High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[FayeforCure]

here is the type of cluster envisioned by the article:

nice try but somewhat wrong....one of the major hi-tech clusters in this country is on SR 128 in Massachusetts....its kind of a western beltway for Boston.

Whether right or wrong, many of these types of industries prefer to be on a suburban campus...just look at Silicon Valley, much of the DC beltway baron companies, Atlanta's perimiter, and Scripps in CA (La Jolla is 15 miles from downtown San Diego) and FL.

Nevertheless, looking at the graphic above, you will not that this is about a 5 square mile area....high speed rail in this case would likely come into North Station...and then folks would TRANSFER to the "T" to get to their detination.

Excellent info.

Unfortunately not likely to impress Stephen, since he is intent on nitpicking rather than see the generality put forward by the Science Progress article.

Sorry to see you so off your rocker Stephen.

I think you are losing sight of the fact that we are all rail supporters.

Though my own preference of importance, if cost was no object:

1. LRT (promotes urban density)
2. HSR ( promotes urban density)
3. Commuter Rail ( promotes sprawl)

In any case, we need to keep supporting Amtrak in their expansion of service.

We are lucky in that our economy needs shoring up, thus the stimulus funds ( though NEVER supported by Republicans). This gives us the grand opportunity to get major federal investments in infrastructure without getting bogged down by a regressive state and local leadership.

It would seem that this websites wants to promote:

1. Commuter Rail and not much else.

Occasionally Amtrak gets some ink too, which is difficult to do as Republicans have until recently tried to kill Amtrak.

[FayeforCure]

Stephen, Stephen, you are right. What we need more than anything right now is a corporate servant, rather than a public servant.

The Corporate servant is so much better because as such he is:

Someone who votes against the Hate Crime Bill

Someone who votes against equal Pay for Women

Someone who votes against healthcare for children

Someone who votes against Veterans issues

Someone who is only for HSR, if it's to take Amtrak's most profitable line away, to futher promote the starving of Amtrak

Someone who votes against the envionment, so much so that he earns a 5% out of 100% by the league of Conservation voters.

Well, pretty soon you will be the middle aged white male that is represented by the likes of Mica.

It's like all the other Republicans, that vote against their own interests because as Joe the Plumber says: One day I might be rich.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Ocklawaha]

Just pulled this off the printer under my Crystal Ball. All it needs is a bit of wax, some buffing and a few gallons of fuel, HONEST, there's a lot of people that commute from Lakeland to Disney World! TRUST ME!

Fact is, if Florida had any intention of connecting density, clusters, industry, residents, etc... It would bite the bullet and build the first phase of this thing from Miami-Ft.Lauderdale-Boca Raton-West Palm-Stuart. Why? Because there is no place to infill left in South Florida. All density must needs be, go vertical. The millions of people that are squeezed between the Everglades and the Atlantic is staggering. Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville are all sprawl cities, horizontal in growth, with no end in sight. Building stations in the middle of nowhere just because a bus or Amtrak, or even a streetcar can connect it to a town, is just asking for more of the same sprawl.

Seems odd to say it but Jacksonville has this right, knock down the Prime Osbourne convention hall, and restore the 1919 train station downtown. Rare Kudos to JTA and COJ for not thinking with the wrong end of their anatomy. However, EVERYONE IN JACKSONVILLE should read the track 2 application for the Jax-Miami FEC trains. It speaks of our Jacksonville Terminal, and tells the world it will connect with... AMTRAK, JTA buses, SKYWAY and BRT. END OF STATEMENT. Uh? Hello? Where's this hot streetcar project? Where are the commuter trains? Ah, don't worry, if we plan like Tallahassee our first commuter rail line will run from Callahan to Baldwin, and our first streetcar will run from Atlantic to JTB down the middle of Hodges!

Nothing wrong in Tallahassee, that buying a few rounds of REBEL YELL, and laying a good ass whooping on these "MMHSR Planner type", folks wouldn't fix!

Stephendare, Lake, I agree, we don't want Faye anywhere NEAR the transportation planning for our state!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Someone who is only for HSR, if it's to take Amtrak's most profitable line away, to futher promote the starving of Amtrak

Well, pretty soon you will be the middle aged white male that is represented by the likes of Mica.

First, those cannot learn are helpless Faye, and those who will not learn are hopeless. Why do you continue to parrot the line that the Northeast Corridor is Amtrak's "most profitable line?" It's not. Acela does well financially, but the corridor as a whole is a huge money sinkhole. Bidding it out to another operator might even improve it somewhat, wonder what SNCF could do with it? Certainly it would allow Amtrak to focus on the long distance routes that are really their bread and butter.

Secondly, I have never heard a politician run entirely on negative statements about the competition. Your condescending language toward Stephendare, Lakelander and myself are not much better. Do you have original thought or do you find out what Mica, has for breakfast so you can be seen eating something different? It's amazing that your entire identity on this site is based on John Mica, so much so that one wonders who's name people would recall first at the polls?

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ouch................Gentlemen this is a discussion blog ain't it? There are two sides to every discussion and I don't agree with Faye either but what the hell? I can learn from something even if it is wrong, don't forget I am in favor of HSR but I refer to that as true High Speed Rail not the Mickey feeder system that was intended for the Orlando region to Tampa! We need rail or something just like it or else Florida will be nothing but concrete and asphalt from sea to shining sea.............ain't right the way its going! If Amtrak can get their act together and actually start service,even lacking stations between Jacksonville and Miami..........then bring it on! It would at least have the chance to break even and maybe make money if expanded.......but start now!

[thelakelander]

For those interested, here are a few aerials of where the train stations for HSR and Sunrail will be located.



Red = Sunrail stations.  Sunrail is proposed to operate on existing CSX tracks, linking Orlando's suburbs to the north and south with DT Orlando and inner city destinations such as Florida Hospital and Winter Park.

Blue = High Speed Rail stations.  HSR is proposed to connect Orlando's airport and Disney with DT Tampa.  The line will be built in the median of I-4 and the BeeLine (or whatever they are calling it these days).

The Lake Nona medical cluster is being developed a couple of miles from both HSR and Sunrail stations.  For the sprawl argument, here is a google earth aerial of the Lake Nona medical district site.  It is just south of the interchange that appears to die into nowhere.

[thelakelander]

I guess it will be dense when fully developed in a decade or two, depending on the economy. 

[FayeforCure]

For those interested, here are a few aerials of where the train stations for HSR and Sunrail will be located.



Red = Sunrail stations.  Sunrail is proposed to operate on existing CSX tracks, linking Orlando's suburbs to the north and south with DT Orlando and inner city destinations such as Florida Hospital and Winter Park.

Blue = High Speed Rail stations.  HSR is proposed to connect Orlando's airport and Disney with DT Tampa.  The line will be built in the median of I-4 and the BeeLine (or whatever they are calling it these days).

The Lake Nona medical cluster is being developed a couple of miles from both HSR and Sunrail stations. 

Beautiful picture lakelander.

It shows that an easy shuttle could transport workers from Lake Nona to the Airport HSR station. It also shows that Sunrail and HSR are not inter-connected. What is interesting from an urban planning point of view is that innovation begets innovation. It's forward thinking climate that's created by HSR.

CSFoltz, thank you for reminding us that this is supposed to be a public discussion board where all opinions are to be welcome. Agree to disagree. Echo chambers are boring.

Like it or not, many people will be involved in rail planning. It is not the purview of the metrojacksonville site alone.

I'm not even sure what we disagree on. I see this site more as a vehicle to exchange info.

More than anything we should be working on getting tri-rail the support it needs. If we can't even take care of the one commuter rail we have in Florida,...........

sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-trirail-highspeed-editorial-sboct12,0,2103286.story

South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
Florida's high speed rail hopes hinge on Tri-Rail's success
THE ISSUE: Florida's bullet train hopes hit speed bump.
Sun Sentinel Editorial Board

October 12, 2009


The state's high hopes for reviving high-speed rail last week received a reality check â€" and thankfully so â€" from U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood. LaHood warned commuter rail enthusiasts in Orlando that Florida probably won't get any stimulus money for new rail projects.

And Florida shouldn't qualify, either, truth be told.

The reason is simple enough, but its one that hasn't gotten through the skulls of state leaders in Tallahassee. Florida hasn't been a good partner in sustaining Tri-Rail, and if the state allows its only existing commuter rail line to fail, why should Washington waste any more rail transportation money on Florida?

The rumbling out of the nation's capital isn't surprising. Over the past year, federal transportation officials, and members of the Florida congressional delegation, have urged state leaders to find a more consistent funding source for Tri-Rail.

They first did so when state officials pushed an effort to start SunRail in Central Florida. Now LaHood has made the point more forcefully as awaits a decision that could pay for the construction of a new high-speed rail line that will link Tampa to Orlando and eventually South Florida.

Given Florida's neglect of Tri-Rail, federal authorities would have had more success watching paint dry. The Florida Legislature is still loathe to approve a proposed $2 surcharge on car rentals to finance commuter rail projects. There are efforts to tie Tri-Rail's fate to the proposed SunRail project that would operate on CSX tracks in the Orlando area. It's a worthy idea, but that initiative includes language that would hold the freight line harmless for any legal action resulting from the firm's negligence, a non-starter for a majority of state senators who believe that's too high a price to pay for new passenger service.

Worse, Tri-Rail's funding problems haven't generated much concern from Florida Transportation Secretary Stephanie C. Kopelousos, and her boss, Gov. Charlie Crist, seems to have checked out on the issue altogether.

State leaders better take LaHood's assessment seriously, and show Washington that they want to stay competitive in the chase for federal high-speed rail dollars. A new generation of passenger train service would boost jobs and stimulate Florida's economy. Unfortunately, state leaders seem hellbent on sidetracking themselves

BOTTOM LINE: As goes Tri-Rail, so goes high speed rail.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-trirail-highspeed-editorial-sboct12,0,1343330,print.story

[CS Foltz]

Let me make sure I have this correct.............red dots are Sunrail (running north and south)blue dots are the HSR (that runs east and west) why are the just connected in the crossover point? How in the hell can HSR run for that short of a distance and be effective........It starts at OIA and ends in downtown? Both systems start and stop in nowhere and this is the best they can come up with? If a stop is programed for Mouse Central then we are just funding a railroad for Mouseville! This can not be an efficient system for true HSR......LR yes or even trolley or streetcar but not for HSR.........equipment may get up to 100mph but it has to stop sometime, jack rabbit starts and stops is kinda hard on any kind of equipment............surely they can do better than this?

[CS Foltz]

I thought that both systems were supposed to be interconnected? You people keep changing parameters on me! Sunrail interurban people moving system.......HSR intercity people moving system.......or it should be not the puny dinky 73 mile mile run to nowhere! I am still confused as to how this is referred to "HSR"? You don't start and stop multi-tons on a dime.....to do so wears equipment out more quickly than would be normal! So just how in the heck does that get referred to as HSR? Come on fellas....if its got feathers, waddles and goes quack....it is most likely a duck....right? So why do we keep referring to that stew in Orlando HSR?

[thelakelander]

The systems don't connect.  Imo, its a result of poor planning and bad politics.  This is anything but visionary on Florida's part.

It shows that an easy shuttle could transport workers from Lake Nona to the Airport HSR station.

The same applies to Sunrail, as I'm sure you know but won't admit.  However, it is a bad way to plan for rail in general.

What is interesting from an urban planning point of view is that innovation begets innovation. It's forward thinking climate that's created by HSR.

Are you saying Lake Nona is a result of HSR?  That's a huge stretch.  Its more a result of a new highway and cheap virgin land now being accessible.  True innovation is finding a way to successfully redevelop established areas of the community.  Not abandonment.

[FayeforCure]

Just think that you should stick to health care until you are able to listen to and absorb the governing principles of rail and urban planning.

You might start with the works of Jane Jacobs and Kunstler.

Unless you've suggested the same to Peyton, Stearns, Crenshaw and Mica and others like that, I'm not going to take you serious.

As I told you before I took urban planning classes, including economic geography at the University of Amsterdam. We had some Professors from Ann Arbor Michigan teach us American urban planning.

Besides, urban planning is alive and well in Europe, where there are many vibrant inner cities, and old buildings well preserved. Public transportation is a given in Europe.

[FayeforCure]

True innovation is finding a way to successfully redevelop established areas of the community.  Not abandonment.

True.

Innovation also means getting cutting edge industry to invest in your area.

Lake Nona started as a uniquely far-sighted project to diversify the Florida economy, but it will likely grow more because HSR will give it that extra innovative tinge.

[thelakelander]

As stated earlier, while I consider Lake Nona to be sprawl, its a better utilization of cow pastures than most of the tract home developments that line the GreeneWay.  However, Lake Nona is an unrelated development to both HSR and Sunrail.  The success or failure of these rail systems should have no bearing on the development of Lake Nona medical cluster. The clustering of the medical district component would be feasible with or without these proposed rail systems having stations a couple of miles away.

[tufsu1]

Even though it would slow things down some, it would be nice if there was an HSR stop on the Beachline to allow transfers to/from Sun Rail