JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[JaxNole]

Jaxnole, tell you what.  I'll see you back at this thread in 2060 and we can pickup a conversation on the $ky-high-way's future then IF everything you "dream" about comes true.   Until then, let's mothball (my real preference is demolition as I don't think it will ever be a preferred mode versus alternates) the thing and save the operating costs.  Certainly, don't expand it.  So far, none of your "dreams" (which I share) have come close to fruition and nothing at this point seems to indicate when, if ever, they will.  That why I have expanded it's nickname to Pie in the $ky-high-way! 

That's fine with me with one exception: no demo or else my dream absolutely stands no chance.

In the meantime, maybe you could trademark "$ky-high-way". 

[JaxNole]

Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

I think 50 years is reasonable for all everything I mentioned.  Even the Boston T took many years to reach its current scale and it's significantly smaller than NYC's.  We have so much land and the sprawl mentality will take time to become less attractive.

My 50-year pie-in-the-sky scenario includes residential and commercial components on top of existing garages and surface lots serving a higher use.  It also stipulates 30,000 people living in 32202.

With the current way of thinking, one of the most popular that "downtown isn't safe", a radical shift is required for suburbanites to realize there's more crime in their cozy subdivisions.

Am I alone in thinking 50 years is pushing it for everything in my wish list?

[JaxNole]

For the last few years, talk of mass transit has heated up, but, to date, its been nothing except talk.  [/b]

Do ideas and momentum not offer the potential for progress?  Sure, it could go the other way, but 10 years ago, the collective idea of mass transit was adding more buses to the roads.

Jacksonville is slow and not progressive or forward-thinking in terms of mass transit.  I see the conversations as progress and an opportunity to capitalize on the momentum.

It's actually in writing/print and, maybe this time, these plans won't be shelved.

[CS Foltz]

JaxNole your right to a point! Biggest obstacle is vision and planning from the City side of things. Not to mention being able to fund anything. Everything that I've seen does not indicate there is a user base and right now the traveling public does not use the silly thing! Lack of drastic something or other for sure. Start in nowhere and goes nowhere.....not planned ahead for possible expansion at anytime!

[Ocklawaha]

Oh My God! Me of all people running to JTA with the damn fire hose?

First, I would submit to all of you that JTA has a fatal flaw in it's structure. JTA should stand for JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT AUTHORITY, and JHA as a new JACKSONVILLE HIGHWAY AUTHORITY. The JTA portion of that equation should be regional in scope, with a diverse board made up of citizen members from all of the MSA counties, INCLUDING Georgia - if and when we pull them in.

Most of you on here are not old enough to remember the roads in this city prior to JTA or worse Consolidation. Let me give you a few examples of our progressive metro...

Blanding - A two lane chip and seal asphalt road ( the kind with the loose gravely crap on it that roars) more patch then pavement.

Collins Road - all patch, no pavement to speak of, used at your own risk.

Bridges on both of the above - narrow wooden bridges.

Edison at Dellwood? - a four way maze of exposed streetcar tracks with the original 1939, pot holes.

Beach Blvd - That nasty pavement again, but we thought it was the biggest road in the world.

Well you get the idea. The bridges were mostly wood except for a few signature bridges such as US 17, Acosta, Main, Grand Avenue. I actually loved the old wooden bridges but they had outlived their era.

As a whole, JTA got a hold on things and started improvements almost from day one. Maybe it was state money? Developers? Maybe it was Jacksonville or JTA doing something right. Your call.

In Transit the bus routes, built largely on the streetcar routes of 1932, were not seriously revised until 1980/85. At that time the concept in bus transit was hub and spokes, and that is what was done here, but we still kept many of the wandering neighborhood routes intact. We also gained the first connections outside of downtown, with an Edgewood and University Blvd, route connecting everything on both sides of the river WITHOUT having to go downtown. Since that time the system has expanded into the 3Rd largest transit system in Florida (even though other MSA's are bigger then us or have more glitter). We dwarf Tampa and Orlando's systems, and come in behind Miami/Dade and Ft. Lauderdale/Broward.

JTA is one of the first systems in Florida to employ large scale use of bus turnout lanes, wherever new construction has allowed it.

JTA was first or among the first systems in the State to employ articulated "super-buses".

JTA went to AIR CONDITIONING as soon as they could replace the City Coach equipment.

JTA was a pioneer in both express and Park and Ride lots in Florida.

When Washington, DC offered to build 3 "FREE" downtown people mover systems in the USA JTA jumped into the contest with a fever. At the time downtown was still the center of most shopping and almost all white collar jobs so it seemed like a perfect fit. We beat out many bigger and richer cities, in fact we trounced several of them... (Kudos to Steve Arrington). Our system was designed to run from Shand's, the Stadium, Riverside and San Marco, as well as connect to the train station downtown. I truly believe that mounting frustration with UMTA (UMTA-Urban Mass Transit Administration, aka:FTA back in the day), on and off funding, and Republican pull the carpet out from anything not gas powered on asphalt mentality caused a revolt in Jacksonville. Something big happened that has never been aired because we went in and converted the system to a more off the shelf BOMBARDIER monorail in 2002. Then the crash of downtown retail, and office space hit, the Skyway flopped. 60 Minutes and ABC were waiting at the door but to JTA's credit no fingers were pointed, they took it as their own and spun it as a learning curve. The FTA on the otherhand issued an official statement "That the Federal Transportation Administration does not and has NEVER supported the Jacksonville Skyway." WOW!
Just change the agency name and wash your hands uncle Sam... good one! Now it's up to Jacksonville to stick our Skyway right up Sam's nether reigons, finish it (the whole original system) with OBAMA funds, for the first time in forever in mass transit we are hearing YES WE CAN!

JTA has worked to keep our equipment up to Federal, State and Local Standards...A few highlights.

The old non-AC Macks were replaced with Flexible "New Look" buses almost immediately.
We also bought a fleet of the "Mod-Sqaud FISHBOWL" buses when that look was in vogue.
The American Motors Corporation (AMC) developed the giant wide window bus that became known as "Rattlers"  (for a window jingle they all had), one of the most comfortable City Buses ever.
We got in on the Grumman Aerospace buses only to find out like the rest of the world that they made much better WWII fighters then they did buses. They all developed cracked "A" frames.
When Autos and such went back to rounded lines we jumped on the new GM buses (some are still around).
JTA bought 3 MCI motor coaches (Greyhound Type Buses), for our express services, very well received with rave reviews from the riders. (time to replace them now = uh? 5 new SILVER EAGLE 15's anyone?)
Lastly we are in on the new Gillig BRT style, with the standard engine and drive package (The grey ones you see everywhere now).

I'm not believing I did that!




Not your fathers bus...

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, one question:  What percentage of our transit trips today are via mass transit (buses, $ky-high-way) versus 30-40 - 50 years ago?

Having modern equipment and revised routes, etc. are great, but the proof is in the pudding.  I think mass transit here is for the purposes of (1) grabbing some easy federal money to boost the local economy, (2) appeasing low income residents that we are "trying" to make their lives better, (3) appeasing mass transit and/or environmental advocates that we are a "progressive" city, and (4) covering the fact that we spend far more resources building roads not mass transit which, bottom line, really isn't a community priority to date.

On this basis, JTA "mass transit" efforts are a huge success.  Unfortunately, they appear to me to be substantively a huge failure because they really haven't increased at all the orientation of our community to mass transit.  I blame this on lack of political will, community commitment, lack of vision, influence of developers who want more roads, poor deployment of resources, under-promotion of the benefits of mass transit (compare JTA's efforts to yours), poor operational execution, lack of leadership, etc.  Add it all up, and we are no more a mass transit city, and probably far less, than we were 50 years ago.

[CS Foltz]

Like I have said before.....lack of vision, lack of planning and now add lack of money! It is really sad the current Administration has blinders or shades on and refuse to take them off!

[jbroadglide]

Ock
If you want to get a bit nostalgic and drive across a couple wooden bridges, take a ride up US301 towards Callahan, turn left on Old Kings Rd, go past the work release camp and then turn right on Acree Rd. Go about 3 1/2 miles and you'll find not one, but two wooden bridges, still in very good shape and used evvry day by the folks who live out that way. They aren't very long and they aren't very tall but they sure are wooden bridges.
John

[Captain Zissou]

There is a wooden bridge that my neighborhood uses to get to our homes.  The hurricanes have made it pretty suspect, but it's functional for most sedans and pickups.  It's off of Ortega Farms Rd.

SJTR, your request to Ock got me thinking.  Speaking of percentages, what percent of your posts are against the Skyway??  It seems like you are taking all comers on this issue.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, one question:  What percentage of our transit trips today are via mass transit (buses, $ky-high-way) versus 30-40 - 50 years ago?

Having modern equipment and revised routes, etc. are great, but the proof is in the pudding.  I think mass transit here is for the purposes of (1) grabbing some easy federal money to boost the local economy, (2) appeasing low income residents that we are "trying" to make their lives better, (3) appeasing mass transit and/or environmental advocates that we are a "progressive" city, and (4) covering the fact that we spend far more resources building roads not mass transit which, bottom line, really isn't a community priority to date.

On this basis, JTA "mass transit" efforts are a huge success.  Unfortunately, they appear to me to be substantively a huge failure because they really haven't increased at all the orientation of our community to mass transit.  I blame this on lack of political will, community commitment, lack of vision, influence of developers who want more roads, poor deployment of resources, under-promotion of the benefits of mass transit (compare JTA's efforts to yours), poor operational execution, lack of leadership, etc.  Add it all up, and we are no more a mass transit city, and probably far less, than we were 50 years ago.

City wide it's right at 5%, Cities with transit mix are closer to 15%. Oklahoma City's story is fairly common, when the Oklahoma Railway was discontinued after WWII, and a "modern bus system installed" transit ridership dropped by 97%.

My personal use tells a tale too. Until two years ago, 100% of all of my travel was via mass transit, both in Colombia and in Pompano Beach/Miami, when we moved up here there was no transit service within about 2 miles, Hodges at JTB. Now I'm living by the river damn near Hastings... Be a cold day in hell before we EVER see transit options here, but I COULD park and ride from a St. Augustine or Nocatee Station.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

SJTR, your request to Ock got me thinking.  Speaking of percentages, what percent of your posts are against the Skyway??  It seems like you are taking all comers on this issue.

Nothing like a healthy debate.  Ock is 100% pro and I am 100% against.  Everyone here has the right to listen and make up their own minds.  That's what these threads are all about and why most of us read and/or participate in them.

My position, as stated, is based on a mix of historical facts, repeated failed promises and expectations provided by "experts", frequent missteps and financial miscalculations, a demonstrated ongoing failure to successfully deliver its intended potential, changing excuses,  a lack of what I call common sense, and the perception that there is nothing out there that will substantially change any of this going forward (including expansions)  - all over a multi-decade period.   Add to this that (1)  we lose money everyday we operate the $ky-high-way that could be used in other mass transit options that are far superior delivery systems for the money and (2) that our community has a demonstrated limitation on resources and politcal will to support mass transit making the $ky-high-way an obstacle to the successful implementation of other superior mass transit projects.

Proponents, with due respect, are continuing to make the same old promises of pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.  Maybe, maybe not.  For me, I remain a nonbeliever since I have heard all this before and can see clearly what is before me now.

Given the history, limitations of resources, and more reliable options for the money, the leap to change my position is too far to make.

[Ocklawaha]

To cross the river? HA!

Commuter Rail, on the FEC Bridge only, no other logical way.
Light Rail, A new bridge in the city core and/or the New Matthews bridge or tunnel.
Streetcar, A remote chance to retrofit a lane for streetcar on one of the two downtown bridges but more likely to go the way of Light Rail.
BRT, Take away two traffic lanes or mix in traffic in an HOV lane, completely messing up the Acosta or Main.
Bus, stuck in the same traffic as everyone else.
Hang Gliders, perhaps off the top of the Modis Building.
Pogo Sticks, Main Street Bridge, but stay away from that steel grating in the center!
Skyway, PRICELESS... IT'S DONE!

PS: stjr, Calling me a proponent of the Skyway is like saying Nero was a Baptist Evangelist. As Stephendare, has explained, I just can't see the waste of taking it down or shutting it down when anyone can see it is within striking distance from a different demographic - RESIDENTIAL/RETAIL/FOOD.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock.....at least you have a vision of what could be! I have to agree with you concerning the importance regarding passenger conveyance whatever the type......light rail would be nice and so would a trolley system but we are flogging a dead equine! Until the current Administration wakes up (I would bet every dime I have they won't by the way) and someone puts their foot down and comes up with a plan that is cost effective and productive and people see the light and get behind it.....we are pretty much hung out to dry! Skyway had potential and still may if it were extended to somewhere that was user needed. That type of transportation being elevated above normal traffic lanes would not impact traffic flow at ground level and I think would be better than something ground level wise....but not my call. Till Johnny gets booted out ....nothing is going to change at all!

[Ocklawaha]

Well it is pretty much a JAX FACT that nothing will happen till Johnny Goes Marching HOME! But then we have a new crop of boneheads like the recent councilman demanding to know why we operate the Skyway if it costs us $7 Million a year. Never mind that FDOT says our highways cost us from $6,000 - $16,000 a year PER LANE MILE for upkeep. I know, here comes the doomsday predictions, "People use the roads and nobody uses the Skyway!"
So sorry for them but if their automobiles only went from their garage to the stop sign at the end of their streets I bet they wouldn't ride in the damn car either! That's about all we have with the Skyway except a very expensive bridge, and a really deluxe car barn and operations building that COULD handle a system 5 times as big.

Keep up the support, more on this to come.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

So sorry for them but if their automobiles only went from their garage to the stop sign at the end of their streets I bet they wouldn't ride in the damn car either!

....Keep up the support, more on this to come.

I would say the $ky-high-way is more like a clunker that travels the neighborhood (Downtown) but doesn't advance to the adjacent neighborhoods.  The problem isn't that the "clunker" doesn't go to these surrounding neighborhoods, it's that no one wants to use the "clunker" to go anywhere period, not even within the neighborhood it already travels.  So, why empower it to go elsewhere.  Instead, let's find a travel mode that people would really use.

As to "more to come", I hope not.  This is a nightmare story with no ending it seems.  Please, let's awake from this dreaded sleep and live to dream a better dream another day.