Downtown Dilemma on Urban Jacksonville Weekly Monday December 14th

[untarded]

So what are the hours?  Friday 1700 through Monday 0700? Over all I don't think that would be "cheap" as you think. It would be less expensive than building another skyway yes, but not inexpensive. 

Besides all that Beach Road Chicken Dinners is not downtown. I've run into some of my FBC friends at the Fruit Cove Loop on their way home from church.  One does not always stop to eat at  at the first chance you get. 

The cost is relative here.  Reviewing much of the discussion about how to revitalize downtown we've seen a lot of discussion on mass transit (specifically rail), tax incentives for redevelopment of existing structures and plenty of debate on convention centers, marinas, museums, etc do bring people to downtown.  Well we already have people downtown and the relative cost of some PCTs running a few hours on Sunday is minuscule compared to the aforementioned ideas.

We already have the people, we already have the PCTs.  Why aren't we taking advantage of that?  If we can't take advantage of those why would anyone think that spending tens or hundreds of millions on other infrastructure would yield any better results?

[thelakelander]

Quite simple.  PCTs don't stimulate economic development.  They should not even be discussed when talking about using fixed mass transit to as a catalyst for permanent urban connectivity and private infill development.  If they did, downtown would be booming right now, considering they have been on the streets for years.

[Ocklawaha]

So what are the hours?  Friday 1700 through Monday 0700? Over all I don't think that would be "cheap" as you think. It would be less expensive than building another skyway yes, but not inexpensive.  

Besides all that Beach Road Chicken Dinners is not downtown. I've run into some of my FBC friends at the Fruit Cove Loop on their way home from church.  One does not always stop to eat at  at the first chance you get.  

The cost is relative here.  Reviewing much of the discussion about how to revitalize downtown we've seen a lot of discussion on mass transit (specifically rail), tax incentives for redevelopment of existing structures and plenty of debate on convention centers, marinas, museums, etc do bring people to downtown.  Well we already have people downtown and the relative cost of some PCTs running a few hours on Sunday is minuscule compared to the aforementioned ideas.

We already have the people, we already have the PCTs.  Why aren't we taking advantage of that?  If we can't take advantage of those why would anyone think that spending tens or hundreds of millions on other infrastructure would yield any better results?

I'm 100% FOR running shuttles and the Skyway, on schedules that would encourage the use of downtown churches, clubs and bars. What I bemoan is the FACT that the "PCT Trolley" has proved itself in tests to not effect ridership at all. It is not a magic bullet, and if we think it will create vibrant downtown space, Sunday or any other day we are deluding ourselves. ANY shuttle bus would work and frankly, as the PCT coaches are more "plastic" then the regular coaches, they don't stand up to the job nearly as well. Our first fleet (the black ones) encountered mechanical trouble within ONE WEEK of delivery, resulting in all of the trailer cars being parked. Now the entire batch is going out the door.

As for taking advantage of the PCTs, we ought to milk them for everything their worth, and plan on running them until real streetcars can replace them on their current routes. This would allow us to bump them to other parts of town, or as a streetcar purist, turn them into an artificial reef about 10 miles off shore.

The reason for the rail investment is that because it is fixed, investment piles on along the routes. Nobody is going to build a $500,000,000 dollar office tower downtown because we have carnival or Amusement Park, PCTs.  You REALLY want to do the Jethro Bodine on some top executive from New York or LA, just smile and tell them, "Shazam, we don't need streetcars, we already have trolleys!"

OCKLAWAHA
You got off Light STJR

[fsujax]

I think we can all AGREE that PCT's do NOT create economic development, urban infill or anything of the like. I think we can all agree that PCT's are not going to be the savior of Downtown or any other neighborhood. What they can do is move people. That's all they do. They serve a market, not create it. Now, please let's hear more ideas about how to keep churchgoers Downtown on Sunday for lunch. Then I think we should forward this link to DVI.

[untarded]

I absolutely agree that PCTs are not a long term solution and don't believe they will stimulate any further downtown development. And I'm not a PCT fan. My point was that we have low lying fruit that we can capture now relatively inexpensively and we have people there now on Sundays.  If our city leaders can't leverage these inexpensive opportunities how well are they going to leverage the expensive ones?

I'm all in on fixed rail connecting the entire urban core.  I'm a Springfield resident and live close to Main St.  The thought of real trolleys going down Main St is practically a Utopian dream to me.

[untarded]

I think we can all AGREE that PCT's do NOT create economic development, urban infill or anything of the like. I think we can all agree that PCT's are not going to be the savior of Downtown or any other neighborhood. What they can do is move people. That's all they do. They serve a market, not create it. Now, please let's hear more ideas about how to keep churchgoers Downtown on Sunday for lunch. Then I think we should forward this link to DVI.

How about setting up a mini artwalk type event that runs from the church down to the Landing on Sundays?

[redglittercoffin]

I have enjoyed the series in the paper quite a bit so far.  The piece on Sunday was very interesting, especially for someone like me who has only lived in Jax for about five years.  It is educational and aggravating to read the comments on the TU website about downtown (there's an article somewhere about things to stop doing to make you smarter -- reading online news story comments is one of them), but it got me thinking. 

I wonder if the problem with downtown is a "perception is reality" versus "reality is real".  The unwashed masses would have you believe that as soon as you cross over the Hart, Matthews, Main, or Acosta bridges, you are likely to be mugged, murdered and raped -- all before having to pay for parking 50 blocks away from your destination.  I have always enjoyed my time downtown.  Always have found a place to park.  Never really having a problem with the $0.25 or $0.50 to park no more than two blocks away from my destination.  I have found a few good places to eat, love checking out books at the library, and generally taking in the sights.  Could it be better?  Sure.  I'd love to see a thriving Landing.  It would be GREAT to have a college downtown.  It would be nice to have some better connectivity to the sports complex.  All in all though, downtown is downtown.  Nothing special.  Nothing terrible. 

I do not mean to downplay the mistakes by the current administration.  They are there.  They are quite noticeable, especially the business with the DDA rolling into JEDC.  It seems obvious that more downtown residents would be the tipping point for everything else to follow from a private side (corporate, restaurants, entertainment) as well as a public side (all things connectivity related). 

So, what comes first?  Do increased residents drive everything else, or does everything else give residents a reason to live downtown.  Downtown living isn't for everyone.  It isn't intended to be for everyone.  Many/most people will continue to want to live in the suburbs.  The yard, the kids, and all that jazz.  But there is a group that wants to live in a vibrant downtown.  I would even go so far as to say that these are also the types of people that corporations want as well.  Well-educated, young, professional, active, and mobile.

[vicupstate]

^^ Excellent post.

The residents or at least the visitor's have to come first.  Retail has to have a population base to support it.  You start with the pioneers, like the people that live in Springfield.  Eventually the tipping point is reached and the Riverside and later Avondale crowds (socio-economically speaking) find the environment created by the pioneers to be acceptable enough to start joining in.  Eventually the national retailers join the path the local retailers (also pioneers) have already created.

That's an oversimplication, but it is the basic formula.  One question is, does Jax have enough pioneers to go around to sufficiently pull this off.  I don't know the answer to that.  I use to think the answer was probably, but now I'm am not sure.

The city's role is to pro-actively create the clean, safe, attractive, well-connected environment that will draw the pioneers and convince them their vision and risk will be realized/rewarded.

[urbanjacksonville]

During today's Urban Jacksonville Weekly where we spoke with the editor of this piece,  I recommended people head to Metro Jacksonville for relevant and thoughtful discussion, as opposed to the Jacksonville.com comments. Jacksonville.com added a call out to this post in the Downtown feature section, encouraging people to head here for discussion. Thanks for continuing to provide thoughtful discussion on this topic.

Urban Jacksonville Weekly #45 â€" Discussing Downtown Dilemma with the Times Union
Listen Now » http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2009/12/15/urban-jacksonville-weekly-45-discussing-downtown-dilemma-with-the-times-union

Finally, if you want to access all the content from this sprawling series just go to:
http://jacksonville.com/news/downtown

[Jerry Moran]

The article goes on to immortalize the kvetching of the twin gravitational pulse drive of downtown negativity.  Jerry Moran and Farah.

The newfangled solution is to Kill the Messenger?

[mtraininjax]

Sunday's edition was excellent, Monday was a let down. I don't need to know that the homeless need their Heineken at 7 AM, what sort of lesson is that? I can go get Christmas Cheer spread all over my face at the local girlie show bar, but when can we print that moral lesson? Downtown is not full of saints, TU (are you listening), but it is full of emptyness, we need to fill.

Jerry Moran has done a great job of staying in a position for so many years. He has done it, so could others. The problem is businesses. If there were more of them downtown, people would live downtown and the support mechanisms would come. The fact that our "leaders" allow businesses to migrate to the burbs, kills off any future we have for downtown.

Peyton -Grab your jocks. Its time for the Mayor to step up and bring businesses back to downtown. Forget the fact that "we have all the building blocks in place - yuk, yuk, yuk", be a leader, bring Gate downtown, get Gate out of the suburbs. Lead by example. Downtown depends on leadership and we need leadership by example.

Downtown will not be fixed by a rail car line or trolley system. But feel free to post 1,000 color pictures to prove the point.

[mtraininjax]

What I find noticeably absent from the discussion so far, 2 of 5 days, is Paul Crawford and Ron Barton from the dialogue. Our 2 most important downtown champions, and they are.....unavailable for comment?

[Dan B]

Vicup and RGC. If we can learn nothing else from Springfield, there are people from all over the US who are willing, in fact, looking, to move downtown. All the city of Jacksonville has to do it push the people who own downtown properties (incentivize, or even put a tax moratorium downtown) to make space available for renters and buyers.

You bring more residents downtown, I believe the rest falls in place, and all of these TU forumers can go on sticking their head in the sand about how perfect Kernan Blvd is, and how awful Bay St is, and it wont make a lick of difference.

[mtraininjax]

Dan - We have the people downtown, 2500 of them, its now that we need to figure out how to bring more downtown. In the paper today, the people who are living there also WORK there. We need more businesses downtown to draw residents downtown. The main reason, I see, for the flight was that businesses were allowed (not incentivized) to leave and move to the Southside. Why did Kernan explode to begin with? The whole Gate area exploded with businesses and office complexes.

Had this business been kept downtown, it would be a very very different place today.

[Dan B]

I completely agree with you, except in that business needs to lead the way. When white flight happened, downtown WAS a business power house.

I believe residents lead the way. Here in Springfield I know of MANY people who live here, but work on JTB, or Deerwood park. In fact, as a Springfield resident/downtown worker, I am among the minority here.

Springfield shows that residential can lead the way. Its a well known fact that our commercial corridor has always lagged behind our residential market.