The impact of zoning in Jacksonville

[Dan B]

In fairness, SG, the same thing happens, over and over and over.

When Riverside and San Marco lost their shine, they moved to San Jose, then Southside Estates, then Arlington, ect, ect, ect.

Zoning may have had an impact, but really the fact of the matter is, if you think about the communities that were built in the 80s, many of them are starting to falter now.

There may be MANY justifications for the move, but at the end of the day, dont discount the fact that they wanted something new and shiny.

[untarded]

Is that the current Florence Court Apartments?

[thelakelander]

^It never was a single family hood.  Its an urban district and former streetcar suburb.  Like LaVilla, East Jacksonville, Sugar Hill, Durkeeville and other neighborhoods from that time period, its always been mixed use. 

[Karl_Pilkington]

But the fantastic version being promulgated seems to imply that there was a neighborhood with about 5 thousand small plantations whose daily needs were supplied by a loving deity who apparently dropped goods and services like Manna from the sky---presumably into the hands of the maids and scullery workers provided by elfin magic.  Perhaps they lived under staircases or in little boxes?  Maybe they all resided in genie bottles which only needed to be rubbed to invoke them?  No one ever satisfactorily explains this.....

sounds like you just did.

[tufsu1]

heres main street in the early 40s, looking towards springfield.

Does it really look like a low density, single family environment?

no....but since that's downtown, it is irrelevant

[tufsu1]

Simple....

The argument being stated (which has ben disproven) is that Springfield's decline came about because it was no longer a single family neighborhood.

The picture you posted is of downtown (at the Main St Bridge)....I can't even see Springfield in the picture.

[sheclown]

amazing pictures.  thank you posting them.

[strider]

The issue isn’t that some want a quiet residential suburb and others what a vibrant hip urban community….oh wait, maybe it is…

The truth is, you can’t have all of  both.  Another truth is, you can’t have the walk able area many want without an urban density to support the businesses you want here.  You also can’t  get that density without some compromises along the way and then add in today’s economic challenges and we have a dilemma.  Ask for the right things here now  and Springfield will get nothing.   Try to keep out what some think are the wrong businesses, and Springfield will slide backwards as the residents get tired of waiting for that great commercial corridor they were  promised.

Rather than see this as a problem, let’s see it as a huge opportunity.  Perhaps we can have enough  of both to satisfy most everyone after all. We can’t say commercial infill is bad and then say three layers is wonderful in the same sentence anymore.  We must embrace what works today and not wait for something that probably won’t work for ten years.  We must start being real.

[zoo]

Ask for the right things here now and Springfield will get nothing.

Sorry, as usual, we'll have to disagree, but your black-and-white scenario seems to be working on some, so you may as well keep it up.

Springfield "asked" and got:

3 Layers
Premier Pharmacy
Mike & Wafaa's
Walgreen's (suburban design sucks, tho)
$1.3M in renovations at Winn-Dixie
City Kidz
Uptown Market

... and I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

Does anyone appreciate these places? I do, and they are obviously here b/c after studying the market, they thought the business model could work. Obviously, other business models still work here, too. It's a continuum that, right now, is in flux. I hope it continues to shift more toward the kind of businesses like those in the list, and away from an "improved" BP that still sells crack pipes, or a Speedway that allows pros to troll its lot.

That doesn't mean I don't want businesses, and it doesn't mean I want the suburbs. If I wanted suburbs, I'd live in Southside or North Shore.

[Dan B]

The Dancy Terrace development was basically a series of boarding houses.

Here is a group of boarders, including Percy Leon Thomas between 1910 and 1914, before his marriage to Stella DeSha of Waldo, Florida.

Actually, Dancy was initially built by the railroad, as employee housing. Also, upon further review, that photo is not of a Dancy Terrace home. Its bricked out, and has too many windows in the front porch. Plus, the porch columns are the wrong size.

Anyway, not to split hairs too much, here is a family photo from my wifes family, of one of the Dancy houses right after it was built in 1911. I was told this is the oldest known photo of any of the Dancy homes.

They may later have become boarding houses, and the most certainly became low income, and later section 8 housing, but the original intent was for Employees.

[strider]

Ask for the right things here now and Springfield will get nothing.

We can’t say commercial infill is bad and then say three layers is wonderful in the same sentence anymore.

Perhaps I didn’t say it very well, but this is what I meant by these statement:

We like Premier Pharmacy.  We have also heard we have too many bus stops.  What if removing the “too many bus stops”  took away a large part of Premiers business?  That would be an example of “asking for the right thing and getting nothing“.  Except the loss of a business we like.

Someone wants to buy a old infill commercial building that has been empty for decades.  He looks around and sees Three Layers, The Meeks building, the other offices on Walnut.  He thinks having his office there would be a good idea and yet, when he inquires about it, he gets told he can’t have an office in the residential area.  By the local organization that consistently speaks praises for the Meeks building, Three Layers, etc., which I belive, all had to have PUD's or exceptions to be there anyway.  He starts telling his business associates to stay away from Springfield.

A man wants to open a car wash in a facility that was built to be a car wash.  He needs an exception to do it and it gets denied.  A few years later, an extended stay hotel gets built that just didn’t need an exception but a PUD to get build and that has a much larger “negative” impact than  a car wash on noise, traffic and the like and everyone thinks it is great.  So he thinks perhaps Springfield is being more progressive and asks for the exception again. The local organizations says it is against it because it is against the overlay, forgetting of course that so was 3rd and Main otherwise it would not have required a PUD. 

Is it any wonder that some think that a few in Springfield are trying to selectively enforce the zoning laws to more control who can live and have businesses in Springfield than what is OK or not with the overlay?

Zoo, you did forget to add to your list the thrift store, the pawn shops, Yang’s and several others.  I find it interesting that every time you and a few others make a list like that, the same few businesses are on it and the same ones are not.   Actually, Zoo, what you are “saying” is far more “black and white” than what I am suggesting. 

[Springfield Girl]

Yes.  Much more black and white.

I find it funny that we say we would like nicer, more upscale businesses and you guys try to somehow make nice and more upscale into white. Who are the racists here?

[Springfield Girl]

I'm looking into it. I had already started my planning and talked to the landlord but found out a friend may beat me to the punch as they want the same location and have more money than I do. I am looking into other options now.

[fsujax]

now we get racism, this thread is such a joke. This coming from someone who owns a house and lives Springfield EVERYDAY!

[Springfield Girl]

I don't know who owns those businesses and race would have never crossed my mind. I don't know who this small group of people is that is supposedly going to meetings to stop businesses. I know Louise helped the BP open and she is very disappointed now that she did as they have become a problem to the neighbors. I know nothing about the fish market and did not know who the owner of the car wash was until after the HPC meeting where it was recommended for denial. I do know Robert that has opened Kristee's at 9th and Main. He is black and I haven't seen any opposition to his business. Strider and Sheclown are white and there is a lot of opposition to their business. It is ridiculous for you to make this about race.