Bus shelter battle heads to Jacksonville City Council

[CS Foltz]

Thanks for the info Ock.........That gives me something at least since I had no idea on what the JTA's cut would be regarding advertising on shelters or bus's! I have no problem with public/private enterprise providing shelters for bus stops. I have a problem with Advertising and circumventing the current law regarding said advertising! I have no idea on just how effective that type of advertising is.......and by that I mean just how many customers respond because of an ad that was seen at "x"? Most business try and keep track of just what type and where their advertising dollars are generating customer responce. In the telecommunications business there is no advertising, you respond to a bid request from a company and bid to do the job in x amount of time and at x cost! Your company's phone number may be listed as a general contact point but that's about it and that's in the local phone book by the way, no one uses that for national useage. That particular industry is more word of mouth than any advertising in a traditional form. Most people would not even know what the heck a maintenance or erection company would do or even why. Unless a cell tower was put up in their neighborhood, ask Suzanne Jenkins what happened in her world!

[thelakelander]

Question:   Doesn't a public private partnership have to benefit both parties?  Why would a private enterprise participate in providing such an expensive service if there is no financial benefit to them for doing so?

[CS Foltz]

lake.....can not argue that point! Something should benefit both parties or its a one way street! Maybe something as simple as marking the back rest for the benches as "Thanks to yada yada" this shelter is provided! Not sure how to go at this one......limiting signage to back of shelter? Closing out the ends with advertising blocks the view as a bus comes up on one and the first time a bus gets robbed you know what that will bring! Some of the stops in some of the higher crime area's would be real fun!

[Charles Hunter]

According to pictures Mike Miller had at a presentation I saw, the ads would only be on one end of the shelter (2 ads, one inside one outside), and it could easily be the downstream end, so people inside can see the bus, and the bus driver can see the people inside.

A small "provided by" on the seat or seat back wouldn't work - the whole point is to give advertisers display space that people driving by in cars can see.

[thelakelander]

A small "provided by" on the seat or seat back wouldn't work - the whole point is to give advertisers display space that people driving by in cars can see.

Yes, this is the difference between a private sector entity providing a bench or two verses a single entity providing more than 80 new shelters a year.  My guess, if there were a better cost effective alternative to get just as many new bus shelters the opposition would have discovered and promoted it by now.


Privately funded and maintained with ads






Publicly funded option without ads

[CS Foltz]

One thing that may be considered is a standardized shelter......one type for historical area's and one for regular usage.....the reason that I say this is the three pictures posted are all different in style, materials and design. A standardized design would at least give anyone a cost per unit picture which could have some bearing on where and how many are installed throughout the City. Solar unit on roof would allow two signs to rotate and allow 3 advertisers per sign with minimal upkeep. I have seen large bill boards using that format and makes sense just in reducing the numbers of signs.....that's just my take!

[stjr]

I guess it really boils down to who you believe.  There are two attorneys offering different opinions, except JTA's attorney has a couple of examples in other cities to suggest that the change will not impact the ordinance the way the opposition claims....  So again, it really boils down to who you believe and if you believe having no bus shelters is better than having ads on free ones that are better maintained.

Lake, I guess I would chose to believe the opposition.  Why? JTA, city offiicials, and government attorneys have a long record of being wrong on just about everything they promise about the "future".  They are either in-bred optimists at all costs, just want to have their way with the taxpayers money and will say anything to do so, and/or they are very naive about how the real world works.  Doesn't matter.  They are usually just way off on their expectations and promises.

Evidence?  Just read today's newspaper headline about the "miscalculations" by millions of dollars the City has made on the Stadium costs.  Are they really "miscalculations"?  Or did they just ignore the "opposition" that said all along the stadium would be the financial boondoggle it is turning out to be.

More examples rest with the $ky-high-way, Cecil Field, the Shipyards, St. Johns River Management District, JPA, JAA, Better Jax Plan, etc.

So who do I believe about the risks for signs?  Not JTA.  And since when are JTA attorneys experts on sign ordinances?  I thought they were transit oriented?

The simple solution is if Jax wants to be so restrictive as to eliminate the possibility of public/private solutions for public infrastructure improvements, is to raise our taxes to pay for the things we can get for free.  Unfortunately, the typical decision around this city in the past is to do nothing and complain about inadequate service, which doesn't benefit anybody and helps us maintain our second tier city status quo.

Not all our problems are tax related and this one certainly isn't.  Inadequacy in our transit service has much more to do with poor decision making and deployment of resources.

What would serve our community better?  Losing $7+ million each year on the worthless and seldom used $ky-high-way or buying more bus shelters for a bus system, that while far from perfect, serves thousands more people throughout all of the region, not just a couple of miles downtown.  Or, instead of spending $200 million in transportation dollars on an unneeded road like 9B or a billion+ on the Outer Beltway, spend a fraction of that on the bus shelters and mass transit.  And, before you say JTA doesn't control these things, they do as they are the biggest influence on the transportation priorities for all of Northeast Florida.

The money is there, it's just going down toilet drains instead of somewhere useful.  These bus shelters are a pittance of what goes through the hands of JTA and FDOT.

What is really missing is proper prioritization of spending.  Fix the decision making process.

[stjr]

Ally of the day, ol' Ron Littlepage.  Here is today's column and look what he said!

Council should reject advertising on bus shelters

    * By Ron Littlepage
    * Story updated at 12:48 AM on Sunday, Oct. 11, 2009

A Google search for "bus shelter advertising" produces some eye-opening results.

One is a picture of a large bus shelter ad pushing Wonderbra, accenting, well, what Wonderbra accents.

Talk about a traffic accident waiting to happen.

Then there's the news story in the San Francisco Chronicle about bus shelters in that city being equipped with aromatic adhesive strips "infused with the scent of fresh baked, chocolate chip cookies."

Apparently the goal was to get bus riders to arrive home craving a glass of milk.

One 16-year-old girl quoted in the story was skeptical.

"It's going to smell like cookies and bums," she said.

The above must be examples of what another article described as "ad creep." Bus shelter ads may start out tame, but ad people being ad people, the envelope is going to be pushed.

This is relevant to Jacksonville because the City Council is getting ready to play a dangerous game with the city's sign ordinance.

The gamble is coming at the request of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, which is asking the council to amend the ordinance to allow advertising on bus shelters.

The argument in favor is that the companies doing the advertising would pay to build and maintain the shelters.

Considering the shameful lack of bus shelters in Jacksonville, where it's been known to occasionally rain, that sounds like a good idea - if you like visual pollution in the public rights-of-way.

In 1987, voters in Jacksonville clearly said they didn't when they passed a charter amendment banning billboards.

That and the sign ordinance the council passed the same year are considered national models.

A JTA attorney maintains tweaking them to allow bus shelter ads won't endanger their enforceability.

However, two Jacksonville attorneys who are experts in such matters, Tracey Arpen and Bill Brinton, say that's not necessarily true.

I think I'll side with the experts.

The JTA also assures that any ads on the shelters would be tasteful, but who's to decide what's tasteful?

Apparently the bigger-than-life Hooter's girls ads on JTA buses fit the JTA definition. Could Wonderbra be far behind?

When the proposal came before the city's Planning Commission, it was denied because commissioners didn't want to go down the slippery slope the JTA is advocating.

However, 10 City Council members have signed up as co-sponsors of the change, which should mean it will pass when the full council takes it up Tuesday.

At least one of those 10 needs to reconsider.

If the council is determined to tinker with the sign ordinance, put the question on the ballot and see if voters feel as strongly about visual pollution as they did in 1987.

If they do, how to pay for needed bus shelters?

The JTA could start by shutting down that money loser known as the Skyway and put those dollars to better use.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/ron_littlepage/2009-10-11/story/council_should_reject_advertising_on_bus_shelters

[stjr]

Stephen, it is a false argument to face off sign ordinance supporters against bus riders.  This should not really be the issue.  JTA execs are laughing at our expense.

My point, and others, is the money should be taken from other projects and/or funds so the sign issue isn't a factor.  Why don't you challenge your JTA execs to be be more creative or to change the priorities of their expenditures if they agree bus shelters are a high priority.

By the way, how much do we spend on JTA's annual budget?  For buses?  And, what is needed to properly do the bus shelters?  Can we get some perspective here?

[stjr]

Funny, Stephen, but it only took me a few seconds on Google to find out it just ain't so starting with our nearby neighbor, Orlando.  Apparently, they just received millions in Federal stimulus money for bus shelters. Ask JTA where is ours? And, after three years, Orlando still hasn't worked out a satisfactory contract for doing any ads.  And, it seems, other communities are finding non-commercial ways to create bus shelters as well.  Below, just a few samples of articles on the subject:

Orlando is turning down free bus shelters
By
Mike Synan
@ September 25, 2009 7:12 AM

They're handing the hot potato to Lynx instead.

A company was all set to build hundreds of shelters in Orange County at no cost to the taxpayers, then sell ads on them, but ever since stimulus money arrived, the city and Lynx are putting the brakes on the program. Dick Batchelor represents Signal Advertising, the company that wants to put in the free bus shelters. He says Lynx's plan is to spend the stimulus money illegally by bringing the whole shelter program in house.

"They had to submit an FTA application as to how they would spend the money. Purchase of a private contract was not in that application."

Lynx has only discussed the idea of buying Signal Advertising's contracts in Orange and Seminole among staff, they've done nothing wrong. Each city and county has its own shelter program, but Roger Neiswender with Orlando says after 3 years of working to get hundreds of free shelters in the city, they're washing their hands of the whole thing.

"That's a decision for Lynx to make."

Lynx has 7 and a half million bucks they could potentially spend on bus shelters. They hope to decide by the end of the year. By using private contractors, Lynx currently doesn't have to pay when shelters are put up. They receive thousands in revenue from the deals, but staff estimates they would make hundreds of thousands if they were to sell the ads themselves.

Here is another example:

CARY - Thanks to the federal government, fewer bus riders will have to stand in the rain or the baking sun as they await transportation.

The town has received federal dollars to add four prefabricated bus shelters at stops near the intersections of N. Harrison Avenue and Maynard Road and Wrenn Drive and Kildaire Farm Road.

The $95,000 is part of the federal stimulus package, which was approved to stimulate the nation's struggling economy. The money comes in addition to a $10,000 grant from the Kildaire Farm Rotary Club, which also will aid the construction of one of the shelters on Kildaire Farm Road.

http://www.carynews.com/news/story/13795.html

Here is another approach:

Greenlink has also installed 7 of 200 planned bus shelters; more than 18 more bus shelters are on the drawing board for this year.

It’s also in the process of upgrading its Downtown Transition Center in Greenville’s central business district, Carter said.

He said the shelters are installed by Greenville County Public Works Department crews and are built as they become available to do the work.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20091004/NEWS/910040314/1004/NEWS01

And, still another "creative" approach:

Lexington, KY - Yvette Hurt is pretty straightforward about her nonprofit organization, Art in Motion, Inc., and its mission in Lexington "to sell this idea of artistic bus shelters in the community and to raise funds with partners to help build them," she said.

Hurt's idea to create something cool and unusual with Lexington's drab bus shelters was hatched in 2005. "We put together partners who can get these shelters built. It's purely a public interest project," said Hurt, who has successfully managed to harness the talent and generosity of local artists, sculptors, architects, contractors and lighting experts on what might be called a shoestring budget.

The first artistic shelter, called "Bottle Stop," was built on Versailles Road near the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government campus. The latest one, "Art Stop," is located in the East End neighborhood on the corner of Third Street and Elm Tree Lane, across from the soon to be refurbished Lyric Theater. Both shelters are solar powered.

Money for the East End project came from the Knight Foundation, a neighborhood grant secured by 1st District Councilmember Andrea James through the Lexington-Fayette Urban County Government and private gifts. The shelter uses a large metal sculpture called "Lyrical Movement" and has five art panels.

When the economy is putting pressure on every business operator to maximize their company's time and staff in order to turn a profit, the donation of time and talent may seem a bit surprising. "Why did we do it? For community involvement. It's a worthwhile cause and I wanted to help out," said Paul Ochenkoski, a vice president at EOP Architects, a regional design firm based in Lexington that specializes in health club, higher education, K-12, research, corporate and civic architecture projects. EOP designed the new $25 million outdoor stadium at the Kentucky Horse Park.

http://www.bizlex.com/Articles-c-2009-09-29-89742.113117_Architectural_talent_dresses_up_bus_shelters.html

Still another example:

20 new bus shelters installed
San Diego Communities - Talmadge
BY Landon Bright   
Friday, 25 September 2009 11:08

Councilmember Todd Gloria will unveil new bus shelters in front of the City Heights-Weingart Branch Library on Friday, Sept. 25.

The City Heights Business Association (CHBA) has purchased and installed 20 new bus shelters throughout the area.

“City Heights is a very transit-friendly area, and these bus shelters are practical and attractive additions to our neighborhood,” said Councilmember Gloria.  “This community is worth this investment, and I appreciate the City Heights Business Association for making this project happen.”

The need for bus shelters was identified four years ago. Four of the shelters were funded by Community Development Block Grants. The other 16 were funded by the City of San Diego’s Redevelopment Agency.

“The residents of City Heights are pleased that after a long and difficult process, we finally have the bus shelters we worked so hard to get,” said Enrique Gandarilla, Executive Director of City Heights Business Association.
http://sandiegonewsroom.com/news/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=36070:20-new-bus-shelters-installed-&catid=217:talmadge&Itemid=242

[stjr]

Stephen, there are two aspects to why ad money is supposedly needed:  (1) to build the shelters and (2) to maintain them.

JTA appears to be making the primary case they need the money to BUILD the shelters.  The examples I posted appear to me to show that that is not the case in other communities.  Further, you implied to me that JTA had no other way to get funding for BUILDING the shelters, short of ad money or a tax increase.  In fact, they could get grants and federal stimulus money, not to mention maybe some support from JEDC or other community or state grant makers.

As to maintenance funds, this is a far lower dollar need than the money to build.  I have yet to hear JTA plead their case on this point or see any projections what the needs are.  But, you could be reasonably sure, the maintenance of the bus shelters is far less money than the losses on the unused $ky-high-way.

If you really side with many thousands of bus riders, you should demand that JTA fund the bus system and its infrastructure properly before helping out probably less than 1,000 unique riders a day, 5 days a week, on the $ky-high-way.

If we have limited funds, as I have repeatedly agreed we do, then we need to make the hard choices of where to put those monies to the best good.  In this era of sacrifices and cutbacks, the $ky-high-way may be a luxury we just can't afford anymore.  I think the biggest shortcoming to the case of mass transit supporters on MJ is the failure to accept we just can't have everything on the wish list.  Prioritize, and take things from the top.

By the way, my main beef with the ads is opening the door to the dilution of the sign ordinance and, as others have said, the camel's nose under the tent.  If that could be proven with reasonable certainty not to be the case, and Jax could actually develop a limited plan that they would enforce and live by and not come back and later weaken despite original promises, I would be open to ads.  But, I am not convinced at this time any of this is likely based on our history of false promises and incompetence.  Just look at how poorly we guard our historical buildings due to lack of enforcement and backbone.

The one actual growth/development management success we have is the sign ordinance.  I, for one, don't want to see us step back from it when it should be held up as a shining example of what we should be doing in so many other areas of planning, preservation, growth management, community planning, aesthetic quality, etc.

[thelakelander]

Interesting.  I actually like Orlando's potentially illegal move.   Cut out the middle man, use stimulus money to pay for the shelters and sell ads on them inhouse.  That's a good way to generate income to fund and maintain additional transit services.

[tufsu1]

Tampa, orlando, and Jax. all just received stimulus money for shelters...but not very many

[CS Foltz]

Something beats nothing at all kids! I guess we will have to settle for a slice instead of a full loaf!

[CS Foltz]

I would like to know more about the $72 Million Dollars found in an unused JTA account.....I mean how in the hell do you not know that its there? How do they plan on spending that money or is it a rainy day fund? That would fund a rail study.....build some shelters......pay for a Courthouse. whatever!