Sunrail deal COULD make Jacksonville the star of the State.

[thelakelander]

The S-Line would be cheaper to implement.  However, due to the destinations directly impacted by each corridor, we'd get more bang for the buck with the streetcar.   For the S-Line to be successful without the CSX link north to the airport, the North BRT corridor would have to be set up to feed it with riders at Gateway Mall/Norwood Plaza.

[Ocklawaha]

Wonder if we get more bang for our buck with streetcar or S line?

Good question Jeffery. The Northern half of the "S" line running from Springfield Yard to Gateway Shopping Center could be Streetcar, or what is now called Rapid Streetcar. The other end of such a line might well be A. Phillip Randolph, or come into the Beaver Street alignment South of the Arlington Expressway and North of Maxwell House.

The "S" is critical to the Port, and the fact that we need to own those tracks. It's not like we have no experience with such a project, check out this photo at Talleyrand back in the day:



The "S" is also the only logical way to get a commuter car or train from Jacksonville Terminal to Yulee, without a few stops in BFE. The politicians that allow that track to come up should be hunted down and Keelhauled.

Lake is concerned about tax dollars on this line, I'm NOT. The reason is the buyout shouldn't be a JTA project, but a JAXPORT project. JTA "could" come alongside, they'd be a Daisy if they do. With both agency's working on this there are double the federal dollars and avenues of finance.

Oh, did I say Double?

Nope, TRIPPLE the dollars, as Jacksonville Commuter Rail will head to the Airport Station in the first phase of the Northside route. Head to a stop at JIA and yet ANOTHER agency with deep pockets and federal taps, jumps in the game. Our Northside line has so much potential as a Terminal road for freight, and passengers, that it should be the easiest of all to buyout, or lease for 99 years. Think people, who is paying for that 55/40 foot channel into the Port? Who paid for those runways at JIA? Those are FEDERAL DOLLARS at work. God knows that not even the Feds are so dumb as to allow our port to remain captive to a single railroad. This is critical and we MUST address it soon - like YESTERDAY!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

The S-Line would be cheaper to implement.  However, due to the destinations directly impacted by each corridor, we'd get more bang for the buck with the streetcar.   For the S-Line to be successful without the CSX link north to the airport, the North BRT corridor would have to be set up to feed it with riders at Gateway Mall/Norwood Plaza.

I give a qualified agree to your statement Lake. If we are talking about raw development, infill, and Billions of new construction for residential, commercial. However if we are talking about massive expansion of the Port, which is our largest economic engine, then the "S" must be completed. It's hard to put a value on docks, cranes and a few million containers, except to say, a lot of that stuff coming into our port will need warehousing, storage, transfer, assembly, final assembly, detailing, cartage, hostling, fuel, oil, etc... The value of that might outstrip the value of the new towers rising along our streetcar line. DO BOTH? Oh the humanity! Apocalyptic news for Tampa, Savannah, Port Everglades, Manatee and all our other "friends".

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Y'all remember the Tampa Airport Authority is planning to build their own Light Rail System into downtown. The only railroad playmate they have? Why CSX of course!

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Thanks for the responses.  I was taking off on Ock's comment that FEC would want grade crossings eliminated, and took it to the limit, of all of them.  The secure crossing arms look pretty formidable, and significantly cheaper than overpasses.  Glad there's a good solution.

[Ocklawaha]

Hey Y'all, just re-read my post of the Municipal Docks Railroad "Back in the day." I did NOT mean to imply that this is an outdated old railroad concept. I do have current photos, on the new TALLEYRAND TERMINAL RAILROAD:



OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Y'all remember the Tampa Airport Authority is planning to build their own Light Rail System into downtown. The only railroad playmate they have? Why CSX of course!

OCKLAWAHA

since when...the only plan the airport has is to provide a light raill connection on their property....

The planned line from the airport to downtown doesn't happen until the line from USF to downtown is up and running....which should be at least 6 years out, assuming the referendum next year passes.

[thelakelander]

The S-Line would be cheaper to implement.  However, due to the destinations directly impacted by each corridor, we'd get more bang for the buck with the streetcar.   For the S-Line to be successful without the CSX link north to the airport, the North BRT corridor would have to be set up to feed it with riders at Gateway Mall/Norwood Plaza.

I give a qualified agree to your statement Lake. If we are talking about raw development, infill, and Billions of new construction for residential, commercial. However if we are talking about massive expansion of the Port, which is our largest economic engine, then the "S" must be completed. It's hard to put a value on docks, cranes and a few million containers, except to say, a lot of that stuff coming into our port will need warehousing, storage, transfer, assembly, final assembly, detailing, cartage, hostling, fuel, oil, etc... The value of that might outstrip the value of the new towers rising along our streetcar line. DO BOTH? Oh the humanity! Apocalyptic news for Tampa, Savannah, Port Everglades, Manatee and all our other "friends".

OCKLAWAHA

I'm specifically talking about mass transit dollars.  I'm not sold on JaxPort projects being funded with local mass transit dollars.  If another pot of money can be found for JaxPort to purchase rail (assuming CSX would want to sell), and mass transit can piggyback off of that, then cool.  

[thelakelander]

Y'all remember the Tampa Airport Authority is planning to build their own Light Rail System into downtown. The only railroad playmate they have? Why CSX of course!

OCKLAWAHA

since when...the only plan the airport has is to provide a light raill connection on their property....

The planned line from the airport to downtown doesn't happen until the line from USF to downtown is up and running....which should be at least 6 years out, assuming the referendum next year passes.

Is this the light rail route drawn on CSX ROW?  Any idea on how those negotiations will go?

[Ocklawaha]

I'm specifically talking about mass transit dollars.  I'm not sold on JaxPort projects being funded with local mass transit dollars.  If another pot of money can be found for JaxPort to purchase rail (assuming CSX would want to sell), and mass transit can piggyback off of that, then cool.  

Lake, exactly! That's what I'm driving at... "Other pots of money". Mass Transit could use all the help it can get in Florida, and if the interests of JPA - JAA and JTA could be combined in some form, we might create a project more $ solid then anyone else ever has. It would be fairly easy to breakdown the components of each authority's contribution, so as you said, Airport isn't buying City Buses, Port isn't running Commuter Trains, and JTA isn't operating the Pilot Boats. However, EACH could shine and make this the project supreme.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Y'all remember the Tampa Airport Authority is planning to build their own Light Rail System into downtown. The only railroad playmate they have? Why CSX of course!

OCKLAWAHA

since when...the only plan the airport has is to provide a light rail connection on their property....

The planned line from the airport to downtown doesn't happen until the line from USF to downtown is up and running....which should be at least 6 years out, assuming the referendum next year passes.

Since 2007 when they announced this:

Light rail proposed to connect airport to business districts
Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Larry Halstead

They won't happen in time for the 2009 Super Bowl, but significant changes are on the drawing board for Tampa International Airport.

A presentation made to the Hillsborough Aviation Authority Thursday proposed a light rail transit system that would connect the airport with the Westshore area initially and be part of an overall transportation system that would connect all of the Tampa Bay area within 20 years. The route alignments would follow the 2005 master plan for TIA and connect the present terminal with the planned north terminal when that is built.

It might cost as much as $235 million for the 3.5-mile light rail system at the airport, but that's still cheaper than building roads.

The interchange currently being built carries a price tag of $220 million. Adding an additional lane to Interstate 275 toward downtown Tampa is costing more than $400 million.

"This (transit system) is congestion proof," said Mayor Pam Iorio. "All the highway improvements are not."

Linking the airport with an overall transportation system only makes sense, said Louis Miller, executive director at TIA. It needs to be able to move lots of people and move them quickly.

"We can't have a mass transit system that doesn't go to the airport," Iorio said.

The planned rail line would run adjacent to Spruce Street and turn north and follow the George Bean Parkway into the airport property. It would pass the existing terminal on the east side and continue north to the as yet unbuilt north terminal, cross Hillsborough Avenue and return.

As part of the study, a mass transit center near International Mall is being considered. At the same time, the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority is gearing up to provide a master transportation plan for the entire region. The light rail plan for TIA is just one small part of relieving some of the traffic congestion in the region.

"There's no other issue as important to our quality of life as this," Iorio said.

TUFSU1, this plan has gone up and down over the last couple of years, gaining miles and cutting back, last one I heard from them (one of their streetcar guys is hooked up with Jacksonville Traction, Inc) The airport was talking that if the tax for rail plan falls apart, they will build the entire link themselves.

The TECO line was expensive because it was built to handle Light Rail Cars, which are quite a bit bigger, faster and more likely to be in a train then the streetcars. However it is possible to mix vintage streetcar, rapid streetcar, vintage interurban, modern streetcar, and Light Rail Transit, as long as the track and catenary is designed for it. I would not encourage Jacksonville to build catenary on the streetcar lines, rather they should go with simple span wire and trolley poles rather then pantographs. Not only for history's sake (if it ain't broke don't fix it) but it's a darn sight cheaper.

Hope I answered your question. http://www.tampaairport.com/airport_business/transitway/TPA_Transitway_Exec_Summary.pdf



OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Ock...the document you reference only talks about preserving the ROW on the airprt property itself.

I can virtually guarantee that the Airport Authority will NOT construct the line to downtown on their own....assuming air travel returns, they are going to have enough trouble floting bonds to build the second terminal (north of the first one).

[thelakelander]

I'm specifically talking about mass transit dollars.  I'm not sold on JaxPort projects being funded with local mass transit dollars.  If another pot of money can be found for JaxPort to purchase rail (assuming CSX would want to sell), and mass transit can piggyback off of that, then cool.  

Lake, exactly! That's what I'm driving at... "Other pots of money". Mass Transit could use all the help it can get in Florida, and if the interests of JPA - JAA and JTA could be combined in some form, we might create a project more $ solid then anyone else ever has. It would be fairly easy to breakdown the components of each authority's contribution, so as you said, Airport isn't buying City Buses, Port isn't running Commuter Trains, and JTA isn't operating the Pilot Boats. However, EACH could shine and make this the project supreme.

OCKLAWAHA

I understand where you are coming from.  However, this is one of those things I'd throw in the "continuing to plan" department, along with commuter rail in general, while implementing a streetcar starter line and aggressively backing enhanced Amtrak service.  An attempt to bring multiple agencies together to agree on one common goal and identify financial resources to pay for it will be a time consuming process.

1. Amtrak (become their biggest cheerleader)
2. Streetcar/S-Line Demo with portion of BJP funds (we already have the money so the ball is in our court)
3. Continue the federal process to plan for commuter rail (ex. JaxPort rail improvements would fall in this camp).

[fsujax]

I like that plan, Lake.

[JeffreyS]

My opinion this should be our action plan. I separated the S line from streetcar and future commuter rail.I will lobby all of my government representatives for it and try to preach it to my fellow Jaxsons.

1. Amtrak (become their biggest cheerleader)
    a. Upgrade Florida wide service especially Miami to Jax corridor. Jax as entry point to the state to take advantage of new HSR programs.
    b. Use as faux commuter service ST. Augustine, Avenues and Downtown.
    c. Amtrak dollars to fund upgrades needed for future commuter rail and current transit center.
2. Streetcar with portion of BJP funds (we already have the money so the ball is in our court)
    a. Connect Downtown and Core Neighborhoods.
    b. Spur infill development and revitalization.
    c. Long single track with passing sections.
    d. Work in conjunction with skyway and bus trolleys for more complete urban system.
3. S line and the Maxwell house extension explore JaxPort's interest in owning it and piggy back transit with it.
    a. Put Jaxports interests first.
    b. Provides a great opportunity to kill two birds with one stone.
4. Continue the federal process to plan for commuter rail.