you do not have a true choice.

Of course I do.  My wife and I are talking about our choices right now.  I am intrigued by the possibility of living in the core of some city to be determined.  I am also tossing about the idea of living in the Mountains of Carolina/Georgia/Tennessee.  I have lived by the ocean... on both coasts... I have lived in the fly over states.  The choices are endless...

I can live where I can afford, where I might enjoy life.  I am only steered by my own limitations...

[BridgeTroll]

Why would I do that?

Especially in Springfield??? 

[tufsu1]

I don't understand why it's "not legal" to raise a family downtown....there are playgrounds at Kids Kampus and nearby in Springfield and Riverside...there are daycare centers downtown...and the area is zoned for schools.

To my knowledge, a few of the Cathedral buildings are 55+ where kids are not allowed...but those communities exist in the suburbs too....I'm not aware of any restrictions on children in other downtown complexes.

What am I missing?

[thelakelander]

We really don't have an equal choice here because many of the qualities that make urban living attractive don't exist in Jax.  The schools tend to suck, mass transit is horrible and there are limited walkable mixed-use neighborhoods due to urban renewal and auto-oriented zoning regulations.  Imo, Jax's urban challenge is to establish and build an urban core that offers the quality-of-life aspects associated with urban living.  Imo, this is also bigger than just isolating DT by itself.  Places like Durkeeville, LaVilla, Brooklyn, New Springfield and the Eastside are just as important as DT, Riverside, Springfield and San Marco to the success or failure of the urban living in Jacksonville.

Provide dependable mass transit, demand pedestrian oriented development throughout the entire urban core, upgrade the decaying infrastructure, parks and schools and I promise you, many forced to live in our burbs right know will consider the urban option.

Like others have stated, I believe everyone should have the choice to choose the type of environment they want to reside in but we do need to level the playing field.  Right now its heavily stacked towards the automobile instead of the pedestrian.

[BridgeTroll]

I agree Lake but...

The schools tend to suck, mass transit is horrible and there are limited walkable mixed-use neighborhoods due to urban renewal and auto-oriented zoning regulations.

This statement could and does apply to the burbs as well.

You are not alone.

[thelakelander]

However, it is expected that the burbs would not have good mass transit and poor walkability.  These are a few factors that make urban living different from suburban living.  Right now Jacksonville does not really give people options.  With "few" exceptions, those in urban areas have to drive just as much as those in the burbs to get to anything in this city.  This is where things need to change locally.  We need to provide the basic elements essential to the urban lifestyle if we really want to give people a fair choice.