Ruins of Jacksonville: The Streetcar System

[jason_contentdg]

^ Looking at that website and presentation for the Oklahoma City Modern Transit Project, and then glancing back over to the presentation for the Artist Walk at Ram prepared by City of Jacksonville, I felt like I got punched in the gut.  The difference in the qualities of the presentation is ridiculous, Jax looks like it's a PowerPoint presentation from the mid 90's, while OC's looks fresh, and gets people excited with a quick glance....

And then there's the MTP itself not only are they using a modern transportation system, their harnessing wind power to help generate the electricity.

We really should just photoshop Jacksonville's skyline and Peyton's head on their mayor's and see what kind of response there would be to that front page presentation.....

[JaxNative68]

racism killed our city.

btw, how much does the "Springfield's Main Street in 1900" photo look like New Orleans?  Could have been us!

[Ocklawaha]

The City jumped on the bus with liberated joy, smoother, faster, more comfortable, and completely FLEXIBLE... Oh, did I mention National City Lines claim to buses being faster? Well, here is your evidence, blowing past an early aircraft at 97 miles per hour. Flexibility came back to bite us in the butt. Smoother? Perhaps the result of a war with City Hall, bankruptcy and allowing the track to sink in the sand.

racism killed our city.

btw, how much does the "Springfield's Main Street in 1900" photo look like New Orleans?  Could have been us!

The race card is not a valid excuse for our demise as the metropolis of the South, if it were, then Atlanta, Memphis, Selma, Birmingham and Charlotte would be in far worse shape then us. Having lived through axe handle Sunday, and seen my father active in Civil Rights gave me a unique view of the races in Jacksonville. At some risk to his own executive suite, dad, who managed the NEX Southeast Region, trained the "Shoe Shine Boys" as hair stylist, clerks and cashiers. It was a shot heard around the local Navy facilities. These men became part of my extended family, "uncles" to a small boy. Two of them, a Mr. James Johnson, and a Mr. Johnny Santo, took it on theirselves to teach this little WASP the fine arts of fishing, soul food and some truly great music.  As a result of those bonds, as a single young man, I lived just blocks from Edward Waters College, and in Grand Crossing. My experience in "The Hood" were some of the friendliest, neighborly, and productive times of my life. Meanwhile dad was weathering a fire storm of Department of Defense rules, he prevailed however and the multi-colored curtin came crashing down. I couldn't be more proud of him.

You are correct that several of our Main Street buildings looked like New Orleans, there are still a few remaining on Main as well as downtown. Perhaps we could do a photo essay on the "New Orleans Factor," in our buildings history.

MTrain, I never thought of you and I agreeing on anything (except friendship) and I find your post in this thread 100% right on target. I couldn't agree with you more. As for the hotels, had we been a bit more pro-active and followed the lead of City Commissioner, Saint Elmo Acosta, we would have Light Rail to the beach today (as he proposed). It was Acosta that told the City we needed to cash in on that Florida East Coast branchline to Jacksonville Beach and Mayport, which at the time was up for abandonment. Not only LRT, but Interurban style freight service would have made our City cluster around 20 miles of track. Mayport would have grown from a railroad/maritime coal terminal into one of the greatest ports in the world. It is also likely that the Florida East Coast would have obtained access to the Northside Ports, thus rather then a rail transportation and logistics port city we would also have become a destination. Flagler, did have a fantastic "Hotel Continental," at Atlantic Beach, but not unlike the "Hotel Ormond," it was all wood. Ormond tore theirs down in the 1980's, and ours burned to the ground in the early 1900's.

Today we sit at a junction in the path to the future, either we embrace fixed rail transit and reap the rewards, or we continue to delude ourselves that spending a Billion dollars on glorified bus freeways will save the day.

Thanks for the information on OKC, I was there when this was just talk... I wonder how it became a project? Hee Hee. BTW, did you know that when Oklahoma City closed it's streetcar and interurban lines for "modern flexible bus transit," ridership dropped by 97%. To quote a JTA official when speaking about light rail in Charlotte: "Those  people hate rail, nobody wants it, they want Bus Rapid Transit..." Then the vote came in North Carolina, with streetcars and LRT taking almost 80% of the votes. So much for hating rail..

[JaxNative68]

The City jumped on the bus with liberated joy, smoother, faster, more comfortable, and completely FLEXIBLE... Oh, did I mention National City Lines claim to buses being faster? Well, here is your evidence, blowing past an early aircraft at 97 miles per hour. Flexibility came back to bite us in the butt. Smoother? Perhaps the result of a war with City Hall, bankruptcy and allowing the track to sink in the sand.

racism killed our city.

btw, how much does the "Springfield's Main Street in 1900" photo look like New Orleans?  Could have been us!

The race card is not a valid excuse for our demise as the metropolis of the South, if it were, then Atlanta, Memphis, Selma, Birmingham and Charlotte would be in far worse shape then us. Having lived through axe handle Sunday, and seen my father active in Civil Rights gave me a unique view of the races in Jacksonville. At some risk to his own executive suite, dad, who managed the NEX Southeast Region, trained the "Shoe Shine Boys" as hair stylist, clerks and cashiers. It was a shot heard around the local Navy facilities. These men became part of my extended family, "uncles" to a small boy. Two of them, a Mr. James Johnson, and a Mr. Johnny Santo, took it on theirselves to teach this little WASP the fine arts of fishing, soul food and some truly great music.  As a result of those bonds, as a single young man, I lived just blocks from Edward Waters College, and in Grand Crossing. My experience in "The Hood" were some of the friendliest, neighborly, and productive times of my life. Meanwhile dad was weathering a fire storm of Department of Defense rules, he prevailed however and the multi-colored curtin came crashing down. I couldn't be more proud of him.

You are correct that several of our Main Street buildings looked like New Orleans, there are still a few remaining on Main as well as downtown. Perhaps we could do a photo essay on the "New Orleans Factor," in our buildings history.

MTrain, I never thought of you and I agreeing on anything (except friendship) and I find your post in this thread 100% right on target. I couldn't agree with you more. As for the hotels, had we been a bit more pro-active and followed the lead of City Commissioner, Saint Elmo Acosta, we would have Light Rail to the beach today (as he proposed). It was Acosta that told the City we needed to cash in on that Florida East Coast branchline to Jacksonville Beach and Mayport, which at the time was up for abandonment. Not only LRT, but Interurban style freight service would have made our City cluster around 20 miles of track. Mayport would have grown from a railroad/maritime coal terminal into one of the greatest ports in the world. It is also likely that the Florida East Coast would have obtained access to the Northside Ports, thus rather then a rail transportation and logistics port city we would also have become a destination. Flagler, did have a fantastic "Hotel Continental," at Atlantic Beach, but not unlike the "Hotel Ormond," it was all wood. Ormond tore theirs down in the 1980's, and ours burned to the ground in the early 1900's.

Today we sit at a junction in the path to the future, either we embrace fixed rail transit and reap the rewards, or we continue to delude ourselves that spending a Billion dollars on glorified bus freeways will save the day.

Thanks for the information on OKC, I was there when this was just talk... I wonder how it became a project? Hee Hee. BTW, did you know that when Oklahoma City closed it's streetcar and interurban lines for "modern flexible bus transit," ridership dropped by 97%. To quote a JTA official when speaking about light rail in Charlotte: "Those  people hate rail, nobody wants it, they want Bus Rapid Transit..." Then the vote came in North Carolina, with streetcars and LRT taking almost 80% of the votes. So much for hating rail...

Racism is the reason the City of Jacksonville annexed itself to the county in 1968 in order to avoid integration, keeping segregation alive and well in our downtown area.  This annexation, in my belief, started the bad zoning, underfunding, lack of city focus and general mismanagement of our city.  So in respect, yes I think it is safe to say that racism did kill our city.

[cline]

Racism is the reason the City of Jacksonville annexed itself to the county in 1968 in order to avoid integration, keeping segregation alive and well in our downtown area.  This annexation, in my belief, started the bad zoning, underfunding, lack of city focus and general mismanagement of our city.  So in respect, yes I think it is safe to say that racism did kill our city.

There was plenty of corruption and mismanagement in the city before the consolidation.  The public schools had lost their accredidation and the city was a literal sewage dump with very poor sanitation.  Consolidation played a key role in fixing some of these problems.  I do think you are right in that racism is one of the underlying reasons for the consolidation movement. 

[pwhitford]

In addition to the horror story that is Jacksonville's transit history, these pictures evoke in me a deeper sadness: the buildings.  All that beautiful building stock gone forever.  Its nauseating.  I believe I recognize some of the building, but most of them are just gone.  We have so far to go just to get back to where we were.   It's really disheartening ...

[stjr]

The removal of streetcars shows what happens when a community takes a short sighted view and sells itself out to the money interests and developers for the quick "economic growth" so many of our citizens are always looking for at the expense of our quality of life. Let's sell out our beaches for offshore drilling, our rural and forrested lands for outer beltways, our parks for lower taxes, mass transit and pedestrian friendly avenues for wider, faster roads, historic structures for more parking or "new" office boxes, our cultural and educational institutions for a few pennies in tax savings, etc. Our society, stripped of all these quality of life building blocks is left with what?  A forgettable, flavorless, mass produced, devoid of character, boring, day to day grinding existence?

Excellent summary stjr -- we're already there, are you running for mayor?

Thanks for the vote, Zoo!    I think someone with this thinking would if they thought people in Jacksonville were on the same page but unfortunately they are not - at least not yet.

Jax has come a long way - but, it started in a deep whole so it has a long way still to go.   Most progressive thinking isn't consistent with the conservatism of our community.  Rather, change agents, even moderate ones (of which I would include myself), are automatically branded as "liberals" and summarily dismissed.

Despite the postings on MetroJax, I don't see a groundswell of support in our community for mass transit over road expansions, for greater preservation of historic properties and natural spaces over new economic development, for emphasizing public education at all levels over cutting taxes, for addressing the underlying social "ills" of our community over endlessly increasing our investment in the "after the fact" solutions of more law and order elements including increasing police, prosectors, and jails, for advancing cultural institutions, not just athletic ones, for focusing on substantive, hardworking, functional contributors and engines of our community rather than the grandstanding people and projects that falsely and superficially promise quick fixes, etc.

If our citizens would pause and reflect, perhaps they could begin to understand that without critical quality of life building blocks,  economic development, improved mobility, taxes on society, law and order, and support for favorite interests will never be achieved on a level that they will find fully satisfactory.  Nor, will we have the ties that bind our citizens to the fabric of our local society where they will wish to further invest their resources and advance our community.

It will be a real change in Jax if Peyton actually convinces the community to swallow something of a property tax increase.  The traditional zeal to ban income taxes, cut property and intangible taxes, keep a lid on gas and sales taxes, dismiss impact and other fees, eliminate tolls, etc. is understandable given the inefficiencies of our politically run (by BOTH parties, mind you!) governments that often squander and/or misprioritize opportunities entrusted to them by the voters.  But it has also resulted in throwing the baby out with the bathwater and led to sweeping and indiscriminate underinvestment in our community.  Is this City willing to carefully sort out the issues and finally show some maturity in solving them?  Or, will we just continue to look the other way, and focus only on our immediate lives, both in terms of time frames and space?

[Ocklawaha]

Racism is the reason the City of Jacksonville annexed itself to the county in 1968 in order to avoid integration, keeping segregation alive and well in our downtown area.  This annexation, in my belief, started the bad zoning, underfunding, lack of city focus and general mismanagement of our city.  So in respect, yes I think it is safe to say that racism did kill our city.

There was plenty of corruption and mismanagement in the city before the consolidation.  The public schools had lost their accredidation and the city was a literal sewage dump with very poor sanitation.  Consolidation played a key role in fixing some of these problems.  I do think you are right in that racism is one of the underlying reasons for the consolidation movement. 

Cline, I tend to agree with your slant on this municipal holocaust. Racism may indeed have played a roll in Consolidation or Freeway Construction, but it would be nearly impossible to prove. Bottom line a north - south freeway through the urban area would not have (at the time)a chance of "success" if it missed the city core. There was certainly no way they would have been able to buy out the fabric of downtown and blow a highway through it. So what to do? Run the lines along the edge of the urbanized zones and follow the cheapest land available. Sadly the cheapest land would be owned by our African-American brothers and sisters. A century of neglect and second class status insured the routes not only for our freeway, but every other freeway in the country took out the lowest priced property within an acceptable boundary. Mexicans? Blow it away. Blacks? Bulldoze the hood. Puerto Rican? Move them out. The question should be, was this due to price, speed, racism or a wicked combination of the above.

Consolidation did indeed fix an ailing city with horrible schools and layer upon layer of piecemeal services, providers, or lack thereof. Under Hans Tanzler, the Consolidated City completed a complete reconstruction of downtown plumbing, utilities etc... This was the first rebuild effort EVER.
Transportation moved to the front of American Cities of the day, but of course it was all highway.

Today, we have a problem, WE NEED STREETCARS AND A FINISHED SKYWAY AND WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE AMTRAK TO MAKE US THE HUB WE ONCE WERE! We need it yesterday, we need it now, and turning this thread into something else is only going to create wasted steam. Focus my city, Focus! We need ideas, movers and shakers and no more pouring our budget down highway manholes.

[Jason]

On a side note, I found out yesterday after speaking with a driver, that Jacksonville is no longer the regional hub for Greyhound, Orlando is.

We HAVE to at least keep the train hub here.

[Dog Walker]

The real racist push for Consolidation was to prevent the City of Jacksonville from having a black mayor and council.  As white people moved out of the old city limits it became evident that African-Americans were about to be or were the majority.

City government was almost totally corrupt at the time too. 

The "powers-that-be" decided that they could outvote the two or three African-American members that would get onto the Council and they could stay in control of the consolidated city and county.  They did too!

[Doug San Diego]

Another fascinating and well researched history.

An ironic twist comes from San Diego. The PCCs which were scrapped in 1949 are due to re-appear on the streets of Centre City by the end of 2009. There are only four being restored at the moment, but conceptual approval has been given by MTS to run lines to Balboa Park and Lindbergh Field (our airport). It will be interesting to see how the public reacts. All work is being done through the not for profit San Diego Vintage Trolley, although Centre City development corporation has made a contribution with the stipulation that  these not be a cute, tourist bauble, but a real transport alternative for residents and visitors. The most recent information can be seen at SDERA.org. Go to newsletters.

With all the existing rail lines in Jacksonville, vintage streetcars might be a promising option there, as well.

[thelakelander]

Thanks for this update.  We'll have to keep our eyes on this San Diego vintage trolley project.

[AaroniusLives]

Jax fell behind the rest of Florida because, IMO, the leadership here in our great city fell behind those in other more progressive cities. As those cities grew, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, they went and planned for ways to move people around the cities, where our leaders just sat by and did nothing to help manage population growth. If we did anything, we built bridges to Arlington and the Southside to further advance growth outside of downtown. Extreme hubris by our leaders of the 40s and 50s lead to where we are today with our current system.

You are giving way too much credit to the leadership (or lack thereof) of other cities in Florida. I actually had to move away from the Sunshine State to see how utterly innane our "leaders" are. Miami (my hometown,) is well-known for being poorly planned, as well as having a highly corrupt county government. The Miami MetroFail runs in a perfect curve exactly away from two of the three places everybody wants to go: the airport and the beach. The only reason South Florida is remotely embracing transit or density of any kind is because they've run out of room, having filled up their land with mostly suburbia from the ocean to the Everglades. Trust me, if TPTB could drain the 'Glades for more sprawl, they would.

As for Tampa (my unfortunate home for a few years,) a great deal of that metro region is typical of the rest of the state and country: suburbia as far as the eye can see. Moreover, Tampa doesn't even pretend to care what it looks like, and as such, most resembles a strip mall in Ohio, as opposed to the tropics. They've had a light rail plan for years that has yet to amount to anything.

And Orlando is almost unforgivable regarding transit and development. Right at their doorstep is a model of idealized transit: Walt Disney World. And yet, Orlando is frequently a traffic nightmare, and clearly has followed the model of "gated community, mall, strip center, gas station, CVS" to oblivion. That region could have even made more of an impact, being that Orlando was a cow town of basically nothing until Disney supercharged the area. That they chose sprawl is insane.

Outside of South Florida, none of the metropolitan statistical areas in the state are especially progressive, or more so than Jax (and Jacksonville, in my opinion, is a much better, much more beautiful metro than Tampa.) As for South Florida, from the beginning, they were shaped by three distinctions: land area, migration demographics, and desire. The narrow slice of land has forced South Florida at every stage of swamp drain to economize their land plots. As both the 6th burrough of New York and the American capital of Latin America, the demographics are different...and thus, so is the culture from los estados unidos, si? And finally, from the beginning, Miami wanted to be "big," to be "remembered." That desire has shaped the metro. Competence, especially regarding mass transit? Not so much!

[JaxNative68]

i'm not as long winded as some of you, but the to the one's who filled in my incomplete statement of racism killing our city, thanks.  took the word out of my head.

[north miami]

The real racist push for Consolidation was to prevent the City of Jacksonville from having a black mayor and council.  As white people moved out of the old city limits it became evident that African-Americans were about to be or were the majority.

City government was almost totally corrupt at the time too. 

The "powers-that-be" decided that they could outvote the two or three African-American members that would get onto the Council and they could stay in control of the consolidated city and county.  They did too!

In fact, I have often been told by many that the Consolidation push of the 60's was driven in part by racial matters as Dog Walker describes.

I find most Consolidation narratives lacking:
How many are aware that the 'brilliant' Consolidation light bulb is as ancient as 1923? Dreamed up by Telfair Stockton and Patrick Odom,having for it's purpose the combination of duties and functions of certain services within the county...and to curtail expenses by the combiination of county and city offices.Joint resolution passes House and Senate  **Senator J.Turner Butler**      "....giving power to the Legislature to establish,change,and abolish a local government territorially throughout Duval County".In an election the plan failed.

By the 60's "Corruption" became a rally point.