Light Rail vs. High Speed Rail

[tufsu1]

Here's an interesting article from the St. pete Times....even more interesting are the blog comments at the bottom

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/workinglife/rail-will-change-how-florida-tampa-bay-move-think/1029833

[Doctor_K]

On the one hand, it's nice to see that Jacksonville isn't the only city who's A) struggling with this decision, and B) dealing with people who are hard-core against it because they're mis-informed. 

On the other hand, it's great to see Pam Iorio has the leadership and vision to know what's best for a city of that size.  Can't wait for some of that to show up here!

[FayeforCure]

Remember the relationship between high-speed rail and light rail.

High-speed rail would need light rail to succeed. Otherwise, someone taking a fast train from Orlando to Tampa would arrive and still lack decent transportation to get where they want to go in a timely manner.

Light rail does not necessarily need high-speed rail to succeed. But it sure would not hurt to have it.

One leading business group and a rising advocate in regional transportation solutions â€" the Tampa Bay Partnership â€" says it will push for funding for both rail systems. Stay tuned for Act Three.

Over the coming months I'll explore the complex efforts to introduce a rail-based transportation system in the Tampa Bay area. The business community says it cares, but how much?

NY has BRT busses, and no light rail. Yes it has a subway, which is NOT accessible to wheelchair users.

There are other ways to get to where you are going after you get off the HSR. Cabs are another possibility.

Fortunately the Orlando piece had it right:

Further, a federal investment in high-speed rail will greatly boost local transit efforts and encourage local communities to speed up implementation, creating a true win-win for our citizens.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/aug/18/na-jump-aboard-high-speed-rail/news-opinion-commentary/

The key is that there is dedicated federal funding for HSR which we should NOT pass up.

[Deuce]

I like Bob from Clearwater's quote:

Actually, Tampa is now the ONLY major city without rail transit in the US. We did share that honor with Detroit, but Detroit is already building one. Detroit the city that depends on car use more than any other. Ouch!

So what are we, chopped liver.

[Doctor_K]

They might be lumping the Skyway in as 'rail' transit.  Common mistake.

[fsujax]

San Antonio doesn't have rail transit or Indy.

[thelakelander]

I like Bob from Clearwater's quote:

Actually, Tampa is now the ONLY major city without rail transit in the US. We did share that honor with Detroit, but Detroit is already building one. Detroit the city that depends on car use more than any other. Ouch!

So what are we, chopped liver.

Most likely they were referring to metropolitan area size (something people usually confuse with municipal city limit statistics).  If so, we are not a major city.  We are second tier at best.

[ProjectMaximus]

They might be lumping the Skyway in as 'rail' transit.  Common mistake.

No, since Detroit had that too...

[Ocklawaha]

Magic Myke from Tacoma, WashAug 24th, 2009 11:45 AM

Tampa Bay should of had rail 15 years ago, but we are sooo slow to be open minded and see the future, we continue to complain about not getting around Tampa Bay faster!!Wake up ,this is the solution!!!! Or we can just keeping sitting in our cars mad!

Magic Myke, seems to be a pretty cool guy, apparently living in Tacoma where they HAVE light-rail. Myke, the ones who are truly "MAD" are the ones that WANT to stay on the freeway!

ResonantDev from TampaAug 24Th, 2009 10:56 AM

I am all for light rail in Tampa. But, we must have the RIGHT routes & plan that will encourage businesses to locate or relocate in the areas that will eventually be served by LR. You can see this same thing happening in Atlanta w/ the Beltline

Yep, Atlanta is all about a 22 mile LIGHT RAIL BELTWAY as well as THE PEACHTREE STREETCAR, they are expecting explosive growth all along the loop corridor. Too bad that JTA was quoted in 904 magazine this month saying, "Light Rail doesn't fit Jacksonville, buses do..."

Bob from ClearwaterAug 24Th, 2009 9:27 AM

Actually, Tampa is now the ONLY major city without rail transit in the US. We did share that honor with Detroit, but Detroit is already building one. Detroit the city that depends on car use more than any other. Ouch!

Guess Bob doesn't know that the TECO streetcar is rail transit. Lakelander, how ever you want to divide up our population, City or Metro, we don't make this list of shame. We do have a type of RAIL, since the 2002 conversion of the Skyway to "Mono-Rail". So my Jacksonville friends, if you want to boast, go ahead, but remember Tampa's streetcar is longer then our Skyway.

Jim from OldsmarAug 24Th, 2009 8:18 AM

All of you in favor of this. Do you REALLY believe they'll build a rail line with a station within a couple blocks of you that also goes to your job? The only ones who profit will be real estate developers.

Jim is just an ass hole, he can't understand why a couple of BILLION $ of new development downtown might help him, so he doesn't want it to help anyone.

Bill from TampaAug 24Th, 2009 7:22 AM

For a car owner,and who is going to give up their car, this will take longer and cost more than driving and parking for the same route. How many people that you personally know would have used this today?

All will pay a substantial tax, few will benefit. Business may be impressed with toys, but low taxes and costs will attract more. The proposed route, USF/Downtown, will connect only two business centers, not the entire community.

Bill isn't like Jim, Bill is just an uninformed dumb ass. Driving north out of Dallas, TX on the freeway to Plano, the Texas drivers are often flying, but the Light Rail lines along the east side of that freeway is flying even faster.
As for those businesses that are more impressed with low taxes then Streetcars or Light Rail, tell that to Norfolk, St. Louis, The Twin Cities, Portland, Sacramento, Dallas, Denver, Salt Lake City... etc. WE HAVE the lowest taxes and best corporate packages in the nation and from the looks of downtown, we are in reverse.

Mark from St PeteAug 24Th, 2009 6:15 AM

While rail is great,it's 5 times as expensive as bus to operate and only practical for certain routes. Better be sure it's right because once built, you can't change it ! I don't have much confidence in politicians to plan expensive projects !

Some folks are dumb asses, but others are like Mark, who is downright STUPID. Operations and Maintenance cost on Light Rail or Streetcars are generally lower then for bus fleets. As for the marvels of flexible bus transportation, a hell of a lot of good it's done any of Florida in attracting new TODs and TADs.

Fred from TampaAug 24Th, 2009 6:09 AM

At around $70 million per mile to build. Please tell me how we're going to pay for it. All public transportation is subsidized, but nobody tells us how much the taxpayers will pay each year to build snd opetrate it! Maybe they don't want us to know?

Fred must be a Republican, because his comments are right down the FREEWAY. Fred? Did you know a mile of Florida freeway costs from $150,000,000 to $500,000,000. Funny Fred, please tell ME how we're going to pay for it?

Tampa Traveler from TampaAug 23rd, 2009 5:06 PM

Last weekend took highspeed train from Paris to Amsterdam and back - never used a car the 8 days I was in Europe. Tampa-St. Pete more "real" than Orlando - people will visit both areas with high speed - variety is the spice of life.

Tampa Traveler, has a point, those who are world travelers already know what great transit feels like. As an expatriate myself I can tell you all of the years I lived in Colombia, I NEVER owned a car. So whats the big deal? Pay close attention FDOT, because COLOMBIA is light years ahead of Florida.

TransitMan from New Port RichyAug 23rd, 2009 3:19 PM

To: Richard from Tampa, Properly managed it can bring billions in buildings (which should be LR taxed) as the system is built our. Even heavy (Hi-Speed) rail to the north, east and south should be taxed as the system is built out.

Ah! A spark of light in the darkened Florida Sky's. TransitMan has already figured out how those BILLIONS in new development money is going to help him. With Light Rail running as a super development engine, each new office or corporation that relocates near the tracks will pay taxes, and taxes paid by giant new buildings may offset some of the demand on local home 0owners.

TransitMan from New Port RichyAug 23rd, 2009 3:15 PM

Nick from St. Pete, Quite a few Metro Areas do not have Transit Systems that Tampa-St. Pete envision. A prime example of what a LR can do for a major metro area = Think, NJT Hudson Line in North Jersey - Real Estate Boom in the recession.

To: Tom. Transit Systems are not built to profit maker - none are. They are built to transport humans.

Again, TransitMan scores with his delivery of the truth. Even Norfolk, which has been losing population is in a building boom all along the light rail, in the middle of a near depression. Freeways are not built to make a profit, and they don't even move humans from point A to point B, they only move automobiles.

Stephen Morrill from tampaAug 23rd, 2009 2:38 PM

Rail transportation is available now from Tampa to Miami, using existing equipment and rails. Light rail around the Tampa Bay area MIGHT work but basically competes with the existing bus system. "Bullet" trains inter-city in Florida are a pipedream.

Stephen in Tampa seems to have missed a couple of bars on the evolutionary scale and at the same time makes an interesting statement. We DO have Amtrak from Tampa to Miami daily, ONE TRAIN each way, but somehow Florida now says we have a demand for spending Billions on trains when we haven't supported the system we already have. No transit system is going to be designed to compete with itself with different modes.

Bo from TampaAug 23rd, 2009 12:05 PM

It is time for the Times to represent the high speed rail plan properly - it is not from Tampa to Orlando, it is from Tampa to Disney, The Orange County Convention Center and Orlando's airport. It is all about feeding Orlando at the our expense.

I like Bo as he makes more sense then anyone in the Florida DOT. Bo is right, if we were REALLY concerned about moving passengers fast around Florida, we be starting with Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, rather then MICKEY MOUSE. Oh and Bo, it won't even stop at the Orange County Convention Center, because the Mouse threatened to cancel the party.

Tony from TampaAug 23rd, 2009 11:25 AM

Of the 20 major metro areas only Tampa and Detroit lack rail.Look at Detroit and what's happening with their economy. Look at Tampa and our economy. Sputtering to a halt with no hope of revival. We need rail for economic development and to compete

Tony clearly knows something about the building booms that follow Light Rail and Streetcar, we need it too here in Jacksonville. Just remember JTA in the 904 Magazine, "Light Rail won't fit Jacksonville..."

Richard from TampaAug 23rd, 2009 7:41 AM

How will it change our area? Billions to build and hundreds of millions to subsidize operations. This is money that won't be available for more useful projects. Please stop tilting at windmills!

Oh Richard, take your medicine before your heart jumps out of your throat. Would you prefer freeways? Did you know they are not free? Millions to subsidize operations? Really? How about $6,500 - $16,000 dollars a year per LANE MILE OF FLORIDA FREEWAY just to keep them running... Have a nice day Richard.

Jake from TampaAug 22Nd, 2009 5:49 PM

Nick, we are the only of the 25 largest metropolitan areas in the USA (besides Detroit) without a rail system. We NEED light rail in Tampa. The high-speed line, eh.

How cool is it that a guy named Jake knows Tampa is the only one of the 25 largest METROS without rail transit. Jacksonville is the only one of the top 12 cities without rail transit...thanks in a large part to a guy named JAKE!

Cristy from TampaAug 22Nd, 2009 10:21 AM

We need this. After having lived in Chicago, San Jose, and San Francisco, I know how convenient it is to be able to jump on a rail and get where you need to go. No parking, no traffic, access to other areas without the stress of a long drive. Perfect

Cristy, will you marry me? Hell if your rich, I'm single... Sucre - Sal y'all.

Oh no from TampaAug 22Nd, 2009 9:45 AM

Steady Eddie will put a hex on this. Why not do an article on "all" of his failed past ambitions for which he was handsomely paid. Wonder what his salary is this time?

Steady Eddie, isn't out chasing pipe dream ambitions this time. Oh No! Eddie could be right!

Dave from TampaAug 22Nd, 2009 9:01 AM

Two great ways to pi** away billions of taxpayer dollars and get no real benefits. No wonder Iorio loves it!

We need to offer Dave a job as a line tester for the TECO STREETCAR LINE. "There you go Dave, just hold on to that wire while I flip this switch..." POP! Sizzle...

The big question boys and girls is W.W.J.D. = WHAT WILL JACKSONVILLE DO? Your Serve!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

They might be lumping the Skyway in as 'rail' transit.  Common mistake.

No, since Detroit had that too...

Let me try this:

DETROIT is building Light Rail / Streetcar, they had a narrow gauge streetcar running ever since they rebuilt the center of downtown. Also their "people - mover" is actually a fixed rail, steel wheel on steel rail vehicle, similar to Vancouvers Sky Train.

JACKSONVILLE has a form of rail since rebuilding the original Skyway as a true MONO-"RAIL" in 2002.

The boys in Tampa are confused...They don't have METROJACKSONVILLE.COM!

OCKLAWAHA