Bus shelter battle heads to Jacksonville City Council

[CS Foltz]

urbanlibertarian.....not really sure just how much business is generated by signs on bus's and shelters.....do you know? I don't really pay much attention to either since I am focused on the road and don't want my attention to wander.....but that's me! I don't really pay attention to billboards either so I,from my point of view see no need for either one. As a revenue stream there may be some basis for them both but not from my view! When I am two wheels......I most assuredly am focused on what is around me, don't wish to get run over and that has come close several times by people with their heads not keeping track of what is going on!

[stjr]

I just don't understand why people are offended by signs and billboards.  Advertising is an important way for businesses to communicate with potential customers.  It promotes economic activity and economic growth and that's a beautiful thing.

Urbanlibertarian, if you lived here before the sign ordinances of today, you would understand.  Too much of  anything is not good, and we had way too much signage in this town.  Jax looks a 1,000 times nicer today because of our restrictions.  Just go to other communities to see one of the few "development restrictions" we have that truly elevates Jax above other cities.

One can argue we may have gone too far, but let's not swing back to the past where every surface and public spot imaginable was plastered with attention grabbing signage.  It gets ugly quick.

The biggest issue I have heard about regarding the bill to permit bus shelter ads, is does the bill open up the door to legal challenges reestablishing billboards, etc. in Jax.  This should be a real concern to all who care about the aesthetics of our community.  It wouldn't be long before you would be looking out your window and seeing a giant billboard looking back.  As you look down our boulevards, all you would see are billboards and flashing signs.  This is what we had before.  The real question here is what is the threat that this bill's passage leads to the uncontrolled dismantling of our sign ordinance.  Be careful what you ask for, you may get it.

[urbanlibertarian]

I've only lived here since '57.  "Too much signage" is a matter of individual taste.  IMO the current sign ordinance is very unfriendly to business and too restrictive of private property rights.  But that's just me.  And I don't own a business or a billboard.

[Ocklawaha]

I'm all for transit shelters that WORK, and if someone wants to write their name in blood on them, see if I care! NOT! I would think if all signs were restricted to a certain 2' x 4' size, then nobody could challenge that. Even it they did, and WON, what are they going to do? Put up a tiny billboard nobody could see?

Both sides see to be missing the shelter sponsor program, the one we apparently don't have. Nice shelter with a CSX, Winn Dixie, ATT, logo or message milled into the aluminum seat. What would that be worth?

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

"Too much signage" is a matter of individual taste.  IMO the current sign ordinance is very unfriendly to business and too restrictive of private property rights.  But that's just me.  And I don't own a business or a billboard.

I guess you are saying you can tolerate billboards, cell towers, flashing lights, noises, odors, traffic flows, etc. assaulting your way of life as long as it is on private property?  To take it to an extreme, if that property were right next to your home?  When is it too much and who decides?  The sign ordinance we currently have has, to date, represented the feelings of our community at large.

Given that, the concern now is does the bus shelter proposal have unintended consequences that are to the detriment of a clear community priority, despite your personal opinion, for the removal of billboards?

[CS Foltz]

I say no signs on shelters and remove the ones on bus's! I don't read any and would not even if I could! No one can say anything about just what revenue is generated by those forms of advertising so I am kinda at a lose as to just what benefit this gives us! Can mankind, civilization and the City of Jacksonville live without advertising on any bus's and bus shelters? Gee I sure do hope so!

[Ocklawaha]

This is a question of ridership success, rather then a business crushing law on private enterprise.

I say no signs on shelters and remove the ones on bus's! I don't read any and would not even if I could! No one can say anything about just what revenue is generated by those forms of advertising so I am kinda at a lose as to just what benefit this gives us! Can mankind, civilization and the City of Jacksonville live without advertising on any bus's and bus shelters? Gee I sure do hope so!

Mankind can live without it, surely.

But for the past 20 years, bus shelters aren't being built without it.

And lets face it.  Sitting in the rain for 20 minutes waiting on a late bus is ridiculous.

Once again Stephen, when we agree, WE REALLY AGREE!

CS, I'm with you on the "Bus Wrap Advertising," however traditional placard ad's on the inside and out, as well as the rear should be a heavily marketed product.

I have a theory, and Mike Blaylock, if you read this post, this one is for you my friend. We all know Light Rail or Streetcars outdraw buses anytime, anywhere, even if the route is less desireable (see: Tuscon, Old Pueblo Trolley). No one seems to know why, but it is speculated that the fixed route, and uniform look appeals to customers as a sort of visual security blanket. Houston has experimented with some success in putting LED lights in pavement reflectors, and what started out as a warning device for crossing streetcars, has now grown to include signal priority buses and will soon be deployed in bus lanes. At night having a "light track" might spur some of our premium bus routes into much heavier ridership, even two and three unit articulated. Add this to the confusion of the sickening Keith Pearson buses, or the giant Radio Station, and I don't think you do too much, but add this to a system of uniform JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT AUTHORITY buses, and I think you have moved as close as a train, without the steel wheels.

Bus Shelter ads are done around the world, and there is NO REASON that the law must allow anything bigger then that anywhere in town.

Shelter Ads + 4,000 new shelters
Light Tracks
Uniform Paint + placard ads
=
SUCCESS.

For the record, our old wood bench with concrete support bus stops back in 1959, carried ads!

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

For the record, our old wood bench with concrete support bus stops back in 1959, carried ads!

And most of them were removed due to the sign law.
I think JTA is proposing 4x8 ads - which are about the same size as the old tacky yellow "portable" signs that littered every strip mall parking lot - at least one per every storefront.

[Ocklawaha]

Typical end ad's on modern shelters.

4' x 8' would be bad, and I could see a legal challenge with a sign of that size. Folks that is the size of a sheet of plywood! Imagine sitting next to it, or having it you, your interested in the ad, but you'd have to stand up and walk out into the middle of the street just to read the damn thing. Usually these things are on one end of the shelter, where a 2'/3' x 4'/5' sign is more then enough. Sometimes I think if these planners were Salmon, they'd swim DOWN the stream! Though as a whole, Lemmings seem to be a better fit.


Oh my, this one has solar power in the roof panels and WI-FI... San Francisco, of course, where else?

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Fella's.....I got no problem with bus shelters of any type! I have a problem with "Advertising"! Now if someone can put a revenue figure out here that would justify having both bus and shelter advertising lemme have it! I mean I have asked several time about just how much money for anyone is made with this advertising taking place? JTA is making money and what are they doing with it? They say "we need private enterprise to install and maintain shelters".....I say they are full of excrement! Got a JTA account with 72 Million Dollars in it and that will end up being used by Johnny for that stupid Courthouse I did not ask for! So how much money is made by JTA with all of their advertising on our bus's and shelters.....it needs to stop and stop now!

[stjr]

Question:  Why aren't bus shelters funded as part of the infrastructure of the bus system?  Are they going to solicit adds for the $ky-high-way stations to pay for those?  Why don't we hang ads off of our traffic lights to pay for those?  Let's put ads on police cars and fire trucks (they could look like NASCAR race cars  ).  Let's sell ads in our city park playgrounds and on school buildings.  Really, what is the difference between these and bus stops?

I really don't have problems with the ads, but let them meet the same sign ordinances as everyone else or how do we stop the proliferation by all those who rightly would say why can't we have the same privileges that JTA has?  As a government agency, JTA should set an example of good community stewardship, not be a leader in dismantling it.  JTA fritters more money away each year than all the bus shelters could possibly cost over time.

If the shelters are integral to providing adequate bus service, let's use some of that stimulus money like the $7.8 million being mentioned on another MJ thread.

[Ocklawaha]

Fella's.....I got no problem with bus shelters of any type! I have a problem with "Advertising"! Now if someone can put a revenue figure out here that would justify having both bus and shelter advertising lemme have it! I mean I have asked several time about just how much money for anyone is made with this advertising taking place? JTA is making money and what are they doing with it? They say "we need private enterprise to install and maintain shelters".....I say they are full of excrement! Got a JTA account with 72 Million Dollars in it and that will end up being used by Johnny for that stupid Courthouse I did not ask for! So how much money is made by JTA with all of their advertising on our bus's and shelters.....it needs to stop and stop now!

Whoa there friend... No pot of gold in the mass transit business. Tell you what the "golden rule of thumb is." 25% of ALL REVENUE will come from the farebox, ad's, etc... and 75% of all costs are labor. Anytime a JTA type system can grab 400 or 4,000 bus shelters completely free to the tax payer, we should jump on it. 

stjr, I'm still with you on this, I don't think 4' x 8' is a good idea, an argument could be made that many old billboards, (as in antique) were that size, so it might open a can of worms. Just downsize the darn things and be done with it.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Billboards taken to the extreme!  Do these people have any scruples?  That is why we have a sign ordinance.

[Charles Hunter]

I don't remember, but I think the shelter ads will be 4x8 - see the pic of that ad on the end of the shelter posted earlier, it must be at least 4x8, if not 5x9.  Making them smaller may kill the deal.

[thelakelander]

I'm in the camp of believing the sign ordinance is too restrictive.  I understand that there was a lot of crap in the suburbs, but signage is an important element of vibrancy in urban settings.  We threw the baby out with the bath water and implemented a suburban solution to the problem city wide, sort of like throwing down medians on Main Street and then being surprised when people jump out the bushes to cross the street mid block.

I guess it really boils down to who you believe.  There are two attorneys offering different opinions, except JTA's attorney has a couple of examples in other cities to suggest that the change will not impact the ordinance the way the opposition claims.  By the same token, this is a city that has routinely claimed you can't do rail here because we aren't dense enough and it costs too much.  Then you turn around and notice that places like Charlotte and Nashville have rail and others like Little Rock and Austin have been able to fund rail lines for a cheaper cost than what we plan to pay for BRT.  So again, it really boils down to who you believe and if you believe having no bus shelters is better than having ads on free ones that are better maintained.

The simple solution is if Jax wants to be so restrictive as to eliminate the possibility of public/private solutions for public infrastructure improvements, is to raise our taxes to pay for the things we can get for free.  Unfortunately, the typical decision around this city in the past is to do nothing and complain about inadequate service, which doesn't benefit anybody and helps us maintain our second tier city status quo.