Sunrail deal COULD make Jacksonville the star of the State.

[Ocklawaha]

When the tears and finger pointing have faded away, the smoke clears off the battlefield, JACKSONVILLE is sitting pretty.

Think about the Tri-Rail financial crash, the death of Sunrail, problems in Lakeland and Winter Haven, and Tampa facing a tax for transit war. Which big city in Florida is NOT playing this game?

Perhaps for the first time in my life, Jacksonville is positioned to step onto the stage and into the bright lights of public attention. Our own JTA and City Hall by virtue of default in the rest of Florida could make just a couple of simple resolutions.

Be it resolved that Jacksonville Supports Amtrak expansion and moving back to Jacksonville Terminal, and we'll be the hub of the Southeast. Amtrak has a plan for 5 trains daily, that's 10 trains if you count arrivals AND departures. Regional Rail is already supported by Southeast Florida, and Jacksonville is called out by name.

Change the BJP transit money rules, restricted to right-of-way purchases only, and add "or streetcar development", and we'll jump into the fast lane so fast Miami, Tampa and Orlando will faint. Meanwhile as our streetcar creeps up from Riverside - Union Station - Water Street - Stadium - Springfield, we'll be the "BIG DOG" of Florida.

Arrange for immediate complete "INCENTIVE" package or authority financing and allow JAXPORT to buy the Norfolk Southern and CSX terminal trackage. This would be the entire route from roughly Maxwell House, North to North Main Street and Yulee. Also all of the track East of Liberty downtown. Lease back the operation to a shortline carrier, which would have the effect of giving our shipping terminal customers the choice of 3 railroads. Greatly enhancing the attractiveness of our port.

Once this is done, and it should be done NOW, we can operate commuter or light rail all the way, on our own tracks, and our own rules, all the way from downtown to the airport.

Florida East Coast is NOT CSX, and a commuter rail deal on the FEC might be a lot easier, this would set us up for service. We should already be talking to them.

Love it or Hate It, the time has come for Immediate Skyway Expansion from downtown to the Stadium, San Marco and Riverside. Why? Because if we get it on paper, the administration will fund it. It's simple the Skyway is a "type" of rail, MONORAIL.

Last but not least, offer Orlando a hand with Commuter Rail. Let's talk to CSX about the entire railroad from Beaver Street, South to Auburndale. Lease this railroad back to a shortline operator such as Talleyrand Terminal, Watco, First Coast, Rail America or another. It could also be sold to Amtrak, as they have expressed an interest in extending the Northeast Corridor to Florida. If it's in public hands then the rules change.

Representative Brown, Mica, Crenshaw etc... It's time we meet and kick our city ahead of the pack. No the death of Sunrail doesn't spell the Death of Jacksonville Rail, indeed it might be just the opposite.



OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Interesting points.  But wouldn't the same liability issues that scuttled SunRail be a problem here?  And, if you can broaden the use of BJP Transit money away from right-of-way, include a way to fund the relocation of Amtrak to Union Terminal.  As I understand it, Amtrak does not have the money for the relocation, but is willing to do so, if someone else pays.  Unless this picture changed with the Stimulus money?

[thelakelander]

Where Sunrail really impacts us is on the liability issue with CSX and State/Federal funding.  Unless, Jax raises taxes (something that the public would be against right now) or comes up with an off-the-wall financing plan, big ticket items like commuter rail down to St. Augustine or buying CSX corridors can't be done without State or Federal help.  I'd keep things simple, regardless of where Sunrail stands. 

1. Support Amtrak's expansion plans. 

Money given to Amtrak also allows them to use funds to establish new intercity corridors.  Those new corridors will need stations.  If we can help South Florida get the FEC corridor on the list, there is a decent chance that some of those funds can be used to build a facility at the JTC.

2. BJP funds for streetcar or S-Line project

Both of these are options we can move forward on and afford without Federal, State or CSX help.  Decide what starter segment will be the most successful and do what's necessary to make it reality at a local level.  In the meantime, we can still push/plan for those big ticket items so we'll be in position to move forward when the right opportunity comes along.

So in short, keep it simple, cheap and logical by starting small and working your way up.  A locally financed 4 or 5 mile line connecting several destinations and urban neighborhoods, in less than 3-5 years, is better than waiting 20 years for a federal funded 30 mile line stretching into the burbs. Don't view or plan with federal funding as a necessary first step component.  Use local dollars to speed up the overall implementation process and take advantage of Amtrak to provide connections with outlying suburban areas.

[brainstormer]

Very well written, Lake.  I would support both the Amtrak and small starter line funded by local dollars.  Let's get on this and begin to prove to the federal government and state that we are serious about transit growth, and then in the future we will have a better shot of getting money we need to expand.  This could be what we need to put the contractors back to work and make the local economy stronger.

[FayeforCure]

Florida East Coast is NOT CSX, and a commuter rail deal on the FEC might be a lot easier, this would set us up for service. We should already be talking to them.

I fully agree.

[thelakelander]

Make sure to push for Amtrak on the FEC corridor before investing a dime in commuter rail along that stretch.  They'll have to make many of the same capacity improvements we'll need for commuter rail.  We might as well piggyback off of their stimulus dollars and increased federal funding.

[Ocklawaha]

FLORIDA EAST COAST RY - BACK IN THE DAYS OF GLORY (Been there - Done that)

Funny, but all three starter Commuter Rail Routes in Jacksonville, have peculiar stories behind them. NORTH? Should be purchased by JAXPORT and the CITY OF JACKSONVILLE for the Port. Southeast, is along the Florida East Coast which already has signed agreements with Amtrak. Just two local trains out of 5 between Miami and Jacksonville and (NEW YORK) in the nighttime, would clear Jacksonville Terminal inbound early in the morning. While the day trains could return in the late afternoon and head for Miami.The line on the Southwest, IE: US 17 and Orange Park/Green Cove Springs, could end up in the hands of the City, State or Amtrak itself.  Next with cheering section of the local residents, we should shoot for schedules already tested on these same railroad tracks.


A little Computer Play, shows the West Coast Champion, heading towards Orlando and Tampa in the rolling hills around Crescent City. (You better believe I rode it - it's on the cover of one of my books!)

In the old days of the FEC, "HAVANA SPECIAL" or "LOCAL EXPRESS" daily, there were stops in South Jacksonville near Atlantic, also Bowden, Sunbeam, Bayard, Greenland, etc... at short platform, flag stops. There is no reason why we can't recreate those days with Amtrak.


Schedule of Florida East Coast's Final Passenger Train.

Any train leaving the Miami area at 11:00 pm through Midnight or even 1 am, would roll through JAX at 6 - 8 am, Northbound, depending on how many local stops it made. In other words, Florida is the ideal length to stretch a schedule by 3 or 4 hours and still attract customers. This would make the inbound night trains, commuter rail for Jacksonville. Even better, any train leaving Jacksonville in the early AM hours such as 5 - 6 AM would make NYC the same day. The same could be true of night trains leaving Jacksonville Southbound, at the 4 - 6 hours PM which would make Miami by Midnight.


Somewhere North of Main Street Jacksonville, headed our way, a Seaboard Streamliner...before Amtrak when the Line along North Main was still THE route of the Silver Meteor and Silver Star, Flagship trains. (Yes THIS one Too, I was there...)

I honestly think that SUNRAIL might have dealt us a hand from GOD! That we might now be in the drivers seat. Have at it y'all, GOD, a bottle of "Sailor Jerry Rum", my Birthday and positive thought, combine to bring out the best in the old hippie! We could well be entering a new golden age of the railroads, and in that case our city is on top of the heap!... GO JACKSONVILLE! Rather then disaster, we may have struck gold with the brain dead decisions out of Tallahassee, if so we might be in the unique position of carrying Orlando and Tampa to the Commuter Rail Alter! Truth is stranger then fiction!

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Agreed, FECRR is not CSX, and may be more flexible in dealing with liability issues.  History in dealing with FECRR does not tell us much, because they are under new management - so the days of resisting any passenger service may be over.  Or not.  We won't know until those that might run a Commuter Rail line talk with them.

Where Sunrail really impacts us is on the liability issue with CSX and State/Federal funding.

I do not understand what the Liability issue has to do with the funding source, however.  My guess is that CSX would have wanted those protections (as they see it) regardless of who's footing the bill for the commuter trains on their tracks.

Or did I read that wrong, Lake, and you are not linking, but listing two issues: (a) Liability, and (b) need for State/Federal funding?

[Ocklawaha]

Or did I read that wrong, Lake, and you are not linking, but listing two issues: (a) Liability, and (b) need for State/Federal funding?

Both the Florida East Coast and the Norfolk Southern have gone on PUBLIC RECORD as stating that they will consider ANY passenger service that helps the bottom line of the Company. Read that as capacity expansion, signal improvements, track upgrades and most important, elimination of grade crossings.

My professional opinion is that Florida East Coast has not been considered for Amtrak prior to the year 2000, as they were not a member railroad that received passenger train relief from Amtrak in 1971. As a result, our projections of traffic on the FEC are based on years of freight traffic, hardly the key one would want to use. A simple look at the FEC mainline should tell ANY professional railroader that on tangent sections, there is no reason why 100-120 MPH couldn't be achieved without modification. This is some of the most "perfect" track in the nation.

Back to the Port. Giving FEC access to our northside port terminals, would set off a powder keg of unknown proportions. Florida East Coast and Norfolk Southern are tight buddies in our market, I can see where both might become major players in the City of Jacksonville. In fact a neutral terminal company would be an amazing economic engine in Jacksonville. Hundreds of blue chip, if not thousands of blue chip corporations, would suddenly consider Jacksonville rather then New York, Philadelphia, Norfolk, Savannah, etc... Do the math people, THREE RAILROADS where the others only have one or two? Sure we win! We simply MUST BUY the Springfield - Yulee line of the CSX and rebuild the "S" line downtown.
OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Where Sunrail really impacts us is on the liability issue with CSX and State/Federal funding.

I do not understand what the Liability issue has to do with the funding source, however.  My guess is that CSX would have wanted those protections (as they see it) regardless of who's footing the bill for the commuter trains on their tracks.

Or did I read that wrong, Lake, and you are not linking, but listing two issues: (a) Liability, and (b) need for State/Federal funding?

Two separate issues, both impacted by Sunrail politics.

1. CSX liability issue - Directly impacts potential deals with all commuter rail corridors planned to use CSX lines.  In short, that's every corridor expect the FEC.  So either the state, Jax, etc. accepts the liability deal that it would not with Sunrail, or else no commuter rail on CSX owned lines.

2. State/Federal funding - Its no secret this state is anti rail.  A commuter rail line between DT and St. Augustine will not be cheap.  Buying CSX rail in the Northside to the port won't be cheap or affordable to the local community either without raising taxes.  Both will require state and federal help.  Dealing with either to help finance rail in Jacksonville will take a few years, if not a decade.

[Charles Hunter]

Thanks for clarifying, but is there any indication that FEC would not want the same liability protections that CSX wanted?  Ock says the FEC is willing to accept any passenger deal that will help their (FEC's) bottom line (a reasonable position to have).  Wouldn't liability protection be a major component of that? 

Also, eliminating grade crossings would add hundreds of millions to the cost of implementing Commuter Rail along the FEC.  It's one thing to add a few passing sidings (reasonably cited on this forum as a way to get Commuter Rail quickly and cheaply), quite another to build overpasses at all the existing grade crossings.  Now, I grant, it would be possible to close some crossings where they are closely spaced - like in San Marco - but, for a Jax - St. Augustine run, that would mean:
River Oaks, close it, since the residents want it closed
St. Augustine Road
Emerson
Reba - close it, they have alternatives, and it is close to the FEC yards
University and Baymeadows already overpass FEC,
Sunbeam
Shad
Mussells Acres (provides alternate access to Avenues Walk, north of the new overpass, but a possible closure)
Cedar - possible closure they could use the new Avenues Walk overpass
Greenland
Old St. Augustine
Racetrack
CR210 (plans are underway for this)
Pine Island (about 5 miles north of:)
International Golf Pkwy
then you start getting into streets in the St. Augustine area,
Big Oak Rd. and 5th St. (both near the Airport)
Lewis Speedway (which serves the St. Johns Co. gov't complex)
SR16 - then it depends on where your station is.

In Southbank/San Marco, Flagler is already closed, and they will close Gary as part of the rebuild of I-95; but what about Prudential, San Marco, Nira, Naldo, Hendricks, Landon, and Atlantic?  Which of those get closed, and which get very expensive (considering the urban fabric around them) overpasses?  Remember that opposition to "ugly" overpasses was part of what killed Atlantic/University, Beach/University, and Baymeadows/Southside - and none of those areas are San Marco.

I count around a dozen new overpasses, and four closures, not counting the Southbank/San Marco or in-town St. Augustine areas.  At $50+ million each, that adds $600 million (and more) to the cost of FEC Commuter Rail.  Now, if a hypothetical deal with FEC would allow these to be phased over time - a long time - the financial impact can be spread out over decades.

[JeffreyS]

Would the at grade crossings have tobe all of them? I would imagine the number is negociable.

[thelakelander]

Every crossing would not have to be grade separated.  There's still a ton of major highways in South Florida that don't have overpasses for Tri-Rail and it works just fine.  Anyway, commuter rail on the FEC would not be cheap to implement.  All the more reasons to concentrate first on:

A. Amtrak Corridor service that includes the return of passenger service on the FEC corridor and to New Orleans.  Many of the issues concerning capacity issues with FEC will have to be addressed for Amtrak as well.  Let's us their stimulus dollars and increased funding, then piggyback commuter rail at a later date.

B. BJP funds to either implement a streetcar corridor or S-Line demonstration project.

These are things that can be done right now while still planning for commuter rail and setting ourselves up for federal help.

[Ocklawaha]

Jax - St. Augustine run, that would mean:
River Oaks, close it, since the residents want it closed
St. Augustine Road
Emerson
Reba - close it, they have alternatives, and it is close to the FEC yards
University and Baymeadows already overpass FEC,
Sunbeam
Shad
Mussells Acres (provides alternate access to Avenues Walk, north of the new overpass, but a possible closure)
Cedar - possible closure they could use the new Avenues Walk overpass
Greenland
Old St. Augustine
Racetrack
CR210 (plans are underway for this)
Pine Island (about 5 miles north of:)
International Golf Pkwy
then you start getting into streets in the St. Augustine area,
Big Oak Rd. and 5th St. (both near the Airport)
Lewis Speedway (which serves the St. Johns Co. gov't complex)
SR16 - then it depends on where your station is.

In Southbank/San Marco, Flagler is already closed, and they will close Gary as part of the rebuild of I-95; but what about Prudential, San Marco, Nira, Naldo, Hendricks, Landon, and Atlantic?  Which of those get closed, and which get very expensive (considering the urban fabric around them) overpasses?  Remember that opposition to "ugly" overpasses was part of what killed Atlantic/University, Beach/University, and Baymeadows/Southside - and none of those areas are San Marco.

I count around a dozen new overpasses, and four closures, not counting the Southbank/San Marco or in-town St. Augustine areas.  At $50+ million each, that adds $600 million (and more) to the cost of FEC Commuter Rail.  Now, if a hypothetical deal with FEC would allow these to be phased over time - a long time - the financial impact can be spread out over decades.

Certainly FEC would love to have them all closed or overpassed, but they are realists too. They know there is a finite amount of money to be spent. But it's still a different game with FEC then with CSX:

FEC is a maverick operation, it has been since the 1960's strike and has rarely followed the industry trends. In fact the FEC may be the most novel railroad operation in the United States. I don't care what the industry does, DON'T ever "expect" the FEC to follow... LEAD - YES, FOLLOW? NEVER!

I spoke with a couple of their Vice Presidents fairly recently, and they talked about the roads on the bounds of Bowden Yard, Sunbeam and Racetrack? They certainly didn't give me a list of all crossings.

There is another factor on the FEC, AMTRAK is the wild card. How can you operate a serious passenger service into Florida and miss the largest Tourist Market IN THE ENTIRE WORLD? Answer? YOU CAN'T, and Amtrak knows it. If the Mica, Brown, JTA and COJ, get in this and push like hell, most of the improvements might be done with Amtraks dollars.

There are lots of other solutions to those other roads, for example on the DART lines in Dallas, each crossing has 4 gates, one on each corner of the street and railroad, two per side. When the gates are lowered, the crossing is completely blocked - no way to drive through or around.

OR

A new device called "StopGate" has been installed  in Santa Clara, California (on a light rail system), as well as several other locations. This system resembles a fortified version of a standard crossing gate, with two larger arms blocking the entire width of the roadway and locking into a securing device on the side of the road opposite the gate pivot mechanism. The gate arms are reinforced with high-strength steel cable, which helps the gate absorb the impact of a vehicle attempting to crash through the gate. The manufacturer claims that the StopGate can arrest a 2,000 kg (4,400 lb) truck within 13 feet. Already the system has been tested at the Madison crossing, when the system stopped a truck while a Wisconsin and Southern Railroad train was in the crossing.

OR

The new devices are called "delineators" consisting of a series of flexible cylinders that raise vertically out of vertical tubes in the pavement when the crossing signal is activated. The delineators are designed so that they will not be broken and will not damage vehicles if they are hit, allowing vehicles to exit the level crossing if they are already within it when the gates are activated. The test period for the new barrier began on 5 December 2007, and will run for a period of 17 months.

The demands made by the railroad will also differ according to the scheduling. FEC traffic has long had a very early AM Southbound and evening PM Northbound flow. What this will mean is any commuter car leaving St. Augustine in the AM will be running counter to the normal flow. In fact unless Amtrak gets real creative, the two trains we have now are also Southbound in the AM and Northbound in the PM, Also counter to the flow of any commuter rail car. However, FEC is a racetrack, so fairly short sidings could be built for scheduled meets delaying the Commuter Train for a few seconds while Amtrak or FEC "Hotshots" blast past.

We will not add our trains to the FEC, rather the FEC will be part of us, working hand in hand with the COJ to make this happen. Maverick? You bet!

Liability is the great unknown, the Florida East Coast runs many times the container and piggyback trains then the CSX down state, but it doesn't carry a lot of tonnage. It's not traffic, rather it's the tonnage that destroys the track and runs up the bill. Again, we couldn't hope for a better partner.


OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

Wonder if we get more bang for our buck with streetcar or S line?