Rail in Jacksonville: Getting Started Immediately

[mtraininjax]

If you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.

YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.

[mtraininjax]

It is not about trying to prove that give up their cars. Its about improving the region's quality of life by offering reliable transportation choices and being a catalyst for game changing economic development.

Wonderful point! Give people the options with Trolley buses that use sales taxes collected from fuel to see if people will give up their cars and use "reliable transportation choices", before wasting taxpayer dollars on rail, which the Skyway, has proven has not worked. Tolleys are purchased and in use and successful in SOME areas, and not so in others. JTA learn from these issues and use trolleys and "reliable transporation choices" in areas that need them. You can't paint the entire RTC in rail. If you can prove you link people together with buses, it would be conceivable that rail would warrant more concern, when and IF the population density warranted it.

Where is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.

[Charles Hunter]

If you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.

YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.

You still don't get that public transit is a service provided by the government that DOES NOT MAKE A PROFIT.  Libraries don't make a profit, and only a small percentage of the population use them.  The Fire Service does not make a profit, and not everyone uses them.  But, because transit charges its customers to recover a portion of its costs, and other public services do not, transit gets blasted for "not making a profit."  (And, yes, I know that Rescue charges for its calls, but the Fire side does not, and I would bet that even with the charges, Rescue does not make a profit for the City.)

[Shwaz]

Wonderful point! Give people the options with Trolley buses that use sales taxes collected from fuel to see if people will give up their cars and use "reliable transportation choices", before wasting taxpayer dollars on rail, which the Skyway, has proven has not worked. Tolleys are purchased and in use and successful in SOME areas, and not so in others. JTA learn from these issues and use trolleys and "reliable transporation choices" in areas that need them. You can't paint the entire RTC in rail. If you can prove you link people together with buses, it would be conceivable that rail would warrant more concern, when and IF the population density warranted it.

Where is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.

So you're logic is Not to attempt any rail, skyway, trolley, street car because it's possible that it will not be an overwhelming success. Jax should just sit back and watch federal money go to other cities all around us.

It's obvious you're ultra-conservative and you're against all this government spending but the reality is, it's happening. Speaking negatively on a forum that's obviously pro new transportation projects and rail in particular isn't going to change that. Why not run a new line for the mtrain right out of metrojacksonville and into to letter to your elected officials. RTFO

[thelakelander]

Where is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.

Here are a few spots. 

DT - Orange Park/Fleming Island
Clay has the longest commute times in the state.  Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city.  A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways.  If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.

DT-Southside-St. Augustine
This corridor includes some of the region's most rapidly growing areas.  Once the Overland Bridge replacement and JTB interchange projects kick off, its really going to be a mess.  Also, with DT and St. Augustine's historic district as the end points, it is one of the few bi-directional regional lines.  Again, we could run a bus, but it will be sitting in traffic with everyone else.

Inner City Jax
Not so much for traffic congestion, but for spurring infill economic development where public infrastructure already exists by connecting dense residential neighborhoods with the CBD and various cultural attractions.  This could be an investment that helps slow down the rate of sprawl by turning the urban core into a viable living alternative centered around walkability and sustainable development.  Unfortunately, buses simply don't spur economic development like rail-based transit does.

[cline]

DT - Orange Park/Fleming Island
Clay has the longest commute times in the state.  Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city.  A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways.  If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.

I feel that if we had to choose one rail starter line, this would be ideal.  Since this area is already so congested ridership has the potential to be huge.  And if the starter line is successful, it would be easy to justify expanding the system into the other areas - just like what Charlotte did with the Blue Line.

[civil42806]

DT - Orange Park/Fleming Island
Clay has the longest commute times in the state.  Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city.  A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways.  If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.

I feel that if we had to choose one rail starter line, this would be ideal.  Since this area is already so congested ridership has the potential to be huge.  And if the starter line is successful, it would be easy to justify expanding the system into the other areas - just like what Charlotte did with the Blue Line.

The problem with this idea, is that the underlying assumption is that everyone in clay is trying to get downtown.  Of course this isn't true very few are heading that way.  We get into the problem again, there is no central area in this city that people are trying to get to, its spread all over.  If you have a major feeder line, fine, but you have the supporting structure whether it be buses, trams or horse and buggy to get people to where they want to go.  So far you can't beat the car in this town

[thelakelander]

If you have a major feeder line, fine, but you have the supporting structure whether it be buses, trams or horse and buggy to get people to where they want to go.  So far you can't beat the car in this town.

Mass transit should be viewed as an alternative travel option.  At the end of the day, Jacksonville won't remain economically healthy by relying on cars and highways alone, for its transportation needs.  Nevertheless, I agree a support structure feeding transit spines must be in place for any type of transit to be successful.

[Shwaz]

The problem with this idea, is that the underlying assumption is that everyone in clay is trying to get downtown.  Of course this isn't true very few are heading that way

It's not like there would only be 2 stations though, 1 in Greencove and 1 downtown. People work all along the Roosevelt corridor and could get off where they need to between the 2 end destinations.

[cline]

It's not like there would only be 2 stations though, 1 in Greencove and 1 downtown. People work all along the Roosevelt cooridor and could get off where they need to between the 2 end destinations.

Exactly.  NAS JAX is a huge employment center that could be served by a line such as this.

[thelakelander]

Along that line, destinations could include:

Fleming Island
Orange Park
Wells Road
NAS JAX
Roosevelt Square
FCCJ Kent
Edgewood Avenue/Murray Hill/Avondale
King Street (Park & King, St. Vincents via shuttle)

At those locations, you could have coordinated bus service that takes riders into Westside area not located along the rail corridor.

[JeffreyS]

If you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.

YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.

At first I though ok go though and pull all of the evidence submited here. Before I did it occurred to me I would be making a comment on this sight therfor you couldn't be swayed by this evidence because you would be afraid of "drinking the Kool Aid". 
I am hoping that was just your lame attempt at avoiding the work of looking here(it is easy don't be afraid) or just a way of deflecting the comment.
In hopes that you really do not believe we can't have discussions here where it is OK to consider what others post and site here is an easy link to one of this weeks articles that speaks to your need for proof. ( I do get the paradox of proving something in the future when you prove it, it is in the past).
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4792.0.html
I know you want Jax to reallocate the 100mil to education so you may want to stay away from the profitable argument with public services.

[ProjectMaximus]

unless, of course, he were to argue that a good school system attracts more families, produces smarter generations of students, and attracts bigger companies. Of course, those future generations will continue to leave the city unless quality of life improves...which is why we can't neglect proper planning. If Jax doesn't have efficient mass transit in place in 25 years, this whole metropolitan area is screwed. All of these issues go hand in hand and we can't only focus on one problem.

Anyway, this is my last attempt to speak to mtrain. I admire the patience of Lake, and some others, to try to convert all of our faithful citizens but I just don't have that in me. Mtrain, if buses could do what fixed rail does for a cheaper price tag, then I would be in your camp. Let's make use of what we have.* But you're missing a number of points, the primary one being that rail is a catalyst for millions of dollars of development that buses can not match. If it appears that a commuter rail system in this region and a streetcar system in the urban area will not yield those same investments that we've witnessed in so many other cities in the US, then I will quickly withdraw my support. But at the moment, I am quite optimistic. If you want to keep arguing, mtrain, then at least debate the main points brought up. There is plenty of room to go back and forth. But if you choose to ignore the crux of our argument, then it just goes nowhere.

*although it could be proven that we already have the foundation for a commuter rail system in place even more so than we have the building blocks for an efficient bus system. This was demonstrated when commuter rail costs came out lower than the price tag for JTA's original BRT design.